Shadowing behind seabed contours: How to do it effectively?

[amrcg]

How is one supposed to find advantageous seabed contours effectively without the fathometer screen and without having to obsessively follow the instantaneous depth-below-keel indication? :(
Please bring the Jane's 688i fathometer screen back! :hulk:

Antonio

[Nydrre]

Is what you're talking about similar to the Trim and Ice Indicator screen on the Seawolf? (top right corner of the Ship Control Station) I would like to see something like what you are talking about or the screen I mentioned somewhere on all subs.

[XabbaRus]

There is some region in SE Asia where there are lots of sea hills etc in seawater that is the right depth for a sub to exploit. I think fish or Baron found the area.

I have always wanted to play and MP mission using that area as it is quite small and could be good fun.

[Bellman]

Back in the 'ice-age' I remember playing a forerunner of 688 (The name escapes me) on my old Amiga 1200. :)

The terrain was modeled very well and it was tremendous fun weaving through underwater valleys, hiding, and stalking. :up:

[MaHuJa]

There is another way to do this. First, you have to find an "optimal depth" for it, then mark just about every place (or at least so that you can see the shape) where it rises above this. I've often used this for 400' when flying, to know where I can put deep buoys and where I must use the shallow ones.

This takes a bit of manual work, and is somewhat limited, but will give you an extra visible hint on how things look. Marking the tops and putting a depth text on the marker is helpful as well.

[Amizaur]

One of things I miss most in DW are more detailed bathymetry (or bathygraphy ? not sure which word is right) lines/data on NAV map. An option I could enable (show/hide bathygraphy) and see lines indicating equal depth, plotted every 10 or even 5 meters of depth on shallow water. In some long real-time missions when I have enaugh time I try to make my own ones with markers, it looks like that:

http://members.chello.pl/m.ostrowski7/Files/poor%20man%27s%20bathymetry.jpg

In this mission I plotted them exactly with bottom-shadowing in mind, I wanted to hide behind this visible bottom "tongue' anomaly between me and my coming M02 target (pinging me with active).

Would be great if I could get such lines on map without doing them myself.
And not too hard to program I think ? Not as difficult as adding another station to game. Just another graphic option, lines showing depth more precisely than those color changes on map (which are not precise enaugh to be useful on shallow water).

Anyone else would like such feature ? :-)

[Bellman]

Except in those missions where RADM Fish has successfuly made a very careful selection of location
for topographical interest this seems to be 'minority sport' (now ?)

The Kilo diver particularly needs the facility to use terrain and for the general diver playing sub v sub
it adds an extra challenge and lots of fun. :up:

It would be an immense task to craft general area maps with enhanced topo. showing-up as 'contours'.
But if some specific map areas could be modded it would enhance playability and give another dimension to 'stealth'. :cool:

[OKO]

One of things I miss most in DW are more detailed bathymetry (or bathygraphy ? not sure which word is right) lines/data on NAV map. An option I could enable (show/hide bathygraphy) and see lines indicating equal depth ...

Sorry Amizaur, but the color of the bathymetric filter does NOT represent the depth, as your screen show it easily.

The colors represent the quality of sound propagation at this place.
In the same map, you could have a very bright zone, much deeper than a darker one. Just watch it :yep:
You have to use these zone differently if you want to hide (in brighter zone) or listen (in darker zone, where you have a much better detection possibilities)

Of course, depth have influence on sound propagation, but not only this : also the general geographic site (corridors, mount, cliff etc ...) will change the sound propagation.

So, what you see as blue color DOES NOT REPRESENT the depth but the SOUND PROPAGATION QUALITY (... SNR).

... as it was already in Sub Command ...

[Kapitan]

why dont you go to google and search ocean maps with countours i do that i play under ice nearly all the time and i have verious real world maps that help me

if you print it out and stick it in a plastic sleve then you can write on it with a dry wipe marker like i do that way you can plot a course then copy it to the nav screen :up: :|\

[Bellman]

We can imagine the contours are there :lol:
But the physical entities is not mapped in detail in the game and therefore cannot influence tactics - particularly sub v sub MP. :down:

The call is therefore to physicaly map them into some MP scenarios. ;) Contours now shown and physicaly there.

A level of detail which would only be possible by 'outwork' for certain scenarios.
I dont think the tool/s are available to scenario designers, currently ?

[Nexus7]

One of things I miss most in DW are more detailed bathymetry (or bathygraphy ? not sure which word is right) lines/data on NAV map. An option I could enable (show/hide bathygraphy) and see lines indicating equal depth,

I miss that too, when trying to hide or when engaging contacts... I think the real seamaps have those ?

[Nydrre]

One of things I miss most in DW are more detailed bathymetry (or bathygraphy ? not sure which word is right) lines/data on NAV map. An option I could enable (show/hide bathygraphy) and see lines indicating equal depth ...

Sorry Amizaur, but the color of the bathymetric filter does NOT represent the depth, as your screen show it easily.

The colors represent the quality of sound propagation at this place.
In the same map, you could have a very bright zone, much deeper than a darker one. Just watch it :yep:
You have to use these zone differently if you want to hide (in brighter zone) or listen (in darker zone, where you have a much better detection possibilities)

Of course, depth have influence on sound propagation, but not only this : also the general geographic site (corridors, mount, cliff etc ...) will change the sound propagation.

So, what you see as blue color DOES NOT REPRESENT the depth but the SOUND PROPAGATION QUALITY (... SNR).

... as it was already in Sub Command ...

Lighter zone less propogation, darker zone better propogation: gotcha
I was wondering about that... knew it wasn't depth but couldnt figure out what it was.

[amrcg]

Well, for now I think that the old Jane's 688i fathometer screen (with the depth-below-keel history) would be enough to effectively find underwater hills and valleys, which could then be marked on the map. As this feature was already present in an earlier simulator, I believe it would not be very difficult to add it to DW. I simply don't understand why they have deleted that feature when they made the upgrade to SubCommand.

Regards,
Antonio

[Amizaur]

The depth data is on the NAV map too (the SHIFT+I key pressed once disables it) only the "propagation" colours are stronger... Unfortunately the depth data is very low contrast and too unprecise (colours change only every few hundred feets) for shallow water...

[Bellman]

:up: Snap amrcq - thats the game. :up:

You could bring up various graphical representations of the 'terrain' surrounding your sub - :lol: The original 'Hide and seeker'

You got some of the same buzz with helicopter sims. Before they got too clever with gut wrenching graphics, when the Dinosaurs
ruled, you had sims. like Microsofts Gunship. Dodging behind hills, lurking in hollows , popping-up to Hellfire the c**p out of targets. Mucho fun. :rock:

:rotfl: Ok so the hills looked like Egyptian pyramids :arrgh!:

[UglyMowgli]

Microsofts Gunship.

Argrllllllllllllllllll, MICROPROSE not micro$oft!!!

And a submarine is not like an helo, you can't hide, we will find you using passive sonar, sonobuoy, MAD and if all didn't work by Active Sonar (lkilling some whales and burning shrimps at the same time) :lol: :lol: :lol:

[sonar732]

I agree with MSGalileo.

Let's say that a sub is inside a gourge like the Grand Canyon. The sound will radiate in all directions...up, down, left, and right. The sound that is traveling everywhere but up will be blocked by the sides and bottom. However, the sound that travels up will be picked up by everything passive once it gets over the "wall" if you will. The OPFOR won't know your depth, but will have a general view of where you're at. Something else to think about is that just as your sound doesn't get thru that well, the OPFOR ships or boats won't come below inside your little hidding spot.

[Bellman]

:D :D

Wow - what a revelation - wondered what I've been doing wrong for three years !

Crikey a sub is NOT like a heli - WOW !! :roll:

Just some remniniscing about early fun sims - nothing to take seriously. ;)

:D Love those penguins - eatable ? Penguin au vin ?
That slapper one looks like the wife - a mean right hook.

[Amizaur]

I was under impression that in DW you can hide behind sea bottom features from pinging active sonar (from surface ships for example). Just tested it for sure and it's true for both active and passive. If the sea bottom between you and your target is obscuring the "view" (for example there is underwater mountain between) both active and passive sonars and active intercept shows nothing.
Don't know if it's realistic for passive (probably not) but for active (especially HF) it's OK I think, at least in the game. If there is no strong SSP profile bending sonar waves down, objects behind a bottom features would be in a "shadow" zone on sonar even in a real life ?
So bathygraphy lines every 5-10m or every 30ft would be very helpfull to Kilo drivers on shallow waters, to hide in ambush behind seabed features from surface active sonars.

[MaHuJa]

http://members.chello.pl/m.ostrowski7/Files/poor%20man%27s%20bathymetry.jpg

Anyone else would like such feature ? :-)

My screen often ends up looking somewhat like that too!

Esp in the frigate, where I mark the waters edge, so that I can see the land contours on the other screens as well.


I'd like it to be with some selectable depths being marked. One, current depth. The rest defaulting at 'surface depth' (keel depth when surfaced) 'breach depth', periscope depth, 150' (or so), 400' (the buoy limit) and 1000'. With each being toggled separately if so wished, and all (except current depth) being settable to some custom depth.

Presuming they are visible in the various ffg stations, (heck, why not put them in TMA? All platforms that have tma?) also a line matching the land contours. This is something I want anyway.


As for its effect on passive, I believe the part of the signal that would reach the target would be too... diluted... to be detectable. Besides which the bearings given would be unusable.

[amrcg]

Don't know if it's realistic for passive (probably not) but for active (especially HF) it's OK I think, at least in the game. If there is no strong SSP profile bending sonar waves down, objects behind a bottom features would be in a "shadow" zone on sonar even in a real life ?.
I think it is realistic. The Bluebook on SC tactics shows a figure about propagation in which that feature is shown. They also say that it is a good tactic to employ against active torpedoes (at least until the enemy knows where you are and starts to activate and steer the torpedo behind the shadowing feature).

So bathygraphy lines every 5-10m or every 30ft would be very helpfull to Kilo drivers on shallow waters, to hide in ambush behind seabed features from surface active sonars.
That would be an alternative to the bathometer screen ONLY IF spatial resolution on the map is enough to allow distinguishing small features. If not, I would prefer the fathometer screen.

Regards,
Antonio

[Nydrre]

Doesnt the Seawolf have this feature in the Navigation Station? It shows the floor depth for some distance in front of you on the ice thickness tracker.

As for bouncing sonar in the Grand Canyon I think you could take some basic presumptions into account:

If you could see the object by having a line of sight view, I would imagine you would be able to directly detect a sub.

Otherwise the best you would come up with is a shadow. I imagine then dropping a sonobuouy over the canyon deep enough to cross a thermal layer would allow for direct detection.

Anything else would be unable to "see" the sub. You might be aware of its presence from the shadow image say from a sonobuoy that doesn't have a direct LOS but I think it would be beyond your ability to take those figures into account in this sim to determine where the sub may be.

If the canyon has a lot of twists and turns I think it would be very difficult to be aware of a subs presence unless you have sonobuoys all over the place.

[Kapitan]

under ice you have to take it nice and slow otherwise you end up coming head on to a burg so like runniong through a canyon with a blindfold under ice and seabed are the same

[JoGary(sco)]

I often hid behind sea mounds. You can also fire torps behind them and any one on the other side will not see them on sonar or get a tiw untill they come around the sea mound. By that time the tiw baring is usless.
If we had map contours then this tactic would be even easier to use. As in the screenie Amizaur posted i also mark out contours so i can follow them with a torp so they dont hit bottom. Infact in the Seawolves this is one of the most common tactics employed when there is enough hills and canyons to use.

Here is a report from last night that shows how i use thes tactics.
I hid in a hole in the sea bed and sent up a uuv to have a look around. The uuv picked up a contact that was not there when i started as i had marked all the nuetrall at mission start. I launched some 65cm and sent them around a seamount ao he would get TIW in wrong direction. 1 65cm hit the bottom but the other was homing in on the seawolf. He evaded it with CM. This gave me the pos of the Seawolf as all i had to do was add amanual solution to the place my 65cm hit the CM and send a subroc to it. I only fired 1 as i have learned my lesson about what happens when there is nuetralls about and the target is destroyed and you are left with subroc torps looking for a target :). Anyhow i only needed 1. After game i was informed that the Seawolf never had me on sonar at any time in game. This is not bad considering the diference in Akulla and Seawolf sonars. Thank You Sir for a good game.

[Bellman]

Wizard Fish had some great scenarios I think off Indonesia littered with seamounts - great fun. :rock:

Mapped contours for specific scenarios would I think further enhance playability in sub v sub MP. :cool:

[amrcg]

Contour lines would in fact solve many problems. However, I don't know if it is realistic to provide a very detailed knowledge about depth. The accident with USS San Francisco has shown how incomplete that knowledge can be in real life.

As such, I stick to my opinion. Even if a coarse depiction of depth is provide on the NAV, let small features be found only through the use of the fathometer, and again this means that the fathometer screen featured in Jane's 688i should be also present in DW.

Regards,
Antonio