Question: Updating TMA at will

[N00be]

Hey

I was wondering how I can update a source in the TMA screen that is coming from the towed array or sphere sonar in the moment I want to and not just automated periodically.

I am not really good with the TMA, because I loose the overallpicture after a while (with many contacts, or contacts that are very close to each other), so I find myself dropping the contact and re designating it frequently so the screen is not so messed up with redunant information.

What I do often is using the towed array and the spheresonar to see where the lines cross in the TMA view. Thats where the target should be, right?

Unfortunately, the towed array picks the signal up much earlier than the sphere, so I need another source (ESM or active intercept) at the same time. That works quite well for me, but my problem is, that I can only press "MARK" on things like ESM, scope etc, but not at the sonar waterfall display. Now if I need a TMA input from 2 sources (towed array and ESM for example) syncronized so I can see where those 2 lines cross, I cannot mark the source with the towed array, but instead I have to wait until it automatically updates through the tracker, and then quicly mark the target with the ESM to see where the lines cross in the TMA. Is there a way to manually "mark" the target with the towed array?

Thanks!

[LuftWolf]

I usually do this by accident, but I'm pretty sure if you drop the tracker currently assigned to the contact (NOT drop the contact, but just remove the letter tracker) and then reassign a tracker, the most current bearing information should be passed on to the TMA.

I'm actually going to check this now... NOPE I'm wrong, sorry. :-? :oops:

I should do my own TMA more often... :doh:

[N00be]

Hehe, I tried that too :)

[darksythe]

I was wondering how I can update a source in the TMA screen that is coming from the towed array or sphere sonar in the moment I want to and not just automated periodically.

I believe that the TMA plot is updated every four minutes to help with the mathematical aspect of plotting eg a ship traveling at X speed for Y minutes travels Z nm (

6 minute rule.(X[speed] * 200 = Y[distance] {in yards} Y is the yards traveled in 6 minutes.))

this may be unrelated not sure veterns assistance here.

What I do often is using the towed array and the spheresonar to see where the lines cross in the TMA view. Thats where the target should be, right?

This is true if triangulation is used if not your just using a different sensor to feed the same information that the towed arry would be feeding.

for example to use triangulation take a reading with towed array change your course by 90*? run for a few minutes and get another bearing to target draw the 2 readings out and where they intercept should be the aproximate position of the ship is. If im wrong someone please correct me.

all of your TMA lines will cross eventually depending on your LOS(Line Of Sight) to the target so using this crossing as where the ship is is generally a bad idea unless you have made a signifigant course change and can fiqure it out using triangulation.

TMA is a prolly one of the more difficult things to learn about, it takes time and practice to do so spend some time reading up on it here on the forums and youll be setting yourself up for success on the topic. there are alot of great guides written out there on it i suggest also checking out www.subguru.com

[LuftWolf]

Once you learn how much the dot stack is your friend, it becomes a bit easier. ;)

[N00be]

I undertstand. Its not like I m not trying to advance in my TMA skill :)


You write


This is true if triangulation is used if not your just using a different sensor to feed the same information that the towed arry would be feeding.



Help me out here. Why can I use any other sensor? The TA is far behind my ship, so its the only source that has a slight offset to my sub. If I combine it with another source (ESM) I can immediatelly say where I my target is (not course etc, but at least I have the exact location)

http://www.verloren.org/darkreaper/gaming-related/dangerous-waters/synced-sonar.jpg
(white line can be any sensor)
My problem is, that I cannot synchronize the towed array with ESM and send both bearings to the TMA at will. I can do it for ESM, but I cant do it for sonar. I just want to break the 4 min auto update and tell the sonar: Hey I need TMA update right now!
Also, when I designate a target with the towed array, and at a later time designate the same target with the sphere array (and merge them) the TMA updates the different inputs (TA / Sphere) at different times, and not simultaniously. I have to kick the contacts and redesignated them with TA and sphere and merge them quickly so I get the updates of both simultanously to use them like in the picture.

[LuftWolf]

Ah, I think I may have an answer for you.

The TMA is not used for triangulation per se, so typically the goal is not to have simultanous input from sensors with different positions. This method is usually used for air platforms with no TMA, that can drop buoys around targets to "bracket" them.

The TMA process merges different sensor information, bearing changes over time from position trackers and speed from DEMON analysis, to create a series of "best fit" solutions, which are later narrowed down and ruled out based on maneovering of ownship and refining of target identification which leads to more accurate speed reports from the DEMON analysis.

So, you see, you are using the TMA in a way that I'm not sure it was intended, although certainly effective, especially when combined with more traditional TMA methods.

I hope this helps. :)

Cheers,
David

[darksythe]

well looking at the example when you draw it out makes perfect sense to me now what you are saying. however i guess this model depends on whether or not the TA info is being processed in relation to the sensor itself or if it is processed from the boat..? this i am not quite sure on myself. one way to fiqure it out is to design a mission where you know where the contact is going to be at position yourself so that you can simultaniously get the target with both sensors see if the range is correct by turning show truth on and see if your tma plot matches it or not.

However IMHO i think that this is a very bad way to do business due to the fact that if your trying to track a contact that is a signigant distance away from you your not going to get it on your spherical array for quite some time it is best to learn how to do TMA if you want to have a fighting chance. Out in the deep it usually comes down to who can get a good firing solution first. If your playing a opponent who is good at tma and you both acquire each other at the same at distance you will prolly make 1 more dive then you do surface. :down: this is very bad to do. so my best recomendation is master TMA it is as LuftWolf said your friend. A very good friend at that. if you would like help on learning to do tma better you can give me a shout at jfc_dcarksythe@comcast.net (MSN Messenger) this morning and we can do some dives together.

Other than that learn tma it is the only option :D
I wish you fair winds and following seas.

[Bellman]

With respect the above references to four minute updates are incorrect.

There is an error in the manual and an official 'errata' document can be found in the manual folder or on the cd.
The following text is misleading: ''As long as a tracker is tracking, bearing information is sent to
the TMA in two-minute intervals.''

Change to: Once a contact is marked and a tracker is assigned, bearing information is sent to TMA.
The first returns are time-averaged so the second line of bearing does not appear on the TMA Plot until four
minutes after the contact is designated. Thereafter bearing information is sent to TMA in TWO-MINUTE
intervals as long as a tracker is assigned and the contact is still detected.

The capitals are mine. ;)

[N00be]

Okay thanx for your info! As I said earlier, I never intended to avoid learning the TMA (already doing), but the method I pictured is just an _additional_ method next to the normal use of the TMA. It works fine :)
Unfortunately noone could tell me if I can manually tell the sonar to update the TMA when I need it. So I guess thats a no?

[darksythe]

With respect the above references to four minute updates are incorrect.

There is an error in the manual and an official 'errata' document can be found in the manual folder or on the cd.
The following text is misleading: ''As long as a tracker is tracking, bearing information is sent to
the TMA in two-minute intervals.''

Change to: Once a contact is marked and a tracker is assigned, bearing information is sent to TMA.
The first returns are time-averaged so the second line of bearing does not appear on the TMA Plot until four
minutes after the contact is designated. Thereafter bearing information is sent to TMA in TWO-MINUTE
intervals as long as a tracker is assigned and the contact is still detected.

The capitals are mine. ;)

I didnt read the manual so now i know lol. As for manualy overiding the tma update freq i dont think that it is possible maybe there is some doctrine editing available for this?

[Bellman]

Doubt it - poss hard coded but I really dont know. Ask jsteed, Ludger, Luftwolf etc ;)

[LuftWolf]

I'm not entirely sure about update intervals from sensors being passed on to the TMA, but doctrine files only modify AI behavior.

[Molon Labe]

All trackers update on two minute intervals, and those intervals (as far as I can tell) are the even minutes on the clock...NOT two minutes after you marked the target. All sonar bearings should update simultaneously.

Only the Kilo allows you to manually mark a sonar bearing; the SSN's only have trackers.