Supporting new players

[darksythe]

Well gentlemen the time is coming where we may very well see a influx of new players in to the genre of submarine/naval warfare.

Now it will be inevitable that all these new players will be coming on here, and asking all kinds of questions in a manner probably not usually used by those of us who have the patience for this type of simulation.

IMHO we need to start getting ready for this stuff now so that we arent losing our heads when we get bombarded by questions that have been asked and answered previously, or that we would consider common knowledge.

How can we get ready to do this you may ask?
Invest in a stock of sedatives. LOL

All and all im looking forward to new players maybe the subsim genre will will awaken from her slumber :zzz:

[Skorn]

All and all im looking forward to new players maybe the subsim genre will will awaken from her slumber :zzz:

Amen to that, people need to take advantage of this spectacular game that has been made available to us. Just need to find those people somehow that have the interest :hmm:

[Bellman]

:sunny: :lol:

CNO - That was a very nicely weighted, delicate and finessed..........................plug. :|\

Although not for everyone the fleets, of which IMO, the Seawolves is the finest provide excellent supportive training,
by some first rate Officers'.

I would suggest any newcommer gets fully familiar first with basic game mechanics before carefully looking at all the
options (Fleet or otherwise) open to them for play.

A promotion intensive Fleet environment can feed the 'green' sprites into the mouths of sharks.
Just beware - not many but certainly there. You have been warned. :yep:

[darksythe]

Ok since were going to turn my well intetioned thread into a feeding ground for the virtual fleets out there.(Thank you bellman) Ill just got ahead and plug in the VMC Navy.
Are you looking for a virtual fleet where realism is key?
Do you want to feel as though your involved in a conflict on a global scale?
One that employs not only naval but air and ground assets.
If you answered yes to any of the above questions then your looking for the VMC Navy come join us today.
www.vmcnavy.net
If asked tell em Capt Mike "DarkSythe" Young sent ya.

About the VMC.

The Virtual Military Command was established in 1992 as the Submariners. This was a group that conducted missions offline using only a submarine simulator.

A group of members then decided it was prudent to expand from just a submarine community to that of a Virtual Fleet. In 1998 the Virtual Naval Command was born. We continued on this path for a couple of more years. At one point other groups came to be:
The Virtual Air Mobility Command, a group that provided military transport services.
The Virtual Air Force Command, a group that conducted US Air Force Operations.
The Virtual United States Marines, a special forces marine recon unit.
The Virtual Army Command, a group of special operations and tank warfare community.

It was the Joint Chiefs of staff of these communities who strived to work together towards common goals, however there was no common command authority. On April 10, 2000 the Virtual Military Command Navy was created. This was a merger of all the above groups.

The fleet has been moving forward at a steady pace. With the organization expanding to online participation, the organization continues to grow. The fleet now conducts about 25 % of it's operations live. We are looking forward to raising this percentage to an equal 50/50 ratio. Offline operation are still a key aspect to the perspective member.

[goldorak]

All and all im looking forward to new players maybe the subsim genre will will awaken from her slumber :zzz:


Why subsim ?
DW is about Naval Warfare :rock:

[Ula Jolly]

Wait, I have been away for quite some time... :D What happened? Why will there be a hoard of new players (can I adopt one?! Oooh, ooh, can I name one?!)? :-j

[darksythe]

All and all im looking forward to new players maybe the subsim genre will will awaken from her slumber :zzz:


Why subsim ?
DW is about Naval Warfare :rock:
Why???? Because im a Bubblehead and were somewhat one minded when it comes to anything naval. Because DW's roots are SC Sub Command and it was all about subs. and im a pretentious bastige :lol:

[darksythe]

Wait, I have been away for quite some time... :D What happened? Why will there be a hoard of new players (can I adopt one?! Oooh, ooh, can I name one?!)? :-j

Not sure how long youve been away but we should be getting new players because DW is going retail :up:

[goldorak]

Why???? Because im a Bubblehead and were somewhat one minded when it comes to anything naval. Because DW's roots are SC Sub Command and it was all about subs. and im a pretentious bastige :lol:

:rotfl: Times change, make way for the surface and air units :rock:
Submariners beware :arrgh!:

[Bellman]

:rotfl:

''Times change, make way for the surface and air units. :rock: Submariners beware :arrgh!: ''

You surfs (serfs) and airheads are very welcome below the surface anytime - happy to make way down here for you. :lol:
We Bubbleheads are a very friendly bunch. :arrgh!: :hulk:

We serve shrimps - bring your own beer (and oxygen) :o :huh: :yep:

[Skorn]

:sunny: :lol:

CNO - That was a very nicely weighted, delicate and finessed..........................plug. :|\

Although not for everyone the fleets, of which IMO, the Seawolves is the finest provide excellent supportive training,
by some first rate Officers'.

I would suggest any newcommer gets fully familiar first with basic game mechanics before carefully looking at all the
options (Fleet or otherwise) open to them for play.

A promotion intensive Fleet environment can feed the 'green' sprites into the mouths of sharks.
Just beware - not many but certainly there. You have been warned. :yep:

Heh, that wasn't supposed to be a recruiting plug for the SW exactly. I know that not everybody wants to be in a fleet, and if they do I'm sure they will do their research and pick the one that suits them best. This isn't a very popular genre among gamers, and to keep it alive we need the community to be strong and as big as we can get it. That's really all I was aiming for on that one :arrgh!: . As long as people are playing I'm happy :up:
Thank you though :rock:

[darksythe]

:rotfl:

''Times change, make way for the surface and air units. :rock: Submariners beware :arrgh!: ''

You surfs (serfs) and airheads are very welcome below the surface anytime - happy to make way down here for you. :lol:
We Bubbleheads are a very friendly bunch. :arrgh!: :hulk:

We serve shrimps - bring your own beer (and oxygen) :o :huh: :yep:

Hehehe yes surfs beware bellman speaks the truth. :up: we do not take kindly to others trying to play in our swimming pool!! :ping: :stare: :hulk: :arrgh!:

[Bograt]

The Virtual Military Command was established in 1992 as the Submariners. This was a group that conducted missions offline using only a submarine simulator.


Are there virtual mess dues? ;)

[OneShot]

Ah... Bubbleheads ... great targets, at least as long as they dont try to be the Naval Equivalent of SAM Launchers. In that case ... well I guess you get my drift. And thanks for the invitation, but I prefer to stay high up and let my brain rot by onboard oxygen while enjoying the fine view ... which is quite the opposite to being 600ft underwater and letting rot my brain by onboard oxygen without a spectacular view.

Seriously tho, I concur with Skorn ... as long as people are happy playing DW, who cares if they belong to a fleet or not, as long as they are available to play with or against.

[Bellman]

:lol: OneShot - Bubblehead brains rot from alcohol, boredom on Barrier Patrol, that incessant sonar pinging sound
.............................. and the absence of women.:down:

Airheads - just get too much of everything !

On the thread 'Line of sight' the OT theme is turning to scenario design for newcomers and help/advice/training. :yep:

[Molon Labe]

:lol: OneShot - Bubblehead brains rot from alcohol, boredom on Barrier Patrol, that incessant sonar pinging sound
.............................. and the absence of women.:down:

Airheads - just get too much of everything !

On the thread 'Line of sight' the OT theme is turning to scenario design for newcomers and help/advice/training. :yep:

That's why we're so glad when Mercedes graces us with her presence! :sunny:

[Jamie]

Thanks for creating this thread "darksythe", you're absolutely right!

The general consensus from most people who have bought DW during our "direct sale" phase is that MP is where the game truly shows its potential. Using voice-over-IP and employing team based tactics is really quite a bit of fun and we're really happy with how it turned out.

I think the "noobies" are also going to enjoy this collaborative experience as well, but you guys are going to have to help them with the "near vertical" learning curve that you all had to overcome at some point with DW, SC, or even all the way back with 688. Modern naval combat is a tough nut to crack, but once you've mastered the basics it is really a rewarding experience. One of the best characterizations of DW that I think is a good metaphor to impart upon players is:

"Dangerous Water is a hi-tech Rashomon... Playing means interpreting data from various sensors. Eventually, you get enough information that you can deduce what you're looking at, or more often, what you're hearing."

If you guys want to help along the new players the best way is to start with the NAV screen and explain to them any sensors contacts that are created will always come back to the NAV. The sensors are the eyes and ears which help the brain (the NAV) discern what it is their looking at or listening to...

Once they grasp that, the rest of the game is just learning how to use those "new-fangled" stations effectively (which is also quite an achievement and rewarding in and of itself)...

We're really excited with the way that the retail deal is proceeding and we're guardedly optimistic about the potential of DW bringing in a host of new bubbleheads, flyboys, and skimmers for your own personal destruction... err, I mean, enjoyment. :P

That's my opinion... for what it's worth. ;)

[FERdeBOER]

I think that one suggestion we can do for the newbies is that, first, (of course after trying all platforms), they would have to focus on one platform untill they get used to it.

After that, changing to another platform will be easier (more or less hard, depending which one), as the basics are very similar.

Maybe recommend something like: if you want a sub, start with the 688i; if you want to fly, start with the Seahawk.

If you want the surface-FFG... well... :hmm: ... eeer... :rotfl:

[darksythe]

Thanks for creating this thread "darksythe", you're absolutely right!


Always glad to help :)

[MaHuJa]

If you want the surface-FFG... well... :hmm: ... eeer... :rotfl:

Perhaps start with the chopper, which you'll later be handling on remote control.



But... starting with the 688i? Why do you recommend that?

Compared to the 688i, the seawolf is more silent, has better sensors, higher top speed, higher sensor washout speeds... And should therefore be easier to get something done with?

The one place where the 688i 'shines' is missile attacks using the vls.

[Bellman]

I think that sub starters will be advised to choose the Kilo:-

1. The BB & NB dispays are more intuative. Masters are a synch.
2. No TA compexity.
3. Fast reloads.
4. Lurking tactics more closely match WW2 sim experience.
5. Clear and simplified interphase.

Dived her in the new Demo - she's a beut - newbie 'way to go.'

[LuftWolf]

I always thought the Kilo was the way to go for new players as well, especially because missions designed around the Kilo tend to be more straightforward affairs. And, the Kilo interfaces look and behave more simply than other subs.

The SeaWolf interfaces can be quite intimidating, and it definately presents a much greater challenge to learn. New players aren't going to know the difference between the Kilo Conformal and the TB-29 in terms of their effectiveness until they play the game a lot, and by that time they should have figured out some of the workings.

But having to worry about the WAA and the extra CM and torpedo panels in firecontrol and the whole SW presentation is a lot to ask, I believe.

Kilo+"sink that ship" missions for newbies are definately the way to go.

[FERdeBOER]

All right, the Kilo then. :up:

Was an idea, I agree maybe the Kilo would be less hard-learning than the others...

About the seawolf... its interface is not very kind. Beautifull, futuristic, but you can't see all the options at a time and can lost the newbies.

[goldorak]

I think that sub starters will be advised to choose the Kilo:-

1. The BB & NB dispays are more intuative. Masters are a synch.
2. No TA compexity.
3. Fast reloads.
4. Lurking tactics more closely match WW2 sim experience.
5. Clear and simplified interphase.

Dived her in the new Demo - she's a beut - newbie 'way to go.'


I agree in part, learning the sonar in a contact heavy environment is definetly more easy on russian subs (kilo or akula) which give the newbie a situational awareness that is not immediate on the american subs.
For newbies : kilo or akula for sonar, even if i prefer the akula because the lack of ta on the kilo can be dangerous in the hands of a newbie (forgets to manoveur constantly to check baffles and you are dead).

[Bellman]

:sunny: Good point - but a 'first' look I think: A brief intro on the Kilo before moving on to the Akula
and then going in 'harms way.'

The strern baffle manouvering is there with the Kilo but there is, I agree, a need not to delay too long
in getting to grips with manouvering for clearing the prow baffle, eliminating ghost contacts, merging,
and beaming(etc) for manual TMA(later)

Perhaps a run through my SVAK (Sonar Visual Aid Kit) on Bills site may help them with basic TA proceedures.
The scenario and explanation are enough - kit not required.

Then to the SW. Now, how I wish I was starting my bubblehead career now in DW 1.02. I started in SC
in a SW only moving on to the Ak and in DW to the Kilo. Yes - the wrong way but the 'available' one at the time.
The learners progress is smoothed now Kilo-Ak-SW IMO.
Getting aboard the Ak also opens the learner at an early stage to the tactical perspectives/ potential of stand-off missiles.

The SW brings some more complexity in the game interphase but that is more than compensated for by its
TA performance and WAA rapid location, performance, etc, etc ...
Familiarity with all the subs is vital as choice remains horses for courses.

[LuftWolf]

And that's another thing, we *really* don't want the noobe to get a WAA addiction, it may seriously limit his ability to develop skills for the other platforms.

In terms of the Kilo, it is important to remember that the missions also make the difficulty level, and not just the platform. The Kilo is not really designed for ASW, so the focus for beginners in the Kilo should be ASUW, starting with basic "convoy raiding."

I think an enterprising group of scenario designers could create a progression of missions.

Kilo T1-Basic Weapons and TMA- Sink Single Merchant Ship within Visual range
Kilo T2-Basic Sonar and TMA- Transit to and Sink Single Merchant just out of visual range (detectable on sonar at start of course).
Kilo T3-Convoy Raiding One-Basic Tactics- A convoy escorted by a FFG. Warn the player they are going to get shot at and they will probably die the first few times, until they learn to evade and counterfire (with the reduced seekers on the LWTs in LWAMI Mod they actually have a decent chance of evading and FFG counterfire at range, but I'm not sure noobies should be using the mod, ah why not? up to them if they want...)
Kilo T4-Advanced Convoy Raiding and Missile Weapons-Realistic ASUW scenario, with the KLUB capable hulls.

Then I would recommend moving to the 688(i) NOT the Akula. The 688i I think is definately the best "first nuke." The weapons choices are simple and the interface is as clean as could be. If they already have the basics of fighting using sensors and the Nav Map and various stations, then the waterfall and ADCAPs plus the TA should be a very easy step to make.

I think the Akula with all it's dizzying array of weapons and the need to resolve TA contacts on the sonar wheel is more difficult than going right to the 688i with its waterfall and simple choice of ADCAP, ADCAP, or ADCAP. (oh yeah, harpoon and TASM too, but we can tell them to ignore those for the moment). ;)

[Bellman]

:lol: There goes my poorly veiled attempt to recruit more "Red" divers.
:roll: :damn: ;)

[OneShot]

Sounds like a good plan LW.

Something I would like to bring up again, is the DW Tips & Tricks Vault. My goal is to make this the one stop place for newbees (and maybe professionals too) for tips, tricks, tactics and stuff like that. You dont have to browse and search the subsim forum over and over, but everything is right at your fingertips (so to speak). That is, I will extend the Attachment system to allow Scenario Files (*.mu, *.ms, ...) so people can for example post training missions, with a detailed briefing (if they want that) and the scenario to go with it. Of course you can post regular missions as well.

However, this system can only be kept alive by the community. So its up to you guys & gals if you think this is a good idea to support it.

Cheers

[Bellman]

OS.

Good idea - training scenarios repository + briefings. :up: :rock:

[Bellman]

:sunny: WOW - OS done in a flash.

'Speedy Gonzalez' strikes again. :|\ :rock:

I've flagged it up.

[FERdeBOER]

Create training missions is a great idea.

I have a question and a proposal.

The question is: create the missions with or without LwAmi mod?

The proposal is that, if somebody is going to make a training mission, put a post in the editor forum so anymore make similar mission with similar platform.

[LuftWolf]

The question is: create the missions with or without LwAmi mod?

For the Kilo missions, it probably wouldn't matter too much.

In any case, I'd design the mission with stock detection ranges in mind, because it is aimed at noobies who might not even know what a Mod is. :)

[FERdeBOER]

You're right.

In a second though, there should be no much problems with using or not the mod for creating the missions because they're supposed to be "easy", so the ranges would not be big for "easy" detection... :hmm:

Other thing would be the torpedo evasion, but is no such important... :roll:

[Der wolf]

well... has anyone thought of doing a wiki-thinghymabob like they did with SH3? That was a great way of finding how to do things right and reading other interesting bits of information about that game. A DW wiki would surely be quite attractive in new players eyes.

[goldorak]

well... has anyone thought of doing a wiki-thinghymabob like they did with SH3? That was a great way of finding how to do things right and reading other interesting bits of information about that game. A DW wiki would surely be quite attractive in new players eyes.

I don't think that a wiki-like tutrial would attract new players.
In SHIII the situation was different because the manual was not very complete .
In DW we have the 500+ pages manual (printed or pdf) + numerous tutorials available on www.subguru.com that detail tactics for diffrent platforms.
The only platform which is lacking in in-depth tutorials and tactics at the moment is the frigate.

[LuftWolf]

The Commander's Academy and Dive Center is something like a wiki, and definately fulfills a similiar purpose. :up:

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/index.php

[Der wolf]

The Commander's Academy and Dive Center is something like a wiki, and definately fulfills a similiar purpose. :up:

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/index.php

oh, totally missed that. :oops:

But great, now I can read up while I wait for my boxed DW to arrive. :up:

[MaHuJa]

I don't think that a wiki-like tutrial would attract new players.
In SHIII the situation was different because the manual was not very complete .
In DW we have the 500+ pages manual (printed or pdf) + numerous tutorials available on www.subguru.com that detail tactics for diffrent platforms.
The only platform which is lacking in in-depth tutorials and tactics at the moment is the frigate.

There is my ffg guide... though it will require some changes to go beyond patch 1.01...

well... has anyone thought of doing a wiki-thinghymabob like they did with SH3?

That was a great way of finding how to do things right and reading other interesting bits of information about that game. A DW wiki would surely be quite attractive in new players eyes.

The master copy of my FFG guide is on a wiki - unfortunately it seems a bit problematic to see from anywhere but my own computer... At least until I get that little rearrangement of networking done.

I was talking to oneshot, the man behind the CADC, about a wiki, but I don't know what came of it.

[OneShot]

I tested the Wiki Software on my Testserver. While I think it might have its uses for manuals like MaHuJas FFG Guide or similar things, it can't replace the CADC, thats why I haven't put up a Wiki. Tho I'm keeping looking for a way to integrate the Wiki Software into the CADC as option for Guide/Manual Writers to post their stuff in a Wiki Format. While there are some way to integrate it already, they are not as much developed as I would like it.

@MahuJa : A way to "simulate" a Wiki on the CADC would be to keep your current FFG Manual Thread closed to adding additional posts to just yourself and open up a "BugFix" or "Addon/Modifications" thread were people can post whatever they think has to be changed or added. All you would have to do then would be copy & paste in your original thread (of course with a notice of who made the suggestion). That way the actual manual is kept "clean" of a lot of posts and people can still participate in your manual.

Btw. if you want features like In-Document Linking, they are available through bbCodes, just check out the FAQ on the CADC or buzz me over IM.