LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Mod Discussion

[LuftWolf]

I did some playing around with the database editor and found a quick way to make some realistic tweaks without messing with a whole bunch of stuff.

1) I applied the Mobile Mine fix recommended in the Landlubbers Survival Guide on Subguru.

2) I change the 53cm represent the specs of the USGT (A/P Homing, 30km@50kph-- I'm not sure of the proper operating depth, so I set it slightly less than the ADCAP.

3) I set the 65cm to be a wakehoming wire guided torpedo, to represent the actual 65cm torpedo.-- Not sure if its wireguided in actuality. Also, I can't change the graphics at the fire control station, you just have to remember that its a wakehomer, but it doesn't affect gameplay. I know why SCS didn't include this in the game, because there isn't a solid defense against a wireguided wakehoming torpedo that can kill anything afloat in one or two shots. :arrgh!:

4) I set one of the towed array of the 688i to have specs between the tb16 and the tb29 and renamed it tb-23. It seems like a pretty simple fix, but it works. They wash out at different speeds and have different sensitivties. You folks who have reallife experience can tell me if it needs tweaking to represent the real speed at which it washes out, currently it's around 16kts wheras the tb-16 washes out around 20kts. Note, I decided to break from realism and keep the port tb-16 and change the starbord TA to the tb-23, the reason for this being that in missions in which the sub starts with the towed array out, the starboard array is always deployed, and I figured in most of those situations, I would want my more sensitive array out. :know: :-j

These are the only changes I have made to the database and it fixes everything that keeps me up at night (my computer was broken for three weeks so I've had some time to think). :|\ :sunny:

Would someone like to look at this and tell me what they think? I suppose it's for single player only... :ping:

[Amizaur]

What mobile mine fox are you reffering to ? Is this a fix that makes it working or only active sonar return or the non-emiting sound after stop maybe ? If one of the latters, I'll give you the major fix which makes them actually working and detonating. It's doctrine only but if you are modifing the database then I'll make second one, with small database change (possible rewerse speed for mm to stop it in place more efectively) it would work much better :-). Also you may include new two-stage SS-N-27 ASM if you want. Send me PM if you are interested and I'll send you those files.

P.S. Also if I could suggest something, change USET-80 torpedos to UGST and 53cm torpedos to USET-80. If you change 53cm torp to UGST then surface ships would be armed withy UGSTs which is not very realistic (and not very playable...). Surface should have USET-80s. The closest real-life equivalent of 53cm torp would be the USET-80, it have similar speed and range also.
Then if you change in-game USET-80 to UGST then only some Russian subs will be armed with them which is OK again. For example the Kilo would get it and it needs longer range torp VERY badly. It wouldn't if UGST was made from 53cm - Kilos don't use them...
65cm torpedo is not wire guided as far as I know, only wake-homing.

[LuftWolf]

Thanks. I am interested.

The MM fix is the no sound after stop fix, using a new thrust catagory.

I am interested in the new ss-n-27.

I will also look at the torpedo modifications you suggested.

I will PM you when I have made some changes.

Thanks! :rock:

[LuftWolf]

Ok, Amizaur and I have some files to exchange and then I can go Beta with the database mod... Bill, I assume you are willing to host? :yep: ;) Thanks again both of you guys :sunny:

[Bill Nichols]

Yeppers! Glad to be of service :up:

[LuftWolf]

Ok, Bill, I've sent off the zip. Thanks again.

Please use this thread guys to give us some feedback! :yep: :up: :know:

[Bill Nichols]

I'll be updating my site tomorrow (Saturday, 12 Aug). Expect to see it posted then, along with a couple of new scenarios I've received.

[Bellman]

:) Thanks to Luftwolf and Amizaur for an excellent mod.

I observed something in a game today which is probably intentional but thought I should raise it -

I employed a 53 cm torp against a SW and was surprised to see an enabled search oscilation which went in an
arc from 330 to 060.Thats the torps nose so its search 'cone' probably takes the arc area covered to approaching 180 deg.
Is this correct ? :hmm:

[Bellman]

Typo in last - arc from 300 to 060 deg. ie 120 deg

:) Did some tests on SCX2 UGST - the nose arc goes from 330 to 030 ie through 60 deg which seems more realistic.

The new DW LufAm Mod. 53s are going to be wanderers !

Any thoughts ?

[LuftWolf]

Bellman--

Thank you.

Weapon behavior such as search patterns is controlled by doctrines in DW. All torpedos in this database except for wakehomers are controlled by the torpedo doctrine, which specificies the search pattern you described, so all torpedos behave the same.

I have not had a problem with the 120 degree snake search pattern, and I believe that Amizaur left that aspect of the torpedo doctrine unchanged, so I'm not sure there is a gameplay problem, other than that it's different from SCXIIc. Have you had a problem using torpedos with this DB that you didn't have with the stock DB?

[Bellman]

:) Luftwolf,

:lol: I must put SCX away but I am converting to the Ak after 'specialising' on the SW
and SCX gives plaenty of opportunity to practise.

So not too familiar with DW yet awaiting patch. I am sorry to pin this reported behaviour on your excellent mod - please forgive me. :oops:

It will probably tempt me back to DW pending and in lieu of th patch.

[LuftWolf]

No problem!

I REALLY appreciate what you've said, and that you've taken the time to download and give me feedback. :up:

I find the Akula the most interesting sub platform as well, that's what inspired me to do the mod, as I found the stock weapons more or less unusuable in any reasonable way.

[Bellman]

:) Just had an interesting test session under the LuftAmi mod. Created a mission with SW and Ak
about 13 nm apart in deep water and dived the SW.

Observations:-
1.Seemed extra difficult to provoke the AI Ak to launch against me despite cavitating, chucking out CMs
and launching a MK 48 in its direction and shutting it down nearby.

2.When it did send missiles I got a good BB transient but so far have not heard a ''TIW'' on this or other occasions.
( Maybe circumstances - speed or baffled hopefully) I will retest.

3 One of the Mk 40s exhibited a nice surfing action - porpoising along and skimming the surface. I have taken several
dumps and if you PM me with a destination, I will send a Zip.together with a report of the circumstances leading up to this event.

[LuftWolf]

Bellman

1) We have not changed anything in the subattack doctrine or ss-n-27 asw, so I'm not sure if our mod produced this behavior. 13 nm may have been to far for the AI to get a solid fix. I have had ships launch subrocs at me from around that distance with this mod in huge numbers, and they found home. :dead:

2) The missles may not produce a TIW message. Yes, I got a little lazy when writting the readme and thought I would throw that in there with a disclaimer, as I thought I had a kilo launch a missle that gave me a TIW message, but there was a lot of combat going on at that general bearing when it happened.

3) I noticed this behavior with other database mods. I believed that it had something to do with changes to the torpedo turning radius, that causes havoc with the algorithms. Using the stock database, others have reported this behavior with a number of torpedos in very specific conditions, usually subrocs but not always. We changed nothing in the database that might cause this behavior, as far as we know, you may have just had a "lucky" situation. I will pm you with my email address so I can send them to Amizaur, these kind of issues are pushing the absolute boundaries of my knowledge, but subrocs in general definately work in this mod (read: I got sunkitated by 8 silex subrocs from an Udoloy (spelling...) DD, yikes! :cry: ).

[LuftWolf]

I have just played around with some ss-n-27's.

4 out of 4 type 40's enabled and searched properly and the target, an Akula, returned fire down the bearing of the dropped torpedos immediately (I was off target by a few miles).

I do think AI subs should be more aggressive generally in DW for sure.

[LuftWolf]

I should also add about the TIW warning during missle launch.

I observed that prior to the seaskimming missle/passive sonar sound fix. The transient was much longer (as it turns out too long...) than it is now with v1.01.

The short missle transient may not produce a TIW message, as it appears very scattered on the waterfall most of the time.

[Snakeeyes]

Great mod but I have a few questions:

I was up against an Akula in a 688 and I was surprised when he launched a 65-76 torpedo at me. Is it possible that you could fix this from happening or show me how to stop it?

Also... any problems with this mod interacting with the soundspeed fix from SCS? I was a little surprised how easy it was to locate an Oscar II moving at 6 knots using the TB-23.

Also... I know that the TB-23 on the starboard side washes out faster (as it should) but is it more sensitive than the stock version of the towed array in the game? I imagine it is... I just have to confirm it.

Also... was the spherical array enhanced any? I'm surprised at how strong some of the broadband signals are for contacts like Oscars and Typhoons.

I love the mod... esp the great 65-76 torpedo fix without the wire. Thank you!!!

Let me know what you think about my questions.

Cheers.

Snakeeyes

[LuftWolf]

Oscars and typhoons are loud in the standard database relative to other subs, and this has been left as it is, maybe to be addressed later.

Regarding the 65-76 torpedo launch, the use of weapons by the AI is something that needs more work for sure. Since the 65-76 has a longer range than the 53cm/ugst, it is possible that it didn't think it had a chance with the ugst, so it launched the 65-76, which is still listed as having asw capability, just reduced, same as the other russian wakehomer.

Thanks! :D

PS, the sensitivity of the tb-23 is in the middle of the tb-16 and the tb-29.

[LuftWolf]

I just set up a scenario where I started within a few nm of an akula imp I.

I set my 688i to 35kts and watched what happened. The akula fired first two shikals at off degress which missed and then fired a 53cm torpedo.

I suspect the AI will still take a potshot with the 65cm at ranges outside where it would fire a 53cm/ugst.

[Bellman]

:) After several more tests I have not had a repeat of the skimming incident which I am sure is just a 'unique' event. :hmm:
I have forwarded the dumps.

The MK 40s perform well after the usual provocation the AI manages some counter aggression. :arrgh!:

Transients are fine when I am quick enough to catch them. :o :stare: :huh: Was that it ? :damn:

Listening hard for TIWs - gotta clear this wax . ;)

Nice work - just a delicate change which keeps the SW diver 'eyes down'

Now where did I park my Ak ? :ping: :

[XabbaRus]

AI launch using best weapon for range, hence 65 cm being used.

I am still trying to get in touch with Thomasew and Ludger to see how things are progressing.

[Fish]

I should also add about the TIW warning during missle launch.

I observed that prior to the seaskimming missle/passive sonar sound fix. The transient was much longer (as it turns out too long...) than it is now with v1.01.

The short missle transient may not produce a TIW message, as it appears very scattered on the waterfall most of the time.

I did a few tests on a LAN, no TIW, good transients however.
In multiplayer the lag of TIW warning is still a problem, because you have to be in sonar to see the transient. in LTA its visible but difficult to find when you have a scattered screen.

[LuftWolf]

Ideally, there would be a "Missle Launch Warning"...

However, the fact that the player has to put some effort into finding the missle transient, and the player's ability to detect a missle launch varies by platform in a way that reflects real life, makes me feel alright about how things are at this stage of development.

I really appreciate you testing this mod for MP. I genuinely feel it is a big improvement over the original DB/doctrine list without any added drawbacks, but there are obviouly a lot of things that need to be worked out. As it is, because of Amizaur's contribution, the mod addressed much more than I had originally intended, so I'm surprised and very please that it has been well received. I hope the Seawolves find it of use.

[Kapitan]

im sure a missile makes more noise on launch than a torpedo

[LuftWolf]

Torps are around 80 and sublaunched missles are 100, except for the Harpoon which is 80, simulating its launch from a canister.

[Kapitan]

so you should hear a missile launch and you should nget a warning then right

[LuftWolf]

You will, for sure, not get a TIW message with the v1.01 fix to the persistent missle transients.

It will leave a strong trace on the BB waterfall, but if you are in a Russian boat, and not paying attention, most likely you will miss it.

[LuftWolf]

This Mod is now in v1.03.

Please see the dedicated thread on the main DW Subsim board for more details! :up: