Patch, any news at all? Jamie, please....

[XabbaRus]

Says it all....please Jamie, some news....we are being very patient but I want to see DWX get cracking so I can get some up coming models out.

I'll be releasing the models anyway (mine at the least) but it would be preferable with DWX and that is waiting for the patch I think..

Please Jamie,,,almost begging here... :-?

[DivingWind]

Supporting XabbaRus!

[Snakeeyes]

Roger that! :rock:

[Bill Nichols]

Here! Here! :rock:

[Kapitan]

with xabba all the way

personaly if you dont hurry or start posting things soon you could have a mutiny on your hands

[Captain Nemo]

You have my full support on this one.

Nemo

[Amizaur]

Also it would be great to know which bugs are acknowledged and worked on for this patch. We report bugs, but very rarely have any feedback from SCS... I personally reported few bugs on Battlefront tech support forum with detailed description, and there is still 0 replies in those threads :-? at least someone could reply in few words to confirm that it have been read and acknowledged...
Personally I'm curious if they found the bug in doctrine language interpreter (or searched for it at all) that I still haven't worked out and reported ? With some bugs I'm waiting with report until I have them worked out to be SURE what I'm writing... but maybe it's needless work, maybe they are acknowledged long before and even fixed and ready for patch - only we don't know about it ? Would be great to know what bugs are acknowledged, worked on and already fixed by programists. Is that possible ?

[LuftWolf]

I'm with Xabba and the others. :know:

I suspect you have no intention of releasing the patch until the
retail version is ready.

If that is the case, let us know now so we can plan, as there are a lot of people putting work into DW with no thought of reward other than a better gaming experience from your product.

[TLAM Strike]

I was debating with my self if I should ask Xabba to release all his SC/DW models. So woot!

[Skybird]

:yep:

[XabbaRus]

Like I said it will be for vanilla dbase only. I will provide instructions on how to install and edit dbases of dbase mods to include them, but at the moment I would rather they not end up in various different mod packs. No offence to the mods that Luft and Amizaur are working on but if they start doing the rounds in different packs it will get confusing and other stuff.

[Amizaur]

Actually, I don't care for graphics (no offence to your work ;) , they are great :up: ), in fact in submarine simulation I care more for sounds that for graphics :-j

[Hellcat]

A know that sonalyst's is not a large developer but a tip of the hat goes a long way. Even an update every 2-3 weeks would be nice. Even better would be to have some sort of developer's diary which goes into detail concerning game design decisions and the like.

For example while the SP's (superpak) were being developed for Falcon 4.0, articles would be released to the community for their consumption. Sorta like keeping us hungry for more while waiting on the patches. Worked out to be very interesting reads concerning what goes on under the hood.

[jsteed]

As I feared, it appears that DW has become abandonware. Once SA found that it was not going to be a commercial success, they moved on to other projects. If there ever is another patch it will strictly be a volunteer effort on the part of the programmers.

This is a case of history repeating itself. The same scenario happened with SC. The one difference was that SC received more support early-on, and the remaining bugs did not make the game uninteresting to play. When it too was abandoned by SA, it was whole enough to make modding not only possible, but enjoyable. I do have to give SA credit, they were much more efficient in cutting their losses this time around. Only one patch and they were gone.

Personally, I put DW away some time ago due to the hardcoded sonar bugs. I do still play SC though. Since I am only interested in the sub aspect, speaking for myself, SC is a better game.

cheers, jsteed

[Pigfish]

I will beg with Xabb also... :yep: Any news would be good.

[OlegM]

LOL; incredible how roles changed...

Back in SC days it was me posting disappointed depressing stuff like Xabba and jsteed above, and was usually told to "keep the faith" and not to rock the boat ;)

Now with DW I came to realise we have to live with what we have... and apparently it's turn for some other "old hands" to feel the disappointment...

I play DW at least couple times per week, enjoy it a lot, and learned to live with it's remaining quirks. In fact my pet peeve lately is unrelated to the game engine itself, it's that quality user made scenarios are rare, and too many times I wasted couple hours on what turned out to be a buggy or badly documented user made mission :down:

Come on, lets give SCS guys some credit. I assume they are disappointed by certain lack of commercial success of DW, but patch will eventually come. As for the lack of commercial success, we could analyse it till cows come home... perhaps it's the publisher fault? Lack of retail distribution? Perhaps we as fans did too little too late to promote this title in our "circles"? Perhaps the goals were set unrealistically high?

I think some vital publishers, and small dev teams showed that wargaming and simming are not dead, SCS is just very specific...

I am sure Jamie will chime in in this thread too...

Also, knowing how slow and methodical Thom has always been in his work, it's not like DWX would appear anytime soon, even if 1.02 is released tomoroow, right? :smug:

O.

[Jamie]

We have been working very hard and are on the verge of a retail deal so that we all can see DW on the shelves in the very near future. The last thing that we would like to do is to give the impression that we are abandoning DW at this juncture when you (the community) will be of utmost importance.

In other words, as DW begins to receive some marketing attention, the product awareness begins to build, and interested customers come here to Subsim.... we need you (the core customer base) to help convince these prospective consumers that DW is a good way to spend their money. Personally, I come in the forums and do not get that sense whatsoever. If you want DW to succeed, we need your help in reinforcing the positive reviews (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/917994.asp) with real player experiences (AARs, etc) and overall enthusiasm.

If you do not believe in the product, then perhaps just as many of the simulation media pundits have predicted, DW will not succeed in retail as many of the simulations of late have not. But I don't understand why we can't at least fight hard for DW to succeed? I certainly am going to try!

Confused... :huh:

[LuftWolf]

Jamie,

I am confused as to why the database released with DW is a reflection of a product in early Beta rather than a retail simulation.

The fact that you talked about the retail version of the game and nothing at all about v1.02 tells me they are exactly the same thing.

Why are you confused that we are upset at you for asking us to buy and support a product that received less than your full effort?

I can't think anything but that, because I have spent weeks modding changes you guys could have done in three hours or less, WITHOUT compromising national security. :up:

Why do AI platforms all share only two passive sonar models? Why is the database equipped to handle features that you didn't impliment in the 1.0?

The sound vs. speed fix? Changes to a few values in thrusts. Come on guys, we are all smarter than your last post gives us credit for.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I can't think anything but that, because I have spent weeks modding changes you guys could have done in three hours or less, WITHOUT compromising national security. :up:

Why do AI platforms all share only two passive sonar models? Why is the database equipped to handle features that you didn't impliment in the 1.0?

The sound vs. speed fix? Changes to a few values in thrusts. Come on guys, we are all smarter than your last post gives us credit for.

Ditto. There are so many simple things that could have been fixed...

[Neutrino 123]

I've been to a few forums for fairly complex games, and one thing to realize is that it's VERY easy to miss an obvious bug during betatesting. I have NO CLUE why this is, since many of the bugs I've seen in various places a blatently obvious :88) , but since it's so prevalent, it can't reflect poorly on any specific developers.

That being said, it would still be nice to get a regular patch update every month or month-and-a-half. Maybe Sonalysts could simply list the changes they've added so far, and that definitely work? That way, there would be no unrealistic hype or inflated expectations, but the community could be sure there is progress going on, and maybe we can stop complaining about the issues that have been fixed! :ping:

[Orm]

Hi,

What said LuftWolf is right. Of course, it doesn’t mean that SCS job with DW was not good. I still think that this simulation is at the top of everything that is on the market nowadays, but I have to admit that for the lack of some “bugs fixing”, I have to restrain my choice of sub when playing MP due to fairness with other players. I mean by that, as a Kilo driver, a sub that I love most, I decided not to use it anymore as long time as the infamous BB bug will not be fix. :cry:

[Dr.Sid]

To be honest .. I don't mind bugs in DW .. I just want some new stuff.
New drivable platforms, better sound propagation simulation, bugfix, or just better graphics. I'm lucky with every modded texture too ! I play missions, quickmissions, campaign again and again. But what I like most, is to learn new stuff. I'm testing all platforms, all weapons, all skills. When somebody releases DB or doctrine mod, I download it and I learn how it work, then I try some missions, or even some campaign part and I see how the gameplay changed. This is GREAT :up:
This is also why I so desperatelly want upgrades, because you developer guys can make best ones. Anyway .. if there was a kit to build new drivable platforms by myself, THAT would really rock.

[XabbaRus]

I wasn't trying to rock the boat, was just wanting some info...

I still think DW is great but I have had a lot going on of late so haven't been able to sit down and play the sim,

You see I am eager to get models out to improve the look of a good sim that has the mechanics, I like my eye-candy, but for it to be done efficiently I would like to see DWX incorporate them.

I am glad Jamie has answered my question. I am happy with that and it is good to know he has time to post.

We should have a sticky thread titled, why you should play DW....

[Skybird]

we need you (the core customer base) to help convince these prospective consumers that DW is a good way to spend their money. Personally, I come in the forums and do not get that sense whatsoever.

:down: :nope:

These two emoticons instead of the longer and angry reply that I originally had written.

Fix the job you have been payed for by every customer so far. Just a fair demand of ours, since we all payed the full price you demanded. And since you do not seem to be aware - a vast majority of people here is VERY forgiving about your attitude towards them - six months for a final patch is... I bite my lips. :shifty:

[porphy]

Hi

Just give us some news on the patch. Xabbas original plea is very reasonable. Still being worked on? What things have been fixed, what are you planing to include? How much of your resources are available to finish the great job you started with 1.01 and after. (we do have a sticky thread with almost 30 pages with exemplary developer community interaction) :up:

Until we have any facts about the patch future, I won't voice any opinion on either SCS or the community. It's human nature to want know... It's like having pets, you have to feed them something at some point, or they start bad behaviour... ;)

Cheers Porphy

[Boomer Ang]

Now it's our fault, expecially mine , if we don't have the game working :rotfl: :rotfl:

I think SA have definetely lost the faith of remeining fans, sorry to say mine has already gone much time ago.

The sad side of the story is that this is one of the greatest community I have ever seen and it doesn't deserve this and above all it doesn't have to pay for SA marketing failures.

Boomer

P.S. of course I invite you all to boicot every game will be released from SA until DW will be fixed with 2 more patches , it's up to us to show a spine or be passive worms.

[Skybird]

Search some mustard, Boomer. You're just about to get grilled. :D

[Soulchaser]

@jamie:
so you want us, the community, to do what? Yelling around how great and unbeatable the game is? I'm sorry to tell you but its not. its one of the best naval(sub) sims ever, thats for sure, BUT also it is not really finished imho. there are alot of bugs to fix, things to balance and so on.

also it is nice to have the variety of platforms but then again, most people just want MORE. we are still a very patient sort of community and one of the most enjoyable too i must admit, but for sure there should be a sign of activity from SA's side from time to time and im afraid that a "we are still alive" wont be enough on the long therm.

What about addons by the way? I think its sad that we have a few VERY good modelers in our communtiy wich simpy arent ALLOWED to do an addon just because SA is probably, somewhere in future, but most likley never, planing to do some addons. i can see that you want to make money but seriously, i think the profit from the game should be good enough given the..... advanced price.

cooling down................
ok.
to every potentional customer i can say this: it IS of corse worth the money and even with the bugs VERY playable, especially MP is a blast. dont get yourself fooled by the "flaming", its just because we are here and waiting for pretty long now.

Disclaimer: NOT meant as flaming, badmouthing or anything else wich can be considered as "not nice".

[Bellman]

I agree entirely with jsteed -Personally, I put DW away some time ago due to the hardcoded sonar bugs. I do still play SC though. Since I am only interested in the sub aspect, speaking for myself, SC is a better game.


Only LuftAms mods and mission design keep me engaged. The jury is out and I may return solely to SCX MP.

Three major concerns :-
1. Bugs/faults diminish faith in the games credibility.
2. Lack of SA action raises cynical fears that the new retail version will incorporate a DWX + patch
and existing users may have to pay to upgrade.
3. I have observed that a significant number of serious, skilled and dedicated converts from SC/SCX
appear to have deserted DW. Optimisticaly some folk are just on long, long holidays.

SA must wake up to the fact that their user base is not solely possessed by them alone - we are not 'Sole Users'
many gamers actively operate several titles and Falcon, IL2, Steel Beasts and Harpoon are all making quantam leaps forward...............................right now !!

DW is a 'favourite'of mine from 2 years SC experience but patience is now beginning to fade fast !!

[DivingWind]

...still no detail on ??upcoming?? patch.....

[Jamie]

The only reason that I have not posted a patch update to this point is that many of the fixes are still up in the air and need to be tested for play balancing... If you would like a minimal list of sorts, then here:

- The STADIMETERS on all 4 subs now remember which platform was selected last time when a player re-enters the screen. Also, the list is circular.

- Kilo BB sound cheat was removed.

- Kilo speed bug (where speed increased to 18 knots when diving and ordering ahead 2/3) was fixed.

- The speed lock buttons were changed to behave like Sub Command. That means that they stay locked when autocrew TMA is on or off AND the player can still enter speed, course, bearing and range values even with the locks on. Autocrew was taught to honor the locks as he generates a solution.

- The way that the sub TMA's handle manual solutions was improved AND manual solutions can now be handled for the first time by the FFG TMA.

- A bug where the acoustic displays stopped displaying data from either helo's buoys when the sync'd helo was changed was fixed.

- Corrected a test in the sensor logic that could have failed incorrectly. (This was incidental and not related to any known bug)


- Corrected the speed vs OS noise bug in the submarines ("Sound vs. Speed" fix).

- Corrected a problem with the FFG Towed Array Save Game function which caused loaded gamaes to ignore changes in the contact list.

- Fixed a problem where the FFG's AI helo had its loadout restored when a saved game was loaded. Also, fixed the buoy waypoint list so that a loaded game gives correct waypoint count.

Now is that all of the fixes? No, absolutely not... There are many changes to the code that have to be verified and tested and will then be thoroughly tested by the BETA testers before ANYTHING is released.

So before you exclaim that your most disliked bug is missing from that list (my top ones are the "Screen Flicker" and the "Music Stutter" bugs, personally), please give us the benefit of the doubt to continue to work and potentially secure some fuding from our new publishing partner.

- Jamie

[Kapitan]

at least we got something

[Jamie]

I'll try to respond to everyone's comments above...

Perhaps I mispoke, all I ask from the community (as I always have) is to remain positive... You are certainly entitled to hate SA, or to boycott the rest of our titles, but in the end how will that help your cause? My point was that the new customers who are thinking about taking a chance on the retail version of DW will come into this EXCELLENT community and immediately sense an air of negativity and choose not to purchase the game. Why? Is that what the community as a whole wants, For customers not to purchase a game like to DW? If that is what you want, then there's no point in you reading the rest... Just move on to the next post.

Now, many you are unhappy with DW as it is in v1.01 and you have voiced these concerns. I've PERSONALLY taken note of all of them and if it is possible we will address them as we can. Since everyone else is being honest in this thread, but I have ALWAYS taken the path of professionalism in the past - perhaps it's my turn to say what I think for a change... won't this be exciting! :o

In response to Skybird, I am not taking for granted the intelligence of this community. As a matter of fact, it is without a doubt one of the most intelligent communities I've had the pleasure to participate in... you guys miss absolutely NOTHING (you are as perceptive a bunch as anyone out there)! There is no doubt of that.

However, one concept that some of you refuse to grasp is that we're in the business of making games, and simulation games are not selling well... by any measure. We are trying our VERY best to maximize our earnings on an investment that will most likely never be recouped. That's the harsh business reality that I have to deal with everyday. There's the potential that I (or other members on the team) will not be around for our 5th game because of DW... That's just business... If we're going to be honest, then I should be allowed that privilege, should I not?

So, we are trying to be intelligent about how we go about the patching process to keep costs down, to work diligently on our time, and to make the game the best that we can with the resource we have available to us (i.e. very little). To respond to Boomer, of course it's not YOUR FAULT that the game has issues, I never said that! There just comes a time where the expense of correcting every issue in a simulation as complex as DW is entirely cost prohibitive. Everyone has a job, everyone has to make difficult decisions in their job as painful as they be... We do too.

If you enjoy our games and want to support us through these difficult times, then we would greatly appreciate that support. However, I would never ask you to not voice your opinion in these forums... and so if you are upset about DW, or perhaps you truly hate the decisions that SA has made following the release of DW then you are certainly encouraged to voice that distaste.

I just don't understand why there is such disgust with me and my company. We worked very hard to release a game which many consider to be a leap-forward in the simulation space (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/917994.asp) and furthers the concept of combined-arms ASW warfare... But that isn't worth your time and money? How about your support, it doesn't deserve that?

As we worked on this game (in 2003 and 2004) the climate of the simulation space and PC gaming in general changed DRASTICALLY. So we were faced with decisions:- Are we to cancel the game given that the potential sales forecast would not accomodate the expended costs?
- Are we to charge a huge amount of money to capitilize off of the hardcore simulation crowd (many FAR LESSER games than DW go for $80-$100 or more)?
- If we do release it, should we cut costs by not releasing a full printed manual?We didn't do ANY of those things. We charged a reasonable price of $45 for the basic version (equivalent to SC) and $55 to have a printed manual.

Yet when I frequent Subsim these days (when I can, I'm trying my best to help work with our team and to keep us moving and in business) I have a sense that we are being faulted for releasing the product at all... Why are we being ridiculed for this decision?

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that the vocal minority of people who have purchased DW is what the new buyer sees in this forum (we did sell thousands of copies after all, yet I don't see more than a couple dozen people post in here regularly). You guys are DW's first impression, so to speak. You are free to do with that power, whatever you choose. But I'd ask that you instead focus on the FUN parts of DW and to help those new to the simulation learn how much fun DW can be for them as well (with time, and some hard work)...

Sure, I'm defending SA and I'm defending DW... I think we made a superior product that is worth the price we asked for it. There are things I can do in this game that I cannot do in any other simulation, and I'm very proud of it (as are "many" of the BETA testers too, I think - they did excellent work).

As we move into this new stage of DW's life, I'd hope that you would all be as optimistic about DW's future as I am... We've worked TOO HARD on this project for it not to continue, despite what you may think. :cry:

[2019]

Don't worry Jamie.
In my eyes DW is a much more superiour product over sh3.
It's worth every penny and it's great pleasure to play it.
The loading times are short so i can play it even if i have ten minutes left before i go to my work. :up:

[Bellman]

'He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of a sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.'

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner.

'That willing suspension of disbelief for the moment,
which constitutes poetic faith.'

Samuel Taylor Coleridge.

[Jamie]

'He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of a sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.'

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner.

'That willing suspension of disbelief for the moment,
which constitutes poetic faith.'

Samuel Taylor Coleridge.

No need to be sadder, Bellman (although wiser is always good).

Please just bear with us and even "root for us" in this endeavour as it will have a great bearing on our future. With your support we certainly have a good chance, I feel.

Thank you for the poetic faith (I think? I was a Computer Science major, so English Lit. was not my best subject... :cool:)

[Bellman]

You have my wholehearted support Jamie.

Thanks for responding - on a bad day !!

I always say - 'Americans deliver'

I know you will ! :up:

[mike_espo]

Thanks Jamie! :D Good to hear from you.

I am extatic at the Kilo being looked at! Great news! :up: :rock:

[Snakeeyes]

DW was definitely ready to be released. It really is a leap forward in sea-going sims.

Now... T-72 Balkans on Fire... ugh... that was a game that died on the freakin' table. You guys want to talk about bugs and low support!

If the patch takes a while then so be it...

[TLAM Strike]

Jamie I’m a dev on several freeware mods and add-ons so I know just how you’re feeling. Everyone wants an update; a screen shot or the damn finished project and all this time your trying to meet your deadline. Just because everyone is so negative don’t forget there are lots of people here who support you and understand what it takes to make a releasable product that will satisfy the masses not to mention yourselves (who can be the harshest critics at times). A day, a month, a year, I know V1.02 will be out. :yep:

[Skybird]

I understand your points, Jamie, and take the initial statement of yours that started the angry replies as an unfortunate mishappening then. ;)

You referred to potential customers coming here and beeing scared away. Well, I am not deep enough in DW after just some days to judge if that would be justified, and in the other thread ten days ago or so (before it became personal) I did not critizise the marketing and business option that you guys have choosen - I described just the results and tried some answers why DW is not as well-accepted despite beeing known to far more gamers than you seem to think. IT IS a well-known title, my impression is, it just happens not to fit the taste of the masses, no matter what kind of marketing you choosed. In this thread here me and some others got a bit angry not because of that, but because of the long waiting for the fixes to some issues that in recent months have been described again and again, that had been listed again in recent days, and that to some degree I have witnessed myself now, and after half a year are still there. This simply should not be, what would you say if we have taken your game - and after half a year still owe you let'S say ten dollars of the price you demand? And some of us start to have fears that it might become a long wait like it was back then in 2002, with SC108. I cannot - by all fairness - wholeheartly recommend a game any longer (and I did quite some marketing in your favour, believe me, when talking with friends, I described their reason not to buy in the other thread), if the customer support in terms of fixing remaining issues is of that kind that relations with customers are stretched to their limits, time-wise. You already have lost some of the die-hards here, others - like me - are (or were :) ) hesitant to buy for exactly and no other reason than right this: support in term of ultralong patching times. Call it your way of business-doing or marketing or whatever, but realize that it causes consequences. DW is already fighting against a lacking interest of the wide audience. It is also struggling because many people remember the long timetables in sonalysts patch-deliveries. This I do not mean to rant, this i point out as a simple objective observation.

You ran 98 meters, now zip down the remaining 2 meters to finish the race instead of picnic on the racetrack. I often got asked "Does it have issues?" and if I did not wanted to lie to freinds or buddies I had to answer: "Yes, by far not as many as F4 on release, but some that people take notice of." If I could have answered that question with a simple: "No, nothing worth to be mentioned", than maybe it would have won you this or that additional customer.

[Skybird]

. A day, a month, a year, I know V1.02 will be out. :yep:

Probably, but a year is completely unacceptable. Free modding projects may last that time, projects by the community - but not patching by the producer of a product people are expected to spend money for.

[Amizaur]

I still believe in DW and hope it will become much better after one or two more patches. It is also great for modding IF all the game engine issues will be fixed. I'm staying positive and think it's a great game - only IMO not entirely finished yet. But it will be, right ? So everything would be fine :-) All I wanted to ask was some feedback about what bugs are acknowledged and in the queue and what are already fixed (and you presented a list of them, great!). Then I would know for example that by working out this or other bug and presenting detailed description of the problem, sometimes even with suggestions how to fix it (if possible i.e. not game engine bug) then it would help you to work on and fix those issues. To not spend my time on bugs that you have already fixed. For example, do you see the problem with doctrine language interpreter, some commands not working in Init phase or at all ? Or should I work some more and send you more detailed description with examples of working and not working command combinations ? But then again, after this feedback would be needed - was the description good, have been problem recreated now ?
Would be very helpful to have somwhere a list of acknowledged bugs, that you confirm you know of. There could be second list of bugs already fixed (something you already posted, but it will be changing with time). Of course there is a patch suggestions thread, but we have no idea how many of things posted there you have actually classified as a bug, and bug which need fixing and will be worked on.
I report a bug, but later HAVE NO IDEA if it had been recreated, if it had been classified as a bug or maybe not, and in fact - if this have been read at all !! At least few words - yes, we have read this and see the problem. I hope it's not too much. Best would be list of acknowledged, worked on bugs and already fixed bugs, but if not then at least few words of comment and feedback to people that reported a bug. That's all I ask for. I'm sorry if I repeated myself, edited this post few times before sending....

[Fish]

Instead of having fun with a GREAT game, some can only whine about "bugs". There game is dust heaping.
It is therefore interesting to see how multiplayers cope with the kilo sonar bug. They don't whine but find ways to fully explore the game, and have fun. And fun they have! :up:


We (the Seawolves) still have 688(I) players, old and and new ones, but SC is dead from the day we had DW as a game for multiplay.
That, in my opinion speaks for it selfs.

[JamesT73J]

We (the Seawolves) still have 688(I) players, old and and new ones, but SC is dead from the day we had DW as a game for multiplay.
That, in my opinion speaks for it selfs.

I have to agree. Fundamentally, I think that DW works, and that it's a great game.

We have to face the reality that we just have to get on with it. Sonalysts have just joined the ranks of every niche software developer out there, in the realisation that they will not get a pat on the back from any forum communities. That's a sad reality.

It's also a sad reality that we have to get behind SA, or quit - this is the only way things will be improved, at the final count, in it's finished state, it is value for money.

Bought the game yet, Skybird?

[Neutrino 123]

Thanks for the list, Jamie. I'm glad to know a few of the annoying ones have already been sorted out. :sunny:

[DivingWind]

Now, when Jamie answered I can whait for the patch untill the end of time.
Subsimers,Rome wasnt built in a day,same with DW, it needs time.It will (without a doubt) evolve into something great and unbeatable, one way or the other ;)

This game is unique. It's uncomparable to any uder sub sims. If someone is still hesitating BUY it now without any fares !

[Syxx_Killer]

I guess I don't know my modern stuff that well, but I know it enough to know this game is top notch. I guess since I don't know my modern weapons that well, I find myself having fun with the game rather than yammering about bugs and patches. This game is so deep and technical, of course there will be a bug or two. I guess basically what I'm saying is, I like the game and will try and do my part to recommend it to prospective commanders. :yep:

[jlab]

thanks for responding here jamie.

i know some will disagree with me, but i think many of the people here, the ones who actually paid for DW, would actually HAVE paid more. i'm not sure it would have made that much of a difference, considering the real numbers of purchasers involved, but anyway... if one considers the actual $s per hour of great play that you can get from a superior game/sim like DW, it turns out to be incredibly cheap in comparison to almost any other form of entertainment.

i am looking forward to a patch, and i'm glad to hear y'all are still working on it. keep up the good work.

and yeah guys, lets try to keep it positive about this stuff. any gamer that nows shizzit about sims knows that DW is beyond compare even as it stand right now.

[Skybird]

Bought the game yet, Skybird?

As I already said on Monday or Tuesday - yes, from a friend's brother who visited me over the weekend and who was NOT too happy with it, he knows more about the database than I do and found the SCX data to be far more sophisticated. He went back to SCX. I have no bad consciousness for buying second hand. The copy had produced income for sonalysts, and I have payed him 50 euros for it, which roughly equals the dollar price.

Hey, I even alraedy hailed the great manual! ;)

[Boomer Ang]

I will abandon for sure SA theories and games in the future, don't blame for this , it's a personal decision.

What I care to highlight anyway is that in these last 7/8 years I had the pleasure to meet here several good friends with whom I had lot of amazing time talking about sub games and whatever made us having good time talking each other.

Just like it happens in real life I also found some men with whom I had hard discussions anyway I appreciated also this side of the community because it is , and above all it has never been made of fake men but real ones with I enjoyed to talk with and I am proud to have been a member of this community.

As you certainly are seeing I am writing directly here instead of a copy and paste from a corrected blue-print of Wordpad therefore my logical thoughts are not very organized anyway who knows me since years have surelly understood what I am meaning.

I won't come back here to bad talking about DW, now it has no more importance for me but the temptation to greet my old friends ( and why not even some old " enemies " ) sooner or later will prevale so I'll be back sometimes to talk with the great Skybird, remembering also huge Tomasew ( huge in terms of sympathy and skillness not about the weight of course ) every old men like Mcarm, Te Kaha ,Jtseed , Ramius I stop here otherwise I'll forget few instead of dozens....

Sure, cheers even to Oleg ( did you finally find out which is the key to push to turn the pc on ? ) , Furia and every old enemy I had here...I had a lot ,now that I am recalling :- )

Cheers

Boomer

P.S: please don't cry :D

[Skybird]

"The great"...? :-j I like the sound of that... :lol: I decided for that reason that I would miss you if you should leave for too long :rotfl: Why not heading over to the general forum instead, spending more time over there? ;) The discussion there are not less tricky than here :lol:

[PeriscopeDepth]

The only reason that I have not posted a patch update to this point is that many of the fixes are still up in the air and need to be tested for play balancing... If you would like a minimal list of sorts, then here:

- The STADIMETERS on all 4 subs now remember which platform was selected last time when a player re-enters the screen. Also, the list is circular.

- Kilo BB sound cheat was removed.

- Kilo speed bug (where speed increased to 18 knots when diving and ordering ahead 2/3) was fixed.

- The speed lock buttons were changed to behave like Sub Command. That means that they stay locked when autocrew TMA is on or off AND the player can still enter speed, course, bearing and range values even with the locks on. Autocrew was taught to honor the locks as he generates a solution.

- The way that the sub TMA's handle manual solutions was improved AND manual solutions can now be handled for the first time by the FFG TMA.

- A bug where the acoustic displays stopped displaying data from either helo's buoys when the sync'd helo was changed was fixed.

- Corrected a test in the sensor logic that could have failed incorrectly. (This was incidental and not related to any known bug)


- Corrected the speed vs OS noise bug in the submarines ("Sound vs. Speed" fix).

- Corrected a problem with the FFG Towed Array Save Game function which caused loaded gamaes to ignore changes in the contact list.

- Fixed a problem where the FFG's AI helo had its loadout restored when a saved game was loaded. Also, fixed the buoy waypoint list so that a loaded game gives correct waypoint count.

Now is that all of the fixes? No, absolutely not... There are many changes to the code that have to be verified and tested and will then be thoroughly tested by the BETA testers before ANYTHING is released.

So before you exclaim that your most disliked bug is missing from that list (my top ones are the "Screen Flicker" and the "Music Stutter" bugs, personally), please give us the benefit of the doubt to continue to work and potentially secure some fuding from our new publishing partner.

- Jamie

Thank you, sir.

Edit: Oh, and I'm sitting in HL now if anyone's game. :)

[Hellcat]

Thank you Jamie, it means a lot that a rep has responded concerning this issue directly.

On a side note I recently purchased Rainbow Six: 3 and quickly discovered that the modding community had died a quick death due to ubisoft clamping down on any potential modding by not releasing a planned SDK.. :nope: Now not really a good comparison to our current situation however at least you guys are at the table and willing to discuss issues with us. :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

DW is the best modern warfare subsim out there--it's also the only one. No company has made a new nuke subsim since Sierra made Fast Attack in 1997. I hope a few guys don't kill the entire genre with obsessive nit-picking. :hulk:

[Sea Demon]

Thanks for the reponse Jamie. :up: Count me in as a very satisfied customer of DW.(And other products you developed as well).

I understand what Xabba's intention was in starting this thread. It seems to be a respectful "how ya' doin'" and "what's going on" type of thread. I'm actually glad he brought it up. I was wondering myself how you folks at Sonalysts were doing with 1.02. But I'm just speechless how the people who seem to show nothing but dissatisfaction(and they happen to be the loudest to boot :shifty: ) tend to come to these threads and destroy the original intent with " I want, I demand, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme......ad nauseaum. Then they proceed to threaten boycotts and other childish drama. You people at Sonalysts have made it perfectly clear (to me at least) that DW IS NOT abandonware.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that some of these "unhappy people" would have alot more fun playing Dangerous Waters if they weren't looking for reasons to hate it.

Sea Demon

[bradclark1]

DW is the best modern warfare subsim out there--it's also the only one. No company has made a new nuke subsim since Sierra made Fast Attack in 1997. I hope a few guys don't kill the entire genre with obsessive nit-picking. :hulk:

Obsessive nit-picking? How about some support from the company?
This community is like mushrooms. Kept in the dark and shoveled some crap every now and then.
Support works both ways. I've only seen it one way, the community to company. When did this game come out and what support has been given?
Then SA has the nerve to say "be positive". Are we still supposed to be positive in 2006?

Brad

[OlegM]

DW is the best modern warfare subsim out there--it's also the only one. No company has made a new nuke subsim since Sierra made Fast Attack in 1997. I hope a few guys don't kill the entire genre with obsessive nit-picking. :hulk:

LOL re obsessive nitpicking... amen to that Neal :rock:

O.

[Onkel Neal]

Obsessive nit-picking? How about some support from the company?
This community is like mushrooms. Kept in the dark and shoveled some crap every now and then.
Support works both ways. I've only seen it one way, the community to company. When did this game come out and what support has been given?
Then SA has the nerve to say "be positive". Are we still supposed to be positive in 2006?

Brad

Brad, Sonalysts have been very informative and active in this forum, mate. They post here frequently. But we should accept that they cannot give all the information we want all the time. I think we are expecting too much (yes, there is such a thing ;) ). Lol, I remember when we would hear from the game companies once a quarter... be patient, my friend.

Yeah, they are saying "be positive" when people start talking about boycotting. They are the only company making this type of game, are we going to be positive in 2010 when we are still remembering the days when Sonalysts made commercially available subsims? It sure could happen.

[bradclark1]

I think we are expecting too much (yes, there is such a thing )
I beg to differ mate. :) Expecting a patch after a year is not expecting too much.

[Pigfish]

Any news would be good.

Quoting myself. :roll:

I'm thankful for Jamie's honest responses. I look beyond the negativity in some of the posts and look at it as nothing but good news, patch wise anyway. I for one hope they sell a zillion copys once gone retail. :yep:

Keep up the good work SA. For me SC and DW have easily kept me addicted for 3 years+ and counting. No other game has done that. For any one with any interest in modern, accurate naval combat simulation there is no second choice.

:cool: :cool:

[Bellman]

:sunny: Nicely put Pigfish. I second that.

Neal has posted some links to some very appropriate stuff - 'Necessary reading: the Final Dive'

Hits home to those of us (me included) who bellyache for submarine perfection. :lol:

PS. Like the new Sig Pig :|\

[Pigfish]

Its actually an old sig. But as I have been driving a Seawolf in DW the last month or so it seemed time to go back.

I read Neals post and was gonna post "hey, this is a naval sim" but then his point 'clicked' in. An excellent, well timed post I think. :up:

As I mentioned Jamies reply to me is positive. We have been reaffirmed there WILL be a patch. Of coarse we will all want more, especially me being a pig. :-j

Now if only Thomasew would ring in and give some good news. I know he promised a DWX a long time ago but he sure has been off the map for a long time. :(

And how the heck to get Jsteed to cheer up. :hmm: :-j

[LuftWolf]

Jamie, thank you. :up:

Speaking for myself, I would have paid $80-140, depending on the day, for DW+v1.01+something resembling the next version of me and amizaur's mod. Perhaps, if you had gone that way after releasing DW Pro, you could have released a retail version with no FFG or Orion, DW Light or something like that, and sold it for $55.95 at your local retailer. :88)

I think that a better model if you aim to solidify a hardcore community, but then again, I'm just a partially-trained psychologist and no nothing of marketing. ;) :-j

All joking aside, DW has taken a significant amount of my time away from other gaming, much to the detriment of other relationships I have online and brought me here. So, being honest, I think it's a potentially historic game that could be around for a long time to come.

Thank you for releasing DW and for continuing to support it! :rock:

Cheers,
David

PS Tell your bosses that the people at EB can wait. ;)

[Soulchaser]

Well, so SA is still alive. good to know

thanks for sharing that information with us jamie.

[XabbaRus]

It was never my intention for this thread to turn into what it has.

I was just asking Jamie how things were going, not to criticise or nit-pick.

Maybe it shows a lack of foresight that I didn't stop to think that a simple thread with a request could become a monster especially considering the topic.

I still support Jamie and SCS and love the fact they haven't given up on DW. I also think brad and boomer's comments are unwarranted and unhelpful.

Next time I'll keep things to myself or ask via PM or e-mail.

[Captain Nemo]

It was never my intention for this thread to turn into what it has.

I was just asking Jamie how things were going, not to criticise or nit-pick.

Maybe it shows a lack of foresight that I didn't stop to think that a simple thread with a request could become a monster especially considering the topic.

I still support Jamie and SCS and love the fact they haven't given up on DW. I also think brad and boomer's comments are unwarranted and unhelpful.

Next time I'll keep things to myself or ask via PM or e-mail.

I don't think you need to worry too much. It was a fair enough question, which unfortunately attracted what some feel are unwelcome comments (at the end of the day people are entitled to their opinion). It has achieved what you, and I believe 99% of us wanted it to do, which is to get an update on what's happening regarding the next patch for DW. If you don't ask these type of questions of Jamie, I am sure someone else will.

Nemo

[bradclark1]

Brad, Sonalysts have been very informative and active in this forum, mate. They post here frequently.
Everything I said here is in regards to the patch. I should have been more specific. I don't even follow the DW forum anymore except for a browse through every couple of weeks and the only threads I am interested in is in regards to the patch. I don't care about anything else.
I'm sorry some people got their nickers in a twist over my comments and I could have been more elequent about the mushroom part but I still stand by them.

Brad

[Jamie]

Since Neal is posting some insightful reading, I will consolidate it to one quote from that SimHQ article (http://www.simhq.com/_air2/air_082a.html)...
" In essence, we drive away folks that might get into these games. We demand that all games not only approximate reality, but we insult and impugn anyone who doesn’t fly it that way. If a game comes out that doesn't conform to our view of reality or isn't totally ‘accurate’, we slam it to the point that people don't want to buy the thing."That last sentence is what I want to draw attention to. That is the power that I was speaking of before, and you guys can wield it to great effect if you choose to.

In the coming weeks I ask that you help us with these new buyers who we will be marketing to. If they enjoy their stay, perhaps they will buy DW because of Subsim's influence on them! With some luck, we may grow this forum significantly and that will benefit everyone, will it not? More people to sink in MP, so to speak... ;)

Of course everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, I just ask that you do it reponsibly and keep in mind the tremendous power that you wield. You are certainly more than welcome to ignore my request as well, that is what makes Internet forums what they are (the freedom to voice your opinion).

Xabba, your question was well intentioned and what I did was my very best to secure a retail deal so that we could fund DW additionally and to eventually make it the game everyone in this forum wants it to be.

Hopefully that will answers Xabba question, and we can put this to bed.

[DivingWind]

Amen.

[Sea Demon]

Since Neal is posting some insightful reading, I will consolidate it to one quote from that SimHQ article (http://www.simhq.com/_air2/air_082a.html)...
" In essence, we drive away folks that might get into these games. We demand that all games not only approximate reality, but we insult and impugn anyone who doesn’t fly it that way. If a game comes out that doesn't conform to our view of reality or isn't totally ‘accurate’, we slam it to the point that people don't want to buy the thing."That last sentence is what I want to draw attention to. That is the power that I was speaking of before, and you guys can wield it to great effect if you choose to.

In the coming weeks I ask that you help us with these new buyers who we will be marketing to.

You got my support Jamie. :up: Anyway, I'm not sure you read my post above Xabba. But I knew exactly why you posted. But I've noticed how certain complainers always hijack a thread where we just ask Sonalysts a simple question. And then the thread turns into "gimme, gimme, or I'm gonna boycott". And no, I'm not talking about you, Brad.

At any rate, Glad to see you post Jamie. Thanks for the info.

Sea Demon

[JamesT73J]

A friend of mine once said, "If you want to enjoy something, don't ever read about it on the internet." At the time, he was referring to sports, but it's true for just about anything.

That's an excellent article at SimHQ, and it rings true. A common trait of forums is how hostile they are toward the very thing they are trying to celebrate. Subsim is (generally) very well-mannered, and a good read. This board will never, ever be as unpleasant as the official forum of a WWII flightsim that focuses on the Eastern front and Pacific, or the unofficial board for a well known jet flightsim that has recently been re-released.

The problem is, the happy customers rarely have much to say, because they are playing the game and enjoying it. The unhappy ones, however, can't shut up, and any legitimate concerns end up being washed away in the rhetoric.

[bradclark1]

And no, I'm not talking about you, Brad.


Phew!! :D

[Krasch]

Jamie is absolutley right about the forums. I also enjoy Napoleon era games and rely heavily on various forums before I buy one, most Napoleon games just don't come close so for me the forums and research before I buy is a must. DW is the same way for most people who have just recreation intrest in the game. SA had me with JANES 688 and will have me fore ever. Of all the software companies out there no one puts their heatrs into a project like SA. And I have used that to sell the game to others, the fact that SA makes real stuff for the NAVY, it just cant get any more realistic. That being said games are not their "day job" so bear with and give them the support they need and maybe, just maybe we all can revitalize the simulation genre.

Peace,
Krasch

[Onkel Neal]

Brad, I certainly not taking exception to your remarks, I just wanted to mention that Jamie and co. do maintain a footprint here. They don't report everything they're doing, but few companies do.

We subsim players and Sonalysts have a symbiotic relationship: they make them, we play them, and we both rely on the other for the hobby of nuke subsims. Thanks, guys, for hearing me out. :up:

[Pigfish]

I'm happy Jamie has replied but was thinking today its been a long time since we've had a lady around. I mean whatever happened to Renzie? :hmm:

Now I know she was a big part of the making of DW and hope she wasn't canned cuz sales weren't up to par. :-j :-j :-j

[OKO]

- The way that the sub TMA's handle manual solutions was improved AND manual solutions can now be handled for the first time by the FFG TMA.


@Jamie :

well, I understand the fix for the FFG TMA (TA LOB are just 5 miles long at this time and you probably talking about new 10 miles LOB for her)

but what will you change on sub manual TMA ??
I find it very efficient and interesting at this time, with very nice features, like beam wander effects, the need to not change depth/speed/course during measurement (LOB recording), but I really don't see what you will change here (there was no discussion about this with beta tester)

can you give some information concerning this aspect please, Jamie ?
thanks

I hope you won't degrade this great sub TMA modelisation to make it easier ! Just because it is actually the most interesting feature of this simulation !

[OneShot]

Well, maybe im in the Minority here, but I'm a pretty satisfied customer! DW is a great game and I will continue to play it and try to help along others who are interested. For starters I'm planning on extending the OWTOP to include Helos and after that maybe jump deeper into the complexity of the FFG. Yep, this game has a few bugs ... so what ? It works for me, I'm happy and once I have the time again I will spend more time playing it. Bottom line - count me in to help the next/new generation of DW players (lets call em retailers :D ) along.

Cheers

[Mercedes]

Although i'm not a heavy gamer I do tend to like trying out new release demos and wotnot. The thing is most games come and go and rarely does one stick around on my computer for more than a week till it's removed.

The only game that has ever stayed on my hdd is the DW demo then DW full version. I still think the game is right on the money in regards to the direction that SA took it. The sad thing is that navy sims have gone by the wayside in popularity in the last 5-7 years, hence the lagging sales for DW. Which, of course, means that they will more likely allocate less then desired resources towards further development.

As Jamie has indicated the patch is in the works and will be released, although perhaps not as soon as they liked if the market had been healthier and allowed the game to keep a higher priority in the work load. I think what he was getting at in regards to 'being positive' is to appreciate what has actually been achieved in the creation of this sim and to also be confident in the fact that it hasn't been cast off and abandoned. First impressions go along way and new comers reading some of the threads in this forum might get the impression that the game is a lemon by some of the gloom and doom stories that have been thrown about. I think most can agree the core game is great. The issues it still has ARE solvable.

What I hope they do is release the patch before the retail release so not as many new comers will catch a whiff of the negativity towards the outstanding issues in the forums and be put off playing/purchasing.

[Renzie]

I'm happy Jamie has replied but was thinking today its been a long time since we've had a lady around. I mean whatever happened to Renzie? :hmm:


Now I know she was a big part of the making of DW and hope she wasn't canned cuz sales weren't up to par. :-j :-j :-j


I wasn't canned, but I was shipped off to another project for the time being. I really miss working on DW and working with you guys in the forum. I hope that I get to come back and play soon.

Thanks,
Renzie

[Sea Demon]

Well, maybe im in the Minority here, but I'm a pretty satisfied customer! DW is a great game

No OneShot. You are in the Majority for sure. Most people here love DW and have no huge complaints. We just have a very vocal Minority, that's all. I guess us in the Majority need to speak up. And we can't let the whiners hijack our threads with irritating demands. They can start a "whiners" thread if they want IMHO. I'm happy with DW to. :up:

Sea Demon

[Pigfish]

I'm happy Jamie has replied but was thinking today its been a long time since we've had a lady around. I mean whatever happened to Renzie? :hmm:


Now I know she was a big part of the making of DW and hope she wasn't canned cuz sales weren't up to par. :-j :-j :-j


I wasn't canned, but I was shipped off to another project for the time being. I really miss working on DW and working with you guys in the forum. I hope that I get to come back and play soon.

Thanks,
Renzie

:cool: I knew you weren't "canned" Renzie. I was kind of 'fishing' with that post to see if you were still out there. Hope to see you back on a regular basis soon working on making DW an even better game then it is. :up:

[elcid]

Here's one more satisfied customer.. and i'm in no hurry for a patch cause i'm just taking my good old time simply learning the basics. I'm with OneShot.

OneShot, good to hear you're planning more updates to the OWTOP. I've just got it all printed out and I'm reading it now. Thanks. Do you mean that you have plans to create a similar document for the FFG? If so that would be great.

Keep up the good work SA. Thank you for a great game ... i mean sim. You guys have my support.


:) :up:

[Bellman]

I am optimistic that DW will go from strength to strength.

As has been said, that means getting behind SA 100% - to this end I have committed by removing SC/SCX from my hard drive.

The game is where new players arrive and where the most MP fun is taking place. That is DW not SC/SCX !

LuftAm have restored my faith which was starting to flag. :|\

There is much to look forward to and we are a small community which must stick together and not fragment.

Heres to the DW future. :up: