Stupid questions about ... what I have read and studied.

[ReubenJames]

As I said before, after more than 2 years absent from the community, I need to revise many I have read before.

I still do not understand the meaning of the TMA instrument. The concept is to compute the range, speed and course of a track that is straight forward. Here is what I do not understand: the track is moving, how does the TMA work to lock-on to a track.

Using the 2D map, I can easily classify an unknown object as "hostile" thus allowing myself to assign it as a target to my weapons. So why do I have to go through the procedure to "classify" the target using "Hull/Conformal" sonar?

[SquidB]

Ok i think your talking about 2 different things here, If ive misunderstood forgive me.

TMA is a slow proccess of bringing different peices of information together in order to work out a targets course, speed and range.

To begin with you have one peice of information, its bearing. Depending on its distance you will be able to work out from NB traces exactly what it is you are picking up. Ie surface, sub, whatever. Also you may be able to work out from the NB excatly what class it is.

Now once you have that information, its best to classify this on the NAV map so you can keep a picture of what is going on.

Also once you have a contacts class (and a broadband source) you can perform speed analysis via your demon.

Having the speed of the contact greatly helps the TMA equation.

There are other ways of finding out a contacts ID. If you have a broadband trace, check the demon and count how many blades are showing (be careful if its a faint contact they might not all show). If they are pinging you with active you can get a rough idea of the class from the frequency displayed in active intercept. And finally you have ESM and Periscope.

So in answer to your question, contact identification goes something like this.

1) Try to work out a contacts Type and class from NB or any other availible sources.

2) Update the Nav map with the information you have at hand.

3) If you have the contacts class, perform demon to ascertain speed.

4) Refine TMA for a good solution.

Hope that helps.

[Zerogreat]

Using the 2D map, I can easily classify an unknown object as "hostile" thus allowing myself to assign it as a target to my weapons. So why do I have to go through the procedure to "classify" the target using "Hull/Conformal" sonar?

You dont have to... you can guess and shoot at everything, sinking all those neutral yachts and fishing boats.. if it is your desire ;)

[ReubenJames]

Using the 2D map, I can easily classify an unknown object as "hostile" thus allowing myself to assign it as a target to my weapons. So why do I have to go through the procedure to "classify" the target using "Hull/Conformal" sonar?

You dont have to... you can guess and shoot at everything, sinking all those neutral yachts and fishing boats.. if it is your desire ;)
That's why I am asking the above questions.

Sorry SquidB, I don't get all you have explained to me. What does NB stand for? I don't think in reality one will go to periscope depth for identification? That's for surface targets only isn't it?

I still do not understand the steps I am required to perform to complete an identification.

How many times I have to compute for a solution before I get a lock on to target? Does it automatically lock-on a target like in the air you lock on a target with just 1 click away?

By the way, do you guys remove AutoCrew every time you run a mission?

[Zerogreat]

Oooh this one wont be easy, it seems like you are somewhat...missing the whole point? :) (or I am missing yours :doh: ).

1) Ok, killing neutral ships is a bad bad thing, you will get penalized for that, sometimes it can even mean a mission failure, not to mention the poor helpless innocent /et cetera/ people there ;)

2) NB stands for Narrow Band, it is a type of sonar that allows target classification by its sound profile (distinct frequencies the target emits).

3) What you mean by "lock on to target"? Actually, torpedoes, unlike AA missiles do not lock onto their target before they are fired. They are simply launched in the target's direction, and at some point (their enable range) they activate their sonars, seeking for targets...if they find something, they will go after it.

[ReubenJames]

Zerogreat,

I just returned from a 2 hours "training" mission. No luck! :(

The most frustrating is that the "true" position of the track is far away from the contact(i.e. the yelow mask representation).

I retried 3 times, with random position of the target. At the beginning, it's always sweet that I could hear my FIRST contact and asked sonar to start the track. Luckily, I got the contact from the broadband Sphere sonar. That was a civilian Tanker. I went into the Sonar Demon but I do not know how to make things out. When I changed the civilian to a warship, a FFG actually, I don't get that distinct stripe from the broadband sonar, but instead I got contact information from the Active Intercept. That's fine as long as I can get a contact. But what confused me was that why contact information can be found in broadband sonar when it is a civilian ship whereas for a frigate, no information can be obtained from the broadband sonar?

[Fish]

THats because of the nois a tanker made, and a FFG don't. War ships are more made for silence. For that FFG, go to NB and scan the band for a 60 hrtz line.
It have to be within 10 nm I think.

[ReubenJames]

go to NB and scan the band for a 60 hrtz line.
It have to be within 10 nm I think.
I was just about to raise another questions. Nearly all documentation I am reading mention frequencies, and the range of frequencies each type of sonar is capable of handling.

Now tell me please, how much I need to know about frequencies? And what are they?

God, flying a fighter is much much easier!

[Zerogreat]

Now tell me please, how much I need to know about frequencies? And what are they?

My english is lacking to explain you what a frequency is.... eh.. high pitched noises are high frequency and low pitched noises are low frequency. For instance the ships/subs electrical system is 60 (USA) or 50 (Russia and otres) Hertz, which is low frequency... and that is best detectable by the towed array.

For the gameplay, each platform, when you look at it in NarrowBand station, emits i think 5 (it can be less, depends on the sensor used, distance etc.) distinct frequencies - they are depicted as lines. Now u use the database to list known platforms and their sonar profiles, and if you see the lines from database to match those you get from NB sonar, you have likely identified the target :)

The most frustrating is that the "true" position of the track is far away from the contact(i.e. the yelow mask representation).

That is, because when you assign a sonar tracker, it gives you only target's bearing, NOT range.... you have to use TMA to get target's range. But doing TMA is not actually easy, after years of playing subsims i learned it relatively good, but it is matter of time :)

[ReubenJames]

Oh, for Christ sake, then I have to remember all of the frequencies related to components of every vessels..? Now, I don't have that much memory in my mind. Besides, I run missions for simulation sake, I am expecting less serious experience. Is there an easier way?

So TMA is not reliable? It is error prone? OMG! What about the Sonar Demon? I take it that you can figure out quite much information for identification purpose using the various meters and instruments in there. HOW?

[Zerogreat]

No, you dont have to remember the frequencies, they are displayed in the NB station :) I will post a picture to explain what i mean :)

Sonar Demon is for getting target's speed. You ahve to identify the target first, the look into USNI database (in DW) and see its TPK (turns per knot) value. Most submarines have TPK of 7. Then in the Demon station, select the appriopriate contact (it must have a tracker assigned in broadband) and you will see waterfall of lines... enter the TPK value and align cursor wtih tle LEFTMOST line, and you will get target's speed :)

For TMA - its just a geometry :) If you know the targets speed enter it, and then try to place the "ruler" in such way that each tick on teh ruler is aligned with appropriate line ... you can also check the "dot stack" in top left corner. If all the little dots are on the line, your solution is probably correct. But if you dont know the target's speed there may be infinite solutions! In such case, change your course, and eventually then there will be only one (geometry, huh :) ).

[Zerogreat]

Here, the pictures should be pretty self explanatory, i think :)

http://zerogreat.wz.cz/NB1.jpg

http://zerogreat.wz.cz/NB2.jpg

[ReubenJames]

THANKS! Your great help is warmly appreciated. I shall get back to you after compilation of the information. It's very kind of you. :up:

[SquidB]

God, flying a fighter is much much easier!

Yep it is, because you have a window outside of the plane. ;)

Ive been a flightsim junkie for more than i care to remember. The thing about DW is that its a complex and rewarding sim that takes time to get used to.

Trust me it will make sense, and the feeling of accomplishment when you get a TMA solution right is great. Simply because you know youve done someting thats nigh on impossible.

Hang in there and DW will give your rewards by the bucket :sunny:

[ReubenJames]

Zerogreat,

I have to organize before I get back to you. First, very much thank you. Neither the SC nor the DW manuals provide such detailed example as to how to identify a contact. Other documentations don't provide information in such details.

This is the problem throughout the course of completing or learning from a mission. There are many tiny little things which even now, from you I know how to operate; I still don't know exactly what they are. Your effort is such keen that I am touched. Thanks once again.

Now here are my questions:

So, we always talking about frequencies, frequencies, they are actually a continuous "noise" from some sound sources. It could be a whale, it could be an earth quake or a hungry giant Octopussy do I understand it right?

Then like using one of our mixers or equalizers on our desktop or laptop, you can raise or lower one or more of the available frequencies to adjust the music output to suit our taste simply because they are a "noise" source. So the 5 frequencies that you detected in the example is somehow like music, right?

What I want to ask is that on the smaller NB display, roughly between bearing 0 and 90, there is a trough, does it correspond to that part of my boat which has no sonar coverage? Also, how do I tell from the pattern of the waves that there is a contact? Should a contact be found from the pattern, those frequencies will come out to the larger display?

Another question is about torpedo. After firing a torpedo, it actually goes unguided. We have to manage its direction so it goes towards the suspected target. Now if the target's true depth is say 300ft, but our torpedo was launch at 1,200ft, how does it know the target is 900ft above? How do we home-in a torpedo?

What are layers? Can we move between layers to hide ourselves or even evade from incoming torpedoes?

[ReubenJames]

God, flying a fighter is much much easier!

Yep it is, because you have a window outside of the plane. ;)

Ive been a flightsim junkie for more than i care to remember. The thing about DW is that its a complex and rewarding sim that takes time to get used to.

Trust me it will make sense, and the feeling of accomplishment when you get a TMA solution right is great. Simply because you know youve done someting thats nigh on impossible.

Hang in there and DW will give your rewards by the bucket :sunny:

In fact, I wonder why there are no windows in a sub? With a window, we can see each other. :-j

No, seriously. I wonder why there are no Infra-Red detector. Using InfraRed detector, we can still remain stealthy.

[Michiel de Ruyter]

Now here are my questions:

1) So, we always talking about frequencies, frequencies, they are actually a continuous "noise" from some sound sources. It could be a whale, it could be an earth quake or a hungry giant Octopussy do I understand it right?

2) Then like using one of our mixers or equalizers on our desktop or laptop, you can raise or lower one or more of the available frequencies to adjust the music output to suit our taste simply because they are a "noise" source. So the 5 frequencies that you detected in the example is somehow like music, right?

3) What I want to ask is that on the smaller NB display, roughly between bearing 0 and 90, there is a trough, does it correspond to that part of my boat which has no sonar coverage? Also, how do I tell from the pattern of the waves that there is a contact? Should a contact be found from the pattern, those frequencies will come out to the larger display?

4) Another question is about torpedo. After firing a torpedo, it actually goes unguided. We have to manage its direction so it goes towards the suspected target. Now if the target's true depth is say 300ft, but our torpedo was launch at 1,200ft, how does it know the target is 900ft above? How do we home-in a torpedo?

5) What are layers? Can we move between layers to hide ourselves or even evade from incoming torpedoes?

Hope nobody minds me butting in, but I'll take a stab at it. This'll partly repeat what's already been said by others, so please don't take offense.

Ad. 1+2) The noise any object makes is composed of several noises with their own frequency. Think of it as an orchestra, where the sound is made by a set of instruments all playing their own part and together making a sound that you recognize as Mahlers 9th (frequency BTW means how many oscillations per second a soundwave makes. Lower frequencies are low-pitch noises, higher ferquencies are higher-pitched noises)

In the BroadBand display all frequencies are listened to at once and the direction from which a noise is heard is displayed as the trace.

In NarrowBand, the noise is broken down into the frequencies that make up the noise (like unmixing a music tape and seperating the different instruments onto different tape tracks). Those frequencies are then displayed as separate lines in the NB display. The pattern of frequency-lines in the NB display is called the signature.

Every entity has it's own NB signature. You don't have to memorize them, their stored in the ships filter, which you can find in the NB screen. Match up the signature with a signature from the database and you have an identification.

In theory.

In practice, you will more often then not only see the first couple of lines of the signature. Lower freqs travel farther through water then do higher pitched noises. Depending on the distance and the noisiness of the contact you'll get one or more signature lines in NB.

Ad.3) The troughs do indeed correspond to the bearings where the ships hull in obscuring the sonar.

In the lower display of the NB, where the noise is displayed, you can recognize a contact as a peak rising above the background noise at a specific bearing (that particular display repeats the broadband signal, but in real time, not in a waterfall manner). Put the cursor over the peak and in the upper display you should see the freq-lines corresponding to the contact.

Ad. 4) Before the torpedo goes active it doesn't know where abouts the target is. You do (or you ought to, anyways). Usually you have a rough indication of the depth of the target (above or below the layer). Set the runout depth of the torpedo accordingly and it'll find the target when it goes active.

Ad.5) The temperature of the water isn't homogeneous. It changes with depth. The layer is a region of water where the watertemperature changes rather abruptly. Since the temperature of the water also determines the speed of sound through the water, such a sudden change of temperature also radically changes the path sound takes. In fact, the layer more often then not acts like a halfmirror radically reducing the volume of sound traveling through it.

So it is possible to hide on the opposite side of the layer to your target. He'll not be able to hear you as clearly. But you won't hear him as clearly either. It's like pilots hiding in a cloud: There's pros and cons in doing that.

For evading torpedos a layer is almost indispensable. But beware: It isn't a silver bullet. Ever since Sub Command Sonalysts have modelled the effects of watertemps a little more sophisticated then in 688i H/K. The effectiveness of the layer is really dependent on the rate of changes of the watertemperature. If the change is not very radical, the layer will let more sound through (in that case the layer is more like a slight haze then an actual cloud).

Ad. the TMA) I'm guessing you're playing with auto-crew for the TMA on? TMA isn't modelled as an automated system in DW. It's more like a bunch of guys drawing bearing lines from your OwnShips position to the contact every couple of minutes. They take their cues from the different sensors, which is represented by different colors of bearing lines. From those they try to figure out where the ship is, and with what speed it is traveling in which direction.

The problem is, though, that more often then not there's more then one solution that fits the data. If you have three bearing lines running almost parallel to each other a solution of 10nm/7knots is just as valid a solution as 15nm/10knots.

The trick is to manouvre your boat to obtain as much different data points as possible. This reduces the number of solutions untill ideally you have just one solution left. For instance: If you find your target is running roughly parallel to you (lead), try to make two tacks of a couple of minutes: One on a course corresponding to the last noted bearing line and one 30-45 degrees in an opposite direction of where the target is travelling. The information your TMA guys get from those is usually sufficient to workout the position, speed and course of the target accurately.

Ad. DEMON) The Demon 'demodulates' the noise the screw of a target ship makes. It's broken down into a lines for the rotating shaft and a number of lines corresponding to the blades of a screw. So having 6 lines in the DEMON means you're tracking a ship with a 5-bladed screw (that is also a piece of info you can use for identification purposes).

To work out the speed, you have to first have a rough identification. Then enter the TPK (= turns per knot) corresponding to the targets class (you can find this in the USNI database). Then you can put the cursor on the left most line (the shaft line) in the DEMON display and read off the speed of the target.

The accuracy of this obviously depends on the accuracy of your classification. But determining the speed of the target using the DEMON radically reduces the number of possible solutions, earning you the gratitude of your sweaty, stressed out TMA guys.

There's some excellent guides (both TopTorps TMA guide as TimmyG00s Tactical Manual) that I'd suggest you download and read. They explain all this a lot better then I ever could. You can find them over at Bills SubGuru site in the downloads section (http://www.subguru.com/downloads.html).

[Dr.Sid]

Yet once I feel important to say that in DW, layer effects are quite weak. There has to be very specific conditions to see any effect at all. To 'loose contact' due to depth change is possible only on the border of detection range. You definitelly won't evade torpedo because of the layer. Being on the other side of the layer can delay detection and classification a bit, but again, it takes place only at the detection range border. When they shoot at you, you are much closer and layer can be ignored.

In DW much more important factor is surface noise. It masks contacts. For beter sonar reception go as deep as possible, especially with high seas. In most conditions deep sonobuoys gives better results than shallow ones. I think this is because of surface noise.

This is how it works in DW. I don't know how it works in real.

[Zerogreat]

Another question is about torpedo. After firing a torpedo, it actually goes unguided. We have to manage its direction so it goes towards the suspected target. Now if the target's true depth is say 300ft, but our torpedo was launch at 1,200ft, how does it know the target is 900ft above? How do we home-in a torpedo?

So, as was said, the layer effect is very small in DW, so the depth where we fire the torpedo has almost no effect on its ability to detect the target. And how does it know the depth of the target? Well... it just does know it :) Its sonar has ability to detect target bearing both horizontally and vertically, i suppose :)

[ReubenJames]

Another question is about torpedo. After firing a torpedo, it actually goes unguided. We have to manage its direction so it goes towards the suspected target. Now if the target's true depth is say 300ft, but our torpedo was launch at 1,200ft, how does it know the target is 900ft above? How do we home-in a torpedo?

So, as was said, the layer effect is very small in DW, so the depth where we fire the torpedo has almost no effect on its ability to detect the target. And how does it know the depth of the target? Well... it just does know it :) Its sonar has ability to detect target bearing both horizontally and vertically, i suppose :)
In all honesty, I know absolutely nothing about operating the layer instrument. I read somewhere about this tactic, so I just asked the question.

But about torpedo, I am still very unsure about it. What is the difference between firing it SNAPSHOT and assigning a contact to it? I find there is no difference. By the way, do you steer the torpedo? For once, one of the torpedoes missed the target by over 2,000 yards. I changed the bearing to steer it back towards the target and it hit the hull. But naturally, how does the torpedo know if it should dive deeper towards the target or surf upwards? Does it have a homing radar onboard?

Oh...yes, please also tell me how do I put another torpedo into an empty tube? I have torpedo stocked, but can't use them!?

[ReubenJames]

Michiel de Ruyter,

Thanks a million. The information is precious to me.

No, I run every mission without auto. Everything is manual.

By the way, does Difficulty means the AI level?

Now, looking back, I wonder how useful the identification process is. I mean as long as I get the Course, Bearing and Range. Be it a surface target, or a sub-merged one, the torpedo will hit it anyway, right? For sake of immersion, maybe the identification is to be completed.

I tried to search in blind. Started at course bearing 45, speed 10 knots. Commanding the Seawolf of SC, not DW yet. Nothing happened for the first 30 seconds or so, then I turn right to 90. As the boat did, I keep starring at the NB display, switched to the BB nervously. Then repeat the same steps from 90 to 135, from 135 to 180, from 180 to 225, and from 225 to 270, 270 to 315 and finally 315 to 45. Nothing.

In another mission I made up myself, I managed to pick up a track. So I put it into the TMA. The TMA gave me a bearing, range and speed. How accurately is the information I obtained from Sonar? Also, by the time I put them to TMA, I clicked "Enter Solution". Why nothing came up? Now what's next I should do? Go back to the Sonar room and keep monitoring the displays, or I stay in the TMA room. If I stay in the TMA room, I have nothing to do. So how TMA fits into the whole picture of firing my torpedo?

Are there any procedures in entirety, from contact to targeting the contact and finally fire the torpedo? Use SNAPSHOT or Assign target? After firing the torpedo, do I just wait for it to hit the target or I need to steer the torpedo at some stage?

[kschang]

Let me see if I can explain TMA... This was actually in the 688(I) H/K manual, but that manual is really rare... Any way...

Say you have a sonar contact, bearing 090. No range into,no blade count. You don't even know if it's a surface or subsurface contact.

Assuming it does NOT change course, you have to keep moving to generate a bearing change. THEN you can use Pythagorean theorem and the triangle you have formed to take a guess at the range.

YOU2
^
YOU CONTACT

You know the distance YOU travelled, you know the bearing change, so you can take a guess at the range, and the enemy speed.

This assumes that sound travels in a straight line. It actually bends due to salinity, temperature, and so on. You have to take that into account when you do the range calcs.

The smaller the bearing change, the more error-prone it will be. On the other hand, the larger the bearing change, the faster the enemy could be moving. So there are an infinite number of solutions if you go that that alone. Enemy could be really far away moving really fast, or really close and moving really slow.

So every once in a while (say, 10-15 minutes of tracking) you do a turn, preferably CROSS his bearing, to get a different aspect angle off the contact in order to determine his REAL range and speed.

In TMA, that ruler is your current "solution", i.e. your guesstimate at what his course and speed is. As your bearing lines increase, you can see that your ruler can be pulled in closer but tight (slow but close), or pushed further but spread apart (far but fast). By matching up the notches with the bearing lines you got a solution. It is right? Not sure yet.

If you have crossed his bearing and the solution STILL looks right, then you have locked down his range and thus, his speed as well (since one affects the other), assuming his doesn't zig-zag or change speeds, of course.

Another way to get a true range is by getting his blade count, then analyze his revolutions via DEMON. By that, you can get his speed, and using the TMA, you can back calculate his range.

Is that making any sense?

[Dr.Sid]

YES ! Torpedo has its own homing device. Either active or passive sonar, or wake-folowing device. Read USNI reference, each torpedo has different modes available.

When you fire the torpedo, you set bearing and 'enable distance'. Torpedo will blindly run on the bearing. At given distance it will 'enable'. It will start to look for the target. For ANY target. While searching, it follows predefined pattern of movement (circle/snake).

Torpedo can find target only in narrow area in front of him, in so called acquisition cone. If the depth of the torpedo and depth of the target differs, it is no problem until target gets into the cone.

When it finds target, it follows the target, changes course AND depth until it hits or losses it.

Your task is to set bearing and enable distance so torpedo would enable as close to the target as possible, but far enough so you are sure the target will get acquired.

If you assign track to torpedo, firing computer will automatically set bearing and enable distance. If you use snapshot, you must set both manualy.

Some torpedoes can be wire-guided. You can change their bearing until they are enabled, and you can 'preenable' them. This is used to avoid countermeasures or to follow changes in target position.

[kschang]

As for procedures in entirety, I believe my 688(I) H/K FAQ may be of some help, though it needs a bit of revision to be applied to DW.

You want the one by KChang

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/44566.html

[kschang]

But about torpedo, I am still very unsure about it. What is the difference between firing it SNAPSHOT and assigning a contact to it?
I find there is no difference.

SNAPSHOT is firing a torpedo at a specific bearing, no idea on what the range is. In general the default setting is used. It's generally used as counter-fire, firing one down the bearing of incoming torpedo and hope the enemy flinches, giving you time to evade.


By the way, do you steer the torpedo? For once, one of the torpedoes missed the target by over 2,000 yards. I changed the bearing to steer it back towards the target and it hit the hull. But naturally, how does the torpedo know if it should dive deeper towards the target or surf upwards? Does it have a homing radar onboard?


Sonar, dude. Sonar. Multi-freq anti-jam with decoy avoidance logic and all that.


Oh...yes, please also tell me how do I put another torpedo into an empty tube? I have torpedo stocked, but can't use them!?

Close the tube (i.e. all three buttons), then click on the tube graphic and keep clicking until the payload you want is shown, then leave it for a little while as the loading crew goes to work.

[zma]

Now, looking back, I wonder how useful the identification process is. I mean as long as I get the Course, Bearing and Range. Be it a surface target, or a sub-merged one, the torpedo will hit it anyway, right? For sake of immersion, maybe the identification is to be completed.
You generally want to know who you are attacking. Otherwise, your torpedo might sink a friendly sub or an innocent fishing boat!

I tried to search in blind. Started at course bearing 45, speed 10 knots. Commanding the Seawolf of SC, not DW yet. Nothing happened for the first 30 seconds or so, then I turn right to 90. As the boat did, I keep starring at the NB display, switched to the BB nervously. Then repeat the same steps from 90 to 135, from 135 to 180, from 180 to 225, and from 225 to 270, 270 to 315 and finally 315 to 45. Nothing.
The other vessel might have been too far. Which sonar array did you use? You did "scan the bearings" in the NB display, didn't you?

In another mission I made up myself, I managed to pick up a track. So I put it into the TMA. The TMA gave me a bearing, range and speed. How accurately is the information I obtained from Sonar? Also, by the time I put them to TMA, I clicked "Enter Solution". Why nothing came up? Now what's next I should do? Go back to the Sonar room and keep monitoring the displays, or I stay in the TMA room. If I stay in the TMA room, I have nothing to do. So how TMA fits into the whole picture of firing my torpedo?
I see kschang has already explained this stuff about TMA. I hope I don't create any confusion if I add my version...

Without autocrew, the TMA station doesn't give you anything. What you are seeing are the default range (10000yds), speed (10kts) and course (directly towards you), that are assigned to every new contact, until a proper solution can be determined. TMA is a tool you use to figure out a valid solution for a contact. How?

Say you have assigned a tracker to a sonar contact. Now sonar will report the contact's bearing to the TMA station every two minutes. You must first wait until you see several bearing lines in the TMA screen. When you have that, you grab the TMA ruler, and try to position it so that the tick marks in the ruler line up with the bearing lines. You'll notice that the numbers in the trial solution fields change as you move the ruler. In the upper left corner of the screen you see three vertical lines and some dots. The dots will move as you move the TMA ruler. When you see the dots stack vertically on the center line, you'll have what is called a candidate solution. This means that the solution you have obtained is not in conflict with the bearings that the sonar has generated over time. You might still have a wrong solution, but at least it's possible your solution is correct. If the dots don't stack, your solution is definitely incorrect.

To verify the solution, order a new course. After your sub has steadied to the new course, wait until the sonar has reported three new bearing lines along the new course 'leg'. This should take six minutes. Do the dots still stack nicely along the center line? If they do, there's a good chance your solution is valid (i.e. correct). Usually, however, you'll have to make some adjustments before the dots stack vertically again. After that, you might order yet another course and verify the solution again!

This was hardly more than a scratch on the surface, and there are a lot of real experts around that could drown you with information about the subject. TMA is the most challenging task in SC/DW, and it takes a lot of practise to master! My advise: let the autocrew handle TMA for now, and concentrate on sonar, fire control and tactics. That's what I still do most of the time, and I'm not exactly new to these sims, either! :|\

[ReubenJames]

Is that making any sense?

Sorry, I really can't make anything out of it.

Can you tell me if TMA bears no error? But then TMA doesn't update my first contact does it? So far, I can only see the range keeps moving but the bearing never changes.

Quite often after I have found out torpedoes I fired failed to find target, I switched to "Show Truth". And the target is always "elsewhere"!

[Kapitan]

personaly i skip TMA and work it out for myself takes alot longer but my way works bit to hard to explain but it works

[ReubenJames]

You generally want to know who you are attacking. Otherwise, your torpedo might sink a friendly sub or an innocent fishing boat!
Point taken.


The other vessel might have been too far. Which sonar array did you use? You did "scan the bearings" in the NB display, didn't you?
I used all of them, switching between Towed, Hull and Sphere hoping to see something comes up on the display.


I see kschang has already explained this stuff about TMA. I hope I don't create any confusion if I add my version...
Welcomed.


Without autocrew, the TMA station doesn't give you anything. What you are seeing are the default range (10000yds), speed (10kts) and course (directly towards you), that are assigned to every new contact, until a proper solution can be determined. TMA is a tool you use to figure out a valid solution for a contact. How?

Ok.


Say you have assigned a tracker to a sonar contact. Now sonar will report the contact's bearing to the TMA station every two minutes.

Not every two minutes. I have never noticed, would you clarify.


You must first wait until you see several bearing lines in the TMA screen. When you have that, you grab the TMA ruler, and try to position it so that the tick marks in the ruler line up with the bearing lines. You'll notice that the numbers in the trial solution fields change as you move the ruler. In the upper left corner of the screen you see three vertical lines and some dots. The dots will move as you move the TMA ruler. When you see the dots stack vertically on the center line, you'll have what is called a candidate solution.
Ah...now we are getting somewhere. I understand what the dots are and the meaning of them being overlapped on the centre line.

This means that the solution you have obtained is not in conflict with the bearings that the sonar has generated over time. You might still have a wrong solution, but at least it's possible your solution is correct. If the dots don't stack, your solution is definitely incorrect.
Very clear.


To verify the solution, order a new course.
What course should I turn to?


After your sub has steadied to the new course, wait until the sonar has reported three new bearing lines along the new course 'leg'. This should take six minutes.

I don't understand this part. Do I do the Sonar work, or you mean I should enable Autocrew to do it for me?


Do the dots still stack nicely along the center line? If they do, there's a good chance your solution is valid (i.e. correct). Usually, however, you'll have to make some adjustments before the dots stack vertically again. After that, you might order yet another course and verify the solution again!
If I understand the above, I think I can make sense out of this one.


This was hardly more than a scratch on the surface, and there are a lot of real experts around that could drown you with information about the subject. TMA is the most challenging task in SC/DW, and it takes a lot of practise to master! My advise: let the autocrew handle TMA for now, and concentrate on sonar, fire control and tactics. That's what I still do most of the time, and I'm not exactly new to these sims, either! :|\
So, how long have you been doing this, I mean manually operate except the TMA?

[Kapitan]

i dont use TMA but i been on sub sims since SSN came out and started full time play when SC came out

i use my own methord and by pass TMA

[zma]

Every sonar array has four trackers, labeled A to D in sphere array, E to H in hull array and I to L in TA. The trackers have the job of following the contact and sending bearing updates to TMA, and do not require autocrew to work. If you have assigned a tracker to a contact, but do not see new bearing lines appearing in TMA every two minutes, the contact must have moved to your sonar array's baffles. That's the only explanation I can think of. Unless, of course, you have paused the simulation... :)

The purpose of the course change is to significantly change the own ship's contribution to the bearing rate. What kschang said about crossing the contact's bearing is an effective way of doing this; in any case, you should change your course by at least 30 degrees. Reading tip: TimmyG00's TACMAN contains an excellent guide to TMA. If you haven't got it already, download it from http://www.subguru.com/downloads.html.

How long have I been doing this? Hmmm, when did I buy 688(I) Hunter/Killer? '98? '99? (There have been breaks in between, though ;) )Anyway, I don't recall ever completely relying on autocrew, apart from TMA. I have used autocrew occasionally on sonar, if for example there were surface ships using active sonar and I couldn't be bothered to man the active intecept all the time (this in SC, DW of course has separate active intercept autocrew). Even then, I tried to be sure autocrew wouldn't detect any contacts I had missed.

By the way, I'm sorry if it seems I'm spelling stuff out to you. I just don't want there to be any misunderstandings. :doh:

[ReubenJames]

Zema,
You have been very very helpful like many others on this forum. This is a nice and knowledgeable forum.

[zma]

Zema,

Hey, what is the extra "e" for?
:-j

[ReubenJames]

Alright seamen, here comes my results. With TMA switched to auto, it makes a hell of difference. Every dot, which now I understand, sits tight on the vertical line of the "T" bar at the upper left of the TMA screen.

I also get more familiar with the operation now. To report a contact, I just click (i.e. "mark") either on the NB or the BB displays. If I encounter an Active emmitting sonar source, mostly from surface vessels, I just "mark" by drifting the triangular pointer to the direction vectored by the display. Whcihever way, a dot will be put on to the "T" bar to represent my reporting. It is not done automatically, I have to manually perform this procedure.

The more reporting of the contact I make, the more accurate the speed is as indicated by the TMA instrument. Thanks to many of you, I now get to the method of classifyig the contact and use the TPK. I suppose the TPK is the number of revolutions the bladers have been through per 1 nautical miles of trip.

I wish there would be a co-op, whereby human players can do at each station. For instance, I manage the sonar, zma manages the TMA, Kaptian gets to the weapons...etc. That would be great fun.

Anyway, I still have 1 big question for discussions here. Probably a bad habit inherited from playing flight simulation over the years. See, the speed of aircrafts is several hundred times that of a boat. So when I go creating a mission, this bad habit makes me placing units 10~20nm away. It takes ages to get to each other.

Q1: What separation do you use normally when you create a mission?

Q2: What is the fundamental technique to look for possible contact? Right now, I make turns in steps of 45 degree at roughly 5 knots. Is that a good method? I can't think of anything otherwise. Would you suggest some other methods?

[Zerogreat]

I wish there would be a co-op, whereby human players can do at each station. For instance, I manage the sonar, zma manages the TMA, Kaptian gets to the weapons...etc. That would be great fun.

Well i have some good news for you then, this IS possible in DW :)

[ReubenJames]

Oh Zerogreat, my dear fellow,

You know I do believe it is COOL.

[Fish]

Q1: What separation do you use normally when you create a mission?

For multiplayer maps, between 10 and 20 nm depends on the bottom type, SSP.

Q2: What is the fundamental technique to look for possible contact? Right now, I make turns in steps of 45 degree at roughly 5 knots. Is that a good method? I can't think of anything otherwise. Would you suggest some other methods?
When not finding anything with the TA straight I turn just enough to cover the TA's blind spot.
When you want to make a big turn (90 degrees), wind your TA, and stream it when on new course. Your TA is straight in less time.

[ReubenJames]

Absolutely awesome, the more I play DW, the more I find it so. I think I have to put aside for the time being SC. Actually, I bought SC just 10 days before I bought DW. Anyway, the ME (Mission Editor is such a great invention.

I just find there is something called "Random Start Box". See, I have been doing this tracking business. So I need to generate mission which places enemy boat randomly so I don't know which one is everytime and where it is. Thanks also to Random Group.

After almost 3 exercises, I managed to track down one. I also managed to fire upon it but the loud explosion was mis-interpreted as hitting the hull. It was the counter measure. But at least I tracked it in the right direction. It was so quiet, the Typhoon. I think I was luck only.

[SeaQueen]

Q1: What separation do you use normally when you create a mission?

Depends on the scenario. If I want to do something quick I start with both sides within sensor range. The Mission Editor has an overlay that allows one to see the maximum sensor ranges.

That doesn't really teach one much, though. A lot of naval warfare is just FINDING the enemy. Usually, I ask myself "What is everyone trying to do?" and build from there. I usually also take advantage of dynamic locations and dynamic groups so that I can have some surprises.


Q2: What is the fundamental technique to look for possible contact? Right now, I make turns in steps of 45 degree at roughly 5 knots. Is that a good method? I can't think of anything otherwise. Would you suggest some other methods?

That's actually a deep question. It really depends a lot on what you're trying to do. Optimum employment of sensors is heavy stuff. A mathematician during World War Two named Koopman wrote a book about it called Search and Screening. He was trying to find German U-Boats. It's good stuff, but not simple.

How I'd employ my sensors in a transit scenario, is very different from how I'd do it in a barrier search, or for area clearence. It might also depend on things like how fast I needed to go, what I needed to defend against, and what else was working with me. It might also depend on how much I wanted to frustrate the enemy's ability to find me. It might also depend on the SSP and bottom type.

For a fast transit scenario, for example I might not NEED to see very far, because just by kinematics, only submarines within a limited angle are dangerous or alternately I might sprint and drift. Sprinting a period of time to maintain a certain average speed of advance while being nearly blind, then drifting a period to ping or listen.

A good scenario will force one to make compromises. That's what makes it interesting. If there was a clear answer regarding what to do, the game would be a whole lot less fun.

[ReubenJames]

Thanks SeaQueen. The Dynamic Group is very good. But the Random Start Box is even cleverer. With both mechanism, I can make a 1 Vs 1 start with the enemy at different location each time.

What is the SSP and Bottom Type? How does it affect my searching effort?

Looks like that it's all a game of searching.

[SeaQueen]

What is the SSP and Bottom Type? How does it affect my searching effort?

Looks like that it's all a game of searching.

SSP is sound speed profile. If you're searching with sonar, it determines how the sound waves travel through the water, and so it impacts your sonar's range. If the SSP favors it, and the water depth allows for it, you might get a convergence zone and maybe detect some targets from 30Nmi or more away. If the acoustics favor it, your sonar performace is will be far better than your radar performance, and potentially yield more information.

On the other hand, though, in a bottom limited environment, though, you might only get 2Nmi.

Bottom type is whether the bottom is rock, sand or mud. That also effects sonar performance. If you can get a good bottom bounce, then the fact that the SSP is bottom limited, might not be so bad. You might get 10Nmi or so of effective range.

Another thing is sea state. If you have a windy day with big waves, then you'll get lots of noise near the surface. That makes a big difference in your sonar performance too. On the other hand, if you have a towed array, you might be able to minimize that by towing it at a depth below the noise (just don't drag it on the bottom).

One should not overemphasize sonar. You have other sensors too, which frequently have longer ranges than that (ESM and radar), but sonar is probably the most complicated of all of them in the game.

And yeah, an awful lot of this game is either searching for the enemy or complicating the enemy's search efforts. Whether you get hit with pair of torpedos, a salvo of cruise missiles, a barrage of cannon fire, or a suicide boat, the person who strikes first will almost always be utterly devastating to his adversary. The only way to win consistently is to find and identify your target before he can make a strike at you, because if he plays well, you won't get to shoot again. You'll be out of action shortly after he opens fire.

[ReubenJames]

Thanks SeaQeen.

ESM and Radar are very effective. Troubles are they can't be used beneath the surface.

About the SSP, it is indeed, very complicated. That's why I admire Sonalyst's work. Layers modelling is such a complex thing.

I have a wishful thinking about the "Bottom Type". If there are mountains, meaning more landscpae as the Bottom Type. With that, evading torpedoes is such great fun.

[Bellman]

:) Reuben - If you like using the topography I have sent some scenarios to Bill. They are mostly set
around islands and seamounts so you get that weaving, dodging 'hide and seek' fun play.:o

Designed for MP - most of them can be played SP but no AI can imitate the human 'Crafty Dodger'

Plug over. ;)

[JamesT73J]

:) Reuben - If you like using the topography I have sent some scenarios to Bill. They are mostly set
around islands and seamounts so you get that weaving, dodging 'hide and seek' fun play.:o

Designed for MP - most of them can be played SP but no AI can imitate the human 'Crafty Dodger'

Plug over. ;)

Plug away. The more the merrier.

[ReubenJames]

:) Reuben - If you like using the topography I have sent some scenarios to Bill. They are mostly set
around islands and seamounts so you get that weaving, dodging 'hide and seek' fun play.:o

Designed for MP - most of them can be played SP but no AI can imitate the human 'Crafty Dodger'

Plug over. ;)
Can you send me a copy of your mission file? Or tell me the lat and long so I can create one myself.

Would you also give me the link to Hyperlobby. I would like to plug in.

[Bellman]

:) Start here for Hyperlobby :-

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=39788&highlight=hyperlobby

I cant MP at pres. - router headaches.

For locations DL my MP Scenarios from Bills - load 'em up, go in-game and run your mouse pointer over the
centre of the OAs noting Lat and Long. Then go to ME go into the world map and hunt -
it only takes a couple of minutes per scenario.

Each selection is a compromise - you may find better. ! ;)

Good hunting. :up:

[ReubenJames]

I find the Akula a horribly deadly adversary. For more than a few times, it fired SS-N-15B I believe. It confuses me that more than 1 torpedo was fired upon me. I think sonar picked up first contact when the missile left the tube. The second contact was actually where the torpedo was dropped into the waters. It is also very quiet.

How do I track down an Akula?

[MaHuJa]

I find the Akula a horribly deadly adversary. For more than a few times, it fired SS-N-15B I believe. It confuses me that more than 1 torpedo was fired upon me. I think sonar picked up first contact when the missile left the tube. The second contact was actually where the torpedo was dropped into the waters. It is also very quiet.

How do I track down an Akula?

When a torpedo meets water you should get a "torpedo in the water" warning. Not before. Missile launches are detectable by increased noise levels, but you have to examine the sonar display to see them.

The range of the Shkval rocket torpedo (which does 200 knots) is 6nm. You may wish to stay outside this range, as the shkval isn't very forgiving on reaction time. The SS-N-27 ASW drops a torpedo far deadlier than the stallion (SS-N-16) but has a max range of 18nm, whereas the stallion reaches longer. The adcap has a reach of 23nm.

My first comment is this: What did you do to be detected in "stallion range"? (18nm+ though it is of course possible to get a stallion from shorter range)

Secondly, learning torpedo evasion might help.
Basic guidelines:
The more time the torpedo spends seeing only countermeasures, the greater the chance of it homing on the CM. Until a fix is around (next revision of "LWAMI" mod) that spells the death sentence for a non-player-guided torpedo. And most of those too.
Once a torpedo does find you, CMs in the water is the way to go. Maximize the time it spends looking at a CM too. (Two CMs is better than one, but I think one CM at a time is more effective per CM.)
When very near to a CM, a torpedo will be blind to your maneuvering - use this knowledge smartly and you might evade a torpedo that got close.
(Also, active torpedoes does have passive sensors going, so either drop a passive as well or include cutting your own noise (speed) in the plan. I've seen a torpedo veer off towards a CM the moment its target (me) stopped cavitating.

Lastly, for really quiet targets, scanning the the narrowband for low-frequency lines is vital. Use the towed array, turn down the max frequency shown, and start sliding the direction marker slowly until you've covered the entire area. If you think you may have seen something, look again. (Occasionally, a very weak signal will have a line darker than the background!) An akula will have a line at 50, and all submerged have a line at 125. (A few torpedoes are exceptions to this rule - just note some ships have 125 too)
The Towed array has a frequency range about 10-1000 and the longest range, the hull array 100-1200, and spherical 1000-2000 with the shortest range..


Look for the "notfallmappe" on subguru.com which will have all sorts of information a newcomer collected. It'll have tons of tips.

[Kapitan]

the weak spot of an akul as with any sub is its stern get in behind the propellor an im deaf as a post unless i stream T/A

you got no hope if the sub has a T/A it will detect you but stay out about 10 miles yeah some weapons can still get you but theres less chance of the akula hearing you

[LuftWolf]

Kap, make sure you don't ever use your TA if we play MP. ;) :up:

Seriously, you need to use it more often than not (I use it all the time unless I am in shallow water), otherwise you are making yourself deaf for no reason! :ping: :sunny:

[Kapitan]

when i had over gepard after my 100 missions i shall use ta as sop so hows that ?

[LuftWolf]

How about you try playing one mission with the mod to AI sonars and object passive sound levels and tell me how it goes? ;) :lol: :up:

[Kapitan]

i would but im still trying to work out how to install this voice mod kinda annoying

but by the end of this week gepard is going to bow out and i wont be commanding her any more :(