SSGN Behaviors

[stormrider_sp]

I´m always trying to create missions, but they never work as I want or should....

The first thing I do before I create the mission, is a test mission, to actual test the behavior of the AI. I like the idea of editing doctrines, but can´t.

I will post here some results I got by testing.

-Oscar II attacking.
If the Oscar II detected a surface:
If it was stated at the mission editor that it should "attack" (not track, nor avoid) than it will launch few weapons, quickly.
If it was a script "engage" with "weapon" than he will attack with more fury.

If the target is a "remote", I mean, a promoted link, then he won´t launch a salvo, but 1 missile after another, after waiting for a long time. If the target was an Arleigh Burke (L&A Mod 2.0) then it will probably never hit a single missile. Where is the salvo??

If you order 2 SSGNs to attack a single target, then only 1 will attack.

The same goes to my "edited" Ohio SSGN, and its 154 TASM


For submarines.

I would like to know more about tactics.
I know that if the sub is driving a transit traffic than it will be completly blind and unarmed, unaware ship.
Oposed to Transit Search.
But how about, Random, Ladder, Expanding box, Perimeter? Are they searching or just playing ducks in the water?

Sometimes they will launch snapshots when attacked.


I came with this questions because I was building a mission where an american CVN, well defended, operating in the area had to be attacked by russian SSGNs.

There were a few american SSNs defending the CVN perimeter waypoint.
The red side was compoused by 2 groups of 3 subs (2 SSGNs and 1 Akula Imp. and 1 Victor III) and an Akula II.

The concept of the mission was to drive the Akula II into the frontline, detect, classify and promote the link to the SSGNs, acting as a intel. The problem is that the SSGNs will take too long to launch not enough weapons against its targets and the Akula II is then detected and attacked. Oh, a suggestion to Luftwolf&Amizaur: I think the American surface ships´ sonars are way too powerfull... They detect an Akula II farther than a 688 does.
Well the mission didnt worked.

[LuftWolf]

Oh, a suggestion to Luftwolf&Amizaur: I think the American surface ships´ sonars are way too powerfull... They detect an Akula II farther than a 688 does.

American surface ships, with TA's, share the SQR-19, which is the same sensor the FFG has/had. So American ships in this mod are no more sensitive in passive sonar than the FFG in stock DW. Is it possible they had you on active sonar?

Also, I'm not sure but I think the SQR-19 is actually more sensitive than the TB-23 in the real world.

[PeriscopeDepth]

All depends on the mission. If they've got somewhere to go in a hurry (which surface ships do quite often). I think anything over 19 knots and the TA is going to be degraded severely. The total washout speed is 25 knots IIRC.

Edit: And also depends on target speed. And it very well could have been using active sonar.

[Kapitan]

ive been on the run a few times while on my latest mission a jap kongo DDG chased me before i was able to detect him i was only at 10 knots

i did manage to get away but only just

[LuftWolf]

If you didn't have your TA out (as usual) the Kongo should have had you at 10kts, considering the Kongo has a variation of the SQR-19 TA (in the mod and in RL). ;)

[Kapitan]

the kongo picked me up 10 miles away ruffly because she went full speed at me or close to it

[stormrider_sp]

It is hard to believe that a surface sensor can be more effective than a sub one.

[LuftWolf]

The TA's of surface ships drag far under the water so it minimizes surface noise.

Also, why would the TA station of the FFG be so complex if it gave no advantage over the simplier TA station from the subs?

The relative sensitivities of the SQR-19 and the TB-16/23/29 have not been changed at all in this mod (the TB-23 was added in this mod). However, passive sonars have been assigned to appropriate surface platforms, where 90% of warships had no passive sonar at all before.

[Molon Labe]

Maybe when I'm done studying tonight I'll give an ASUW mission a try and see what happens when a 688I tries to pentrate the whole bloody Northern Fleet on its own. I'll report any significant detections by the skimmers.

In two weeks, the rest of you can try it too! Bill's put a pretty good campaign together. :D

[magick]

It is hard to believe that a surface sensor can be more effective than a sub one. Hmm I think these days there is no difference in sonar capabilities between a hi-tech sub and a hi-tech surface warvessel but the advantige stays with the sub because he only have to search the surface:) But I could be wrong:)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8715/6882ot.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Ghost Dog]

makes sense to me. a surface ship can not only hold more men and sensor stations to crunch the data, but also sqeeze more computers in as well. The skimmer just cant hide himself from the subs like a sub can.

i remember it used to be rumored that specialized ASW vessels like the Udaloy have special 'creep' motors for times when they want to quiet down. anybody confirm that?

[Kapitan]

i can udaloy does have creep motors as does the type 23 i belive and the udaloy is an offical ASW unit just like the counter part sovremenny is ASuW

[LuftWolf]

The Oliver Hazard Perry FFG has a "Prairie Masker" noise reduction system that, it has been reported, is very effective in masking noises at low speeds.

I'm not sure, but I'd imagine that it is an active sound dampening system, similiar to what is used in the latest Russian submarines, meaning that it is only effective at fairly low speeds because it generates vibrations that cancel out the normal vibrations generated by the machinery of the ship.

[Rob86TA]

"Prairie Masker" is a ring of small bubbles generated around the ship. Presurised air is injected into the water to create a halo that 'lessens' the amount of noise passing through.

These small bubbles reflect sound back in towards the ship, and lessen the amount of noise that escapes past the ring.

I'm only guessing, but I think it would be very dependent on sea conditions, as strong currents/rough conditions/high speeds would tear the 'mask' away from the ship.

[Ghost Dog]

im assuming this isnt modeled in DW? I know that the masker is something you 'turn on' during ASW operations, you wouldnt have enough compressed air to leave it on all the time.

[Kapitan]

the APU is a good tool for quiet ops so i hear but speed is restricted and so is weather when using

[PeriscopeDepth]

the APU is a good tool for quiet ops so i hear but speed is restricted and so is weather when using

That's interesting, I never thought of doing that. But I wonder if it's like that in real life (tm). I would think that those outboards were not designed for silence.

[compressioncut]

the APU is a good tool for quiet ops so i hear but speed is restricted and so is weather when using

That's interesting, I never thought of doing that. But I wonder if it's like that in real life (tm). I would think that those outboards were not designed for silence.

Haha, no, secondary propulsion, surface or sub, is very noisy - particularly since it's cavitating all the time. There's no need for it, especially as I would bet the Perry doesn't cavitate till around 10 knots, in real life. A twin-screw vessel would even be higher, 15 or more.

Western propeller technology is good enough that they can run main propulsion only. Dedicated, high-quality, well maintained surface ASW units can, if operated correctly, appear very much like submarines in narrowband processing. It's pretty cool (and frustrating, if you are analyzing a gram!). Even low quality vessels can hide a multitude of ills with Praire/Masker.

[SeaQueen]

It is hard to believe that a surface sensor can be more effective than a sub one.

Not necessarily. Blanket statements about sonar performance are almost always wrong. Hull mounted surface ship sonars are not so great passively, true, but active they're typically pretty good and more likely to be used. Towed arrays and VDS on a surface ship can be just as good as on a submarine, and frequently better.

The towed array on an FFG can be a lot more versatile. For example, you can almost always keep it at the best depth for operating by adjusting one's speed and streaming or pulling in cable. A submarine can't always do that by virtue of the fact that frequently the best depth for listening is also the best depth for being detected.

Take a surface duct, for example. If you sit there in the duct, at the same time most of the acoustic energy from a target is being ducted towards you, most of your energy is being ducted towards them. A surface ship has a lot easier time taking advantage of that environment to improve it's sonar performance by virtue of the fact that there's only so much acoustic stealth it can have, so it's not worried about it. They're just looking to optimize their search rate. There's no reason for your sensor to be any better than theirs.

I think a lot of submarine players are used to the idea that everything in the water is just begging to be shot by them. The truth is, a lot of the time, submarines sort of bumble through the water, dazed and confused, occaisionally popping up a mast to resolve some ambiguous information. That's why you hear of them doing things like banging into ferry boats and other submarines every once in a while. It's HARD running blind. To do it well enough to be a little bit LESS blind is really hard.

[compressioncut]

I think a lot of submarine players are used to the idea that everything in the water is just begging to be shot by them. The truth is, a lot of the time, submarines sort of bumble through the water, dazed and confused, occaisionally popping up a mast to resolve some ambiguous information. That's why you hear of them doing things like banging into ferry boats and other submarines every once in a while. It's HARD running blind. To do it well enough to be a little bit LESS blind is really hard.

Yes - the submariner community tries to make everyone believe they are better than they are, and a lot of ASW guys tend to fall into the trap of actually believing it. Whatever - it doesn't bother me. But for a "silent service," they sure do a lot of blathering... :D

[PeriscopeDepth]

Western propeller technology is good enough that they can run main propulsion only. Dedicated, high-quality, well maintained surface ASW units can, if operated correctly, appear very much like submarines in narrowband processing. It's pretty cool (and frustrating, if you are analyzing a gram!). Even low quality vessels can hide a multitude of ills with Praire/Masker.

You're posts are always interesting compressioncut, thanks.

Perhaps the information in the quoted statement could be integrated into the LwAmi mod?

[LuftWolf]

Funny you should mention that...

The American ships in the DB are significantly quietier than other ships, with Japanese, Australian and British being slightly louder. Next are the Russians and the rest of the West and everyone else after that.

The OHP is the quietest warship in the game and does not increase it's noise level until it begins to cavitate at 10kts. I didn't detect it at 9kts with a VLAD at under 5nm! In terms of other American ships, we have left them the same for now as we need to consider game balancing issues and the data on them is less clear and available.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Oh, cool LW. I didn't know that you changed the cavitation speed for the OHP. :)

[LuftWolf]

Actually, that was there in stock DW, but the OHP base sound level was nearly as loud as any other ship, so nobody noticed it until Amizaur ran it through an analyzer tool! :)

[Ghost Dog]

Is there a cavitation chart for surface ships somewhere? i wouldnt mind seeing both a DW 1.01 and one for the mod.

[Kapitan]

i dont think there is a cavitation chart for surface platforms yet availible

[PeriscopeDepth]

Funny you should mention that...

The American ships in the DB are significantly quietier than other ships, with Japanese, Australian and British being slightly louder. Next are the Russians and the rest of the West and everyone else after that.

The OHP is the quietest warship in the game and does not increase it's noise level until it begins to cavitate at 10kts. I didn't detect it at 9kts with a VLAD at under 5nm! In terms of other American ships, we have left them the same for now as we need to consider game balancing issues and the data on them is less clear and available.

Hmmm, in the 3D view my OHP is definitely cavitating (bubbles forming behind screw) under 10 knots. I don't know if the 3D view represents what's actually happening, though?

[FERdeBOER]

The OHP is the quietest warship in the game and does not increase it's noise level until it begins to cavitate at 10kts. I didn't detect it at 9kts with a VLAD at under 5nm! In terms of other American ships, we have left them the same for now as we need to consider game balancing issues and the data on them is less clear and available.

Last week I was playing a mission, went to periscope depth to take a look... and there was a Perry running at 6 knots closer than 5 miles on me!!
I had ANITHING in my TA (Akula II).
At low speed the Perry is very, very quiet.

Maybe this could change the tactics? In this case the periscope or the ESM (if not EMCOM) are the best tool for detecting western warships traveling slow...
And in a convoy attack maybe is better to take out the escorts first...

[Kapitan]

no i go to one side and take out the escorts then run away and come back then hit the main target

[LuftWolf]

Yeah, PD the 3-d view will show the FFG cavitating but that does not reflect the actual sound levels in the game. ;)

[Mau]

This is Jane's has on the Prairie Masker:


Prairie/Masker
Type

Radiated noise suppression system.

Description

The Prairie/Masker radiated noise suppression system is designed to create an impedance mismatch around the parts of the hull which are inherently noisy. Through this mismatch the sound path from the hull or propeller to the surrounding water is blocked or distorted resulting in a very much reduced level of radiated noise or a noise which is very difficult to detect and identify because of its distorted nature.
In sensitive areas such as the region surrounding the machinery compartment, the Masker system is used to disguise LF noise emanating from machinery that radiates through the hull by blowing air through a series of small nozzles mounted in the hull at about 12 psig. The air supply is bled off from the ship's high-pressure gas turbine (if fitted) or supplied by dedicated compressors. The bubbles so created remain trapped along these sensitive regions of the hull and mask the noise that would otherwise be directly radiated into the ocean from the vibrating hull plating.
The other area where noise is a major problem is the propeller. In this case the Prairie system feeds air down the propeller shaft and through small holes in the propeller's leading edge to delay the onset of cavitation. Each machinery compartment has its own Prairie system to supply air to its associated propeller. Prairie also feeds air to the leading edge of the ship's stabilisers to reduce the onset of cavitation. In both systems the air is cooled to reduce to a minimum any possible IR signature.
The disadvantage of this noise suppression system is that at lower speeds the layer of bubbles tends to rise to the surface rather than remain entrained along the hull. A similar effect occurs when the ship experiences a heavy seaway and the bubbles are sheared off by the violent pitching of the hull. In addition the bubbles contribute more noise to the ship's wake, which can increase its vulnerability if it is likely to be attacked by wake homing torpedoes or increase risk of detection by passive sonar systems.

Operational status

Mounted on many surface warships in many navies.

VERIFIED


So not very good
I know that same navies just got rid of it

Mau

[compressioncut]

So not very good
I know that same navies just got rid of it

Mau

It works well - when it works. It's a very high maintenance item, which is why we (Canada) got rid of it, even though it's still listed in most ships' specs. Some CPFs have anechoic tiling on the hull in lieu. That's also pretty high maintenance, though, so it's not a common fit.

Gunk gets into the air holes of the Masker, particularly, quite easily, requiring inordinate amounts of time to clean it. At least that's what I've been told, who really knows.

[Amizaur]

The Analyzer says the cavitation for OHP begins at 20kts. Unfortunately it's not true in the game. Inn the game the cavitation bubbles shows for OHP at speed greater than 5kts, and it IS cavitation - I just checked that the noise level raises by +20 in this moment (like for any other platform cavitating). So the noise profile for OHP is quite simple and IIRC was included in the mod. OHP is quiet NL=68 up to 5kts. Above 5kts cavitation begins and NL raises immediately by +20 to 88. And it stays this way up to 28kts, only for 29kts its a point more.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3476/perryfhgwithcavitation2ew.gif

I would agree that the profile is a bit odd... but it was very similar in stock DW, only the base NL was different, but cavitation was the same from 5kts up I think. I would change it if I knew how to modify cavitation profile, but I don't know unfortunately.

[LuftWolf]

Thanks for the correction Amizaur, I guess I'm still hazy on what the specific parameters of the OHP thrust are. :hmm:

[compressioncut]

The Analyzer says the cavitation for OHP begins at 20kts. Unfortunately it's not true in the game. Inn the game the cavitation bubbles shows for OHP at speed greater than 5kts, and it IS cavitation - I just checked that the noise level raises by +20 in this moment (like for any other platform cavitating). So the noise profile for OHP is quite simple and IIRC was included in the mod. OHP is quiet NL=68 up to 5kts. Above 5kts cavitation begins and NL raises immediately by +20 to 88. And it stays this way up to 28kts, only for 29kts its a point more.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3476/perryfhgwithcavitation2ew.gif

I would agree that the profile is a bit odd... but it was very similar in stock DW, only the base NL was different, but cavitation was the same from 5kts up I think. I would change it if I knew how to modify cavitation profile, but I don't know unfortunately.

So, if I'm reading the chart correctly, CIS for the Perry is 5.5kt? I don't know what the actual CIS for the Perry is, but based on what I do know that seems awfully slow. I'd request 10kts, if you are able to change it, but that might tip the gameplay balance a bit too far into the skimmer's favor. Probably, 8kts would give a decent balance while still allowing a tactically useful range of tow speeds. Although 10 is probably still closer to the actual number.

[darksythe]

I think a lot of submarine players are used to the idea that everything in the water is just begging to be shot by them. The truth is, a lot of the time, submarines sort of bumble through the water, dazed and confused, occaisionally popping up a mast to resolve some ambiguous information. That's why you hear of them doing things like banging into ferry boats and other submarines every once in a while. It's HARD running blind. To do it well enough to be a little bit LESS blind is really hard.

Yes - the submariner community tries to make everyone believe they are better than they are, and a lot of ASW guys tend to fall into the trap of actually believing it. Whatever - it doesn't bother me. But for a "silent service," they sure do a lot of blathering... :D

Was bored and decided to read up some, and just came acrossed this post.

To both of the authors(compressioncut, Seaqueen) that made these statements i would like 2 invite both of you to grab yourself a surface platform and come hunt me down for a little while :D and then if you manage to sink me before i take you out i will conceed to your statements.

this is not intended to be a flame.... just a friendly invite to test theories :)

[OKO]

The OHP is the quietest warship in the game and does not increase it's noise level until it begins to cavitate at 10kts. I didn't detect it at 9kts with a VLAD at under 5nm! In terms of other American ships, we have left them the same for now as we need to consider game balancing issues and the data on them is less clear and available.

Yes, I already saw that on MP games; OHP is the quitest warship I ever met.
That's why I said previously the prairie masker is modelised, but just always turned ON.

[OKO]

To both of the authors(compressioncut, Seaqueen) that made these statements i would like 2 invite both of you to grab yourself a surface platform and come hunt me down for a little while :D and then if you manage to sink me before i take you out i will conceed to your statements.

this is not intended to be a flame.... just a friendly invite to test theories :)

If you take a nuke sub, you will have a MUCH stronger platform than an OHP, I think it's easy to understand that ... perry is just a fregate, and no fregate can survive on 1 on 1 match against a nuke sub.

But if you take a KILO, things are really different.
LOTS of KILO were sunk during our MP match by the perry (say 50/50).
There is WIDE varity of tactics for the perry, who have one big advantage against the KILO => mobility.
And consider a perry is not only a perry but also 2 MH60.

but even without the helo, we had some really fun games on OHPs vs KILOs.
Just yesterday night I sunk one (human manned) with new MK54, fired from 10000 yards (seeker opened at 7000 snake and 10000 circle).
We found him with a DICASS (human helo working on grams), then I get him on my OHP active sonar (using single beam because active is now WAY harder to use -and I suppose much more realistic- with the MOD) then I fired 2 torps to him and evade at 120° from him.

You invited us to test, I'm ready against a KILO with a Perry
ICQ => 16-787-906

[Bellman]

Compressioncut: Gunk gets into the air holes of the Masker, particularly, quite easily, requiring inordinate amounts of time to clean it

Com and SQ wrote (Of submariners):
'' That's why you hear of them doing things like banging into ferry boats'' '' But for a "silent service,"
they sure do a lot of blathering...''

:lol: Guess we divers know who has the 'gunk' in their air holes :rotfl: .............and who does the blathering :-j

[OKO]

Well, we had a very nice MP match with darksythe.
intense and hard, that was great.

I don't think darksythe could say anymore the OHP is a sitting duck against subs :roll:

I think he could say it very balanced beetween KILO and OHP
I sunk him with missiles as he surfaced when my helo was at 5 miles to launch a torp on him
I sent 2 torps on him previously, forcing him to escape and to go away from convoy.
He fired back and we both evading torps.
I tought he was the KILO of the north but he wasn't
this was an IA where I used 4 torps (2 OHP and 2 MH60).
A mistake from me because 2 torps were enought to kill this AI, and the helo was far from darksythe.
So I was without torps, going straight to him to cover my mh60 approach, and suddenly I saw him on surface radar
30 sec after he was sunk with missiles.
But before this he engaged the convoy, damaged one of the 3 target ship.

Maybe he could be more agressive against the convoy to win the game, but he offered a very nice opposition, for a very nice game.

But he could't say anymore OHP is a sitting duck against a KILO
isn't it darksythe ? :roll:

thanks for the game anyway, very pleasant one.

[darksythe]

yes a very good match..
I only surfaced cause i wanted to know what it was like to shoot down a MH-60 from the bridge which i will never attempt again. :dead: Wonder what would of happened if i had just finished sinking that ship? you couldhave got me either way it was a very good mission hopefully we can do it again soon.

Well we did prove that the ai arent any good against a human OHP
:dead:
but it does go to show that the kilo isnt helpless against the OHP with a good skipper at the helm.

[compressioncut]

Was bored and decided to read up some, and just came acrossed this post.

To both of the authors(compressioncut, Seaqueen) that made these statements i would like 2 invite both of you to grab yourself a surface platform and come hunt me down for a little while :D and then if you manage to sink me before i take you out i will conceed to your statements.

this is not intended to be a flame.... just a friendly invite to test theories :)

Hey, that's fine man, but if you think that I'm going to do some close in ASW with a surface ship vs. a sub, you're bonkers :D

But if I get two helos and MPA support, you're on. Well, at least the two helos.

What platform will make any subamariner break four of the ten commandments? An MPA. They'll be toodling along; VROOOOOOM, followed by the splash, splash, splash of sonobuoys, then the SKREEEEEEEEE of a Mk.46, and the end of a heretofore sparkling career taking photographs of aircraft carriers' and container ships' propellers.


Yes, I already saw that on MP games; OHP is the quitest warship I ever met.
That's why I said previously the prairie masker is modelised, but just always turned ON.

I know a lot of guys won't want to hear this, but it's correct. An ASW suface ship can be extremely quiet when operated correctly. "Aggressive standoff ASW" is the order of the day.

[darksythe]

compression cut ive got no problem obliging your helo request name the day and time and ill be there. :D

[Sea Demon]

I know a lot of guys won't want to hear this, but it's correct. An ASW suface ship can be extremely quiet when operated correctly. "Aggressive standoff ASW" is the order of the day.

:rock:

[compressioncut]

I know a lot of guys won't want to hear this, but it's correct. An ASW suface ship can be extremely quiet when operated correctly. "Aggressive standoff ASW" is the order of the day.

:rock:

Yeah, but the sad thing is that those ASW platforms are almost invariabley escorting some hideously loud high value unit (tanker, aircraft carrier), and the only thing they'll be protecting is a flaming datum. Either that, or they sacrifice themselves by getting between the HVU and the torpedo. Such is the life of a skimmer puke :nope: