Hospital ship in RND patrol results

[Wulfmann]

I am posting the results of my first patrol with hospital ships here because the original thread was taken over by X-1 related shenanigans. :rotfl: :damn:

Iambecomelife’s hospital ships can cause serious changes in SH3 more than one might initially think. Good changes, if you like thing more complicated, as I do!
I added the NHOS throughout my RND mission file both as part of convoys and as single ships. I had already done this with Serg’s 2 ships and it is having Serg’s transport that makes the hospital ships so interesting and even scary.
Now they can pop up in the middle of a convoy but look like Serg’s transport until you ge close enough to ID them and as a single that is not as easy as one might think, particularly at night and with bad weather.
Consider the 10th patrol of the U-94.
After sinking 3 single ships, I patrolled off Gibraltar. Intercepting a convoy with many escorts (my other edit adding more escorts all 3 or 4 rated) I slipped past the DD and got into the convoy. Because I have reduced the tonnage for all the ships, I spotted 3 of Serg’s lined up and knew they could be sunk with a torpedo each, if hit correctly. As I lined up the first transport I had set up perfect for a 90 shot to take him out and then angle the boat to make a 30 degree shot so to hit the second transport square.
The first was hit perfectly and he was destroyed. I angled my boat for the second and realized it was a hospital ship.
Damn, the escorts are coming from every direction and I must wait until the third ship comes around. I damaged a C2 with my stern tube and was able to sink the KGN with one fish as 2 Frigates opened fire on my scope. I hit flank and hid behind a C3 trying to get close enough for a shot on the damaged C2 but the risk was too great as a corvette was coming at me from the bow with another from starboard. 4 is more than one should have to deal with, IMO so I crash dived in hopes of another shot at the C2. I made a couple turns I knew would put me under and beside merchants to 120 and came back up in hopes of a shot.
Instead, I came up next to a Frigate, with another close by. Something moved on the Frigate. It must have been hedgehog throwers as DCs hit the water near by but over shot as I was so close. I crash dived and did a 90 but was hit by DCs and my hull was down to 69% so I felt a real Kaleun would think of the risk to the men and luckily evaded (although I thought I was a goner!!)
I set sail for Brest and half way home got the notice of a ship. It was dark, with heavy seas and wind with moderate visibility. It was a transport but which one? I could not risk a hospital and that -10,000 renown. I had to be sure. I made an intercept course and kept looking through the UZO until I was so close I ran into the damn ship. Emergency reverse!!! I was pretty sure it was not a hospital and could not have gotten closer. The ramming caused serious damage and my hull integrity was 1%!!!! Not a misprint, that is one percent!!! I fired a fish and took it down. The kill was 3800 tons (I told you I reduced the tonnage!!) and the Hospital would have been 12,000 so I knew I was OK as long as a bird did not crap on the boat and sink me!! I made it home with 4 fish in the tubes but at 1% I could not risk any further damage.
The Hospital ship adds a dimension of hesitation that was nearly a disaster once and cost me a ship or 2 in the convoy and a couple that I would have gone for on the way home.
It was what dictated the patrol to a great extent.
That makes it a very important add on, IMO
But, unless it is added (along with Serg’s transport) to the RND file that is meaningless. Jason, take note!!

Wulfmann

Even i good lighting positive ID is not that positive until close enough to be sure.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/NHOS-1.jpg

[Charlie901]

Sounds cool :up:

Wondering though, if Hospital Ships were all that common, though IRL, in convoys, due to the excellent example you just provided?

[iambecomelife]

They actually shouldn't spawn in convoy, since they become legitimate targets if they do. If you are familiar with the mission builder you should probably place them along special routes as lone merchant traffic in the rnd layer.

[Charlie901]

They actually shouldn't spawn in convoy, since they become legitimate targets if they do. If you are familiar with the mission builder you should probably place them along special routes as lone merchant traffic in the rnd layer.


If travelling alone, would they have ever been escorted by Destroyers?

[Achtung Englander]

....also how do we know they aren't full of healthy tommie soldiers and the allies using hospital ships as covers - the dirty swinehoods.....sorry.....sorry...svinehoods

[joea]

You really are unfair, you're the one who asked me to post the links to the thread at ubi.com about possible pirating when I just posted a one liner for iambecomelife and you accuse me of starting the shenanigans. :roll: Thanks for the test anyway.

[Woof1701]

Normally hospital ships tried to stay out of the line of fire as much as possible. A hospital ship in the company of armed escort vessels would probably be in more danger than travelling alone with lights on. Any uboat commander seeing a blacked out ship escorted by destroyers would immediatle think that it were an especially valuable target and attack it. The chance of identifying a blacked out hospital ship at night are very slim.

[BladeHeart]

I have come across a few small convoys of 2 ships, which I would consider acceptable for the Hospital ship. :hmm:

Could anyone tell me which RND groups govern the single merchants and these 2 ship convoys? :up:

Thanks :)

:lurk:

[Bill Nichols]

Here is an interesting historical tidbit about hospital ships, escorts, and international law:

"In 1937, the question was raised as to whether a hospital ship should not waive the protection of the [Geneva] Convention when being escorted by warships since it would then no longer be possible to stop and search it. In fact, that was the position taken by certain countries during the Second World War. A hospital ship is obviously bound to lose its immunity under the Convention if it is being escorted by warships, except when the escort vessels are minesweepers in order to ensure a safe passage. One would, however, have to be able to prove the fact conclusively, which would most often be impossible. In the course of their duties, hospital ships are often obliged to get in touch with warships, and one of their tasks is to follow naval squadrons. It would be difficult to determine objectively whether a hospital ship was accompanying warships or was being escorted by them.
"On the basis of the opinion expressed by the experts in 1937 one may therefore formulate the following principle as being necessary and sufficient to solve this problem and any others which may arise in connection with the interpretation of the present paragraph: if hospital ships draw near to warships, they do not lose the protection of the Convention but they may in fact expose themselves to danger."

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/0/594d0c1b1db554b8c12563cd00423f3f?OpenDocument


--------------------------------

It is also interesting to note that, under current International Law,

"Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;

(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;

(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;

(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or

(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

http://www.cicr.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/57JMSU?OpenDocument&View=defaultBody&style=custo_print


So, shouldn't I be allowed to attack any merchant (but, not hospital) ship in a convoy, even neutrals, without losing reknown? :hmm:

[Wulfmann]

Joea, Sorry if it sounded like I was getting down on you. I was not. I just didn't want to compete with the war thing as this mod deserves to be dealt with without that problem. Was not doing it towards you but the following posts after yours led me to believe that was now dominating the thread. The shenanigans was about the many post and was a joke, no more.

Bill, great post, very helpful.

I will personally leave the hospitals in my convoys because they throw a wrench into the whole mess. I have one in every 4 convoys as a possible spawn and about 1 in 6 that will spawn one ship.
That causes me to be careful about those long range pot shots.
I was detected last night trying to get into a convoy and was about to let a spread fly and crash dive. I saw a transport and could barely make out it was a hospital. I had to hold my fire and was taking damage to do so. I sank a DD with homing torpedo but there were 2 Frigates and a corvette with 2 armed trawlers about 50 yards away hitting me. I tried to hide behind a C3 that they blasted horribly but that then ran over my boat.
I must inform the new widows of U-94 that their husbands died gallantly but the Kaleun was an ass for arrogantly fighting such odds and not thinking of his men when the risk was beyond reasonable.
The hospital ship was the catalyst for this loss. I like that extra dimension.
The fact any of Serg’s transports could be a hospital means I must be extra careful.

As far as neutrals go? I changed it so there is no penalty for sinking neutrals. Problem solved.
Now my policy is simple:
“I'll kill’em all and I'll kill anyone that gets in the way of me killen anyone “

Wulfmann

[andy_311]

I also have put the hospital ship into my RND mission file so it appears in some convoys but not seen any yet,.
At present am in mid42 in game so No neutrals will appear in any of my convoys normally I wouldn't hit a hospital ship but as the war goes on I have re-edited my torpedo loadout and use accoustic torpedos and I've seen those fish miss there target and hit something else,I think I will have to re-edit the renown on this ship I don't fancy loseing 10K renown for a mistake.

[Wulfmann]

But it was just that which dictated my actions resulting in my sinking. The point? It causes a dilema, a different twist. That is what is so cool about this, IMO. To each their own!!

Wulfmann

[joea]

Joea, Sorry if it sounded like I was getting down on you. I was not. I just didn't want to compete with the war thing as this mod deserves to be dealt with without that problem. Was not doing it towards you but the following posts after yours led me to believe that was now dominating the thread. The shenanigans was about the many post and was a joke, no more.

...Sad patrol story...
“I'll kill’em all and I'll kill anyone that gets in the way of me killen anyone “

Wulfmann

No problem dude, I just really want to support the modders, which I see you do too. Anyway, I've changed my cfg also to get some renown for neutrals, 0.5 times ( I don't purposely sink single neutrals but if they're in a convoy :smug: they goin down man!) . But I gather the hospital ship is always -10000, good I like that...makes it interesting. :rock:

[andy_311]

I just seen the hospital ship in a convoy I just intercepted looks great until two fish smacked into her and sank her (I was aiming for a T3 )darn them acoustic torpedo's they just cost me 10000 renown must re-edit that -10000 renown

[Woof1701]

Thanks Bill for the post. That's exactly what I was searching for.
So for me the hospital ships should stay out of the convoys. It's simply not reasonable to have them there in any case. What are they supposed to DO in a convoy? Picking up stray survivors of sunk merchants is neither their job, nor could they stop anyway. In addition a lone ex-liner converted to a hospital ship would be able to make the crossing in a fourth of the time a convoy takes.

I'm looking forward to a new Ops Mod. Maybe hospital ships will be included at cetrain sites like the D-Day invasion. Would be a hell of mission to see the large ships bombard the French coast while I try to sneak in and score a hit :-)
BTW: where hospital ships present at D-Day?


The problem with the neutrals in convoys came up a few months ago. I also solved it by changing the cfg file and thus declaring all neutral ships enemies. BUT I restrain myself NOT to sink any neutral ships outside convoys, and if I can't identify a ship I won't attack it. Period.
But if I sink a T3 in a convoy I want full renown for it, no matter whether it's British, American or Norwegian.

[andy_311]

Am just curious say for example a destroyer encounters a hospital ship in this game I doubt if an AI destroyer would have any quams in putting couple of dozen shells into her and sink her.
Wasn't there a case that occured in the baltic in wwII when aussian sub took one out the loss of life was higher than the Titanic disaster (I could be wrong)
Just because It's got the red cross emblems on it doesn't mean it's carrying injured personnel

[AG124]

That was the Wilhelm Gustlov, which was a troop transport carrying over 9,000 civilians. She wasn't a hospital ship, but she was a former passenger liner and the disaster did claim more lives than the Titanic sinking.

There is a book on the sinking called The Damned don't Drown, but I think it's out of print.

[Woof1701]

Am just curious say for example a destroyer encounters a hospital ship in this game I doubt if an AI destroyer would have any quams in putting couple of dozen shells into her and sink her.
Wasn't there a case that occured in the baltic in wwII when aussian sub took one out the loss of life was higher than the Titanic disaster (I could be wrong)

You might refer to the Wilhelm Gustloff, a German cruise liner which was converted into a hospital ship and also took on thousands or refugees who were fleeing from the advancing Russian Army. A Russian sub sank the ship and a few days later sank another large refugee ship called "Steuben". Both ships didn't fly the red cross as far as I know, however it was clear that it wasn't a military operation but a rescue mission.

The overall loss of life is estimated to be over 10.000 people. Most of them women and children. A third refugee ship was sunk a few days later with another 7.000 casualties. Those sinkings can be considered one of the largest war crimes committed in WW2.

Just because It's got the red cross emblems on it doesn't mean it's carrying injured personnel

Well normally the Red Cross was generally not misused to smuggle material or personnel or protect some operation from being attacked. If a country would've done that on a large scale, the enemy surely wouldn't have hesitated to attack anything even when showing a red cross.

However a more or less common practice was to OPENLY store war material near field hospitals and red cross units in order to prevent the enemy from attacking it. The Americans did that as well as the Germans in WW2.

[AG124]

I believe I have read about one case in which a British hospital ship (the Newfoundland) was attacked and sunk by German aircraft in 1943.

Here is an article which briefly mentions it - maybe someone else can find a more detailed one:

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/obits.asp?ObitID=17268&PubDate=2/21/2005

As was mentioned earlier, the Japanese hospital ship Awa Maru was sunk in the Pacific as well.

Speaking of the Titanic, in WW1, her sister ship Britannic was sunk while serving as a hospital ship - the sinking has never been proven to have been a sub attack though and may have been caused by a mine. Hospital ships back then had yellow funnels, which looks better than white to me.

http://members.aol.com/WakkoW5/britannic.html

http://website.lineone.net/~britannic98/

[Bill Nichols]

Thanks Bill for the post. That's exactly what I was searching for.

The problem with the neutrals in convoys came up a few months ago. I also solved it by changing the cfg file and thus declaring all neutral ships enemies. BUT I restrain myself NOT to sink any neutral ships outside convoys, and if I can't identify a ship I won't attack it. Period.
But if I sink a T3 in a convoy I want full renown for it, no matter whether it's British, American or Norwegian.

That's a great idea. Can you tell me how to do this?

[Wulfmann]

I agree hospital ships would likely not be in a convoy. But, there are many things that are not quite right about this game and I feel it makes for better play to add a few.
I was attacking a convoy last night mid 1942. I could get close enough to launch into it but knew a transport was there and did not risk it. By having just a few possible, it changes your shoot at anything attitude and I like that.
I had taken out 3 escorts 2 with hom fish and had a bow and stern homy ready for the next one. I fired, he didn’t go down???? I turned and fired the stern, no hit????
I crash dived and got to0 far away to retake the convoy. Then I got “torpedo impact”, enemy unit destroyed. I was mortified. But, it was small cargo, my only merchant in the convoy (the other hom boy hit a big cargo, damaged.) That adds something extra, IMO.

As far as my additional escorts 3 and 4 rated; I was sunk on my first 1942 patrol, gun fire, DCs and rammed by a merchant, sunk on my third patrol by DCing and sunk on my first patrol by Catalinas 100 miles west of Brest. Sunk 3 times in 5 patrols. I think I have finally got it hard enough, LOL

As far as worst atrocities, I assume you mean nautical. The 10.5 million (4.5 Million Jews and 6 million gentiles) killed in the camps might be the worst!!!

Wulfmann

[Woof1701]

Thanks Bill for the post. That's exactly what I was searching for.

The problem with the neutrals in convoys came up a few months ago. I also solved it by changing the cfg file and thus declaring all neutral ships enemies. BUT I restrain myself NOT to sink any neutral ships outside convoys, and if I can't identify a ship I won't attack it. Period.
But if I sink a T3 in a convoy I want full renown for it, no matter whether it's British, American or Norwegian.

That's a great idea. Can you tell me how to do this?

Yep. It's in the basic.cfg file. There's a subsection about renown looking like this:

[RENOWN]
RenownReachGridObjCompleted=500
RenownPatrolGridObjCompleted=200
CompletedPatrol=100
NEUTRAL=-0
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10
WrongShipSunk=-5000
FirstRankRenown=1000
SecondRankRenown=3500
EndCampaign=-5000

And I simply changed the value from NEUTRAL=-0 to NEUTRAL=1 and I now get full renown.

[Wulfmann]

I also changed the value for reaching and completing the patrol grid so I get little for getting there and more for completing it as well as more for coming back to port. It adds up to the same but its an incentive to complete the missiom. Just my opinion.

Since I greatly reduced the tonnage in ships I also reduced the requirements for crew medals, promotions and renown occordingly so my score, about 50% tonnage of what it was for the same number of ships, does not change the reward for success. I still out score the real aces because I am sinking twice the ships they are but at least I am not running up a million tons in 3 years.

Wulfmann


[RENOWN]
RenownReachGridObjCompleted=200
RenownPatrolGridObjCompleted=300
CompletedPatrol=300
NEUTRAL=1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10
WrongShipSunk=-5000
FirstRankRenown=1000
SecondRankRenown=3500
EndCampaign=-5000

[Woof1701]

I also changed the value for reaching and completing the patrol grid so I get little for getting there and more for completing it as well as more for coming back to port. It adds up to the same but its an incentive to complete the missiom. Just my opinion.

Good idea. I like that!


Since I greatly reduced the tonnage in ships I also reduced the requirements for crew medals, promotions and renown occordingly so my score, about 50% tonnage of what it was for the same number of ships, does not change the reward for success. I still out score the real aces because I am sinking twice the ships they are but at least I am not running up a million tons in 3 years.

Nope ins 6 years :-j
Just kidding. Is that a mod you published? Must've escaped my attention. Will have a look at terrapin's site in the evening!

[quote]
Wulfmann

[Woof1701]

As far as worst atrocities, I assume you mean nautical. The 10.5 million (4.5 Million Jews and 6 million gentiles) killed in the camps might be the worst!!!

You're right of course. It wasn't my intention to size up one atrocity to another, just to show that all parties concerned did some terrible things. The Japanese worked tens of thousands of Chinese to death, the British purposely bombed civilians in the German cities trying to break their will and utterly failing to do that, the Americans incinerated the population of two whole cities full of civilians and let the rest die of exposure, and the Russian government under Stalin turned on their own people and had several million killed.
When it comes to the death toll my ancestors still get the credit for being the worst and I guess it's well-deserved.
However: think about one thing: had the axis powers won the war (and thank god they didn't!) what would you think would've become of the Hiroshima atomic bomb in history?