Any way to Mod in the: Scharnhorst and Gneisenau Battleships

[Charlie901]

Would be nice to add the aforementioned BB to the German Roster without looking EXACTLY like the Bismark model.

Could this be done using the existing Bismark or Hipper Heavy Cruiser model?

[Kalach]

It's proberly possible.
I'm always up for new ships/aircraft so long as their changes aren't too subtle.

[iambecomelife]

Would be nice to add the aforementioned BB to the German Roster without looking EXACTLY like the Bismark model.

Could this be done using the existing Bismark or Hipper Heavy Cruiser model?

It's possible to clone them, but someone would need to create the appropriate triple turret. As things stand now we have a choice of using the Fiji class's undersized guns or the Nelson's oversized ones. I just cloned the KGV as the "Renown-Repulse", and I selected this in large part because there is already a twin 15" turret in-game. Modelling armament in 3d and importing it is not possible until we get the you-know-what... :-?

[Type941]

I've asked Commander to do this may be last month, and he said that there was a problem with triplets (from Rodney) as they really were only brought over with casemates. So it looked not very good.

here's a picture


http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/5674/bisscharn3uh.jpg


Why would you use HIpper for this? Hipper is so much smaller! The Ugly Sisters were just 20m shorter and may be few thousand tons less in displacement, while Hipper was just a heavy cruiser. So if anything, only Bismarck should be used. BUt as mentioned before - Rodney's gun's are too big for this.

[Syxx_Killer]

I remember a thread recently (by CCIP if I remember right), where he supersized a Catalina. Maybe he could change the size of the guns.

Edit:

I found the thread. Here it is:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=387151&highlight=#387151

[Jace11]

Where is the triple turret from? I saw that as a problem and didn't know how you'd do it...

[oRGy]

Extracting the 3d obj information with DATConverter tool allows you to then hex-edit the dimensions of 3d objects in the .dat files I believe.

(Multiply the values once you've identified them)

This is what I did for the moon in scene.dat for the vis mod - however that was simple as it was just a square.

Syxx_Killer - that thread doesn't contain any info about resizing the catalina, it's only the camera angle and fov that makes the cat in the screenshots look larger.

[Type941]

Where is the triple turret from? I saw that as a problem and didn't know how you'd do it...

AS I mentioned above, the turret is from Rodney/Nelson bb, a 15 inch I believe (far too big). BUT it would look 'alright' perhaps if it was without a casemate.

[Syxx_Killer]

Syxx_Killer - that thread doesn't contain any info about resizing the catalina, it's only the camera angle and fov that makes the cat in the screenshots look larger.

How could it be different camera settings? The sub doesn't look any bigger, just the plane.

[oRGy]

I don't know but in that thread the author explicitly states that he did not resize the catalina in any way. Another reason is that the catalina is in fact that big in game, it's just quite rare that you'd see it up close to the sub like that.

[Shadow9216]

The plane is a Sunderland...which is a VERY big plane. Four engines vice the Catalina's two. Also, the double row of porthole windows points to the plane's prior use as a transport.

[oRGy]

Yep, my mistake. They were in fact quite big planes.

[Charlie901]

I've asked Commander to do this may be last month, and he said that there was a problem with triplets (from Rodney) as they really were only brought over with casemates. So it looked not very good.

here's a picture


http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/5674/bisscharn3uh.jpg


Why would you use HIpper for this? Hipper is so much smaller! The Ugly Sisters were just 20m shorter and may be few thousand tons less in displacement, while Hipper was just a heavy cruiser. So if anything, only Bismarck should be used. BUt as mentioned before - Rodney's gun's are too big for this.



Darn, almost there, although those Bismark stripes would probably have to go as well.

[Commander1980]

I was able to place one turret lower with hex-editing, so that the barbette was not visible (as in Rodney). But it was only luck and i was not able to do this again and unfortunately i forget to save that dat-file. Nevetheless, the gun is to big.

As far as i unterstand, turrets and barrels are something seperated in the guns.dat (you will find entry like "14InchTripleT_barrel"). Maybe it is possible to combine the 14"Inch barrels with that 15" turret from Bismarck....

The other gun that is missing, is the 6 Inch Single Turret. I do not understand why this gun is not available, because it was widely used. Not only Scharnhorsts and Graf Spee - many light cruisers of all countries used them. And don't forget that the Auxillary Cruisers had 6 Inch Singles not those 4,7" guns they are equipeed with in the game...

[Type941]

well of course the stripes would have to go, I have made an all gray skin for it, but that's let's say the least of problems, as Commander described above.

[Deep-Six]

Read this:

The design was a compromise between a Battleship and the a heavy armament Pocket battleship. Built at Wilhelmshaven and laid down on the 16th May 1935, launched 3rd October 1936 and completed 7th January 1939. (refitted just after completion with a clipper bow so called a Atlantic Bow increasing the length by 33 feet, (to 770 ft 8 inches) this took until September 1939. Scharnhorsrt was torpedoed by a Royal Naval Submarine during the Norwegian campaign. repairs took until October 1940. After repairs she acted with her sister ship attacking allied shipping between January and Mrch1 1941. During the "Channel dash" on the 12th February 1942 the Scharnhorst (along with Gneisenau were mined but managed to reach the safety of the German Port. her repairs took place at Kiel and were completed in October 1942. In March 1943 the Scharnhorst was transferred to Northern Norway to continue her commerce raiding on Allied shipping, But on the 26th December 1943, while attempting to intercept convoy JW-55B. she encountered a large British Force of the battleship HMS Duke of York and the cruisers HMS Belfast, HMS Jamaica and HMS Norfolk. Initially HMS Norfolk engaged the Scharnhorst and a lucky hit knocked out the radar systems of the Scharnhorst. soon after the Scharnhorst was engaged by the Battleship HMS Duke of York along with the cruisers and was sunk with the loss of 1,803 crew (she had been hit by a number of shells and 14 torpedoes. This engagement took place north east of the North cape.

Scharnhorst, was a Battlecruiser, Built in 1938, with a compliment of 1800. Her top speed was 31 knots and she had an armament of Nine 11-inch guns and Twelve 6-inch guns, with a secondary armament of fourteen 4-inch guns and sixteen 1.5 inch AA Guns, she also carried 6 Torpedo Tubes.

Source at:http://www.naval-art.com/scharnhorst.htm

These two ships are mislabed as BBs and should be considered BCs.
This is form a historical perspective.

[Type941]

well, after the atlantic bow was added, they gained a very Bismarck-esque appearance. Yes, it's known they are really not full fledged battleships as only the Bismarck class was a full BB from inception, with more classes scheduled, including that monstrous 140000 ton ship, but of course all of that was scrapped in favour of... that's right, U-boats. :up:

[Wulfmann]

Scharnhorst was not torpedoed by a submarine in Norway; that was Gneisenau.
Scharnhorst was torpedoed by the destroyer HMS Acasta when the twins sank the aircraft carrier HMS Glorious.
During the North Cape battle, Scharnhorst initially encountered the cruisers HMS Norfolk, Sheffield and Belfast. As was stated above, the forward radar was knocked out by HMS Norfolk (Norfolk had knocked out Bismarck’s main gunnery control, the most important hit against the battleship after the torpedo hit)
Scharnhorst turned away and circled around. The British tracked her and kept her from the convoy but the Germans were ready thing time. Norfolk was the only ship not using flashless powder so was easily targeted and sustained two serious hits with Sheffield being sprayed by splinters the Germans actually had a chance to wipe out these cruisers but instead turned for home and ran into the battleship HMS Duke of York and cruiser Jamaica and their destroyers.
Belfast kept track of Scharnhorst while the two wounded cruisers held back. Belfast had the most modern radar at the scene and with the Duke of York and Jamaica and all the destroyers subdued the great ship.
Many things are fascinating about this battle. One, a 14inch shell hit near turret Bruno starting a fire in the magazine. This was flooded (note after a fire started which would have destroyed any other nation’s battleship) and then drained.
How is this possible?
Because the Germans did not use silk bags like all other navies. Their powder charges were in brass cases (Imagine the sizing dies for reloading, LOL).
Battered from all sides the hit that doomed her was a 14inch shell that passed into the engine room and reduced her speed or she would have escaped as she always did before.
She literally fought to the last shell. Out of ammo she was sunk with many torpedoes, 14 being thought but there could have been more; she would have sunk anyway sooner or later.
This time (unlike Bismarck) the British tried their best to get to the crew in the freezing dark waters but only 36 survived. As they sat on deck the British crew called out “Three cheers for the Scharnhorst.”
Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser, deeply moved by the heroics of the Germans said to his officers. “Gentlemen, the battle against the Scharnhorst has ended in a victory for us. I hope that any of you who are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, will command your ship as gallantly as the Scharnhorst was commanded today.”

On the return from Russia, Sir Bruce ordered a wreath dropped at the site of the sinking (unprecedented) and the British brought the 36 survivors back to Britain rather than leave them with the Russians.
The Scharnhorst was mentioned in news reports more than any warship of World War II

A final chapter. 2 of the crew made off in a small motor launch past the British and made it to an island. Americans found them later. Their kerosene heater exploded killing them both.
Now that is as bad a luck as I have ever heard of. Deserves a country song!!

Sorry for the rant but I wrote a story on this a few years back so had the research done!

Wulfmann

[iambecomelife]

Scharnhorst was not torpedoed by a submarine in Norway; that was Gneisenau.
Scharnhorst was torpedoed by the destroyer HMS Acasta when the twins sank the aircraft carrier HMS Glorious.
During the North Cape battle, Scharnhorst initially encountered the cruisers HMS Norfolk, Sheffield and Belfast. As was stated above, the forward radar was knocked out by HMS Norfolk (Norfolk had knocked out Bismarck’s main gunnery control, the most important hit against the battleship after the torpedo hit)
Scharnhorst turned away and circled around. The British tracked her and kept her from the convoy but the Germans were ready thing time. Norfolk was the only ship not using flashless powder so was easily targeted and sustained two serious hits with Sheffield being sprayed by splinters the Germans actually had a chance to wipe out these cruisers but instead turned for home and ran into the battleship HMS Duke of York and cruiser Jamaica and their destroyers.
Belfast kept track of Scharnhorst while the two wounded cruisers held back. Belfast had the most modern radar at the scene and with the Duke of York and Jamaica and all the destroyers subdued the great ship.
Many things are fascinating about this battle. One, a 14inch shell hit near turret Bruno starting a fire in the magazine. This was flooded (note after a fire started which would have destroyed any other nation’s battleship) and then drained.
How is this possible?
Because the Germans did not use silk bags like all other navies. Their powder charges were in brass cases (Imagine the sizing dies for reloading, LOL).
Battered from all sides the hit that doomed her was a 14inch shell that passed into the engine room and reduced her speed or she would have escaped as she always did before.
She literally fought to the last shell. Out of ammo she was sunk with many torpedoes, 14 being thought but there could have been more; she would have sunk anyway sooner or later.
This time (unlike Bismarck) the British tried their best to get to the crew in the freezing dark waters but only 36 survived. As they sat on deck the British crew called out “Three cheers for the Scharnhorst.”
Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser, deeply moved by the heroics of the Germans said to his officers. “Gentlemen, the battle against the Scharnhorst has ended in a victory for us. I hope that any of you who are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, will command your ship as gallantly as the Scharnhorst was commanded today.”

On the return from Russia, Sir Bruce ordered a wreath dropped at the site of the sinking (unprecedented) and the British brought the 36 survivors back to Britain rather than leave them with the Russians.
The Scharnhorst was mentioned in news reports more than any warship of World War II

A final chapter. 2 of the crew made off in a small motor launch past the British and made it to an island. Americans found them later. Their kerosene heater exploded killing them both.
Now that is as bad a luck as I have ever heard of. Deserves a country song!!

Sorry for the rant but I wrote a story on this a few years back so had the research done!

Wulfmann

That's fascinating. I'd seen something on the History Channel about her but this has details that even they left out. That's a shame about those 2 survivors...

[Charlie901]

Scharnhorst was not torpedoed by a submarine in Norway; that was Gneisenau.
Scharnhorst was torpedoed by the destroyer HMS Acasta when the twins sank the aircraft carrier HMS Glorious.
During the North Cape battle, Scharnhorst initially encountered the cruisers HMS Norfolk, Sheffield and Belfast. As was stated above, the forward radar was knocked out by HMS Norfolk (Norfolk had knocked out Bismarck’s main gunnery control, the most important hit against the battleship after the torpedo hit)
Scharnhorst turned away and circled around. The British tracked her and kept her from the convoy but the Germans were ready thing time. Norfolk was the only ship not using flashless powder so was easily targeted and sustained two serious hits with Sheffield being sprayed by splinters the Germans actually had a chance to wipe out these cruisers but instead turned for home and ran into the battleship HMS Duke of York and cruiser Jamaica and their destroyers.
Belfast kept track of Scharnhorst while the two wounded cruisers held back. Belfast had the most modern radar at the scene and with the Duke of York and Jamaica and all the destroyers subdued the great ship.
Many things are fascinating about this battle. One, a 14inch shell hit near turret Bruno starting a fire in the magazine. This was flooded (note after a fire started which would have destroyed any other nation’s battleship) and then drained.
How is this possible?
Because the Germans did not use silk bags like all other navies. Their powder charges were in brass cases (Imagine the sizing dies for reloading, LOL).
Battered from all sides the hit that doomed her was a 14inch shell that passed into the engine room and reduced her speed or she would have escaped as she always did before.
She literally fought to the last shell. Out of ammo she was sunk with many torpedoes, 14 being thought but there could have been more; she would have sunk anyway sooner or later.
This time (unlike Bismarck) the British tried their best to get to the crew in the freezing dark waters but only 36 survived. As they sat on deck the British crew called out “Three cheers for the Scharnhorst.”
Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser, deeply moved by the heroics of the Germans said to his officers. “Gentlemen, the battle against the Scharnhorst has ended in a victory for us. I hope that any of you who are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, will command your ship as gallantly as the Scharnhorst was commanded today.”

On the return from Russia, Sir Bruce ordered a wreath dropped at the site of the sinking (unprecedented) and the British brought the 36 survivors back to Britain rather than leave them with the Russians.
The Scharnhorst was mentioned in news reports more than any warship of World War II

A final chapter. 2 of the crew made off in a small motor launch past the British and made it to an island. Americans found them later. Their kerosene heater exploded killing them both.
Now that is as bad a luck as I have ever heard of. Deserves a country song!!

Sorry for the rant but I wrote a story on this a few years back so had the research done!

Wulfmann




WOW!


Although it makes me want this BB more than ever now. :damn:

[Type941]

Thanks for that info Wulfman! :up:

I definately want to make a movie out of that one now.. :hulk: