Wolfpack mod

[sergbuto]

Readme

I succeeded to make a German sub which moves at the periscope depth and attacks Allied shipping with "virtual" torpedoes. The "virtual" torpedoes are invisible 14-inch guns. Unfortunately, I could not get rid of the flash/smoke/traces when guns are firing but it is not really noticable or understandable what is going on, especially when DDs/escorts are attacking submerged AI subs.Since it was not pissible to limit the ammo amount, the gun rotation/elevation is greatly limited and the sub can fire only directly ahead. The sub can be used for creating wolfpacks.

Instructions for use in missions/campaign:

1. The Height value in the unit section, describing the sub in MIS file, should be set to zero. The sub will not move at negative Heights. The sub can not change the depth, i.e. can not dive or surface.

2. It is essential to set the highest speed for the sub to minimize firing time at the target, since it was not possible to limit the ammo amount or firing rate for the guns.Furthermore, DDs/escorts somewhat easy detect the sub and it will not have many chances to survive at low speeds.Note! Since the game somehow subtracts 3 knots from the specified speed in the MIS file, the maximum speed should be set to 11 knots. Then the sub will have 8 knots speed, which is in accord with technical specifications.

I have enclosed a single mission to test wolfpack action.Five AI subs are attacking a convoy with four escorts. The convoy is coming from the player's right-hand side and AI subs are on the right-hand side as well. The mission is rather for observation than for playing. I usually set the speed to one third and switch to AI sub with F12. It is actually interesting to see the difference in attacing efficiency of various DDs.

Unfortunately, Devs has set too high surviving ability for subs. However, when I took it down to the realistic level, the subs were not able to get through the escort screen to the convoy at all. I had to increase it a bit. Nevertheless, the outcome of the mission is very different every time. Sometimes the subs do get to the convoy, sometimes they do not.

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/Wolfpack01.jpg

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/Wolfpack02.jpg

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/Wolfpack03.jpg

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/Wolfpack04.jpg

Download is available on my site.

[Rubini]

Great Sergei! :up:

Feedback later.


Rubini.

[Schultzy]

:o :cool:

You're amazing!

Great work.

[Marhkimov]

But the subs don't drive themselves, I assume. If that is so, then how useful might this mod be? I mean if they have to be scripted, then how would they attack targets in the campaign mode? A ship would have to cross directly in front of their path in order for them to fire...

But besides that, I think that it is a good innovation. Good job sergbuto.

[iambecomelife]

Great work! :up:

Now we should probably try to find a way to spawn wolfpack attacks triggered by your convoy sightings. I think there's some stuff regarding triggers in the mission builder, but I'm not sure it can work in the campaign. Maybe we could spawn packs from "naval bases" positioned in the middle of the ocean near likely convoy routes, although this would still be leaving a lot up to chance...

[gdogghenrikson]

hope it isnt too hard to install because that sounds ********N sweet

[Kalach]

Isn't the 'send contact report' meant to send friendly planes/destroyers to help you attack something? If it actually does work, then I'm sure it could be changed to call in u-boats :)

[FAdmiral]

Good work serbguto.... At least now we will have something
of a wolfpack to help us sink enemy ships. BTW, that small
orange circle with arrow on water surface that tells where
your sub is. It seems to be missing from my campaign and I
would like to have it back. Would make my job much easier
to locate my sub without having to dive down & check it...


JIM

[Axlwolf]

Very good mod Sergbuto,i'm actually doing "evaluation test" about submarine survivability
The AI boat has taken 2 G7es torpedo in the engine room that stopped her,but is not sinking.
Actually seems a bit normal because a player U-Boat can withstand AT LEAST two torpedoes(Tryed myself with FAT)
But i never came out of that without SEVERE flooding.It seems those new boat are much more strong.
Now,excuse me,my WE called me...the last tube is ready :arrgh!:

Keep up the good work Sergbuto!

EDIT:
She needed another two torpedo to sink.I have to try with several torpedo hit in more than one compartment.
:-?
EDIT 2:
Three hit from AOB 90 killed her
:D

[stljeffbb1]

Bravo sergbuto.....I look forward to using this!

:up:

-Jeff

[sergbuto]

But the subs don't drive themselves, I assume. If that is so, then how useful might this mod be? I mean if they have to be scripted, then how would they attack targets in the campaign mode? A ship would have to cross directly in front of their path in order for them to fire...

It will be as useful as other new units. Every ship in the campaign needs to be scripted in (except maybe for DDs spawned on alert) including convoys. The wolfpack subs can be scripted in ambush on a patrol route constantly crossing a convoy route and the player can be called via radio to joint the wolfpack.

The AI subs are subject to the collision avoidance routine. When they get inside the convoy, they may sink most of it while trying to avoid any collision because the subs start to turn quite early.

[sergbuto]

Very good mod Sergbuto,i'm actually doing "evaluation test" about submarine survivability
The AI boat has taken 2 G7es torpedo in the engine room that stopped her,but is not sinking.
Actually seems a bit normal because a player U-Boat can withstand AT LEAST two torpedoes(Tryed myself with FAT)
But i never came out of that without SEVERE flooding.It seems those new boat are much more strong.
Now,excuse me,my WE called me...the last tube is ready :arrgh!:

Keep up the good work Sergbuto!

EDIT:
She needed another two torpedo to sink.I have to try with several torpedo hit in more than one compartment.
:-?
EDIT 2:
Three hit from AOB 90 killed her
:D

AI subs can be made weaker but then DDs kill them too easily and the sub can't get through to the convoy. It is a compromise.

The subs sink slowly, but they will eventually sink. I do not think you need to use more torpedoes.

[Axlwolf]

Another thing
I dont receive tonnage for the sinking.Only on "Axis unit lost=1",but not the tonnage.

[Woof1701]

That's really great news. I can't wait for that to be included in RUB or the Ops Mod!! Absolutely thrilling. We now only have to see whether we have to boost up the escorts a little bit more, since now several escorts may attack a heavily screened convoy, and I often managed to enter the convoy alone though no wolfpack helped me with distracting the escorts :) So it's all about balance again, but I guess that can be tweaked with a little time. Now if someone found a way to kill the bugs in the milk cow mod, the game would be perfect :)

Thanks again!!! :rock: :rock:

[Woof1701]

Another thing
I dont receive tonnage for the sinking.Only on "Axis unit lost=1",but not the tonnage.

You're not supposed to sink your own wolfpack and receive tonnage for that :-j

[Axlwolf]

But if i sink the Bismarck or the commerce raider,the game give me credit for the tonnage

[Rubini]

Hi Sergei,
Hi guys:


I just finish 3 convoys with wolf pack to be merge with the HT mod. The Aiuboats (2 or 3) runs in a parallel course in both sides and just ahead of the convoy. The player receive a radio message calling (which are set at 50% ) for the wolfpack, 1 or 2 days before the action and at a probable specific time (to simulate a coordinate attack). So the player have time (the convoy is at slow speed) do join and in the correct time the Aiuboats makes a turn to intercept the convoy. It's all scripted and is awesome to receive the message, accompany the convoy/aiuboats and in the correct time start to look and participate of the hunting...Great, great!

I will release this stuff in a few days with the updated milk cow!

Rubini.

[sergbuto]

Should be exciting to play through. :up:

[Woof1701]

@Rubini
Thanks that's great news as well :) It's also good to hear that you're on the milk cow mod as well. I'm really looking foward to this. That's the best news in months on this game. :up: :rock: :up: :rock: :up:


@Sergbuto
Are the wolfpack AI uboats able to surface and submerge on attack or do they stay submerged all the time?

[Charlie901]

Sounds promising but IMHO this mod might need some additional work before I'd want it included in other mods, RUB/Ops/Improved Convoys/H.T..

I'm not trying to be harsh but:

Do the A.I. Subs continue to cruise w/ their periscope up (after being spotted) and allow themselves to get rammed/run over by enemy DD?

Do the A.I. subs exhibit Muzzle Flashes when firing their "Virtual Torpedos"?

Do the A.I. subs act "Uber" due to unlimited "gun" ammo (sinking many ships and scoring hits every few seconds)?

Do the A.I. subs' "Virtual Torpedos" impact the upper structure of ships, like when they get "deck" gunned (blowing off masts and cargo and such)?


I just think some of these things (if true) might distract a little from realism (arcade), in an attempt to provide us with much needed A.I. wolfpacks.

[sergbuto]

Are the wolfpack AI uboats able to surface and submerge on attack or do they stay submerged all the time?

As I said above, the AI sub can't change the depth, i.e. can't dive or surface.

[sergbuto]

Sounds promising but IMHO this mod might need some additional work before I'd want it included in other mods, RUB/Ops/Improved Convoys/H.T..

I'm not trying to be harsh but:

Do the A.I. Subs continue to cruise w/ their periscope up (after being spotted) and allow themselves to get rammed/run over by enemy DD?

Do the A.I. subs exhibit Muzzle Flashes when firing their "Virtual Torpedos"?

Do the A.I. subs act "Uber" due to unlimited "gun" ammo (sinking many ships and scoring hits every few seconds)?

Do the A.I. subs' "Virtual Torpedos" impact the upper structure of ships, like when they get "deck" gunned (blowing off masts and cargo and such)?


I just think some of these things (if true) might distract a little from realism (arcade), in an attempt to provide us with much needed A.I. wolfpacks.

1. Before asking questions or even making comments, it helps to read Readme and look at the example mission provided.
2. Naturally, it is a standard deal here: take it or leave it. Unless you want to do that additional work you are proposing which I have no idea about.

[Woof1701]

Are the wolfpack AI uboats able to surface and submerge on attack or do they stay submerged all the time?

As I said above, the AI sub can't change the depth, i.e. can't dive or surface.

Thanks. Sorry must've missed that.

[Hunterbear]

Hi Rubini,

Great news on incorporating wolfpack and new milkcow to your HT mod. Eagerly awaiting its release!

:up:

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi Rubini,

Any news about incorporating wolfpack to your HT mod?

Mikael

[Rubini]

Yes, in the next release, in a week.

Thanks,

Rubini.

[stljeffbb1]

Anybody try this one out yet?

Does it work well?

I haven't had the chance...I've been too wrapped up in trying to figure out 3D modeling....

:know:

-Jeff

[iambecomelife]

I've run the included mission twice. It worked well, although hopefully someone can eventually get the U-Boats to dive. All in all, it was great to finally have the feeling that you aren't fighting the war alone. The first time I ran it the subs were all sunk with no losses to the convoy other than one ship I torpedoed. The second time they were all sunk once again, but may have torpedoed a destroyer; I was too busy setting up my own attack to tell for sure.

[sergbuto]

Anybody try this one out yet?

Does it work well?

I haven't had the chance...I've been too wrapped up in trying to figure out 3D modeling....

:know:

-Jeff

Actually, it will work much better for people who do not use external view. With good scripting it can create effects during your attack approach on the convoy like escorts/DD suddenly turning and running somewhere, doing depthcharging runs on other sub. Often, wolfpack subs will not get through the escort screen but they will attract DDs attention. That is what was all about wolfpack operations. Or it may even create some confusion like you would think that it is your torpedoes hit the target while it would be other AI sub, etc.

[Col7777]

Well I've tried Serg's Wolfpacks, they do as he describes, they attract attention and take it away from the player sub from time to time.
I have just altered a mission using them and they did their job, yes they did all get destroyed but they also sank a few before they did.
Funny because one of them actually saved my skin, a DD was on it's way to hunt me down when it suddenly changed course, the reason... one of the wolfpack subs came in to range and it went off after it, they had a gun battle but the wolfpack sub managed to hit the DD a crucial blow before it too was destroyed, a few minutes later the DD keeled over.

Nice work Serg. :up:

[HEMISENT]

Same here. The wolfpack attacked as advertised and drew all the attention away from me until the very end. By then I was at least able to make my run in, fire my fish and begin my egress. Great mod. I wonder if the periscopes need to stay raised all the time, it seems to give the escorts a perfect aiming point. They were throwing everything at the scopes but the galley sink.

[gdogghenrikson]

so...Has anyone actually seen this wolfpack while playing campaign?

[Hitman]

@sergbuto:

In SH2 airbases were able to spawn submarines and other ships -not just aricraft-

In SH3 sending a radio message (contact report) when in range of an axis airbase might trigger an axis air attack with planes. Would it be possible to script airbases that spawn U-Boots in the midlle of the Atlantic? :hmm:

If that worked you would have wolfpacks on demand via radio message during the campaign...you could even set the wolfpacks in their historic locations, same as Sansal did with the milk cows. You could also script radio messages from BdU telling you where wolfpacks are operating, and asking any UBoot closeby to join them :)

[HEMISENT]

With all the incredibly talented modders working on this could real in-game wolfpacks be right around the corner?

Who needs a Dev team-we have our own. :up: :up: :up:

[sergbuto]

@sergbuto:

In SH2 airbases were able to spawn submarines and other ships -not just aricraft-

In SH3 sending a radio message (contact report) when in range of an axis airbase might trigger an axis air attack with planes. Would it be possible to script airbases that spawn U-Boots in the midlle of the Atlantic? :hmm:

If that worked you would have wolfpacks on demand via radio message during the campaign...you could even set the wolfpacks in their historic locations, same as Sansal did with the milk cows. You could also script radio messages from BdU telling you where wolfpacks are operating, and asking any UBoot closeby to join them :)

Yes, although I am not sure about spawning from airbases, scripting historic wolfpacks should be relatively easy. Either periodic entering with deleting at the last waypoint or looping.

[Hitman]

I have had a look at the ingame editor and airbases seems quite strange. I have not seen any group/units attached to them, but sure as hell somewhere in the game must be specified which planes do they spawn and in which number :hmm:

EDITED to add: Probably simply substituting the german planes with uboots in the airplane folder we would already have wolfpacks appear when sending radio contacts :up:

You are right about scripting historic wolfpacks in the campaign SCR, and because the convoy traffic is so random, they probably would not fight the same battles every time. It should be also possible to generate random wolfpacks moving around in the Atlantic. Although my initial intention was mainly to be able to summon a wolfpack via radio messages, this should probably work too.

Do friendly units provide contact reports when they meet an enemy convoy? I think not....pity

In any case, it is sad that UBI did not provide UBoot AI...this would solve all problems. I bet this shouldn't be that difficult to program for someone with the code :88)

[Col7777]

Part way down this thread there is a way to show the player sub plus other ship icons on the map, I did a screen-shot to explain plus a screen-shot on the last post to show how the icons appear.

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=43134

This isn't quite what you want here but it may be on the right track,
I asked on the mission section how to get spawns to appear, I have a feeling it is there but it needs a bit of experimenting to hit on the right sequence etc.

[sergbuto]

I have had a look at the ingame editor and airbases seems quite strange. I have not seen any group/units attached to them, but sure as hell somewhere in the game must be specified which planes do they spawn and in which number :hmm:

Look in CFG files of Airbases (e.g. LAB_LargeAirBaseCa.cfg) in the data\Land folder. They are all in there.

[Hitman]

Well I have found them (Thanks for the hint) and yes they seem scripted in amanner that *could* possibly spawn U-Boots with some changes. I muts however do first the hard work of deleting my current, high modified install of SH3 and make a clean one, then create a BLANK campaign file to avoid interferences of other units, and then script a mission with a german airbase set to spawn U-Boots....

If I can have time for all this (Smething difficult these days for me), I'll report :up:

[sergbuto]

I hope you'll succeed.

[Col7777]

I've managed to spawn a wolfpack using the editor, I am not quite sure yet what I did properly but the pack did appear and fired on the enemy and did a good job too I might add, well done Serg.
I am still testing as yet as I think I may be able to make it better.

[sergbuto]

That's a good news. :up:

[FAdmiral]

YES, it is !! We may in fact be able to get wolfpacks in our
campaigns yet even though they will be somewhat abstracted...


JIM

[Col7777]

Cheers,

I just played the same mission again, the first time Serg's AI subs appeared but stayed still, they did engage the enemy though.
This time I added waypoints to the group, they appeared after an hour on play, they were moving and engaged the enemy and did real good.
They destroyed a few ships but eventually all got killed, then the DD's started looking for me, but then I didn't believe it, just in time another batch of AI subs appeared, the DD's eventually left me and went after them till again they all got destroyed.
I managed to evade the DD's that were left but then I noticed on the map another batch spawned, but by then I was too far away to see them on the camera, I then exited the sim.


I know I ticked a box for them to spawn every hour, this was the least it let me do, I thought that was OK but the problem is they keep spawning by the looks of it.
If you ticked 2 hours or more then the battle might be over before you get any help that is the problem.

But I don't deserve any credit for this it is in the Mission Editor plus Serg made the AI subs, I need to upload it somewhere then someone else might be able to do a better job of it.

Edited:

Forgot to add, I never noticed it before but Serg's AI subs fire the AA guns too, I missed that for some reason.
Also I took a screenshot of a DD ramming an AI sub, they were both destroyed, I re-booted my PC then remembered, Damn! No picture. :damn:

[R1fl3M4n]

cool :)

[TigerKatziTatzi]

Hi serg,

I do have a prob with the VIIa. They don't attack ships, even not with the single mission which comes with the wolfpack_mod release. Works fine with the VIIC/41 on surface but not with dived VIIa. Any Idea for me what I may did wrong.

Install was made direct copy into sh3 folder. No JSGME or SH3Commander in use here.



Greetz TKT

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi,
I have the same problem. I use wolfpack mod integreted in my campagn scr. but the never attack ships. However, DD attacking the subs.

Mikael

[sergbuto]

It seems the problem is in the guns.sim file included in the download. When I did testing of the mod I made a mistake and did not delete original guns.sim from the Library folder. It was there along with the changed one for the mod. This probably fooled me during testing.

Try this revised guns.sim.
http://rapidshare.de/files/18803142/wolfpack_sim_file.rar.html

If it still does not work, you can always replace UboatVirtualTorpedo in sub's EQP file with PTVirtualTorpedo which is used for PT boats.

It is important to remember that U-boats will attack only when the ship is in front of them within a norrow angle. And they may not attck if the distance to the ship is larger than 4000 m.

Tell me if it works out for you.

For general use, it also helps to give wolfpack subs wayponits so that they will zig-zag while in attack run.

I have been planning to come back to this mod with the new knowledge about SH3 engine and new ideas to try out.

[TigerKatziTatzi]

Thx for hosting, works perfect.


Greetz TKT

[mikaelanderlund]

It seems the problem is in the guns.sim file included in the download. When I did testing of the mod I made a mistake and did not delete original guns.sim from the Library folder. It was there along with the changed one for the mod. This probably fooled me during testing.

Try this revised guns.sim.
http://rapidshare.de/files/18803142/wolfpack_sim_file.rar.html

If it still does not work, you can always replace UboatVirtualTorpedo in sub's EQP file with PTVirtualTorpedo which is used for PT boats.

It is important to remember that U-boats will attack only when the ship is in front of them within a norrow angle. And they may not attck if the distance to the ship is larger than 4000 m.

Tell me if it works out for you.

For general use, it also helps to give wolfpack subs wayponits so that they will zig-zag while in attack run.

I have been planning to come back to this mod with the new knowledge about SH3 engine and new ideas to try out.

Hi sergbuto,

I am using GW 1.1. Do you think your updated guns.sim works well with GW 1.1? Thanks for your cool mod!

Mikael

[sergbuto]

I do not remember whether GW uses stock or modified guns.sim. If the former, you can just replace it with guns.sim for the Wolfpack mod. Otherwise, you have some options.

As it is now, the only change in the current guns.sim left is the limitation on the firing range (4000 m). If you do not care about that you can use guns.sim from GW but you need to use guns.dat from the Wolfpack mod. Or you can change the firing range setting in the GW's guns.sim by using the timetraveller's tools.

[TigerKatziTatzi]

Hi Serg,

one more QS. Do you think its possible to do a combine of the VIIc/41 and VIIa in the way the new Sub would be able to run first surface and do then a dive on periscope depth, based on waypoints settings ?

To give u an idea what i'm up to ...........

http://www.aandc.org/research/convoy_tm1.html

i'm using this convoi currently for our next update as test for our part 3 of LSH3, which will has as main story the big convoy war with wolfpacks from 1942 - 1943. currently i'm using both types of ur subs for it ( first stage surface for getting into patrol area, second stage dived for attack run).


greetz TKT

[sergbuto]

Unfortunately, AI -subs are not able to dive or surface. But I think it might be possible to delete surfaced subs at the defined waypoint and spawn submerged instead. Although, I do not know whether it is possible to appropriately time these events since I do not have much experience in scripting.

[TigerKatziTatzi]

thx for answering. so i'll do as i setup it yet.

[panthercules]

I was about to start a topic about "virtual"wolfpacks when I saw that this thread had been resurrected. It sounds like a lot of progress was made on this idea, but I assume it never got finished/implemented yet?

Even if it doesn't work "perfectly" yet, is there any chance of getting at least some aspects of this idea implemented in any of the big mods like GW or NYGM-TW? What I was thinking about before I saw this thread was that even if we can't have actual wolfpacks with visible AI subs that behave "properly" in attacking convoys, maybe we could just have some sort of randomized occurrences of torpedoes (or hidden big guns that act like virtual torpedoes, or just random explosions) that would have a chance of happening to convoys from time to time. That way, there would at least be a small chance that when we intercept a convoy we might see explosions in various parts of the convoy actually occurring while we were in the process of attacking (as if we were in the midst of a wolfpack attack), and there would be a somewhat larger chance that we would at least see one or two damaged/listing/smoking ships limping along in the convoy or straggling behind, sort of like the after-effects of a previous wolf-pack attack that would have happened before we got there.

Since you wouldn't really have to worry about actually seeing these phantom/virtual AI subs or whether they actually behave "properly", it seems like it might be easier to accomplish the circumstantial evidence of these sorts of virtual attacks than it seems to be to achieve fully correct behavior of the AI subs (although it would be cool if they could act "real" enough to draw off one or two of the escorts into attacking them so as to create gaps in the screen, in case you happened to come across the convoy while one of these virtual attacks was actually occurring).

What do you think - any chance of making this concept work and getting it added to one of the major mod packages?

[TigerKatziTatzi]

I was about to start a topic about "virtual"wolfpacks when I saw that this thread had been resurrected. It sounds like a lot of progress was made on this idea, but I assume it never got finished/implemented yet?

Even if it doesn't work "perfectly" yet, is there any chance of getting at least some aspects of this idea implemented in any of the big mods like GW or NYGM-TW? What I was thinking about before I saw this thread was that even if we can't have actual wolfpacks with visible AI subs that behave "properly" in attacking convoys, maybe we could just have some sort of randomized occurrences of torpedoes (or hidden big guns that act like virtual torpedoes, or just random explosions) that would have a chance of happening to convoys from time to time. That way, there would at least be a small chance that when we intercept a convoy we might see explosions in various parts of the convoy actually occurring while we were in the process of attacking (as if we were in the midst of a wolfpack attack), and there would be a somewhat larger chance that we would at least see one or two damaged/listing/smoking ships limping along in the convoy or straggling behind, sort of like the after-effects of a previous wolf-pack attack that would have happened before we got there.

Since you wouldn't really have to worry about actually seeing these phantom/virtual AI subs or whether they actually behave "properly", it seems like it might be easier to accomplish the circumstantial evidence of these sorts of virtual attacks than it seems to be to achieve fully correct behavior of the AI subs (although it would be cool if they could act "real" enough to draw off one or two of the escorts into attacking them so as to create gaps in the screen, in case you happened to come across the convoy while one of these virtual attacks was actually occurring).

What do you think - any chance of making this concept work and getting it added to one of the major mod packages?


You can use the package as it is with the new hosted guns.sim . in average and depending of cargo of a ship the ai-sub needs 1-3 hits against a ship to sink it. depending on bearing ( main direction target ahead ) to the convoy its attacking the first ship in a range of 4000m. So the main work for you as modder is the sync on ai and convoy route by waypoints. to give u an example. i posted a link about the convoy TM.1 attacked by 6 subs 1943. the route of convoi and wolfpack ( including player unit) has been setup. when the wolfpack 'Delphin' group was ordered to a new Patrol line, I used an order for the player to patrol on on the northern end of this line. Rest of AI-subs is setup with waypoints along the 120km line to the south and the AI-Uboot U381 in the mid of this line. this gives u a distance betwqeen player location and the boat which made the first cotnact to the convoi of ~ 40km . when the Player receive now the radiomsg. of U381 when it makes contact and the players sail southwards to the point of contact 4 Ai boats allready in an attack with the convoy and his escort.
The only prob is to coordinate this attack in this way there are some ships left when the player arrive in the combat area. :)


hope this helps a bit about creating those wolfpack attacks in pretty close real way.



greetz TKT

[sergbuto]

panthercules,

What do you mean by virtual subs? Wolfpack subs are quite real (3D rendered), following waypoints at the periscope depth and attacking allied shipping. When Allied escort/DDs or airplanes will detect and attack these subs with ASW. You can watch this in external view, if you like.

[sergbuto]

You can use the package as it is with the new hosted guns.sim . in average and depending of cargo of a ship the ai-sub needs 1-3 hits against a ship to sink it. depending on bearing ( main direction target ahead ) to the convoy its attacking the first ship in a range of 4000m.

It should be possible to set this range to other value if necessary.

I believe Col7777 has a few ideas about spawing wolpack subs and making better use of them. But one needs to wait for working forum search function to locate those threads.

[panthercules]

panthercules,

What do you mean by virtual subs? Wolfpack subs are quite real (3D rendered), following waypoints at the periscope depth and attacking allied shipping. When Allied escort/DDs or airplanes will detect and attack these subs with ASW. You can watch this in external view, if you like.

Awesome - I didn't read all the pages of this thread and didn't realize that you had actually made that much progress. That's way more elaborate than I had hoped for - from the perspective I started with, I was just hoping to be able to see the effects - i.e., some explosions and some damaged ships that I could assume must have been caused by other u-boats. For that purpose, it wouldn't really matter to me if there were actually working AI subs or not. I haven't read any u-boat books lately and can't remember the details of the ones I read many years ago, but from my in-game experiences and recollections of those books I figured it would be pretty unlikely for a u-boat captain to actually see or communicate with any of the other u-boats during the actual attacks, so from my personal immersion standpoint I figured just hearing/seeing an occasional torpedo-like explosion somewhere in the convoy while I was making my approach or attack, or just occasionally seeing some damaged/burning/sinking ships in convoys as if they had recently been attacked by some other u-boat, would allow me to imagine that I was not alone out there.

Of course, if there actually would be working AI boats in the process, so much the better.

Unfortunately though, I have no experience/knowledge/talent for actually scripting any of this stuff into the game's files, so I was hoping that someone who knows how to do this would manage to work this sort of activity into the campaigns used for GW (my current mod pkg) or maybe NYGM-TW (the one I was using before GW came out) so that it would be accessible to the masses :)

[Stiebler]

Unfortunately, even if Sergbuto can improve further on his AI U-boats to make them behave perfectly, there is a practical problem with their use in wolf-packs.

The campaign files require the paths of the AI U-boats to be marked in them somehow. You can add them to the campaign_RND.mis file, when they will be fired off randomly onto a prescribed course, or you can add them to the campaign_SCR.mis file, in which case they will always follow a prescribed course. (Or you can have both types.) In all cases, although you can alter the time of appearance and disappearance of the AI U-boats, they must follow that prescribed course. The AI U-boats cannot be made to follow the player's U-boat, nor to appear on demand close to the player's U-boat.

Therefore the AI U-boats must be made to operate together (a wolf-pack), or singly, along fixed courses, which obviously must be placed somewhere along a convoy's course (that can be found in mission editor).

This means that the player must *always* return to these fixed patrol areas, if the wolf-pack is to function as part of the attack on the convoy.

Worse, if the player is somewhere remote from the wolf-pack, they will still be trying to sink every convoy that passes them. Your frame rate is going to keep suddenly dropping wherever you are, while the convoy battle is fought out hundreds of kilometers away!

That is why wolf-packs have not been added to NYGM. They may well be great for single missions (I haven't tried), but not for campaigns. This situation might change if anyone can discover how to make the player's sub and the AI U-boats all part of one moving German 'convoy', steered by the player.

Stiebler.

[sergbuto]

Unfortunately though, I have no experience/knowledge/talent for actually scripting any of this stuff into the game's files, so I was hoping that someone who knows how to do this would manage to work this sort of activity into the campaigns used for GW (my current mod pkg) or maybe NYGM-TW (the one I was using before GW came out) so that it would be accessible to the masses :)

Wolfpacks and AI-subs operations are accessible to the masses in the U-boat War Ace mod-campaign.

[GlobalExplorer]

Hm, I'm wondering to to what extent Sh3Gen could be used with this mod. If there are enough scripted subs in the campaign layer, Sh3Gen sould (theoretically) create radio traffic with other Uboats sinking or reporting real targets (i.e targets from the campaign layer).

There are some problems though with the necessary spatial operations (very time consuming and a bit over my head at the moment), and the fact that the low values for SpawnProbability would make the Sh3Gen reports too unreliable, at least if it comes from the RND Layer.

But I think I have to follow development for this mod because it might be the missing part for Sh3Gen to provide a dynamic campaign environment. Well, not really dynamic of course, but you know what mean.

Are the subs scripted in the RND or SCR layer? SCR would be much better for the kind of things I am doing with Sh3Gen.

GE

[sergbuto]

The AI U-boats cannot be made to follow the player's U-boat, nor to appear on demand close to the player's U-boat.

This situation might change if anyone can discover how to make the player's sub and the AI U-boats all part of one moving German 'convoy', steered by the player.

Wolfpacks were not steered by some U-boat but BdU. Forcing this role on a player would not be that realistic. Instead, the player should be ordered to reach a certain point to take part in wolfpack operations or follow the presribed route.

Worse, if the player is somewhere remote from the wolf-pack, they will still be trying to sink every convoy that passes them. Your frame rate is going to keep suddenly dropping wherever you are, while the convoy battle is fought out hundreds of kilometers away!

My understanding is that ships are not even 3D-rendered hundrids of kilometers away from the player. Therefore, strong dropping in frame rate is doubtful (although I have not tested that).

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi,

I am using the wolfpack mod very often in my campaign and it works well! I have not seen any dropp in the fram rate. The subs I am using are VIIa and VII 41/C and they are scripted in the scr. layer. However, you need to know the konvoys routes to know were to put your pack and you need to get rid of the random waypoint radius (rnd. layer) inte the area you want to put your pack.

Mikael

[GlobalExplorer]

My vote is that this should be included in the major mods. Just imagine:

- surfacing in a convoy at night and seeing burning ships
- escorts distracted because they are chasing after another boat
- finishing off stragglers
- hearing the sound of depthcharges through the hydrophones ("Die beharken gerade einen von uns.").

Though it might be hard to coordinate sub and convoys waypoints, and while we might not get to see the results very often, it is still possible, and it would improve the athmosphere tremendously.

And as I said in my previous post, secondary mod ideas might come up that add even more to the game. For instance, external apps like Sh3Gen could inform about UBoat concentrations and approximate position at the time of the patrol. Technically it is even possible to generate living radio traffic. I might have a go at these features if someone would script enough subs into the campign, and if the wolfpack mod was included in the unified campaigns.

Btw, why is U-Boat Ace campaign getting so little attention? Is it because it is heavily scripted, and most guys here are pretty much "dynamic" ;)

[panthercules]

My vote is that this should be included in the major mods. Just imagine:

- surfacing in a convoy at night and seeing burning ships
- escorts distracted because they are chasing after another boat
- finishing off stragglers
- hearing the sound of depthcharges through the hydrophones ("Die beharken gerade einen von uns.").

Though it might be hard to coordinate sub and convoys waypoints, and while we might not get to see the results very often, it is still possible, and it would improve the athmosphere tremendously.

EXACTLY! This is just the effect I was hoping for, and not that it would happen very often - just that there would be a chance of stumbling onto such a situation.



Btw, why is U-Boat Ace campaign getting so little attention? Is it because it is heavily scripted, and most guys here are pretty much "dynamic" ;)

Good question - I seem to remember at least seeing and maybe even trying out something called U-Boat War Ace several months ago (apparently I downloaded it last October), but I can't remember why it dropped off my radar screen and I don't remember seeing much about it since then whereas I'm always seeing stuff about RUB/IUB/NYGM/GW. If it is a "scripted vs dynamic" sort of thing, I guess I could understand it, but it seems a shame you can't have some sort of combination of approaches - I like the generally "dynamic"/random nature of things better than tightly scripted stuff with specific events that always happen in exactly the same way, but on the other hand I think it's cool if there's at least some sort of connection to historical events (e.g., appropriately more traffic around Norway in April 1940, near the Channel in May-June 1940, in the Med in 1941/42, etc.), though I suspect that this type of thing has to be somewhat scripted to work.

If there were a really good way to have actual, working wolfpacks with "real" working AI U-boats that the player could interact with, that would be cool - but frankly I'd be happy to settle (at least for now) with just some randomized way of making the things listed above happen inside the major mod packages like GW or NYGM-TW without the player actually knowing anything about it or having anything to do with it - just like an extension of the various radio messages that currently don't really "mean" anything but still add to the immersive feeling of the game.

[sergbuto]

Btw, why is U-Boat Ace campaign getting so little attention? Is it because it is heavily scripted, and most guys here are pretty much "dynamic" ;)

U-boat War Ace mod-campaign is used by most of the Russian SH3 Community and by part of the German SH3 Community.

As to dynamic, RND layers in other big mods are not really more "dynamic" compared to the stock version. Because those RND layers are based on the Improved convoys mod which did heavy scripting on convoys, reducing the random factor in order to fit historic findings. In addition, the coastal traffic of the RND layer which is the most random part of the campaign was set to zero in some cases.

[sergbuto]

For instance, external apps like Sh3Gen could inform about UBoat concentrations and approximate position at the time of the patrol.

Yes, wolpacks-including campaigns should greatly benefit from the use of such external programmes as SH3Gen.

[panthercules]

Sergbuto - seeing this thread resurrected has tempted me to try this U-boat War Ace mod again. I went to your page, found the link to the latest version of the mod and I downloaded it.

Just one point of confusion (so far) - your site says that this mod "takes advantage of most of my mods available for download below" - however, I'm not clear on the proper install process. Will things work properly if I install all 13 of your mods on your site (or however many are atually there - I just noticed that some of them have no download links so I guess they're not finished yet?), along with the actual U-boat War Ace mod, or does the U-boat War Ace mod already include some or all of your site's mods?

Are there any of the mods on your site that duplicate any of the others or anything in the U-boat War Ace mod so that I wouldn't need/want to install all of your site's mods? Assuming that I should install some or all of your site's mods, is there any particular order in which they or the U-boat War Ace mod itself should be installed?

Thanks for all the great work :up:

edit: also, are there any known issues/problems running the game with UWA and your site's mods via SH3 Commander?

[sergbuto]

First of all, I am not the author of the U-boat War Ace mod-campaign therefore it may be diificult for me to answer your questions.

You should be aware that there are two versions/lines for this mod-campaign. The original one made by Travinski and the one re-worked by Hansolo78. When Hansolo78 made his additions to the U-boat War Ace campaign, he tried to contact Travinsky but unfortunately Travinski was not reachable at that time and Hansolo went on with additions. However, very recently Travinski came up with the new version of his original campaign and asked me to make it available for download on my site. For the latter you first need to install my mods

Additional merchants v2.0
Southampton
AI_Uboats v2.0
Wolfpack mod

prior to U-boat War Ace installation. Some of my other mods are already in the UWA install. After that if you like it is possible to add some options from the RUB mod-compilation from here http://forum.sukhoi.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=54684&d=1145638870

On the other, Hansolo78's version is stand-alone version which already includes all the required files in the download.

As to SH3 Commander, I am not able to answer since I have not used it.

[panthercules]

Thanks for the info - looks like I'll need to give this separate install approach a try after all. I tried to take a shortcut and just load the UWA version 1.6 overlay Boris posted on top of my existing GW 1.0, but it just gave me CTDs when I tried that, so I guess I'll load this one up in a separate install and see if that will work. Unfortunately, with all the tweaks I'll need to redo to get things the way I like them, it will probably be a few days until I can make all the changes and give it a spin. I hate to give up the ship damage tweaking that NYGM/GW seem to have done though - I've really been liking what that has done for my ship sinking experiences.

[sergbuto]

As I understand the NYGM damage model is based on modified ZON files. I guess there should not be a big problem to just install this mod on top of UWA. But better ask authors of the NYGM damage model.

[Hilis Hatki]

Nice mod. :D
Iam running the updated Travinski U-boat War Ace. I installed the stand alone version and the frame rate crawled and then it CTD. SO much habor traffic i guess, :( Id like to have the historical sea traffic it comes with. Trying to get info on how to mod this stuff so as to combine different aspects in to one.

[sergbuto]

There has been a development. Now, it really looks and feels like PT boats and wolfpack subs are using electric torpedoes. The only thing one would not see is the animation of the actual torpedo launching.

Below are a few pics of the attack by Italian MS boats on an Allied convoy. Look at the explosions when they score hits at the ship.

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/PTboat_attack01.jpg

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/PTboat_attack02.jpg

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/PTboat_attack03.jpg

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/PTboat_attack04.jpg

[Rubini]

Awesome Sergei!:rock:

Two questions:
1.When you will release?
2.Where we can download this Italian MSboat?



Big thanks!

Rubini.

[bigboywooly]

Woohoo well done Serg
Does your new Vosper "fire" torps as well

[mikaelanderlund]

Enastående:up: . Jag har alltid använt din wolfpack mod i mitt spel och denna förbättring är pricken över i'et.

Mikael

[rbapon]

Wow! Looks like the dream of wolfpacks is getting closer to reality!

[sergbuto]

Awesome Sergei!:rock:

Two questions:
1.When you will release?
2.Where we can download this Italian MSboat?



Big thanks!

Rubini.

These findings are quite recent. I need some time to optimise that. Also I would like to minimize ovelap with files commonly modified in other mods. This should make it more flexible for future modifications.

The Italian MS boat model has currently around 27000 polys. That is why I never released it. Although my computer handles alright the attack of ten of those boats, I still think it is too high polycount. I have produced a version with 7500 polys but it needs UV-mapping.

As to Vosper, it will be certainly armed with such electric torpedoes. It becomes more effective compared to the first version of the mod and quite deadly now. In my U-boat while engaged on the surface I have no signs at all when torpedoes are fired against me (that's how it was with electric torpedoes) and die instantly after one hit.

[Safe-Keeper]

The things you modders accomplish:o.

When are these torpedoes going to be implemented into the Grey Wolves mod:p?

[VonHelsching]

Interesting development. Havn´t seen anything yet, but it feels like it´s going to be something special...

[CB..]

My understanding is that ships are not even 3D-rendered hundrids of kilometers away from the player. Therefore, strong dropping in frame rate is doubtful (although I have not tested that).:up:
i have tested it Serg':yep:
works exactly as you described...NO combat of any kind (AFAIK) is modelled out side of the 3d loading range..so even adding your wolfpack subs to the convoys themselves (a quick and easy method of getting wolfpack involvement) does not result in any combat between the subs and the convoy/excorts UNTILL you are within range of the convoy...
no frame rate drops or any issues what so ever...the wolfpack subs load as part of the convoy and begin attacking as and when you get within the normal loading range for full 3D depiction and AI computation...out side of that the game just treats all shipping as dots on a map (or what ever the equivilent computer game reasoning would be for such things)

i just added you subs to the list of ships in most convoys like thus

[RndGroup 61.RndUnit 18]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=50
CrewRating=4


tested now over a long period of time and absolutely no issues at all..:ping:

[sergbuto]

Being part of wolfpack. :D

Salvo of two torpedoes from AI sub hits a merchant

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/Wolfpack05.jpg


Another hit by another sub

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/Wolfpack06.jpg


Sinking

http://usx218.fysik.uu.se/users/Sergei/files/Wolfpack07.jpg

[sergbuto]

Yes, CB. Your and Col's ideas are the best way to use wolfpacks. :up:

[bigboywooly]

You rock Serg :rock:

[Lupo]

wolfpacks rock!!!!!:rock: cool!

mfg lupo!

[sandbag69]

Hi Serg

Do the virtual topredoes travel at the same speed as electric torpedoes or the same speed as high velocity shells?

[Pants]

Looking good :up:

[CB..]

Yes, CB. Your and Col's ideas are the best way to use wolfpacks. :up:
cheers serg' all this looks good stuff. what have you done here to get the torp explosions etc?

i was thinking a little about the subs incapacity to dive etc...and wondered if the AI subs responded in the same manner as the player subs to NYGM humming bird set up?..if so perhaps with some experimentation with rudder drag and so on the speed at which an AI sub could maintain depth could be set so once they go into evasive maneuvers, the extra drag from the use of their rudders might slow the subs down below that speed and the sub would sink..only surfacing again when it had stopped evading..unlikely to work on the AI subs for 101 reasons no doubt but you never know....

that would provide the final detail for the concept..

[VonHelsching]

Being part of wolfpack. :D

Salvo of two torpedoes from AI sub hits a merchant

Salvos? :o This is getting more interesting.

The wolfpack torpedoes are special shells "dressed" as torpedos, with torpedo-like effects (ie a double large carliber gun inside the sub) or real torpedoes?

[bigboywooly]

At VonHelsching

[quote=sergbuto]Readme

I succeeded to make a German sub which moves at the periscope depth and attacks Allied shipping with "virtual" torpedoes. The "virtual" torpedoes are invisible 14-inch guns. Unfortunately, I could not get rid of the flash/smoke/traces when guns are firing but it is not really noticable or understandable what is going on, especially when DDs/escorts are attacking submerged AI subs.Since it was not pissible to limit the ammo amount, the gun rotation/elevation is greatly limited and the sub can fire only directly ahead. [quote]

Not sure if Serg has changed anything since he has looked at them again but I believe its the same

[sergbuto]

Hi Serg

Do the virtual topredoes travel at the same speed as electric torpedoes or the same speed as high velocity shells?

It is the latter. If I reduce the speed to say 45 knots the AI subs stop attacking. However, since there is no accompanied flash or firing sound it is impossible identify the actual moment when torpedoes were fired.

[sergbuto]

cheers serg' all this looks good stuff. what have you done here to get the torp explosions etc?
I have linked the shell hit event to the effects used for torpedoes in the game.


i was thinking a little about the subs incapacity to dive etc...and wondered if the AI subs responded in the same manner as the player subs to NYGM humming bird set up?..if so perhaps with some experimentation with rudder drag and so on the speed at which an AI sub could maintain depth could be set so once they go into evasive maneuvers, the extra drag from the use of their rudders might slow the subs down below that speed and the sub would sink..only surfacing again when it had stopped evading..unlikely to work on the AI subs for 101 reasons no doubt but you never know....

that would provide the final detail for the concept..
It is very good idea. I did not think of that.

[sergbuto]

Salvos? :o This is getting more interesting.

The wolfpack torpedoes are special shells "dressed" as torpedos, with torpedo-like effects (ie a double large carliber gun inside the sub) or real torpedoes?

Actually, it is possible to use real torpedoes for AI subs by f.e. specifying in EQP something like this

[Equipment 5]
NodeName=A01
LinkName=SH_Torpedo_G7e_TII
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19401231

However, torpedoes get released immedieately after loading a mission. Also AI is not able to aim torpedoes.

Therefore, concerning your question, it is still the former.

[sergbuto]

At VonHelsching

Readme

I succeeded to make a German sub which moves at the periscope depth and attacks Allied shipping with "virtual" torpedoes. The "virtual" torpedoes are invisible 14-inch guns. Unfortunately, I could not get rid of the flash/smoke/traces when guns are firing but it is not really noticable or understandable what is going on, especially when DDs/escorts are attacking submerged AI subs.Since it was not pissible to limit the ammo amount, the gun rotation/elevation is greatly limited and the sub can fire only directly ahead.

Not sure if Serg has changed anything since he has looked at them again but I believe its the same

It is still the same principle. But now there are no gun flash and firing sound, no shell trace or splash upon hitting the water surface. There are the same damaging properties and caliber as real torpedoes have and subs get realistic amount of torpedoes. It is impossible to identify the moment when torpedoes have been fired. Now in terms of look, feel and immersion, the only difference from the situation with real electric torpedoes is that you can't hear torpedoes with hydrophone. But when attacking a convoy it is anyhow difficult to identify torpedoes in the water because of quite a few ships around.

[CB..]

Salvos? :o This is getting more interesting.

The wolfpack torpedoes are special shells "dressed" as torpedos, with torpedo-like effects (ie a double large carliber gun inside the sub) or real torpedoes?

Actually, it is possible to use real torpedoes for AI subs by f.e. specifying in EQP something like this

[Equipment 5]
NodeName=A01
LinkName=SH_Torpedo_G7e_TII
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19401231

However, torpedoes get released immedieately after loading a mission. Also AI is not able to aim torpedoes.

Therefore, concerning your question, it is still the former.


Cheers again Serg!!
i wonder if this is also affected by the 3D loading range....and there fore might be usable under certain cirumstances by virtue of the fact that the torps would only be launched once the player is withint range of the Ai subs?....if the torps are launched straight ahead in front of the sub..then placing them at 90 degress to the shipping positioned as escorts might allow for instant torp launches with varying results BEFORE the escorts get chance to attack and force the subs to evade....adding an alternative method of acheiving the same results as the excellent method you have developed..this might prove use-full for some situations..especailly if the torps were modded to increase the range or even FATs were used...perhaps by enemy subs against the player...this would create some interesting moments perhaps for the player?

keep up the good stuff Serg':yep: :up:

[VonHelsching]

Salvos? :o This is getting more interesting.

The wolfpack torpedoes are special shells "dressed" as torpedos, with torpedo-like effects (ie a double large carliber gun inside the sub) or real torpedoes?
Actually, it is possible to use real torpedoes for AI subs by f.e. specifying in EQP something like this

[Equipment 5]
NodeName=A01
LinkName=SH_Torpedo_G7e_TII
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19401231

However, torpedoes get released immedieately after loading a mission. Also AI is not able to aim torpedoes.

Therefore, concerning your question, it is still the former.


Thanks. I guess now it even better than the first wolfpack mod version (and the PT boats too, if the same principle is applied). I mostly enjoyed the single mission of your PT boat mod.:D

Regarding CB..s idea about the rudder and the depth variability of the AI subs this can be relatively easy be checked if you know your way in the .sim files. Great idea. Having made several relevant tests for the Deck Gun Removal Mod, I can understand that, we might get some interesting behavior from the AI Sub (with the caveat that the same things that can be applied in a human controllable sub, can be ported to an AI sub).

I am sure we'll be having relevant developments. When I have time, I might take a look too.

Von

[sergbuto]

i wonder if this is also affected by the 3D loading range....and there fore might be usable under certain cirumstances by virtue of the fact that the torps would only be launched once the player is withint range of the Ai subs?....
Yes, it could be so. Needs some testing.

if the torps are launched straight ahead in front of the sub..then placing them at 90 degress to the shipping positioned as escorts might allow for instant torp launches...
I do not remember the results of my tests (were done quite a while ago) but I think that the direction of the torpedo launch is defined by the orientation of the corresponding node in the 3D model. In the above example it would be the orientation of the A01 node. Thereby, one can have a number of nodes oriented differently to have launches in the desired direction with respect to the sub position.

...with varying results BEFORE the escorts get chance to attack and force the subs to evade....

Unfortunately, AI subs do not evade. The only thing which makes them change a direction from that defined by waypoints is the collision avoidance routine.

[CB..]

i wonder if this is also affected by the 3D loading range....and there fore might be usable under certain cirumstances by virtue of the fact that the torps would only be launched once the player is withint range of the Ai subs?....
Yes, it could be so. Needs some testing.

if the torps are launched straight ahead in front of the sub..then placing them at 90 degress to the shipping positioned as escorts might allow for instant torp launches...
I do not remember the results of my tests (were done quite a while ago) but I think that the direction of the torpedo launch is defined by the orientation of the corresponding node in the 3D model. In the above example it would be the orientation of the A01 node. Thereby, one can have a number of nodes oriented differently to have launches in the desired direction with respect to the sub position.

...with varying results BEFORE the escorts get chance to attack and force the subs to evade....

Unfortunately, AI subs do not evade. The only thing which makes them change a direction from that defined by waypoints is the collision avoidance routine.


sounds intrigueing Serg'

on the evade thing...they do start to zig zag when they have detected an enemy..which is close enough for jazz as they say..i dunno if you have found this at all?
if not extend your AI modifications for the subs by editing the sim files to read at the start listing the AI instructions/

to list in order

CMDR_AISHIP
CMDR_AIFIGHT
CMDR_AIFIGHT
CMDR_AIUNIT

then the subs start zigg zagging in the same way as the escorts do when an enemy is detected.

appolgies if you have this sussed allready..
it's not exactly full evasion but it's at least effective against torp attacks and involves the use of the rudder (hence allowing for the rudder drag idea to work and rapid variation in course and speed):up:

[GlobalExplorer]

Excellent work Sergbuto. I am hopeful now that I am going to see real convoy battles some day.

I am holding off from using it now, in fact I am not playing at all. But as soon as there is a final version I will get it.

I also plan to make steps to incorporate this into Sh3Gen, I hope to be able to give the player information about wolfpack activity and other boats trailing convoys, as well as Allied and Italian submarines when there are any.

[sergbuto]

sounds intrigueing Serg'

on the evade thing...they do start to zig zag when they have detected an enemy..which is close enough for jazz as they say..i dunno if you have found this at all?
if not extend your AI modifications for the subs by editing the sim files to read at the start listing the AI instructions/

to list in order

CMDR_AISHIP
CMDR_AIFIGHT
CMDR_AIFIGHT
CMDR_AIUNIT

then the subs start zigg zagging in the same way as the escorts do when an enemy is detected.

appolgies if you have this sussed allready..
it's not exactly full evasion but it's at least effective against torp attacks and involves the use of the rudder (hence allowing for the rudder drag idea to work and rapid variation in course and speed):up:

Yes, CB. I know about zig-zagging but that is done by surfaced AI subs. I meant submerged subs which I primerily created for Wolfpack operations. They do not seem to do zig-zagging, at least in my test mission. Maybe it is a matter of having enough speed or visual detecting the enemy? Maybe I need to check the location of corresponding nodes and give sonar to the subs? But I will be glad to hear if you have seen the submerged subs zig-zagging.

[CB..]

sounds intrigueing Serg'

on the evade thing...they do start to zig zag when they have detected an enemy..which is close enough for jazz as they say..i dunno if you have found this at all?
if not extend your AI modifications for the subs by editing the sim files to read at the start listing the AI instructions/

to list in order

CMDR_AISHIP
CMDR_AIFIGHT
CMDR_AIFIGHT
CMDR_AIUNIT

then the subs start zigg zagging in the same way as the escorts do when an enemy is detected.

appolgies if you have this sussed allready..
it's not exactly full evasion but it's at least effective against torp attacks and involves the use of the rudder (hence allowing for the rudder drag idea to work and rapid variation in course and speed):up:

Yes, CB. I know about zig-zagging but that is done by surfaced AI subs. I meant submerged subs which I primerily created for Wolfpack operations. They do not seem to do zig-zagging, at least in my test mission. Maybe it is a matter of having enough speed or visual detecting the enemy? Maybe I need to check the location of corresponding nodes and give sonar to the subs? But I will be glad to hear if you have seen the submerged subs zig-zagging.
i had no success with adding sensors to the AI subs i must admit....
interestingly tho you can remove ALL the sensors from the subs and it still gives them a default visual detection capability..perhaps the trick might be to find the default sensor and edit it so it has some sort of limited underwater range...as the game seems to only use this sensor when all others are removed (?? one hopes!!!) this underwater "vision" wouldn't be used by the other vessels..either that or creating a new unique visual sensor (i hear this is possible?) specifically for the AI subs that can see underwater would allow them to detect and react to enemy vessels including the player im assuming..dunno...you could even perhaps try altering the surface depth to say 50 metres..dunno if the game will take any notice of this...how did you get the gun node to fire whilst the subs were submerged? they must be able to detect the enemy in order to fire or is it automatic in the same way as the torp fireing is? etc

i can't remember if the test sub i used for the AI_CMDR edit evaded when set at scope depth..but that at least should be possible...a custom visual sensor might be the answer i don't know why they didn't seem to use hydrophones or sonar sensors at all...if the escorts can use them then it's a bit of mystery that one...something to do with the class of ship must be the root of that limitation...change the class of vessel the sub is listed as and perhaps it will be able to use the full range of sensors used by other AI vessels..??? tho that might have other drawbacks if possible....

one thing tho is that if they can be persuaded to submerge by using the evasion rudder drag trick, to slow them down below their ability to maintain depth - then the evasion should continue for a short period - untill it runs thru it's evasion routine and then it will surface again then dive again if there's still enemy around - which would be entertaining..but i remeber that the hummingbird efefct doesn't cover fully surfaced ships. as they have a different set of rules..it may be some sort of bodge might be possible if all the bits and bobs needed can be knitted together..can the model file be moved so it appears on the surface even tho it is at scope depth...can a sensor be rigged up that works at scope depth....does the humming bird efefct work on AI subs etc etc...

[sergbuto]

Thanks. I guess now it even better than the first wolfpack mod version (and the PT boats too, if the same principle is applied). I mostly enjoyed the single mission of your PT boat mod.:D
I am trying to improve the performance of PT boats against the player sub so it really looks and feels like they are attacking with torpedoes. In connection with this, I have made two version of Vosper but extensive testing is required to determine which one is better in this respect. Such testing requires playing in a campaign mod to encounter these PT boats in various situations. Unfortunately, I do not have enough time to do that but wondering if someone else will be willing to help with such testing.

[bigboywooly]

Count me in for testing Serg :up:

[VonHelsching]

Thanks. I guess now it even better than the first wolfpack mod version (and the PT boats too, if the same principle is applied). I mostly enjoyed the single mission of your PT boat mod.:D
I am trying to improve the performance of PT boats against the player sub so it really looks and feels like they are attacking with torpedoes. In connection with this, I have made two version of Vosper but extensive testing is required to determine which one is better in this respect. Such testing requires playing in a campaign mod to encounter these PT boats in various situations. Unfortunately, I do not have enough time to do that but wondering if someone else will be willing to help with such testing.

I´m interested. I will contact you as soon as I have free time from other modding activites. :up:

[DarkFolle]

thx to u guys for this super mod....only one thing..
is there a way to re-have names of ships only in the Recog manual without affecting anythin else? maybe this is not really realistic (i dunno) but it is useful to ppl to know more about WWII..

[bigboywooly]

is there a way to re-have names of ships only in the Recog manual ..

??? Dont get you :oops:

[sergbuto]

Version 2.0 of the wolfpack mod can be downloaded on my SH3 site.

[bigboywooly]

Version 2.0 of the wolfpack mod can be downloaded on my SH3 site.

Does this mean you have cracked the torpedos Serg ?

[mr chris]

I dont think so BBW have just downloaded version 2.0 and the readme file says this: The mod includes AI U-boats capable of moving on the surface and attacking Allied shipping with their deck and AA guns. Now, they have some crew on the deck.

[sergbuto]

Version 2.0 of the wolfpack mod can be downloaded on my SH3 site.

Does this mean you have cracked the torpedos Serg ?

Not really sure what you mean by cracked torpedoes but it is essentially what I showed and discussed above.

[sergbuto]

I dont think so BBW have just downloaded version 2.0 and the readme file says this: The mod includes AI U-boats capable of moving on the surface and attacking Allied shipping with their deck and AA guns. Now, they have some crew on the deck.

That is the German AI-subs mod not the Wolfpack mod (which is number 11 on the mod list).

[mr chris]

I dont think so BBW have just downloaded version 2.0 and the readme file says this: The mod includes AI U-boats capable of moving on the surface and attacking Allied shipping with their deck and AA guns. Now, they have some crew on the deck.

That is the German AI-subs mod not the Wolfpack mod (which is number 11 on the mod list).
Sorry Serg my bad:damn:

[mr chris]

Serg do you need the German AI-subs mod to work the Wolfpack mod?

[sergbuto]

These are independent mods.

[bigboywooly]

Serg do you need the German AI-subs mod to work the Wolfpack mod?

No
The AI subs are included in GW

[bigboywooly]

Version 2.0 of the wolfpack mod can be downloaded on my SH3 site.

Does this mean you have cracked the torpedos Serg ?

Not really sure what you mean by cracked torpedoes but it is essentially what I showed and discussed above.

Sorry
What I meant was you have them working so they attack shipping ?
I guess you do or you wouldnt have released it:oops:

Can you do the same to the submerged S class so it will attack Axis shipping\uboats if it comes across them ?

[mr chris]

Thanks for the replies.
Was just having a mad five minutes:damn:

[Kruger]

Serg, I've noticed that I cannot download the Lifeboats Mod from your site....can you help me pls ?

[sergbuto]

Can you do the same to the submerged S class so it will attack Axis shipping\uboats if it comes across them ?

In principle, it is possible but they will not attack submerged subs. I am also thinking on adding this ability to the surfaced German AI subs.

Anyhow I will continue to work on improvement of AI subs behavior based on CB ideas of the rudder drag or/and giving better sensors and on possibility to implement real torpedoes. This may take time though since I also have other projects and usually loose interest quite quickly when work on the same problem for some time.

[sergbuto]

Serg, I've noticed that I cannot download the Lifeboats Mod from your site....can you help me pls ?

There is no download "yet".

[bigboywooly]

Can you do the same to the submerged S class so it will attack Axis shipping\uboats if it comes across them ?

In principle, it is possible but they will not attack submerged subs. I am also thinking on adding this ability to the surfaced German AI subs.

Anyhow I will continue to work on improvement of AI subs behavior based on CB ideas of the rudder drag or/and giving better sensors and on possibility to implement real torpedoes. This may take time though since I also have other projects and usually loose interest quite quickly when work on the same problem for some time.

Yeah understand that Serg
Thanks for all you have done so far - its much appreciated :rock:

[Kruger]

Great job with everything Serg, thank you.

[RedChico]

The things you modders accomplish:o.

When are these torpedoes going to be implemented into the Grey Wolves mod:p?


1st: OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG:rock:

2nd: checkout Grand Prix Legends its a good example how modders can change a game.

[bigboywooly]

Serg
Just played the single mission in the wolfpack mod
Subs took plenty of damage
Didnt see any torpedo hits tho
But I did notice the AI subs changed couse
While watching from above the wake from the periscope would alter course - not a wild swing just a gentle curve
Dont know if you can make it out from this pic but rudder is turned and so is wake

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4784/screenhunter013qk0.jpg

Still not seeing them torpedo anything tho :hmm: will have to give it a few more goes

[Anvart]

Serg
Just played the single mission in the wolfpack mod
Subs took plenty of damage
Didnt see any torpedo hits tho
But I did notice the AI subs changed couse
While watching from above the wake from the periscope would alter course - not a wild swing just a gentle curve
Dont know if you can make it out from this pic but rudder is turned and so is wake
..............................................
Still not seeing them torpedo anything tho :hmm: will have to give it a few more goes
What do you want?
It's the ship in clothes of a submarine.

:rotfl:

[bigboywooly]

Serg
Just played the single mission in the wolfpack mod
Subs took plenty of damage
Didnt see any torpedo hits tho
But I did notice the AI subs changed couse
While watching from above the wake from the periscope would alter course - not a wild swing just a gentle curve
Dont know if you can make it out from this pic but rudder is turned and so is wake
..............................................
Still not seeing them torpedo anything tho :hmm: will have to give it a few more goes
What do you want?
It's the ship in clothes of a submarine.

:rotfl:


What I meant Anvart is I have not seen them sink any ships but have in the next play of mission :up: and they definately do turn :rock: to avoid DC

[Anvart]

Serg
Just played the single mission in the wolfpack mod
Subs took plenty of damage
Didnt see any torpedo hits tho
But I did notice the AI subs changed couse
While watching from above the wake from the periscope would alter course - not a wild swing just a gentle curve
Dont know if you can make it out from this pic but rudder is turned and so is wake
..............................................
Still not seeing them torpedo anything tho :hmm: will have to give it a few more goes
What do you want?
It's the ship in clothes of a submarine.

:rotfl:


What I meant Anvart is I have not seen them sink any ships but have in the next play of mission :up: and they definately do turn :rock: to avoid DC

In single mission which was applied to the mod I saw.
AI sub shoot invisible guns (not torpedos).


:hmm:

[bigboywooly]

http://files.filefront.com/AI_subswmv/;5376966;;/fileinfo.html

Only a short video because it kills my computer when recording but you can see the rudders turn

Yes I know they shoot guns not torpedos

[sergbuto]

In single mission which was applied to the mod I saw.
AI sub shoot invisible guns (not torpedos).
Yes I know they shoot guns not torpedos

Especially when it is explained in the mod Readme. :rotfl: But one can't see that in the game.

bigboywooly,

I see it has finally worked for you and subs have sunk something. Often they get destroyed by escorts before they get a chance to attack in the mission.

As to evading, what I meant is that submerged AI subs do not seem to do as wide zig-zagging as surfaced AI subs but it might be wrong impression because I have not compared it in detail. Certainly, I would prefer to see more drastic evading efforts from the submerdged subs.

Thanks for the video, by the way.

[Cdre Gibs]

Firstly let me say that Serg's efforts on the AI Subs is out standing. Big improvment over just eye candy AI subs.

However, Serg's wolfpack mod at this stage, is not ideal since they still use guns and not torpedo's. Now I know its not an easy thing to get sorted (Guns V's Torpedos for AI subs) but due to the nature of other mods and what happens when they are combined, the wolfpack mod is being watched closley but thats all.

[sergbuto]

Firstly let me say that Serg's efforts on the AI Subs is out standing. Big improvment over just eye candy AI subs.

However, Serg's wolfpack mod at this stage, is not ideal since they still use guns and not torpedo's. Now I know its not an easy thing to get sorted (Guns V's Torpedos for AI subs) but due to the nature of other mods and what happens when they are combined, the wolfpack mod is being watched closley but thats all.
And? Am I supposed to loose my sleep now? :lol: I do not recall signing up an obligation about making an ideal mod for someone. :lol:

[Cdre Gibs]

Heck No Serg, Ya silly bugger :lol:
I wasn't even directing my comments at you, I was directing them at those wondering about your Wolfpack mod and GW.

I freely admit I can see the potential of your mod and if 1 day we (the modding community that is) can crack those last few little annoying things (like the right weapons for the right units and what not), then we will get the ideal mod. Till then we do what we can and I totaly understand what your up against with regards to the limits of SH3 and its lil quirks.

[mikaelanderlund]

I think sergbuto's wolfpack mod is the "ideal" mod, the most important for this sim:up: :up: :up: . Without sergbuto's wolfpack mod included in the game, I'm only a lonely poor dog:down: . Keep up the good work and don't listen to silly buggers!

Mikael

[bigboywooly]

:rotfl:
Trouble is none of the AI units "fire" torpedos
Sometimes you just have to accept the limitations the game throws at you
You cant tell they fire guns not torpedos
Makes no odds to me - I think it works great that why I use it :up:

[Anvart]

In single mission which was applied to the mod I saw.
AI sub shoot invisible guns (not torpedos).
Yes I know they shoot guns not torpedos

Especially when it is explained in the mod Readme. :rotfl: But one can't see that in the game.

Why readme?
In readme of U-BoatWarAce standaloneV1.4 mod anything is not present about submarines torpedos and guns.
But I always analyze files by HexEdit, Pack3D and others.
But I can something have passed?
I do not understand half of phrases.

:hmm:

[bigboywooly]

In single mission which was applied to the mod I saw.
AI sub shoot invisible guns (not torpedos).
Yes I know they shoot guns not torpedos

Especially when it is explained in the mod Readme. :rotfl: But one can't see that in the game.

Why readme?
In readme of U-BoatWarAce standaloneV1.4 mod anything is not present about submarines torpedos and guns.
But I always analyze files by HexEdit, Pack3D and others.
But I can something have passed?
I do not understand half of phrases.

:hmm:


Well we are talking abou the Wolfpack mod not UBWA

Readme Wolfpack

v 1.0
I succeeded to make a German sub which moves at the periscope depth and attacks Allied shipping with "virtual" torpedoes. The "virtual" torpedoes are invisible 14Inch guns. Unfortunately, I could not get rid of the flash/smoke/traces when guns are firing but it is not really noticable or understandable what is going on, especially when DDs/escorts are attacking submerged AI subs.Since it was not pissible to limit the ammo amount, the gun rotation/elevation is greatly limited and the sub can fire only directly ahead.

v2.0
Now there are no gun flash and firing sound, no shell trace or splash upon hitting the water surface. There are the same damaging properties and caliber as real torpedoes have and subs get realistic amount of torpedoes. It is impossible to identify the moment when torpedoes have been fired. Now in terms of look, feel and immersion, the only difference from the situation with real electric torpedoes is that you can't hear torpedoes with hydrophone. But when attacking a convoy it is anyhow difficult to identify torpedoes in the water because of quite a few ships around.

[Anvart]

In single mission which was applied to the mod I saw.
AI sub shoot invisible guns (not torpedos).
Yes I know they shoot guns not torpedos

Especially when it is explained in the mod Readme. :rotfl: But one can't see that in the game.

Why readme?
In readme of U-BoatWarAce standaloneV1.4 mod anything is not present about submarines torpedos and guns.
But I always analyze files by HexEdit, Pack3D and others.
But I can something have passed?
I do not understand half of phrases.

:hmm:


Well we are talking abou the Wolfpack mod not UBWA

Readme Wolfpack

v 1.0
I succeeded to make a German sub which moves at the periscope depth and attacks Allied shipping with "virtual" torpedoes. The "virtual" torpedoes are invisible 14Inch guns. Unfortunately, I could not get rid of the flash/smoke/traces when guns are firing but it is not really noticable or understandable what is going on, especially when DDs/escorts are attacking submerged AI subs.Since it was not pissible to limit the ammo amount, the gun rotation/elevation is greatly limited and the sub can fire only directly ahead.

v2.0
Now there are no gun flash and firing sound, no shell trace or splash upon hitting the water surface. There are the same damaging properties and caliber as real torpedoes have and subs get realistic amount of torpedoes. It is impossible to identify the moment when torpedoes have been fired. Now in terms of look, feel and immersion, the only difference from the situation with real electric torpedoes is that you can't hear torpedoes with hydrophone. But when attacking a convoy it is anyhow difficult to identify torpedoes in the water because of quite a few ships around.
Approximately clearly.
Where there is node M01 I has found, when has replaced virtual torpedo with a standard gun in file NSS_Uboat... eqp.
And after the analysis of files it was easy to guess the basic idea.

[bigboywooly]

Had another go of the single mission and this time the AI subs sank about 8 ships - including a couple of escorts :up:
Sooo cool :rotfl:

[Anvart]

Had another go of the single mission and this time the AI subs sank about 8 ships - including a couple of escorts :up:
Sooo cool :rotfl:
Good stuff.
Good job :up:

[sergbuto]

Had another go of the single mission and this time the AI subs sank about 8 ships - including a couple of escorts :up:
Sooo cool :rotfl:

In this version of the mod, AI wolfpack subs use their limited number of torpedoes more efficiently. They do not attack from long distances. If the subs get through the escort screen, when the escorts can't cover the whole area or some of them are sunk, the subs become quite dangreous. Maybe I should take away their ability to fire salvos and force them to use single torpedoes at the time so that more damaged ships (instead of sunk) can be seen by the player. This may raise the immersion factor.

[mikaelanderlund]

Had another go of the single mission and this time the AI subs sank about 8 ships - including a couple of escorts :up:
Sooo cool :rotfl:

In this version of the mod, AI wolfpack subs use their limited number of torpedoes more efficiently. They do not attack from long distances. If the subs get through the escort screen, when the escorts can't cover the whole area or some of them are sunk, the subs become quite dangreous. Maybe I should take away their ability to fire salvos and force them to use single torpedoes at the time so that more damaged ships (instead of sunk) can be seen by the player. This may raise the immersion factor.

Hi Sergbuto,

I think fire salvos is better than single torpedoes but that maybe depends on which super mod you are using. I am using GW and you need a lot of torpedoes to sink a ship. I have seen both damaged and sinking ships with latest wolfpack mod and that is good!.

Mikael

[bigboywooly]

Had another go of the single mission and this time the AI subs sank about 8 ships - including a couple of escorts :up:
Sooo cool :rotfl:

In this version of the mod, AI wolfpack subs use their limited number of torpedoes more efficiently. They do not attack from long distances. If the subs get through the escort screen, when the escorts can't cover the whole area or some of them are sunk, the subs become quite dangreous. Maybe I should take away their ability to fire salvos and force them to use single torpedoes at the time so that more damaged ships (instead of sunk) can be seen by the player. This may raise the immersion factor.

Most of the escorts were sunk when they circled the AI boat after attacking it and were across the bow
After that they had a free run into convoy lanes and then sailed thru
But they were scripted to run at an angle to intercept in that mission so not sure how they would fare in a normal scr

[Col7777]

Is this the thread you were looking for?


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=85169&highlight=wolfpack


Hello CB/Serg, just visiting. :)

[sergbuto]

Yes, Col7777, that is it. Good ideas. In a single player mode, some of them are applied in NYGM.

You should visit here more often.