DW selling techniques a joke ?

[Kapitan]

from my perspective as a good saleman the following is not good

advertisement and promotion: not much known about this game in the outer world i knew nothing about dangerous waters untill i came to subsim and many of my other friends who play sub command and SH3 have never heard of DW

how to counter: easy advertise more in magasines on the net and in shops

in store sales: total joke beyond belief i bough sub command in a store from sonalasyst it done ok so a better version would go down more so i bough sub command when it was kinda in the middle (about 2003)

how to counter: create a demand que like playstation does put a few not alot of copys on the shelf in major stores and when sold out have it on order that way you dont have to over produce and make a loss

my opinion: im glad DW is out im glad its a good game and with the patches it will be better but it will probly be a flunk i doubt many more people than these people on subsim are going to buy it so it becomes junk and that means no copies sold its failed,
not many people know about DW so they dont investigate it and dont dig deep its what puts people off.

personaly i think sonalasyst is going to have to rethink this whole idea of selling DW otherwise its going to be one hell of a great waste.

oh p.s can i see the sales figures if its possible please or something showing number of copys sold

cheers dont mean to be negative just advice and one opinion

[PeriscopeDepth]

Here we go again...

First off, I'm pretty sure Sonalysts has far more experienced marketing people than yourself.

not many people know about DW so they dont investigate it and dont dig deep its what puts people off.

The truth is not many people care to know about DW. It is a great naval simulation, no doubt. But it is a simulation. A naval simulation too. That means you have to think and be patient. And that's not what the gaming market wants.

Even if five times as many people knew about DW through a great advertising campaign i doubt many more people would have bought it.

We are lucky to have what we do now.

[Kapitan]

probly do have more marketing experiance (me its just buy things sell things thats it)

and i rekon more people would by the game if it was advertised a bit more im fact im quite sure of it

[LuftWolf]

I am foremost a Combat Mission player with Band of Brothers. www.webandofbrothers.de :up:

Combat Mission is Battlefront (BFC)'s sugar baby.

Around 1999, CM Beyond Overlord came out, went "huge", nearly cornering the 3-d non-RTS tactical market. Then came CM Barbarossa to Berlin. These game were sold via a combination of store and website.

The CM Afrika Corps came out. This was sold entirely on the website. This product did exceptionally well. After CMAK, BFC started getting a lot more third party developers to publish with them, solely on the website.

This is a fantastic job of marketting themselves by BFC, leading developers into thinking that their success with CMAK could be general success.

However, the CM series is special. It is CLEARLY an unrivaled product in its niche, with no bugs and virtually 100% community support. This leads me to think that almost everyone who plays CM bought CMAK.

However, DW is different because the SC community is not committed to DW, and it does not enjoy the same "1000lbs gorrilla" status in it's niche. Thus, because SCS missed the SC community as a whole and failed to market to people outside the community, who may not have bought it anyway, sales are dissappointing.

How was SCS to know that the SC community wouldn't want much to do with DW? At least, that's the feeling I get, coming to it rather late...

[XabbaRus]

Huh, the SC community not interested in DW?

Very odd. There is the interest but because in some ways the leap isn't like from 688i to SC then it might not seem so great.

I think the whole forum is slowing down but mainly due to people busy with real life. It is an inconvenient thing.

I am still holding out for DWX but again real life.

[LuftWolf]

Huh, the SC community not interested in DW?

I am referring to the chilly reception that DW seemed to get from the hardcore simmers, probably the target audience for DW that SCS had intended. I am strictly talking about my impressions, but I have never seen negativity from a gaming community directed towards a developer for introducing a new product as I have seen here.

[Kapitan]

if DW came out in the shops id say it go off like rocket ok ok it wont sell like FS2004 ect but it will sell i know it will not many people like buying off the internet

[Bellman]

[quote]
How was SCS to know that the SC community wouldn't want much to do with DW? At least, that's the feeling I get, coming to it rather late...
[quote]

Taking up the last point the SC community are sub-divers with a high proportion of semi and full hardcore.

Fleet players now have some extra 'fun' diversions in DW to keep them going but I suspect generaly most ex SCX2
players are adopting a wait and see policy. The game is not very attractive to them given its faults/bugs/ exploding cms etc...
The patch and DWX are vital.

Personaly as a sub only player, in this waiting period I have returned to SCX for my diving
and use DW to learn scenario design in the hope that..............

I am sure that this is not the "Forlorn Hope' who, as you know, were the band of 'volunteers' sent to
breach the walls. (First over the top) None usually survived.

But I am an optimist. :up:
[quote]

[Kapitan]

i too am waiting for this patch because i lent my sub command to a friend i can not play SCX id rather play that at this moment than DW untill of course DWX comes out

[XabbaRus]

What negativity? Any examples?

In terms of submarines there is no difference between DW and SC...except there have been tweaks with the environment.

The big thing was the new playables which have made a big difference.

The only big goof was the sound vs speed bug but SCS fixed that very quickly.

If you are talking about Boomerang and his posts, then you have to ignore him as he speaks rubbish.

Generally I think most people are happy with the sim.

[LuftWolf]

Thank you. :up:

I'm still looking for these "unplayable" bugs... :zzz:

[Kapitan]

In terms of submarines there is no difference between DW and SC

erm the akula in sc went to 660 meters and with SCX2C it went to 700 meters

im not talking about boomerang he is not mentioned till now its just other peoples points of view

[PeriscopeDepth]

if DW came out in the shops id say it go off like rocket ok ok it wont sell like FS2004 ect but it will sell i know it will not many people like buying off the internet

If it was an shops they would probably sell a few more units, but they wouldn't make as much money. Using the battlefront model nearly all the money goes to SCS. And that means better community support and a better chance of addons. Was Jamie or his SC counterpart posting here when EA managed things? Was there a patch suggestion thread that we KNOW Sonalysts monitors? Did Sonalysts answer to the customers or to EA then? Those are the kinds of things that make battlefront AWESOME IMO.

[Bellman]

Agreed, but somehow they need to spread the word and raise the games profile in the market place.
Many people post that they did'nt know the game existed until they stumble upon it on the internet.

But the margins are pretty horendous in the general retail game market area !!

I am sure SSs main profit thrust is in the professional military war sim area. Other houses have gone in this
direction - egs. Harpoon Pro and Steel Beasts Pro (?)

I feel the communitys input in field refining DW and DWX content will be very constructive in product development
for the Pro markets. Given that perspective the future of DW may well lie in the hands of its existing user community.

[LuftWolf]

I think its import to be nice to Jamie and the people at SCS.

I think that's pretty simple.

I don't know why they would want to work with people who give them hell and only buy the game once, as opposed to their industry/government clients who treat them like professionals and keep paying them big money every time they answer the phone or an email. ;)

[TLAM Strike]

Maybe BF should package DW and T-72 in one pack, like “The Red Storm Rising Battle Pack” or some such.

Just my wackjob idea... :roll:

[MarkShot]

My situation with purchasing DW is:

(1) I am primarily interested in subs at the moment. So, as far as I can tell DW does not add much there (except a kilo with real battery considerations) and there are a number of items that have moved DW backwards in terms of the sub game.

(2) One could argue that SCXIIC/SCU is a better sub game than stock DW is even with some fixes from Sonalysts.

(3) There are a wealth of scenarios for SC and SCXIIC/SCU ... most of which I have yet to play. It's going to take me a long time to get through all of them.

(4) I don't find enough time to play the few excellent games I already have. So, it's hard to think of adding another one.

(5) It's not clear what DW's future is (patches and mods). If I wait and it never gets beyond the current stage then it was best not to buy and hope. If the patches improve the game and DWX takes it to a new level, then I can pick it up later. If the publisher wasn't Battlefront, then I could probably get it new in a year for 25% the original price.

---

So, at the moment, the only reason I can see to get DW is to explore modern naval warfare beyond PD. However, at this point in time, at PD, I am already in over my head. :)

---

I am not knocking DW or Sonalysts, but simply sharing my own motivations for purchasing or not at the present time. If DW had represented a major advance in sub simulation over SC, then I might have considered purchasing it and skipping investing my time with SC. But that does not seem to be the case.

[MarkShot]

One thing I can say is that I may well buy DW in the future. This is as opposed to SHIII which no matter how good it might be with or without mods; it has Starforce insidiously buried within it. (I would much rather continue to play AOD, SH1, and SH2/PA - then risk the health of my PC or compromise my principles for a game.)

[Mercedes]

The impression I get in regards to further support from SCS towards DW in the form of patchs additional marketing is that the game has decended the list of priorities for the company. Resources get allocated to new contracts or to contracts nearing crunch time. When you realise that to spend anything less than a fortune on extra promotion will be effectivelly flogging a dead horse then you just move to other areas that would benefit you more with comparable effort/expenditure.

I'm not being critical of SCS here, infact I think they are quite good and achieved a good personal connection via posts by company people on the forums.

I myself am a projects manager for an engineering company that also has a fair number of subsideries that fall within my influence. So although engineering and software development and marketing are very different from each other, there are principles in both that are common. If i started persuing a project that turned out to be an underperformer and giving it higher priority than other more viable projects, I would most likely be marched up to the CEO's office and told to explain myself. When millions of dollars are at stake people tend to lose all standards of politeness for some reason.

[Kapitan]

at heart i can be a nice person or a down right arse hole at the moment im in the middle im annoyed that DWX hasnt come out but im also glad that the new patch is already here but im also glad that its all being worked on so all round its more posative than negative on my part

[Overkill]

Maybe BF should package DW and T-72 in one pack, like “The Red Storm Rising Battle Pack” or some such.

Just my wackjob idea...


Actually that sounds like a good idea to me, TLAM. Especially when sales start to slow down for those games.

[Kapitan]

hmm yeah it does

[Skybird]

Let's face it, DW is very much a niche-product, and the already narrow niche it occupies is made even smaller by the fact that SC is still popular and played by not a few. For those players amongst these that hold a primary interest, or a more or less exclusive interest, in subs only (like myself), DW does not add so much that goes beyond SC. I never was interested in Destroyer Command, for example, and my interest in the Perry in DW is existant, but small for that reason. The helo and the Orion doesn't attract me at all. What is left for me is an additional new sub, and a refining of the general submarine simulation elements - i hope. Also, since half a year now we wait for the announced (final?) patch, they mentioned their reasons while it lasts so long, these reasons are understandable, but their reasons is their business, not their potential customer's business. A final condition of the game that needs no more patches still could make me ordering it. But currently, for the reasons I explained, I just can ask: why should I buy now, in advance of a final patch? I am beyond the age where I like to constantly patch a thing that I fully payed for. And what about data base edits, like the weapons data fix by Amizaur et. al. that came out some days ago? It sounded very interesting, but it probably will need to be redone with patch 1.02. But that kind of hobby, constantly dancing with my installation, is something that I am not so much interesed in as well. Falcon was enough :lol:

I think they made just some sort of miscalculation when estimating how big the general interest for a multi-platform sim of this complexity would be. some months ago (I vaguely remember that I mentioned it back then), I described the sim to some friends and people, and their initial medium interest immediately dropped when I mentioned the 500+ pages manual and the complexity. These guys usually play sims like Falcon, Flanker, IL2 and Steel Beasts, very much like myself. Complexity and thick manuals also attract flightsim lovers in general, but the interest for subs is significantly less, and fans of this matter are not as often to be met. This community here may not like it, since it is "the core" of sub-simulation-fans, but this community cannot compare in size to the fans of complex flightsims, I think by far it can not. So the bitter truth probably is that the market for a sim like DW wasn't as big as expected from the very beginning, and SC from the beginning was in still too strong rivalry to it, decreasing it's chances even further.

I personally am about to run out of patience, and interest, the wait for the final patching slowly but constantly reaches the time odyssey I remember from SC, and even if this is the kind they usually do their business - it is not the style of working that I >>>as a paying customer<<< can find satisfying - not for that price.

I am not so sure that more adverts and promoting would have changed the general sale numbers so much for the better. People that I ask about it, and told about it, usually had heared of DW. Potential customers do know that the game can be bought, and many also know battlefront.com. It seems they simply have not as much general interest to buy DW, for whatever their reasons are.

In shorter words: maybe Sonalysts went to the wrong party, and also brought the wrong music with them, and now they wonder why they find it difficult to find as many partners for dancing as they expected.

This thread is not meant as rethorical bashing by me, I just explain the situation as sober and fact-oriented as possible. Since I have not invested any money so far, I am at complete peace with Sonalyst. I prefer it this way, compared to the year I was highly busy with SC. When that final patch came out, frustration had already brought down what was left of my interest in SC. So this time I am far better off :)

[Sea Demon]

Go ahead and crucify me, but I gotta defend Sonalysts at the moment. Geez, this game only came out a few months ago. I have yet to master all 7 playable platforms, and I'm having a blast playing this game. I'm not sure how their decision with Battlefront will affect future add-ons, but I say give it time. Patience, grasshoppers. :D Remember how long we were clamoring for the stock DW in these forums? It took a while to produce. I'm convinced you guys would enjoy DW alot more if you weren't looking for so many reasons to complain.....Geesh :roll:

We just got DW not too long ago and everybody's demanding more.

Flame away. :D

Sea Demon

[Skybird]

but im also glad that the new patch is already here but im also glad that its all being worked on so all round its more posative than negative on my part

I am confused, did I miss the ringing of the bell? 1.02 is out? Or still developed? Or do you talk of a completely different thing when saying "new patch is already here"?

[Kapitan]

no i mean a new patch ut i was meaning the V1.01 not the 1.02

[MarkShot]

I think an interesting issue is clear from this thread:

To digress for a minute: In a recent issue of PC Mag, one of the articles made the point that the greatest competitor for Windows Vista sales will be Windows XP and other prior versions of Windows; not Linux or MacOS.

I think that the same could be said of DW when one looks at the subsurface warfare aspect. DW is in competition with SC and dare I say SC+SCXIIC/SCU (and the fact that SC has matured and has a large base of missions).

It was probably a tough marketting decision whether to take the next release after SC broader or deeper. Clearly, it was decided to go broader. I guess time will tell if that was the correct path.

---

By the way, I remember the long wait for SC patches and SCXIIC/SCU. It didn't bother me much, since I had yet to get very interested and went off to other things. Finally, when I came backs years later, a fantastic game and body of work was available.

These days I am playing quite a few older games and I have to say the whole idea is very attractive. Very little money wasted; the product is fully mature (no frustrations), lots of resources, and you can quickly determine whether you should invest your time/money or not. No need to hang around hoping for everything to come together one day. Also, it puts a damper on the need to always get faster CPUs and GPUs; which can also save lots of money. The only big negative to older games are: the community has already moved on and support is harder to find and if you like to play online you missed the "golden age".

In fact, it has recently dawned on me that some of the "classic" older games if you look past the graphics are truly superb. New often doesn't mean better game experience, but frequently really just equates to impressive graphics.

[Bellman]

:) Nice idea TLAM - there seems some symmetry between sub and tank sims.
I am sure there are plenty out there who play both.

Mark - the marketing guys at SS (?) will not like this but your right about old games. Right now I prefer SCX to DW
temporarily I hope, but for sub divers this was an ace product with bags of good missions.
The advantage of the old sims like Falcon, Harpoon, Steel Beasts, and MS Flight Sim is that each has evolved
into a polished product with a vibrant and still very active support base.

These products stuck with their initial design and game structure concepts. OK MS FS added
bells and whistles and new toys.

I have DW but will only stop diving SCX when DW is patched and then the jury is still out until DWX.

[Skybird]

By the way, I remember the long wait for SC patches and SCXIIC/SCU. It didn't bother me much, since I had yet to get very interested and went off to other things. Finally, when I came backs years later, a fantastic game and body of work was available.

These days I am playing quite a few older games and I have to say the whole idea is very attractive. Very little money wasted; the product is fully mature (no frustrations), lots of resources, and you can quickly determine whether you should invest your time/money or not. No need to hang around hoping for everything to come together one day. Also, it puts a damper on the need to always get faster CPUs and GPUs; which can also save lots of money. The only big negative to older games are: the community has already moved on and support is harder to find and if you like to play online you missed the "golden age".

In fact, it has recently dawned on me that some of the "classic" older games if you look past the graphics are truly superb. New often doesn't mean better game experience, but frequently really just equates to impressive graphics.

All too true! :yep: Cannot agree more. Playing some old stuff here, too. also doing that, because sometimes within their genre a better title never cam out.

[JamesT73J]

It's the same old crap when people have got nothing better to do. Change the record.

If you're unhappy with the scenarios available for DW, learn to make your own, and distribute them.

As for DW somehow being less popular than SC. Total bollocks - I was able to get more online matches in a week with DW than I'd managed in six months with Sub Command - I'd assert that the community is considerably stronger, helped somewhat by the fact that DW's online performance is on a different planet to SC's.

Anyone who thinks SC's evolution was a bed of roses obviously wasn't around in late '01 when the community was awaiting a patch - the bitching was unbelievable - and DW hit the market as a far more complete product, thanks to a more inclusive testing program that used people from the community.

DW is a superb product, I haven't had cause to go back to SC/SCXIIC and I don't plan to. If certain elements of the community got off their collective arses and started being more positive, things would improve.

I fear that the issue here is that people have become spoilt.

Cheers


James

[Bellman]

:) Mmmm very interesting turn of phrase. :lol:

Personaly spending a lot of time learning DW mission design at present.:up:

The New Forest is nice and cool and shady at this time of year. ;)
Quite soothes the fevered brow.:-j

[Skybird]

James,

Any more bright comments...? :88)

If DW is so popular, then I wonder why Jamie indicated some weeks ago that sales numbers are lagging behind hopes, and why not only a few players are hesitent to buy, or have said in the past they shelved it until a patch comes out, I remember several names in this forum having said so. DW is popular for a majority of people who bought it (fine, but: what a surprise). If as many people bought DW as have bought SC back then is another question. And that SC was not a "bed of roses" I certainly have a good reason to remember all to well. ;) Recent comments here indicated that several people remember that as well. maybe you should read more carefully before attcking people for something that noone said, or indicated.

And what had the missions of DW to do with it...?

Cool down. Tone here was pretty constructive and sober, until you fired your comment. Maybe you should "change your own record" before demanding this from others. Or do you have "nothing better to do" yourself...?

[JamesT73J]

Or do you have "nothing better to do" yourself...?

No. I'm quite happy to leave you criticising Sonalysts for producing a game you've not even bought, as experience suggests it's highly unlikely anything I write will change your mind.

Ta

James

[Skybird]

Or do you have "nothing better to do" yourself...?

No. I'm quite happy to leave you criticising Sonalysts for producing a game you've not even bought, as experience suggests it's highly unlikely anything I write will change your mind.

Ta

James

Aha. And with regard to DW, what was it that I critizised SA with? Can't remember right now. I made assumptions, basing on obervations of feedback, and status. Both lead me to my decision to wait. Critizism is something different.

As I said on page 1, I am completely at peace with SA, for I have not lost any money yet. I take note of the feedback pro >>AND<< contra, I feel I am not yet convinced, and I feel my interest is slowly fading, due to the months going by. Period.

Make them install a guaranteed money-back-policy if one is not satifsied with the produt's shape, and I will buy immediately ;) You know as well as I do, that they wouldn't do that, so what is it with your remark that I even have not bought it? :lol:

[LuftWolf]

There's a saying I live by: "don't let a person who thinks something I value is worthless have anything to do with changing it." ;)

[timmyg00]

so what is it with your remark that I even have not bought it? :lol:I believe he refers to the widely-held belief that a person has no business commenting on something with which he/she has no experience, and in this we both refer to Dangerous Waters. It's a bit like complaining about the government when one has not gone to the voting both. Or, put another way: Did you buy the groceries? No? Did you cook the meal? No? Then don't complain about dinner.

And that SC was not a "bed of roses" I certainly have a good reason to remember all to well. ;) Which has what relevance, exactly, to Dangerous Waters?

Make them install a guaranteed money-back-policy if one is not satifsied with the produt's shape, and I will buy immediately ;) You know as well as I do, that they wouldn't do that What game producer would do that??

Furthermore, don't act like the innocent by saying you're not bashing Sonalysts or a sim you've not yet bought, or even a sim that the community pulled together and turned into our own like SC. You only come here to carp when someone has something negative to say about SC, DW or Sonalysts - as evidenced by the fact you haven't bought it, because if you had, you'd not see so much to complain about. Wait, I take that back - you'd complain about a sunset.

TG

[Bellman]

:lol: I cant remember the source but some research was done which showed that when women conversed
they gossiped and when men conversed they bellyache.
Well that was money wasted to confirm the bl***y obvious. :arrgh!:

We grumble . we complain. Here we call it the Victor Meldrew syndrome . Curmudgeonly ''mature'' guy in comedy series. :damn:
Age a factor ? :yep:

I love MP but currently cant play (router) - I am sure DW MP is a blast - cant wait. But SP is another thing and
force meseur SC/SCX is only a bolt hole temporarily. :lol: While I polish up new Ak skills (?)

I am sorry if James was upset - we do resent any implied attack against the things we cherish.
He is enthusiastic and committed to DW MP and I am sure soon many more of us will join him. :sunny:

[Skybird]

And that SC was not a "bed of roses" I certainly have a good reason to remember all to well. ;) Which has what relevance, exactly, to Dangerous Waters?

Ask him. He referred to SC's developement/patching not beeing a bed of roses, as if anyone had said something different. Noone had.

You guys are really trying hard to make what I said look queer. But one can see that often: that a player likes something, and now he is pressing hard that others have to like it, too, and see it his way.

Yes, once a month, or longer, I pop up here and comment, but I scan the forum constantly. It's just that I do not engage in debates about this or that detail of gameplay. I do not have that game, currently, so hwo should I go into it'S details? (It's not details that irritate me when still not buying.) My point of interest is the future remedy to the things that were reported here in this forum as things worth to be fixed. This my interest is understandable, for if they get fixed, I will rethink my position on buying.

I HAVE NOT BASHED SA in this thread, hammer this into your fanatical little anti-Skybird-head, will you? ;) this topic asked if the sale policy of SA with DW maybe was unwise, if there was a lack of advertisment maybe, or if the shipping model was the best option, and on that I commented in my first reply, before you guys started to bring this thing down again, and I commented on the niche-segment the game covers, still beeing rivalled by SC, I reported that many people know of the game and still don't buy it, and I thought loud that not only SC and the complexity may have something to do with it, but also the after half a year still missing final patch - as one factor amongst others. Jamie admitted some weeks ago that things don'T sell as well as they hoped. Why this is so is the theme of this topic, not Skybird. But what makes skybird still beeing hesitant to buy NOW nevertheless may shed some light on one of the reasons, a reason that obviously is shared by many others.

The comment on money-back: that is my reply to your guy's queer logic that one can only judge if it is worth to buy if one buys it, because if you find out that you better would have not and kept weaiting, you will be left with the damage alone. Of course you think BEFORE you buy, for the reason that you have not back-deal-insurance. Don't understand your complaints on that.

you like the game like it is and spend money for it, okay, no problem for me. currently I have doubts that is is worth for me, you read: I speak of >>ME<<, to spend 65 bucks for it, and I gave my reasons for that in two threads earlier, some weeks and months ago, and touched them shortly here again. Now could this be okay for you, please? ;)

I would like to refer to Mark's answer some postings above. There were some things worth to be think about in his reply, and that maybe are part of the answer to this thread'S internal question, why DW does not sell as expected. This is the thing that we discuss here - not Skybird.

[MarkShot]

Looks like we are heading to a Sea State of 5 here.

Well, I don't have an axe to grind for or against DW. (I admit to having an axe to grind with Starforce and I hope by my personal decision to not buy any products which use it and inform others of the issues that publishers will abandon such technology. Which, if you wish, may be deemed an negative posture vis-a-vis SH3.)

Yes, I have not purchased DW. However, I did try the demo, read reviews, read Nottefallmappe, and follow the BFC and Subsim DW forums. So, I would not consider myself ignorant of DW's new features and how it compares to SC in the common platforms.

I see no reason why I cannot or should not participate in this forum. I do my best to maintain my manners being respectful of other members, moderators, and developers.

I think it would be a sad precedent if forum access/participation were to be restricted to "customers only"; not that it could be done, but I think it would do more harm than good to the community, publishers, and developers.

If I have offended anyone here, I apologize.

[Jamie]

OK, I'll make a few comments here and then let you guys resume your discussion...

Mods (SCX and DWX) - I think the important thing to note here is that the architecture is set up (with the Models and Databases) such that the gameplay experience can be totally transformed. SCX was created by 1000's of hours of hard work and should be applauded (as I have many times). However, different people prefer different play styles... I have received numerous e-mails from customers who enjoyed the stock v1.08 of SC and were grateful that we did not make it as hard to detect the enemy as SCX was. These players' hard-earned money is just as valuable as the hardcore player's, so should we just ignore them? I contend that that is what makes SCX such an invaluable alternative and addition. The hardcore players are presented with an option for SP and MP that many feel as invaluable... as do I. I'm not sure what the status is on DWX, but when the time comes I can assure you that we will do the very best that we can to support their efforts.

Retail Distribution - If we didn't feel that DW had a really good chance to succeed in retail then we would not be pursuing it (especially with a smartly designed game box full of review quotes, that would certainly help :P). We feel that this is one of our strongest titles that we've released and hope that the retail audience will appreciate the innovative and distinct gameplay style which is offers. Once I have news, I will report it... I promise. ;)

Feel free to resume your SC and DW criticisms... I apologize for the interuption. :cool:

[Jamie]

I see no reason why I cannot or should not participate in this forum. I do my best to maintain my manners being respectful of other members, moderators, and developers.

Hey Markshot,

Like Skybird, we just must work harder to convince you, that is all... You are more than welcome to express you opinions, and I appreciate your feedback, always. :know:

[LuftWolf]

Perhaps that retail box could contain an insert and a back cover blurb about the wealth of online resources available for DW by a supportive community of dedicated players, modders, and mission designers. :up:

[Skybird]

Mark,

again I find myself fully agreeing with what you said (especially with regard to starForce :lol: - i do the same like you, and here and at simhq I already got accused of beeing anti-GTR or anti-SH3, for these are the two SF games that I bought, and will be the last ones).

Jamie,

I tend to think that you understood that I am not personally angry at you or SA. I also hope for no added stuff, and mods, in 1.02 - just fix the last loose ends (that's all what we are talking about, right?) that are there according to the feedback here in this forum, and maybe do so before Xmas - and I'll happily come aboard. But after many angry experiences and dissapointments with games in the last 15 or more years, it is a principle thing for me in the main not to become a paying customer before something is completed, it's not just SA and DW. I violated this rule just some days ago with F4AF - and consequenctly was greeted with a massive stepback in what had been acchieved in mods in recent years. Sticking to this principle to wait (like I did not with F4AF :lol:) you could call a policy of mine, like you and SA have yours. ;)

>>Friendly<< greetings,
Sky

[John Channing]

Some of the comments here remind me of the old definition of a consultant...

A person who can tell you 300 ways to make love to a woman, but has never had a girlfriend.

Or put another way, some people never let their lack of knowledge keep them from forming and expressing an opinion.

JCC

[Skybird]

Some of the comments here remind me of the old definition of a consultant...

A person who can tell you 300 ways to make love to a woman, but has never had a girlfriend.

Or put another way, some people never let their lack of knowledge keep them from forming and expressing an opinion.

JCC

A fine excuse for always buying blindly without asking before. Salesmen must love you! ;) Are you one yourself, maybe? :lol:

My God, what a Kindergarden.

I wonder why I do not read printed PC-mags anymore - maybe because the reviews there are also very tame and never ask critical questions, showing the light, but only rarely the shadow.

Or is it that feedback of every player/owner who reported about some small or not so small things in DW in past month necessarily must have been wrong - wrong because not beeing totally enthusiastic about it ? :doh:

Before someone thinks he must carry on directly or indirectly pointing finger at me for my "bashinh of SA" or critizising the going of DW (both never took place), this is my original answer in this thread, beyond which I had no intention to write anything, if I wouldn't have been personally confronted with some critizism that had not too much to do with my original text, I print it in full length so that noone can say he is overcharged in seaching it himself:
-----
"Let's face it, DW is very much a niche-product, and the already narrow niche it occupies is made even smaller by the fact that SC is still popular and played by not a few. For those players amongst these that hold a primary interest, or a more or less exclusive interest, in subs only (like myself), DW does not add so much that goes beyond SC. I never was interested in Destroyer Command, for example, and my interest in the Perry in DW is existant, but small for that reason. The helo and the Orion doesn't attract me at all. What is left for me is an additional new sub, and a refining of the general submarine simulation elements - i hope. Also, since half a year now we wait for the announced (final?) patch, they mentioned their reasons while it lasts so long, these reasons are understandable, but their reasons is their business, not their potential customer's business. A final condition of the game that needs no more patches still could make me ordering it. But currently, for the reasons I explained, I just can ask: why should I buy now, in advance of a final patch? I am beyond the age where I like to constantly patch a thing that I fully payed for. And what about data base edits, like the weapons data fix by Amizaur et. al. that came out some days ago? It sounded very interesting, but it probably will need to be redone with patch 1.02. But that kind of hobby, constantly dancing with my installation, is something that I am not so much interesed in as well. Falcon was enough

I think they made just some sort of miscalculation when estimating how big the general interest for a multi-platform sim of this complexity would be. some months ago (I vaguely remember that I mentioned it back then), I described the sim to some friends and people, and their initial medium interest immediately dropped when I mentioned the 500+ pages manual and the complexity. These guys usually play sims like Falcon, Flanker, IL2 and Steel Beasts, very much like myself. Complexity and thick manuals also attract flightsim lovers in general, but the interest for subs is significantly less, and fans of this matter are not as often to be met. This community here may not like it, since it is "the core" of sub-simulation-fans, but this community cannot compare in size to the fans of complex flightsims, I think by far it can not. So the bitter truth probably is that the market for a sim like DW wasn't as big as expected from the very beginning, and SC from the beginning was in still too strong rivalry to it, decreasing it's chances even further.

I personally am about to run out of patience, and interest, the wait for the final patching slowly but constantly reaches the time odyssey I remember from SC, and even if this is the kind they usually do their business - it is not the style of working that I >>>as a paying customer<<< can find satisfying - not for that price.

I am not so sure that more adverts and promoting would have changed the general sale numbers so much for the better. People that I ask about it, and told about it, usually had heared of DW. Potential customers do know that the game can be bought, and many also know battlefront.com. It seems they simply have not as much general interest to buy DW, for whatever their reasons are.

In shorter words: maybe Sonalysts went to the wrong party, and also brought the wrong music with them, and now they wonder why they find it difficult to find as many partners for dancing as they expected.

This thread is not meant as rethorical bashing by me, I just explain the situation as sober and fact-oriented as possible. Since I have not invested any money so far, I am at complete peace with Sonalyst. I prefer it this way, compared to the year I was highly busy with SC. When that final patch came out, frustration had already brought down what was left of my interest in S"

-----

Anyone else, or could we leave it to that now...? Almost the whole second page of this thread has been unnecessary.

[Takeda Shingen]

Anyone else, or could we leave it to that now...? Almost the whole second page of this thread has been unnecessary.

And yet, you continue to respond. Perhaps you are seeking the final word. It does not become you, Skybird, regardless of the topic of the moment. If the discussion has passed into the realm of futility, why continue the discussion?

[timmyg00]

And that SC was not a "bed of roses" I certainly have a good reason to remember all to well. ;) Which has what relevance, exactly, to Dangerous Waters?

Ask him. He referred to SC's developement/patching not beeing a bed of roses, as if anyone had said something different. Noone had. Fine, I missed that. My mistake.

You guys are really trying hard to make what I said look queer. But one can see that often: that a player likes something, and now he is pressing hard that others have to like it, too, and see it his way. What you said, and keep saying and saying and saying, IS queer. This is the main point that we "anti-Skybird" (or perhaps more correctly put, "pro-common-sense") types are trying to get across, and that you continually refuse to address: Anything you have to say about Dangerous Waters, or about Sonalysts with regard to DW, is based solely on hearsay. In a courtroom (in many countries, at least), hearsay is not admissible as testimony, and in the court of public opinion, i.e. here, the jury, i.e. the rest of us, look upon your opinions with a jaundiced eye and, as I believe I have said before, a fist-sized grain of salt. And nobody here is pressing anyone else to like anything, so stop playing the victim and acting as if we're a bunch of numb-skulled DW fascists who want you to "conform or die". We're just pointing out a glaring incongruity in the fabric of your opinion.


But what makes skybird still beeing hesitant to buy NOW nevertheless may shed some light on one of the reasons, a reason that obviously is shared by many others. Oh yes, dozens... hundreds maybe... they're just crawling out of the woodwork like bugs...

I gave my reasons for that in two threads earlier, some weeks and months ago, and touched them shortly here again. No doubt you will continue re-explain your reasons ad nauseam, anytime you see the opportunity. Thanks, we appreciate that. We understand. Now read this carefully - You're completely entitled to your reasons and to expound on them here; nobody would deny that. We knew about your reasons before, we know about them now, and we're not likely to forget... is that enough to convince you that we don't need to hear them again, or will you find some other clever way to insinuate them into another thread?

I wonder why I do not read printed PC-mags anymore - maybe because the reviews there are also very tame and never ask critical questions, showing the light, but only rarely the shadow.

Or is it that feedback of every player/owner who reported about some small or not so small things in DW in past month necessarily must have been wrong - wrong because not beeing totally enthusiastic about it ? Stop treating us like we're idiots just because we enjoy the game in its current state. Nobody here believes that the sim is perfect, and we'll all acknowledge that it has its flaws that we'd like to see fixed. However, if you want to think you've cornered the market on critical thinking around here, go right ahead. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I HAVE NOT BASHED SA in this threadRight. Perhaps "bashing" is too harsh a word. Certainly the word "criticism" could be applied, if the veiled little jabs you take at "SA" are not to be considered "bashing".

Here's what I took issue with that prompted me to respond in the first place:
Any more bright comments...? :88) Uncalled for.

maybe you should read more carefully before attcking people for something that noone said, or indicated. Whom did he attack??

Cool down. Tone here was pretty constructive and sober, until you fired your comment. Ah, as if HE was the one who stirred things up :roll:


Yes, I have not purchased DW. However, I did try the demo, read reviews, read Nottefallmappe, and follow the BFC and Subsim DW forums. So, I would not consider myself ignorant of DW's new features and how it compares to SC in the common platforms. I have to disagree with you there. Many of the features and capabilities of DW have to be experienced to be believed, and to compare with SC. A complete comparison cannot be performed, considering that there are 3 playable platform types that simply don't exist in SC! And since the demo only contains one of them - the simplest one - it can't possibly convey a full sense of the advances this game has over SC. And with regard to reading forums - well, to me, that's hearsay if you don't own the game, and I've already spewed forth with my opinion on hearsay :P

I see no reason why I cannot or should not participate in this forum. I do my best to maintain my manners being respectful of other members, moderators, and developers.

I think it would be a sad precedent if forum access/participation were to be restricted to "customers only"; not that it could be done, but I think it would do more harm than good to the community, publishers, and developers. Whoa, slow down! I don't think anyone made any such suggestion!

I'd be happy to let this thread get back on-topic, and I apologize for ranting a bit - but no apologies for the content.

TG

[Sea Demon]

:up: to timmyg00. **applause** :yep: :up:

Sea Demon

[Bellman]

We've had a few summer storms here - bin rattling the slates on my new roof.

James T73s gone for a cool beer.

Sea Demon reveals his inclination to 'room' and 'tongue.' :lol:
(Disclaimer - these SD terms are jocular and in no way intended to offend - 'Chickens coming home to roost eh ? ) :yep: :ping: :-j

[OneShot]

@TG :up: amen to that ...

Anyway, back on topic ... ok, DW is only available on the net - which of course prevents the regular guy to take note of it and buy it or maybe the occassional grandma to pick it up as a gift for her grandson (who btw. has no interest in it whatsoever) - so what ? Lets face it, this game is a niche game and those who are interested in it, will take the hurdle and buy it by way of BFC no matter what.

As far as publishing goes, I know at least two major PC Gaming Mags in Germany who had reviews on DW (not so bad either), so the average gamer at least knows about it (hopefully) and if it sparks interest then he might even try the demo / buy it.

Sofar SCS hasnt (I believe) put a lot of money into marketing the game, but got some (if not all the bang) for the buck they wanted. Putting the game in shops would have cost a lot more, and probably wouldnt have yielded any better results, most likely the results would have been worse because they need to put more money into this retail-lane then into BFC.

If I remember correctly it was Jamie who explained the whole stuff in another thread quite to my (and most others) satisfaction, so lets not beat this horse anymore and move on to other topics. SCS has decided to follow this way, so stop talking bout that and lets see where this leads ...

Now on a more personal note : DW is a great game and with the exception of the occasional glitch (which mostly is only annoying) I have yet to encounter serious problems stopping me from playing or denying me fun in the game. More to the contrary, right now I would love to play MP games, but cant due to other commitments, but I'm eager to get back to playing once its possible. As far as "bugs" or problems with this (or any game for that matter) go, my opinion is, that only those who actually play the game should comment on them, and not somebody who just reads about them - regardless how long he plays PC games (he hasnt played this one).

Just my 2 cents

[Beer]

As end users we play the game, and we market it as well, our threads or comments are read by potiential buyers.

This game gets a hearty thumbs up from this former P-3 TACCO. There is no other game that a civilian, with any desire to put some time in game (yes it have a steep learning curve...but every review I have read has said this right out of the gate), can learn the real life issues and how too's of airborne ASW for a mere $50, and be able to do it in a multiplayer/multicrew fashion. Couple glitches and game balance issues sure, like no harpoon for the P-3 and a super maverick instead (well it is harpoon like...) sure...its a game, $50 for DW your getting a great simulation that you can use real life tactics and theory to hunt and kill the enemy.

This game is good enough (from the P-3C point of view), that you could get your flight station, TACCO, Acoustic and Non-Acoustic operator in a multicrew online game with voice comms like Teamspeak or RW and practice for upcoming qualifications...I really wish this was availible when I was flying.

Naysayers simply don't have to buy it.

Give SA and their business plan a chance.

Cheers
Beer

[John Channing]

Some of the comments here remind me of the old definition of a consultant...

A person who can tell you 300 ways to make love to a woman, but has never had a girlfriend.

Or put another way, some people never let their lack of knowledge keep them from forming and expressing an opinion.

JCC

A fine excuse for always buying blindly without asking before. Salesmen must love you! ;) Are you one yourself, maybe? :lol:



As a matter of fact I am (well... currently Sales and Marketing Management) and have been for over 25 years. Do you have a problem with Salespeople?

But, as usual, you seem to spend a little too much time typing and not quit enough reading.

It is one thing to garner the facts from other people and sources and make a decision to participate (or not), but quite another to go through the same exercise, come to your decision, and then seek out every opportunity to inject that decision into every conversation you can. The former is intellegent consumerism. The latter is just trying to attract attention to yourself.

You refer to this place as a Kindergarten. The last time I visited a Kindergarten there were a couple of screaming children, kicking and shouting in an attempt to become the center of attention, and detracting from the enjoyment of the others.

Perhaps your analogy is valid.

JCC

JCC

[MarkShot]

Well, at the risk of voicing an opinion and being single out as a non-customer (don't I get some points for having purchased SC? and I payed full price too!) ...

I do think the game was adequately publicized if the primary customer base are those who previously have some interest in the naval warfare genre. If you were a strategy/hardcore/grognard wargamer or naval enthusiast and regular user of the Internet to follow your hobby, then any number of the main sites for this type of thing had given this game some play.

In terms of impulse buyers at the checkout line, this was a stealth offering. However, it is unlikely that someone with no prior interest other than "cool box art" would really get past the learning curve this game entails. Besides the cost benefit analysis of advertising/sales to such customers, if I was developer, I don't know if I would have wanted to achieve sales without turning the purchasers (impulse sales) into a loyal customer base. It seems Sonalysts is in this for the long haul and perhaps the marketting of the game reflected such a philosophy.

[LuftWolf]

For what it's worth, I believe that it's possible that SCS knew exactly what the state of DW was when they released it through BFC, planning the whole time to go retail when: a sufficient online community had built up loyalty to the brand, the game was "finished." So, while the game is "late beta", why not make some money, get some others to help with the testing (online buyers), and get the community that can later help sell the game in retail, and help the total newbies learn how to play? and get some valuable feedback from the forums along the way?

This is wild speculation of course and could even be taken as being "naughty" on behalf of SCS if it was their plan, so I don't hold too closely to any of this. Even if it were true, I don't care, as I have the game NOW and am thoroughly enjoying it.

However, if that is the case, they may not be in any rush to release the v1.02 patch before the retail version is ready.

Just some jawflapping about an idea that came to me on the crapper...

[Skybird]

John,

I quote a PM that I sent one participant of this thread today. It does not contain personal sensitive data, and so the receiver will not be angry if I made this letter public, I hope, it's also no special letter, but it makes clear what irritates me in this thread so much, and why I stubbornly defend myself against what I regard as unjustified attacks. It just spares me the time to type it all in different phrases again when just paste and copying it. BTW, you said I voice the same opinion "time and again, at every opportunity". As a matter of fact I show up in the DW forum only very rarely, every couple of weeks or so. And I NEVER commented on gameplay of DW, which makes oerfect sense - I do not play it, you know ;)

"Did you note how many different reasons I gave in my first reply that could be imagined as an answer to the topic'S inherent question of why DW does not sell as expected? Did you note how many authors on the second page of the thread did not adress that topic-question nor the possible answers at all and just came to rumble with me? Even although I said two times loud and clearly I have no hard feelings at all with SA? That I would like to see the personal fight ending, concentrating on the topic again? I even do not pose any demands at SA. customers can do that, people like me who have not invested any money so far, do not demand anything. They just look at it, listen to people who bought it, and then decide Yes or No. Most of the feedback is positive, a minor part of feedback mentioned some minor flaws that most people liking DW do not mention, like a PC mag often does, but a more balanced approach I think considers both light and the little shadow there is. The latter method is what I prefer. concerning the patch-thing: even some members (some means: not many, but SOME) of this forum that are here for as many years as I am and that went through SC as well, have said in the past they have DW shelved until it is patched. I wonder why. Obviously they all got it wrong what hinders them.

Neither you nor many others cared much for trying to find an answer to the topic's original question, why DW does not sell as SA wished. That in this forum only enthusiasts are present, for the most , is no wonder and so their love for it is no real explanation of anything pro or contra. they choosed only to see the light, and ignore the little shadow there is. fine. Many more people outside this forum know DW is there. But not too many seem to be interested, not as many as was expected. I mentioned some reasons (DW beeing a niche product, SC still popular and thus a rival lowering it's chances, community smaller than for Flightsims, complexity in this case (subsimming not as popular as flightsimming) working against DW's spreading - as I was told by several people whom I talked to- ; sub-only-lovers with no interest in ships and flyers only get one sub more for that above-average-price, and - sorry - still no final patch), and then I came under fire immediately, with the possible reasons that I gave, and that I find reasonable, not thought about by anyone anymore (except Mark, who stayed with the topic). For the sake of completeness I mentioned the missing patch again, and boooom.

I think some people are oversensitive when one reminds them that their one and only true love maybe is not shared by people out there in the big wide world, and that there maybe are reasons that could explain this. I did not mention all these reasons to make these people feel uncomfortable, but simply because I think that they are the answer to the topic'S question - a topic that someone else has started, not me, btw.

I remember the SC debates we had four years ago, or five years? It had some very serious, sometimes showstopping bugs (in the beginning, the freezing after saved games reloaded, f.e.), and the community was split. There were those who ignored all this and insisted that no patch is needed and everything was perfect and fine, big fun. and then there were others who listed the things that did not work, or caused freezed games, - and the first group used to attack the second group for even mentioning these things, saying it all were not true. The official review on the board did not even mention a single glitch, flaw, bug or error. Nevertheless three patches had been released, I think - i wonder why. Took them over a year. DW may not be as uncompleted as SC had been in the bgeinning (I never commented on that comparison, I do not know DW, and I am aware that most people agree that DW is in better sahape than SC was at release), but the habit that only exclusively positive feedback is allowed, no negative, seem to be as present as before."

Please keep me out of the equation, guys. It's not about Skybird, but why SA themselves indicated that sales are not as well as they expected. The question is why this is so. Skybird and his crusade for patches :) hardly can be the only reason for that, don't you think?:lol:

[Skybird]

"ShootToKill", my God, now Ii remember! ;) Should have remembered it earlier. Still have it somehwere, printed out, laying between those old manuals! That was a very helpful piece of work back then! Thanks, even with several years of delay! It's a shame I never manged to get EAW running stable on my new rigs.

[John Channing]

Good old Skybird.

Never use 5 words when there are 500 lying around doing nothing.

JCC

[Kapitan]

its a fact bullsh^t sells things ie cars and things computers are a good thing to sell but i still prefer cars :up:

[John Channing]

its a fact bullsh^t sells things ie cars and things computers are a good thing to sell but i still prefer cars :up:

And what, pray tell, do you do for a living?

JCC

[timmyg00]

Good old Skybird.

Never use 5 words when there are 500 lying around doing nothing.

JCC Watch it, John, that's dangerously close to an "attack" :lol:

I guess there's a little Don Quixote in all of us... I'm glad I'm not a windmill.

For the record - and back to the topic - I agree with MarkShot's comments:

I do think the game was adequately publicized if the primary customer base are those who previously have some interest in the naval warfare genre. If you were a strategy/hardcore/grognard wargamer or naval enthusiast and regular user of the Internet to follow your hobby, then any number of the main sites for this type of thing had given this game some play.

In terms of impulse buyers at the checkout line, this was a stealth offering. However, it is unlikely that someone with no prior interest other than "cool box art" would really get past the learning curve this game entails. Besides the cost benefit analysis of advertising/sales to such customers, if I was developer, I don't know if I would have wanted to achieve sales without turning the purchasers (impulse sales) into a loyal customer base. It seems Sonalysts is in this for the long haul and perhaps the marketting of the game reflected such a philosophy.

And I think that Luft's comments are a little too conspiracy-theory-minded to be true, but one never knows, does one? Mulder? ;)

TG

[Kaptain Lord Aaron]

One thing I can say is that I may well buy DW in the future. This is as opposed to SHIII which no matter how good it might be with or without mods; it has Starforce insidiously buried within it. (I would much rather continue to play AOD, SH1, and SH2/PA - then risk the health of my PC or compromise my principles for a game.)Markshot why not buy DW, I play it all the time. I do bring out the sh2 once and a while though.

[Beer]

Good old Skybird.

Never use 5 words when there are 500 lying around doing nothing.

JCC

LOL try 928 words, 4982 characters (including spaces) and about a dozen errors.

Thank God for Word. Else I may have had to read the post to count it.

Cheers
Beer

[Kapitan]

john im unemployed but i did a bit of sales and a few other things i kinda ran a little buisness in school and college selling things

at the moment im unemployed its very hard to find a job cause of me age and also "lack of experiance"

[Bellman]

Some nice pithy comments from John which I think many of us should take to heart. But then it doesnt apply to us does it ;)

John wrote:-

Or put another way, some people never let their lack of knowledge keep them from forming and expressing an opinion.

But, as usual, you seem to spend a little too much time typing and not quite enough reading.

Never use 5 words when there are 500 lying around doing nothing.


Bang on target John. :up:

How many dally here instead of playing/designing - I think its called ' Liking the sound of your own voice.' :lol:

Gullty as accused Mi Lud. :hmm: ;)

[John Channing]

john im unemployed but i did a bit of sales and a few other things i kinda ran a little buisness in school and college selling things

at the moment im unemployed its very hard to find a job cause of me age and also "lack of experiance"

Well perhaps you should garner a bit more experience before casting aspersions on people's careers?

JCC

[Kapitan]

im not casting what ever on other people if you read its my opinion nothing to do with other people in fact no one person is singled out and i do not comment on one person i refer to all

my opinion is just my thoughs its not to cause flaming be taken offencively nor is it to be taken the wrong way !

as the saying goes were entitled to our own oppinion what democracy is made of :D :up:

[timmyg00]

im not casting what ever on other people if you read its my opinion nothing to do with other people in fact no one person is singled out and i do not comment on one person i refer to all

my opinion is just my thoughs its not to cause flaming be taken offencively nor is it to be taken the wrong way !

as the saying goes were entitled to our own oppinion what democracy is made of :D :up: No offense, K, but would you do us all a favor and buy a box of punctuation marks? They're cheap, I promise... :P

TG

[Kapitan]

what is a box of punctuation marks ?

[Bellman]

:lol: Agreed. But dont let it stop the enthusiasm K.

Lot of sales guys here - someday we explain to you about the 'bullsh^t' - its called 'selling the sizzle not the sausage'

Now I guess if I turned on the old tap I could sell ice even to you.
:rotfl:

[Kapitan]

i have enough ice thankyou :D unless you got ice maker 3000 in not intrested :D

[Bellman]

:D I know, but you can never have too much ice.

Now you are an expert on ice - right ?
So of course someone with your experience knows that there are many, many types of ice.
Even expert eskimos can distinguish between many forms of snow.

I guess you enjoy a tipple of vodka now and then ( :lol: more now than then eh K?) Imagine this now
as someone with a taste for the odd drop of gin I can put my hands on ice cubes all ready to go with lemon pieces frozen in.

Now think what this means when you are having a drink with friends - no frigging about slicing lemons,
no drinking time wasted and the incredulous looks of admiration, particularly from the ladies.

You seem the sort of guy who would relish the glow of beeing centre stage with this neat little trick

This is made for you and will be with you in a couple of days.
Dont worry about payment that will be deferred. ;)

See what I mean about sizzle ? :rotfl:

[MarkShot]

I guess we're sprinting and drift ... so, I'll drift.

My background was/is computer systems design. Back in the days of the Internet Bubble, I left Wall St. ... to work in the new media. Prior to that I was in charge of data warehousing at a major bank. Someone asked me how I could leave such a prominent instutition and I responded "100 years from now no one will talk about or remember the release of Oracle 8, but they will remember how society was changed by emergence of a world wide computer network that will have no less an impact than the printing press did".

So, among the positions I held was Director of Technology for a major Interactive Agency. An Interactive Agency was brand new species that attempted to combine traditional advertising/marketing with the new technology of the Internet. Every corporation was scrambling to have an online presense and we were there to deliver. We had two main wings of the company Creative and Technology. I have never worked and probably never will work in an environment with two such diverse cultures. The struggle of those two cultures was very much one of the key themes that underpin the success or failure of the business.

Now, looking back, I am still an engineer at heart. The only perception that is my reality is hard specs - no gloss or gimmicks will get me to buy something ... I just want to see case studies, statistics, and data points. The concept designers, artists, graphics staff, and copy writers, I met were incredibly talented people who taught me a lot. But the engineering culture has been deeply ingrained in me and possibly even before taking my first programming class there was a predisposition from an interest in science in an analytical approach.

It might be interesting to see where many wargamers fall on the spectrum of being analytical versus being more perception (audio/visual/concept/intuitive) driven.

[Bellman]

:lol: Wow thats a real party-pooper Mark - just having a little fun (I thought)

Try selling technical gear to engineers - you need both analytical skills and perceptive persuasion skills.
But after becoming the youngest Regional Manager for a national manufacture then Sales Manager
for a smaller outfit, I saw the light in mid-life and started my own business.

Never looked back and the only selling I've done for 'many' years is
persuading my wife I really do need a new PC. :lol:

Just leave you with a thought - one very perceptive lady posted a short time ago about the importance of multi-tasking and intuition
and how vital those characteristics are to the ART of sonar. :yep:

My role in the latter part of my life has entailed 'spinning plates' - you know the stage act. En route from flight sims to Harpoon I spent a year (about) with ATC sims (ATC Sim/Xavius ).As I had been in ATC in the RAF this gave me a real buzz.

I like the challenge of successfuly processing several challenging tasks and I'm sure that's why we lall ike SC/DW. :cool:

[Kapitan]

hmmm maybe i buy it maybe not :D

[Bellman]

:D Just a little fun K.

If you have a fridge with an ice-cube tray chop up the lemon into pieces that fit the cube partitions and add water-
Hey presto ice and a slice in one go. Free - no catches.

Now vodka can be adulterated by adding to gin - but I can of like it that way.
But thats in party mode - not often.
Mainly I'm a beer man or this summer Carlsberg Exports been kinda filling the garage. (I'm told!) :o :huh: :stare: :damn: :arrgh!:

[Kapitan]

im drink mainly spirits vodka rum scotch and whiskey but not that often even down the pub i rarely drink it just doesnt take to me yeah i can handle my drink but i dont drink often infact the last time i had a drink of any sort was 3 weeks ago (alcahol) so im doing good

now i fancy a vodka dam you bellman :stare: :D

[Bellman]

:ping: Now if I had a bottle or two I'd make a sale yes ? :lol:

Good luck to you.

Cheers.

[Kapitan]

no you wouldnt make a sale i got enough thanks and plus i can get a litre bottle for less than a pound

[Bellman]

:up: Thats a fountain I need to plug into. :up: :lol:

Contacts count - pound a litre sounds good. :huh:

[LuftWolf]

And I think that Luft's comments are a little too conspiracy-theory-minded to be true, but one never knows, does one? Mulder?

I agree with you. I never intended that that post be taken too seriously, but it does demonstrate the kind of thoughts one has when they put WAY too much effort into figuring something out that doens't need to be figured out. :lol: :-j

[timmyg00]

And I think that Luft's comments are a little too conspiracy-theory-minded to be true, but one never knows, does one? Mulder?

I agree with you. I never intended that that post be taken too seriously, but it does demonstrate the kind of thoughts one has when they put WAY too much effort into figuring something out that doens't need to be figured out. :lol: :-j Amen.

TG

[Hitman]

My 2 cents if anyone is interested in them:

I am not what one would call a compulsive player of modern warfare sims, but I did buy 688i and Fleet Command from Jane's, and also Sub Command from EA. I liked all them and I loved specially SC with SCU/SCX, but I recognize that I have played little time with them. Only SC has received some more attention from me in my spare time, which was already very busy with Silent Hunter 2. I buyed SH3, but did not like it, so it lays on the shelve collecting dust....

Now DW has come out and I have not yet bought it, the only reason being I do not like internet shopping, due to security reasons (My VISA is not enabled for electronic commerce voluntarily), but I would sure buy it if it were on stores near me.

I suppose there is also a share of potential customers who have same reasons as me, even if a small one. Sonalysts will sure know better than us what is more profitable for them, and I understand that few, high benefit sales can do the same as many low benefit ones, so I do not complaint. I applaude their effort, and praise DW in the hope it will be sooner or later available directly here, be it alon or in a pack of various sims.

As for patching DW, 3rd party add-ons, etc., I reckon that when I played SC first time I never noticed it could be even better. This I learned only with SCX, and mainly thanks to the comments here (I myself probably can't notice that).... :88), so I suppose I would enjoy DW a lot (I'm also a wannabee Perry commander :lol: ).

those are the two cents :arrgh!:

[SquidB]

It costs money to publish a game. It costs money to get a publisher to package your nice sim, put it in a box. It costs money to get retailers to take that box and put it on their shelves.

That money comes from the split of the profits.

I reckon that eventually we may see DW on the shelves of a local retailer.

The sales model that was chosen was due to the fact that at the time it was the best one for SCS, given the reasons ive mentioned above.

As for the marketing of the game......well, as someone who works in marketing, I think i could of done better.

After all, you produce a great product, that is subject to rave reviews, 99% of its users love and............................................... .................................................. .....................................nothing, A missed oppourtunity here.

I base this on conversations with other simmers. After all our precious sub community is only so big, however their are others who may play flight or tank sims that like a techno thriller sim experiance. And to my mind DW offers that in bucket loads.

It costs bugger all to market effectively because if its effective you get the return in sales.

I guess they had bigger fish to fry.

[Bellman]

Tank and flight sims appeal to a similar target bunch to DW purchasers.

But their perception is of naval sims being laboriously slow. So you have to sell the features
which will appeal to these target game purchasers.

There are common characteristics:-
You are in the 'hot-seat'
The excitement of the 'duel'
The tactical manouvering.
Creating and evolving a plan of action.
Reacting flexibly to threats.
Selecting and using appropriate weapons.
Finding the target and making the kill.

and so on.............

You emphasise the 'sizzle' of the experience - thats what will draw the punters in.

Feature enthusiastic 'after-action' reports from players that convey what it means to be in DWs 'hot seats'.
Tankers and airheads wiil feel the buzz !
I did and I wont go back. :|\

[Kapitan]

same here i used to play flight sims but now its sub simd all the way

[Skybird]

It costs money to publish a game. It costs money to get a publisher to package your nice sim, put it in a box. It costs money to get retailers to take that box and put it on their shelves.

That money comes from the split of the profits.

I reckon that eventually we may see DW on the shelves of a local retailer.

The sales model that was chosen was due to the fact that at the time it was the best one for SCS, given the reasons ive mentioned above.

As for the marketing of the game......well, as someone who works in marketing, I think i could of done better.

After all, you produce a great product, that is subject to rave reviews, 99% of its users love and............................................... .................................................. .....................................nothing, A missed oppourtunity here.

I base this on conversations with other simmers. After all our precious sub community is only so big, however their are others who may play flight or tank sims that like a techno thriller sim experiance. And to my mind DW offers that in bucket loads.

It costs bugger all to market effectively because if its effective you get the return in sales.

I guess they had bigger fish to fry.
Sometimes you get no sales, no matter what your marketing is. People do know Dw is around. And it got reviews in major print magazines in Germany. There simply is not so much interest in it.

In no way I can see DW community rival the size of flightsim community. I described that especially the complexity of the sim (no critizism of mine, to be clear on that!) drives away people that I know, people that usually love to have complexity - in flightsims, strategy games. That is a different ballgame, as Bellman described. And for people that may live on small financial basis, have families, or are still kids, the higher price tag is an argument, too, not a major one as for example the price tag for Steel Beasts Pro will be (currently nagotiated due to the discusiion about copy protection they have), but it is a concern. I assume SCS was wise in the method it choosed. I don'T think this sim will see big sale numbers if it ís to be found on the shelves inside stores. the potential audience simply is not big enough in size. don't base your assumptions on community size on counting here at subsim.com - that people here love naval sim is no wonder. But we are only a small fraction of simmers and gamers out there. Also, amongst the yolung ones, the haunting of the console culture picks away at the basis of future PC audience with interest in simulations in the classical understanding.

I wonder how it will be with SBP when it comes out this late fall. it is even more expensive and maybe even will raise, if they should implement a dongle. The release is targetted at an audience that is probably even smaller in size than naval simmer's community, due to the price. The more game-like SB2 in one or two years will adress more people. I think one will know relateivel early if they made the correct decisions (small sale numbers, balanced by higher price). Then one could ask if SA maybe would have been better off to calculate with smaller sale numbers from the beginning, and raise the prize of the product to counter that.

What would have been the maximum price tag you would have been willing to pay for DW? Would you have bought it for double the money?

BTW :D, my timetable seems to get screwed up :lol: . Probably I buy DW end of next week from a guy coming around then, who bought it but but has little interest in it. It's the manual-version and looks like new, he said. He is in little troubles privately and financially, so we agreed to the price for a new product. Sorry that I do not help to increase SA's sale numbers that way, but he is an unhappy customer - and he is the brother of a friend of mine, so who would have rejected this offer.

I apologize for not sticking to my announcement that way :lol: :-j

[SquidB]

In no way I can see DW community rival the size of flightsim community. I described that especially the complexity of the sim (no critizism of mine, to be clear on that!) drives away people that I know, people that usually love to have complexity - in flightsims, strategy games

No i dont think that DW will ever get any near the size of the flight sim community. What I ment was that given the complexity of some flight sims, and the fact that many are attracted by realism, and something takes time, skill and study to master, their must be some that would be intrested in DW.

A case in point is the SB story, the games been out for 5+ years, I only discovered it a month ago, due to another DW player mentioning it. I was intrested in it due to its complexity and realism. Now if i can be intrested in buying a very out of date and forgotten sim surely given the right targeting other members of the wider sim community would give DW a go.

[Bellman]

:up: Exactly my thinking also, SquidB. :up:

[Skybird]

Squid,

I am not sure if yo were aware that I spoke about the to-be-released SB Pro PE, not the old SB1 (SB Gold). SB Gold, where available, comes at around 10-15 bucks these days (at least the last time I saw it somewhere on shelves, and that is quite some time ago), the new version will ship at around 125-145 bucks, depending on wether they use dongle technology or not. That's why I philosophized about the different business model: make up for lower sales numbers with higher prices, if it is the hardcore theme-simmers and enthusiastically theme-interested fans anyway. From the beginning they do not aim for the wide market (that they will do with SB2 in not before early 2007 - it will be a less "sim-heavy" sim for that reason).

The market for subsims of the niveau of DW unfortunately is overestimated in size, probably, and it also is still quite saturated with SC. Also, compared to SHIII (the direct rival booth by market and release date) the DW graphics seem to be of slightly improved SC standard "only" and thus inferior to contemporary gfx standard, also SHIII is lacking the complexity of DW, hell, even SC has more complexity than SHIII, and for these reasons SHIII may have attracted a far bigger audience then DW. That is no critizism of mine, that is the reality of gaming markets - I just cannot imagine other reasonable explanations why a sim of complexity, thick manual and realism does not sell as well as was hoped for. People DO KNOW it is there, and it got good reviews in major print medias as well. But I saw people's interest level drop almost always whenever I tell them details about it. The theme of sonar, SSNs and sub-hunting by electronical means does not attract as much willingness to get engaged in complexity and manuals as other simulation themes can count on, namely flight sims. That is the bitter reality (disclaimer: No, I did not blame SA for patches when mentioning DW to other people, but even pointed out that as far as I do know it got relased in much better shape than SC back then). In regard to sale expectation, I think eSim (SBP) is more realistic in it's projections than SA was back then. So they avoid unrealistic planning and dissapointments and probably can only experience positive surprises.

One faint hope remains, that is a modding scene that swings into higher gear and comes up with siginificantly more than database editing (don't ask me what this "more" could be, I have no clue, but it must be a difference that is obvious even to the casually bypassing gamer). SCXII was a great acchievement for SC, but you only benefitted from it if you have dived deep into SC vanilla and thus had the experience to compare the abstract data and become aware of the diffrences in sonar and sound profiles and weapons - to the casual gamer (and most young customers are console-driven eye-candy lovers and action-freaks, don't forget that) the diffrences between vanilla SC and SCX maybe was not obvious at all.

If you visit simHQ you may have realised that they published two extensive "game revisited" reviews recently, about European air War and Enemy Engaged. The modding scene for these two games are amongst the most active and complex ones I have heared of, beside Falcon 4. If DW could show such a diversity of different styles and lifes in the long run, then maybe the revenues that were missed in the beginning will drop in piece by piece over longer time. But I doubt that this could be acchieved by numerical magic alone (editing sound profiles and such). DWX is unlikely to compenasate the missing sales of the present. But turning the somewhat aged-looking graphical presentation into something really spectacular maybe would help. Because unfortunately today's present indicates that DW has not the needed interest-trigger like for example SB1 to compensate for it's not-above-average graphcial presentation. It's the eyes that buy for many gamers out there.

Just one word on that I do not want to bash DW's graphics here, I judge them on the demo tht I know so far and regard them as slightly improved (and still way too dark :) ), compared to SC, but I admit the graphics alone wouldn't have drawn my interest to DW, if there wouldn't have been other factors as well. I am fact-oriented for the sake of my argument when rating them as standard only, it is not meant as critizism. Saturday I'll get visitors, and then have the complete game to see myself.

[SquidB]

Skybird, i agree with most of what you say, especially with the point about community driven mods to keep DW alive. I think we can expect great things from the guys here.

And yes I did realise you ment SB Pro. SB pro is a spin off of the current tank sim that is aimed at defence agencies. SB2 will be the game version aimed at the home user/gamer.

As for paying $150 for the sim version.....yep id do it because it should be a quality product. Anyway your right the subsim community is overestimated as far as numbers go. My point is, (and i have both EAW and enemy engaged) is that i would of expected more cross over from devoties of other sim genres.

After all DW isnt just a sub sim, you can fly a seahawk or a orion, command a perry. Maybe its our fault for not spreading the work amongst other simmers, perhaps SCS should have focused on that aspect more. At the end of the day, i find it hard to belive that DW didnt become the cult classic it deserves to be, Just like EAW, Enemy engaged and dare i say it Falcon

[Skybird]

In case you have not noticed it: SimHQ has released a series of talks at the round table, between developers, producers and others, on the future of simulations. several well-known names, plenty of ideas beeing exchanged, it's quite a long read. To be found on their main page: "On the future of simulations".