Cloning Library

[stljeffbb1]

Hi everyone.....an idea occured to me today.....

Would it be possible to set up a clone library that would have a stock version cloned parts from the game (ships, airplanes, guns, etc) that could then be altered by users?

Just a thought, because why re-invent the wheel if its already been done....it seems like cloning is the hardest part when it comes to making new equipment. I will be happy to contribute once I learn how to clone objects!

:damn:

-Jeff

[iambecomelife]

That's an excellent idea. I think you'd also need to create a manual explaining how to insert the cloned parts into an existing model.

[BUMP]

[AG124]

Would an idea like this work? If every model has its own ID, and the clone of the model had a different ID, wouldn't every new model made from the clone downloaded from the library have the same ID, and thus be incompatible with each other?

For example, lets suppose the clone library contained a clone of the small tanker. The cloned tanker would have a different ID strand than the original and would not overwrite it (as Serbuto's two merchants do not overwrite the Commerce Raider and Merchant Cruiser). But if the tanker was downloaded by two different people, and used to make two new merchants, wouldn't the two new ships both contain the revised ID and caused a CTD if used together? (There have been posts that have indicated problems of CTD's and overwriting models) Or would changing the model itself be sufficient to create an independent new ship? I am probably making mistakes here in this analysis.

This library does seem like a good idea however, and I am sure there is a way for someone to make it work. If anyone actually has the time and desire to do this, it would at least speed up the process of making new ships - more warships and merchants really are needed for the game.

[stljeffbb1]

it would at least speed up the process of making new ships - more warships and merchants really are needed for the game.

Yeah it probably would......however, there seem to be quite a few new models springing up....

...wouldn't every new model made from the clone downloaded from the library have the same ID, and thus be incompatible with each other?


Unfortunately, I don't know enough about this yet, but I would guess that if the ID's are changed, unless someone hits the lottery, no two ID's should be alike.....but it is a guess....perhaps the problems you describe are not unlike animal cloning where it seems that the cloned article has a degrading of the DNA (which, IIRC, is why cloned animals often don't live as long).....he he...perhaps I should try to do some more reading on the subject....

Also, I will have some quality time this weekend to tinker with cloning.....I'll see if I can learn the basics in about 12 hours.

Concerning time....my idea would be just stock parts....once they are cloned, all someone would have to do is store them and file them, and then put them in an order that is easily accessable...probably a little larger than it seems, but I'm also guessing that the amount of things cloned are still somewhat small.....I could be wrong there, too!

:hmm:

-Jeff

[AG124]

If the library contained parts, this would probably work. I hope so anyway - maybe I could learn some hex editing if I could get past the cloning as well (cloning a ship seems to be a problem for many).

You mentioned that a lot of models have been created lately. These are the ones I have heard of:

Warships:

-Southampton class CL (British) - This one is excellent.
-Type 7 DD (Russian) - This one is under construction by Sergbuto, but hasn't yet been finished.
-K class CL (German) - Although it is a good ship, the forward funnel and the superstructure aren't accurate and look too much like the Southampton.
-US BB (Unsure of Class - North Carolina?) - Still looks like the KGV - no 16" main guns in game to use.
-Atlanta class CL (US) - This model looks very similar to the actual class, but hasn't yet been finished.
-Sao Paulo class BB (Brasil) - An interesting ship to add to the game, and with some changes to the tripods, it should accurate as well.
- Hood class Battlecruiser (British) - Doesn't look exactly like the Hood, but I doubt the parts (including a suitable hull) are available to make a more accurate one anyway.

Merchants:

Large Cargo - A clone of the German Commerce Raider, changed to serve as a freighter. The only actual feature of the model I don't like is its awkward looking funnel - it looks like a dummy funnel set up to change the ship's silhouette to avoid identification as a raider (maybe this is what it was intended to look like originally). It is also a little too big - I reduced the tonnage to 11,200 and someone else did so to 11,600 (although these tonnages are still unusually large for a WW2 freighter).

Transport - A clone of the British Auxiliary Cruiser. An excellent ship to add to the game, one of the best looking merchant ships in SH3 IMO. An extra troopship was needed anyway, as only two came with SH3 originally.

If I am forgetting any, please let me know.

[Shadow9216]

Travinski has added Russian warships and a new tanker, but I'm not sure if they interfere with other mods or not.

[stljeffbb1]

Sao Paulo class BB (Brasil)

It's in its very early stages yet! :D :oops:

Sure, I'm able to do more or less what I want on a copy of SH3 that I use for tinkering around, but I still need to learn how to clone so it may be used by others.....

Nonetheless, I've been able to change how the guns in the main turrets look by sinking them in a little bit....a little better reflects the length and look of the 12" turret

An interesting bit too, the fact that Brasil was an Allied member starting in 1942....even though the Minas Gerais / Sao Paulo were outdated, it would be fun to sink 'em!

:|\

-Jeff

[Type941]

if 2 funnels can be stuck on Bismarck from rodney or kgv - it would make Hood look better than it is now. funnel number is the best thing to do when recreating siluhette, as well as turrets of course.

The thing that's important for this type of mods is to enable each new ship use its OWN skin - this way, i can make a more or less accurate skin and make resemblance better (like porthole numbers, color, etc..)

[AG124]

The Russian ships are not compatible with the originals, because they have the same ID's (at least that's what I've heard). They also have a problem that some other new models have - they have not been changed much from the original model and look almost identical.

As for other new ships, Cdr Gibs is working on a whale factory, which will be made from a T3. I would really like to see a whale factory in the game, although I always assumed that the large cargo would provide a better hull.

I think that a list should be made to contain all of the ships which we need for the game which can be reasonably made with hex editing (especially some more merchants). At least they could be a stopgap measure until the SDK or an expansion is released.

[iambecomelife]

The Russian ships are not compatible with the originals, because they have the same ID's (at least that's what I've heard). They also have a problem that some other new models have - they have not been changed much from the original model and look almost identical.

As for other new ships, Cdr Gibs is working on a whale factory, which will be made from a T3. I would really like to see a whale factory in the game, although I always assumed that the large cargo would provide a better hull.

I think that a list should be made to contain all of the ships which we need for the game which can be reasonably made with hex editing (especially some more merchants). At least they could be a stopgap measure until the SDK or an expansion is released.

Interesting. Do you have a link to any posts about it? I am creating a factory ship myself, but the project is stalled because of a backlog of mods in production.

[AG124]

Since links sometimes do not work on this forum (at least they don;t fo me), I'll just tell you where to find the post - it's at the beginning of page 2 of the thread "Cruiser hitpoints to weak." There are also a couple of his finished models there, but they can't be added to the game because Ubisoft has not released the SDK. On another SH3 forum I have posted on, another group has been working on some more ships (mainly Italian surface warships and mini-subs), but they have the same problem. Which, of course, is why hex editing is a good option right now.

Tell me more about the whale factory you are making - which ship is it made from, and what will it look like? I can't actually remember ever seeing a picture of a WW2 era whale factory. We also need, among others;
- A ~4500 ton freighter
- Using the hull of the small tanker, or the small merchant?
- Other parts of various freighters.
- A ~6000 freighter,
- Using the hull of the C2?
- Using various superstructure parts, including possibly the bridge of the Transport/Auxiliary Cruiser?
- A ~8500 ton tanker,
- Using the hull of the T2?
- I don't know what superstructure to use. Maybe the Transport bridge again, and some different masts/cranes and a different funnel?
- And a ~9000 ton passenger vessel.
- Similar to the SS Chatham and SS Dorchester.
- Made from the hull and superstrucure of the Troop Transport, combined possibly with the superstructure of the C2? Maybe this wouldn't work though...

Just trying to put some ideas on the table - I don't know if any of this would work.

[iambecomelife]

Since links sometimes do not work on this forum (at least they don;t fo me), I'll just tell you where to find the post - it's at the beginning of page 2 of the thread "Cruiser hitpoints to weak." There are also a couple of his finished models there, but they can't be added to the game because Ubisoft has not released the SDK. On another SH3 forum I have posted on, another group has been working on some more ships (mainly Italian surface warships and mini-subs), but they have the same problem. Which, of course, is why hex editing is a good option right now.

Tell me more about the whale factory you are making - which ship is it made from, and what will it look like? I can't actually remember ever seeing a picture of a WW2 era whale factory. We also need, among others;
- A ~4500 ton freighter
- Using the hull of the small tanker, or the small merchant?
- Other parts of various freighters.
- A ~6000 freighter,
- Using the hull of the C2?
- Using various superstructure parts, including possibly the bridge of the Transport/Auxiliary Cruiser?
- A ~8500 ton tanker,
- Using the hull of the T2?
- I don't know what superstructure to use. Maybe the Transport bridge again, and some different masts/cranes and a different funnel?
- And a ~9000 ton passenger vessel.
- Similar to the SS Chatham and SS Dorchester.
- Made from the hull and superstrucure of the Troop Transport, combined possibly with the superstructure of the C2? Maybe this wouldn't work though...

Just trying to put some ideas on the table - I don't know if any of this would work.





My parent unit is the T-3 tanker. I have "originalized" many of the ID's but many more remain. My basic plan is simple - move the midships deckhouse closer to the bow, add a small deckhouse to the middle of the deck, and add a second funnel, moving the existing funnel so that they are abreast. Someone said it was easy to move ship's parts around, but I was not able to do so. I'll give it another whirl one of these days. There should be a stern ramp, but that's impossible without the SDK :roll: . Whale factory ships didn't have to be any particular shape (some looked exactly like conventional freighters) but that's the "classic" look for them.

BTW, there definitely is a need for many new ships of the types you mentioned. I know that many people find destroyers and battleships more glamorous, but in actuality U-boats were responsible for targeting merchant shipping, not warships.


http://uboat.net/allies/ships/photos/nw/kosmos_II.jpg

http://uboat.net/allies/ships/photos/br/empire_heritage.jpg

http://www.xs4all.nl/~beejee/TRAAN-01.jpg

http://www.xs4all.nl/~beejee/southvent-004.jpg

[stljeffbb1]

Hi everyone....glad to see this thread is generating discussion!

Is anyone interested in hosting a web site that would hold the library files?

If not, then I'll be happy to get a website and host files :up:

-Jeff

[AG124]

Concerning the ramp on the stern of the whale factories - Although you cannot add a ramp, you could modify the textures to make the appearance of one (it's better than nothing, in my opinion). I hope you can find out how to move the parts soon.

Another unusual (although probably useless) type of merchant ship I would like to see added are the two bauxite carriers bought by Canada from the US - the Nereus and Proteus. They were WWI era, and were sister ships to the famous SS Cyclops that 'disappeared' in the Bermuda Triangle in 1919 and also the SS Jupiter, which became the US Navy's first CV in the 1920s (USS Langley CV 01). They were 19,000 tons, and had a kind of skeleton structure of cranes along their entire length. The bridge was raised off the deck ("on stilts" as one book put it) and two funnels were located alongside each other, as one the whale factories. Both ships vanished without a trace in 1941 - they probably broke in two near the stern in heavy weather. There are many more important ships to make, but these were still cool looking (or at least different looking).

I was looking through some of my WW2 books, and saw another freighter that could be easy to make - the SS Ocean Vagabond. If someone cloned a Liberty ships, moved the superstructure forward and repositioned the masts, it would be suitable. I believe the ship was one of the Ocean class freighters built for the UK as an equivelent of the US Liberty class, but I'm not sure.

By the way, is there a good site to view WW2 merchant pictures? Someone mentioned a couple earlier, but I don't know where the thread is now. And if someone could link to a picture of the Nereus or Proteus, that would be great (I have never had luck posting pictures on a forum).

[iambecomelife]

Concerning the ramp on the stern of the whale factories - Although you cannot add a ramp, you could modify the textures to make the appearance of one (it's better than nothing, in my opinion). I hope you can find out how to move the parts soon.

Another unusual (although probably useless) type of merchant ship I would like to see added are the two bauxite carriers bought by Canada from the US - the Nereus and Proteus. They were WWI era, and were sister ships to the famous SS Cyclops that 'disappeared' in the Bermuda Triangle in 1919 and also the SS Jupiter, which became the US Navy's first CV in the 1920s (USS Langley CV 01). They were 19,000 tons, and had a kind of skeleton structure of cranes along their entire length. The bridge was raised off the deck ("on stilts" as one book put it) and two funnels were located alongside each other, as one the whale factories. Both ships vanished without a trace in 1941 - they probably broke in two near the stern in heavy weather. There are many more important ships to make, but these were still cool looking (or at least different looking).

I was looking through some of my WW2 books, and saw another freighter that could be easy to make - the SS Ocean Vagabond. If someone cloned a Liberty ships, moved the superstructure forward and repositioned the masts, it would be suitable. I believe the ship was one of the Ocean class freighters built for the UK as an equivelent of the US Liberty class, but I'm not sure.

By the way, is there a good site to view WW2 merchant pictures? Someone mentioned a couple earlier, but I don't know where the thread is now. And if someone could link to a picture of the Nereus or Proteus, that would be great (I have never had luck posting pictures on a forum).

You know, I toyed with the idea of adding a collier or bulk cargo ship, but I have my hands full with several mods already; the whole process of cloning is so time consuming. I'm pretty interested in merchant design, and I always thought the Cyclops looked weird - what with all those spidery cranes sticking up. The bridge seemed to be really sparse, too. I wouldn't call her ugly, though; maybe "unique".

Anyway, the best source for WWI-era merchant pics that I know of is uboat.net's "ships hit by uboats" section. Most of the ships don't have photos but a significant %age do. The pics are a cross section of typical 1910-1940's-era designs - lots of midships-deckhouse freighters and two-superstructure tankers.

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/

[AG124]

Great site - anyone who has a look at some of these ships (or views any good WW2 book on the Battle of the Atlantic) can see that several of the ships included iin the stock roster aren't that accurate). I actually like the T2 tanker - it looks like a general tanker to me, although the T3 looks too modern.

BTW - It's probably irrelevant, but after looking at pictures of the Nereus and Proteus today, it appearsthat they only had one funnel, not two. I was sure I had seen a picture of the Cyclops with twin funnels though, maybe the others were rebuilt after WWI?

[iambecomelife]

The Cyclops definitely had two funnels. I don't have a link handy but I've seen pics of her from two angles clearly showing them. I know that several warships had refits done to reduce the number of funnels, so maybe that happened with those two civilian ships.

BTW, I actually feel that the t-2 from Silent Hunter II looks better than the current one. The model for the current one DOES simulate generic tankers well, but it just seems to be rushed/unfinished. Plus, it repeats textures badly, even for a merchant model; if you've downloaded my Merchant Variety Pack (link below) you'll notice that none of the skins for the T-2 have funnel logos because of this issue.

[AG124]

You're right, here's a picture.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/n10000/n13451.jpg

I can't find pictures of the Nereus and Proteus online, but they actually look a lot different anyway - Their bridges were thicker and taller, they seemed to have more booms/cranes, and of course, they had only one funnel (which seems to have been offset to starboard). Maybe I'll scan in and post their pictures sometime, but that's probably against someone's copyright.

As for the rest of the ships in SH3, someone once said that there were very few realistic ones and that better ones were needed. This is what I think of the merchants in the game:

Coastal and Small Merchants: Both of these appear to be typical 1920's or 1930's freighters.

C2 and C3 Freighter: Superstructures too modern in appearance, especially the C2. I have never seen a picture of an actual C3, but a real C2 didn't seem to have such a bulky superstructure anyway.

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/types.html?class=C-2+type

Liberty and Victory freighters: Liberty freighters are important to the game and are accurate looking. According to pictures which I've seen, though, Victory freighters had smaller superstructures. I still like them though.

Large Cargo: Too large, and with too large a funnel and bridge, but still interesting.

Small Tanker: Nothing wrong with this one, IMO.

T2 Tanker: A pretty good looking ship - I did notice that you didn't give any of them company names on the funnel though - too bad that the developers rushed a few things.

T3 Tanker: The brdge looks 1950s or 1960s to me.

Troop Transport: I personally do not like this model - The funnel looks squared and most troopships actually seemed to have been converted passenger liners with larger superstructures. I guess there were some like this though, although most that I have seen with an even remotely similar design had two funnels. Maybe someone can mod some new troopships?

"Passenger Liner": Again, looks like it was built in the couple of decades after the war - and why label it a passenger vessel instead of Heavy Troopship or something like that? I doubt that many British passenger vessels were being sent on leisure cruises to the Carribean with merry passengers in 1943...Some people on this forum refuse to sink these for understandible humanitarian reasons, but I have come with a solution - rename it a troop transport and consider it as such. Of course, there were some evacuating children from the UK to Canada, but only early in the war - by late 1941 you would have no worry.

Transport (Serg's) - One of the best ships in the game - looks exactly like a pre-WW2 passenger liner converted for troops.

Considering some of these points, I think we need a few new ships. There are many on that site you recommended which would make good reference models. These are some of the best IMO:

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1250.html

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/2356.html

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/2616.htm

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1188.htm

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1141.html

I also recommend the site as a good place to research WW2 merchants to anyone reading this.

I haven't had any luck making anything so far, but maybe if a cloning library was established, either myself or others could be at least one step closer.

BTW - I never got the skins you made for Serg's ships - do you have a link?

[stljeffbb1]

Oh man....great pic,,,,,but I'm guessing that one would be hard to make! :hmm:

-Jeff

[iambecomelife]

You're right, here's a picture.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/n10000/n13451.jpg

I can't find pictures of the Nereus and Proteus online, but they actually look a lot different anyway - Their bridges were thicker and taller, they seemed to have more booms/cranes, and of course, they had only one funnel (which seems to have been offset to starboard). Maybe I'll scan in and post their pictures sometime, but that's probably against someone's copyright.

As for the rest of the ships in SH3, someone once said that there were very few realistic ones and that better ones were needed. This is what I think of the merchants in the game:

Coastal and Small Merchants: Both of these appear to be typical 1920's or 1930's freighters.

C2 and C3 Freighter: Superstructures too modern in appearance, especially the C2. I have never seen a picture of an actual C3, but a real C2 didn't seem to have such a bulky superstructure anyway.

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/types.html?class=C-2+type

Liberty and Victory freighters: Liberty freighters are important to the game and are accurate looking. According to pictures which I've seen, though, Victory freighters had smaller superstructures. I still like them though.

Large Cargo: Too large, and with too large a funnel and bridge, but still interesting.

Small Tanker: Nothing wrong with this one, IMO.

T2 Tanker: A pretty good looking ship - I did notice that you didn't give any of them company names on the funnel though - too bad that the developers rushed a few things.

T3 Tanker: The brdge looks 1950s or 1960s to me.

Troop Transport: I personally do not like this model - The funnel looks squared and most troopships actually seemed to have been converted passenger liners with larger superstructures. I guess there were some like this though, although most that I have seen with an even remotely similar design had two funnels. Maybe someone can mod some new troopships?

"Passenger Liner": Again, looks like it was built in the couple of decades after the war - and why label it a passenger vessel instead of Heavy Troopship or something like that? I doubt that many British passenger vessels were being sent on leisure cruises to the Carribean with merry passengers in 1943...Some people on this forum refuse to sink these for understandible humanitarian reasons, but I have come with a solution - rename it a troop transport and consider it as such. Of course, there were some evacuating children from the UK to Canada, but only early in the war - by late 1941 you would have no worry.

Transport (Serg's) - One of the best ships in the game - looks exactly like a pre-WW2 passenger liner converted for troops.

Considering some of these points, I think we need a few new ships. There are many on that site you recommended which would make good reference models. These are some of the best IMO:

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1250.html

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/2356.html

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/2616.htm

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1188.htm

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/1141.html

I also recommend the site as a good place to research WW2 merchants to anyone reading this.

I haven't had any luck making anything so far, but maybe if a cloning library was established, either myself or others could be at least one step closer.

BTW - I never got the skins you made for Serg's ships - do you have a link?

The link below my mascot has the latest version of the MVP, including the new merchants. If you want the expansion pack alone, here it is:

http://rapidshare.de/files/3816933/MVPMI_incl_MVP_V1.0_V1.1___AddOn.7z.html

There are only civilian skins for the two ships included. Another expansion will have the camo skins.

[iambecomelife]

About the whole passenger liner controversy, I don't have that much of a problem with sinking them as long as they're enemy and not neutral - primarily since it wouldn't have been "in character" for a Uboat skipper to provoke the US (and his superiors) like that. Sinking enemy liners just doesn't seem to have been controversial. I read a book recently about survivors of the "Empress of Britain", and while they were sad to lose their ship few of them seemed to regard the attack as a war crime.

You've probably seen that pic of the MVP hospital ship. I almost didn't include it but then decided to let it stay and trust the MVP's users to swap out the skin by 1941 using the all-camo MVP Mid-Late War Edition. That way you won't get an armed Red Cross vessel.

[stljeffbb1]

Hi everyone....check out the cloning thread...I was able to clone a JU 87 using the instructions.....I suppose it is only fitting that this be the first object in the cloning library.....I'll have to sign up to get some free web hosting!

:up: :know:

-Jeff

[iambecomelife]

Hi everyone....check out the cloning thread...I was able to clone a JU 87 using the instructions.....I suppose it is only fitting that this be the first object in the cloning library.....I'll have to sign up to get some free web hosting!

:up: :know:

-Jeff

That's great news. If only we could select all ID's with a dedicated cloning program and automatically replace them with randomly-generated substitutes. That would make it easy for modders to create lots of new ships or planes that would have virtually no chance of conflicting with one another.

[stljeffbb1]

Hi iambecomelife....

If only we could select all ID's with a dedicated cloning program and automatically replace them with randomly-generated substitutes. That would make it easy for modders to create lots of new ships or planes that would have virtually no chance of conflicting with one another.

That is an AWESOME idea! :up:

I wish I knew more about Visual Basic....I would write a program myself....

I am changing the first two and last two bytes of each string, so the chances of duplication are I think 1 in 10000....not too likely...

-Jeff

[stljeffbb1]

Just added clone of B24 Liberator to cloning library.....I MIGHT have figured out where all of the string ID's are located, at the bottom of the .dat file....if I am right, it should make finding the ID's and cloning a whole lot easier!

:up:

-Jeff