SSN KURSK was down by US SSN Memphis !!!

[MaxRiga]

Hi all
i got this file in word.doc by email from friend of mine so, have no idea where he took it from ( this is forum style review ).
but this is shocking news about ssn KURSK sub tragegy. shortly, this says about how us sub hits kursk but another us sub ( real american stupidity ) had launched torpedo cause thought that kursk attacks it.
most interesting is that this movie on History Chennel in Canada now.
Is there any good russian-english translater to translate it on english. i think this is gonna be interesting for all.


Сейчас по History Channel в Канаде идет сериал про подлодки. Две серии
из этого сериала посвящено Курску. Одна из них уже прошла,
сегодня-вторая.
Вот описание первой серии передранное из одного топика:

Поначалу показывали то, что мы уже видели и знали. Как и когда это
случилось, и как наши военные начальники на это реагировали. Обычные
кадры. Женщины в истерике и все такое. Обвинения Путину, что оставался
на отдыхе на Черном море. Показали Илью Клебанова, если помните, он был
тогда вице-премьер министром. Показали как Клебанов стоял молча перед
впавшими в истерику женщинами не зная что ответить. Мы уже немного
расслабились, ну, мол, будет сейчас … пройдутся от души по нашим.

И тут внезапный поворот. Вы, наверное, помните, что была такая версия в
некоторых газетах, что, мол, была рядом иностранная подводная лодка, и
было вроде как столкновение, а потом детонировали торпеды на «Курске». У
нас это все и осталось нелепым вымыслом, и в итоге, после двухлетнего
следствия, в 2002 году была озвучена официальная версия, согласно
которой самопроизвольно взорвалась торпеда в носовом отсеке, затем по
цепной реакции взорвался весь боезапас, что и повлекло гибель подлодки и
экипажа.

Теперь о том, что нам тут показали в этом фильме.

Показали, что было две американские подводные лодки в районе маневров.
Они были на спецзадании, следя за маневрами. Одна подлодка «Мемфис» шла
под прикрытием другой лодки «Толедо» в тени. Вроде, как только одна на
экранах всех радаров и сонаров. Потом «Мемфис» вынырнула из под своей
ведущей лодки, чтобы получше исследовать запуск баллистической ракеты с
«Курска» не рассчитав курс и расстояние. Американцы оказались на
встречном курсе и столкнулись в лобовом направлении с нашими. Они прошли
всем телом по наиболее уязвимому второму отсеку «Курска». Но самое
ужасное случилось потом. На второй американской лодке «Толедо», наблюдая
всю картину, капитан решил, что русские каким то образом атаковали
«Мемфис» и не долго думая, выпустил торпеду по «Курску». Торпеда попала
прямо в ослабленную часть на стыке второго и третьего отсеков и
разорвалась внутри. В фильме показали компьютерную вариацию с участием
всех трех лодок о том как все произошло. Нашими самолетами, по свежим
следам, были зафиксированы масляные пятна на воде по курсу уходящей с
места происшествия чужой подлодки.

В некоторых газетах писали, что была иностранная подлодка, вроде как
английская, и мы все про это читали

Теперь о том, что мы точно не знали. Оказывается, наши вели эти две
американские подлодки до всех событий и точно знали, что это были
американцы на наблюдении. После столкновения и атаки на «Курск» министр
обороны Сергеев поднял две противолодочные эскадрильи в воздух.
Немедленно доложили на юг Путину. И в тот же момент на связь с Путиным
вышли американцы. После связи с американцами Путин отозвал самолеты и, в
конце концов, Путин (или его команда) принял решение оставаться на юге,
чтобы не провоцировать нагнетание напряженности. Все, оказывается, было
на крае пропасти.
Срочно прибыл в Москву директор ЦРУ для консультаций. Все это время
Путин постоянно был на связи с Биллом Клинтоном.

В итоге к лодке никого не подпускали, хотя весь мир предлагал
квалифицированную помощь. Все мы ведь думали, что можно спасти
кого-нибудь. Через несколько дней наши согласились пустить датчан, но со
строжайшим приказом не подплывать к носу лодки. Датчане сумели открыть
люк в восьмом отсеке, нашли несколько посмертных записей, и подтвердили,
что внутри лодки никто не выжил. После этого шла работа уже наших
водолазов. Они уже не заботились о самой лодке, ее реакторе и погибших
моряках. Оказывается со дна около «Курска», в срочном порядке убирались
куски и обломки американского «Мемфиса».

Те российские газеты, которые все же умудрились опубликовать спутниковые
снимки «подозрительной иностранной» подлодки на ремонте в норвежском
порту были тут же прижаты к ногтю ФСБ. Эта подлодка действительно была
американской «Мемфис» и добиралась она до Норвегии 7 дней вместо 2
обычных. Другая американская лодка «Толедо» зигзагами, нестандартным
курсом, ушла в США. Двое представителей российского военного и
политического руководства Игорь Сергеев и Илья Клебанов, которые не шли
на поводу и отстаивали американский след как публичную версию были в
итоге отправлены в отставку.

Некоторое время спустя (около двух недель после происшествия) весь
предыдущий российский долг США был аннулирован, и Америка предоставила
России новый кредит на 10 миллиардов долларов. Каждая семья, погибших на
«Курске» моряков, получила немыслимую компенсацию в 25 000 долларов.

Путину, тем ни менее, нужно было понять лодку для поднятия политического
имиджа.
На подъем «Курска» год спустя, был подписан контракт с голландской
компанией, единственной, которая согласилась поднять только среднюю и
хвостовую часть. Все остальные компании за много меньшие деньги
соглашались поднять весь корпус целиком. Голландцы отпилили два носовых
отсека и вывезли на сушу все остальное. Вот тут нам и показали кадры
лодки крупным планом так сказать по прибытии. Прямо у места отпила зияла
огромная круглая дыра и края у этой дыры были вмяты внутрь. У нас этого
точно не показывали, потому что немедленно эта часть фюзеляжа была
объявлена засекреченной и впоследствии была ликвидирована, как впрочем
все кинопленки. В фильме были приведены показания экспертов, которые
подтвердили, что только американская торпеда нового образца ( не помню
ее точное название), может оставлять такие следы, прожигая наружный слой
и врываясь внутри.

Удивительный фильм. Особенно здесь в Канаде. Одно, несомненно, идея

[Jamie]

... but this is shocking news about ssn KURSK sub tragegy. shortly, this says about how us sub hits kursk but another us sub ( real american stupidity ) had launched torpedo cause thought that kursk attacks it...

Hmmm, interesting political commentary to slip in there... (not so subtle either, I might add). :down:

In the future, it might be a better idea to at least APPEAR objective even though you are not (at least that makes us stupid American have to WORK for it a little bit)... :roll:

[Schemer]

I saw the program on History Channel (Canada) and found it quite interesting. No idea if the story holds water.
I was wondering what others who saw it thought. Has there been much discussion on these forums about possible scenarios?

[timmyg00]

here we go again :roll:

TG

[Schemer]

I guess that means it has been discussed already??
And not in an intelligent, unbiased manner? ;)

[Ula Jolly]

Upon reading this, a name appears in my head. Scorpion?
:roll:

[PeriscopeDepth]

i think this is gonna be interesting for all.


No, it won't. It's been beaten to death on every sim forum I'm a member of. Been beaten to death for about what, four years now? Strangely enough it's always someone from the fUSSR that brings it up.

Shocking, positvely shocking.

:roll:

[JoeL_221]

With compilments to Kapitian, here is a link to his original post about this:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=35711

[JoeL_221]

And just for fun, here is a link to a site that might shed some more light on the French documentary:
http://www.jp-petit.com/Koursk/Koursk2.htm

Imagine, torpedos that travel 6000 knots, wow!

[TLAM Strike]

Upon reading this, a name appears in my head. Scorpion?
:roll: Naw there was no foul play involved in the Scorpion but we all know Squalus went down when Soviet frogmen jammed her hatch open. :shifty:



:-j

[awood6535]

This is the translated version with nothing left out.


Now on History Channel in Canada goes series about the submarines. Two series from this series it is devoted to Kursk. One of them already passed, the today- second. Here is the description of the first series that fought of one topika: At first showed that the fact that we already saw and they knew. As when this happened, and as our military chiefs to this they reacted. Usual personnel. Women in hysterics and entire such. Charges to Putin, that it remained on leisure in the Black sea. They showed Ilya klebanova, if you remember, it was then vice- premier minister. They showed as Klebanov it stood silently before the women fallen into hysterics without knowing that to answer. We already a little were weakened, well, it is said, it will be now... they will pass from the soul on our. And here sudden turning. You, probably remember that there was this version in some newspapers, that, it is said, was a number the foreign submarine, and it was like as collision, and then detonated torpedoes in "Kursk". this all remained absurd invention, and as a result, after two-year-old consequence, in 2002 was supply with sounied the official version, according to which the torpedo in the forward hold spontaneously exploded, then according to the chain reaction exploded entire ammunition, that also entailed the loss of submarine and crew. Now about the fact that they here showed us in this film. They showed that there were two American submarines in the region of maneuvers. They were on the special-task, following the maneuvers. One submarine "Memphis" went under the cover of another boat "Toledo" in the shadow. Like, as soon as one on the screens of all radars and sonars. Then "Memphis" it emerged from under its leading boat in order to rather better investigate the starting of ballistic missile from "Kursk" without having calculated course and distance. Americans proved to be in the head-on course and they encountered in the frontal direction with our. They passed by entire body of the most vulnerable second section of "Kursk". But the most terrible happened then. On the second American boat "Toledo", observing entire picture, captain solved, that the Russians by what that means attacked "Memphis" and for long without thinking, it let out torpedo on "Kursk". Torpedo fell directly into the weakened part at the joint of the second and third sections and was torn inside. In the film they showed computer variation with the participation of all three boats about that as all it occurred. Our aircraft, on the fresh tracks, fixed grease spots on the water on the course of outgoing from the place of incident strange submarine. In some newspapers wrote that there was the foreign submarine, like as English, and we all about this they read Now about the fact that we accurately did not know. It occurs, our conducted these two American submarines before all events and they accurately knew that these were Americans in the observation. After collision and attack on "Kursk" the Minister of Defense of the Sergeys raised two antisubmarine squadrons into air. They immediately reported to the south to Putin. And at the same moment to the connection with The the putinym left Americans. After connection with the Americans Putin recalled aircraft and, after all, Putin (or its command) made the decision to remain in the south in order not to provoke the forcing of tension. Everything, occurs, it was on the edge of precipice. The director OF TSRU for the consultations urgently arrived to Moscow. All this time Putin was constantly on the connection with Billom Clinton. As a result to the boat no one they allowed to approach, although entire peace proposed expert assistance. We all indeed thought that it is possible to save someone. Through several days our agreed to release Danes, but with the strictest order not to swim up to the nose of boat. Danes knew how to open hatchway in the eighth section, they found several posthumous records, and they confirmed that no one survived inside the boat. The work of already our divers occurred after this. They no longer worried about boat itself, its reactor and killed seamen. It occurs from the bottom near "Kursk", quickly were removed the pieces and the fragments of American "Memphis". Those Russian newspapers, which nevertheless managed to publish the satellite photographs of the "suspicious foreign" of submarine on the repair in the Norwegian port were here forced against nail FSB. This submarine was actually American "Memphis" and it reached Norway 7 days instead of 2 usual. Another American boat "Toledo" by zigzags, by nonstandard course, is shrewd in THE USA. Two representatives of the Russian military and political management Igor Sergey and Ilya klebanov, which do not dispatch on to occasion and they defended American track as public version they were as a result sent for the resignation. For a while (about two weeks after incident) entire previous Russian debt TO THE USA it was annulled, and America granted new credit to 10 billion dollars to Russia. Each family, of the killed in "Kursk" seamen, obtained unthinkable compensation into 25 000 dollars. To Putin, that not it is less, it was necessary to understand boat for raising the political image. To the lift of "Kursk" yr later, was signed the contract with the Dutch company, only, which agreed to raise only average and tail section. All the remaining companies for the much smaller money agreed to raise entire housing wholly. Dutchmen sawed off two forward holds and exported everything else to the land. Here here us showed personnel of boat by closeup so to say on the arrival. Directly in place took a sip it gaped the enormous round hole and of edge in this hole they were squeezed inward. this they did not accurately show, because immediately this part of the fuselage was declared classified and it was subsequently liquidated as however all motion picture films. In the film were given the statements of the experts, who confirmed that only American torpedo of the new model (I do not remember its precise name), it can leave such tracks, burning outer layer and being dug in inside. Surprising film. Especially here in Canada. One, undoubtedly, the idea

[Fish]

A few weeks ago I had a conversation with Mr, van Seumeren a former director of Mammoet Transport BV company, his nephew is Frans van Seumeren who was in charge, and who made the job doable.

This conversation was after he showed some DVD's with video's made during the preparation and the actual lifting.
Impressive is just a word, some times I had goose pimples.
Anyway, afterwards I asked him if he could tell the explosion was from inside or from outside.
He smiled and told me half the world asked him that question.
The explosion, he sayd, was from inside.
He also told that , in his opinion, the Kursk was raised to use what could ,to finish a half finished other submarine, waiting in a shipyard nearby.

[XabbaRus]

Mammomet released a great DVD about Kursk with a book published near where I live.

VEry interesting/

[Ula Jolly]

By "Scorpion" I was rather pointing to the whole hysteria of theories than the exact nature of the accident.
I recall hearing something about torpedoes falling to the ground during reloading on a naval base, and several other theories. I'll settle with knowing that I don't know what I don't know. What I hope, is that those left behind have their questions answered, correctly.

[Sea Demon]

Doesn't this belong in General Discussion Forum???

At any rate, this topic is a................ :zzz:

Sea Demon

[Rip]

Just goes to show how gullable people are.

It was actually a bomb planted in the shipyard. We plant them on all the Russian and Chinese ships. Got carried away and detonated by accident.

Sometimes it is hard to tell what their intentions are, being so poorly trained and the ships being so noisy and failure prone. If in doubt we just go ahead and blow them up. If we could just get more linguists so we can translate what we listen to over the microphones that we plant when we plant the bombs this would probably happen less.

Personally I am for planting smaller explosives to just disable the power plants. I mean we shouldn't take advantage of them just because we are so far more advanced. Right?

:hulk:

[SquidB]

No....can...not...resist...must...reply....to...th is.....thread.

Ok the Kursk sank...(killing mind you all those on board) and we speculate on whether it was an accident or something more juicy.

Guess what....Ill bet my mortgage none of you knows what really happend. Also that speculation wont bring the poor fukkers on that boat back.

e=Luv you all, but hell this isnt the latest stargate episiode.
PS...I am rather pissed ( USA=drunk) so calm down :|\

[Bellman]

Wonder what it is about this forum that attracts the 'Wind-up' merchants.

Reaction ? ;)

[Kapitan]

for a start kursk is not an SSN she is classified as SSGN (cruise missile submarine)

secondly theres no way she could have been involved ina collission siesmic evidence states that

a collission with a western submarine would have been serious if not fatal for the western boat at the time of the accident kursk was moving close to 20 knots if any vessel hit kursk im pretty sure it be the wester navy launching the rescue mission.

kursk wieghs 24,000 tonnes that 8000tonnes more than an ohio so thats like 2 los angeles and an ohio put together and you still dont get the total wieght.

any submarine western that is came into contact with kursk at that speed would have been flattend ie seriously damaged and would have had to surface right inside the russian battle group (suicidal)

we would have know immediatly if a western boat had been involvolved in sinking kursk the russians would have borded and ceased the western submarine and if the western crew resisted the sub would have been sunk

(standing orders states any forign vessel monitering exercises or such can be borded if it has cause an accident or serious damage or killed or fired a torpedo at another vessel it goes on to say if during bording the crew resists then all units are cleard to open fire)

with 16 ASW ships and a air craft carrier full of ASW helicopters and cruisers destroyers ect it be total suicide

as for collission jamming torpedo into tube i think not the highest toredo tube on the sub is some 10 feet from where the main blast took place (torpedo in lower tube caused disaster probly from tube number 3 533cm)

kursk was designed to take serious damage and still survive she was designed to take a direct hit with two compartments flooded and serious hull damage and yet still come home so a collission with this submarine would probly do extencive damage but nothing as serious enough to sink her

according to reports and my big red file thats jam packed with things on the kursk (about 700 pages worth) the only senario that fits is the one of a torpedo explosion onboard

as for ramming another sub then opening the outer door is total bolla*s you would never shoot a torpedo at point blank 1) wouldnt enable 2) you'd kill yourself

[Bellman]

:cool: Guess that takes care of ithe topic Mein Kapitain.

There is still need for a further formal enquirey. :roll:

It is a matter of great concern that possibly 'under the influence' of
those authorities that carefully oversee 'delicate matters' certain issues have been quietly side-lined. :huh:

Questions must be answered :-

Where has Lennie and co gone ?
Why were they spirited away ?
What harm had they done ?
Were those colours significant ?
Conspiracy theorists suggest links to Chernobyl ?
Has there been a humour by-pass ?

We expect more 'Out of Russia' particularly when avator competition is reaching new heights.
Now hard on the heels of the MS Penguin Slapper and the Gobbling Shark we have the wonderful
Captain Courage avator to be seen over at the NCHQ forum.

Yes its a Prussian Gerbel with bazooka - it dont get better :up:

[Kapitan]

lmao bellman

your a great guy and glad your part of the forum :D as for kursk im always digging into it asking about and around but its going to be a long time before anything comes of it all

as for lennie he is back with avengance :ahoy:

[Bellman]

:ping: Very neat.

Looks like a telescope but, am very suspicious that it may be a vodka bottle. ;)

Anyways top marks for style Mein Kapitain. :|\

[Kapitan]

cheers bellman :()1:

[Bellman]

:rotfl: They just get better. :rock: :rock:

[Kapitan]

lol yup

[Sea Demon]

Hey Kapitain and Bellman......you guys need to get a room. :oops: :-j

Sea Demon

[Kapitan]

im so sorry to break you heart bellman but im taken :D i have a girl friend

psst just hope she dont find out about us :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bellman]

:rotfl:

Hey the wife and family will just love those sheep :up:

Sea Demon - you have a developed/warped imagination. :oops: :huh: :huh:

[Sea Demon]

:rotfl:
Sea Demon - you have a developed/warped imagination. :oops: :huh: :huh:

:lol: :up:

[Konovalov]

Hey Kapitain and Bellman......you guys need to get a room. :oops: :-j

Sea Demon

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Now this conspiracy theory Kurk sinking thread has taken on some real credibility finally. :-j

[Kapitan]

:rotfl: yep sure has :D

[Bellman]

:rotfl:

Hardly dare post alongside ye now - young sir !

:rotfl:

[Kapitan]

loldont worry im 100% straight :D

[Bellman]

:lol: :yep: :up: :up:

[Kapitan]

i am :D

[Bellman]

:) OK - not disputed :up: Should it matter ?

:lol: That Sea Demon does worry me though - in this cyberspace of poseurs he may be a 15 year old girl
just winding us up with his/her/its insinuations :stare: :huh:

:rotfl:

[Kapitan]

lmao lol :rotfl:

[Sea Demon]

That Sea Demon does worry me though - in this cyberspace of poseurs he may be a 15 year old girl
just winding us up with his/her/its insinuations :stare: :huh:


Fair enough Bellman. :lol: But it's not me who has his tongue so far up "Mein Kapitain's" arse, I can taste his tonsils. :-j

Sea Demon

[Kapitan]

i resent that sea deamon if you got something to say to me do it face to bloody face dont go prannying around cause i take it personaly :hulk:

[Sea Demon]

i resent that sea deamon if you got something to say to me do it face to bloody face dont go prannying around cause i take it personaly :hulk:

Calm down, Kapitain. It was a joke. Don't you see the little jester emoticon next to my statement. It was in response to Bellman's statement that I may be an him/her/it. And I thought that Bellman's reply about me was darn funny. :up: Good one, Bellman. And you Kapitain need to learn to take a joke. :stare:

Sea Demon

Oh, yeah, and you seemed to find the jab at me funny to. Are you the type that can only dish it out, and not take it????? :D

[Kapitan]

maybe for you but to me a joke is a waste of time effort and language

[Sea Demon]

maybe for you but to me a joke is a waste of time effort and language

So you can dish it out, but not take it. BTW, I see you joking alot and laughing on many of these forums, so chill out, bro. Arguing about something ridiculous like this is a waste of my time, so bye.

But you sure are a sensitive one.

Sea Demon

[Kapitan]

sorry yeah your right my stress level is running off the rails at the moment plus im ill and tired it doesnt help me

[Sea Demon]

sorry yeah your right my stress level is running off the rails at the moment plus im ill and tired it doesnt help me

No problem Kapitain. I think you're a great guy. Get some sleep. I consider you a good subsim friend. :up:

SD

[Kapitan]

cheers

[Sea Demon]

Aye, Aye.....Kapitain.

And cheers to you to Bellman. :up:

Sea Demon

[Bellman]

:) Cheers guys.

Missed the action due to collision with a case of ice-cool 'Export' :up:

[Kapitan]

yep lol my fault on that inccident i saw it the wrong way lol :D ack well all in the name of sorta wierd fun

[Rip]

i resent that sea deamon if you got something to say to me do it face to bloody face dont go prannying around cause i take it personaly :hulk:

Calm down, Kapitain. It was a joke. Don't you see the little jester emoticon next to my statement. It was in response to Bellman's statement that I may be an him/her/it. And I thought that Bellman's reply about me was darn funny. :up: Good one, Bellman. And you Kapitain need to learn to take a joke. :stare:

Sea Demon

Oh, yeah, and you seemed to find the jab at me funny to. Are you the type that can only dish it out, and not take it????? :D


In Russia joke tells you :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

ok

[Perseus]

Unbelievable, the crap you read on this Kursk-thang...

As the man from Mammoet company said, the explosion came from inside-out, not from outside.

What happened was one of the accidents captains fear most: a mishandling of a torpedo, or a torpedo performing a "hot run" inside the boat.

Don't forget, Oscar II boats have a double hull, and even if one torpedo's fuel tank had exploded - without the warhead, which we assume wasn't activated - then, in theory, only the inner hull would most likely have ruptured. Because as the bulkheads were obviously not closed, approximately 30% of the blast would have gone straight through the sub.

As you can see on this photo,

http://www.smit.com/kursk/photos/testingworks/Damage-alongsidekl.jpg

the quite tough metal of the outer hull is blown outwards, not inwards.

On the "myth" of another sub colliding with the Kursk...

Simply do the math.

In order for a submarine collision to do enough damage to set off an explosion, that submare must have made at least 80 knots for its hull to penetrate that of the Kursk, and even then the colliding submarine would never have made it back home - it would have sunk together with the Kursk.

Then look at the location where the Kursk sank - not far from Poliyarni.
Any Russian submariner will tell you that sub drivers like to order drills not long after leaving port - especially torpedo drills.

For many submariners on the Kursk, that fateful tour of duty was their first. Any average Russian submarine captain would have ordered (torpedo) drills as a habit; almost every captain knows that even today, Russian training standards at academies and for non-commissioned sailors are well below Western standards, and so are security levels.

Something went wrong, something inside the Kursk torpedo room, and it caught everyone by surprise. If bulkheads were left open during a drill, which some specialists have said was the case, then that is one hell of a mistake to make, especially because most Russian experienced submarines knew (and know) quite well that their torpedoes are highly unstable.

[Kapitan]

Then look at the location where the Kursk sank - not far from Poliyarni.
Any Russian submariner will tell you that sub drivers like to order drills not long after leaving port - especially torpedo drills.

yes its a big habbit taken from the early days of the cold war when the first to fire was the victor torpedo drills are run daily through every russian submarine even in port on work up exercises


Russian training standards at academies and for non-commissioned sailors are well below Western standards, and so are security levels.

i beg to differ training is acctualy at western standards many of the kursk officers were trained by the british and in fact many sailors and officers do study at british naval academys, while i was in oxford many people i spoke to were russian and were planning a naval carear albeit with the merchant fleets (went to oxford university witha friend for open day last year)

as for security on the bases it is top whack you have to carry a special pass book to even allow you near the bases to get on the book must be stamped and you must be signed in and same goes when you exit
any person found bording a submarine or ship without permission or is acting suspeisiously is stopped if they resist then the marines that patrol the bases can shoot (thier guns are loaded)
security is very tight before you enter any part of the base you are seacrched and put through a metal detector and dogs routinely patrol the base all of which are armed

roughly 45,000 marine personel patrol the bases and around 1/4 of them have dogs on average there is always some one closer than a small run distance from any part of the base air defence is also at top level and ASW and ASuW mesures are also in place
there is even members of the FSB (not officaly recognised) working on the base in some capacity

so security up there is real real tight


Any Russian submariner will tell you that sub drivers like to order drills not long after leaving port - especially torpedo drills.

yes we do i do it on dangerous waters i always make torpedos ready to fire even when im only 30 mins from port it might be a game but there is some seriousness in it all

If bulkheads were left open during a drill, which some specialists have said was the case, then that is one hell of a mistake to make, especially because most Russian experienced submarines knew (and know) quite well that their torpedoes are highly unstable.

standard proceadure is all men to thier compartments then all bulkhead doors close they are not re opend untill the call for battle stations is withdrawn so the kursks bulkhead doors would have been totaly closed it is SOP and with civilian members onboard a proceadure in which would be carryed out to the full for impression

a torpedo was dropped on the queyside just before loading and this is probly the torpedo that malfunctioned

[Nexus7]

As already said, there's a lot of crap being told about this disaster already, also on TV.
So let me add my 2 gramms of crap :shifty:

On a documentary i saw yesterday, the final resque roughly proceeded as follows:

a. russian resque sub failed to get in position to try to perform a resque. It's been told the russian resque sub was outdated and unsuitable.

b. england toke steps to bring it's ultra-high-tech-non-plus-ultra-resque-sub on the area.

c. the final resque attempt has not been made by ultra-high-tech-non-plus-ultra-resque-sub but has been performed by norvegian deep-frogmen witch proceded as follows:

1. With an hammer, knock on the hull in the hope to receive an answer from inside. No answer.
1a. Still doesnt mean there's nobody alive.

2. Open the main "entrance" of the Kursk.
2a. Main entrance is flooded.
2b. Assumption there are no chances left for someone to be still alive inside.

3. Open the internal door.
3a. Quite a quantity of bubbles raises from the internal (there was air :o )
3b. citation "later on it's been clear that this air was unsuitable for life" (how do they know? they encapsulated that air at the surface for analysis?)


I am probably missing something here :roll:

[Perseus]

As already said, there's a lot of crap being told about this disaster already, also on TV.
So let me add my 2 gramms of crap :shifty:

On a documentary i saw yesterday, the final resque roughly proceeded as follows:

a. russian resque sub failed to get in position to try to perform a resque. It's been told the russian resque sub was outdated and unsuitable.

b. england toke steps to bring it's ultra-high-tech-non-plus-ultra-resque-sub on the area.

c. the final resque attempt has not been made by ultra-high-tech-non-plus-ultra-resque-sub but has been performed by norvegian deep-frogmen witch proceded as follows:

1. With an hammer, knock on the hull in the hope to receive an answer from inside. No answer.
1a. Still doesnt mean there's nobody alive.

2. Open the main "entrance" of the Kursk.
2a. Main entrance is flooded.
2b. Assumption there are no chances left for someone to be still alive inside.

3. Open the internal door.
3a. Quite a quantity of bubbles raises from the internal (there was air :o )
3b. citation "later on it's been clear that this air was unsuitable for life" (how do they know? they encapsulated that air at the surface for analysis?)


I am probably missing something here :roll:

Yip you are

The bubbles weren't air but carbon monoxide. After spending hours in compartment 9, lieutenant Koliasnov decided that the filters in the air refreshing apparatus had to be replaced. These filters were made of a chemical and one of the submariners accidently dropped one of the filters into a bucket filled with generator fuel. The ensuing explosion killed at least 5 ppl instantly and consumed all remaining oxygen, leaving the others to die slowly and painfully.

[Perseus]

so security up there is real real tight
Sorry, was real tired yesterday, didn't mean security but safety.

[Nexus7]

The bubbles weren't air but carbon monoxide. After spending hours in compartment 9, lieutenant Koliasnov decided that the filters in the air refreshing apparatus had to be replaced. These filters were made of a chemical and one of the submariners accidently dropped one of the filters into a bucket filled with generator fuel. The ensuing explosion killed at least 5 ppl instantly and consumed all remaining oxygen, leaving the others to die slowly and painfully.

:hmm: filters... bucket with fuel... explosion.... carbon monoxide........ logical sequence for sure!

But how could they figure from the external? Did they know that?

blub blub blub blub blub blub :o

[Kapitan]

because there was still trapped pokets of air inside the submarine even after the hatch was open

not to mention the fact the submarine was knee deep in water as well when the second explosion took place so it added to the already hard conditions

the air was tested after it was collected from inside the submarine its like when you throw a flat flanne into the bath water there is nearly always a little buble of air that purtrudes its the same thing

[Perseus]

The bubbles weren't air but carbon monoxide. After spending hours in compartment 9, lieutenant Koliasnov decided that the filters in the air refreshing apparatus had to be replaced. These filters were made of a chemical and one of the submariners accidently dropped one of the filters into a bucket filled with generator fuel. The ensuing explosion killed at least 5 ppl instantly and consumed all remaining oxygen, leaving the others to die slowly and painfully.

:hmm: filters... bucket with fuel... explosion.... carbon monoxide........ logical sequence for sure!

But how could they figure from the external? Did they know that?

blub blub blub blub blub blub :o

Well they actually didn't need to catch carbon monoxide bubbles, the scorchmarks in compartment 9 and the burned bodies of those killed by the explosion were tell-tale signs of what had happened. Sad, sad story, though, because this lieutenant Koliasnov kept trying to reach other compartments via the intercom, which was running on its own, undamaged generator, but to no avail.

By the way, post mortem examination of the bodies in compartment 9 also showed lethal concentrations of carbon monoxide in muscles, plasma and organs.

What always did strike me as 'odd' was that, right after the two explosions which essentially ripped open the entire bow, the officers in the command room apparently had the time to order an emergency blow. Unfortunately, of course, there was no use for that as the water rushed in so incredibly fast that the ballast tanks couldn't make a difference anymore.

But that emergency order must have been given FAST.

[Nexus7]

By the way, post mortem examination of the bodies in compartment 9 also showed lethal concentrations of carbon monoxide in muscles, plasma and organs.



OK on the afterward examinations, but what I was rather asking is: how did the resque team know there was no life inside anymore? When did they 'give the hope up' ?

What i saw in the documentary is that being flooded the entry, they assumed the whole compartment was flooded, witch apparently was a false deduction...

[Kapitan]

the interconecting chamber was flooded which tells you that the compartment presure is equal to the outside presure thats why the milk wasnt sucked in it just stayed there

after 8 days i think every one gave up i doubt no one could survive for longer thana day or two especialy since the compartment was flooding all the time and pressure rising

what you saw when the air rushed out was carbon monoxide it was just trapped pockets nothing else if the whole compartment wasnt flooded then there would be a suction and it would probly have pulled the divers in to the submarine

[Takeda Shingen]

A few things, Kapitan:


1. The submerged displacement of an Oscar II is 18,300, not 24,000. That is less than a single Ohio at 18,750, submerged.

2. If detected, the American submarine would just sprint away. The Russians would not fire in persuit, turning an uncomfortable situation into an outright shooting war.

3. Officers are not non-coms, and regardless of what your friends have told you, most naval analysts have confirmed that Russian non-com training still lags far behind the western equivalent nations.


Carry on.

[Kapitan]

1. The submerged displacement of an Oscar II is 18,300, not 24,000. That is less than a single Ohio at 18,750, submerged

after diliberation much work and acctualy seeing an oscar and standing on the upper casing of an oscar i know for a 100% fact the displacement is 24,000 tonne.

i have reaserch russian submarines ever since i first visited russia and that is about 10 years ago. i have spent painful hours researching every class going and im still not done.

im privlaged that i can acctualy go on these vessels and talk first hand to officers and crew many of whom are friends with my stepfather obviously we dont sit and chat about the classified stuff but displacement is not classified and it is 24,000 tonnes and it is officaly recognised.

If detected, the American submarine would just sprint away. The Russians would not fire in persuit, turning an uncomfortable situation into an outright shooting war.

yes its S.O.P but if a collision occored with a oscar then the sub would surface because of damage and thus engauged by russian forces
again the sub would have to surender the russians would boar the vessel and would tow it back to poliyarni where it would be impounded and crew imprisioned (this is fact S.O.P OF NAVAL EXERCISE FOLLOWING MAJOR ACCIDENT WITH FORIGN COUNTERPART)



3. Officers are not non-coms, and regardless of what your friends have told you, most naval analysts have confirmed that Russian non-com training still lags far behind the western equivalent nations.

officers are trained at glasgow and liverpool and are trained also by the royal navy i know this again for fact news papers such as navy news are chipping in on the act there was a article saying that there was russians training in england which they do because i do talk to them i have russians at my college and they are also going into the russian navy

not 100% up to standard but they are nearly there and not far off youve seen the reports of them training with india america japan britain NATO doesnt it show you they can do everything we do and possibly more

ive spent a long time researching kursk 5 years in fact from the day it happend for some one who has been to russia been on a submarine similar to kursk to speak with officers and crew to acctualy get info fast is well pretty good.

i know things that are not classified that just been elabarated hence the displacement the speed the weapons i dont know much more than the average joe in some places but in others i know far more ive been there ive seen it i know what it looks like ive felt it

so please dont tell me crap that i know of and know it aint true :D thanks

[Takeda Shingen]

[quote]

after diliberation much work and acctualy seeing an oscar and standing on the upper casing of an oscar i know for a 100% fact the displacement is 24,000 tonne.

i have reaserch russian submarines ever since i first visited russia and that is about 10 years ago. i have spent painful hours researching every class going and im still not done.

im privlaged that i can acctualy go on these vessels and talk first hand to officers and crew many of whom are friends with my stepfather obviously we dont sit and chat about the classified stuff but displacement is not classified and it is 24,000 tonnes and it is officaly recognised.

Norman Polmar of The Naval Institute and Robert Hutchinson of Janes Fighting Ships disagree with you.


yes its S.O.P but if a collision occored with a oscar then the sub would surface because of damage and thus engauged by russian forces
again the sub would have to surender the russians would boar the vessel and would tow it back to poliyarni where it would be impounded and crew imprisioned (this is fact S.O.P OF NAVAL EXERCISE FOLLOWING MAJOR ACCIDENT WITH FORIGN COUNTERPART)

Not likely.



officers are trained at glasgow and liverpool and are trained also by the royal navy i know this again for fact news papers such as navy news are chipping in on the act there was a article saying that there was russians training in england which they do because i do talk to them i have russians at my college and they are also going into the russian navy

not 100% up to standard but they are nearly there and not far off youve seen the reports of them training with india america japan britain NATO doesnt it show you they can do everything we do and possibly more

ive spent a long time researching kursk 5 years in fact from the day it happend for some one who has been to russia been on a submarine similar to kursk to speak with officers and crew to acctualy get info fast is well pretty good.

i know things that are not classified that just been elabarated hence the displacement the speed the weapons i dont know much more than the average joe in some places but in others i know far more ive been there ive seen it i know what it looks like ive felt it

so please dont tell me crap that i know of and know it aint true :D thanks

Once again, officers are not non-coms. Perhaps you need to do some more research.

[Kapitan]

Norman Polmar of The Naval Institute and Robert Hutchinson of Janes Fighting Ships disagree with you.

he aint the only one mate i know exactly how much an oscar II SSGN displaces norman polmar has probly never even stepped foot inside a modern russian submarine for a start id doubt he would even get as far as the front gates all he does is go to the submarine vetrens club in st petersburg and is fed the information.

now i have a folder that is way over 700 pages in length detailing every bit of the oscar II class SSGN from things like the size of the torpedo tubes to what reactors it uses (which isnt classified how they work is ) (oscar II SSGN uses OK-650B reactors)

in that folder every bit of information detailing wieght and displacement all totals 24,000 tonnes i know what im talking about as i said earlier ive been there seen it ect i get annoyed that people seem to think that its some thing diffrent because officals state it

24,000 tonnes is listed in many online sites but i dont get my information from there it comes from people in the know ie the people who work on the dam thing all they tell me is the little bits bits they can tell me like displacement ect because its not classified


Not likely.

uss gudgon i belive it was an old diesel submarine was forced to the surface by russian destroyers after it wsa found to be inside russian waters the russians let out a small depth charge attack (with grenades) and trapping the submarine under the water for 36 hours finaly forcing her to surface

if this was a naval exercise you can bank on the fact the russians would have boarded the vessel and taken the crew prisioner as they did with american pilots did they not so a submarine crew would be a great prize.

now america doesnt officaly go into russian waters (but we all know they do) the same thing can happen and by international law the russians can capture a vessel and imprision its crew if it resisted then it can be attacked
back in the iraq war in 2003 royal navy sailors in a rigid raider we captured by iran forces and taken prisioner there is no diffrence
its a violation to violate terratorial waters it can be seen as a hostile intent




Once again, officers are not non-coms. Perhaps you need to do some more research.

in terms of theroy work they are the equal in terms of the practical there a bit behind but not far behind only about 5 or so years i know russians train at colleges i have russians at my college so you cant realy tell me that they dont exisit when i speak to them nearly every day [/quote]

[Kapitan]

i suggest you take a look at russian standard oparating proceadures

[Takeda Shingen]

I trust the printed research of well-established naval experts. Sorry.


I am well acquainted with naval law. However, you and I know very well that the US plays by its own rules (look at the Cuban Missile crisis for an example). Bluster aside, there is no way that the US government would stand by and allow the Russians to tow one of their boats into port, regardless of how right the Russians were.

This is a question of international politics, not operating procedures.

[Kapitan]

yes it is very true but i doubt america would attack russia i can understand you trusting naval what you mc call its but take a look at thier back ground norman polmar spends more time researching air craft than naval vessels

norman polmar well i severly doubt has even set foot in a russian submarine base and i doubt more that he has even been on a russian front line submarine the diffrence here is i have i shout about ive been on them yes but i dont shout about whats inside them

we know america plays by its own rules and one day it will become unstuck cuban missile crisis again stopping ships in international waters can be seen as piracy did you know that all russian submarines had orders to fire if they saw any ship being borded by the americans?

anyways kreschev got what he wanted in the end the removal of missiles from turkey the cuban missile crisis was only basicaly to prove a point that america isnt invincible (september 11th showed us that)

[Takeda Shingen]

Who said anything about attacking Russia? The US would put its diplomatic foot down like it has done time and time again, thus forcing Russia to relent in the towing of the submarine. The US can do this soley because it is the US.


Kapitan, standing on a submarine is different than researching them. I still trust the experts more than you.


Finally, the orders to the Foxtrots are irrelevant. Do you even know why the Russians wanted to put the missiles in Cuba? It was not just Turkey, but Germany and the whole of Europe as well. The USSR sought equality in missile placement, as its homeland was endangered from the European missiles. Cuban missiles would go "tit-for-tat" with the US. Yes, the Turkish placments were removed, but the European missiles remained. In this case, the Soviets did not get what they wanted.

[Kapitan]

its all in the name of information im not a cuban missile crisis buff but i know enough to get through but did you know not all missiles were removed air defence and ASM missiles remained and so did 4 golf class SSB's

i can understand you trusting a naval analyst but the point is has he been there done that probly not.

putting the diplomatic foot down is hard at the moment especialy with putin in power he can be a right ass hole at times but anyways

[Bellman]

Kapitain, glad to see youre still here after the Putin stuff - thought the next post might be Goulag sourced. :lol:

Take note the 'Mein' has gone ( and Mon Cher for the French) in response to the homophobic She Demon -
shorry these teeth, I meant Sea Demon. Havent heard much from him(?) lately. :-j

[Kapitan]

ive not sheen him too :( hope nothing happend to her :-j