Akula 65 Torpedo

[Bellman]

LuftWolf and Amizaurs fine new mod for DW has forced me tp re-appraise my use of this weapon as it is now changed to a wake-homer.

In sub v sub, MP paricularly, which weapon type is your most successful killer ?

[Bellman]

:lol: Addressing this question to Ak divers only. :lol:

So we dont want 'hundreds' of 48s going down as 'Others', right. :hulk:

Those SW divers are so pushy. :arrgh!:

They get everywhere. :roll:

[TLAM Strike]

I'm a subroc man myself.

[Bellman]

:) The SS-N-27 ASWs are awesome with the higher torp speed in DW.

Its just the fisherman in me likes to hang out a quiet lure with the 65. Was hit a lot MPing 1.8 SW
by this tactic but I recognise the game balance has changed.
Still when the SW spots my AK missile transient now more easily and at greater range (LuftAm)
I would have liked to send a 65 at the same time, as before. ;)

Just an insurance policy - now its got to be a 53 in close, with another giveaway TIW, or the shotgun.

[TLAM Strike]

The 27 is fantastic for a close in fight (Yea I consider 20 miles "close in" :lol: ) but you haven’t lived till you've nailed someone with a SS-N-16 at its max range. CZ are cool.

[Bellman]

:huh: :cool: :rock: :lol:


Yea I consider 20 miles "close in"

:rotfl:

[Kapitan]

65cm here hate ASW missiles i rearly load them out also have no real use for missiles at all under ice so normaly the 65 and 53 take the place of the ASM SS-N-27

[Bellman]

:) So far looks as if the 65s pretty important to many divers.

I guess most of these pollers use the conventional 65 in its 'vanilla'
SS DW role with wire guiding and not as a wakehomer ?

[Amizaur]

You don't bother with fact that there is no such thing as 65cm anti-sub torpedo in reality ? :-) Real 65-76 is dedicated anti-ship weapon. If we have non-existing 65cm anti-sub torpedo in the game and that's ok for most people (?) then maybe let's make even better 100kts 50nm active/passive/wire-guided/wake-homing/IR stealth torpedo for Akulas, for sure they would make most of their kills with it ;-))))
I think real challenge is to achieve success with realistic weapons, in other case it becomes rather sci-fi (like X-Wing) or alternate-history game, not simulator :).
And the Russian ASW missiles are very good, so I think that even without universal 65cm torpedo they have advantage in weapons - longer range and short reaction time with missiles, quite good UGST torpedos at closer ranges, and those awesome 65cm wake-homers against surface ships.
Next thing I'll make for Luftwolf's mod will be a long-range mode for 65cm torpedo, it can go to 54nm (!!!) at still not-bad speed of 40kts. It would be even better anti-ship weapon then, think what could you do with 54nm 40kts wake-soming torpedo :-) Of course "short-range" 27nm/50kts mode will be still available.

[Bellman]

:) The beefed-up wakehomer sounds awesome. :up:
I think the mod is great with this sole reservation.

I always admire the quest for realism and would be the last to agree to ''100 kts 50 nm''

Many MP players will, I think, bemoan the loss of the vanilla (as supplied) 65. SP divers will welcome it, possibly.

Wouild it be impossible to have the option to switch , but within your excellent mod ?
Even if this meant a pre -game selection (as SCU) ? :hmm:

[Piervit]

In my opinion ASROC are too performant.

-No "torpedo in the water" at the lauch but when it hit the water.
-A too good sonar. It can detect a target too easily. In SC, an ASROC need to be at 1nm of a target for detect it. It oblige to have a very good TMA (manual TMA often).
-important speed (65 knots, for SS-N-27 ASW). The target has no many time for avoid.

I am Akula diver, and i prefer use 65cm because it is too easy to score a kill with ASROC.

[Bellman]

The SS-N-27s are now very powerfull and we must hope that the gentlemen of SC prevail in MP.
Admirable restraint was shown by many Ak divers who would not deign to send more than 2 or 3 missiles
per launch sequence. Some Fleets set similar rules in stone.

As a new convert to the Ak I welcome the LuftAm mods introduction of stronger launch transients which aims
at better game balance. But the 65 ASW was and should be the means to underpin the Ak divers
self-restraint in achieving this balance.

The SWs more realistic but slower turn-rate in DW has to be a vital factor when triangulated by MK40s.
You can run faster and burn torps with your cms (now) but if you are accurately surrounded you will die. ;)

Is this the slippery slide we go down ? Quick games with overkill missile launches ? :hmm:

[LuftWolf]

In Combat Mission quick battles we have similar discussions about balanced time periods for "pick your own force battles" (eg. 1941 Eastern Front where the Russians have unstoppably heavy armor compared to the available Pak AT guns and German tanks). In the end, the only way for the game itself to retain realism (accurate TO&E's for time periods) is to have standing, generally accepted gentlemen's rules about not picking them with the purpose of creating balanced fights.

With regards to SUBROCS, I suppose in RL the reason a sub diver might not load all fourteen tubes with subrocs and and just keep launching them is because he is never quite sure of the entirity of the threat environment, and that tactic would leave him quite vulnerable to threats other than the primary ASW target.

When I dive in these contexts, I like to keep full situational awareness and not give in to "I know this is the only threat" kind of thinking that leads to poor overall tactics and etiquette.

I suppose the other way around this is for MP mission designers to severly punish subrocs swarms, somehow, but I'm not entirely sure about how to do that... :arrgh!:

[Bellman]

On a practical level as an extension of the matters considered here Molon Labe has written an excellent
article in Tips and Tweaks about evening things out :-

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/showthread.php?p=182#post182

For those who have'nt seen it - its well worth a look. :cool:

[Kapitan]

its always worth knowing what your enamy has got :D

[SquidB]

It would be nice to be able to limit which weapons you can take.

I would of thought even in wartime a captian would sail out with what he was given and not what he could chose.

Im sure that a mix of weapons would be more sensible given that it is unlikely to know excatly what your going up against.

Its a luxury we have but surely unrealistic?

[Kapitan]

not realy it depends entirly on what the mission is whats in the stores the rest is left to the skipper to decide

[Bellman]

We do seem to love those 65s :up:

A choice of traditional (SS) or wakehomeing as a loadout or software implementation would be Nirvana. :|\

[Amizaur]

In my opinion ASROC are too performant.

-No "torpedo in the water" at the lauch but when it hit the water.

Maybe some kind of "underwater missile launch" messages will be included in next versions of DW


-A too good sonar. It can detect a target too easily. In SC, an ASROC need to be at 1nm of a target for detect it. It oblige to have a very good TMA (manual TMA often).


Abosolutely ! The small air-dropped torpedos simply don't have 5k yards acquire range like in DW. In reality only heavyweight torpedos in good conditions and large target achieve similar performance. The seeker of late Mk46 is said to have range of about 1500yd, Mk50 is said to double this. Older russian ASW torpedos had about 1000-1500m acquire range, best modern APR-3E is claimed to have 2500m acquire range.
So seekers of small ASW torpedos (and old heavyweight torpedos) should be at least halved in the game. I wrote this many times and hope someone from Sonalysts read this, also I hope that Luftwolf will agree to make this change in his mod. This would make SUBROCs little less "super" weapon.


-important speed (65 knots, for SS-N-27 ASW). The target has no many time for avoid.

Not sure if that's realistic... don't see a Russian ASW torpedo with 65kts speed, they were electric in most cases. The 350mm APR family solid-propelland powered torpedos are even little faster (APR-3E 70kts) but are not used in SS-N-27 ASW system, lighter 285kg (APR-3E weights 475kg) 324mm electric MPT-1UE torpedo was chosen insteed.

APR family is probably used only as air-dropped ASW weapon, not as missile payload.
But if it was chosen to be element of SS-N-27, then it would have 70kts speed but it's range is probably only 1-2nm.


I am Akula diver, and i prefer use 65cm because it is too easy to score a kill with ASROC.

Then why not go further with challenges and try to use UGST torpedos in Luftwolf's mod - because I think that it's too easy to score a kill with 65cm :-)
And I think that SUBROCs acquire range will be reduced in mod, too bad I didn't suggested to include this change from the start, simply forgot :-(

[Bellman]

UGST SCX had 37.5 nm range - Luftam max active 16.3 nm passive 17 nm.(appx) :hmm:

Yes the skilled will close but without the 65s long range duel potential in DW MP will descend back
into missile overkill. Is that what we want ? :o

The SC 65 v 48 duels were fun because both SW and Ak, in their different ways, could dice at distance. :cool:

If there is a desire to castrate the Akula lets be honest about the intent, because thats the direction its going in. :down: :damn: :hmm:

[Amizaur]

Well, in reality there is no long-range duels between modern quite submarines. Detection ranges of 688I vs Akula II would be inside 10k yards (probably very much inside) :-).

The UGST torpedo has specs about that:

range up to 50km/27nm with speed 35kts
range up to 25km/13.5nm with speed 50kts

for gameplay we may stretch the short-range mode to 30km/16nm at 50kts but not more.

ADCAP is said to be about:

27nm at 40kts
21nm at 55kts

some sources 11-14nm/65kts
some others say also about 30nm/40kts but 27 is "about 30" ;-)

So, if currently the short-range modes are not simulated properly (torpedos have always max range regardles of speed) and range for ADCAP is hard set to 27nm, then for UGST it should be set to 27nm too, not short-range 13-16nm mode. Or decrease ADCAP range to 21nm to simulate short-range only mode :-).

I think in the future I convince Luftwolf to use my torpedo doctrines with speed/depth/range depending on each other and we will have realistic speed/range combinations. But for now, Luftwolf if ADCAP is 27nm then please increase the range of UGST to it's max value too - 27nm. It will have only speed penalty against ADCAP, but range will be the same. And... hmmm... this will be the same range and speed as for 65cm (50kts 27nm) sooo... nobody should miss guided 65cm any more I think ? :)
If you feel that it's too close to ADCAP specs (and UGST should be inferior in range/speed parametres, only the max range is similar) then we could give to ADCAP max speed of 60kts - it's credited to be capable of even more (some sources say 11-14nm at 65kts) but 60kts for sure :-).

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur, you're making good sense. I think all that is a good idea. :up:

I have the next two days free. I'm ready to get down to work. :|\

Send me anything you've got. :rock:

[LuftWolf]

I like making the ADCAP 60 kts and increasing the range of the UGST to 27nm.

And the torpedo seekers... and a whole bunch of other stuff I have to think about when I have had some sleep. :doh:

[Bellman]

Wow - thats nice music guys. :|\

Re seeker (In mod) - Tested UGST countermeasures (no conclusion yet) but had a 53 active, enabled and at 100 mtrs depth,
wired back at my Ak and she didnt pick me up at 300 mtrs depth plus and running-in from about 2 nm.
We were both on an identical course.

I would have thought that with the 'too wide' seeker cone discussed it would have picked me up. I will try some more tests.

[LuftWolf]

Yeah, I was just giving you "a glimps into my world" in the other thread... :88) but it changes quickly sometimes... :yep: ;) :sunny: