Damage profiles

[Ghost Dog]

I've been reading some late 80's materiel on cold war subs and alot of concern was expressed about Soviet double-hull construction on submaries. also the use of titanium on hulls such as Alfa and Sierra.

so, this gets me wondering. most subs in DW only need one torp to kill them. even a mk 50 will kill with one shot. how realistic is this? were the fears of the cold war exageratted or have things just been made simple for gameplay.

in reality, one might assume that it would take more than one ADCAP to sink an Oscar class. (unless you believe that that really happened in August, 2000)

I know Kapitain is gonna jump on this one.... :D

[LuftWolf]

As a partial answer to that, the version of our mod that will be released today or tomorrow will model the following: Oscar will need multiple hits from LWTs and Typhoon will require multiple ADCAPs. Also, indirect hits from LWTs may only cripple subs rather than kill them outright. There is a lot more on this in the readme that will be posted soon to our mod thread.

Rest assured for Multi-Players, all playable subs will still die from a single direct torp hit from any playable platform torpedo, except for the SET-53, but then again, who has actually HIT *anything* with one of those...?

Cheers,
David

[compressioncut]

"Mission kills" versus "Platform kills." A lightweight torp, a single, is supposedly okay to mission kill - i.e. take away a target sub's ability to perform effectively - most any SSN.

A platform kill would take probably take multiple hits. Someone once told me that NATO estimates it would take around a dozen Mk.46/54 to platform kill an Oscar II. I don't know how full of crap that guy might be, but seeing as how the warhead is just about equivalent to 300lbs of TNT (same as a WWII depth charge), I can see it.

[N00be]

Just wondering: Doesnt it depend on where the torp hit? A torp hitting the deapth control and taking out emergany blow can make a sub go belw crushdepth. Or a hit that damages the reactor, so the crew is toasted. Or a hit that makes the subs ammunition explode in the torp room. Or what about a hit that floods the com room? I mean, there is a big random factor if you go down with one hit, or?

Thats also my main improvement for DW: I am used to damage control screens from WW2 subsims. I really miss a detailed damage system in DW. A scheme where one can see the overall status of the compartments. Where you have to order repair teams to the compartment etc.
Thats what I loved about B17-2 : You felt as if you were really involved, managing the crew, the damage, not just the instruments. :)
Sorry, Im ranting :)

[Kapitan]

typhoon and oscar designed to take direct hits from enamy torpedos the stress test on murmansk a few year back showed this (before she was scrapped)

the huge bulk helps as a dampner in a torpedo attack which stop the ship bouncing so much and thus stops it breaking its back same also true for many larger subamarines

as for alfa and sierra both dive deep alfa 750 meters (aprox) which is right on the outer limit of the ADCAPS capibility but at 750 meters the alfa would be smashed to bits the presure the ADCAP would force around the hull would be sufficent to crush it at that depth otherwise yeah id say it could survive a torpedo.

the sierra can dive to 850m max which means its unlikely to be torpedoed at that depth ADCAPS cannot go that deep so the sierra is safe again if it did get hit then its probable it would survive.

nearly all submarines have escape pods so if a submarine does sink then the crew can escape in these pods it wasnt used on kursk because the pod was in compartment 4 and every compartment to 7 was flooded.

the only use of this pod so far was that of komsomolets in 1989 but some one did forget to close the hatch properly so when it surfaced two men were blasted out and everyone else inside died one man that was blown out survived the other didnt

[LuftWolf]

Kapitain, are you SURE the ADCAP can't dive that deep?

According to the information that we used for our mod, the MK48 can dive to 850m and the MK48 ADCAP can dive to over 1000m. ;)

I'm pretty sure just about any nick in the hull at those depths would crush even the Typhoon. I mean, if you are 75% crush depth and you lose even a bit of structural integrity, the various laws of physics and their associated curves are way against you.

Of course, the Typhoon is only rated to 400m or so anyway.

[Kapitan]

im sure it was wither fas bellona wikepedia or some other or all that quoted 710m to 760m so its in that range

a typhoon can dive to 500meters which is the absolute limit same as the delta its only the attack boats that go deep

if ya wanna play then i rekon russia should re launch the mike class then we see what the americans have to say about that ;) :P

[Sea Demon]

im sure it was wither fas bellona wikepedia or some other or all that quoted 710m to 760m so its in that range

a typhoon can dive to 500meters which is the absolute limit same as the delta its only the attack boats that go deep

if ya wanna play then i rekon russia should re launch the mike class then we see what the americans have to say about that ;) :P

It wasn't fas. Bellona is unreliable propaganda, and wikepedia?!??!?!?. :roll: The truth is, it's impossible to find actual performance characteristics for American torpedoes. But the small amount of unclassified data I've seen suggests ADCAPS to be rated to 3,000 feet. And if I'm not mistaken, that's just a little deeper than Sierra's listed Never-Exceed depth. Yes the Mike's can go lower than 3,000 feet, but there are no Mike's anymore. And if they made a comeback, I know the USA can build a weapon to meet any threat. That's not a problem. ;)

As far as MK-46's, they seem to have a shallower depth. But Mk-50's list a max depth as that of a Mk-48 ADCAP (3,000 ft.). And one thing that's been missed is that both the MK-50 and MK-48 ADCAPS have shaped charge warheads specifically to penetrate double-hull designs. 300 lbs. of shaped charge with narrow cone/low scattering properties can slice through steel like a hot knife through butter. And these are much more pronounced at deeper depths where hull pressures are extreme. And also what if the torpedo detonated near the rear where the screw(s) are? No more propulsion or maneuvering for the enemy sub. Typhoon and Oscar may have had torpedo survival as a design spec in mind, but it is unlikely that they could survive 1 hit from a modern western torpedo such as ADCAP, Mk-50, or Spearfish. I highly doubt they could.

Sea Demon

[LuftWolf]

The ADCAPs are supposed to have copper-eating (hull eating) outer chemical-reactant warheads that can burrough into hulls and explode inside submarines, like HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank, slow rounds that use plasma to burn through armor rather than kinetic energy) rounds for use against subs.

However, given that the inertial differences between torpedo and target can vary from under 25 kts closing to up to 75-90kts closing (for rear or front shot), I'd imagine the effect of the ADCAP chemical-reactive warhead can vary greatly from impact to impact.

The fun stuff about this is, none of these weapons have ever been used in battle conditions (that we know of), so maybe even the designers don't know how they will perform exactly? :-?

Who knows, maybe even this information is totally incorrect? Well, we DO know that ADCAPs can detonate under keels, even I've seen video of these torpedos breaking old FF's in half. :rock: :arrgh!:

[N00be]

The fun stuff about this is, none of these weapons have ever been used in battle conditions (that we know of), so maybe even the designers don't know how they will perform exactly? :-?

Who knows, maybe even this information is totally incorrect? Well, we DO know that ADCAPs can detonate under keels, even I've seen video of these torpedos breaking old FF's in half. :rock: :arrgh!:

Absolutely. All this argueing makes no sense, unless someone has some proof.

But I have a question:
If the torp breaks the hull by exploding below the ships hull (creating pressure, then vacuum) that means the torp is triggered by a proximity sensor. So if the same type of adcap torp also digs itself into enemy submarine hulls in order to detonate inside the hull, it needs to have 2 settings, or what? Is it triggered by contact or proximity?

[LuftWolf]

I would guess that the hard/software of the launching platform firecontrol system would program the function of the torpedo differently for each type of target.

Of course, in our circles, the ADCAP is also known to fly to moon and collect rock samples before acquiring and homing in on targets. :P

In addition, I've heard the ADCAP shoots fireballs out its arse. ;) :lol:

[Kapitan]

well im not sure about adcap but i do know typhoon and oscar designed for direct hits

[MaHuJa]

Absolutely. All this argueing makes no sense, unless someone has some proof.

Say that to those waging holy wars ;)

Jokes aside, in the absense of proof we go by reasoning. Because of X, situation Y should end up as ...

Problem is, noone is capable of predicting every possible combination of X, or remember to bring every X into a situation Y.


Sometimes, the information brought into the discussion is conflicting.

Some russian subs are built for direct hits, with double hulls and everything
vs
Adcaps are made to blow through double hulls

which takes precedence?

One statement was that adcaps reach ~750m, and another said 1000m. Which is correct? (In this case you have to begin evaluating sources too, but either way we have nothing definite - outside classified info.)

If the torp breaks the hull by exploding below the ships hull (creating pressure, then vacuum) that means the torp is triggered by a proximity sensor
Not necessarily. If you consider the possibility of this simple process in the torpedo electronics, it is possible for it to know the location of its target (almost.. almost... right above - BOOM!) though this could of course open it to exploding on countermeasures and the like.

A magnetic proximity sensor wouldn't work on titanium ships. Which I believe the russians would be capable of building.



For PLAYING purposes (as opposed to modding purposes) we only have to relate to what the game database does though. If you just go with the flow it's much simpler.

[Ghost Dog]

After some quick research on the ADCAP, some sources report the max depth to be on the order of 3,000 ft.

Jane's reports it around 800m. source: http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/juws/juws010202_1_n.shtml

other sites have it around +900m. http://navysite.de/weapons/mk-48.htm and http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48.htm

[Kapitan]

i find janes the most reliable source so id go with janes so the sierra can out dive an adcap acording to janes

[Kapitan]

as im now taking a course well sorta on demolition i shall ask about shape charges so stand by

[Sea Demon]

i find janes the most reliable source so id go with janes so the sierra can out dive an adcap acording to janes

Yeah, right. :lol: That's exactly what Jane's Information Group implied. :roll: :lol:

Sea Demon

[LuftWolf]

Well, there is a point, away from the numbers, when the question becomes: does the torpedo operator need as much bravery to send the remote torpedo to the edge of its operating depth as the Sierra captain needs to take his whole crew to something approaching crush depth? :hmm:

I'm guessing not. :-j

[Kapitan]

well whats the point of arguing about this one

as of next year the two remaining sierra SSN submarines are going to be paid off so the adcap has free range

also the bellona foundation i think it is says 850 meters i think dont quote which means the torpedo could kill a sierra i also find bellona a reliable source even though belona is mainly american

[SeaQueen]

I've been reading some late 80's materiel on cold war subs and alot of concern was expressed about Soviet double-hull construction on submaries. also the use of titanium on hulls such as Alfa and Sierra.

so, this gets me wondering. most subs in DW only need one torp to kill them. even a mk 50 will kill with one shot. how realistic is this? were the fears of the cold war exageratted or have things just been made simple for gameplay.

in reality, one might assume that it would take more than one ADCAP to sink an Oscar class. (unless you believe that that really happened in August, 2000)

I know Kapitain is gonna jump on this one.... :D

Modeling damage is one of those things that's kind of squishy. If you manage to rupture the right pipes at the right depth, it might only take one hit to sink a submarine, without even bothering to hole the hull because of catestrophic flooding.

I'm not really sure anyone really knows how much it would take to sink a given submarine.

[OKO]

i find janes the most reliable source so id go with janes so the sierra can out dive an adcap acording to janes

Kapitain ...
do you REALLY think US, aware of sierra possibilities, won't improve their torps ?
If you, a simple man (as me) can know the sierra can go that deep, could you imagine one second concerned people ignore it ?
And could you one second consider they won't do anything to solve this threat ?
And do you think it's more difficult to built a sub going at 850 meters or to make a torpedo able to do this ?

now, get all these info, shake a bit, and you will find the solution =>

if a russian sub go to 850m, there will be also an US weapon able to do that.
easy to understand isn't it ?

[Ghost Dog]

Considering that there are only a maximum of 3 active Sierra class boats at this time its unlikely that the ADCAP would be 'improved' just to kill 3 submarines in the somewhat unlikely event that its needed to do so.

AND, it bears mentioning that one must consider dive rate! Example: lets say that a 688i sneaks up and rips off a couple of ADCAPS at a Sierra at a range of 6,000 yards. Lets say that the Sierra is at 200 meteres depth. Do you think that the Sierra is going to get below 850 meters in the time it takes those ADCAPS to cover 6,000 yds? Its gonna take those ADCAPS just a bit over 3 minutes to cover that distance at 55 kts. Think a Sierra can dive the extra 650 meters in that time, assuming the russian captain knew about those fish the second they were launched?

This also assumes that the Sierra has room underneath its keel to do this.

[Kapitan]

at the moment there are only two sierra class vessels active the rest have been laid up but these remaining two will not be part of the fleet in 2006

yeah i agree america's ADCAP could reach out an kill a sierra as it could an alfa or akula or victor three but i do know it couldnt get a mike just a shame theres none of them left :(

as for out diving a adcap fat chance torpedos would hit by the time it got to 500 meters

[timmyg00]

Modeling damage is one of those things that's kind of squishy. If you manage to rupture the right pipes at the right depth, it might only take one hit to sink a submarine, without even bothering to hole the hull because of catestrophic flooding.

I'm not really sure anyone really knows how much it would take to sink a given submarine. Bingo!

nearly all submarines have escape pods so if a submarine does sink then the crew can escape in these pods it wasnt used on kursk because the pod was in compartment 4 and every compartment to 7 was flooded. These, realistically, are limited to escapes in water depths of 600 feet or less... not because of any technical limitations, but because of human limitations.

TG

[Kapitan]

yes that is very true take a look at komsomolets they used the pod when the sub was on the bottom about 2000feet i think it was well anyway they released the pod and when it broke surface the presure inside was so great it blew the hatch open and sucked out two crew and killed the other 42 inside