Sub Vs Sub Cold war style

[Nieldo]

Has anyone ever managed to track a sub subout being detected in multiplayer?

If anyone has any tips to share I would like that, I find the idea of beinh right behind someone without htem knowing very intresting :P

Also, is there anyway to go silent other then ordering full stop? Or will you always show up on narrowband no matter what if your close to a target.

Thanks for the replys

[SquidB]

In my experiance in mp as soon as you get a rough idea where the enemy sub is, you let rip with the weapons.

Obvioulsy in the cold war usually both sides detectec each other but hung around to collect data on their opponent.

Failing that say if you were tracking a boomer then you hoped to stay hidden.

MP usually is about frying the other guy before he fry's you.

Perhaps it would make an intresting scenario where you start on peace time ROE.

They tend to work better in SP because you have time compression and these things tend to take time.

However one thing I have been wondering about it Towed Array protocal. We often hear about subs hiding in anothers baffles, why not steam along with the towed array out all the time. (must be easier than crazy ivans ect) :ping:

Can any of those in the know advise? :hmm:

[Bellman]

I dont claim to be ' in the know' but have always felt SC/SCX/DW unrealistic in implementing 'baffles.'

In real life I can understand that operational proceedures may preclude regular cruising with the TA
deployed and therefore the limited Sph. range and stern baffle provides stalking opportunities.
If you stalk you would not approach to a range where your target could tack to a bearing 'quickly'
which would reveal you. So that implies a range outside Sph. Conf. coverage.

In- game there are no limitations other than speed/reverse for TA useage.The norm MP is to run
with TA out except possibly in emergencies or in shallow waters. Stalking a target sub at 'range' by
hiding in its baffles presupposes a blind spot at the rear of the sub. There is no TA rear baffle implemented.

Having some basic understanding of real TA construction I would have expected considerable degradation
in the TA receptivity around the 180 deg arc. If this isnt 'classified ' info perhaps someone can enlighten us ? :hmm:

[TLAM Strike]

I've heard Ex-Navy types saying that they don't operate with the towed array deployed all the time.

On the older Russian submarines that had TAs (Victor III, Akula, Sierra) their towed array cables were made of this rubber stuff that couldn't be wrapped very tight around its reel so they had to build those big cool looking towed array pods on their rudders. Now these rubber cables were very fragile so they wouldn't be used all the time because of the risk of breakage.

Also lots of Russian subs didn’t have TAs. The HENs, Yankees, Alfas, Victor I/II, Delta I/II/III, Charlie I/II, Papa, Mike, every Cold War Diesel etc. So that’s why we were able to hide in their baffles…

[Bellman]

The ' Unofficial Transcript ' into the USS Greenville collision gave clues to the fact that real-life baffles are greater than in the sim.

If there is a 180 deg TA baffle then shouldnt we have it in the sim ?

[Bellman]

................correction a baffle arc at the 180 deg position. ;)

[Kapitan]

well the towed array on the russian subs could run at full speed where as the american one i dont think could (could be wrong here)

as an akula skipper i do say its not realy worth using the towed array unless you are in open ocean littorals or just feeling tense cause you think some one is behind you

[Dr.Sid]

I don't get it .. why should be usage of TA limited ?
IRL in peace time this can be due a risk of losing the array. You have lot's of things in the sea .. which you don't see (ie hear). But at the war time ? Risking to loose array compared to risking to ignore enemy sub - there is a clear answer.

Baffles masks, that's right, but good captain knows it and changes course often. I ususaly do slowdown to 5kts (to enable hull sensors), 90 degree turn, (to scan whole circle with all sensors), then turn to orignal heading. I use TA only for distant tracks. In 'busy environment' can autocrew easily clutter your display (and audio reports) with ambigous tracks (especially when there is lots of new and loud contacts like torpedoes and CMs).
You also have to pay atention to keep your TA intact (and not touching the bottom). When I know where the targets roughly are, then I usually retrieve TA. It gives me more freedom - one less thing to worry about. In dense situation, you can get much better data from UUV.
On the other hand, on large distances, TA is priceless, of course.

Buffles or not, you can't sneak upon sub, which suspects there is somebody sneaking upon it.

[Kapitan]

true but its diffrent if it doesnt have a TA

[Takeda Shingen]

well the towed array on the russian subs could run at full speed where as the american one i dont think could (could be wrong here)

Source?

[Kapitan]

i was meaning in the game source try it for your self and see :D

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, in that case, only the Seawolf needs to retrieve its array. The 688 and all Akula classes have no need to do so.

[Kapitan]

yup thats what i mean only problem with the TA is when you reverse kinda breaks and get rather annoying too especialy when you cant sit on the bottom with it

[SquidB]

hmm ive been thinking about this, I think it may be that most of the time, subs are on their way somewhere. Either to their mission or back to port.

Now whilst they are doing this they wont be going at 4 knots. Higher speed means sonar washout. And the towed array most likely would be stowed.

Whilst your at your position/ mission grid, whatever, it makes sense to go slow with the TA, for maximun Situational Awareness.

Obviously all the above is conjecture on my part. If anyone can shed more light on this please do so .

[Kapitan]

where i am under ice its not to good to have a TA out ok ok im between 4 and 8 knots but im also very very shallow only 30 or so meters which means if i have to dive and come up to avoid a burg i could stare my TA on it

its good out in the flat areas but i dont use it often

[SquidB]

Yes but that is what we are asking.

Is it normal practice for a sub to have its towed array out. If so then how can you get into a submarines baffles.

Under ice i can see that you would not deploy it, although i have in game. Question is what is normal practice in RL

[Takeda Shingen]

I think you're going to have a hard time tracking that type of information down. Current operating procedures are not readily discussed, and anything found would likely be little more than heresay.

For what it is worth, my thoughts are that you would deploy a sensor of value (which I assume a TA is) as frequently and as long as possible.

[Kapitan]

i would immagine out in RL but as im not going to fast in the game i find i can pick up contacts using hull mounted sensors and some times even the periscope

its all about timeing monovering and skill when i detect a contact im normaly only about 15 miles away so i just head for an intercept course very very slowly (about 3 to 4 knots)

[SquidB]

Theres no way your going to detect a sub contact first with your bow array.

If they have their TA deployed they will know all about you long before you pick them up. :ping: That is of course unless they are doing a rate of knots.

[Takeda Shingen]

Theres no way your going to detect a sub contact first with your bow array.

If they have their TA deployed they will know all about you long before you pick them up. :ping: That is of course unless they are doing a rate of knots.

Agreed. Going 'TA-less' in MP is suicide.

[Kapitan]

i just normaly sit there at 3 or 4 knots so theres not much chance of a pick up where some one who is doing 10 knots or more is

i do use TA just not often

[Takeda Shingen]

Oh no, they can still find you with that tell-tale 50Hz line your plant gives off. I use that trick all the time: Such a signature with no BB noise=Russian submarine in area.

[Kapitan]

this isnt mp as we all know the AI subs are pretty dumb if it was mp then id be using a diffrent tactic

[Takeda Shingen]

The question posted in this thread specifically relates to MP.

[Kapitan]

whoops lol didnt see that part

[Bellman]

Reports of real-life sub operations indicate regular baffle clearance procedures.
The inference is that this refers to rear baffles.

In DW MP running mostly with TA out you have no rear (TA) baffles. You are concerned with forward baffles
but the arc from 30 deg to 330 deg is covered.

We are concerned to track often faint NB traces and are TA dependent for range.

I mantain that we should have an area around 180 deg where TA sonar performance is diminished.
Whether this amounts to a baffle or just reduced range ability is not clear.
I suspect that this is a 'sensitive' topic so I wont press home my point. ;)

[LuftWolf]

From the speculation file...

Bellman, in defense of the argument against a baffled TA, all of the calculations of sound picked up by the array undergo a massive digital transformation before being displayed as signals with a bearing.

I believe that we may have computers sensitive enough to minimize any degredation.

Also, TA's, from any country, definately have a certain water-lifespan. That is, the more you run around with it streamed, the sooner you are going to have to be in port so someone can pull it apart.

EDIT: I can't even describe the avatar I have now... http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/hangover.jpg

[Bellman]

:) I will take a lot of convincing that there is not serious reception degradation at the 180 deg. :hmm:

Avatar - Neals Texan humour :lol: ......Temporary gag (I hope ;) )

My favourites are the 'Shore Leave' and 'Night in a brothel' ones. Good fun. :rock:

His favourite trick is to withdraw it just after you post a reaction - leaving you thinking '' Wow - Am I seeing things -
did I really drink that much !! " :oops: :o :huh: :arrgh!: :damn:

:rotfl:

[Dr.Sid]

I still don't get it. If I have TA 300m behind the sub, why should be its 'coverage' only 180 degrees ? Ship is 300m away, it would only be strong contact, nothing else. Disturbances (wake) of the sub should not affect TA, because TA is in different depth than sub.
I think TA should hear almost while cirlce quite clear. In the fron there should always be strong own-ship contact, that's why the 'masking' is there. But the masking would not work in the turns anyway (and it does not).
Onlw when TA gets into wake, which can happen with depth changes or at high speed, TA should be affected, but all circle in similar way.
I of course don't have any knowledge of how rhis works in real life.

[Bellman]

Dr. Sid
why should be its 'coverage' only 180 degrees ?

Thats not what I said. The DW TA coverage is apparently an arc of
300 deg (030 - 330 deg) as shown in the documentation.

I refer to the fact that I would expect reception to degradate behind the sub at and around its 180 deg bearng.
In reality (who knows) the arc might be say 158 - 202 deg with a deteriorating starting
at such bearings and climaxing at 180 (ish)

I am 'observing' that there is a TA baffle behind real subs.

If so (?) then DW should/could model it ? :hmm:

[Amizaur]

From http://subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41165

Keeping in mind that I was not a sonarman so my knowledge on the subject should not be considered definative. As I recall the TA sensitivity was not especially better on the beams but bearing accuracy was. There is a small null zone directly foward and aft of the array but it is very small. Performance in the forward section is also hindered substantially by own ship noise.

[Bellman]

:lol: Ok OK :lol:

Rip wrote :-
Some of this stuff is not done accurately not only for security reason, but also play balance.

I am going to leave it there. ;)

[Fish]

There should be no baffle at all when you go at two knts, the TA sinks and own ship is no longer a problem, shouldn't it? :hmm:

[SquidB]

Dont want to keep on harping back to whats been said, but i think that...(and this is an amatuers prospective).

1) You got your TA out? Then you have no blind spot, regardless of any minor degredation to the 180.

2) If thats the case, when do subs deploy the thing, always? or depending on the situation

3) If the subs we read about are able to get into another subs baffles then that must suggest that the sub being trailed didnt have its TA deployed.

4) As all the above is conjecture feel free to tear it to bits ;)

[ReubenJames]

I don't understand why TA device should be hanging around outside the submarine main body. What if it hits rocks and get cut off?

[SquidB]

Well that is a real risk, depending on the speed of the sub the TA droops down (DW models this well) so if your near the bottom you need to be careful.

I dont think DW models the chance of ther TA breaking from contact with the bottom, but you do get a 'wash out' effect when it hits the sea bed.