Jungmanns Die Hard Project ALPHA (CHECK 1st post)

[gouldjg]

This is the message as recieved by Jungmann

He is testing on a clean vanilla



gouldjg (or others who wish to try) here is an alpha version to use with the type VIIC only.

http://rapidshare.de/files/6812504/DieHard_alpha_7c.rar.html

I reduced the petty and officer's qualification effect by 25% plus the change to the Damage Control room interval 10/30.

Additionly changes to the sub compartments similiar to any Zones.cfg to its end.

The extra Health Points for the 7c was doubled, the armor level lowered from 25 to 10 to balance it out. No going 'mano y mano' with a DD on the surface. The HP allow for a longer hull while sinking and DC barage, instead you have more system damage and failures.

I did not change floatation in Zones.cfg, I want the sub to start sinking if flooding becomes heavy, the other changes to this critical floatation ( by other mods) makes the sub unrealistically resistant to sinking from flooding.

Having a qualifed and rank crew is very important in order to get decent repairs. So spend renown on a ranked crew. Try it at different years on the U-505 mission.

Repairs and station effeciency go hand in hand. This means low ranked and unqualified crew will need some more to work a room. Engine room example takes 6 seaman, whereas a cheif Sr. Petty officer with machinist qualification can do the work of three seaman. A middle ground cheif petty can do the work of two seaman.

This helps to stretch out the repairs. The only place I can see with intervals giving a decent bonus, is the torp room. Minimum amount to load, then time is cut down by half about 66% then at 100% it is shorten some more.

The radio room I need to adjust some to get 100% with fully ranked and qualifed crew.

Only the Damage Control Team can repair the rest quarters. their is no self repair from crew there.

I am not mesing with crew fatigue for this (which obviously can make it even harder to repair via causing bow torp/engine room and such to have a higher fatigue rate and step ala gouldjg work).

Stock game. I made NO changes to fatigue.

I only lowered the qualification number for the Petty Officers, and main Officers by 25%. that is it. No fatigue change from stock. I want people to do their own chages if they want to.

As for Zones.cfg. You can try whatever you want. I just put a basic miminal changes in there to work.

Damage to hull, you can go even further up on Health Points and lower the armor even more; but be careful, it could cause your Uboat to be a tank.

Have you tried to play the alpha at different years using the U505 mission in a VIIC?

So far for an alpha, people seem to like it. It makes death a long drawn out scary feeling without turning your Uboat into a tank.

It is set up so peeps can use their own version of Zones.cfg and Fatigue if they wish. I only made a small change to qualifications effect and the small change to the Damage Control. Biggest change is to the sub.zon file.

Did you know the checking off the realistic repairs option at the start of a game may not even be working it seems? It is always stuck at fast repair option. In the stock game it may be a bug.

[Marhkimov]

The highly anticipated beta is here!!! Will try it. :up:

I am a beta tester... Hear me roar! :lol:



EDIT: Be forewarned though... All of the files in your beta package are sacred SH3 material. MEaning that many people may have already modded those files, and there will be many install conflicts... I hope you can find a way around this.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Cool stuff! DL'd it.

I hope I get to sail some soon. lol all I do is mod mod mod.

Cheers gouldjg... have been following this closely. :up:

[Marhkimov]

Minor hitch, but it is spelled 'organization,' not organisation. :lol:

and why is it inconvenient to leave it as 'fatigue?'

...anyhow, it doesn't matter what we call it as long as it does exactly what we want it to... ;)

[gouldjg]

Yes, I will correct the spelling error. Thanks :up: I am terrible at spelling and always rush type.

I call it organization because it makes it easier for my imagination to handle and accounts for so many unknown circumstances that may affect men onboad a submarine.

The game Hearts of Iron game me the idea and the more I think about organization loss rather than fatigue, the more personal gameplay I get. I want the skills reward to have an effect on performance not fatigue.

I have already noticed a small error but it will be a simple fix.

I forgot to add a small penalty to the engine rooms when crew first enter.

So as it stand at the moment I could just send a man to the R&R at the front of the ship for a cup of coffee and then pop him back in to the engine rooms.

I did not realise that I could do this ten times and end up with a fully organized man would take a while but to me it is unacceptable.

I was supposed to set a small penalty for station hoping that negates the abuse of the minor boost to energy when sent to the front R&R (rest and recoup).

It is simple to do yourself if you know these areas in the basic.cfg.

I will test this a post new setting tommorow morning as its late now.

I have just played another mission and thought it was very close to what I want.

I have tunnel vision at the moment so every bit of feedback I get is a good thing.

You see I have my way of dodging attacks so damage is so varied I cannot test all scenarios and tactics. I will try and get a balance when different players experience different damage situations.

[Hartmann]

Seems to be a nice mod ... impressive. :up:

downloading now... :up:

I see that a compartement is called captains motivation...

no could be better call this compartment as a Officers quarters ??

is only a idea ... and i don´t know if the german subs have a separate quarters for the officers.

thanks for your hard work.

[Marhkimov]

Tested one career mission... and lets just say that you can't go point blank range with an armed Liberty Ship. If that was not a no-no before, it should be now... :lol:

some more testing to be done...

EDIT: Just a suggestion, but what do you think about calling it 'stamina' instead of 'organization?' :hmm:

EDIT2: I have to go and do some things, but I'll have some more feedback in a few hours. Some good pics of the action too! :yep:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

... or if you wanted "willpower" "fortitude" "constitution" or "motivation" if you were stuck for terms.

[OneTinSoldier]

Hello,

This mod sounds excellent. I was thinking of installing this beta version. But I am wondering if you could tell me just what it is in your supplied 'main.cfg' file that is required? Is the mod currently only working for one type of sub or something so far?(SubmarineType=2, SubmarineVersion=2, SubmarineName=U-110, ConingTower=11). Or is it the 'Time Compression' settings that are important here? 3DRender=1024... OMG!!! I wonder if my system could handle the 3DRendering at a TC of 1024! I also noticed that my player name would now be 'Jason Gould'. ;)

I also like marhkimov's suggestion of a different name. Perhaps just call it the 'Battle Stations Stamina' mod. Sounds like a perfect name to me. What do you think?

Cheers,

OneTinSoldier

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Ohhh good idea OneTinSoldier... or "The Battlestations Willpower Mod"

lol... I gues we should let good old Mr Gould choose the name though.

I love the direction he has chosen. :sunny:

[lumat83]

I Test your mod but i don't understand. The guys on the deck, radio and diesel engine are tried in 6 hours. Is it right ?

(I've tested it in single mission and in x512)

[gouldjg]

As far as new names are concerned, I really like the officers quarter instead of captains motivation.

I was going to call the room Battle Drill but hey!

I say call a vot on what to call fatigue,

But I am trying to avoid it relating to tiredness,

Cohesion (that may be better)

Discipline

Blah Blah

The majority will decide.


As well as sailing feedback in campaign mode I could also do with some feedback on damage concequences of the system.

Have you had the 16 min repairs etc.

I know we still get some showing as 1 2 3 4 but for some reason it takes longer to fix these now.

[gouldjg]

I Test your mod but i don't understand. The guys on the deck, radio and diesel engine are tried in 6 hours. Is it right ?

(I've tested it in single mission and in x512)

Was you in bad weather, near the enemy, running at high engine speeds.

How tired was they?

This is the the kind of stuff I need to know before investigating?

When testing on calm seas and at standard engine also with no enemy contacts, I could run the boat for 24 hr max before major problems set in.

So we may have a difference in sailing i.e. weather etc.

[Marhkimov]

This is a test using the single mission, Courageous, with a 1942 TypeVIIC. I altered the mission so that the wind speed is 2.0, and the weather is partially cloudy but still sunny.

I am on the surface cruising flank speed right into a task force composed of 4 DD's and 1 CVE. Of course, I crash dive as soon as I get their attention, and a lone DD decides to hunt me down.


This is what I look like after he makes one pass. I lose one crewman and another is injured. The stern torpedo tube also develops a minor leak:
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2533/2.jpg

I fill up the stern compartment with men, and the water should be pumped out within 8 seconds. From that, I take it that the damage is very very minor, although I have already lost one man:
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1958/3.jpg

Here, the DD is coming by for his second pass. At this point, the u-boat is still in relatively good condition.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7356/4.jpg

Things are getting hairy now.
As a result of the 2nd pass,
3 rearward compartments are flooding,
4 addtional crewmen are dead,
making it 5 total casualties so far,
and a partridge in a pear tree... YES! The Kaleun is going ka-RAZY!!!
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1793/5.jpg

All of the flooded compartments are filled and I test out one man in the crisis team. Note the repair and destruction times. The flood to the Captain's Motivation room looks to be the only serious flood. The other two compartments should be dry in less than a minute.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7718/7.jpg

Here is the direct result of water flooding right into the ASS of my boat... :roll: NOTE: we are at 52m.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8740/9.jpg

Mere seconds later... Oh boy... Here he comes again... NOTE: we are at 59m.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1093/21.jpg

And I quote directly from the mouth of my hydrophone operator, "Oh SH*T!!!" NOTE: we are at 67m.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/70/22.jpg

I am saved Because of my sinking boat; the depth charges go off too shallow.
This isn't shown in the screenshot, but we drift all the way down to 80m before I choose to hit flank speed instead of being crushed by the pressure. With our nose still pointing upwards, surprisingly it works and we slowly start to rise. We now seem to have control over the flood.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9145/23.jpg

NOTE: my mouse pointer is aimed at 'Off Duty Quarters,' but in the text box, it still reads Bow Quarters.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4255/17.jpg

NOTE: my mouse pointer is aimed at Captains Motivation,' but in the text box, it still reads Stern Quarters.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7739/18.jpg

I have now levelled the u-boat off at 45m.
From the outside, things are beginning to look better...
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2883/19.jpg

But on the inside, my crew seems to have taken a "minor" hit... Yes, MINOR ;)
And that DD is still coming back for more. I am still being pinged.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5103/20.jpg



The first screenshot is taken at 16:12
The last screenshot is taken at 17:02

At that point, I had to conclude the testing session... Life beckoned ;)

For my testing purposes, I made the mistake of not "turning on" the hull integrity meter. Oh well...

And given that 50 minutes passed during this attack, the DD did in fact go on more than 2 attack runs. It just so happens that I only documented the most devestating of his attacks.

Overall, it looks as though the combat state is up to par. My only complaint is that one of my crewmen died early on when I was barely even damaged. I mean, this is not impossible, but I hope that it doesn't happen too often. I guess a bolt flew off the wall and hit him in the head or something...
I have to say that this is the most fun I've ever had while getting the SH*T knocked out of me.

And a note to anyone who thinks that this mod is too harsh, you have to realize that I basically had to coax that DD to depth charge me. The mission took place in Sept 1939, and from what I gather, the captain of that DD was a real dummy. I could have ran from him if I had even bothered to try... He's just lucky that I was beta testing... :lol:

Next, I think I'll have to test it in a later year (maybe 44' or 45') against more competent DD's.

And some more meticulous testing is to be done for normal sea-faring travel.

[gouldjg]

Thanks for the super damage report.

I have changed a few things based on this report and also tried a new approach to this dying crew thing though it may not work.

What I would like to know is as follows.

1. Did you feel as though your mens state was more important to you i.e. you felt a little more concerned where you put them and that you had to watch their org to ensure better crew management.

2. Did you also feel that after the battle you needed to rearange your men to get them in order incase you were attacked again. i.e. put the boat back to normal conditions takes a bit a crew management.

3. Can you imagine this after sailing for say 8hrs in campaighn mode and then encountering a battle scenario as in campaign. i.e. Your mens org will never really be in super condition as org loss is also calculated on high time compression instead of just being frozen.




Obviously more tweaks will need to be done and I am going to try and make a beta 2 avail later today.

In the mean time thanks for taking the time to gather all that info and posting the pictures.

This helps me understand what people are refering to when giving feedback.

I need someone to test a deck gun effect in bad weather, i.e. times till crew get disorganized on the deck gun or AA.

I would also like it if we can see exactly what effects the weather have on sailing. I set the men to last between 12 - 24 hrs but this will be different on some compartments depending on weather and/or if underwater.

Thanks for comments

[lumat83]

I Test your mod but i don't understand. The guys on the deck, radio and diesel engine are tried in 6 hours. Is it right ?

(I've tested it in single mission and in x512)

Was you in bad weather, near the enemy, running at high engine speeds.

How tired was they?

This is the the kind of stuff I need to know before investigating?

When testing on calm seas and at standard engine also with no enemy contacts, I could run the boat for 24 hr max before major problems set in.

So we may have a difference in sailing i.e. weather etc.


For answer, about the fatigue of my crew, I've tested in a single mission (Scapa flow - 1939). I run medium speed, to East to avoid contact with ennemy force (for the test). The mission begin at 17:35. The weather is cloudy. In 6 hours (past 23.00), the crew are tired in all compartments (with the little sign - beside their head ! ), except in the command room (not more than 15% fatigue).

You say You run 24 h before major problems. Ok, but a mission in career during many days, and I've seen the crew doesn't rest in the crew compartment, That is a problem (or I don't understand all the system of this mod, it's possible with my english :lol: )

I use SH3Commander. Is SH3Cdr modify the basic.cfg when run the game ?

Thanks for your help

[Der Teddy Bar]

gouldjg,
I applaud your work, however in this case the crew deaths were excessive by about 99% :rotfl: As you already noted.

I personally beleive that the approach to fatigue is all wrong. Fatigue is just that, a person becomes tired, has a rest and becomes untired. Everyone is trying to turn it into something that it is not, including the RUB model.

I will again state, that I do applaud your work and do not mean any disrespect. This is directed at all these approaches and not specifically at yours.

I have read many books, and no matter how long the patrol was, when it come to battle stations and the adrenalin kicked in the men were there to perform. Yes errors would have happened due to fatigue and the likes, but it did not suddenly take 5 men instead of 3 to do a job.

A crew out for a six weeks will be able to perform their task just as well as a crew that have been out for a week.

The fatigue is not combat stress.

[gouldjg]

I Test your mod but i don't understand. The guys on the deck, radio and diesel engine are tried in 6 hours. Is it right ?

(I've tested it in single mission and in x512)

Was you in bad weather, near the enemy, running at high engine speeds.

How tired was they?

This is the the kind of stuff I need to know before investigating?

When testing on calm seas and at standard engine also with no enemy contacts, I could run the boat for 24 hr max before major problems set in.

So we may have a difference in sailing i.e. weather etc.


For answer, about the fatigue of my crew, I've tested in a single mission (Scapa flow - 1939). I run medium speed, to East to avoid contact with ennemy force (for the test). The mission begin at 17:35. The weather is cloudy. In 6 hours (past 23.00), the crew are tired in all compartments (with the little sign - beside their head ! ), except in the command room (not more than 15% fatigue).

You say You run 24 h before major problems. Ok, but a mission in career during many days, and I've seen the crew doesn't rest in the crew compartment, That is a problem (or I don't understand all the system of this mod, it's possible with my english :lol: )

I use SH3Commander. Is SH3Cdr modify the basic.cfg when run the game ?

Thanks for your help

I would not use sh3 commander for this test just yet.

Start via your sh3 icon!

You may be going back to other files when using SH£ commander.

I mean to say, I have sh3 commander on my system but am starting my game through the normal sh3 icon which has rub 1.44 already installed.

Either it is this or maybe its another factor that we will soon discover.



Der Teddy

Yes you are right about fatigue models.

It is immpossible to simulate the exact setting we should be getting I think everyone can agree on that.

This is why I have said goodbye to a total realistic model because it just cannot be done in my eyes. (we never know what other modders may do later though as this is a totally new era in the fatigue modding aspect)

Just sorting the kids out and will get back on with testing and tweaking.

If i only knew how to disable the buttons above crew quarters then this game will be 10000% better in crew departments.


Just some thought for the near future,

I am pretty sure this can be made to have a random damage and crew setting in sh3 commander onces it it good to go it should just be a case of duplicating the files but with small changes in each. No mission will be the same again.

I am going to play with crew HP for the afternoon, its vey weird to work out exactly how crew get killed in this game. Any ideas?

[Redwine]

Hi all

This is the Battle Stations Version of the Hollywood series.


RUB is needed to test this but a later none RUB will be made should these please the beta testers.



This is a very good mod from the early versions....... many thanks for effort and job Gouldjg.

Waiting for the non RUB version.

Best regards, Red.

[vils]

gouldjg,
I applaud your work, however in this case the crew deaths were excessive by about 99% :rotfl: As you already noted.

I personally beleive that the approach to fatigue is all wrong. Fatigue is just that, a person becomes tired, has a rest and becomes untired. Everyone is trying to turn it into something that it is not, including the RUB model.

I will again state, that I do applaud your work and do not mean any disrespect. This is directed at all these approaches and not specifically at yours.

I have read many books, and no matter how long the patrol was, when it come to battle stations and the adrenalin kicked in the men were there to perform. Yes errors would have happened due to fatigue and the likes, but it did not suddenly take 5 men instead of 3 to do a job.

A crew out for a six weeks will be able to perform their task just as well as a crew that have been out for a week.

The fatigue is not combat stress.

I agree to Teddy Bat, very well written and explained. I would really like to see something
like this simulated.

Interesting, though I haven't tested it yet.

Can you give some more details on the damage system (your modifications of the zones.cfg file)? 'cause I like that part the most.

Also I wonder, if you set 3DRender at 1024 like I did, does it mean that you have to rearrange your crew every few hours (it's 24h per "watch" in your mod isn't it?) when cruising for several days? If so, I don't like that. :)

And another thing: is it possible to somehow differentiate fatigue factors for "cruise mode" and "combat mode" (other than setting higher fatigue for torp rooms/gun stations)?

[Marhkimov]

1. Did you feel as though your mens state was more important to you i.e. you felt a little more concerned where you put them and that you had to watch their org to ensure better crew management.

I was very concerned about my men. Any normal captain would go crazy if he saw the same amount of red exclaimation marks as I did (!!!). You could say that I underwent a lot of undue stress (which is a good thing; that's what we want, right?). Plus, if I had not ensured good crew management, I'm sure we would have sunk... It is an absolute necessity with your hollywood mod :yep:

2. Did you also feel that after the battle you needed to rearange your men to get them in order incase you were attacked again. i.e. put the boat back to normal conditions takes a bit a crew management.

I did attempt to rearrange the crew after every depth charge attack. Systems were getting damaged on almost every pass (but realisically so) which often times changed my damage control priorities. People might find your current system of crew micro-management to be a drag, but it really does give the player something better to do (as opposed to being glued to the periscopes at 50m, watching the DD's come by, and ordering flank left or flank right). I have to say that even myself, after going through that harrowing test, I was fatigued when it was all over... Love that feeling :up:

3. Can you imagine this after sailing for say 8hrs in campaighn mode and then encountering a battle scenario as in campaign. i.e. Your mens org will never really be in super condition as org loss is also calculated on high time compression instead of just being frozen.

I would like to see this in campaign mode, because not everything should be at full efficiency, at least not all the time. SH3 default makes it seem as though we are running on a sub with super-powered robots at the helm. A green crew, like I had in my test, would and should not be able to undergo such an attack in campaign mode, without at least losing a lot of their ability to function at full capacity. I would imagine that if you were to take such a beating in campaign mode, you'd probably want to sail your u-boat right back to port rather than continue on (to me, that sounds like a good and realistic feeling). That is much improved over the default SH3 damage and repair system, which leaves me feeling like my robots can handle anything (bad...).

In the mean time thanks for taking the time to gather all that info and posting the pictures.

Next time, I think I can do more testing if I take fewer pictures... :lol:



Some comments: I wouldn't worry too much about fixing all of the dying men... Don't make it so that DC attacks are no longer lethal; I'd rather have 5 men die than 0 men... but if you can possibly make it so that 2 men die instead of 5 men, by all means go ahead! :up:



Some people have said that this is not a real fatigue method or whatnot. They are correct in saying so, but I don't believe that your mod aims at gauging fatigue. Organization is something else...

Describing in words what it is.... The more 'organization' that your crew has, the more freedom you will have to "run" your boat. But the less organization they have, the more you have to be cautious and attentive to the needs of your men. No longer can you throw caution to the wind. This mod forces you to take measures in order to ensure the safety and survival of your men. When you finally escape from those nasty elite DD's, you WILL feel a sense of accomplishment, not to mention that you and your men will be DEAD-ASS tired!

[Marhkimov]

You'll probably be able to find it on your own, but here, in en_menu.txt :

636=Watch Tower
637=Radio Room
638=Command Room
639=Diesel Engines
640=Electric Engines
641=Bow Torpedo
642=Bow Quarters
643=Stern Quarters
644=Stern Torpedo
645=Forward Deck
646=Flak Gun

You might want to alter the corresponding compartments accordingly. And so far, GOOD GOING with this mod!! :up:

[Marhkimov]

I haven't tested these theories yet, but...

-Even if it is stormy, does the crew get less "fatigued" if the player decides to ride submurged, underneath of the brutal waves?

-Does speed of the u-boat affect fatigue/organization loss?

-Does a more experienced crew (either in terms of EXP or number of patrols) have an easier time of coping with this "fatigue" model?

-Is your system fully foolproof? Meaning is there any possible way for the player to "cheat" and somehow replenish his crew?... That's probably a bug that the beta testers have to catch.



ummm... :up: :up: :up:

[gouldjg]

Hi all Beta testers and others who are helping with this by giving comments suggestion etc.

I feel that it is only fair to explain this mod in detail so that other People such as Kaa etc can save time trying to balance their own versions which may in fact may suit other types of players.

To me its all a matter of who has the time etc.

I am only concentrating on a 24 hr system or as close to one as I can. After I have nailed this I will consider a longer based version or hopefully someone will follow what I have done and do their own preference.

I will highlight my changes and try and give explanation as to what effects what.

This will be a long thread but I hope you guys find it as interesting as I did playing with the figures.



Now Remember folks that I have RUB 1.44 installed and sh3 commander as well as installing Hollywood 5 as shown on first post however I am just loading the game through My standard desktop icon as SH3 commander will change the settings if I go through it at the moment.

So here goes with my view and settings on the subject of damage and fatigue.

FIRST = Crew settings (please note my latest changes after v5.00 will be shown in red so you can just change to this to get up to par where we are up to).

Open basic cfg

Remember I am only showing what I tweak and explaining as best as I can.


[DAMAGE]
OpenComp=1
PartiallyOpenComp=0.5
EnclosedComp=0.1 I have reduced this a little more to see if it improves the crew resistance to damage a bit better.

[CREW_0] ;SEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30 Not touched
MoraleMax=0.60 Not touched
MoraleStep=0.05Not touched
FatigueMin=0 Not touched
FatigueMax=0.95 This number represents the maximum fatigue a man can recieve. I set at 95%
FatigueStep=0.1 I have kept this all the same for every crew member. It seems to all fatigue to go up and down. Thats as much as I know :hmm:
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1 Set this all the same as well, what the hell they are all men to me.
QualEffect=1.1 I have this on low for lower ranks and worked up the higher I got in rank.
Hp=10 This number is bloody weird to me. If I set to say 1000 my resilience bar does not show so it seems to need to be fairly low.
Wounded=-0.02 Not touched
Dead=-0.05 Not touched
SunkShips=0.1 Not touched
TorpedoHit=0.05 Not touched
Experience=0 Not touched

[CREW_1] ;ABLESEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.95
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.2
Hp=11
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=20

[CREW_2] ;LEADINGSEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.93
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.3
Hp=12
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=50

[CREW_3] ;PETTYOFFICER
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.92
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.4
Hp=15
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=100

[CREW_4] ;CHIEFPETTYOFFICER
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.91
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.5
Hp=18
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=150

[CREW_5] ;CHIEFBOATSWAIN
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.85
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.6
Hp=20
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=200

[CREW_6] ;SUBLIEUTENANT
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.83
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.7
Hp=22
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=300

[CREW_7] ;LIEUTENANTJR
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.8
Hp=25
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=400

[CREW_8] ;LIEUTENANTSR
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.9
Hp=28
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=500

This next area I left alone but I think it needs looking into one day.

NumberOfCrew1=6
Interval1_1=3.0
Interval2_1=4.1
Interval3_1=8.5

NumberOfCrew2=9
Interval1_2=4.6
Interval2_2=6
Interval3_2=12.1

NumberOfCrew3=12
Interval1_3=6.1
Interval2_3=7.8
Interval3_3=16

NumberOfCrew4=8
Interval1_4=4.1
Interval2_4=5.3
Interval3_4=11

NumberOfCrew5=10
Interval1_5=5.1
Interval2_5=6.5
Interval3_5=13.7

NumberOfCrew6=7
Interval1_6=3.7
Interval2_6=4.7
Interval3_6=9.7

NumberOfCrew7=5
Interval1_7=2.7
Interval2_7=3.5
Interval3_7=7.3

NumberOfCrew8=3
Interval1_8=1.6
Interval2_8=2.3
Interval3_8=4.65

NumberOfCrew9=4
Interval1_9=2.2
Interval2_9=2.9
Interval3_9=6.1

NumberOfCrew10=14
Interval1_10=6.5
Interval2_10=8.2
Interval3_10=14.3

NumberOfCrew11=2
Interval1_11=1.1
Interval2_11=1.7
Interval3_11=4.1

NumberOfCrew12=1
Interval1_12=0.5
Interval2_12=0.7
Interval3_12=1.1

What does it all mean ????????????????

The following area shows what i have done regarding this time recovery though it may make no difference so your guess is as good as mine.

I changed every time recovery to 1. Why? god knows


NbComp=9
Comp0=0; Tower Watch
Nb0=5
Subs00=AttackPeriscope
AttackPeriscope=0; E_AttackPeriscope
TimeRecovery00=1
Subs01=ObservationPeriscope
ObservationPeriscope=1; E_ObservationPeriscope
TimeRecovery01=1
Subs02=RadioAntenna
RadioAntenna=2; E_RadioAntenna
TimeRecovery02=1
Subs03=RadarAntenna
RadarAntenna=3; E_RadarAntenna
TimeRecovery03=1
Subs04=RadarWarningReceiver
RadarWarningReceiver=40;E_RadarWarningReceiver

The next setion is a very improtant part of this mod and I will explain as I go.


[FATIGUE_COEF]
;comp 0 Tower
RegularFactor00=0.01 New setting Regular factor seems to represent the instant penalty for going into a compartment.
SpecificFactor00=0.003 Represents the drain, this is more than the others because there on watch in my eyes.
BadWeather0=0.0003 I have set these in no specific order to realism but I did want the watch to be affected.
;comp1 Sonar/Radio
RegularFactor10=0.1
RegularFactor11=0.1
SpecificFactor10=0.004 Has equal drain above water than below
SpecificFactor11=0.004
BadWeather1=0.0002
;comp2 command room
RegularFactor20=0.2 A higher penalty when first going into this room.
RegularFactor21=0.2
SpecificFactor20=0.004
SpecificFactor21=0.003
BadWeather2=0.0003
;comp3 diesel
RegularFactor30=0.01 New penalty
RegularFactor31=0.01 New penalty
SpecificFactor30=0.004 Notice that drain should only occur on surface and not below.
SpecificFactor31=0.0
BadWeather3=0.00001
;comp4 elect
RegularFactor40=0.01 New penalty
RegularFactor41=0.01 New penalty
SpecificFactor40=0.0
SpecificFactor41=0.004
BadWeather4=0.00000001 I just dont think weather should effect the electric as much as others.
;comp5 bow torp
RegularFactor50=0.1 Notice these setting are set for combat situations only and not for storing men whilst cruising.
RegularFactor51=0.1
SpecificFactor50=0.01
SpecificFactor51=0.01
BadWeather5=0.2
;comp6 bow rest
RegularFactor60=-0.01 The number represents the cup of coffee I am always on about. Also note this line has been introduced to the script.
RegularFactor61=-0.01
SpecificFactor60=-0.005
SpecificFactor61=-0.008
;comp7 stern rest
RegularFactor70=0.30 Notice the higher penalty in this area but then you will notice the faster recharge rate below.
RegularFactor71=0.30
SpecificFactor70=-0.015 Faster rate of recovery than other rest area
SpecificFactor71=-0.048
;comp8 stern torp
RegularFactor80=0.01 Again I set this area for battles
RegularFactor81=0.01
SpecificFactor80=0.01
SpecificFactor81=0.01
BadWeather8=0.2
;comp9 deck cast
RegularFactor90=0.10
SpecificFactor90=0.03
BadWeather9=0.5 Notice that I have a high weather penalty on this and the Flack gun area.
;comp10 flak
RegularFactor100=0.25
SpecificFactor100=0.03
BadWeather10=0.5
;comp 11 Repair station
RegularFactor110=0.99 This is how I manage repairs. All men recieve a massive org penalty to represent disorganisation and pannic.
RegularFactor111=0.99
SpecificFactor110=0.99
SpecificFactor111=0.99
BadWeather11=0 Sod weather here cos they are on max energey loss anyway.

I hope you followed most of that,

I will do damage explanation tommorow though some of my notes are in previous hollywood mods.

Once I get rid of the buttons that enable fast crew hopping, this system will be much better i.e. anti cheat. Till then the penalties all tally so people should not really benefit from using them. Check the figures yourselves and give me your thoughts.

I say feel free and tweak yourselves as you may wish to do a weekly system rather than daily.

Its all to do with Kaa finding that other main cfg file that allows fatigue to continue in high time compression.

I tell you, we should have found this earlier but nevermind, the fun starts now. Especially with rubinis recent f1 documents buttons etc.

I am excited because I know this game has almost endless possibilities.

I can imagine that one day we could sail along the coast and see artilliary battles on land. especially with all this 3d modeling etc.

[jjmikkel]

downloaded you mod and will test it tonight. If this mod works the way I think it will, it will truly revolutionize SH3. Great job. Im merging your mod with other mods, so I have to do alot of copy-pasting into the the basic.cfg. My question is: What did you change in the en_menu.txt? Also the scene.dat I use is the snorkelfix. What have you changed here? And what did you change in the Zones.cfg. Thanks alot, and again: Great work :up:

SpecificFactor70=-0.015 Faster rate of recovery than other rest area
Are you sure it works that way in actual game? 'Cause after some testing I ended up with a conclusion that those parameters don't affect crews' quarters. FatigueStep does. Maybe I overlooked something.

BadWeather9=0.5 Notice that I have a high weather penalty on this and the Flack gun area.
But afaik you can't man gun stations during bad weather... Have you made it possible?


Btw, do you happen to know if the game does take the BadWeather parameter into account when submerged?

I changed every time recovery to 1. Why? god knows
Have you found what does that parameter do? Did you try settinng it e.g to 30 or some other high figure?

[Marhkimov]

Im merging your mod with other mods, so I have to do alot of copy-pasting into the the basic.cfg.

You probably want to save yourself the time and not do that just yet. Considering that this is the beta release and all, it's gonna go through a lot of changes.

[jjmikkel]

Im merging your mod with other mods, so I have to do alot of copy-pasting into the the basic.cfg.

You probably want to save yourself the time and not do that just yet. Considering that this is the beta release and all, it's gonna go through a lot of changes.

Yeah, I know. I kept a backup of the old files so I can go through the same routine when the final release is out. I use my own homemade mod, that changes the renown cost of torpedoes to 100 for TI and 25 for TII. TIII´s are in the middle with 50 renown. Also my boat is not equipped with toprs from the beginning. I have to buy my own. I think it adds...well...something.

What can I say. Im a merger :rock:

[Jungman]

If you want more real history of the T-2 and T-3 difference in game and should be modelled, I read alot about this.

The only difference over the T-2 is the T-3 had a magnetic pistol added. The T-2 was only impact. Plus T-3 had better batteries. I wish this was add to the model. But OT. The T-1 is really over powered since the bubble trail does not give away the subs location during the day immediate and the ships really do not turn away fast enough. You could make the T1 warhead less powerful.

To the point of subject.

I found I think the click locations of the stations in menu. They are not called by their regular names. Something like Crew_Selection number 6 alot of entries. That one is for the 6 spots for the officers to click on in sub. called type horizontal_line.

The other entry is for the damage and watch officer spots, nub=2.

Then loads of 'lines' with the crew number to 12 across. Layers like a cake for position.

[Marhkimov]

Another test scenario. Single mission, 1944 VIIC, wind 13.0, bright and clear skies.

A bomb (may have been two bombs... 250kg's from an Avenger) hits directly on the hull of test subject U-681, but it does not result in an instant death.
http://img447.imageshack.us/img447/7325/174cs.jpg

Immediate damage results:
http://img447.imageshack.us/img447/5789/140lm.jpg

U-681 then decides to do a little sinking...
Port view:
http://img447.imageshack.us/img447/8198/167bd.jpg

Starboard view:
http://img447.imageshack.us/img447/861/152hd.jpg



I was disappointed that I did not die immediately. After all, how many u-boats out there survived bombs directly to their hull?

But the full story is that after being struck by the bomb, I order a crash dive. As in my last test mission, the Captains Motivation room takes the most devestating damage (gouldjg, this may be a pattern that you might want to look into. That compartment may be too weak? Or other compartments may be too strong? Or it could just be the spot where the bomb hit... not sure).

The boat is incapable of descending nose down, so we sort of do an 'airplane-to-runway' style approach. Aft batteries are destroyed. Starboard (right) Electric engine is damaged, and we have almost no speed; flank seems to do nothing. About a minute later, we hit 70m but U-681 continues downwards to 90m or so.

Afraid we will go too deep (42% hull integrity), I hit 'E' repeatedly to blow the tanks. As we rise a little bit, flooding has stopped in the Captains Motivation room, but the sea water has yet to be fully pumped out (compartment about half full at this point). We get up to about 30m, but our compressed air reserves are just about empty. Although our nose is pointed up at about a 40 degree angle, with only one good electric motor, we are not able to generate any sort of velocity... So we begin to sink, again...

A minute later, our compressed air is fully depleted and the starboard electric engine is still a good 8-10 minutes from being repaired... 80m... 90m... 100m... Pipes burst... Steam vents... Sparks shoot... Lights flicker... Men scream... Oooooh, and then the scariest thing happens...


...


...


...


STATIC DEATH SCREEN APPEARS!!!

any questions?
*And this is my opinion, but death in this fashion is thrilling! Well, except for that darn death screen... :yep:

[Hartmann]

i think that is very realistic !!!

A bomb hit not always destroyed a target...this could punctured the outher hull and cause a flooding in the inner pressure hull.

some compartments could remain watertigh until the water pressure crush the boat

the only solution could be go out of the boat and jump to the water before it sinks .

[Gizzmoe]

But afaik you can't man gun stations during bad weather... Have you made it possible?

This can be done since 1.4b.

Change the "StormConditions" parameter in every submarine cfg file (data\submarine) to

StormConditions=15,1

[Marhkimov]

i think that is very realistic !!!

A bomb hit not always destroyed a target...this could punctured the outher hull and cause a flooding in the inner pressure hull.

some compartments could remain watertigh until the water pressure crush the boat

the only solution could be go out of the boat and jump to the water before it sinks .

Ok, I guess it could be realistic...

In the end, though, the 250kg was the cause my death, so all is well, even if I didn't die immediately.

[Jungman]

gouldjd, :P

I found how to disable the six quick box mode menus unter the sub on the crew screen. These will need to be disabled too.

Here is one of the six surface/underwater/attack mode quick button s at bottom on screen.

[G67 I676]
Type=1031;Stat bmp array
ItemID=0x67000303
ParentID=0x67000000
Pos=731,207,32,32
Color=0xFFFFFFFF
Materials=4
Display=2;Linear
Mat 0=data\menu\data\crewicon.tga
Crop 0=0,0.375,0.25,0.125
Mat 1=data\menu\data\crewicon.tga
Crop 1=0.25,0.375,0.25,0.125
Mat 2=data\menu\data\crewicon.tga
Crop 2=0.5,0.375,0.25,0.125
Mat 3=data\menu\data\crewicon.tga
Crop 3=0.75,0.375,0.25,0.125
MatFlags=0x1
TexFmt=0x5
Drag=false
BmpState=1 --------> change to zero will disable the click operation.
NeedFocus=true
SelOne=true
IdGroup=0
StatesColors=0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF
ToolTipText=426

This is the Surface Attack quick box click mode. This is how to disable it not to work. Do it for all six modes. Now for the stations....soon. ;)

[Jungman]

OK I disabled ALL mass clicking on stations. It is not perfect, but you can no longer click to mass move anyone. Example for Bow Torpedo.

[G67 I653]
Type=1030;Check box 1033
ItemID=0x6700005B
ParentID=0x67000000
Pos=880,465,65,38
Color=0xFFFFFFFF
Materials=8
Display=2;Linear
Mat 0=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 1=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 2=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 3=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 4=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 5=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 6=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 7=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
MatFlags=0x1
TexFmt=0x9
Font=5
Text=250 ;bow torpedo
TextPosFlags=0x2
TextFlags=0x10
CheckBoxWidth=0
StatesColors=0xFF, 0xFF, 0xAA5800FF, 0xDD5800FF

The change of type from 1033 to 1030 causes no Bow Torpedo name to appear above the comparment, and thus you cannot click on it.

Now to make it perfect, all I need to do is disable it and still let the WORD name appear (only the 'Bow Torpedo Symbol' still shows).

This is what you want between these two post. No click on six quick mode icons, nor clicking on the comparment name to mass switch crew. Only the comparment name does not show, but the picture symbol shows for the station. All I need to do now is add the crop name to the symbol to get it to display the comparment name.
:rock:

[gouldjg]

Jungman you are great guy. :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

I am eagerly awaiting this disabled compartmnet name clicking function.

Could you please host the file on rapid share or other once your tests have been done. :up:

Yes Yes Yes this is getting better by the day.

Ok once this is done, I am going to look at a more realistic approach to crew management but need opinions from guys like you, Kaa and marhkimov. We will have to come to some sort of aggreement between realism and gameplay. Or make multiple systems so people can choose in a future release of SH3 commander. I like the random possibilities as well.

I know Kaa is doing a longer time based fatigue system.

Kaa I do not actually know if weather does effect if underwater or not however I am trying to simulate it should it do so. e.g. I have a lower drain rate in some compartments when under water. I just need to tweak to try and get a good balance.

As far as the rest rooms are concerned, I think it is a combination of fatigue step and specific factor. Which ever, it seemed to work.

With regards to damage

I still feel that I need to do some minor tweaks.

Guys I am not maths expert or modder really. I just love this game better than any and want to find a balance of realism without taking gameplay away.

This system seems to be going to plan.

Once we do this 24 hr version, we can then move to do longer systems for those who want at least a steady weeks sailing before man management.

Sunday is a bad day for me to work on this game as I have to play family man till 3 pm. Please excuse if I seem to be not able to anwer questions in long descriptive style. I am not being ignorant, I am just having wife down my neck.

However I will be back to work from 3 pm onwards.

Guys I just want to say this would not have been possible if it was not due to your efforts and to the efforts of people like Beery, CCIP etc, Thanks, you are making my game much better. :up:

[Marhkimov]

It is my opinion that all compartments other than 'Captains Motivation' and 'Off Duty Quarters' are too easily repaired. By themselves, the crew just seems to be too efficient. These next two images show just what I mean...

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8419/190tv.jpg

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7914/204tt.jpg


The damage repair of 'Captains Motivation' and 'Off Duty Quarters' are pretty good...

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/410/182si.jpg

[Gizzmoe]

I am eagerly awaiting this disabled compartmnet name clicking function.

Maybe there´s something I don´t get, but what´s the point of removing a feature that can be sometimes even quite useful?

[Jungman]

I am eagerly awaiting this disabled compartmnet name clicking function.


Do you want just a modified stock Menu.ini? It will not work with other mods that change it. It can always be added in. There is 17 entries that have to be changed.

I found a cheap way to make the comparment name to be displayed again. I made a darker crew screen mod to make it not so bright for night time attacks. All I have to do is just 'type in' the letter names onto this background crew screen in the correct spot Backpap2.tga. The the name of the comparment will show.

But that means you wil have to use my modified background crew screen. Alot of peole like it. I would rather do it with my shaded back ground. I can make one for the original.

I need some input on this matter. I realy prefe a darker background. What should I do? Make two of them? What do you want to call that stern quarter "Captains Motiviation" or something more like "Captains Quarters" ???

This is all I have to do and I will have a finished mod to go with your work.

1) stock menu.ini
2) stock crew managment screen, or a darker version?
3) a decent name for the Stern Quarters. Maybe Officors Quarters? ( Captains Quarters would mean only one bed.)

The officors beds are probably more luxury and thus more enjoy.

[Marhkimov]

Is there absolutely no other way to get the text to show up while still being able to disable the double-click function?

[gouldjg]

By removing the instant button features, I can control the damage system much better.

As it is now, I could rush men into repair and they will get the penalty I want them to recieve. This makes repair and flooding much more intense (that is when I have fully tweaked compartment strenghs etc as described above).

Now if I did double click the repair option whilst men are in it, fresh men take over and do not get hit by the penalty.

This happens in other compartments also.

So when this is disabled the player is forced to go by the rules of play.



Just a quick not. The rest quarters do take longer to fix because only the repair crew can fix then 2 stations. In other compartments you get assisted by the men in there.


I was going to base much of the flooding in those compartments as this is what we want. i.e. more intense flooding and slower deaths.

So heres the plan,

I reduce other compartments HP so more sub system damge may occur. I then have to rebalance floatability.

I then look at the crew quarters as being slightly more prone to flooding i.e. I tweak critical-flotation (seems to do the trick).

I may have to reduce floatability so we sink but not too fast as I have had 9min flood recovery in some tests.

Hope people a following this as it is the way to go for more intense damage.

I have not yet adjusted this for releae yet but now that jungman has found a way so we cannot really cheat, it should be good feature.

Oh yeh, it will be good.

p.s. I was going to use the rest quarters as the father of many subsystems from other rooms. This might, just might make repairs take much longer in the whole if my theory is correct.

[Gizzmoe]

Ok, thanks for the information.

[gouldjg]

I am eagerly awaiting this disabled compartmnet name clicking function.


Do you want just a modified stock Menu.ini? It will not work with other mods that change it. It can always be added in. There is 17 entries that have to be changed.

I found a cheap way to make the comparment name to be displayed again. I made a darker crew screen mod to make it not so bright for night time attacks. All I have to do is just 'type in' the letter names onto this background crew screen in the correct spot Backpap2.tga. The the name of the comparment will show.

But that means you wil have to use my modified background crew screen. Alot of peole like it. I would rather do it with my shaded back ground. I can make one for the original.

I need some input on this matter. I realy prefe a darker background. What should I do? Make two of them? What do you want to call that stern quarter "Captains Motiviation" or something more like "Captains Quarters" ???

This is all I have to do and I will have a finished mod to go with your work.

1) stock menu.ini
2) stock crew managment screen, or a darker version?
3) a decent name for the Stern Quarters. Maybe Officors Quarters? ( Captains Quarters would mean only one bed.)

The officors beds are probably more luxury and thus more enjoy.


Yes Yes Yes

Right then down to business.

1. If you could do one that is RUB 1.44 compatible at the moment so I can test on my end that would be great. We have to wrap this up in test before making other mod compatible versions but once this is right, it should be a simple case of deciding what versions are wanted most. I do not know what the following of the community is like today (been away).

2.Darker because we will be looking at this screen much more now instead of emergencies only. Dark for me anyway.

3. Officers quarters (yes I like that)

Cheers matey :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[Marhkimov]

So aside from the double-click issue that is currently being worked on, how close are you to releasing the real version?

Just a few more tweeks?... or a lot more?

[lumat83]

Well, A little french would like to give you his opinion :lol:

Are you ready? Ok let's go :P

This mod is a great work on the damage managment, it's really. For that I like it .

But (bacause there is a but :) )

Why do you not work with Kaa for the fatigue model ?
I said it, I love the fatigue model of Kaa because it seem more realist. In fact, after many days on the sea, I think that crews are many tired, and sleeping is not sufficiant because there is a great stress (due to the war, the distance from home and the life in a little boat with many people).
For me, it's more important to talk about stress than about fatigue and it's not realist to drag the crew to sleeping when are tired. On the other side, It's logical to back home with all crew tired ou very tired.
Crews are also importante as fuel and we must decide a road after many questions. Are the crew capables to support this new road, have I enough fuel to finish my mission ...?
Kaa has a great idea and i would like a mixing between your damage managment and the faitigue system of Kaa.

I hope you have understood my text. (Grrrr, my english :x )
It's my opinion and only my opinion. But I've made some missions with the modele of Kaa and i Promise you, that is stressfull to see crews more and more tired day after day.

[gouldjg]

Well, A little french would like to give you his opinion :lol:

Are you ready? Ok let's go :P

This mod is a great work on the damage managment, it's really. For that I like it .

But (bacause there is a but :) )

Why do you not work with Kaa for the fatigue model ?
I said it, I love the fatigue model of Kaa because it seem more realist. In fact, after many days on the sea, I think that crews are many tired, and sleeping is not sufficiant because there is a great stress (due to the war, the distance from home and the life in a little boat with many people).
For me, it's more important to talk about stress than about fatigue and it's not realist to drag the crew to sleeping when are tired. On the other side, It's logical to back home with all crew tired ou very tired.
Crews are also importante as fuel and we must decide a road after many questions. Are the crew capables to support this new road, have I enough fuel to finish my mission ...?
Kaa has a great idea and i would like a mixing between your damage managment and the faitigue system of Kaa.

I hope you have understood my text. (Grrrr, my english :x )
It's my opinion and only my opinion. But I've made some missions with the modele of Kaa and i Promise you, that is stressfull to see crews more and more tired day after day.

Hi Lumat

I hear what your saying and Kaa's discovery was vital in this mod. None of this would have been possible without him and he will get a major credit in the readme.

This is how I see it.

1. I wanted to manage my crew (not every minute but I do want to have a inffluence on boat performance and a feel of management.)

A 24 hrs system is my first base as I can still travel quite far before having to pander the crew.) If at a later date we decide to lenghen this by a majority vote, I am fine by that. I will probably stick to a 24 - 36 hrs max though as my personal preference.

2. For longer damage repairs to occur it is a requirement to decrease the overall efficiency of the repair team hence the penalty set when a crew memeber goes into that room. Now after discovering that the crew resting compartments will only be repaired by a repair crew and not the men resting in the compartments, this opens up a lot of possibilities for the flooding and damge changes that I want to attempt to get.

For this to work I believe IMHO, the player must be given a chance to recoup his men. Why? Well because it could be in week one when the sub is attacked. It may be a flooding incident however the crew manage to repair and the U-boat is still good enough to continue mission. Why should I then go on to sail the next 3 weeks with crew at rock bottom energy levels/organization?

Its not that I don't like what Kaa is doing because I do. Its just that I find it hard to balance his system with the new damage changes I am trying to achieve.

I will be sharing all changes on this work so people like Kaa and others can tweak their games and mods to their play style. Kaa may see something I don’t and be able to balance the new damage with his mod

Lets just get the damage right and then we can talk about what we feel would be the best fatigue system. I personally think we can make different versions to please the majority but I will need to get one right first.

I don’t want to go down the lines of making this mod the only mod with the new damage changes. I want all versions of fatigue models to benefit from the damage changes.

Its just that this long term fatigue issue does not allow a recoup option and this would make players think that I am being too severe in setting a repair penalty.

Maybe Kaa could still set a penalty for repair crew but allow recoup over a longer period i.e. 1-2 weeks to get men back in ship shape order but I don’t think he wants that system and if he does not want it he should not be forced to think on my lines. When I have done this I am going to have a good look at Kaas work and see if I can help out, but that’s after this is finished as people are waiting for this now. (my mate over the road is actually knocking on my door everyday to see if I am done :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: )

If he tries to set it without giving players a chance to recoup, I suspect a lot of explaining will be required. I do however think it may be possible for him to get the flooding benefits.


One suggestion would be for Kaa to look at zones.cfg and play with flooding in the rest quarters both bow and stern. His repair team may still work fast as in standard game but he could set a better flooding system that causes the sinking effect and possible much more sever rate of flooding in these compartments.

Its all about testing really.


I am now going to work on this and hopefully it’s just a matter of wrapping it all up and writing a fully explanatory read me guide.

marhkimov

So aside from the double-click issue that is currently being worked on, how close are you to releasing the real version?

Just a few more tweaks? or a lot more?

I think we are close mate. :yep:

I think damage can be improved tonight due to your excellent observations.

Maybe its time to just doing a few test in campaign mode to see if the fatigue times are pretty much based within a 24hr system.

Would also need to test how fast crew are affected in bad weather, and if bad weather under water does anything.

When I have done this and Jungman has finished his screen changes etc.

we can pack it and share with the community.

I will then start to look at people’s preferences with regards to how often they want to check in on their men whilst sailing. I may just post the changes needed to say sail for a week etc.

This should then give more people the ability to benefit from the damage model I am creating.

Hell I have just realised that people don’t play RUB so will have to create one for those as well. (I will dig up a older hollywood damge that was based on vanilla game and then just tweak accordingly.)

So I am getting back to work now.

marhkimov

I loved the way you use pictures and describe the workings. It would be great if I could give you a explanation of the features and you could then do a promotion readme thread that can also act as a guide. You know pictures etc.

I could do one but it all takes time of which I will be very limited due to continuing work on other model compatible versions and maybe a random set that could be incorporated later.

[CCIP]

Excellent work, and it's a shame I can't keep up with it for a bit -

I'll wait out the first beta round for now, I think, and hook up when you have some of the initial things hammered out - I should have time to play SHIII more extensively by then.

Keep it up - alert me when the 2nd version rolls out :)

[Marhkimov]

In real life, what would happen in a hypothetical situation such as this?

It is 1944. A type IXC u-boat sneaks into a HK group, composed of one fleet carrier and 5 'veteran' DD's. The u-boat then sinks the carrier, and attempts to silently run away. It goes down to about 120m, but one of the DD's manages to locate the rouge sub. The other 4 DD's are still about 4-5 minutes away. So for now, all by it's lonesome self, the DD goes on a few attack runs. It drops hedgehogs and DC's. Should the lone DD be able to win, or should the u-boat be able to escape? (remember, this is a real-life hypothetical question)


Now, compare that situation with what happened to me in a test mission (btw, I was using gouldjg's beta damage mod):

The mission happens exactly as described above, but as it turns out, the DD wins and the u-boat loses. The depth charges felt like 2000lb bunker busters... There was no flooding in this test; I simply lost too much hull integrity. It wasn't the actual DC's that killed me; since I was at 120m, it was the pressure. Is this realistic? Maybe I'll test it again, but if I am located, I'm not so sure that I will be able to escape. The flood control is modelled just fine, but this time flooding was not the issue. Different issue, but perhaps the effect of DC's on the u-boat hull is too effective?

gouldjg, if you want to test this for yourself, try running the U-505 mission and see if you can escape in one piece (I used my own edited version of the "U-505" single mission. I changed a few things, most notably I made all of the DD's veteran). Even if you are running silent and deep, the DC's may prove to be too much to handle... Im not sure you can do anything to fix this problem, though... Zones.cfg maybe?



***And OT, but hedgehogs really suck ASS. They do almost no damage to the u-boat and subsequent systems... Was that how it was in real life too? I heard that one of those little 'bomblets' was not powerful enough to destroy a u-boat... But c'mon, were they really as bad as SH3 portrays?




marhkimov

I loved the way you use pictures and describe the workings. It would be great if I could give you a explanation of the features and you could then do a promotion readme thread that can also act as a guide. You know pictures etc.

I could do one but it all takes time of which I will be very limited due to continuing work on other model compatible versions and maybe a random set that could be incorporated later.

Sure, once it's released, I'd love to do some sort of promotional thread. This mod was something I've always wanted from the get-go but I just didn't want to spend hours at a time doing boring ol' number tweeks. But since you went ahead and did that 'stuff' for me, I thought I might help... Even just a little bit... :yep:

[gouldjg]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I have just been trying 505 mission with new changes.

Well after catching the hedgehogs on bad angles i.e. I get 4 hedgehog strikes all at once. I was dead as a duck :rotfl: .

I reloaded and tried again, Funny I get 3 HH hits agian and again Dead as a duck :rotfl: . Obviously if this was real life I would have tried to escape and not lined myself up for his attack by listening to his everymove.

Anyway I tried for a third time and just sail staright on crasg dive settings.

1 HH hit and damge is fair in my eyes.

Now onto the DC issues. As I have RUB installed i know all this stuff has been modified to be more realistic and in some cases lethal.

The hull integrity set in this game is a limit on what we can do as far as the damage instant death. It sometimes cheeses me off.

However heres some good news

I was right about the crew compartments and flooding. It is possible to get a long drawn out leak in those areas.

So I am just sorting that long flooding death out then we can look at other issues.

I will report back in a moment as I have just got an idea.

CCIP I will let you know when this should be ready.

[Marhkimov]

I know it doesn't really matter what we call these crew ratings, but I'll make a few sugestions/requests anyways.


In default SH3, it is called 'Morale.' I move to change it to 'Confidence.'

In default SH3, it is called 'Endurance.' I move to change it to 'Morale.'
I do like Morale much better than organization.

[Marhkimov]

Two more tests on the same U-505 mission...

Two more times murdered... :roll:

I don't think escape is a possibility, even if you try really really hard...

[Hartmann]

Perhaps the Rub depth charges are too powerful.
what about using the deffault game settings ?? :88)

[CCIP]

Perhaps the Rub depth charges are too powerful.
what about using the deffault game settings ?? :88)

RUb charges are reduced compared to default.
:hmm:

[gouldjg]

I think we could hope for slightly less lethal DC for gameplay. Whats everyones opinion on this?

I am not upto scratch on Dc strengh etc. Has the power been upped lately.

But then again, are the DD's still very accurate in this RUB.

I can usually slip DDs on 505 but thats only because of decoys.

I can really understand the stress of those men who had to endure 11 bloody hours of it.

One thing is now for sure, If I was in campaighn mode I would be bloody more careful when lining up for a attack and even skip a few if I thought I was going to have a hard time after.


Am i to take it that you are now trying to get away or you feel that the sub is too weak?.

What is the best move we can take considering we cannot interfere with Hull integrity.

I find that pressure is killing me more than anything else.

Could we not alter the crush depths so that the game lets us dive to 500 ft before crushing. This lets me start a slow decend into the murcky depths even with damage. I will not really take pressure damge till much deeper. If I was on shallow water I would hit bottom just like in Das and maybe just maybe do my repairs and get back up.

The good side of it would be that we could take much more damage but the bad side is the fact that there is then nothing to stop us from cheating and playing at that depth.


Unless the actual needle on the Depth control can stop us from abusing depth.


Lets say it does. I would vote for a weaker crush depth system so we could let the sub take lots of damage. We carry on taking on water instead of just listening to those bloody pops that hardly let us pull up.

Is this possible? It may improve things further or at least drag the innevitable out longer.

Timetraveller done work in this area did he not

[Marhkimov]

BTW, I am using timetaveller's crush depth values. Using my own "realistic" values, my TypeIX u-boats are set to crush from anywhere in between 210 and 260m...


Yes, I am dying because of pressure... For a third test, I sank the HMS Coouragous and tried really really hard to get away. I went down to 200m and the DD's still found me with no trouble at all. It started raining DC's and one lucky shot brought me down to 64%. After that, it was an agonizing crush to death.

For the test, I reinstalled RUb depth charge settings and A.I. sensors (from RUb 1.44.7z), but to no avail... They have not been altered for a long time...


U-BOAT IS TOO WEAK! OR DC'S ARE TOO STRONG! OR DD'S ARE CRAZY GOOD!


I guess as u-boat captains, we have to be careful, but it shouldn't be 100% suicide whenever we encounter 'veteran' DD's.



Could we not alter the crush depths so that the game lets us dive to 500 ft before crushing. This lets me start a slow decend into the murcky depths even with damage. I will not really take pressure damge till much deeper. If I was on shallow water I would hit bottom just like in Das and maybe just maybe do my repairs and get back up.

I'm not so sure that I would like for us to be able to sink all the way down to 500m...

The good side of it would be that we could take much more damage but the bad side is the fact that there is then nothing to stop us from cheating and playing at that depth.


True.



So why can't we just add a little more HP or armor to our u-boats? Either that or Jungman could stop by and help us out by coming up with some less effective 'A.I. sensor' and 'depth charge' values?

[gouldjg]

If we got less effective DC then the sub flooding will not kick in ttill we got direct hits. Everything will start to look stupid froman external point of view.

I feel the DC are fine at current setting. Maybe a tad too good at aiming and deph correcion but I can usually go for hours when I play 100% concentration and use the rule book of evasion.

I do however feel that you are correct about HP of sub hull integrity. If this was ever solved everyone would play this game till the cows come home. It is this death thing that drove many players away.

Now I suggested increasing depth limits with timetravellers tool.

I am not for one minute suggesting that we should all be able to cruise at 500 metres. But for me, here goes the following idea.

Our depth gauges prevent us from going to stupid depths.

If we time the first creaking sound effect to sound worse and have big hints we are in trouble then I am fine with it.

I am well disciplined to stick by the rules of travelling at certain depths. I will not be putting my needle to the 300 mtr and take the mick out of the system.

However when I get low hull, i will not just break up over seconds. I am hoping my sub will start breaking up at 200 mtres +. It should never get beyond 300 metres cos the hull damage has already seen to that.

I am just going to test and will report back.

Bye the way I am getting pretty good results now even without this feature. The only thing is that I cannot really see any other way of influncing the hull pressure death screen.

[capt-jones]

:( i got exactly the same problems as marhkimov,except i played THE XXI mission exactly the same outcome as marhkimov said it is a quick death down there at 120 metres it could well be with the hull pressure and the dc's they do fell like bunker busters , iwas wondering that if the hull intgrity degrades from 100% to zero in 1.4b when you reach crush depth ,is there a way of restoreing it as the sub is repaired or when it surfaces as it is a pain anyway we just aswell have it working for us as against us, then it would not matter so much if we had it displayed or not BTW i was getting too grips with the damage control and the flooding it felt very realistic ,but it seems the destroyer gets you on his next pass even at all stop "rig for for silent runnin " on ,i have even been destroyed tryin too sit it out on the bottom at all stop , but this is a big plus because the flooding is slow you can wait it out a bit :hmm: no wonder they call em destoyers they are pretty vicous and a bit too accurate for my likeing :know: i remmember @ gouldjg you did reduce the dc's velocity from 50 feet too the more realitic range of 15 feet (or was it metres im not sure)
:up: i personally would like more sustained dc attacks with less damage as you said the uboats were depth charged for up too eleven hours :rock: now that would be summit to write home about :|\ BTW the flooding damage is just perfect too as i said before i would like to see more flashing lights and pipes bursting when being dc'ed :yep: but what i really want is a fully interactive subsim of the das boot movie with all the video scenes :rotfl: whoops im day dreaming again wakey wakey

[Marhkimov]

If we add more u-boat 'armor' or 'HP' to zones.cfg, will that make any difference?

I would test it myself, but I'm not going to be home until later tonight. Anyways, just a thought.

If someone does decide to test it, lets hear the pros and cons...


*I long for the day that we can have 11 hour depth charge attacks... :hmm:
After 3 consecutive tests in 1944, my average DC attacks lasts from 5 to 10 minutes...
2 crushes, 1 ka-BOOM, and a whole lotta' hurtin!'
OUCH! :o

[gouldjg]

Ok I just tried the 500 ft thing to prolong instant death.

Timetraveller had on lock on his program so I could not put the new setting in even If I changed CFG.

I would appreciate if someone who knows how to could just add 200mtrs to maximam crushdephs for this test.


I can set all the compartments to a really high armour and HP but I do not think it will effect hull.

Let me try and report back to you.

[Marhkimov]

First, manually change the .cfg file for each sub to any max depth value of more than 500 meters (for instance, 600 meters), and then use timetraveller's randomizer tool to set up your desired crush depths.

That should do the trick... :up:

[Jungman]

Well, for one YOU are not NOT meant to to survive the U-505 scenario.

I and oRGY have looked at changing the active sonar depths range to give you some chance to escape. Only late year Sword Type 144A was good enough to track your ass 300 meters below wter and in reality it was that and U-505 died.

I have the menu.ini changes. For starers, I am using the one from RuB 1.44. Now I have not made background pics for all four sub types yet. this one file will work on all of them. The only thing is you will not see the name of the comparment above itself. You will still see the Big symbol.

later I am going to add directly onto the background screen TGA by hand the Names back in. I though I could find the TGA that controls the screen pattern but it is all defined in the menu.ini. I am starting with the Type 7 first. But it is ready to go, the basic Menu.ini, from RuB 1.44. You can test all with it. :D Adding the background comparment name is only a small cosmetic addition.

Hedgehogs were very deadly. They sank several very fast in a circle pattern to hit you and several to make sure they could hit you close (carpet bombing). It is not a strong bombs, you could survive one or two but that was it, meant to get you to surface being wounded (then they killed you out of spite :dead: ).

They killed 75% of Uboat and new late war sonar that way. The Uboat was dead until the new XXI came out -a true modern submarine (though it is not model correct in game).

But Sunday is time for family. I am here in USA. Most of you are eight hours ahead of me in time. I'll post this version for gouldjd to use for testing (without the small background compartment change yet, give me tomorrow and you can add it ). :up:

I have another question for gouldjd. Shall we eliminate the Watch Officers menu ability to instantly call all men to the Deck Gun or Flak (even the watch crew)? It is the last mass movement commands via WO command menu?? Very important since it needs to be nerf in diese version auf menu.ini. :hmm:

[gouldjg]

Well tried the armour and high HP and as suspected this does not effect hull integrity.

I have played u505 8 times not and have come to the conclusion that the damage recieved is pretty accurate as Jungman states.

Again I gave them the slip after they detected me when I really wanted to. Thank god for decoys.

Before anyone can look at this issue again we need to find hull integrity controllers which most people suspect is hardcoded.

Anyway my new system should be better but will not rid the hull problem.


Jungman

Yes disable that function if you can. It is quicker hopping to f7 and moving men than it was using that anyway.

I am eagerly awaiting your changes. :up:

I may be able to get this wrapped up for tommorow at midnight uk time. If not it should be definetly tuesday release. Then all thats left is to get feedback of more players and see what the majority wants tweaked.

Like I said. Once we get this framework together, adjusting it should be simpla as Jungman has now provided the rules that everyone has to play bye to see the benefit in the system as a whole.

[Jungman]

gouldjg,

Here is the menu.ini from RuB 1.44 that disables mass clicking and orders. Now it is rough since I do not run RuB, I am getting around to it.

In RuB, the Navigator has no magic way to tell the weather while under water. So that command is delegated to the Watch officer. I agree. I think I will include that into my custom model also.

So in my changes, I hope it works for you. I had distortion on the weather report icon, but expected since I am not running full RuB.

I had to make this beta blind for full pure RuB 1.44. Also no changes to english text is included. I did make some, but I think it is not necesary right now for download. I just call them 'Officers Quarters' and 'Off Duty Quarters'.

You will find only the compartment symbols show up in the crew screen with no name after them. The names for comparments will have to be typed into the background crew screen. It may have to be different for all four model types used in game II, VII, IX, XX. FIXED in the next version.

I did not include a modifed crew screen background with the stations typed back in yet. That takes some time doing it by hand.

I need some feedback in that you are running pure RuB in regards to the commands and mass clicking.

http://rapidshare.de/files/6381852/HolyRuB_menu_1024_768.rar.html

EDIT: I figured out how to add text symbols through the menu.ini interface! :P That means I can add the Compartment names back in without having to mess with the crew screen background TGA. So only one mod will need to be used for all Uboat types. Thank God for small favors...next update soon.

I think I may even figure how to link a symbol back to an action. Would it not be nice to have the stop watch also on the TDC and Navigation map screen and actually have it work!

[gouldjg]

Great work

I will test all this at 5 pm after work.

I think I may even figure how to link a symbol back to an action. Would it not be nice to have the stop watch also on the TDC and Navigation map screen and actually have it work!

I think there will be a hell of a lot of pleased people if that stop watch could be moved to navigation room and tdc. :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

[gouldjg]

I just tried the menu

Great it works.

Now it is just a case of tidying up that screen. I can acually live without the text above compartments but others may prefer the test.

Jungman

Just out of interest,

Would you now know how to limit the ammount of men that could be sent to the repair station.

For example only allow 4 to 5 men in total.

I see emergency repairs really was set for flooding, I can now tweak flooding accorngly .

with 1 man it would take 53 minutes and the compartment would have been full in 60 min.

with 2 it went to 40 min

with 3 it went to 35

so on so on.

When I had eight men in the compartment and the officer it would have been repaired in 4 minutes.

4 minutes is good but I would prefer to get a higher repiar time i.e. 20 min.

I can set the flooding to be close to this figure.

We can have things between minor leak and major leak.

IMHO the repair crew would be much better if only 5 men max were allowed into that compartment.

[Jungman]

I know where the data is that determines the effiecinecy of a given department; you seen it before and wonder what it was for.

I fooled with it before and I can set it were one man gives full effecient or it would take 30 men in the comparment leading it being very hard to increase the effeciency. Then I would change the 'effeciency bar' above that Damage Control dept so it would be more logical.

So 'Yes'. :yep:

Plus I got three of the new TGA alpha with the Text done and they all work with all the Uboats.

Basic.cfg contols minimum number and effeciency points. DC is ?.

[COMPARTMENT]
NumberOfCrew0=15
Interval1_0=7.1
Interval2_0=9.6
Interval3_0=19.7

NumberOfCrew1=6
Interval1_1=3.0
Interval2_1=4.1
Interval3_1=8.5

NumberOfCrew2=9
Interval1_2=4.6
Interval2_2=6
Interval3_2=12.1

NumberOfCrew3=12
Interval1_3=6.1
Interval2_3=7.8
Interval3_3=16

NumberOfCrew4=8
Interval1_4=4.1
Interval2_4=5.3
Interval3_4=11

NumberOfCrew5=10
Interval1_5=5.1
Interval2_5=6.5
Interval3_5=13.7

NumberOfCrew6=7
Interval1_6=3.7
Interval2_6=4.7
Interval3_6=9.7

NumberOfCrew7=5
Interval1_7=2.7
Interval2_7=3.5
Interval3_7=7.3

NumberOfCrew8=3
Interval1_8=1.6
Interval2_8=2.3
Interval3_8=4.65

NumberOfCrew9=4
Interval1_9=2.2
Interval2_9=2.9
Interval3_9=6.1

NumberOfCrew10=14
Interval1_10=6.5
Interval2_10=8.2
Interval3_10=14.3

NumberOfCrew11=2
Interval1_11=1.1
Interval2_11=1.7
Interval3_11=4.1

NumberOfCrew12=1
Interval1_12=0.5
Interval2_12=0.7
Interval3_12=1.1

[gouldjg]

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

So are you saying that we could have the repair compartment set so that even with 8 men, we can reduce their efficiency to the same as 3-5 men.

Can we change the figures to just work the repair station or is this a universal setting that just goes by ammount of men in any compartment?

If you have mastered the crews workrate in each department I suspect much is possible.

It is just a case on what intervals mean and getting a feel for the settings.

So here are my quetions

1. Can we reduce efficiency in the repair station alone so that it does not effect efficiency in other compartments.

2. If a yes to the above could you aim at making the repair compartment reduction to it represents 3 men max. I know quals and other factors will effect them but I do feel this would make the game more dynamic in that area.


3. Do you know what the intervals represent?


4. Just out of pure interest and maybe something for the future. With regards to Depth charges. Is it at all possible to get a longer pause between each drop of a dc.

My thinking here is as follows. The DD are pretty accurate even with the latest tweaks.

Now if I run straight and a DD is above me dropping Dc in my direct path, this game is very unforgiving when you attempt to turn out of his line of dropped DC. I suspect in real life this was the same also.

I would much prefer a slightly longer gap between each drop so should I get hit by the first and mabe second, I may just have that bit more time to have steered out of the path before 3rd and 4th strike. The 3rd and 4th would still be close to u-boat so would would suspect we still feel it.

The above is for gamplay only and to be quite honest I can live with the way it is because I usually time my turns and tactics pretty well.

What do you think?.

Is it just a fact that some players are just not turning their boats good enough when DC run commences? or do you think DC could do with a larger spacing for gameplay reason and to prolong attacks.

If it could be done, I would consider calling a vote on the issue.

Maybe its just a case that people need to play with more attention.

All in all I think we are gaining considerable ground on the overall issue.

Well done all.

p.s. I have took the day of work so am working on damage settings and crew management all day. I am just reinstalling the game and trying new beta settings out from fresh install.

[Jungman]

:sunny:

Here is a way to limit crew effeiciency. I had to crawl through that, there is no reason to it. Make these changes to Basic.cfg. now qualification is very important, and the difernce in rank of a green recruit and chief petty officer makes much more differrence.

Basic.cfg ; Damage Control

;NumberOfCrew5=10
;Interval1_5=5.1
;Interval2_5=6.5
;Interval3_5=13.7

NumberOfCrew5=10
Interval1_5=21
Interval2_5=26
Interval3_5=53

I multiply by four. Damage control can hold 10 people plus Officer. Now these guys will not even pick up a wrench hardly. Even at 1945 full rank, full rested, officer with repair skill it takes 10 seaman to get the bar even close to half. No officer with repair skill, it is about 1/4. And if tired, forget it; around zero.

So adjust to where you want it.

Just now seen your post. Yes this above affects only the Damage Control comparment. They all can be individually adjusted.

I can change DD drop interval I am sure, it is in the DC.sim file. But I must ask, are you using my SonarDC Mod? It nerfs the DD blind by 200 meters or 150m in straight ahead and in angle. Plus the DC are set for 20m or 15m blast depending on what versiion you have.

Another one to hex out is a combo me and oRGy had/making. Set the active sonar to limitation from crap -100m depth to -300m deep for late war best active sonar. Even nerf the Hydrophones to -200m to -300m just to give you a chance to escape and break the lock.

Is it just a fact that some players are just not turning their boats good enough when DC run commences? or do you think DC could do with a larger spacing for gameplay reason and to prolong attacks.


People need to learn how to evade. I was killed alot starting out, but now I hardly ever get hit. I would not want to change DC drop rate. Nerf the active sonar as in IuB depth also would be my way out of it by going deep.

Well, I been awake for the last 12 hours, I must be getting some sleep. 4:00 am here. Play with those Damage Control values to get a decent play. A person can also change how much qualification plays into it too.

[gouldjg]

Thanks Jungman

You get a good nights sleep.

Its morning here lol.

I always thought RUB already included you DC files. I will have to look into these at some point later today.

If there is something already out that effect the DD runs i.e. your work. I think I will go with that option.

Yep forget the spacing. At the end of the day we all have to learn how to evade.

I never usually go into emergency reverse etc and I know many captains have various reverse tactics as well as just waiting for last few seconds and turning out at certain angles.

I like the idea of the 200m lose contact mod for DD.

Anyway back onto the issue

I will spend some time today putting all changes into mod to see if this damage can be improved.

If you then have the power, which I am sure you do, we could look at qualifications and workrates for other compartments at a later date.


As it stands now I have already tweaked qualification effects a little but we can discuss this more later on in the development.

Speak later

[Jungman]

Yes, I am dying because of pressure... For a third test, I sank the HMS Coouragous and tried really really hard to get away. I went down to 200m and the DD's still found me with no trouble at all. It started raining DC's and one lucky shot brought me down to 64%. After that, it was an agonizing crush to death.



that is going to be fixed soon. The DD can see you with active sonar equally at 50m depth or at 300m depth (well almost). The model is a joke. Actually it is half the max distance but no bore you with math.

oRGy had an idea and I agree, change the depth of the active sonar units used by the different DD and the time of year in war so you can go deep to escape, and they have a much harder time detecting you. Only a late war DD using a good active sonar should rain death upon you down to 300 metes deep. You will pay attention to what DD is the escort before you try something nasty.

It will also give you a chance for a surprise convoy attack by laying low deep in ocean then rise and and blow them to hell -then run fast away. :|\

Coming soon. A new version of SonarDC with help from oRGy. I think you will really be pleased. It will give you a decent reason to go deep and chance kiling yourself in order to break the death lock upon your sub and sneak away. Good luck. :arrgh!:

[gouldjg]

Jungman

Some feedback that may be of interest to you with regards to the menu changes.

I have been testing the menu file you posted.

I think it causes crashes on exiting the game for me.

I have RUB 1.44 installed

Did hours of problem tracking as I first thought i might of messed with something I should not have, It seems to comes down to this file. The mission takes longer to load and the progress bar sometimes gets stuck at the bottom end for a while.

I am going to install a vanilla game without RUB and test again.

If no crashes occur we must be having a RUB problem when I place this file in.

Will report back in 30 min even though I know you are asleep.

[gouldjg]

Just to confirm

There is definetly a compatibility problem when using this menu file.

Its a shame really.

Any Ideas?

I am going to try that interval setting as you suggested because if we can control crew efficiency from there, then the penalty issues do not need to be as severe anymore.

At the end of the day all we want is a good management that goes hand in hand with a good damage model.

To get better damage its all about reducing the effect of the crew without interfering with the running of other compartments.

More tests are needed and I have a few ideas.


I am actually hoping that your menu works on your system and its just a matter of the changes being made for each mod version. But thats a matter for you to decide as your the only one who can do those different versions.

If your DC changes go to plan things again will get better also.

Will report later

I have got the six quick post stations disabled with no crashes now as I am just changing the lines myself. Hopefully the other six compartments will not bring back the crash.

I have a funny feeling this could be solved but am not banking on it just yet.

I also have a funny feeling this is why some people seem to have problems in the cre management after loading 2 mods together that each use menu ini file.

[Marhkimov]

Yes, if we could get the repair compartment to not be so draining on the men while still reducing overall repair effectiveness, that would be good. :rock:


-MAybe jungman's menu file is crashing on you because jungman did not edit from a stock menu file. It could be conflicting with a mod that either you or he have installed. A few mods that use the menu .ini file are timetraveller's slideout mod, oRGy's IUB mod, and RUb... To fix a crash, you might have to see whether those mods are included in the menu file or not.

[Jungman]

The crash is because I do not use RuB.

Changes to the RuB from stock (WO reports) is distorted as mentioned above post I made earlier.

It does not crash on me using stock game. But the version I gave you is RuB version with the same changes as stock game.

You will need a stock menu.ini that I use to test with a stock game.

RuB menu.ini is not the same. It has changes that screw up the command menu of the Wath Officer. I had to make the RuB menu.ini blind. I am not surprised. You will need a copy of my vanilla menu.ini.

I will need to upload it later, tired. Just checked in a bit to see what is up.

I also got a random crash on exit using RuB menu.ini in my set up.

I have no crashes upon exit using stock menu.ini and stock game.

I think it is in the changes made to the command to the Watch officer menu. It is distorted for weather report and I did not compensate for it.

As marhkimov just said. The RuB Menu.ini is different mod and not compatible 100%.

It can all be fixed, but small changes need to be made for each mod conflict to changes done to each menu.ini. It all can be fixed for different versions. So tired. I'll be back later (It wil be middle of night for you :zzz: ). Try out the Damage Control reduction. ;)

[gouldjg]

Hi Jungman

Sussed the crashes by tweaking all day.

End result is as follows for rub changes.

Step one = disable those six buttons as you explained. Worked fine :D

Step 2 =

[G67 I653]
Type=1031;Stat bmp array I found this to be very stable over the past 2 hours.
ItemID=0x6700005B
ParentID=0x67000000
Pos=880,465,65,38
Color=0xFFFFFFFF
Materials=8
Display=2;Linear
Mat 0=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 1=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 2=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 3=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 4=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 5=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 6=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
Mat 7=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
MatFlags=0x1
TexFmt=0x9
Font=5
Text=250
TextPosFlags=0x2
TextFlags=0x10
CheckBoxWidth=0
StatesColors=0xFF, 0xFF, 0xAA5800FF, 0xDD5800FF

Now I was thinking about the text above compartments. Sod the text, put some photos on the main background. What do you think i.e. Das boot compartments :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You can also get rid of the now useless 6 buttons and it would be fantastic to place the stopwatch there. If that turns out too hard then a nice dark picture of ourselves in a frame.

Just wild ideas but all possible.

Now that that is solved we should be able to tweak different versions or show guys how to.

Bye the way, what do i change to get the orders off the watch officer as you said earlier.


Now those problems are gone I can regain pace with the damage as I promised. I have been doing all sorts of tweaks to see if I could reduce hull integrity damage whilst underwater.

I wanted to get this so we allways die by sinking to crush depths but I am amfraid we will have to work with what we have got.

I have just checked the interval settings out on a normal rub i.e. no crew penalties for that compartment.

You are right, it does not seem to affect other compartments.

I really want to nail down what each interval means though.

Interval 1, 2, or 3, one of these could be damage related only thus we could tweak other compartments.

What is everyones guess on this.

Anyway I will report back later with a RUB 1.44 version beta 2 packed for testing.

I forgot to ask, what version of the game are you playing? Is it vannilla HT etc.

The good news at the end of the day is we are back on track.

That crashing was really confusing me

Back later :up:

[gouldjg]

Vesion 2 is now available at 1st post.

I have to say, I have never had so much of a buzz since first buying this game.

2 hours in 505 mission and it rocked :rock: :rock: :rock:

I got away by staying silent though I had slow floods. Never even had to use a decoy.

The DD gave me a hard time at first and at one point I thought I was finnished.

Anyway once I slipped the DD, I surfaced only to be later bombed by planes. Boy was that fun to fix and it did take some time which is what I wanted.

I think were are getting close to a great system. :D

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Cool... LOL I was just about to ask if you had an updated version. :cool:

BTW... I reeeally don't like the RUb 1024 ini arrangement... will a version be available soon that doesn't require it?

[Marhkimov]

Yay! About the release of v2, That's the best news I've heard all day long!

And 'cohesion' is dead-on perfect! I couldn't have come up with a better term! :up: :up:


Quick question: v2 is still a beta version, correct?

[gouldjg]

Cool... LOL I was just about to ask if you had an updated version. :cool:

BTW... I reeeally don't like the RUb 1024 ini arrangement... will a version be available soon that doesn't require it?

We should be able to do different versions of the 1024 ini. :up:

An important note.

Remeber this is just a framework and soon a number different versions will be released.

Jungman discovered a way to reduce efficiency in repair compartment.

It is a simple question of entering 3 numbers.

That alone help damage loads but I did have to tweak all the compartments and a good majority of subsystems.


Now we all have to look at both the balance on damage.

The fatigue system as a whole.

Crew management in emergencies.

I have to say that I felt a little bit more attached to each man now that I am foreced to have to pick him and pander him.

I can imagine some grief if I should lose any men in campaign.

have fun

[Jungman]

"Type=1031"

That is the main tweak to disable that compartment. Original is 1033. Anything 1031, 1030 will disable it.

"Bye the way, what do i change to get the orders off the watch officer as you said earlier."

That is where the random crash on exit may occur since RuB menu.ini is different. That is why it is necessary to go through and manually see what needs to be done for each install. I have the Visibility install made by Ortega/Rulle34/IuB and my custom changes. But I never changed the menu.ini from stock.

Thus it is better to show you how to edit your paticular menu.ini using RuB than me giving you something I cannot see.

For stock, these are the English commands for the Watch officer. One of them could cause a crash since the Watch Officer now gives the weather report instead of the Navigation Officer. The text menu.ini is different in this respect. Can you try it out for yourself, I do not get crashes with vanilla menu.ini.

I did make clear TGA with the compartment names (not released), but if people are happy without it, I am surprised. At least the symbol still shows above the stations.

This is from the EN_MENU.TXT note it is different from RuB because a extra weather report command added, which may lead to a crash upon complete game exit. I used these text ID number to track them down in the menu.ini. There you can disalbe them by any means necessary. As I did I used.

EN_MENU.TXT

;Watch officer
2930=Choose deck gun target
2931=Torpedo attack
2932=Crew on deck
2933=Weapons management
2934=Deck Gun
2935=Flak Gun
2936=Reports
2937=Nearest ship
2938=Nearest merchant
2939=Nearest warship
2940=Recommanded target
2941=Ship identification
2942=Solution
2943=Fire torpedo
2944=Man the deck gun
2945=Man the flak gun
2946=Man the deck & flak gun
2947=Watch crew
2948=Fire at will
2949=Hold fire
2950=Fire at short range
2951=Fire at medium range
2952=Fire at long range
2953=Aim for hull
2954=Aim for command deck
2955=Aim for weapons
2956=Aim for waterline
2957=Fire at will
2958=Hold fire
2959=Short range
2960=Medium range
2961=Long range
2962=Target fighters
2963=Target bombers
2964=Target any aircraft
2965=Engage closing targets
2966=Engage any targets
2967=Contacts
2968=Nearest visual contact

To get rid of Watch Officer quick command "crew on deck" search menu.ini for '=2932' string. Find this:

[G3F I98]
Name=&>WA Crew on deck
Type=1030;Button 1032 ------> I changed from 1032 to 1030. disabled.
ItemID=0x3F0A0003
ParentID=0x3F0A0000
Pos=27,-1,26,26
Materials=4
Display=0;No stretch
Mat 0=data/menu/gui/layout/MainOrders.tga
Crop 0=0.105469,0.210938,1,1
Mat 1=data/menu/gui/layout/MainOrders.tga
Crop 1=0.105469,0.210938,1,1
Mat 2=data/menu/gui/layout/MainOrders.tga
Crop 2=0.105469,0.210938,1,1
Mat 3=data/menu/gui/layout/MainOrders.tga
Crop 3=0.105469,0.210938,1,1
MatFlags=0x1
TexFmt=0x9
Font=1
TextFlags=0x0
StatesColors=0xB0B0B0FF, 0xFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF
ToolTipText=2932 ------>text found

Changing the Type from a button 1032 to something else such as 1030 static bmp will disable it. Or maybe change it to 1031 in case of crash. These maybe different between stock menu.ini and RuB.ini.

Do this for each other commands left.

As for intervals, the ratios to crew numbers tend to give the break point curve for something. like minimum number for a diesel engine to operate, or how much bonus you get for 'over qualifiy' full a compartment. I guess.

"You can also get rid of the now useless 6 buttons "

Yes I agree, just have it reference a blanK TGA instead of Crew_Icon.tga. It will show nothing. Or maybe easier just rename the type from 1030 to 1031. That should put it out.

Are you using changes to 'Intervals' in basic.cfg to change the crew effeciency in Damage Control as outlined in previous post?

EDIT: I see that RUB and Stock en_MENU.TXT is the same for these five Watch officer commands. It must be gone through one at a time for RuB install in menu.ini. remember, one of these is now the 'weather report' and will maybe cause a crash upon exit. Since I do not have it installed, you must search it out and disable one at a time by above method.

I am going to make a second pure install and use RuB 1.44 only and your mod (plus a few favorites such as my Dark Crew Screen F7 Mod to make it easier on the eyes for night attacks, just cosmetic).

Therefore I will have you mod only and RuB; so testing will make more sense in aiding me.

[gouldjg]

Nice one Jungman


I will consider disabling the watch commands but now that the other buttons have all been disabled I think it may just be a matter of checking if there is anyway to cheat the system coef I set out.

I do not think there is really any way to cheat it as I have set the penalty fo swapping to any compartment to be higher than that cup of coffee factor i.e. the small boost. Now if i went to the bow quarters and then straight to the torp I will lose out.

I am going to wait and see what the feedback is like before moving on this.

I will post my disabling setting for rub tommorow, its almost midnight for me.

I was starting to see the patterns in menu ini as I spent so much time trouble shooting the crashes. 1031 seemed to solve the RUB issues anyway.


Do you happen to know if I can paste photos on the crew background?. I want to get some pics fom uboat.net and shrink and paste the compartment pictures where the names should have been etc.

I will get rid of the six buttons and put something in their place mabe a little text with average DC sink times etc.

I think it would be a good idea to inform Kaa as how to make repair crew hopeless without losing individual crew fatigue.

He is working on another system that is based on a longer fatigue model i.e. weeks.

Now that we have the basic framework, I can help him with his should he need any help.

His model actually sounds quite good and will work with new damage thanks to your discovering intervals.

On a personal note I actually like having to pander my crew on the 24 hr & during battles and the idea of having to watch them in career mode over long trips sounds like my cup of tea. It kills those minutes waiting for the DD to turn and run again.

At the end of the day I now feel confident at doing a Vannilla version and a RUB version. And for those who want the damage but want to stay on Beery's fatigue model, this could also be arranged.

Anyway time for bed

[Jungman]

I will consider disabling the watch commands but now that the other buttons have all been disabled I think it may just be a matter of checking if there is anyway to cheat the system coef I set out.


I understand. It is not as nessesary to stop mass movement of crew using the new coefficients. It would allow one version to work on both RuB and vanilla SH3. I had these commands custom 'hot keyed' to get their arsche up quick and man the flak guns when airplanes are spotted.



Do you happen to know if I can paste photos on the crew background?.

Yes, I ready did it. The names.tga I made do that essentially. But the method tomake them show is a different tweak. Example:

[G67 I653]
Type=1030;Check box 1033
ItemID=0x6700005B
ParentID=0x67000000
Pos=880,465,65,38
Color=0xFFFFFFFF
Materials=1
Display=0;Linear
Mat 0=DATA/Menu/Data/bow_torpedo.tga ;adds in the Bow Torpedo name tga.
;Mat 1=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
;Mat 2=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
;Mat 3=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
;Mat 4=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
;Mat 5=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
;Mat 6=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
;Mat 7=DATA/Menu/Data/back.tga
MatFlags=0x1
;TexFmt=0x9
;Font=5
;Text=250 ;bow torpedo
;TextPosFlags=0x2
;TextFlags=0x10
;CheckBoxWidth=0
;StatesColors=0xFF, 0xFF, 0xAA5800FF, 0xDD5800FF

I just place my bow_torpedo.tga into the DATA/Menu/Data folder. I made the tga from scratch. Give me a symbol picture and I can give you one to try. ;) But they must be small, there is not alot of space above many of the comparments.

[Jungman]

This is odd. Should not the alble seaman be more qualified than a seaman?

[CREW_0] ;SEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.2 ---->this higher than an Able Seaman??
Hp=10
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=0

[CREW_1] ;ABLESEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.1 ---->less than seaman rank??
Hp=11
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=10

[CREW_2] ;LEADINGSEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.1
Hp=12
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=30

[CREW_3] ;PETTYOFFICER
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.2
Hp=13 -----> same except this.
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=50

[CREW_4] ;CHIEFPETTYOFFICER
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.2
Hp=14 ---> same except this.
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=100

[CREW_5] ;CHIEFBOATSWAIN
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.2 ---> should be higher with rank.
Hp=15 ----> same except this.
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=150

[CREW_6] ;SUBLIEUTENANT
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.3
Hp=16
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=200

[CREW_7] ;LIEUTENANTJR
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.4
Hp=17
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=250

[CREW_8] ;LIEUTENANTSR
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.8
Hp=18
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=300

Since the efficeincy is 'fixed' now, I would like to see rank play more of a part as it was in stock game for qualification.

As now, only the HP goes up alittle with rank. So why ever really promote a petty officer to Chief? :-?

The three intervals could correspond to these three rank steps for each class. I notice in stock game, 10 Chief Seaman in Damage Control will outdo 10 green seaman in effectiveness. The qualif=1 to 1.3 increase in rank. This should be examed. I think the progression should be put back in somewhat.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Oooh... good catch Jungman.

[Jungman]

Here is how to remove the box at bottom left of screen. This is for Surface Cruise Mode I think.

[G67 I673]
Type=1031;Stat bmp array
ItemID=0x67000300
ParentID=0x67000000
Pos=731,247,32,32
Color=0xFFFFFFFF
Materials=1 ;4
Display=2;Linear
Mat 0=data\menu\data\back.tga ------> change to this.
;Crop 0=0,0,0.25,0.125 -------------> comment out.
;Mat 1=data\menu\data\crewicon.tga -------------> comment out.
;Crop 1=0.25,0,0.25,0.125-------------> comment out.
;Mat 2=data\menu\data\crewicon.tga -------------> comment out.
;Crop 2=0.5,0,0.25,0.125-------------> comment out.
;Mat 3=data\menu\data\crewicon.tga -------------> comment out.
;Crop 3=0.75,0,0.25,0.125-------------> comment out.
MatFlags=0x1
TexFmt=0x5
Drag=false
BmpState=0
NeedFocus=true
SelOne=true
IdGroup=0
StatesColors=0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF
ToolTipText=423 ; Surface Attack Mode box

Glad to see the Watch command orders can work as normal using this new version 2. No need to remove the WA menu commands. The penalty will be apllied if you assign "Man the Deck Gun" order.

Maybe a bug. :o I notice NO decrease for moving a man into the Stern torpedo room!

I think some kind of description or picture above compartments to help newbies. Plus a change to info box text to describe the reason why the hit upon entering Stern/sleep quarter, and what is with Bow quarter/Mess Hall.

Names for seaman rank is in German, that may be on purpose, I'm new to full RuB.

I really think the petty officers and rank should give better effeciency rating (qualif=1; 1.1; 1.2; 1.4) as was in stock game. Other than a small health increase, why ever care about better ranked seaman classes?


UPDATE: Found the bug for Stern Torpedo room. :know: It should be the same as Bow Torpedo, I assume. Basic.cfg

;comp8 Stern Torpedo
RegularFactor80=0.01 --------> should be 0.1 same as Bow Torp
RegularFactor81=0.01 --------> should be 0.1 same as Bow Torp
SpecificFactor80=0.01
SpecificFactor81=0.01
BadWeather8=0.2


Also I suggest a higher 'bad weather hit' for being in the diesel room running on the surface in bad weather. Harder to control Uboat engine due to rough waves and rocking.

[Marhkimov]

Wow! Jungman, you're doing a great job finding all of these flaws! Keep it up man! :up:

[glenno]

:damn: How do you make the WO automatically go to the bridge when surfacing. Please for the love of god .

[Kpt. Lehmann]

:damn: How do you make the WO automatically go to the bridge when surfacing. Please for the love of god .

I feel your pain my friend. :shifty:

[Jungman]

How do you make the WO automatically go to the bridge when surfacing. Please for the love of god

Well, that is because the higher ups let the young boys go up on deck first to see if they get killed first while the Watch Officer hides in the bathroom! :rotfl:

Seriously though, maybe I can find it. it is tied to the surface/underwater state change. I think it is hardcoded.

Officers are not programed to move automaticaly to fill an area. But the WA will move his arsche off the deck into the sub when diving. He goes for bow quarter first, else if filled the bow torpedo room. Gives me a clue to solve it. But then he may always stay deck even under water.....

Notice the Petty Officer with a Watch qualification will move automatic first to above deck. Another clue it is tied to.

[gouldjg]

Hi all

Thanks for picking up on those errors.

I will correct from 5pm today UK time.

Lets just confirm some things then!

[CREW_0] ;SEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80 are we all happy with this (it shows how tired crew get maximum) I could play with this figure and the intervals to get quals more influential as jungman states i.e. Interval adjustments.
FatigueStep=0.1 I think we can keep this as it is.
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.2 We want to make quals more influential by playing with intervals for each department.
Hp=10 I should correct HP
Wounded=-0.02 Are we happy with morale as shown below.
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=0


I will try and get rid of those buttons later. I would prefer a darker crew screen as jungman states.

I can put explanation in compartment descriptions (It would be great if lots of text can fit in here i.e. the text box has the same scroll features.)


I will correct the fatigue settings in Coef and look at more realistic sailing. I need feedback on times here guys. Remember this model is a 24 hr system.

Can we all have play with damage games i.e. taunt a DD and try early subs etc.?

Can someone please do a trip accross on a campaign and report conditions that you found. i.e. is the 24hrs close to mark of do more adjustments in times need to be made?

Can someone play on the deck gun and anti air and report back. I would prefere the Non rub deck gun times now that we can be detered in other ways i.e. weather and energy drains.

I need to find out about the floatability of the sub. Taking into account that we could have a solid 5 min leak at times. How is it working for you guys.

If other modders are playing with this, have a go at tweaking and if you find something that improves, report back.

Thanks all

[Jungman]

Here is a dark screen mod already made by me.

Dark Crew Screen Mod

http://rapidshare.de/files/6053428/Dark_Crew_Screen.rar.html

I am not sure what those intervals have to do with qualifications. AFASIK playing with the crew and stock, with qualification set for 1.2 makes a green seaman just as good as a Chief petty officer. Maybe do both, I am trying increases of 1; 1.1; 1.2; 1.3. Seaman cannot get qualifications, but a higher rank seaman should do better somehow or else why waste time on their promotions? Makes them more expendable. Against the mods intention where each man cares.

The stock game has a gradual increase in qualif effect through the ranks. I expect a Sr. Cheif Petty Officer to do a better job than a green Seaman. I would let him lose more fatigue before he needs to retire as you say. Maybe base his staying power on rank.

This is not big changes, I just feel higher ranked officer should have more moral and more staying stamina. This is looking at it not having anything to do with repair times. The Intervals is not understood by me very well yet.

Do you want to know how long a crew can man a deck gun? I notice that their endurance will drop to zero (as normal) in combat and refuse to fight. I think you mean how long they can stay on station not in combat?. I think a higher ranked crew should stay on station a bit longer.

Wounded=-0.02 Are we happy with morale as shown below.
Dead=-0.05


You would think a big morale hit would occur if someone died. So if two crewmen die, the morale hit is only 0.1 drop? How long does it take to get back? I guess if minimum is 0.3 morale, starting with 0.6 morale; having six crewman die before it would cause alot of panic low morale on the sub. Maybe this is OK? Seems a little low. :hmm:

I expect again lower rank and class to panic faster due to low morale. Older guys have seen it all and have less moral drop. I am trying to say that crew class and rank should matter more, but not over doing it.

[Jungman]

I took some damage from an airplane bomb. With no one in the Stern Torpedo room, it would take a full damage control team to fix 14 minutes of minor damage to torp tube 5.

Now if I place a bare minimum to fix of two seaman into the same stern room, and no Damage control team working, they could fix it in 7 minutes.

Odd that the two guys in the Stern Torp station by themselves could fix it twice as fast as the whole DC team with an Officer repair skill included. :o

Anyway to stop men in the compartments from doing self repairs? :hmm:

Allow only the Repair team to do it?

I also notice skills for petty officors such as qualified for torpedo reload has almost no more effect barely more than a regular seaman. So qualifications are pratically worthless for petty officers. :( ??

[Marhkimov]

Anyway to stop men in the compartments from doing self repairs? :hmm:

Allow only the Repair team to do it?

I was also thinking along the same lines, only I thought that they should be rendered less effective at repairing, but still capable.

[gouldjg]

Right I am back home now.

Finnished work.

Jungman I will set some changes to try and get a better balance.

I will post this in a in 2 hours and explain next to each change.

I will set the qual effects more closer to stock game and do a quick test.

I will need to play with intervals and see if there is a pattern.

You too noticed that double reduction in repairs one another man enters. I think this is by the ammount of men put in a compartment as well as fatigue and qualification. It also does it in the repair station. I will look into it as I would also love only the repair crew to do repairs.

Is your dark screen mod available anywhere else?. Rapidshare bloody hates me.



All in all I am just spending some time setting the balances right now.

p.s. can you locate the stopwatch in the menu ini. I want to try a theory that may get the stop watch on other screens.

Maybe its time to establish what exactly each line in the menu ini relates to.

If someone one day takes the time to post the file with text showing what relates to what, I am going to try and exploit it i.e. I am going to do a search on previous work and discoveries.

Anyway I will get to work

[gouldjg]

Anyway to stop men in the compartments from doing self repairs? :hmm:

Allow only the Repair team to do it?

I was also thinking along the same lines, only I thought that they should be rendered less effective at repairing, but still capable.

Its all a matter of finding what other factors effect repair and if we can locate those triggeres.

I know that the crew compartments do not get repaired by the crew. I also noticed that I can put in a - figure (positive effect) to regain energy and it will stop at the top.

If I put a - figure (positive effect) on other compartments the bar just grows and grows. This is the mens fatigue i am talking about.

We will crack it one day :yep:


Could there be anything in menu ini that can be tweaked?. Maybe in the sub cfgs I will look.

What we are looking for is anything else that shows difference between the crew rest quarters and a torpedo room. There might just be a previously unexplained number present in one and not the other.

[Jungman]

Is your dark screen mod available anywhere else?. Rapidshare bloody hates me.

Terrapin site is hosting it also. Dark_Crew_Screen Mod.

http://U-Boot.RealSimulation.com

I cannot hot link to it, you must go there and have fun navigating it to find it, it is confusing the first time looking for something. I can e-mail it to you too, if you have an account that wil accept attached files, most will not.

Making the stop watch appear on screen is not the problem, people have done it. it is just that it is not interactive functional.

I got mine sitting on a desk. A Swiss made clean sweep. Maybe it is a Rolex? :smug: It is from WW II or Korean War 1950's.

I like doing it the old fashion way manually just like they did without calculators. Making a new one for Dark_TDC with smaller nomograph, the one I made has the large version.

I also compare the two compartments and cannot figure out what causes it to be differrent. You cannot double click on it to switch crew either. I know it has no 'progress bar' effeciency across the top. I look in Basic intervals to see anything.

I notice that you can barely operate the Deck and Flak gun for a litle bit before they tire and refuse to work the station even though there is no ! above their head. So you need a fresh men up there always.This because qualifications are pratically worthless.

I am looking to find to disable self repair by crew in the compartments. Only a Crisis Team. Intervals may have something to do with it. Else it is hardcoded. I hope you are correct that self repair does not occur in quarters. I thought it did as long as you have men in there. I need to check that out.

[/quote]

[gouldjg]

Have a look into this theory Jungman

[CREW_5] ;CHIEFBOATSWAIN
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.60
FatigueStep=0
Coef = Compartment effect Morale=0.3 If this is correct either the coef setting in basic = regular = morale etc or interval effects are the key.
Coef = Compartment effect Fatigue=0.3
QualEffect=4
Hp=14
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=200

So we have in theory

Specific factor = Fatigue or in fact it could be morale. It would be fatigue
Regular Factor = Morale or fatigue. Maybe thats why it seems we can get an instant penalty. Try the morale calculation for say a death and see if the maths works. Maybe thats why morale hits in lumps.

The above could all be wrong though

Then lets look at intervals

From 2 tests I have been doing, it looks like rank has no bearing on interval settings and vice versa.

I set 1, 50, and a 1000. Now rank should have shown up a difference but it never.

Could it not be that those figures relate to something else i.e. the workrates or energy drain per compartment per interval. I.e. a interval being a either state of engines running, or combat.

I think it may be best to test more trials in another compartment rather than repair.

I am rubbish at maths thas why I posted it so a genius can suss it out or give me a lead and I investigate.

I am however a problem solver and cannot get my teeth out of pet projects.

I think I know what you mean about the stop watch i.e. the second hand etc is coded elsewhere.

[Jungman]

I think I found where the hull integrety is hidden at? :hmm:
Look inside Submarine/'subname'.zon

For the type 7c, it has health points as 250, armor level 25, crash depth 346, crash speed 2. I think this is the parent number refered to by the -1 in zones.cfg.

Type 2a the HP is only 150, crash depth 200, armor 15 etc.

Type XXI is HP 250 armor level 28, crash depth 400...

Do you know about these setting in DATA/Submarine/'subname'/'subname.zon?

Intervals seem to determine a ratio so if the compartment such as a deck gun will operate or needs more men. If it is above interval _3 it gets a bonus fo somekind is a theory.

Try making the Type VIIC HP to 2000 and armor 50 and your hull will have a heck of a time being destroyed??

[gouldjg]

no but your a genius if you have found that out. How do I look into the file i.e. what program do I need.

That could be one of the biggest finds since this game came out.

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

I hope your right as it completely gives us the ability to prolong the instant death screen.

Rock on :up:

[Marhkimov]

oOoooo... hex editing... :roll: :roll: :roll:

I loOoove hex editing... :roll: :roll: :roll:



NOT!

[Jungman]

I am using a scripted hex editor. It automaticaly interpets the hex numbers into readable English. ASHE 2.0 shareware. after expire you can still look and search numbers, but can no longer edit without paying for it. I use a plain hex editor for the dirty job.

Want to try out a sample? You want a higher HP, Armor level, or both for a type 7C to try? It should show up quick.

I think these numbers are refered to in Zones.cfg if the entry is a -1, else the numbers in Zones overirdes these. I do not know.

I knew about these numbers when trying to make airplanes tougher. It seemed to make them into flying fortress.

Give me a number, enable you hull indicator, and see what it does. For science method, should only change one first. say HP from 250 to 2500 for a joke?

http://rapidshare.de/files/6450478/NSS_Uboat7c.zon.html

try this out HP from 250 to 2500. Armor level still at 25.

[gouldjg]

I have sent you my email address in pvt message.

I cannot download more than 1 file a day from rapidshare.

I used to have a list of NTL server names to put into setting to get rid of this but its gone now.

I will try it on both new zones.cfg and on Vannilla with tweaks.

I am so hoping this works :yep:

Man things are getting hot now :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

back to work

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3043/madcomputer4ri6bb.gif

The New Modders Life

[gouldjg]

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

YOU CRACKED IT MATE

Here is my thoughts on the matter.

We need to increase Hull but we do not want to be able to ram DD all day long. Actually if peopl do that anyway they are not worth making mods for.


So we try for a way that please both realism fans and those who want gameplay.


If you want my opinion I would keep the zone armour levels the way they are now as this is where we had most success on subsystems and flooding.

If anything I would maybe consider upping Hull integrity by 120 on each and maybe keeping armour to 25.

The armour level allows more penetration to compartments and subsystems hense more floods from surface attacks.

Obviously I should then compensate by tweaking Zones cfg to match new settings.

I will aim to get a sunken sub by depth crushing i.e. look at all the flooding options i.e. floatability etc. the crew quartes will alway allow a more severe flooding effect as the repair crew do not get help in those areas.

Don't worry about men I will sort and tweak their strenghs etc.

I say lets go by 100 hp increase first as this may just be good enough and not ruin other aspect i.e. ramming etc.

As soon as you can do all subs armour email the files to me and I will set up zones cfg to match.

Now back to crew management,

I think we should still have the decreased repair crew though am open to other options.

I just want it so people are on the edge when forced under the water and getting DC attacked.

Thats the thrill of the game = run for your life if your spotted.

To be quite honest jungman

All this may be better by being called under your New damage Mod.

I have been away and people hate the Hollywood name.

Everyone from all Major mods have respect for your changes to the game.

Most of my mods can be controversial i.e. exploding crew effects to the plotting mod that got poor Beery pure grief by those who could not understand its use.

What do the other testers think.

Option 1 stick with Hollywood

Option 2 Let jungman choose as he has made superb discoveries and is not as prone to mistakes like me.

I say 2, let Jungman decide because maybe the Hollywood name will just not attract as many players to use and enjoy its benefits.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3043/madcomputer4ri6bb.gif

[Marhkimov]

An added 100HP sounds like a reasonable value. As soon as you can release another beta version, I'll help test it! :up:



ya, I think people are misunderstanding the hollywood name.

In fact, this mod has nothing to do with hollywood... :roll:

[gouldjg]

An added 100HP sounds like a reasonable value. As soon as you can release another beta version, I'll help test it! :up:



yes, I think people are misunderstanding the hollywood name.

In fact, this mod has nothing to do with hollywood... :roll:

It all started with the ability to add more special effects to the game. Now it has moved out of that line and is getting too serious to be named Hollywood.

Beacause I aim to play RUB and HT together I want a semi realistic side of the game however there are some things I will change myself i.e. deck gun times.

With regards to the name I will leave that to Jungman to decide.

Maybe people can think of a good all round name that will make people want to try. I am sure word of mouth will gather on this mod thats why I want to be patient and make sure we have done the best one available.

He may just want to produce a mass .zon pack that tweaks all damage setting and leave the rest to individual modders to alter their mods to include. maybe the best option.

Now that crew deficiency is close to being sussed without altering fatigue models i.e. simple changes in basic and zones.cfg files.

Each major mod group should really adapt their fatigue models to accept the changes.

As for me, I still want to try and get a 24 hour system up and running.

I also love the disabled crew buttons as it really effects my gameplay when I forget to man the torpedo stations for reloading asap.

I am going to wait for the .zon files before tweaking the damage again.

In the meantime I think all us beta testers should concentrate o the crew aspects of the mod. We need to discover the best settings so that crew become a pleasure rather than a click and forget.

I know there is a mathmatical calculation between coef and compartments. We need to discover this formula and know what changes what.

At this moment it is a matter of number crunching i.e. timing the model in campaighn.

I have altered the crew basic as follows

please chack to see if any mistakes or discepancies are obvious.


[CREW_0] ;SEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.95
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1
Hp=10
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=0

[CREW_1] ;ABLESEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.90
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=1.5
Hp=11
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=10

[CREW_2] ;LEADINGSEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30
MoraleMax=0.60
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.85
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.4
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=2
Hp=12
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=30

[CREW_3] ;PETTYOFFICER
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.80
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=2.5
Hp=13
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=50

[CREW_4] ;CHIEFPETTYOFFICER
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.75
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=3
Hp=14
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=100

[CREW_5] ;CHIEFBOATSWAIN
MoraleMin=0.40
MoraleMax=0.70
MoraleStep=0.05
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.70
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.3
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=3.5
Hp=15
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=150

[CREW_6] ;SUBLIEUTENANT
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.65
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=3.8
Hp=16
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=200

[CREW_7] ;LIEUTENANTJR
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.60
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=4.3
Hp=17
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=250

[CREW_8] ;LIEUTENANTSR
MoraleMin=0.50
MoraleMax=0.80
MoraleStep=0.1
FatigueMin=0
FatigueMax=0.55
FatigueStep=0.1
CoefMorale=0.2
CoefFatigue=0.1
QualEffect=4.5
Hp=18
Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05
Experience=300

[COMPARTMENT]
NumberOfCrew0=15
Interval1_0=7.1
Interval2_0=9.6
Interval3_0=19.7

NumberOfCrew1=6
Interval1_1=3.0
Interval2_1=4.1
Interval3_1=8.5

NumberOfCrew2=9
Interval1_2=4.6
Interval2_2=6
Interval3_2=12.1

NumberOfCrew3=12
Interval1_3=6.1
Interval2_3=7.8
Interval3_3=16

NumberOfCrew4=8
Interval1_4=4.1
Interval2_4=5.3
Interval3_4=11

NumberOfCrew5=10
Interval1_5=60
Interval2_5=60
Interval3_5=60

NumberOfCrew6=7
Interval1_6=3.7
Interval2_6=4.7
Interval3_6=9.7

NumberOfCrew7=5
Interval1_7=2.7
Interval2_7=3.5
Interval3_7=7.3

NumberOfCrew8=3
Interval1_8=1.6
Interval2_8=2.3
Interval3_8=4.65

NumberOfCrew9=4
Interval1_9=2.2
Interval2_9=2.9
Interval3_9=6.1

NumberOfCrew10=14
Interval1_10=6.5
Interval2_10=8.2
Interval3_10=14.3

NumberOfCrew11=2
Interval1_11=1.1
Interval2_11=1.7
Interval3_11=4.1

NumberOfCrew12=1
Interval1_12=0.5
Interval2_12=0.7
Interval3_12=1.1

Also look at Coef levels though I am now suspecting morale may be tied to Morale but may be wron it might in fact be that morale is tied to the compartment workrates.

All this need looking at for patterns

feel free to add changes to your games and testing them.

[FATIGUE_COEF]
;comp 0
RegularFactor00=0.004
SpecificFactor00=0.003
BadWeather0=0.003
;comp1
RegularFactor10=0.1
RegularFactor11=0.1
SpecificFactor10=0.004
SpecificFactor11=0.002
BadWeather1=0.0002
;comp2
RegularFactor20=0.1
RegularFactor21=0.1
SpecificFactor20=0.004
SpecificFactor21=0.001
BadWeather2=0.0003
;comp3
RegularFactor30=0.05
RegularFactor31=0.001
SpecificFactor30=0.004
SpecificFactor31=0.0
BadWeather3=0.01
;comp4
RegularFactor40=0.001
RegularFactor41=0.05
SpecificFactor40=0.0
SpecificFactor41=0.004
BadWeather4=0.00000001
;comp5
RegularFactor50=0.1
RegularFactor51=0.1
SpecificFactor50=0.01
SpecificFactor51=0.01
BadWeather5=0.2
;comp6
RegularFactor60=-0.01
RegularFactor61=-0.02
SpecificFactor60=-0.009
SpecificFactor61=-0.013
;comp7
RegularFactor70=0.10
RegularFactor71=0.10
SpecificFactor70=-0.015
SpecificFactor71=-0.028
;comp8
RegularFactor80=0.1
RegularFactor81=0.1
SpecificFactor80=0.01
SpecificFactor81=0.01
BadWeather8=0.2
;comp9
RegularFactor90=0.10
SpecificFactor90=0.03
BadWeather9=0.5
;comp10
RegularFactor100=0.15
SpecificFactor100=0.03
BadWeather10=0.5
;comp 11
RegularFactor110=0.01
RegularFactor111=0.01
SpecificFactor110=0.0001
SpecificFactor111=0.0001
BadWeather11=0

Happy Tweaking

[Jungman]

Thanks for all the accolades. :D I am glad I stumbled across that along time ago. never knew what it was about.

A name? Maybe simple. Damage Repair Mod; Repair Damage Mod; Slow Death Mod; Damage Mod; Repair Mod; somthing that is simple and to the point. People will look for those words when scanning years from now through tons of mods wondering what they do by their name.

What exactly do you want me to change in the sub zone files exactly?

You have the most obvious Health Points and Armor level.

I asume leave armor alone. Increase HP by same amount for all, or a percent change?

I like the better qualification progression; are you still keeping the Cohesion effects for each comparment or is this being revamped?

Here is the values for HP and Armor for each submarine modeled.

Type, Health, Armor, Crash_depth

IIA: 150, 22, 214

IID: 150, 22, 221

VIIB: 250, 25, 315

VIIC: 250, 25, 346

IXB: 300, 25, 303

IXC: 300, 25, 325

IXD2: 320, 25, 330

XXI: 450, 28, 400

So exactly what values do you wish for me to change? :hmm: I would start with the HP only. You can get a feel of the effects by looking at the diferent boat HP.

[Marhkimov]

If it were up to me, I'd try:

Type, health, armor

IIA: 200, 22

IID: 200, 22

VIIB: 350, 25

VIIC: 350, 25

IXB: 400, 25

IXC: 400, 25

IXD2: 420, 25

XXI: 480, 28

And maybe leave the crash depths unaltered. I don't imagine these values would give us too many consequences. Even if someone were crazy enough to try and ram a DD on the surface, he'd probably get sunk before he could get close enough to try it. The flood modelling would take care of that...

Well, let's wait and see what gouldjg wants... :sunny:

[Nippelspanner]

If you need a Zones.cfg

Ive made a new "Hollywood" kind mod by my self, but with the goal of realism, not hollywood ;)
i guess ive modified everything in this config. its still beta but the german community likes it so far and it adds a bit more realism to sh3. all the systems getting more damage by now. the diesels, the periscopes, the pump, everything...

if you want to use it with this mod or better "Breakthrough" feel free, it maybe saves work for you guys?

http://dl5.rapidshare.de/files/6369725/95917634/Zones.rar

[Jungman]

Thanks, I will check it out. I am too going for realism with a flair. The changes made have this effect.

There is more chance for systems to get destroyed, have more causalties and wounded. Much more flooding. And much longer repairs. You can die by sinking past crush death from the hull giving in, but check this out, it took me almost three long minutes of the drawn out death screen where my lights flicker on/off, steam pipes start to blow, water flood, noise all over. Instead of dying in a few seconds, It took a few minutes for me to die. Very entertaining. :P

I still get killed quick on the surface, one hit by a DD took 20% hull off. An airplane bomb took 50% hull. DC charges are just as deadly, if they hit close to you, dead is dead. A DC has enough damage to overkill you anyway to make up for the extra Health Points I added to the Submarines.zon file.

I had once were I sunk to the ocean bottom 109m. The DD left the scene from after two DC hits. I had to spend almost an HOUR real time trying to fix the flooding, take care the wounded, move the dead crew. I had most systems destroyed or damaged severely, I had to use all my ballast and one electric engine left to get to the surface. I was in no shape to fight war anymore so I sail home. I lost half my fuel anyway. Almost ran out of air.

Then a surprise airplane two hours later caught me on surface, :o I could not dive, a DD showed up after playing dodge the bomb and got hit, started sinking anyway from flooding, I was in a VIIB my hull at 48% once I went past somewhere past 100 meters the lights start to flicker, half my crew already died earlier so not enough people to pump the flood water out.

I sank down more trying to go forward to keep the sub up....then water pipes exploded inside the command room, noise screaming (tied into the wav files for sound effects), I hit 230m after about 2.5 minutes once past 100m taking pressure damage. At 230m I finially died. :hulk:

So you see this is a working model that extends the death sequence by a few minutes and more, you got some time to get back up to the top, if not you die slow and painfully. :arrgh!:

I think we could call this version the Die Hard Mod for the movie with Bruce Willis in it. :rotfl: That was a 'Hollywood' movie. This is much more fun to play now. :yep: I did make changes to some crew concepts from gouldjd to fit my idea. It is really minor stuff, it is when the combat start is where it shines. I made the 'fatigue' system more simple somewhat.

[Marhkimov]

Die Hard Mod

Neverminding that it is also a 'hollywood' movie, that is one of the catchiest titles I have ever come across...

Shoot, gouldjg... Jungman has not only helped to perfect your system, but he has also managed to sell it! :lol: :up:

[gouldjg]

Good Morning guys


Jungman

That story is cool and that is what players wanted all along.

I supect we could at least suvive one direct run into path of DC and although critical we get to watch the men die and flooding for a while.

I say go with it.

By the way what level did you st the hp for that test. Was is 100 or by 50.


Die Hard is a cool name,

Zones cfg will need a major tweak to simulate the changes and put more work on repairs. I want some things set that cannot be repaired after a severe bashing. I can do this quite fast when the .zon files are done for each sub.

what do you think about the casualty rate.? did it seem good or do the men now need slightly higher HP to get more injuries and less deaths.

Intervals could maybe be slightly tweaked so that qualification and rank play a bigger part in the game.


Show me your changes in that department.

In the mean time I am going to do some timing on the fatigue rates on normal cruise and by following a convoy to see if there are major differences.

I will also test some weather effects.

This is starting to become ready for a release version once we all come to some form of aggreement on each change.

I have posted my tweaks from last night, we need to decide what to go with and what to change.


I will speak later after work or use work pc to discus further.

Well done guys

I would start collecting some of your best sceenies to use for the release thread.

Also any tips for play etc.

I need to write up the compartment guides to go on crew screen. (a good way as a readme in game :lol: )

Time to start putting it all together. :up:

[glenno]

How about the (UN-Believably Improved Real Hollywood Damage Mod. 1.44b Version 1a).

[Marhkimov]

How about the (UN-Believably Improved Real Hollywood Damage Mod. 1.44b Version 1a).

i think glenno is onto something... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:




P.S. the title of this thread should be changed so that 'HOLLYWOOD' doesn't scare people off... :lol:

[glenno]

What about the name Gouldmarhjung Mod

[Schultzy]

I can't wait for the first gold release of this. I love the hollywood damage at the mo, so i can#t imagine how great this is going to be! But can i ask a small question.

Will it work with the German version, or will the thing like 'Captain motivation room' still be written in English?

As i say, only a small thing, but am just wondering, as i play in German...obviously! :lol:

Thanks again for this great work!! :arrgh!:

[Redwine]

Just as a constructive feed back......

Not all users enjoy the fatigue management, personally become tired of it and had eliminated it, i am not a nurse, my crew must to know when to sleep or not, specially in time compresion.

As a sugestion..... is better if you build the "damage" and the "fatigue" modification separatelly and as optionals.

Many thanks for your effort.

Best regards, Red.

[Jungman]

The test I used was a joke at first setting HP from 250 to 2500. But maybe it was not. Dead is dead. A direct hit 10m by a DC still will kill you. I would rather have half my crew dead than instant 'game over' screen.

A direct DC hit that takes all the health points from a compartment still kills off the main Uboat even if you have 95% hull. A DC direct hit will inflict enough damage to blow off a Stern Comparments basic HP in Zones.cfg. This is subtracted from the parent main Hull HP, but if that compartment is destroyed (say 100HP), the Uboat is gone too.

Out of two DC close hits 15m to 20m (not direct hits), many systems down or destroyed, one main officer dead, four crewman wounded, and nine crewman dead.

I sank to the ocean botom lucky it was only 109m deep. Took forever to get the flooding under control and fix everything. Barely made it back to the top alive to limp home.

The game applies damage in a dice roll similiar to the Star Trek StarFleet Battles. it goes to systems or the hull. After that hit my hull was at 95%. But so what, in real life it was not the hull that killed the Uboat crew, it was losing vital systems and flooding then sinking to crush depth that killed you. So who cares about super high HP for the hull, it makes the death scene, especially for crush death, take a few minutes (instead of two seconds) while light go out, pipes break, steam noise, etc. You are still going to die unless you blow ballast and try hard to surface.

On the surface, I got hit by a DD shell, it took 20% hull straight off, a second hit killed two more crewmen and another system, but no hull damage. An Airplane bomb hit close by and stripped it down to 48% hull. So what I am saying, the higher HP hulls realy do not protect you from dying because of the lower armor values in Zones.cfg. It balances out.

Instead of the instant death screen, you get a very crippled ship with many wounded and dead, lucky to make it home to port, or enjoy a rather pleasant death scene sinking to crush depth or sitting on ocean floor waiting for another DD attack or running out of air.

I kind of chucked out the cohesion thing. I went to a more plain logical stress system. Call one the Mess Hall. Your men simply lose energy faster being in stressful stations such as torpedo room or assigned to the damage control team. They simply rest in the quarters, one is faster than the other. I found that having my bow quarters full would cause my watch crew to move into the bow torpedo upon diving too much and it got repeatative.

Cohesion is/was a good system for keeping you from moving the crew around too much, but I find using the changes to intervals, qualification, and hull HP makes this a moot point. I also changes the Officers to have less a fatigue step, they take much longer to tire but long to recuperate. There are two beds and five officers, I could not stand micromanaging all of it. Then the petty officers are in between the officers and regular seaman for fatigue step. This is similiar to the original stock game.

I also see that as the crew gains rank and medals, then you get closer to a boat that can get 100% efficiency in a station. if you start with a green newbies, you will have much less. I think this makes rank and medals more important, and a good reason to spend renown on a skilled crew.

SO what I am saying is I like to finish what you want done for your Hollywood Mod, but I would like to make a version that is different in crew management, more simple and logical intuitive. Placing a man in one department and switching him will not be that bad, which is a fundamental change from your model.

Now there is enough room in the universe for several models. Even Kaa and Berry have their own. Even the German forum is using something similiar.

So I can finish up with hex editing a model for your Hollywood mod as it is with Cohesion idea. I am sorry mate, but I pefer using the new stuff discovered to the fullest extent and it seems to make it simpler at the same time very entertaining.

The whole point was there was no way to stop the fast hull bleed. Now that is solved. Before it was nerfing the hell out of the armor and crew to make them less effecient. Now that is not neccessary.

I theory it seems cool, but in practice it is rather pointless and confusing. I really do not know what to think. I would like to finish a version for your Holywood Mod. I would like to make a more 'simple' version for me called the Die hard Mod. based upon your work, and you will have plenty of credit for its birth of an idea.

Maybe both would be good depending upon how one wants to play the game. What do yoiu think? Chuck out the Cohesion stuff and go for the more simple intuitive model in light of the new discoveries? Or make two versions, one with Cohesion idea, the other with more Traditional gameplay? I do not want to make you upset.

That is what I meant calling this subset simplier version Die Hard Mod. Not that I meant to call the original Hollywood Mod that since I made rather big fundemental changes to the original idea, mainly back to basic gameplay with the new discoveries, no need for fancy crew assignments anymore as far as I am concerned.

In the version you have now, you would not want to go with such a huge increase in hull HP. In this variation I am using it is a must; and all the sub systems and armor levels, and crew may have be adjusted rather drastically. It effectively makes the long death screen a reality, my personal objetive all along.

Do you want to go back to the more traditional crew model in light of the discoveries? or continue and make two versions? One you like, and one for me that is 'simplier'? I can do both at once. :hmm:

Sometimes new things come up, and changes are in order. Just because someone can do something does not mean they should do something. You are correct about the Regular and Specific factors upon placing a man in a station. But I find it now redundant. :-?

[Jungman]

Just as a constructive feed back......

Not all users enjoy the fatigue management, personally become tired of it and had eliminated it, i am not a nurse, my crew must to know when to sleep or not, specially in time compresion.

As a sugestion..... is better if you build the "damage" and the "fatigue" modification separatelly and as optionals.

Many thanks for your effort.

Best regards, Red.

Yes, Redwine I just posted when you typed that. I agree. I just want the original game's simple crew managment (rank and qualifications) with new damage modelled in giving longer Death Screen and more system failures, flooding, longer repair times, and more chance for wounds and crew death.

This is in light of new discoveries. I can tell you, it will breath new life back into the game without losing reality. :P

But I do not want to upset gouldjg. :( Making fundamental changes back to original.

[HEMISENT]

Guys,
First off thanks for all the effort being put into this mod. I've been following the posts from the beginning and am very excited about what's going on here. The stock damage modelling/death scene is a joke to all of us.
In regards to the proposed crew fatigue/cohesion/stress changes personally I find it all pretty confusing as proposed. I think I'd like to stay with something a bit more straightforward. I've been using Beery's RUB since its inception and have gotten it to work pretty well at least for me. I know everyone has their own style of play so I guess I'd vote for two seperate mods as has recently been discussed here. One containing all the damage modelling and the other strictly relating to the crew. That way it gives all of us an option.
BTW I like the "Die Hard" name.

[Jungman]

Guys,
First off thanks for all the effort being put into this mod. I've been following the posts from the beginning and am very excited about what's going on here. The stock damage modelling/death scene is a joke to all of us.
In regards to the proposed crew fatigue/cohesion/stress changes personally I find it all pretty confusing as proposed. I think I'd like to stay with something a bit more straightforward. I've been using Beery's RUB since its inception and have gotten it to work pretty well at least for me. I know everyone has their own style of play so I guess I'd vote for two seperate mods as has recently been discussed here. One containing all the damage modelling and the other strictly relating to the crew. That way it gives all of us an option.
BTW I like the "Die Hard" name.

The Die Hard version is just the damage model only; the crew management is almost basically stock, or RuB or whatever you wish to place in there.

Simple and to the point. Long drawn out death with no baby sitting the crew (well some).

I do make the crew fatigue slower than normal and faster under stress. You only need to change stuff around during an intense battle for survival, or about after a few days at sea under high TC.

[Jungman]

If you need a Zones.cfg

Ive made a new "Hollywood" kind mod by my self, but with the goal of realism, not hollywood ;)
i guess ive modified everything in this config. its still beta but the german community likes it so far and it adds a bit more realism to sh3. all the systems getting more damage by now. the diesels, the periscopes, the pump, everything...

if you want to use it with this mod or better "Breakthrough" feel free, it maybe saves work for you guys?

http://dl5.rapidshare.de/files/6369725/95917634/Zones.rar

Not bad, some neat ideas placed in. I see you made it so one bow torpedo tube will survive better than the rest get destroyed in descending order. Gives a reason to fight on.

But is this a bug? Maybe it has no effect.

[Quarters1]
Multiplier=1.000000
Flotability=40.000000
HitPoints=770
Destructible=No
Armor Level=5
Critic Flotation=0.01
Critical=No
Effect1=#sink_bubbles, 95
Effect2=#dc_bubbles, 30
FloodingTime=190
CargoType=None

[Quarters2]
Multiplier=1.000000
Flotability=40.000000
HitPoints=770
Destructible=No
Armor Level=-5 ------> Do you mean +5, and not -5? Nicht gut. A -1 would use the parent file's armor value in sub.zon
Critic Flotation=0.01
Critical=No
Effect1=#sink_bubbles, 95
Effect2=#dc_bubbles, 30
FloodingTime=190
CargoType=None

[gouldjg]

Jungman

I agree with you totally, release your version and if it satisfies my long wanting desire to have better death, I will die a happy man.

You have discovered the way to improve the damage model and that was my main hopes for this project.

Yes, the crew fatigue models were getting confusing and as stated, we will never get a perfect one. We really do not need to compensate as much now thus the crew penalties was getting to be a dead horse.

I agree that a stock damage die hard like you said.

I know how to tweak the crew to my personal setting and maybe its just a case of showing what to tweak should people want different models.

I also agree about the hull factor.

At the end of the day, this is what most people wanted and that was no quick death but it was a death.

The problem hull integrity is about to be history and we should all have the ability to mix this mod with other major mods i.e. we should aim at not restricting or confusing players.

To restrict it to 1 or have to make loads of version is just going to cause work and we modders never get to enjoy the game.

Go for it

How do others feel?

1. Just the damage release of die hard and we each adapt our own or use the existing fatigue models i.e. we go with what Jungman wants.

2. Spend loads more time trying to flog a no longer needed dead horse.

I will maybe post a summary up about the findings on the fatigue issues up to date so that people may search at a later date.

I say go go go and release, I can then start a campaign feeling quite comfortable about this game.

Most of all it is no longer this type of frustrating testing.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3043/madcomputer4ri6bb.gif

Jungman is there anything you want me to do or are you happy with everything. P.s. It was a pleasure to see this project through and I am so glad you looked into things and steered us to success.

I am happy with the end result and just eagerly await the release.

p.s. I hope nobody thinks I am aborting the crew management project and if anyone wants assistance to get a system that works for them, I will always answer questions based on our findings.

[Marhkimov]

gouldjg,

I still like the idea of the 24 hour crew, but as you and jungman have already stated, lets just concentrate on finishing a good damage model so that we can release it. Anyone who wants to add their own fatige model can still do so.

So question: without the fatigue model, I am under the impression that basic.cfg is no longer needed to be released, corect?

The only necessary files are the individual u-boat .zon files, en_menu.txt, zones.cfg, and menu_1024_768.ini, right?



And I understand it was just a joke (or as jungman said, maybe not), but how about we strike a balance between 250hp and 2500hp?? :roll:

[gouldjg]

gouldjg,

I still like the idea of the 24 hour crew, but as you and jungman have already stated, lets just concentrate on finishing a good damage model so that we can release it. Anyone who wants to add their own fatige model can still do so.

So question: without the fatigue model, I am under the impression that basic.cfg is no longer needed to be released, corect?

The only necessary files are zones.cfg, en_menu.txt, zones.cfg, and menu_1024_768.ini, right?



And I understand it was just a joke (or as jungman said, maybe not), but how about we strike a balance between 250hp and 2500hp?? :roll:

I think Jungman made some changes to his cfg though I am presuming he wants to stick close to stock original. We will have to wait and see.

The menu ini file is optional because as Jungman later discovered, men were being moved into compartments and he had to spend time fidling around.

I will probaly still try and get a 24 hr system up and running for my campaign. I just do not think that many people will go for it as opposed to the longer versions which require less micromanagement but more of a qualification and promotion management.

There are too many preferences to please when it comes to the man management side of the game. From previous mods, it always throws out lots of disagreements and sometimes a lot of bickering over what is at the end of the day, a game.

I like Kaa's model but I went on another track with damage i.e. the only way I thought damage could be increased, was reducing crew ability to cope with it or by flooding. For this Kaa's model would not have enabled us to do this.

It is all irrelevant now because Jungmans discoveries can work on all models. The rest is for the big mods to implement.

All in all a good few discoveries were made on this thread. To me its a job well done by all and a great learning experience which enable me to customise my own game style.

What I set of do do a week ago is almost over and done with. I cannot moan one little bit.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I LOVE the "DIE HARD" title and also think that it would dodge the "Hollywood" perception tendency somewhat.

Oh I can't wait for the next version to be released!!!! :sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

[baxter]

The damage/death story that Jungman posted is great...this is exactly the type of thing that I've wanted SH3 to be capable of. I agree the damage componet should be a separate mod. I've also gotten very comfortable with the RUb fatque mod and wouldn't want to give that up. I really don't think I'd enjoy having to micro-manage the crew, especially at high TC. Thanks for all your efforts...you guys have really come up with what will probably be a classic mod for SH3.

[Marhkimov]

Hey guys, any progress?? :roll:

[HEMISENT]

If this damage mod turns out half as good as it sounds you guys have a fan for life. I used the Hollywood mod from the beginning and knew what a big difference that made for gameplay(including flying crewmen)and this one sounds like Hollywood was childs play.

Keep it up and thanks for all the hard work!

:lurk:

[Jungman]

I took a break for a two days. I got a horrible chest cold in my lungs and head. I hope it is not that dreaded bird flu virus H5N1.

I hope to kick out a decent model soon. Better to have it tested than release a buggy version of the damage model.

[BipBip]

This mod is really promising... :)

[gouldjg]

That bird flu stuff scares the hell out of me. Glad to see your ok though.

Just don't bloody die

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: .

I managed to get a fee hex editor xvi32 as i am curious about this hex stuff and want to see how it all works.

I can open and see your change in the zon but have no clue how i am supposed to edit it properly so am leaving it all to you.

I like it though cos it shows text aswell.

Any tips for me should I wish to tweak myself at a later date :up:

Anyway back to job in hand

To be quite honest I think I will wait for your release. Like others have said and I very much agree, this should blow hollywood out of the water.

I am not upset one little bit, less work for me now (was getting divorced by wife at one point). All i want is a decent game like everyone else here.

I could never really start a campaign because I hated the current damage model. Everything else was fine though for me personally, I want the exploding men of course and when I update my graphics card, I want to play with smoke and fire.

Like everyone here Jungmann, I am eagerly awaiting your work as it fact based and has alway been groundbreaking for this game.

Just Don't Bloody Die Man

p.s. I have sussed the hex stuff out now (all i had to do was click on it and heres me going to edit line etc doh :-j

[Schultzy]

Glad you're feeling a bit better Jungman.

Keep up the good work and thanks from a non modder for all the effort you're all putting into making SH3 even better.

[Sailor Steve]

Minor hitch, but it is spelled 'organization,' not organisation. :lol:

and why is it inconvenient to leave it as 'fatigue?'

...anyhow, it doesn't matter what we call it as long as it does exactly what we want it to... ;)
Sorry to come to this so late, but I have to say it-he didn't mispell anything. Only we Yanks use the 'z' there-to a Brit (and his address does say Manchester, UK) it IS spelled 'organise/organising/organization'.

Just like 'tyres', 'pyjamas' and of course 'honour' and 'harbour'.

Oh, yeah, the topic...looks good so far. Can't wait to see how it all comes out.

[gouldjg]

Minor hitch, but it is spelled 'organization,' not organisation. :lol:

and why is it inconvenient to leave it as 'fatigue?'

...anyhow, it doesn't matter what we call it as long as it does exactly what we want it to... ;)
Sorry to come to this so late, but I have to say it-he didn't mispell anything. Only we Yanks use the 'z' there-to a Brit (and his address does say Manchester, UK) it IS spelled 'organise/organising/organization'.

Just like 'tyres', 'pyjamas' and of course 'honour' and 'harbour'.

Oh, yeah, the topic...looks good so far. Can't wait to see how it all comes out.

In addition, we smoke fags, which means we smoke cigarettes and not the US alternative to using a Magnum 45 in a gay village.

:up:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3043/madcomputer4ri6bb.gif

[Sailor Steve]

Minor hitch, but it is spelled 'organization,' not organisation. :lol:

and why is it inconvenient to leave it as 'fatigue?'

...anyhow, it doesn't matter what we call it as long as it does exactly what we want it to... ;)
Sorry to come to this so late, but I have to say it-he didn't mispell anything. Only we Yanks use the 'z' there-to a Brit (and his address does say Manchester, UK) it IS spelled 'organise/organising/organization'.

Just like 'tyres', 'pyjamas' and of course 'honour' and 'harbour'.

Oh, yeah, the topic...looks good so far. Can't wait to see how it all comes out.

In addition, we smoke fags, which means we smoke cigarettes and not the US alternative to using a Magnum 45 in a gay village.
Well, I wasn't going to mention the part about having a bonnet where your car's hood should be, and a hood up on the roof, and a boot for a trunk, but you made me. Also, if you're ever in the US of A and want to tell a girl you're coming to visit, don't EVEN say "I'll come 'round tomorrow and knock you up".

[HEMISENT]

You should never smoke a fag with a 45 magnum-the gun has to be cleaned and it's a waste of perfectly good lead.
:-j

[gouldjg]

Jungmann
Can I take it that you are producing a .zon special pack to fix a vast number of Damage related topics?

I ask this, as I want to concentrate on a shift model for myself and maybe one or two other players.

I agree that some of the stuff we have discovered is not to everyone’s taste however we all agree that it is best that a Super advanced damage model is best for everyone.

What I need to know is what are you planning to produce?

Are you producing a damage model incorporated into a fatigue mod or are you building a damage mod only?

Do you need me for anything or are you quite ok to do this on your own or with another party?

I feel that it is best for one person to concentrate on a model that everyone benefits from i.e. You deal with much more than I do and will probably do a better job.

I usually get .zon files and configure the Zones.cfg to suit my taste.

p.s. are you planning on playing with the ships .zon files so we could possibly get one or two of those blasted ships filled with barrels that take 5 torps.

Maybe even make the carrier and battleships that much more tougher?

I know your mind is ticking over on what to do and what not to do but were here to listen to your ideas.

Looking forward to your first Die Hard

[HEMISENT]

Gouldjg, just a thought since you guys are getting deeper and deeper into
damage modelling is it possible when taking damage to have the fuel tanks vulnerable to damage/leakage and simultaneously show a greater fuel consumption. I'm just thinking in terms of better imersion and more potential difficulties for a captain to deal with should he survive an attack. Probably just a pipe dream but I thought I'd bring it up.

[Marhkimov]

Leaking fuel tanks are a great idea!... It probably is hard-coded into the game, though I'm not sure... :(

[Jungman]

After two days of the flu from hell, I am 'starting' to feel better. It was bad and slowly recuperating. Man, if this ain't the Bird Flu, I would hate to see that Raven come calling.

Leaking fuel tanks are a great idea!... It probably is hard-coded into the game, though I'm not sure...

To resond to poster: A hit to the fuel tank already causes fuel to leak at a steady rate until you get it fixed quick. I have lost all my fuel and could not go anywhere taking too long. It is already in the game.

I aim to make the damage model completely seperate from the fatigue mod. I may will include my personal favorite custom designed. Basic and more simple, halfway RUB and half Stock with some Hollywood idea of larger lost in torp rooms or managing the guns (you will not beable to manage the guns very well without a qualified gunner and officer. Set in the changes similar to Damage Control in Basic.cfg intervals).

So far, I roughly doubled the Hull health points, and half the Hull armor. Now I must increase the delicate stuff with low HP in the Watch tower such as periscopes.

I also want to add so some torpedo tubes will be stronger than others so at least you may have one torpedo tube left to fire with. It is a secret changes, so no spoiler lest you look at the file, it is not a bug. It is for gameplay sake. Random stuff. Example you can add a line critical chance to fail = 10% on the compressor, it is normally well armored, but this give a chance to be destroyed out right by a hit. There goes you Compressed air supply.

Helps with the higher Hull health Points, a close hit DC will normally kill you instantly, it wil not be that way by chance, but it will fry many critical systems and you are essentially dead anyway....sink to ocean bottom, run out of air, sink to crush depth depending upon hull state, lose your compressed air supply, no electric motors or propellors, etc. Basically a sitting duck for a DD to methodically kill you off, or stuck under water on ocean bottom, or crushed in deep water. Many men dead/systems destroyed to continue your patrol if you survive is a challenge now.

I notice as gouldjg stated the rest quarters has no self repair. You can also stop self repair by hitting Rig for Silent Running too. Which means there is a way to disable it. Somewhere there must be a setting that controls the value of repair rate.

So everyone can put their own fatigue system in. There is a TON of testing, Similiar to changes made by gouljg, I am using his Zones.cfg, then making changes based upon dozens of DC attacks to fine tune the damage. I am increasing the Hull health points, but I discover you maybe need to lower the armor value. This allows the slow crush at depth, but does not make your Uboat a super tank on the surface hit by shells. It balances out to about the same damage.

The whole point is to get the longer death sequence of light flickering, lights out, water pipes bursting. Seaman sreaming Mediiicc!!! wounded and dead. Vital systems lost to continue war instead of always the instant death screen. It will be much more drawn out and more chance you will just limp back to base to fight another day (or continue the fight), and get a fresh crew for those that did not make it/wounded.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

It is good to see you aren't beaten by your flu bug! (Steven King's "The Stand" comes to mind. There is a raven that reappears periodically in the story.)

The mod sounds simply yummy! (as long as it is separate from fatigue mods)

Will this mod also cover the Type IIb and VIIc/41 as presented in RUb?

...Rather, can we make sure that it does cover those subs.

:ping:

[gouldjg]

Hi Jungman


critical chance to fail = 10% on the compressor,

Are we sure that this is correct?

I always presumed critical chance is for when you are storing ammo as a cargo and it is the chance that the ammo will explode.

I noticed this on the ships with ammo or fuel as cargo.

Also look at the multiplier as this seems to add the ability for extra damage to a subsystem.

I am really looking forward to this mod now.

I hope you plan to do a battleship and aircraft carrier version later on as a expansion of your work :hmm: .

The Die Hard trilogy should rock :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

[zombiewolf]

In addition, we smoke fags, which means we smoke cigarettes and not the US alternative to using a Magnum 45 in a gay village.





PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
You should never smoke a fag with a 45 magnum-the gun has to be cleaned and it's a waste of perfectly good lead.
joker

Humm I have found that most GAY BASHERS have a little something in there closets :hmm: :yep:

[gouldjg]

I was just wondering if we have any DC fall rate staistics.

With this mod going the way it is, I think I want a stopwatch so I can get an ideas if the DD has wrong depth or how long till it strikes me.

Should we not start collecting this data? Maybe it would be a good idea if we posted the times on this thread and maybe one of us could place a guide in the game either via the background or by Rubinni's method.

Sub at 50m = DC explodes at ?? seconds.

Is this possible?

Lets help by getting him some stats throughout the week ahead while we wait.

[HEMISENT]

Jungman, great news about the fuel tanks. I've been gettingf dc'd now since the day the game came out and have never experienced this. Just lucky I guess.
Keep up the good work. I'm really looking forward to this.

[martes86]

Is this still a beta? :hmm:

[gouldjg]

Is this still a beta? :hmm:

Hi Martes86

Sorry for not keeping people informed.

In light of Jungmanns discovery with regards to Hull integrity discovery, This project has now steered damage models into a completely different phase for the better.

There is no point for another Hollywood damage mod when a Die Hard mod is coming that will completely wipe out Hollywood damage with regards to thrill, realism and factual content. (Yes I will even slate all my previous work because this is going to be that good)

To put it simple,

Jungmann has made a fantastic discovery and thus deserves to be the one to do the damage tweaks and launch the mod.

I am not anyway near as analytical or experienced as Jungmann in some areas such a sonar, DC, Bombs etc so am quite happy to sit on the fence with this one and offer assistance when needed.

With regards to crew model, I have started work on a real shift system though this is suited for those who like micromanagement and only wish to play at low/no time compression.

Later I will expand the crew system for longer periods. (See real-time crew thread)

Overall we have decided to split the 2 so there is more choice for players who run different fatigue models.

Jungmann is trying not to restrict players and cause difficulties in installations.

My fatigue model work is not for everyone and thus this action has been taken on the best interest of game play.

Hope you understand and hope you enjoy the new mod when he has finished testing everything. :up:

[Jungman]

critical chance to fail = 10% on the compressor,

Are we sure that this is correct?

I always presumed critical chance is for when you are storing ammo as a cargo and it is the chance that the ammo will explode.

I noticed this on the ships with ammo or fuel as cargo.

Also look at the multiplier as this seems to add the ability for extra damage to a subsystem

Right, but I seen critcial chance on other odd stuff. Critical=yes. You can place ammo in there to really light it up as you say.

The regular can DC falls st a steady 5 m/s. So at 50m it wil take 10 seconds.

To make repairs longer, I am playing with idea of making the DC stronger in blast damage. Only your submarine cares about it. That way the self repair will be less and take a very long time to repair.

Example, the self repair is based upon the effeciency of the crew comparment bar being 100% full, eihter by several men or one guy with a high qualification. Plus it depends upn the HP set for that comparment as you know. It takes longer for one man to repair a system that has 1000 HP to only 100 HP. But this causes a problem. It will never really be destroyed. So you must place in a critcal chance to blow to hell with large damage, or increase the size of the DC blast strength.

I do not want to lose realism too much, A DC barrage that was meant to kill you shall still kill you. The difference is instead of instant death screen. It is drawn out, between men dying/ wounded, systems failure, and you may just survive anyway.

The stock damage model is either 1) You survive, no systems lost and no one ever dies or hardly wounded. Or 2) the Extreme opposite: Instant Death in a few seconds.

This is a middle ground. It is hard to describe it. It may not be realistic 100%, but makes for a hell of more fun to play.

There is alot of testing. I spent 12 hours last night, it seems very good except I may need to increase the DC blast. I survived too many DCs that should have killed me. Before I do that, I want to try the critical failures that will help. Two DC blast within 10m I should be 'dead' one way or another.

I watched a new animation the Chief Officer makes, A DC hit right on the hull (usually instant death) inside he flipped over inside the Uboat! :huh: He was going crazy, the lights flick on/off and shaked violently. It would seem there was a true death animation set up, but was removed do to political correctness? They must not want to show graphic seaman dying and screaming...(the screaming voices are there in the sound folder but is disabled).

My last thought is in order to get a realistic repair times and death, half dead, system failures. We need to lower this self repair rate. That is what I am doing. It gives a better damage model without cheating and making the submarine into a super tank.

The shell damage from being on surface is not affected. No need to change it, since I can lower the armor for the Watch Tower, Flak Implacement, Deck Casing to receive more damage to balance out the higher health points. But an under water DC blast will be problematic (as you know -look no watch tower!).

I want to avoid the changing the Shell and DC damages for this reason. Still working on this and trying to find where the repair rate is stored at would be nice.

This is still Alpha state.

[Jotte]

This sounds VERY promising Jungman! :up: :up:

[Jungman]

Thanks, still working on it. It changes alot of stuff. Making the Uboat Hull have a higher HP and lowering the Armor level lets the Uboat have more internal disasters without whiping out the hull in two seconds. IE the damage penetrates to the interior more, so on the surface you will be shot just as easy, but more damage will go to internals instead of the external hull.

Now the hull does suffer becuase the hull armor was lowered to make up for its higher health points. Similar to what gouldjg did for the comparments inside the Uboat already, it is just doing for the hull to get more internal hits instead of a two second death screen from a shell hit (or DC hit) whiping off the hull.

I am looking at reducing the the crew repair time by reduction in qualification in Basic.cfg. I cut it in half and I find it sems to work much better. This number as you know from the Damage Contol changes, affect repair ability. At the same time, it affects the crew ability to run the boats compartment hand in hand also.

I find you can go quite lower without destroying the crew's ability to run things. It makes qualification more important. Instead of taking four non-qualified seaman to run the engine room minimum, it will take six. Or just one qualified and two extra seaman. This will tie up more crew to get the Uboat to run 100% (plus Officer bonus). Only ahighly skilled and ranked crew can run 100% (whatever that means). But it does cut repair rate ALOT.

So if a DC hit the engine room, unles you have 8 men maximum to fit in there and no qulified officer or pety officer, it wil take four times longer to repair than normal. And only a qualification of machinist can make this better.

I do find it seems the higher points with reduced armor lets more damge pints to be done. But its limit is the DC damge size. It maybe be better to increase the DC charge blast to get more HP damage to systems so you can get repair times in hours.

But I do not want to unbalance this yet due to unintended consequences. Yeh I know, alot of stuff going on here and the testing is so slow.

[Marhkimov]

YEah, we don't want to unbalence the game too much. Just let the testers give you their own opinions once you release the mod.



But are you still making the sonar changes? or making changes so that those destroyers are a little less accurate? As I understand it, destroyers should be doing damage by the volume of DC's that are dropped. IMOH, they should drop SH*T loads of inaccurate DC's, rather than a few accurate ones...

[Jungman]

But are you still making the sonar changes? or making changes so that those destroyers are a little less accurate? As I understand it, destroyers should be doing damage by the volume of DC's that are dropped. IMOH, they should drop SH*T loads of inaccurate DC's, rather than a few accurate ones...


Yes another one to get around to. Alot of hex editing. making more so to escape by going deep under sonar via oRGy idea. But using real life numbers and some gameplay changes.

Plus maybe might change the DC model as you say. For a more exciting game. Only late war sonar should go the full 300 meters deep. Type 147A. You can have a stronger Uboat and regular 40m raduis to simulate a 'barrage'.

[baxter]

Sounds great, Jungman. I think this will an entirely new aspect to the game...and a lot more suspense.

[gouldjg]

Sounding great so far Jungmann.

Look at what the majority of people want, release a teaser and then build the ultimate model, which also includes realistic ship battles etc.


Most people would be more than happy with a few more balanced floods, a bit more complicated damage and a little higher hit points to slow things down that little bit but not too much. They will then be happy to wait longer for your masterpiece.

I know what it is like to crawl through .zon files and then zones.cfg and now crew and maybe DC zon files.

All this is obviously needing a lot of testing to try and get a balance so it is maybe a good idea to get a simple version out first and have 50 testers do some work for you.

I would however prefer the flooding and floatability to be more balanced so that a player can decide whether or not to come out of silent running to fix this.

I have hex edited and played with this a little and from my first impressions not all, that much needs changing for many players to start enjoying the vast difference to the stock game or Hollywood mods.

The main problem for me was the direct straight line of five DC that you go right into and the instant death after though in reality this was probably true.

Now I can at least survive for a few minutes longer and sometimes even survive the whole ordeal with escape. Either way it is just thrilling

Bye the way, I want to try your harder 150 arc DD sensor fix, the RUB version is just a tad too easy to slip.

I should not be slipping 3 DD unless God was a crew member or I worked strictly by mathematics and time.

Is there also anyway you can make DD stick around that area some more once they have lost you or better still give them a better search routine.

I just want to get as close to possible the later 8-12hr hour ordeals.

I actually prefer the medal effectivness decrease if it does have dramatic effects on repairs.

All in all good luck

Why are you reading this when you should be working :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Jungman]

I want to try your harder 150 arc DD sensor fix

That is called SonarDC_20. Its blind spot is only 150m so the DD can bite you harder (RuB is 200m blind). And the DC blast is set for 20m instead of the smaller 15m in RUB. Stock is 40m blast radius and no blind spot.

DD crews come in Recruits to Elite for enemy AI. (0 to 4).

I am also making up a (with the idea from oRGy) the depth search is limited in early war sonar to very good late war. So it will give you a reason to go deep to get under the sonar maybe to escape. else why take the chance? It will be good to know what month and year it is, so you know which DD types had what sonar installed at the time. Knowledge will help your decision.

So in the early war sonar, they are blind by 200m, later in war that number will be less to 100m, and finially for the Type 147A sonar: lets say you do not more than one DD over you or else extremely difficult to escape without a good Uboat and luck.

Plus at random the crew of DD is from recruits to veteran and elite. This determines the AI smartness in campaign (random) and mission (set from the scenario start -look for it on the start screen). Elite crews are very hard to escape from. :know:

[oRGy]

Good stuff so far Jungman, I like it.

For the latest version of IuB I've changed the sonar (asdic) as to your historical data. Seems to work well. The DC radius and blind spot are as per RuB though I may change this for the future.

I also eliminated Poor (level 0) crews, replacing them with novice (level 1), and eliminated Elites (with a couple of exceptions) from the SCR layer. (replaced with veteran) As I think level 0 crews are way too useless, and Elite too uber.

[Jungman]

For the latest version of IuB I've changed the sonar (asdic) as to your historical data. Seems to work well. The DC radius and blind spot are as per RuB though I may change this for the future.


Really, well that would save me the time to hex edit it. I am working alot of time getting a new damage and repair model working. It is coming along.

I think that data is pretty close to all the reading off the net I could find, and keeping gameplay in mind. You were not that far off the mark earlier. Is it ready for download? :cool: I might as well test it while doing all this other damge modeling / crush depth death scenes.

As for the DD blind spot, the only thing I would add is to make the early war 200m as it is now, then give the later war and or other sonar a less blind setting to a minimum of 100m, and maybe give the type 147A zero blind spot if not going to use Elite crews.

Maybe even the passive DD sonar can be nerfed some below 200m to 300m maximum also. This all adds up to giving the player a reason to chance going deep to escape several DD above them by going deep getting under the sonars, especially if they are Elite/Veteran. Of course that assumes you have the deep water and not caught in the shallows such as the English Channel.

I use a version with the shorter blind spot 150m for all and larger 20 meter radius. I am so experienced at the game, I need the extra challenge. :D

[Jungman]

gouldjg (or others who wish to try) here is an alpha version to use with the type VIIC only.

http://rapidshare.de/files/6812504/DieHard_alpha_7c.rar.html

I reduced the petty and officer's qualification effect by 25% plus the change to the Damage Control room interval 10/30.

Additionly changes to the sub compartments similiar to any Zones.cfg to its end.

The extra Health Points for the 7c was doubled, the armor level lowered from 25 to 10 to balance it out. No going 'mano y mano' with a DD on the surface. The HP allow for a longer hull while sinking and DC barage, instead you have more system damage and failures.

I did not change floatation in Zones.cfg, I want the sub to start sinking if flooding becomes heavy, the other changes to this critical floatation ( by other mods) makes the sub unrealistically resistant to sinking from flooding.

Having a qualifed and rank crew is very important in order to get decent repairs. So spend renown on a ranked crew. Try it at different years on the U-505 mission.

Repairs and station effeciency go hand in hand. This means low ranked and unqualified crew will need some more to work a room. Engine room example takes 6 seaman, whereas a cheif Sr. Petty officer with machinist qualification can do the work of three seaman. A middle ground cheif petty can do the work of two seaman.

This helps to stretch out the repairs. The only place I can see with intervals giving a decent bonus, is the torp room. Minimum amount to load, then time is cut down by half about 66% then at 100% it is shorten some more.

The radio room I need to adjust some to get 100% with fully ranked and qualifed crew.

Only the Damage Control Team can repair the rest quarters. their is no self repair from crew there.

I am not mesing with crew fatigue for this (which obviously can make it even harder to repair via causing bow torp/engine room and such to have a higher fatigue rate and step ala gouldjg work).

[Jungman]

Has anyone notice that setting the realistic repair time option before start of game seems to make no difference in speed of repairs? :huh:

I think this is bugged, it is always set for fast repair no matter what you choose? :-?

[Marhkimov]

I have the atmospheric mod up my sleeves, but I'll still take your alpha model for a spin! Yeeehaaaw!!! :up:

[Nippelspanner]

So, i tested it so far and was hunted by 3 VW Destroyers, all elite.

the first 2 attackruns wasnt dangerous at all, but the third was a good hit. i was at 100m and 2-3 DC´s exploded maybe 10m above my sub. instantly i had heavy flooding in 3 compartments and severall subsystems like batteries, fuelbunker, rudders, screws, PUMPS (oh shi+!) and the compressor damaged, the periscopes were destroyed, later the whole tower.

i lost 75% of my fuel, until i repaired the bunkers (dunno how the crew made that but...ok :hmm: )
my boat was still strong flooding, 3 minutes left till death, 3 to fix. i was too slow, and too heavy, o i was sinking till 168m (my hull was at ca. 60).

this was the first time since SH2 that i really was afraid to die because of flooding! you may remember, i tried to fix that damage stuff by myself in the zones.cfg, but not with this results.

i guess this mod will be one of the most important ever created for sh3...

[gouldjg]

Jungman

Can you tell me what you have tested on i.e. vanilla or RUB?

[gouldjg]

Hi Jungman

I like the changes but it is this fatigue issue that is causing me more concern. I just feel as though I have to now recalculate all my fatigue settings to accompany the coef settings and new qual changes. Are we confident other Fatigue makers will be so forthcoming and are we sure other players will be happy to wait for all tweaks to be made?

Have you not thought about just taking the armour right down to 5 on a 700hp for sub.

Then set all compartment armour to 5 also

Then raise all hp on equipment,

Then set men defence at a higher level (not their hp but the protection factor above)

[DAMAGE]
OpenComp=1
PartiallyOpenComp=0.5
EnclosedComp=0.1 (Change this to a more resilient figure)

I would consider using the crush depth randomiser and I would also have sinking but not as fast as rub and not as slow as Vanilla.

I find it best to set average compartment at between 25 to 35 flotation.


I have thought long and hard on this whole issue and think it is really best to seperate the 2 even though we may lose some minutes of extra repair.

You can always release a basic.cfg that will intensify the damage model at a later date.

I think that we should leave fatigue models alone whilst the damage is being tweaked.

Seperate it totally :up:

:know: Remember you warned me about too much thinking on the fatigue issue when it come to damage and I now think your right.


What you have provided is a way to prolong the innevitable (great news and fantastic work)

What we should be doing is creating a damage mod that will compliment any future or past sensor tweak i.e. your DD and DC tweaks.

This should be able to go well on all games RUB, IUB, Vanilla, and for those who choose bits of each.

If you think it will work then bye all means go for the combination. I am just afraid that it will kill itself off as it will cause people agro with fatigue model issues etc.

I suggest you carry on with your work till you get a full version ready for beta testers. Then I can test the full finnished product.

I like it, dont get me wrong. I have just spent days working out future crew models and to be honest I am just a bit put off on the basic cfg changes. (maybe that is because we see different angles on this).


Everyone can still change their fatigue to what they want or choose your fatigue which increases repair times.


This is just my first immpressions and I have only tried betat wice. So before I make any final judgements I am going to test some more over the weekend and report back on moday.

If my theory is wrong then I will be using your Die Hard when it is finnished. :up:

If on the other hand I get good results that gives me a good time then I will probably release My Hollywood version for you to check out.

I hope no offence is taken as I just see the whole damage issue in a different light than most people.

Realistic and Gamey (it maybe is not posible to get both)

P.s. Have you and Orgy decided on what is happening on the varying depths issues with regards to DC.

I think if you can simulate different deph ranges as per year then you are cooking something hot.

Chat soon

[Jungman]

Stock game. I made NO changes to fatigue.

I only lowered the qualification number for the Petty Officers, and main Officers by 25%. that is it. No fatigue change from stock. I want people to do their own chages if they want to.

As for Zones.cfg. You can try whatever you want. I just put a basic miminal changes in there to work.

Damage to hull, you can go even further up on Health Points and lower the armor even more; but be careful, it could cause your Uboat to be a tank.

Have you tried to play the alpha at different years using the U505 mission in a VIIC?

So far for an alpha, people seem to like it. It makes death a long drawn out scary feeling without turning your Uboat into a tank.

It is set up so peeps can use their own version of Zones.cfg and Fatigue if they wish. I only made a small change to qualifications effect and the small change to the Damage Control. Biggest change is to the sub.zon file.

Did you know the checking off the realistic repairs option at the start of a game may not even be working it seems? It is always stuck at fast repair option. In the stock game it may be a bug.

[gouldjg]

I am going to check some more.

I have just been looking at the actual changes and you are in fact right about the fatigue models having an easy change.

We need more people play testing this.

What may be putting me off is the fact the DC are some distance and yet still getting damaged :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I am so used to the DC being close before real damage done.

Leave it with me I will report in full on Sunday night or Monday.

As long as I get the ability to run silent whilst damaged. You know, take a chance on wehter or not to come out of silent for repairs.

Can I suggest you open a new thread so more people take note of your work.

[Marhkimov]

Yes, I agree... Nobody reads super large threads... :roll:

[Jungman]

The DC blast radius I am using is 20m. Stock game it is set for 40m. In the RuB setup it is only 15m. IuB I think is set for 20m as mine.

Makes a huge difference. Are you using RuB DC blast radius of only 15m? or stock at 40m?

You will get either points taken away at random from the hull, compartments, or internal systems.

I did not call it 'Die Hard' for nothing! ;)

But you can balance out internal damage to hull damage ratio from a close DC blast by changing the armor level values. It is an alpha to show what it does. Alot of randomness. Sometimes all damage goes into the hull, sometimes you lose you vital systems and die.

I still want realism, you are going to feel the pain of a DC blast from only 15m away should kill you right off in stock game -but this allows you a chance to survive awhile before you die...maybe you get lucky and live.

Nippelspanner thanks for the feedback, he had an 'enjoyable' ride to the ocean floor. :|\ Did you read his story?

[Marhkimov]

During my test, I have concluded that for the most part, everything works well.

Of course, I died... but that isn't Jungman's fault. I may be a great torpedo marksman, but I am sure as Hell the worst DC avoider in the history of all u-boat kaleuns, and I'm not kidding. :nope:

Only time will tell how good this mod can be. Jungman is the whiz at setting up the u-boat zon files, but gouldjg could probably come around and whip up a compatible damage and fatigue model. There's still lots of work to be done up ahead, but we are getting close... I can feel it... Or maybe my ears are still ringing from those DC's...

Hedgehogs are damn effective, but realistically so. One HH brought me down to 77%, and a second one brought me down to 51%. So, that means on average 25% per HH... Sounds about right. :up:

Oh, and I am using the 15km DC's... I told you I suck!!! :lol:

I died from pressure... crushed at around 90m when a DC brought me from 51% to 19%. I took on water, and the death screen was initiated moments later. All in all, it was a wild ride. :rock:



The big question is: Do I really suck THAT much, or are the depth charges still too effective or accurate?

[Jungman]

What year are you playing? If it is 1944-45 and I assume you are using the SonarDC (which is in RuB) the DD are veteran/elite crew and will kill you very well.

I can escape, but I know their tatics well. The next verson of SonarDC will have the stuff from oRGy and I worked on limiting sonar depths, and I am changing the blind spot some more.

You could escape by going deep with these changes, but a late war Elite crew DD will pretty much kill you. Think about this.

The DC blast is set for 15m. Historically a DC will kill a Uboat instantly punch through hull within a 10m blast. So if you are taking damage, you are getting hit within 15m or less, and should be dead.

At 20m distance, Uboat would suffer serious/moderate internal damage from the hydro shock wave causing stuff like glass, batteries, water seals to break.

Enable you event and external camera and see what is happening.

It really is not the DD being so accurate, late war DD are deadly no matter what. That is why the Uboat all died off by 1944 into 1945.

The other Zones.cfg makes the Uboat too much of a super tank and able to stand up too much damage and that is not realistic for me. By changing the sub.zon file, the Zones.cfg can have a much more consevative change = more realistic damage from a DC hit.

With this model, instead of the DC killing you off instantly within a 15m DC blast, you get a nice kick in the pants, and system damage; usually with a nice trip to the ocean bottom (or if lucky live). I have escaped plenty of times even though had no engines left to get home. :rotfl:

[Marhkimov]

June 4th, 1944... using the Type VIIC, I played my edited version of U-505.

One of those damn veteran Evarts DC'd the hell out of me... And he HH'd me twice, also hitting me twice.

SH*T was knocked out of me... oOooyy :doh:

[VON_CAPO]

http://rapidshare.de/files/6812504/DieHard_alpha_7c.rar.html

The extra Health Points for the 7c was doubled, the armor level lowered from 25 to 10 to balance it out. No going 'mano y mano' with a DD on the surface.
Now I know it. I was fighting an armed trawler on surface and the result was incredible!!!
Hull intregrity 57 %, 2 wounded and 2 dead. :o

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/6485/sh3img27102005195505780cd.th.jpg (http://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img27102005195505780cd.jpg) http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/4738/sh3img271020051924112184az.th.jpg (http://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020051924112184az.jpg)

[Jungman]

:rock: Cool picture! it seems like the feeling is people are excited, you actually can get some serious internal damage wounded crew now. :sunny:

One of those damn veteran Evarts DC'd the hell out of me... And he HH'd me twice, also hitting me twice.

SH*T was knocked out of me... oOooyy

Puts a new spin on them DD dropping a Hedge Hog or a DC on you! Gives me the whiles nervously waiting to see if I am going to get flipped over and spanked! :rotfl:

So, i tested it so far and was hunted by 3 VW Destroyers, all elite.

the first 2 attackruns wasnt dangerous at all, but the third was a good hit. i was at 100m and 2-3 DC´s exploded maybe 10m above my sub. instantly i had heavy flooding in 3 compartments and severall subsystems like batteries, fuelbunker, rudders, screws, PUMPS (oh shi+!) and the compressor damaged, the periscopes were destroyed, later the whole tower.

i lost 75% of my fuel, until i repaired the bunkers (dunno how the crew made that but...ok )
my boat was still strong flooding, 3 minutes left till death, 3 to fix. i was too slow, and too heavy, o i was sinking till 168m (my hull was at ca. 60).

this was the first time since SH2 that i really was afraid to die because of flooding! you may remember, i tried to fix that damage stuff by myself in the zones.cfg, but not with this results.

i guess this mod will be one of the most important ever created for sh3...

[Redwine]

Preliminary test of VIIC Alpha.....

Mission used : Default U-505. Because americans with their Helgedogs was very dangerous.



I noted some extrage things, they are not so precise with their helgedogs, i am not sure, but is my impresion they was more accurate with helgedogs before, may be ?

They pass very...very...near to me but with not exact accuracy.

It is so good for me, they was terrible accurate, and give no chances before, or it is only a wrong impresion and i was so lucky this time ?

Any way they was so accurate with barrell depth charges. They can determine so good my course and pass along my hull with a rain of depth charges.

Launching decoys at exact moment and using full rudder i can evade longitudinal depth charges, but side depth charges still dangerous.

Finally they hit my conning tower, control room, radio room and forward rest room was severe damaged and with high rate flooding, both periscopes lossed, forward deck damaged, both sectors of conning tower completelly destroyed.

I am using 15m radius on depth charges, the most common and extensively depth charge used in the war, was the 250Lbs one, and it has 4.5m/4.7m lethal radius filled with TNT and about 6m/7m lethal radius filled with Minol/Amatol (declared values), extend their damage rdius to 15m is more than real, plus we must to consider, the lateral surface is not the pressure hull, it is the external side of ballast tanks, hull is 1.5m inside, and about 1m under the deck surface.

The depth charge explodes just on top of my conning tower, about 4 or 5 meters over the deck, wich is 1m or more over the pressure hull, any way, the hull was severe damaged (20% damage) and high flooding rate on 3 rooms between 6 and 10 meters far from the explosion focus.

High rate flooding in control and radio room was controled after a considerable time, but rest room flooding was uncontrolable, i was enforced to increased the skill level of the repair team and put it all working on the rest room to only be able to maintain the flood level.

I decided to take shallower depth, i am not sure if external pressure is moddelled afecting flooding, i was at 150m and gone to 70m, after lot of time flooding was stable and finally stops to rise up.
Finally flooding was controled and i was able to enter in silent running and go depth and after a lot of time i can evade those dangerous americans.

Very exciting. I was too near to be killed.

I noted some things :

1] Helgedogs are not so accurate as before ? May be ? So good.

2] Flooding are a little bit more hard and uncontrolable ? May be ?


As constructive comment, i am not agree with the fact of crew into the rest rooms can not do anything to repair the rooms where they are, and only the repair team can do repairing actions into the rest rooms.

I think so every crew was trained to take hands inmediately on repairs in emergency situations, they can not remains inactive, and then if it is posible they must to be helped by the repair team.

[Redwine]

Second test on VIIC Alpha, Mission U-505 default.

This two depth charges kills me instantly, no time to go to damage screen.

The first explodes about 5 meters near the hull, and the second one at about 10 or 12m.

Kill was instantaneous. Remember i am using 15m blast radius.


http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/5352/hit1viicalpha7qj.th.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hit1viicalpha7qj.jpg)


http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7386/hit2viicalpha3av.th.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hit2viicalpha3av.jpg)

[Nippelspanner]

Redwine, could you pls upload your DC files? im searching for better DCs... :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Redwine, could you pls upload your DC files? im searching for better DCs... :up:

I am looking for same Redwine. Please do. :arrgh!:

[Redwine]

No problem, i am going to do it now....

Here they are..............

http://rapidshare.de/files/6872941/Personalized_Depth_Charges.zip.html

I note another extrnge thing...... those "pitbulls" american DD's can detect my course changes even if they are near to just over me. :-? :hmm:

If i put flank speed to be clear detected, and maintain a stable course, those DD's attack me just from back, aligned with my own course...... then when i can see them from my periscope, i make a full rudder maneuver, and they follow my turn, but they are so near, just over my stern, and anyway they are able to detect my turn ! :shifty:

It is soupose it must not to occurs, due to Jungmans AI sensors was adjusted to stablish a minimun detection range of 200m......

Any body note the same ?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

No problem, i am going to do it now....

I note another extrnge thing...... those "pitbulls" american DD's can detect my course changes even if they are near to just over me. :-? :hmm:

If i put flank speed to be clear detected, and maintain a stable course, those DD's attack me just from back, aligned with my own course...... then when i can see them from my periscope, i make a full rudder maneuver, and they follow my turn, but they are so near, just over my stern, and anyway they are able to detect my turn ! :shifty:

It is soupose it must not to occurs, due to Jungmans AI sensors was adjusted to stablish a minimun detection range of 200m......

Any body note the same ?

It sounds like one of those "perfect-elite-never miss a shot" elite DD's that need to have the skill level reduced to veteran.

[Redwine]

It sounds like one of those "perfect-elite-never miss a shot" elite DD's that need to have the skill level reduced to veteran.

But even with Elite crew........ can they detect my turns inside the minimun range ?

Even outside the minimun range, the sonar operator must to take some time to stablish my course is changing....or not ?

Here my personalized depth charges in use.........

http://rapidshare.de/files/6872941/Personalized_Depth_Charges.zip.html

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Thank you for the DC files Redwine! :up:

[Nippelspanner]

yep, thx! ;)

[Jungman]

I did not make any changes to the Hedge Hogs or the AI_Sensors.dat.

The mission U-505 is meant to kill you, and it did. A blast from that close is suppose to kill you. Have you tried it a few times? It should give a random 33% dead, 33% cirtical damage, 33% escape.

You are going against the best the military offers.

The first explodes about 5 meters near the hull, and the second one at about 10 or 12m.

Kill was instantaneous. Remember i am using 15m blast radius.



If a DC hit near you within the 15m t0 10m it may kill you out right.

Have your tried other or more than once? It is random.

The RUB model with its exagerated health point to the comparments makes your sub a super submarine.

All I did is use the standard stock values as much as possible.

It is that your Uboat cannot stand up to multiple DC hits? That would kill you in real life. The other mods to Zones.cfg that is in RUB makes the submarine a super tank.

We must find a realistic value. If a DC goes off that close 10m you are dead.

Please try it a few times. It is an alpha and needs feedback .

Thanks for helping me out.

[VON_CAPO]

Thanks, still working on it. It changes alot of stuff. Making the Uboat Hull have a higher HP and lowering the Armor level lets the Uboat have more internal disasters without whiping out the hull in two seconds. IE the damage penetrates to the interior more, so on the surface you will be shot just as easy, but more damage will go to internals instead of the external hull.

Now the hull does suffer becuase the hull armor was lowered to make up for its higher health points. Similar to what gouldjg did for the comparments inside the Uboat already, it is just doing for the hull to get more internal hits instead of a two second death screen from a shell hit (or DC hit) whiping off the hull.

I am looking at reducing the the crew repair time by reduction in qualification in Basic.cfg. I cut it in half and I find it sems to work much better. This number as you know from the Damage Contol changes, affect repair ability. At the same time, it affects the crew ability to run the boats compartment hand in hand also.

I find you can go quite lower without destroying the crew's ability to run things. It makes qualification more important. Instead of taking four non-qualified seaman to run the engine room minimum, it will take six. Or just one qualified and two extra seaman. This will tie up more crew to get the Uboat to run 100% (plus Officer bonus). Only ahighly skilled and ranked crew can run 100% (whatever that means). But it does cut repair rate ALOT.


So if a DC hit the engine room, unles you have 8 men maximum to fit in there and no qulified officer or pety officer, it wil take four times longer to repair than normal. And only a qualification of machinist can make this better.

I do find it seems the higher points with reduced armor lets more damge pints to be done. But its limit is the DC damge size. It maybe be better to increase the DC charge blast to get more HP damage to systems so you can get repair times in hours.

But I do not want to unbalance this yet due to unintended consequences. Yeh I know, alot of stuff going on here and the testing is so slow.
Well, I tried again http://rapidshare.de/files/6812504/DieHard_alpha_7c.rar.html .
It is hard to me explain it in English, so, judge yourself the images.

First damage. Take a look at the time.

http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/1900/sh3img271020052222422813ie.th.jpg (http://img428.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052222422813ie.jpg) http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/7316/sh3img271020052223212034dh.th.jpg (http://img428.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052223212034dh.jpg) http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/1190/sh3img27102005222728939nn.th.jpg (http://img428.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img27102005222728939nn.jpg)

http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/4624/sh3img271020052233554062tp.th.jpg (http://img483.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052233554062tp.jpg) http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/5439/sh3img271020052234455780xg.th.jpg (http://img483.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052234455780xg.jpg) http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/1273/sh3img271020052236201718tk.th.jpg (http://img483.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052236201718tk.jpg)

More damage. The U-boot got too heavy because of the flooding.
Check the deep and air compressed gauges.

http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/1544/sh3img271020052237409062hm.th.jpg (http://img424.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052237409062hm.jpg) http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/2097/sh3img271020052238269063pd.th.jpg (http://img424.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052238269063pd.jpg) http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/7641/sh3img271020052238535461qh.th.jpg (http://img424.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052238535461qh.jpg)

The sub hit the bottom at 256 meters :o :o :o
Now is when the hull integrity starts to going down because of the pressure.
Take a look at the time.

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5438/sh3img271020052239223128ls.th.jpg (http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052239223128ls.jpg) http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/4998/sh3img271020052241136566tb.th.jpg (http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052241136566tb.jpg) http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/3295/sh3img2710200522422108pe.th.jpg (http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img2710200522422108pe.jpg)

Five seconds after the last picture the integrity fell to 48% and the sub was lost. :cry:

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/9586/sh3img27102005224326718sj.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img27102005224326718sj.jpg) http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/8647/sh3img271020052243201409tr.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img271020052243201409tr.jpg)

[Jungman]

The first explodes about 5 meters near the hull, and the second one at about 10 or 12m.

Kill was instantaneous. Remember i am using 15m blast radius.


Yeas you are dead. Just as in real life. I set it up so you have a 33% to die, 33% survive but heavy random damage, 33% no damage at all and escape.

Please try it a few more times (it is random)? :D

[Jungman]

VON_CAPO
You got it exactly! :sunny:

I am looking at reducing the the crew repair time by reduction in qualification in Basic.cfg.

Pleae note that I did the same already! The game will not understand qualification below the number "1". So if you place "0.5" it understands this as a "1".

Now the hull does suffer becuase the hull armor was lowered to make up for its higher health points. Similar to what gouldjg did for the comparments inside the Uboat already, it is just doing for the hull to get more internal hits instead of a two second death screen from a shell hit (or DC hit) whiping off the hull.

You do understand the basic idea! :D

Lower qualification (cannot go below "1".) and the hull changes in sub.zon.

it will take a balance to get a decent damage. i think it is fair??


It maybe be better to increase the DC charge blast to get more HP damage to systems so you can get repair times in hours.

I think the same, but I did not want to change the basic game too much unless it is absouletly neccessary.

But its limit is the DC damge size.

I have done that and it will go into hours for repairs. ;)

With a DC going off 5m off your hull would mean instant death in real life. This is still 'dead' but with a long drawn out death by crushing and flooding. I see you enjoy it? :rotfl: Die Hard

[VON_CAPO]

With a DC going off 5m off your hull would mean instant death in real life. This is still 'dead' but with a long drawn out death by crushing and flooding. I see you enjoy it? :rotfl: Die Hard

A lot!!! :yep: :yep: :yep:

[gouldjg]

Well Jungmann

I have tested this with a critics view at first but man I have got to give it to you on a superb Job done. :up:

I played with the 20dc and 150 (one of your older tweaks but to me it is one of the best) :up:

Some points I noted

Very random yet player will get hurt and sometimes killed by close DC run and it is very well balanced in the prolonging death. :up:

Basic CFG has NOT changed in any bad form what-so-ever which was my first fear. I actually feel a bit more at ease with the slightly reduced QE because lets face it, no 1 man could become a superman due to QE.

Surface attacks feel much more realistic.

All in all it looks great and maybe its time to put all your damage, sensor and DC pack together.

I will be downloading it, thats for sure.


Go for it

It will be a success thats for sure :up:

I am just a little curious as to why we need any armour at all. I have found that the HH have more damaged systems when all armour has been removed i.e. the sub, the compartments, and much of the equipment.

Also found that surface shots travelled further into sub, which led to some good moments.

The men survived untill a direct DC and the damage of a close DC was wider spread.

Sub Hull = 0
Compartments = 0
90% of equipment = 0

Give it a quick whirl

[Redwine]

I did not make any changes to the Hedge Hogs or the AI_Sensors.dat.

The mission U-505 is meant to kill you, and it did. A blast from that close is suppose to kill you. Have you tried it a few times? It should give a random 33% dead, 33% cirtical damage, 33% escape.

You are going against the best the military offers.


You make me happy !! :D I never was killed in that mission :o

..... but i never catch the carrier neither :rotfl: :88)



The first explodes about 5 meters near the hull, and the second one at about 10 or 12m.

Kill was instantaneous. Remember i am using 15m blast radius.



If a DC hit near you within the 15m t0 10m it may kill you out right.

Have your tried other or more than once? It is random.


I am not sure, when i made the Lethal radius Mod for SH2, i found the depth charges had not a big lethal radius.

From its readme :

>>>>>>>>>>
ABOUT LETHAL RADIUS :


Looking into the files, and reading about historical values, I found the Lethal Radius for all Depth Charges in the game are so exaggerated.........

Looking into the historical technical data, we can found in some places the Lethal radius for a 420 lbs./136 kg. TNT depth charge was between 5 and 6 meters.

In another places do the mention of the early 420 lbs./ 136 kg. TNT depth charges has a lethal radius of about 4.1m.

In more detailed level places we can found the Lethal Radius of a Mark III, a 420 lbs. (136 kg. TNT) depth charge has a lethal radius of about 4.3m.

A derivate of this was the Mark VII 420 lbs/130 kg, TNT wich had a lethal radius of about 6.1m, (according as declared).

An d the Mark VII Heavy 420 lbs/132 kg TNT with moe sink rate, with a lethal radius of about 6.1m, (according as declared).

This depth charge was filled with Minol high explosive, increasing its lethal radius up to 7.9m, (according as declared).

As we can see........ lethal radius for a 420 lbs/ 130kg-136kg TNT vary between 4.1m and 6.1m.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The biggest was the american 600Lbs. one, and its lethal radius was between 10 and 12m.

The main problem is SH3 do not modelated all depth charges models, as in example the 320Lbs, or the 286Lbs, or the 250Lb and more.
The most extensively depth charge used was the 420Lbs and its represent the biggest percent of depth charges used, and had a lethal radius between 4.1 and 6.1m.

I soupose this is the depth charge we need to modelled, just an opinion.

This declared power was for perforation capacity of a hull of 18mm or 21mm i don remember so good, but there was hull with more tickness.

Even with the big 600lbs an explosion at 15m of the pressure hull you must not be killed suddently.

Take in account in the screens, when a depth charges explodes at side of the sub, there was about 1.5m of ballast tank prior to reach the pressure hull, this means to be at 4.1m of the pressure hull, it must to explode at 2.4m of the side of the sub.

Any way i am using a blast damage radius of 15m, very bigger then those values.




The RUB model with its exagerated health point to the comparments makes your sub a super submarine.

All I did is use the standard stock values as much as possible.

It is that your Uboat cannot stand up to multiple DC hits? That would kill you in real life. The other mods to Zones.cfg that is in RUB makes the submarine a super tank.


Ok, i am not interested in a supertank, i do not mentioned the two hits thinking in multiple hits resitence, i done that due to the range of the explosions, the first one was into a posible lethal radius, 5m..... as you can see it kills me.



We must find a realistic value. If a DC goes off that close 10m you are dead.


May be with an american 600Lbs MK7, but not with an 420Lbs MK6 or 290Lbs Lbs MKVII or a 170Lbs MKVIII.
Anyway as mentioned i am using a blast damage radius of 15m, more than enought considering those historical values.....

Finally........... many thanks for the effort :up: , and .......back to the job ... :rotfl:

I will try more to give more feed back.

:up: :up:

[Marhkimov]

So how is the alpha testing and modding coming along.

I hope it's still coming along... :yep:

[VON_CAPO]

Von
You are suppossed to use the 7c sub for the tests :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Easy mistake to make
I can assure you things will be different.
Jungman has only done the alpha for the one sub at the moment.
All other subs are set to standard.
Gouldjg, you are right. My mistake. :oops: :oops: :oops: :-?

[gouldjg]

Von

You are suppossed to use the 7c sub for the tests :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Easy mistake to make

I can assure you things will be different.

Jungman has only done the alpha for the one sub at the moment.

All other subs are set to standard.

[ICBM]

^^ Noticed it when being under fire from a BB in my IXC hehe.

Please hurry before the damn Allies get Hedgehogs!

[HEMISENT]

Just installed the VIIC files.
Can't wait to run a few test missions.

Thanks

[VON_CAPO]

Testing http://rapidshare.de/files/6812504/DieHard_alpha_7c.rar.html .
First damage, Integrity 99%

http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/6456/sh3img301020051510398282re.th.jpg (http://img445.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051510398282re.jpg) http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/7444/sh3img301020051510536253mu.th.jpg (http://img445.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051510536253mu.jpg) http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/8897/sh3img30102005151129066wk.th.jpg (http://img445.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img30102005151129066wk.jpg)

More damage, but from far away, integrity 81% :-? :hmm:

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8296/sh3img301020051515182810nw.th.jpg (http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051515182810nw.jpg) http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/5167/sh3img301020051515247812md.th.jpg (http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051515247812md.jpg) http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4199/sh3img30102005151605620pp.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img30102005151605620pp.jpg)http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/8639/sh3img301020051516122182of.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051516122182of.jpg)

More damage, but same integrity 81%

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8239/sh3img301020051520425788zc.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051520425788zc.jpg) http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/660/sh3img301020051522535460ud.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051522535460ud.jpg) http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8425/sh3img301020051523484216bv.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051523484216bv.jpg) http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9849/sh3img301020051523594681ow.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051523594681ow.jpg)

Now the boat gets close damage, integrity fall from 81 to 72%
The heavy flood begins

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/8715/sh3img301020051525102503ol.th.jpg (http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051525102503ol.jpg) http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/4408/sh3img301020051525213909cf.th.jpg (http://img415.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051525213909cf.jpg) http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/3156/sh3img301020051525265627nr.th.jpg (http://img415.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051525265627nr.jpg)

The sub is leaking fuel and check the damages: diesel engines= destroyed; batteries= destroyed= "NO PROPULSION"
I am doomed. :roll:

http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/3498/sh3img30102005152603757ft.th.jpg (http://img422.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img30102005152603757ft.jpg) http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/5491/sh3img301020051526275155kl.th.jpg (http://img422.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051526275155kl.jpg) http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/4569/sh3img301020051527183593id.th.jpg (http://img422.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051527183593id.jpg)

The boat is sinking very fast

http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/2807/sh3img301020051527416096pv.th.jpg (http://img272.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051527416096pv.jpg) http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/3634/sh3img301020051528167963xu.th.jpg (http://img272.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051528167963xu.jpg) http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/1033/sh3img301020051528315466fw.th.jpg (http://img272.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051528315466fw.jpg)

It hits the bottom at 220 meters and the integrity is falling until the end :dead:

http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/6058/sh3img30102005152945460kn.th.jpg (http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img30102005152945460kn.jpg) http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/625/sh3img301020051529167969kc.th.jpg (http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051529167969kc.jpg) http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2163/sh3img301020051529561097bn.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051529561097bn.jpg)

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/4043/sh3img301020051530182348fz.th.jpg (http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051530182348fz.jpg) http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/4757/sh3img301020051530198121fb.th.jpg (http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051530198121fb.jpg) http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/2743/sh3img301020051530215158wq.th.jpg (http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img301020051530215158wq.jpg)

COROLLARY
:hmm: :hmm: The conning tower is extraordinarily weak.
:hmm: :hmm: I think you should raise a little bit the armour because many vital system (such as diesel and BATTERIES) are destroyed very easy. So, it is unlikely to survive.
When I used the Hollywood mod v2.3, survive always was a chance.
I would like you tweak this new mod at a intermediate point, between the old v2.3 and this new one.
:yep: :yep: :yep:

[Hartmann]

Perhaps the conning tower is outside of the pressure hull and could be more vulnerable.

I dont tested it yet but seems to be very realistic :up: :up:

In the stock game with rub ...i was depht charged by a destroyer and i lost a men with 97 % of hull integrity and no critical damage or unrecoverable systems. :nope:

In sh1 i remember that the water in a compartment with severe floodings could damage electric engines , diesel engines, or make clorine gas in the bateries. is this modeled in sh3 ??.

[VON_CAPO]

Perhaps the conning tower is outside of the pressure hull and could be more vulnerable.

I dont tested it yet but seems to be very realistic :up: :up:

In the stock game with rub ...i was depht charged by a destroyer and i lost a men with :dead: 97 % of hull integrity and no critical damage or unrecoverable systems.
Yes, the conning tower is outside of the pressure hull, ... but it is so strong as the hull and tolerates the same pressure because inside is the station where the commander attacks.
If I remember well, the principal steel skin of a U-Boat is thick, and do not forget that they have double hull. The capacity to absorb damage increases because of an external thin skin is wrapping fuel and other devices.
My complain is specific to long range detonations that damage a lot.
Almost always the batteries are destroyed :nope:
But I think Jungman is going to get something well balanced :up: :up: :up:
:yep: :yep: :yep:

[gouldjg]

All I know is that some DC attacks blasted electric fuse boxes and pipes of walls and sent them flying round sub and that any person whose body was in contact with sub wall near DC had the chance of having his back broke.

I think Jungmann was just testing the new Hull and repair changes to see if it could be done.

I am presuming he will set the zones to at least give the player some form of a chance for recovery.


I am hoping he is addressing the other stuff this week. It is getting a bit drawn out when people are waiting for a gameplay worthy model that just does not kill em in seconds. I think it is time to bring a release version out to the community as people have been eagerly waiting for this. Do the perfect one next.

(maybe I am just impatient but this has been almost 2 weeks waiting now and we are only supposed to be prolonging the death by a little bit)

I am presuming he will set the zones to at least give the player some form of a chance for recovery.

At any rate, I have tweaked some of the finds to my liking and this is not completely in line with Jungmanns way of thinking as I like to have the sinking slower but certain as well as a small chance of recovery after a severe hit. I also prefere equipment to be able to be repaired unles I am dumb enough to get another close shot within minutes.

And finally the armour in this game just confuses me as I have removed all armour from everything and still get a good playable sub that can take a hit.

We should not try to manage armour levels (they are a decoy for the modders as it means squat)

IMHO

Hull = more HP + 0 armour on sub hull integrity

Compartments = 400hp-550 + 25-35% floatability each and with a critical flotation of 0.01 onwards. Also 0 armour

equipment should be on average 130-190 hp some low and some high in the case of torpedos. Some things such as engines should be balanced i.e. one engine with high hp and one with low. And yes 0 armour on all this as well.

Mens protection in CFG should be slightly upped by a digit or two max.



I have to respect the fact that Jungmann discovered how to change the hull integrity so his mod deserves first shot.

If people do not like it, I am making a Hollywood Mod with my tweaks.

So either way people will have a choice of two

P.S. Jungmann could you infom us of when you are planning a release full version.

[Marhkimov]

P.S. Jungmann could you infom us of when you are planning a release full version.

P.S. Jungmann could you infom us of when you are planning a release full version.

:D

[rulle34]

This thread is really interesting :) Great work on this mod :up:
Is it possible to mod the depth vs. damage? What I mean is that it was more difficult to damage a submarine at greater depth than in shallow water due to waterpressure.

[Jungman]

Long weekend. Just got back. :-j Halloween.

Damage from long distance DC charges. I am using a DC blast of 20m. I should have included it with that alpha. :cool: The stock game is set for 40m and that would really hurt your sub. RuB is set for 15m blast.

I am not trying to make a super tank sub. A couple of close DC should kill you slowly 'Die Hard'. You can however, place you own favorite Zones.cfg in the Mod.

I also tend to agree the watch tower gets destoyed a bit too much and for gameplay I will adjust it up.

Plus the batteries/engines tend to get nailed too much. I also agree the same idea as gouldjg, make one engine stonger than the other just for gameplay sake. Plus one torpedo tube to survive more. I also make the observation scope more stronger.

Some items hardly ever get destroyed such as the pumps and stuff. Thanks for the great feedback. :up:

I do not want to put a crap beta. But I will try to get something out soon with all subs. then you guys can tweak the Zones.cfg to what you like. I am trying to stay realistic, but would like a gameplay element to keep going if you survive.

Remember to get the highest ranked crew for qualification. it will help alot with repairs.

EDIT:
I upped the comparment HP by 20%, plus give a better chance for at least one engine/electric/topr tube/scope/propeller/rudder to survive so you can keep playing.

[VON_CAPO]

Long weekend. Just got back. :-j Halloween.

Damage from long distance DC charges. I am using a DC blast of 20m. I should have included it with that alpha. :cool: The stock game is set for 40m and that would really hurt your sub. RuB is set for 15m blast.

I am not trying to make a super tank sub. A couple of close DC should kill you slowly 'Die Hard'. You can however, place you own favorite Zones.cfg in the Mod.

I also tend to agree the watch tower gets destoyed a bit too much and for gameplay I will adjust it up.

Plus the batteries/engines tend to get nailed too much. I also agree the same idea as gouldjg, make one engine stonger than the other just for gameplay sake. Plus one torpedo tube to survive more. I also make the observation scope more stronger.

Some items hardly ever get destroyed such as the comressor and stuff. Thanks for the great feedback. :up:

I do not want to put a crap beta. But I will try to get something out soon with all subs. then you guys can tweak the Zones.cfg to what you like. I am trying to stay realistic, but would like a gameplay element to keep going if you survive.

Remember to get the highest ranked crew for qualification. it will help alot with repairs.
I am looking forward to it. :yep:
:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

[Jungman]

I do make this important observation about Health Points and Armor. It is important.

A DC is set for damage from 170 to 230. If you make any system say the Diesel engine above that value of 230 max, then you will never have a destroyed system. You can fix it over and over forever. The only way to destroy it is if you got hit again, while that system is under repair, to cause it to be destroyed.

I want a chance for the engine or something vital to be destroyed immediately, but a set up where one can maybe surive at least one 'killer' DC hit. It may not be 100% realistic, but if you survive something like that, you may as well have a chance to get home. I am just making a bit below the 230 points maximum since then only a direct hit will really take out both diesel engines for example.

That way I avoid the Super Sub from taking damage way too much, because the system are gone and cannot be repaired. It will cause a realistic damage model and slow death. Others may wish too use another Zones.cfg for more effect, but this is an important part for me. Again, you can use my Zone changes or anyone elses to thier liking.

I notice in the submarine.sim file you can set the 'damage zone radius' for a comparment to receive damage. That maybe useful to limit damage to an area that is getting unrealistic damage hits from a DC rather far away. I hoped that armor level would help absorb this damage, but it maybe it only applies to shell explosions (so set armor to zero may not matter under water as gouldjg said).

I hope that makes sense. OT I see you got the Atmosphere Mod released, I like to check it out. I been pretty busy with this project to help out much. Good job :up:

[Marhkimov]

OT also


Jungman,

I'm glad you want to try the atmospheric mod out. It should work 100% correctly, but you should make backups before you install it. I don't want to be responsible for messing up your system. You, of all people, have a lot more modding and testing to do! :lol:

Best regards,
Marhkimov

[ICBM]

P.S. Jungmann could you infom us of when you are planning a release full version.

P.S. Jungmann could you infom us of when you are planning a release full version.

:D

P.S2. Jungmann could you inform us......*Shuts up now* :P

[Marhkimov]

P.S. Jungmann could you infom us of when you are planning a release full version.

P.S. Jungmann could you infom us of when you are planning a release full version.

:D

P.S2. Jungmann could you inform us......*Shuts up now* :P

P.S3. Jungmann could you inform us of when you are planning a full release version? Jungmann could you inform us of when you are planning a full release version? Jungmann could you inform us of when you are planning a full release version? Jungmann could you inform us of when you are planning a full release version?


And P.S4. Oh, and Jungmann, could you inform us of when you are planning a full release version? Thanks! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[gouldjg]

Happy Halloween folks

p.s. 5

Is there any chance of a monster release to coincide with the day? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

:88) :huh: :88) :huh: :-j :88) :huh: :-j :88) :huh: :-j

[Hartmann]

I hope that in my night patrol don´t see any phantom ship or boat sailing in the fog with the skeleton crew :stare: :88) :dead:
:-j

[Pablo]

I am not trying to make a super tank sub. A couple of close DC should kill you slowly 'Die Hard'. You can however, place you own favorite Zones.cfg in the Mod.

I also tend to agree the watch tower gets destoyed a bit too much and for gameplay I will adjust it up.

Plus the batteries/engines tend to get nailed too much. I also agree the same idea as gouldjg, make one engine stonger than the other just for gameplay sake. Plus one torpedo tube to survive more. I also make the observation scope more stronger.

Some items hardly ever get destroyed such as the pumps and stuff. Thanks for the great feedback. :up:

EDIT:
I upped the comparment HP by 20%, plus give a better chance for at least one engine/electric/topr tube/scope/propeller/rudder to survive so you can keep playing.
Jungmann,

For what it's worth, David Westwood's Anatomy of the Ship: The Type VII U-boat gives the following thicknesses for the pressure hull (in mm):

Tropedo tubes: 4-6
Forward torpedo room (top): 16 - 17.5
Forward torpedo room (bottom): 12-16
Forward crew quarters (top): 18
Forward crew quarters (bottom): 12
Control room, radio, sonar (top): 22
Control room, radio, sonar (bottom): 9
Conning tower: 32
Aft crew quarters (top): 18-18.5
Aft crew quarters (bottom): 12
Diesel engine room (top): 12.5
Diesel engine room (bottom): 12
Electric motor room (top): 17
Electric motor room (bottom): 11.5
Aft torpedo room (top): 16
Aft torpedo room (bottom): 8-10
Aft torpedo loading hatch (top): 15

This work notes that the pressure hulls of the Type VIIC and the Type VIIC/41 had the same thickness, but the Type VIIC/41 had stronger steel, leading to a stronger pressure hull.

Hope this helps

Pablo

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Cool info Pablo!

[Jungman]

Conning tower: 32

It shows the conning tower was well armored and should last longer under DC blast, but the reason why they blow off quick is because there is no way to repair them under water and most DC are hitting from the top down blast.

Has anyone got a front torpedo tube to be destroyed without getting a death screen, in any mod??

[gouldjg]

check through some older versions of Hollywood mods.

I used to add ammo as a cargo on a number of things to compensate on the higher compartment HP. I used critical chance to set balances.

It works well but you need to test it quite a lot.

Is that what you wanted to know?

Also if you start adding ammo to areas ensure you change the Basic cfg to give the men a chance.

I only change the overall protection and not the individual HP

[Jungman]

I think what I will release is a basic Zones.cfg that 'works' (nothing fancy just the basic 'must have changes' from feedback).

It seems to be OK for me, a DC that should kill me in real life just may very well leave me hopelessly dying a slow death as it should have been with vital systems destroyed. So goes the name 'Die Hard' your already dead, you just do not know it, but you may just 'survive' that direct killer hit by a DC.

If people want a long drawn out super Uboat tank that can handle multiple DC hits and walk away with minor damage, then this mod is very portable for use in other Zone.cfg -Then everyone can use their own favorite Zones.cfg.

Too many variables and tweaking! :dead:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Sounds like a good plan Jungman! :up:

[gouldjg]

Jungmann You have done a great job already. :up:

Like you said,

There are just too many variables to give everyone their own personal versions of reality and it gets to become a very demanding testing strain on yourself. Then there is all the little disagreements about stuff that only a dead sub crew would know in real life.

Your Golden Rule is correct and that is the drawn out death but it has to be almost a certain death with very lucky or tactical escapes.

Previously there was no way to get this effect in other mods until you found the location of the Hull HP.

Now that you have found it, I am sure there will be a number of versions of sub damage mods.

Some may be for gameplay with a tank like sub that can take maybe 3-4 dc close hits.

I personally am going to create as much as a middle ground as possible and as usual will post a thread which explains the latest developments/discoveries and tips for do-it-your-self-tweaks.

I do however want to know what file controls the hedgehogs as I am happy with the DC radius at 15 and its power is fine.

I am not happy with the Hedgehog, Its just never serious enough for me.

p.s. How is your project doing with regards to DC dephs and damage.

It would be great if you could also reccomend your best tweaks with regards to all this weaponry changes I.e. A Jungman complete pack.

Well done


NOW LETS START ON THE SHIPS :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Marhkimov]

NOW LETS START ON THE SHIPS :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Maybe I shouldn't say this on Jungman's thread, but oh well... Let's see...


FIXING THE ISSUE OF YOUR CREWMEN TELLING YOU EXACTLY WHEN ENEMY SHIPS ARE SUNK

I read this idea from another thread somewhere: we should mod it so that ships will slip under the ocean surface before the game engine recognizes them as sunk... Yeah, that is a stupid statement, but what I mean is that we might be able to alter the floatability of ships so that they aren't destroyed until they sink below a certain depth (similar to the u-boat crush depth).

That way, your crew won't notify you of a sunken ship unless it passes below say 20 or 30 meters. And even if we do this, we can make it so that the rest of the damage model will still work normally. For instance, ships will still be rendered as "sunk" if they explode violently.

As for ships sinking in shallow harbors... Umm... We'll have to see about that...

[Soviet_Warlord]

gouldjg, are you planning on adding the cool flying- sailor effects from Hollywood 1.4 once this mod is released? I hope so.

[gouldjg]

gouldjg, are you planning on adding the cool flying- sailor effects from Hollywood 1.4 once this mod is released? I hope so.

All in all I think most of us will be very happy with what Jungmann has done and like he says, its then a matter of personal taste.

Yes I will be doing both a special effects version and as well as Not so special effects one.

I love the sailors flying around on a good kill and will hope the screaming man sound effect goes well with it.

With the new camera capabilities I will now see the men explode out of the planes at close angles.


As far as the ships destroyed problem, I think there may be a way to tweak this.

I want to start a project where we should set unrealistic sinking in options yet tweak flooding and floatability on each class.

I also want to look at what happens when I change the crush depths and HP.

The ships will take a few days before I get a decent enough theory on what can and cannot be done.

I multplied the HP of the Bismark in one test but it still sank even though it took hits on its surface rather than by torp.

Maybe critical = has something to do with this.

Just needs a bit of testing.

[Tikigod]

Awesome Mod!!!! I have been looking for something like this for awhile. I kinda got frustrated with sh3 because it didn't have modeling like this for damage control...seemed like you always died...which was probably the case for most...but, still.....

Has there been any progress on it lately? kinda died off in november of last year.....I never use silly icons but, this mod is definately a :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

Also how is crush depth on it? I remember standard sh3 had problems when faced with alot of hull damage and imploding at 5-10 meters under the surface....has this been fixed? so you actually crush at deeper levels....I understand there should be hull failure for lots of damage but, seems liek it should welcome extreme flooding and sinking to bottom rather than a death screen I only want a death screen and implosion if I sink into the abyss beyond crush depths....otherwise I just want it to sink to the bottom until the crew drowns or runs out of air....

Also where can i get a copy to try out? has a final version been released yet? the beta link is dead...and is there one that is RUB 1.45 compatible?

[Tikigod]

I'm also wondering if it is possible to have an "abandon ship" option for when you are at the surface to motivate you to get up out of the water to save the crew.....the old game aces of the deep had this option which made you want to fight to get to surface to play another day if you got stuck on the bottom....maybe there can be a "milk cow type mod" for a base but available only when you are at surface and with a damaged ship. That way it will simulate some kind of rescue with a busted boat. Also would be nice to have a distress call option available in radio room to increase chances of being picked up.

[HEMISENT]

I too would love to hear that there's been progress on this but I don't think Gouldjg has been heard from for quite some time, don't know about Jjungman either.

[Tikigod]

where did they go? shall we send out a search party? you can't just up and leave when you are onto something like that....who does he think he is now ooo b? :rotfl: man I want to mess around with that damage model and I can't even find a beta....

[Salvadoreno]

i heard U-461 (Jungman and Goudlj) was sent to the Americas and never heard from again. BdU confirms their sinking, possibly from a mine.

[VonHelsching]

Does this has anything to do with the new alleged "suermod"? :cool:


Anyone?

[Anachronous]

Is this still going? Im very interested in trying this mod.

Does anyone have a working download link?

[Tikigod]

I think they enhanced some stuff in Greywolves...but, I'm not sure....the readme really didn't go into detail...but, I did see posts that they were enhancing parts of this or what was Hollywood Pro into Greywolves.....how much I don't know......most of the readme's state stuff was "tweaked" here and there...whatever that means.....I would be interested to to see any developments on this die hard project as well....

[Anachronous]

I think they enhanced some stuff in Greywolves...but, I'm not sure....the readme really didn't go into detail...but, I did see posts that they were enhancing parts of this or what was Hollywood Pro into Greywolves.....how much I don't know......most of the readme's state stuff was "tweaked" here and there...whatever that means.....I would be interested to to see any developments on this die hard project as well....

Ah got you. Well im not one for installing mod packs. I prefer to pick and choose, and place some stuff in myself. I would be interested in getting this file to see exactly what was done if this isnt going to be continued.

Does anyone have the alpha?