Proposal for coming Rub 1.43

[rulle34]

Hello!
The thing is the present Renown system.

As it is now, you are assigned a square to patrol in for at least 24 hours (i.e AL 63). If you accomplish that you have a "completed mission" and will have renown for that. (If you also exit patrol in harbour you will have about 100 renown more, but this is not relevant now) I think this system is not realistic.

My proposal is to keep the assigned patrol frid, but remove renown for finishing 24 hour patrol in a certain square. Just look at this "AL 63" as a starting location, where your sub shall be deployed. To compensate the lost for renown, you can i.e. raise the value for renown on ships you actually sink. This is a better and more realistic way of rewarding subcommanders, for their tonnage! Not for wasting fuel for 24 hours in AL 63!

Here is my motivation:

During the war submarines where assigned a certain grid to patrol in. The purpouse was to deploy the submarines so they covered as big area/line as possible. When BdU got a report about a convoy, submarines was in some cases directed there from there patrolareas. Much alike the way its simulated now in SH 3.

We take an example: You are on your way to AL 63, on your way there you recieve a message on a nearby "large enemy convoy", you set heading for it, and lets say you are successful and spend all your torpedos and make some sinking. If you send a report to BdU, you will have a message saying" Return to base". Of course, you don't have any torpedos left.

In this case you have performed an excellent patrol, and head back to base. But with the present system you will loose renown for not finishing your 24 hour patrol in AL 63!!!!! To have these renowns you have to head for AL 63, cruising there for 24 hours, unable to sink any ships, just risking your boat and your crew. This is not realistic to my mind!

Then you can always say that this will make people skip going to their patrol areas!

Well, there is always a risk that people dont go to their patrol grid, but I think that with all these reduction of single ships there are most likely four main situations that can happen:

1. You will have a radioreport of a convoy BEFORE you have reached your patrol grid. - If you use all your torps on that convoy - the realistic thing should be to return to base!

2. You ARE in your patrolgrid but haven't finished your 24 hours yet when you get a message about a convoy, you go there and if you have spend your torps you should return to base and not go back again!

3. You HAVE FINISHED your 24 hour patrol in your patrol grid when you get a report of a convoy, This does not make any difference from now!

4. The commander totally IGNORE his patrolgrid and go to a place where he wants to go and/or thinks it's most likely to find a convoy.
This kind of player perhaps shouldn't use Rub mod. But the option is there if you want to be BdU's "wildcard" for a patrol.

My opinion is that people who use the Rub mod wants realism. But I want to change focus from patrol grid as the thing for completing a mission to a starting point and instead get more credit for sinking allied ships as it was in reality!

What do you think?

ps. Sorry if I almost wrote a book on this..! :lol:

/Rulle

[jasonb885]

Hello!
The thing is the present Renown system.


I'd agree the reward system kind of blows. But that's a different topic, though related to renown.


...
1. You will have a radioreport of a convoy BEFORE you have reached your patrol grid. - If you use all your torps on that convoy - the realistic thing should be to return to base!


You managed to expend all your torpedos on a single convoy and successfully reload multiple times? Perhaps only in early war.


...
My opinion is that people who use the Rub mod wants realism. But I want to change focus from patrol grid as the thing for completing a mission to as a starting point and get credit for sinking allied ships as it was in reality!


I think the reality is, you patrol your grid. If there's nothing there, sucks to be you. Ask for a new grid. Unfortunately SH3 doesn't let you request additional instructions. I don't think commanders generally had free roam of the Atlantic. If anything the grid system is less realistic. You ought to be in serious trouble for wandering off to engage a convoy without instruction.

:up:

[rulle34]

Jason: I do think you should keep the grid, but not have it combined with renown.

Spending all torps was just an example to make my point here. Fire off one load, dive, escape, and then try to catch up to get in a new fireposition can sometimes be possible. and it was aslo something real subcommanders struggled for. Unfortunately they seldom was succesful to make a second attemt. But after this have to go to your patrol grid, just to have your renown does not feel so realistic to me.

And I don't mean to use the ocean for free, but if you recieve a report of a convoy I will certainly go for it!

/Rulle

[Gairith]

Considering there would have been more then one sub in the water at a time. If you are looking for realism and immersion and you run out of torps you could go to your grid and run your patrol anyway. You spot a ship you call it in so another sub that is close by can catch it, playing scout. Don't know if this was done in reality or not.

*Personal view and not based on any research*

[Venatore]

Mate,

I totally agree with your comments :up:.


Venatore :smug:

[rulle34]

Thanks! :sunny:

[pampanito]

By early 1943, U-boats were closely managed by BdU and had very few opportunities for roaming freely. They were ordered to join a patrol line or an attacking wolfpack, directed against a convoy, then another line and another convoy, till fuel was exhausted. Just look at an example of a lesser known, U-440 (Oblt Hans Geissler), during March 1943:

March 6 - Outgoing U-440 joins newly-formed 'Neuland' group on the Eastern side of the North Atlantic. 'Neuland' forms a patrol line in the path of convoy HX-228 detected by B-Dienst.

March 10 - HX-228 detected. An attemp to attack by U-440 in the night 11/12 is fouled by escorts.

March 15 - Group 'Dränger' formed to operate against HX-229; it includes U-440. Convoy located and attacked March 16/19, but U-440 unable to attack.

March 25 - U-440 joins group 'Seewolf' to operate against SC-123. Convoy briefly sighted by U-564 but wrongly reported to be proceeding westwards. The group is broken up and U-440 returns to base.

So U-440 had been ordered to join three different wolfpacks during this patrol, operated against three convoys, but had no opportunity to make any attacks. Not an unusual thing at the moment. As an example, during March 18 there were 30 U-boats operating against HX-229; only 9 of them managed to get close to the convoy, but all were forced to submerge by air cover and only one managed to attack, sinking one ship.
The time for independent operations or the opportunity to fire a lot of torpedoes at one convoy had clearly passed. The MOST IMPORTANT MISSION for a U-boat was not to attack, but to report and shadow convoys so that the whole wolfpack could concentrate. Doenitz was really annoyed when a commander failed to adequately report the course and speed of a convoy before attacking it. Even if a U-boat expended all torpedoes while in contact (unlikely in 1943) she was expected to keep shadowing and reporting until the convoy operation was broken off.
The U-boat which had sighted a convoy was not only expected to report it to BdU, but if possible he was to contact nearby U-boats and bring them to the convoy. U-boats were sometimes located and destroyed while in this homing task, but these losses were acceptable as long as enough boats were able to come to the convoy.

So, reporting convoys should be adequately rewarded with renown in SH3. If we are to operate as a real U-boat commander did, we should even risk detection to send the all vital contact reports.

And now that I'm back in station... I'm going to give the latest ImprovedConvoys a try! :yep:

[rulle34]

You are quite right! But I don't see any differences in our opinion. I for sure would like to have real "wolfpack mssion". But it's unfortunately not simulated in the game. And it was mostly used in North Atlantic.

Besides, commanders where often called in peron (together with other commanders) to hear the supreme commanders intention with trhe present situation and what is important or not.

In game there is only two things simulated:

Simulated radio reports on ships or convoys, and a patrolgrid!

In the game you are supposed to intercept ships and convoys you will have a report on!

We should of course keep the patrol-area, and we shall go there, but not go there just to get renown. Thats my point here. I rather would give more renown for shipsinking instead!

In reality and in generall, no sub was to sail around without torpedos. They should go back to port so they can return and do some use.