Mines, What Are They Good For?

[LuftWolf]

Assuming that the mines work correctly, as they do now in the LWAMI Mod, what tactical use do they have? Or are they generally only used to complete mission goal triggers (eg. "mine this area" missions)?

I'm wondering about both the sublaunched and airdropped varieties. :hmm:

[ohadbx]

In a guide I've read it was suggested that if an active torpedo is chasing you, you can drop a mine. The noise from the active pings should detonate the mine when the torpedo comes close to it- destroying the torp.

[LuftWolf]

Thanks for your answer ohadbx. :yep: :) :up:

I've read similar things as well. Although, using mines as decoys strikes me as being a being a bit "gamey." Also, we've removed the some of the properties of the mine that make it useful as a decoy in the game, such as they will now stop making noise when they stop.

So, I guess I'm wondering specifically about tactical uses of the mines in terms of offensive capabilies?

I know that the sensor of the mines will detect contacts within 100m of the mine... so I guess that means you have to drop them in circumstances where you are fairly certain an enemy contact will come within 100m of it. So I guess they are really only effective in littoral warfare, to block off channels and such. That seems reasonable to me, just not very useful in general unless the mission is designed with that particular tactic in mind, eg. the terrain of the mission has narrow channels that would make mining the most effective way of defending them.

Thoughts? :hmm:

[ohadbx]

As I understoop it, the mine isn't supposed to be a decoy.... YOU (the sub or ship) are the decoy. The mine is simply getting in the way of the torpedo and blowing it up when it comes close enough.

So theoretically, if you drop a mine and then change your vector- the torp should chase you and not come close enough to the mine for detonation.

But maybe UUVs could be good decoys...hmmm....

[LuftWolf]

Ah, now I understand. The mines actually do have an active signature, so the torpedos would sometimes home in on the mine over the sub.

I'm still a bit unsure if I'd use that tactice personally, because that seems to be a bit unrealistic. But if it works, hey use it I guess! :arrgh!:

[MaHuJa]

Shouldn't happen. The (real) torpedoes doesn't have a large enough magnetic signature to trip the proximity sensor.

They might be using "visual" sensors in the game though, so it depends on what the torpedoes are set to - possibly 0.


It was always the torpedo attacking the mine (giving the shooter a mine in the kill list, btw) because it started homing on it.



As for the real reason to use mines, it simply doesn't exist inside a DW mission (unless special scripting is in place) other than as a "generic mission objective". Once mines are detected, forces will stay away from the area. This includes mines detected only because one has detonated.


Except that last bit, this might be doable through doctrines.

[Molon Labe]

Ah, now I understand. The mines actually do have an active signature, so the torpedos would sometimes home in on the mine over the sub.

I'm still a bit unsure if I'd use that tactice personally, because that seems to be a bit unrealistic. But if it works, hey use it I guess! :arrgh!:

Of course, you could always reduce the active signature of the mine (you can, right?)

Anyways, mines have been found in the Jane's/SCS manuals under the heading "strategic weapons," not "tactical weapons." I think you just figured out why. :D

[FERdeBOER]

The mines are not very "decisive factor" in the game because they are for... how say that... for "long mission" (days, weeks...).

Mines are good for blockading ports (sometimes just few mines are enought, the enemy will not know how many are there and they will be very prudent untill searching the area very carefully), at least for a time till the enemy makes a clear channel again.

Also are usefull for closing own port entrances and making only one or two accesible ways easier to control.

But, in the game, as the missions are "fast", most of the times are set as goals-to-achieve and you have to suppose that they will be usefull in some future.

[Bill Nichols]

In a guide I've read it was suggested that if an active torpedo is chasing you, you can drop a mine. The noise from the active pings should detonate the mine when the torpedo comes close to it- destroying the torp.

So-called 'tactics' like this should never be possible in a game that tries to simulate real-world submarine warfare. :down:

[SeaQueen]

So, I guess I'm wondering specifically about tactical uses of the mines in terms of offensive capabilies?


In the US, mine warfare has tended to be neglected until recently, although it's been less neglected among NATO allies. It's not exactly glamorous, and mine sweepers just aren't as cool as destroyers, aircraft carriers, and cruisers. The thing is, battlefield realities have forced the US to start considering mine warfare. SACLANT, the big military / oceanographic research facility in Italy is sponsored by NATO and has a ton of resources devoted to mines. The bottom line is that more US tonnage has been damaged in recent conflicts by mines than any other naval weapon. They are a SERIOUS problem.

Besides mining enemy harbors and keeping them bottled up in port, mines are useful in a variety of ASW and ASuW scenarios.

A P-3, for example, could drop a line of mines to cut off an enemy ship's or sub's escape routes. If they can't go through the minefield without standing a good chance of getting wacked, then suddenly, the P-3's search just got an awful lot better. Similar scenarios are possible with submarines.

Mines are useful for defending boomer bastions. In fact, in Stefanick's Strategic Anti-Submarine Warfare he talks specifically about that scenario. The book is kind of dated (it's very 80s), but it's still good stuff. It goes into about as much detail as the unclassified literature available to wargamers can see. The Soviets / Russians have always been big fans of mines.

Mines are a huge factor in amphibious operations, they expect to find mines starting in the deep and continuing right up into the surf zone. One of the things that Navy SEALS are tasked to do is clear surf zone mines. Historically, that was the original rationale for what became SEALs / EOD. The LHA Tripoli was damaged by a mine in the first Gulf War. Similarly, the landing at Pusan was delayed because of mines.

Launching a minefield into the path of an oncoming group of warships is one very good way to begin an attack. Even if just one ship gets hit, they'll have to slow down and be a lot more cautious, making your approach much easier. When the limiting lines of approach for a surface group are spread 45 degrees apart versus 20 degrees apart, your life is much easier.

Mines were launched in the shipping lanes by Iranian submarines during the Tanker Wars in the 80s, according to a former destroyer commadore I used to work with. Any time you want to close a choke-point (Straights of Taiwan, Straights of Malacca, Straights of Tiran, Port Said, Straights of Hormuz, Straights of Gibralter, the mouth of the Bosphorus, the Denmark Straights, the Bering Straights, the entrances to the Sea of Okhotsk, etc), mines are an excellent way to do that.

One thing I actually wish they had in the sim was for the bottom type to influence the detectability of mines. Certain types of mines tend to get buried in sandy bottoms, so they're harder to find. Bottom roughness and the presence of pollution can make mines exceptionally difficult to find. In a harbor, for example, every piece of trash that ever fell off the back of a ship in the past 100 years looks like a mine on sonar and has to be investigated. You'll never find them all.

Drifting minefields are a potential threat in deep water. They're just mines that haven't been moored to anything and float with the currents causing random chaos and destruction all over the place. Mines that malfunction and break away from their moorings often end up on neighboring nations beaches. They have a similar effect of sewing random chaos and destruction throughout a warzone.

Mines could be used to enforce economic sanctions against hostile nations. While legally an act for war, depending on the politics of the time, people might not be too upset about it.

I hope this gives you all a start from which you all can start imagining evil things to do with mines.

[timmyg00]

I was originally going to poo-poo the very idea of using mines as torpedo decoys on purely technical grounds, saying nothing about the tactical lunacy of it all. However, i decided to do a little testing first, since I hadn't tried this since SC (the last time sombody brought up this ridiculous idea) and I wanted to make sure nothing had changed between SC and DW before I began ranting. NOTE: my testing was performed on STOCK DW, minus the LW/Ami mod.

- Active torpedo vs SLMM in transit: the active seeker will not detect the SLMM, and the torpedo will whizz right by it without detonating.

- Passive torpedo vs. SLMM in transit: the passive seeker tracks the SLMM, and the torpedo adjusts course to intercept and destroy the SLMM.

- Active torpedo vs. moored mine: The active torpedo will home on the mine and destroy it.

- Non-enabled torpedo vs. moored mine: the influence detonator will not trigger on a close-aboard torpedo in transit; see image (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3088/torpmine1tf.jpg).

Bottom line... it's possible to use a mine as a decoy against passive torpedoes... but it's not likely that, as a submarine, you could lay enough mines as a defense against incoming torpedoes... not to mention the TIW generated for other players when you launch a SLMM...

Say no to SLMMs! (as decoys ;) )

TG

[LuftWolf]

In the next version of the our mod, we could easily remove the remaining attributes that make the mines useful as decoys: lower the active signature of the airdropped mines to a level where they'd still be visible on HF, but wouldn't attract active torpedos in any reliable way; and the SLMM and mobile mines have already been fixed, as they stop generating noise once they have reached position.

MaHuJa, yes the mines do use a visual sensor, but the torpedos have no visual signature, so they won't trigger the mines.

Yeah, I would never use the mines as decoys anyway. Yuck! :88)

I suggest that guide-writers take that out of their guides, BTW, but if you want to give the readers every possible advantage in games, then I guess you could leave them in, but I would take it out. :know: :up:

[N00be]

Any expert here who can say for sure if a mine is big enough to be noticed by the torps active sonar?

[LuftWolf]

I'm not an expert, but based on the research I've done in order to better my gameplay and the work I've done on our mod, I'm going to say not unless the torpedo is basically going to run the mine over anyway, so very very close range.

Bill Nichols IS an expert, and I'd say his answer is fairly conclusive. ;)