View Full Version : The X1/Seewolfe debate and Matrix Games
Here's an interesting development. Apparently this subject is too hot for a certain moderator at the Matrix Games site. Check this out:
http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D910065%26mpage%3D1%26key%3D%26%239122 76
Apart from the effort to stifle discussion, one good thing is that (according to the moderator) apparently Matrix Games will not be publishing Seewolfe.
Shadow9216
07-29-05, 09:33 AM
Oh, now that's some CRAP!
I'm sorry for the language, but I think I've been pretty reasonable all along; I've asked for, and supplied, evidence and laid out the salient points in clear, well-thought arguments. What happened over there is an effront to anyone capable of rational thought.
Although the gentleman stated he offered food for thought and didn't want to defend anyone, he sure did a good job spouting the X1 party line; closing the debate certainly seems a fair and balanced measure.
Beery, nice try in there. It's truly sad that many officials are rushing to condemn the work of yourself and others in this community, not only to develop works but also to ferret out wrongdoings. Apparently the quest for dollars can win out over protection of the individual and his/her property.
This whole thing about the "illegal download of the beta version" :rotfl:
Unfortunately there isn't a "puking" icon as well- the fact that X1 has managed to convince Matrix that they merely had a work in progress on the server flies in the face of the evidence at hand- much of it released by X1 themselves to Terrapin and others.
To jump into an ongoing debate and claim guilt on both parties, followed up with the "lynch-mob" accusation... :nope: What does it take to convince them?
If I stole his car, then told the police I was thinking of buying one myself and just borrowed his to try it out, would he be so quick to defend me? Or would he join the "mob"?
Methinks there needs to be a counter to the "lynch mob"...perhaps the "X1 Sycophants, Suck Ups, and Assorted Yes-Men, Inc". Or X1 Bee-yatches.
No, scratch that, that last was over the top. Just my anthrax acting up again.
terrapin
07-29-05, 09:48 AM
all the quoted passage are from M. Schwanebeck, forum moderator at matrixgames.com
1. Certain people illegally downloaded a pre beta version of the addon from the X1 FTP and act like it was the final retail version allready on the store shelves.
Pre beta? Huh?? According to the statement by X1 that the thing went gold more than a week ago initially and the build on the server was from this month also, I can't believe it.
Illegally downloaded? The server was wide open, there was not a single line of any disclaimer to be seen.
3. The package illegally download was a pre beta version with the mods they want(ed) to add to the package. Negotiations if it´s okay to include the mods with the modmakers were, and still are, under way at that point and adding to this a lot of modmakers allready gave their okay to have the mods inlcuded, even before this incident.
It wasn't a pre beta, but the 'gold' version - and, again, nobody did something illegal to download it. Nobody could know from a readme or EULA that this was something other than another free mod pack
5. The included mods are only goodies, including mods to addons packages is no new concept.
Only Goodies? The package on the x1 server had 235 MB, the so called 'proprietary development' in that build was about ~700 kb the max.
Hehe, don't let me stop anyone going over to the Matrix forums and restarting discussion on this matter. Apparently Herr Schweinebeck's assertion that Matrix Games is not planning on taking up this expansion is in error, so it is in Matrix Games' interest to have it be an open and ongoing discussion.
I just sent a very nasty PM to our friend Herr Schweinebeck, comparing him to the nazis - naughty I know, but he's the one who acted the part.
Shadow9216
07-29-05, 10:00 AM
1. Certain people illegally downloaded a pre beta version of the addon from the X1 FTP and act like it was the final retail version allready on the store shelves.
He should be careful labelling activity as "illegal" without proof a crime took place. After all, he's defending X1 against the same crime!
3. The package illegally download was a pre beta version with the mods they want(ed) to add to the package. Negotiations if it´s okay to include the mods with the modmakers were, and still are, under way
The pre-beta argument is a joke and an insult to our intelligence. Negotiations were under way is also a joke- the negotiations happened AFTER the fact, which the good folks here have attested to...unless he's calling them liars?
I think it's the height of hypocrasy to hold us to a higher standard than X1. We provide facts, evidence of wrongdoing, while X1 provides veiled references, poorly-crafted excuses, and blatant lies; we are the ones being told to cease and desist, we are the ones who have behaved illegally, and we are incorrect because he has "the facts" straight from X1.
It looks like Marc Schweinebeck is Matrix Games go-between for X1 Software. In the thread, Erik says "Marc just spoke with Steffen of X1". Somehow I think Marc might be a little too close to X1.
jasonb885
07-29-05, 10:26 AM
It looks like Marc Schweinebeck is Matrix Games go-between for X1 Software. In the thread, Erik says "Marc just spoke with Steffen of X1". Somehow I think Marc might be a little too close to X1.
They've published his stuff in the past.
I decided not to post my thoughts about this in the main forum, since the matter on Subsim is really closed, I think.
But, it's my belief that Matrix Games is likely a shady operation not much unlike X1. Wouldn't surprise me if they ultimately go ahead and publish this junk.
Amusingly enough, I've never even heard of Matrix Games.
:hmm:
Amusingly enough, I've never even heard of Matrix Games.
:hmm:
You're not into strategy games then I guess. ;) They are rather well known in the wargaming crowed since they have published many fine wargames.
But that is off topic in regards to this X1 affair.
jasonb885
07-29-05, 10:46 AM
Well, whatever, when it comes out, still filled with mods for which permission was not given, full disclosure can be done with respect to the final product.
MatrixGames' reputation will be sealed. It would please me greatly to have the honor of going through a copy of SeaWolves, gold on CD, and locate and demonstrate where mods are identical or nearly identical to mods Steffen was not given permission to use.
Apparently I'm not finished with this, yet.
:arrgh!:
...You're not into strategy games then I guess. ;) They are rather well known in the wargaming crowed since they have published many fine wargames...
Yeah. They publish more 'hardcore' wargames and games from small developers. Who knows - they may be shady, but they are a pretty well-known company when it comes to strategy games. I would be disappointed if they went ahead and published Seewolfe, because I've been a pretty loyal customer of theirs until now.
Yea, never heard the words shady and matrixgames together. I'm a fan of Steel Panthers World at War, which is a free game (with some payware campaigns) which I fidn excellent. Heard great stuff about their huge War in the Pacific game too. Hope they do the right thing.
Immacolata
07-29-05, 01:01 PM
Dont badmouth Matrix Games in advance, Ive only had good experiences with them so far. I think we already had established that its X1 thats the bad guy here. Matrix Games might have been led a merry dance by X1 for all we know.
It looks like Marc Schweinebeck is Matrix Games...
nasty PM to our friend Herr Schweinebeck...
:rotfl:
I don´t want to interrupt this interesting tread but...
you spelled the name of this guy a little wrong, gentlemen.
Please tell me that this is not an ugly joke...
:-j
Duke of Earl
07-29-05, 02:17 PM
Matrix is not quite the 'Boy Scout' publisher... they've let a few good deals with small developers go bad...
And publishing the X1 scam-ola stuff as if it was 'pure-as-the-driven-snow' is reprehensible...
Who's foolin' who over at Matrix?
Cordialement, Duke of Earl
It seems a ban on buying from Matrix Games is in order too. Especially if they're in coohoots with X1 on this fiasco. I've never bought anything with the Matrix lable on it, and surely won't now or in the future. I also hope UBI takes heed to what's going on.
It looks like Marc Schweinebeck is Matrix Games...
nasty PM to our friend Herr Schweinebeck...
:rotfl:
I don´t want to interrupt this interesting tread but...
you spelled the name of this guy a little wrong, gentlemen.
Please tell me that this is not an ugly joke...
:-j
Sorry, I thought it was a funny joke. Perhaps if you had been effectively silenced by Herr Schweinebeck like I was, you'd be able to see more humour in it. :)
macstu23
07-29-05, 02:54 PM
This is purely conjecture on my part, but is it possible Ubi soft-in-the-head will be receiving a cut of the profits of Seawolves, as SH3 is their property? Just a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me.
And I can see it now...The 'Matrix sux' banner :lol:
Carolus Rex
07-29-05, 02:58 PM
It seems a ban on buying from Matrix Games is in order too. Especially if they're in coohoots with X1 on this fiasco. I've never bought anything with the Matrix lable on it, and surely won't now or in the future. I also hope UBI takes heed to what's going on.
Matrix games publish some of the best and most polished wargames there is. They also are very active at the forums and patches there game very good. I have only good things to say about Matrix. SH3 would have been much much better if Matrix had published the original game. They are dedicated wargamers and not money hungry people.
terrapin
07-29-05, 03:00 PM
I'd like to know why the matrixgames website shows
'Website is currently unavailable due to maintenance.'
sionce hours, in fact exactly since 1514 GMT, 63 minutes after Beery's post here and 26 minutes after Steve's report on the incident at U-Boot.Realsimulation.com...?
From what I've read, there's nothing to suggest that Matrix aren't simply being fooled by the X1 guys. You tend to trust folks you know, and they think they know X1 - they've published their games before. Whereas they don't know me from Adam. Who would you believe if someone came on these forums claiming I was a scam artist? You'd tend to believe me because you know me. That's all that's happening at Matrix. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. They say they will investigate it, so we have to respect that. If they refuse to publish Seawolves, we'll know they're good guys, and if they publish Seawolves, then we'll know that they're either evil or stupid. We shouldn't draw conclusions before that happens.
It seems a ban on buying from Matrix Games is in order too. Especially if they're in coohoots with X1 on this fiasco. I've never bought anything with the Matrix lable on it, and surely won't now or in the future. I also hope UBI takes heed to what's going on.
Disagree strongly on that policy, as I said, enjoy one of their games (albeit free) and know a few others as excellent quality. Let's not start a witchhunt now. Agree with Beery's last post.
JBClark
07-29-05, 04:52 PM
Ditto to Beery and Joea.
Justin Prince
07-29-05, 06:23 PM
It seems a ban on buying from Matrix Games is in order too. Especially if they're in coohoots with X1 on this fiasco. I've never bought anything with the Matrix lable on it, and surely won't now or in the future. I also hope UBI takes heed to what's going on.
As one of the "small developers" that use Matrix Games as a publisher, I can assure you that Matrix is not a shady operation. For those wondering, I am Tankerace on the forums, creator of "War Plan Orange: Dreadnoughts in the Pacific 1922-1930", an expansion of War in the Pacific turned standalone. While the fault is on X1 for this, It is good policy of Matrix to check out the accusations before sayign yes or no.
I agree, X1 is wrong. But, this is a witch hunt, plain and simple. Just because Matrix isn't jumping on the bandwagon you guys yell boycott. Trust me, Matrix isn't going to blindly publish something, if they say they'll check it out, they'll check it out. Now, if we see Seawolves on store shelves tomorrow I say complain all you want, but until you see it, don't automatically say that Matrix is buying in to the scam. If they were that bad, they would have taken my War Plan Orange mod, and sold it without my permission. In stead, it is now its own standalone game, with me calling the shots.
So, give credit where credit is due. Matrix has published X1 software before. They aren't going to boot them in the ass, because a bunch of people have (to Matrix) unverified claims. Let them do the research, let them verify, and let them act. Then pass judgment. It was the witchunt mentality like this that caused the deaths of hundreds of women in Salem hundreds of years ago. No one verified, they just acted. Give them time.
Now, I am not a Matrix cronie. I am an independent developer, whose only goal is to finish and get his game out. I care nothing of X1 software. But I can say that, having worked with the people at Matrix, they are pretty good people. Give them a chance. Don't stop fighting to get your mods removed, but don't start attacking the staff of Matrix personally. Marc Schwanebeck(sp) is an art director. He doesn't decide if Matrix picks something up. But he is right, in that he is not condemning X1 without proof. Give them proof, and back up your claims. Boycott X1, Hell boycott Matrix and me if you want. But, before you do, at least give them a chance. If, and IF they publish this tripe, with the stolen mods, then do what you feel is right. But don't judge before they act.
Shadow9216
07-29-05, 06:41 PM
And let's not leave anyone out. UBI still owes an explanation, and possibly an apology, to all concerned:
1) X1 software. If UBI cut a deal with them, allowing X1 to market this product, they need to fess up AND apologize to X1 for letting them hang- and possibly destroying their reputation.
2) Matrix games. Same thing, with the addition that they're essentially being forced to "side" with X1 due to a possible business arrangement. Again, a word from UBI would be in order, and possibly a "sorry for tarnishing your reputation".
3) The loyal SH3 community who will provide the longevity to this title. TV producers know the real money comes in syndication, Micrsoft has seen this with endless add-ons and licenses. UBI should realize they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by treating this community with respect and consideration. If they are behind X1, let us know so we may back off. If they've endorsed this deal, again, let us know.
It was the witchunt mentality like this that caused the deaths of hundreds of women in Salem hundreds of years ago. No one verified, they just acted...
Let's not get caught up in hyperbole. No one here is about to hang anyone at X1 or weigh them down with stones until their bodies break, like what happened in Salem. Exaggerations like this aren't accurate, and they only serve to polarize discussion and downplay the significance of real witch hunts. All we're doing here is talking. This is not 1692 Salem, it's not Nazi Germany, we are not the Mongol Horde, nor are we carrying the Black Death. Let's try to keep things in perspective on BOTH sides of the discussion.
Justin Prince
07-29-05, 09:53 PM
Truth be told, for all intents Im on your side. What X1 did was clearly wrong. All I am saying is lets discuss and inform, not declare boycotts or personal attacks on people, such as your Schweinebeck remark. I honestly doubt those will help focus on the matter at hand.
Truth be told, for all intents Im on your side. What X1 did was clearly wrong. All I am saying is lets discuss and inform, not declare boycotts or personal attacks on people, such as your Schweinebeck remark. I honestly doubt those will help focus on the matter at hand.
Schweinebeck, witch hunt. I say tomayto, you say tomato. :rotfl:
Actually I'm English, so I would never say tomayto. :88)
Anyway, what's so bad about Schweinebeck? It means 'Pigsbrook'. I think I showed great restraint. There are lots of worse names for folks like him.
KiloAlpha4
07-30-05, 04:02 AM
It's only piracy when it's done to them. When they do it to you it's just business lmfao.
Justin Prince
07-30-05, 02:42 PM
Schweinebeck, witch hunt. I say tomayto, you say tomato. :rotfl:
Actually I'm English, so I would never say tomayto. :88)
Anyway, what's so bad about Schweinebeck? It means 'Pigsbrook'. I think I showed great restraint. There are lots of worse names for folks like him.
True, I am just saying X1 are the bad guys here. So, lets pelt them with said tomaytoes :rotfl:
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