Why does RuB make the Greeks part of the Axis?

[Iceberg]

I just sunk a Greek cargo in my career just to get the bad surprise that it was an Axis ship!! Were the Greeks really part of the Axis in WWII?

I started looking around and when I compared the stock DefSide.cfg file with the one from RuB 1.43 I discovered that from 1941-04-23 until the end of the war, the Greeks are part of the Axis!

From the looks of it, it seems to come from the Ops Mod inside RuB with a description of change being pretty much: too many to list.

And since with RuB you don't have a blue icon on the map to warn you that the ship is part of the Axis, a note in the readme file would have been really nice about the change of allegiance.

Anyways, for the RuB users who didn't know: be cautious with the Greeks!

SH3 is so much better with RuB (except maybe the fatigue thing which I changed back ;) )and I thank everybody who worked on it. I just wish I had been warned about that!

Now I gonna go through the whole file and see if anybody else has decided to switch sides!! ;)

Cheers,

Iceberg

[Beery]

From April 1941 to November 1944 Greece was occupied by Germany. Although, as an occupied power it was technically not part of the Axis, it would not have been a good idea for German U-boats to sink Greek ships after April 1941 - bad for propaganda, creates a breeding ground for partisans, etc.

I'll see if I can do something about making it more obvious who is friend or foe for the next RUb version.

[Iceberg]

Thanks Beery. I thought it might have been for that reason but then I was wondering why Norwegian ships were still considered to be with the allies?

Maybe they fled to England before the invasion?

Anyways, I've looked at the file and noted the few differences. I shouldn't get caught sinking the wrong ship anymore. :up:

Iceberg

[Iceberg]

OK I checked the file again and I think I may have found a bug/typo.

These are the definition of allegiance:
; side 0 - neutral
; side 1 - allies
; side 2 - axis

And the following are the entry for Greece.
It goes from Neutral to Allies to Axis to Axis (again)
Shouldn't the last one be Allies? (after november '44)

[SideEntry 44]
Country=Greece
Side=0
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19401027

[SideEntry 45]
Country=Greece
Side=1
StartDate=19401028
EndDate=19410422

[SideEntry 46]
Country=Greece
Side=2
StartDate=19410423
EndDate=19441101

[SideEntry 47]
Country=Greece
Side=2
StartDate=19441102
EndDate=19451231


Iceberg

[Beery]

Yes it should. I expect that error crept in with the Ops mod. I just checked it out myself a few minutes ago and changed it for RUb 1.44. I also added the info to the en/de_help.txt files. I wish I had more time to check out all this stuff, as I'm sure I could find more of these niggly-naggly (but important) details that need adjusting. If you find any more please let me know.

[Iceberg]

:up:

You would have to postpone the release of 1.44 in order to check everything. ;) I'm sure there are a bunch of guys in Romania that are smiling right now and know exactly how it feels!! :lol:

If I find anything else I'll be sure to let you know. :up:


Iceberg

[joea]

Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships? What were your sources? Sorry I am a bit sceptical what about Dutch, Norwegian Danish ships were they also off limits?

[U-Schultz]

"Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships?"

I'm going to guess it depends on the location of the Greek ship? In greek waters or near England?

I go to U-boat.net all the time and peruse the daily sinkings/activities page. I don't have the numbers but the sinking of Greek ships by u-boats is mentioned all the time. Guess I should use the "location of sinking" feature more.

[Beery]

Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships? What were your sources? Sorry I am a bit sceptical what about Dutch, Norwegian Danish ships were they also off limits?

I very much doubt that even the Nazis would be stupid enough to sink ships that were under their country's protection.

[AG124]

About Norwegan ships - I have heard that the vast majority of the Norwegan merchant fleet (along with a couple of old destroyers and submarines) escaped to the UK and continued to serve the Allied cause, so it would make sense for them to still be Allied after their nation's occupation.

[joea]

Was this official BdU policy to not sink Greek ships? What were your sources? Sorry I am a bit sceptical what about Dutch, Norwegian Danish ships were they also off limits?

I very much doubt that even the Nazis would be stupid enough to sink ships that were under their country's protection.

"Protection?" Well, call it that or occupation...and yes I know that the situation veried in the various countries. I still want to find proof. I'll get back to you all.

[Happy Times]

About Norwegan ships - I have heard that the vast majority of the Norwegan merchant fleet (along with a couple of old destroyers and submarines) escaped to the UK and continued to serve the Allied cause, so it would make sense for them to still be Allied after their nation's occupation. Right,and if you havet hem in a convoy they are fair game.It should be fixed that you get negative renown for sinking them :damn:

[Beery]

I just checked Norway. It's correct. Neutral until Spring 1940, then Allied for the rest of the war.

[Beery]

"Protection?" Well, call it that or occupation...

Well, after a country is occupied, the occupying country looks at that country as under the protection of the occupier. Take modern day Iraq for example: the American Navy doesn't go around sinking every Iraqi ship it comes across - that would be very stupid indeed.

[jaxa]

"Protection?" Well, call it that or occupation...

Well, after a country is occupied, the occupying country looks at that country as under the protection of the occupier. Take modern day Iraq for example: the American Navy doesn't go around sinking every Iraqi ship it comes across - that would be very stupid indeed.

Beery, I'm not agree with you. How can you tell that occupied country is under protection of the occupier? During IIWW Poland was under German occupation, many of Poles died in KLs and in public executions. Is this "protection"? It was brutal invasion and extermination. Greece wasn't under "protection" of Germany, it was occupation.

[U-214]

Maybe i can be of some help here.The bulk of the greek navy that wasn't sunk during the war,by initiative of their crews refused fo surrender and fled to Egypt.The same was done by cadets of the 3 weapons (airforce,navy and army),that formed greek units under British command.

The airforce officers,formed bombers and fighters squadrons:
http://koti.welho.com/msolanak/13helengl.html
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=248068&messageid=1125784914&lp=1125847689

The army officers formed the "sacred band",part of the British SAS also in Egypt,trainned by Stirling himself (the founder of SAS) and after the war returned to Greece and formed the special forces team that corresponds to the US Rangers (LOK-Company of Mountainous Raiders).That is also the reason that this unit has almost the same badge with the SAS one and as moto the British one (who dares wins) in its greek translation.(the badge can be seen in the medals link below).

The navy officers served in their warships usually as convoy escorts.
http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/listing.html?navy=RHS

The more numerous ships,where though cargo ships.Today Greek merchant ships represent 50% of EU's tonnage and 18% of world tonnage.I don't know how many were at the time ,but certainly were many.Those that weren't in greek ports when Athens fell ,never returned to Greece,and followed the example of their warship colleguaes.

Obviously,such ships were targeted by the Germans,as said here:
Hundreds of Greek merchant ships were lost to German submarine attacks.
http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lect18.htm

The greek merchants were targeted by Hitler actually even before the declaration of war to Greece(April 1941),because they were helping Britain :
On 1st January, 1940, the German U-boat Command, acting on the instructions of Hitler, ordered U-boats to attack all Greek merchant ships in the zone surrounding the British Isles which was banned by the United States to its own ships and also merchant ships of every nationality in the limited area of the Bristol Channel.
http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/nsdap/Donitz.html



And a more specific episode:
1944
As in World War I, only one verified German submarine atrocity is on record. In March 1944, U-boat commander Heinz Eck, on his first combat mission, ordered his crew to kill all survivors of the Greek merchant steamer Peleos and to try to pulverize all floating wreckage with hand grenades. His motive: to hide the sinking from patrolling aircraft and thus conceal his own presence in the area. Three survivors later testified in a post-war trial; Eck and two of his officers, who claimed they were only "following orders," were convicted and executed.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/hist1939.html


The ships that remained captured were those that were mainly in Piraeus harbour when Athens fell and were confiscated by the Germans or Italians.Of course they wouldn't sink those.Most probably,these ships were sailing German or Italian flag too (or only) ,just like today,a ship that sails into a country's national waters has to put that country's flag in addition to the flag of ownership of the ship.Of course in the game,we can't have such fine tuning...

Here are the medals awarded during WWII and if you read the text,you ll see some of them were awarded to merchant ship crews too:
http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/eng/39greece.html


In my opinion,in the game,i think Greek ships should be considered hostile to the Germans.Specially considering that the greek units that escaped to Egypt,continued to fight under greek flag and markings (see the links above) and their real goverment (the King) had also fled to Alexandria.The probable swastika or italian flag flying alongside the greek one,in my opinion,cancels the greek nationality from that ship,that in facts becomes an occupied German/italian owned ship.Moreover,as a Greek,i feel it as an insult to have greek ships appearing as part of the axis,from the moment that not only Greeks continued the war outside Greece,but also inside with a very large and active resistance movement,that paid with many lives of innocent civillians that were killed as "punishment" for the resistance activities.Greece had less than 8mln population at the time,yet the numbers speak for themselves:

This is from Wikipedia

Table of resistance groups
Group name Political affiliation Estimated peak membership
Ethnikos Dimokratikos Ellinikos Syndesmos (EDES) military anti-communist, Venizelist, republican 14,000
Ethniki Kai Koinoniki Apeleftherosis (EKKA) anti-communist, Venizelist, republican 1,000
Ethniko Apeleftherotiko Metopo (ΕΑΜ) & Ethnikos Laikos Apeleftherotikos Stratos (ELAS) Communist group affiliated with the KKE — EAM was the civilian branch, ELAS the military wing 50,000 armed guerillias, 500,000 civilian*

* It is estimated that almost 2 million people cooperated with EAM or its sister ELAS - branches of the most powerful resistance group - at some point in resistance to the German occupation, without becoming actual members of the organizations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Resistance

Regards

[Beery]

The question is, what percentage of Greek merchant ships fled Greece? The ratio of Greek merchant ships as a percentage of EU commerce today is completely immaterial. The fact that 'many' Greek merchants fled Greece at the time of the invasion is too vague. 'Many' is not a number, and it can be misleading. We need a percentage, or at least a reliable source that tells us that 'most' (not just 'many') Greek merchants escaped the Nazis.

What happened to Greek merchants before the invasion is also irrelevant. We need to know what the German attitude to Greek merchants AFTER the invasion. Of course, if Greek ships were aiding the Allies before the invasion, they would be targeted by the Germans. That is not unusual, nor does it tell us anything about Greek ship traffic after the invasion.

Similarly, one episode of a German U-boat targeting a Greek merchant ship during the occupation is not compelling evidence of a systematic targeting of Greek ships. The Germans also torpedoed US ships before the US joined the war, but that doesn't mean that the Nazi High Command wanted American ships to be attacked.

Medals awarded to merchantmen are similarly irrelevant. In a situation where Greece was at various times neutral, occupied, fighting a partisan war, and officially allied to the Allies, such things are bound to happen.

What happened to the Greek Navy and Army is also irrelevant to the matter at hand. What we're talking about is merchant ships.

The fact that Greeks feel it's an insult that Greek ships appear as part of the Axis forces is completely irrelevant. What matters is whether the majority of Greek ships actually sailed while being safeguarded from U-boat attack. Your feelings, although important, have nothing to do with the issue of historical accuracy.

What it comes down to is this: if I am to make all Greek merchant ships neutral or Allied, but never Axis-controlled, I need more than the arguments you've provided. I need evidence that at least 51% of Greek merchant ships escaped from the Nazi occupation, or I need evidence that the policy of the German Ubootwaffe was to sink Greek ships during the occupation. If I don't have either of those things, I have to assume that Greek merchant ships worked their trade mostly under Nazi occupation, and under the protection of the Nazis. That's not the same as saying the Greek merchant sailors were Nazis themselves. After all, many partisans fought the Nazis while working under Nazi occupation and whose livelihoods were under the protection of the Nazi government.

[U-214]

My lad,the most part of ANY merchant fleet at any given time is mostly OUT of its country's national waters at any given time,because of the very nature of its business(This must also be the reason why the Norwegian merchant navy wasn't caught).This makes it more probable that they weren't caught by the Germans.Is this a proof?No,it is an assumption.After all,yours is an assumption too.Do YOU have proof that most were caught by the Germans?Uboat net says they helped a lot during the war.One of the above links speaks of hundreds sunk..Maybe Uboat net has more details on ships sunk,i don't have the time to search it.I brought up that incident of 1944 as indicative,to show that U-boats apparently did shoot at Greek ships,which is another hint (while we have no opposite proof,but an assumption).

Another hint i have found :

There were 450 merchant ships owned by Greeks before W.W. II. Out of those Aristotle said 410 were sunk during the war. The official count was 360.

http://www.whale.to/b/hitler.html

Of course you are free to do your own historical accuracy as you wish.Fortunately,history isn't written in forums by gamers.I just thought to join the discussion and help to the issue.

Regards

P.S:Although you might think most of what i wrote as irrelevant,i think it might be not,when a country still has an exile goverment and assets still flying the national flags and markings.I would consider THAT the true greek gov and navy/army/airforce and not the ones under a swastika.The next in order after the King that could be considered as legitimate chief of the Greek state,was the PM,who though shot his brains when the Germans were at the outskirts of Athens.So even legally,when captured ships were confiscated,they passed automatically to Italian and German ownership and i wouldn't consider that part of the greek navy anylonger.What i know is that they left alone fishboats.For the rest,i don't even know if there was even greek flag(or only greek) on the confiscated ships.Do you?

[CWorth]

This shows that Greek ships were indeed attacked by German Uboats.Choose Greek in the countries area.

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants


118 Greek Merchants sunk(520,069 tons)
4 Greek Merchants damaged(18,569 tons)

[CB..]

if willing there is a hint towarsd a interesting compromise regarding the flags and greek vessels...perhaps a percentage of greek ships after the occupation could be designated as italian and or german (carrying the italian and german flags) those in the med perhaps --thos greek ships travelling out side the med could continue to carry the greek flag and be still considered targets..

this makes life a little more interesting and adds flavour to the situation as the war progresses in game..bound to be some inconsitencys regarding some routes that pass in and out of the med (for solo merchants)
these might account for some small level resistance traffic/smuggling etc..

any thing is better than a debate about realism when gameplay is in the end the issue..mind you having said that-- it's not a hard job to alter the campaign to accomodate this idea and in the end those that do the work on any given mod have the natural precendence on the intepretation of how best to achieve the desired effect...

that's why in the end i allways cringe when i hear the words "realism mod" when refering to a simulation..it's allways open to intepretation...rather that the campaign is well balanced gameplay wise and works well within the context it is meant to achieve..

in this case
changing nationality and side of the greek traffic in the med (a search thru the RND file with word pad would reveal these quickly) at the appropiate dates would differentiate between occupied and "confiscated" greek merchants and those still operating under some form of free greek or allied ownership


and if one can type a thread in a forum one can equally well alter the campaign RND file to achieve ones personal desired results with a little advice and study of the forums archives and some patience for studying the game files...most relevant ones are readable in plain english with notepad and or word pad)

[joea]

I think CB might be on the right track with a caveat. First off sorry if I gave the impression I was "offended"..sure I questioend Beery's use of the term "protection" but anyway. Look, u-boats did not patrol looking for allied shipping among the Greek islands or the Agean sea for example. Local traffic like ferries and stuff was just that and was probably used by the Germans. In the game we don't do patrols there anway. Any Greek ship outside the med should be fair game, Cworth found info to prove it from a very reliable source. U-214 made some good points too (I would not consider the link U-214 provided as a good source however).

We need to find out if any Greek ships are in the Med, I would suggest changing Greek single ship traffic in the med to Italian or German...and leave any Greek ships in med convoys as Greek and thus legitimate targets.

[U-214]

I would suggest changing Greek single ship traffic in the med to Italian or German...and leave any Greek ships in med convoys as Greek and thus legitimate targets.

I agree on this as well also to the previous poster that said that obviously U-boots didn't search for allied targets inside the Aegean where most of the traffic ,if not all,was controlled by the axis.

The greek free merchants did partecipate in med convoys and thus were obviously targeted by the Germans.

So the solution proposed appears adeguate.And excuse the passionate replies ,but this is the first time i have seen a classification of greek navy among the axis,and having some relation to it and the army,i thought i couldn't let pass such a thing without comment even if it's just a games forum.Some things are difficult to find in the internet to prove,but all Greeks with some years on their back(sigh) and some history knowledge know that many Greek sailors died in those ships,so if not else,it was my duty to defend their memory.Unfortunately, some children today learn history from PC games,so i decided to post...So,now i think i will let you enjoy the game as you wish.

Regards

P.S:@CWorth

Thank you my friend for the link.It is actually common sense.Greece didn't collapse in a day.Many ships were sunk in air bombings of Piraeus while still docked.When it was obvious that the Germans couldn't be held (at Thermopylae there was the last line of defence),already the warships started leaving for Egypt.Logically many greek ship owners did the same for their ships and radioed those at sea away from Greece not to return to Greece.That's how the Greek ships ended up in allied convoys.After all,even if we bypass national pride,a ship owner had interest in "saving" his ship by sending it to a US/Canadian/British harbour than waiting for the Germans to confiscate it and lose its property and thus his money forever.For the same reason i immagine you see Norway and Netherlands in the same link with ships sunk by Uboats.

[joea]

So U-214 I take it you are Greek or of Greek heritage? I am Greek-Canadian myself. :D Thank you for your input.

[U-214]

Geia su patrioti!Yes,i m Greek,although i am not in Greece currently for job reasons.

[Shadow9216]

Would they have even been allowed to fly a Greek flag? After occupation, the Nazis forbade displays of nationalism, including flying the national colors, playing the national anthem, etc.

[jaxa]

U-214 - very good reply :up:
I never heard that Greece was satellite of Germany during WW2 :o . It is a complete false. I don't understand why Beery thinks different. It makes RUb unrealistic in this case and should be correct.

[joea]

Geia su patrioti!Yes,i m Greek,although i am not in Greece currently for job reasons.

Cool, geia su! I may say again afaristo for your participation!

[joea]

Here a first answer from a pretty knowledgable poster on u-boat net.

http://uboat.net/forum/read.php?f=3&i=41084&t=41084#reply_41084

[U-214]

U-214 - very good reply
I never heard that Greece was satellite of Germany during WW2

In deed,during WWII Greece lost 10% of her population between war,famine(winter 1941) and resistance.But being a small country often its history isn't known,so it is understandable.Greece before WWII had a rather pro-British pubblic sentiment,because of the King (related to the British Royals) and the partecipation of Greece in WWI with the Entente and a practically dictator as PM with pro-fascist ideology (Metaxas).Nevertheless he maintained neutrality.When in October 1940 the Italians asked him to allow the passage of Italian troops to Greece,although pro-fascist (and probably because of the national sentiment) he did his duty and replied "well,then it's war".Greece repelled the Italians and chased them into Albania and then the Germans came in April to bail Mussolini out invading Greece from Yugoslavia and Bulgaria.The Greek army had almost all reserves engaged to the Albanian front and so the front couldn't hold the Germans long.After the occupation the things are those that i said before.So,no,despite the Metaxas' ideological affinity to fascism,Greece was at no point a satellite of Germany in WWII.As for the reason that the greek shipping was braking the german attempted blockade on Britain since 1940,this has to do probably more with interests of the Greek ship owners that traditionally were seing Britain as an excellent point of operation for northern Europe (the "anti-Piraeus",in fact even today London is full of greek shipping companies headquarters),so having to chose between the 2,they chose to take the risk and help the British trade,with the hope that Britain would hold and eventually prevail.After the occupation of Greece,of course,they had even bigger interest to put their ships into allied convoys,since the "home-Greece" had to be liberated and them get back to regular business.The less rich Greeks had more patriotic motives of course,such as the officers and military academy cadets that fled to Egypt (like Poles that did the same going to Britain ,since i see you 're from Poland) or started resistance.

Cool, geia su! I may say again afaristo for your participation!

No need for thanks(efharisto) patrioti!It was the least i could do.My father lived the occupation and has told me what exactly meant.Italians and Germans could simply grab anything (confiscate) and in a second you were losing your property.In my father's family this happened to their house too (fortunately they had a smaller one too to which they moved).Whether it was house,horse,car,ship or...a watermelon,it wasn't yours anymore.

Here a first answer from a pretty knowledgable poster on u-boat net.

http://uboat.net/forum/read.php?f=3&i=41084&t=41084#reply_41084

Thank you for the link my friend.

[joea]

Ok then, "efharisto" patrioti. (Need to work on my Greek :oops: and its transliteration). So, can we expect this will be corrected in the next RuB? It seems that with what evidence we have (number of Greek ships sunk throughout the war) plus evidence (albeit non academic) about the nature of the occupation and the practise of Greek shippers.

[jaxa]

U-214 - I know history of brave Greek nation during WW2, we fought together at the same side :up:
Did you hear about Jerzy Iwanow-Szajnowicz? He was Polish, his step-father Jan Lambriandis was Greek. He lived in Warsaw (Poland) and Thesaloniki, studied in Belgium (where he was academic master of swimming). He spoke English, Russian, French, German and Greek of course. In September 1939 he stayed in Greece and helped Polish fugitives. In 1941 he wanted to enter to Polish Army in Palestina, but finally he became English agent of SOE (Special Operations Executive). In October 1941 he was in Greece again, where he was leader of intelligence group and spies as Kiriakos Paryssis. Three times he was captured by Gestapo, two times he escaped. In March 1942 he sank U-133 in base (as a result of magnetic mines) and some ships in Pireus and Faros and destroyed many planes at airbases. In Korinthos base he laid under magnetic mine in U-372 (U-372 was forced to emergency surface by this fact and destroyed by English). In September 1942 he was betrayed and captured. He was killed in 4 January 1943 during escape by SS-man.
J. Iwanow-Szajnowicz was respected as national Greek hero, in Thesaloniki you can see his monument.

[U-214]

Well,impressive knowledge you have jaxa!I knew about him,but didn't remember his complete polish name(i knew him as "Ivanof") nor knew all the episodes you 've mentioned.I had read about the sinking of U-133 at Skaramanga (today it's still a shipyard there building warships),but didn't know all the story.Thank you.Great man.

[jaxa]

Yes, it was Skaramanga base.

[joea]

Beery check your PM got some information. Real good stuff. :know: