View Full Version : RUB and the milk cows
It's history its correct. is RUB using the milk cow mod yet?
Historically it is correct. Unfortunaltey the way the mod works isn't so, no.
Let me clarify that. Although you get a form of refueling etc, there are, i think, too many cons and not enough pros. if you really can't live without this then it shouldn't be to much trouble to add yourself.
its nice to know that there is someone else out there helping you along. while out at see it feels alot like its you against the bloody world. The most excitment i saw was when watching Silverfox leaving port the other day. there was an eboat ahead of him and it exploded. seems the harbor traffic mod added mines. kaboom, fantastc. now how about some help out there.
Historically it is correct. Unfortunaltey the way the mod works isn't so, no.
Let me clarify that. Although you get a form of refueling etc, there are, i think, too many cons and not enough pros. if you really can't live without this then it shouldn't be to much trouble to add yourself.
There is a great myth grown up on these forums abot exactly how often a U-boat would be aided by a tender. Unfortuatly, in terms of realism, it pretty much was the boat 'against the bloody world.'
I was sure there were pretty few u-boats that saw a milkcow, so it is not historically correct to have this for all u-boats. Even those in operation Drumbeat...a few esp. type VII were resupplied but even those could operate up to CAnada and the US with careful fuel management. All milkcows were sunk.
...in any case, if the Milkcow Mod manages to get past its' teething troubles (minor bugs, no repair, no overly long layover times) - it WILL be in RUb, I'm sure.
Kron161
07-10-05, 04:37 PM
There is a great myth grown up on these forums abot exactly how often a U-boat would be aided by a tender. Unfortuatly, in terms of realism, it pretty much was the boat 'against the bloody world.'
There was a good deal of resupply operations that did not envolve the secrecy of a tender in a neutral port or high seas nor the rare but exceptional operations of the milk cows....! Indeed, many ressuplies (much more than those done by tenders or milk cows) were arranged by Doenitz when one U-boot was returning home after a patrol. Doenitz asessed the returning sub's fuel and torpedo status and eventually would arrange a mid-sea encounter. The sub going to the patrol zone would top its torpedo load, but specially its fuel tanks load from any excess that came out from BdU's calculation of what the returning sub needed to get back to harbour.
Kapitänleutnant Bleichrodt on U-109 was paranoic about being short of fuel, and usually instructed his chief ingenier to cheat when he had to transfer fuel to other subs. If you read "Hirchsfeld, secret diary of an U-boat" you will realize that this kind of resupply meetings between frontline boats was much common than that of subs with tankers or milk cows.
Bleichrodt's concerns about fuel was one of the reasons of his nervous breakdown during a patrol that ended with the BdU landing him & not allowing him to go on war patrol again.
Capn Tucker
07-10-05, 05:34 PM
There is a great myth grown up on these forums abot exactly how often a U-boat would be aided by a tender. Unfortuatly, in terms of realism, it pretty much was the boat 'against the bloody world.'
There was a good deal of resupply operations that did not envolve the secrecy of a tender in a neutral port or high seas nor the rare but exceptional operations of the milk cows....! Indeed, many ressuplies (much more than those done by tenders or milk cows) were arranged by Doenitz when one U-boot was returning home after a patrol. Doenitz asessed the returning sub's fuel and torpedo status and eventually would arrange a mid-sea encounter. The sub going to the patrol zone would top its torpedo load, but specially its fuel tanks load from any excess that came out from BdU's calculation of what the returning sub needed to get back to harbour.
Kapitänleutnant Bleichrodt on U-109 was paranoic about being short of fuel, and usually instructed his chief ingenier to cheat when he had to transfer fuel to other subs. If you read "Hirchsfeld, secret diary of an U-boat" you will realize that this kind of resupply meetings between frontline boats was much common than that of subs with tankers or milk cows.
Exactly! That is the point many here keep missing; that resupply other than with milk cows happened frequently. Not full loads of fuel or torpedoes, usually just a topping off, or to give a returning boat enough to get home on. Of course, from mid-43 on, even these types of resupply became difficult to do..
And the point which other people keep missing is that it is NOT the historical relevence that is being questioned here but a mod that, for want of a better term, allows a number of gamey functions which actually reduce the realism of it simply because people see resupply as a holy grail. The game code doesn't support it being done right. I know, I was working on exactly the same type of mod when the game first came out.
SH3 Commander (not RUb) can simulate milk cows, but only in the abstract. What I could do is raise the range of the Type VII during the period when milk cows were a factor. This would allow players to take Type VIIs to the US coast and back. This adjustment would also require a few more distant patrol destinations for Type VIIs during this period.
However, if I did this, it wouldn't make a great deal of difference to the game. I would make sure that it would be realistic, so no uber-ranged Type VIIs.
Can anyone tell me what period, in their opinion, the milk cows were really effective in the Atlantic? I'm currently looking at enabling this extended range (say change from 8500km to 12000km) for April 1942 to November 1943. These months were the only ones that had full coverage by resupply boats.
I've just run into a problem:
It seems to me that milk cows basically operated in the Atlantic between April 1942 and November 1943. Attacks along the US coast basically stopped by July 1942, and the action moved back into the North Atlantic. This means that Milk Cows for the Type VIIs were only really useful for three months during Paukenschlag. After that, any extra range was pretty useless except for going down to West Africa. I don't think even a resupplied Type VII could be sure of reaching the other main area of post-Paukenschlag operations (the Caribbean) at this time. So what we're left with is a feature that will get very little play indeed in the game. I'm just not sure whether it's worth the effort of changing all the patrol grids for the Type VII boats. The player will be so unlikely to get an extended patrol assignment that it just seems like a bunch of work for very little payoff.
on topic off topic. the cows where usually subs. although ships would help too. the question is what are the odds of getting a sub into the game? i mean another sub. fill those damn sub pins up. have one docked. i mean for crying out loud. was there never ever any ai programming for subs in this game? it would just be nice to see another one besides me in the water. even if its at home coming or leaving.
... it would just be nice to see another one besides me in the water. even if its at home coming or leaving.
As I understand it, it can't be done, because if you introduce an AI sub it causes a serious bug in the game.
Salvadoreno
07-13-05, 01:56 AM
so can milk the cows work with RUB 1.42.. Im about to install it but it overuns basic.cfg file, and i dont know if this will screw up my game.
... it would just be nice to see another one besides me in the water. even if its at home coming or leaving.
As I understand it, it can't be done, because if you introduce an AI sub it causes a serious bug in the game.
Nope another modder has solved that problem.
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=39916
Anyway, I think there were very few milkcows comapred to the number of subs. Others have said this, but if it can't be done correctly it should not be done at all.
so can milk the cows work with RUB 1.42.. Im about to install it but it overuns basic.cfg file, and i dont know if this will screw up my game.
Milk Cows? What mod is this?
Salvadoreno
07-13-05, 12:14 PM
the milk cow mod that allows subs to resupply while at sea from a German merchant ship.
How does it keep the turnaround time from becoming the standard 28 days?
How does it keep the turnaround time from becoming the standard 28 days?
You can't as far as I know. it is the drawack of using the Naval base for resupply.
That's a pity. I still have doubts about how effective these resupply vessels were. Clearly the milk cow U-boats weren't all that effective, given the fact that the Germans had already gone back to concentrating on mid-Atlantic convoys by the Summer of '42 when they first came into use. German U-boats may still have been going to American shores, but if that's the case their effectiveness there appears to have been negligible.
irishred
07-13-05, 09:48 PM
You could probably use SH3 commander to turn the patrol turnaround time during these resupply operations.
You could probably use SH3 commander to turn the patrol turnaround time during these resupply operations.
Any way it's done it would be really clunky: you'd have to save in mid-patrol before refueling, exit the game, load the special refueling Basic.cfg file, load game again, refuel, save and exit, load the standard Basic.cfg file, load game again, finish patrol. There's just no way to do it smoothly.
I prefer the abstract way of doing it that I suggested earlier, but again I must say I'm still unconvinced that milk cows made that much difference. Sure, they're fun, if they can be done in a smooth way, but are they necessary? My research so far seems to be telling me 'no'.
so can milk the cows work with RUB 1.42.. Im about to install it but it overuns basic.cfg file, and i dont know if this will screw up my game.
It shouldn't screw up the game, but Basic.cfg is a very important part of RUb. If the milk cow mod is not based on an RUb Basic.cfg file you'll be getting a very different game than RUb gives you - different U-boat availability, different component upgrade times, incorrect start dates for the Type XXI, different turnaround times, etc.
You could probably use SH3 commander to turn the patrol turnaround time during these resupply operations.
Actually, one way of doing it would be to adjust all turnaround times to 1 day, and then have SH3 Commander automatically add on a certain amount of days for every 'in-port' turnaround. I think this would be possible (and it might even be possible to add in some kind of randomizer), but it would be tricky - you'd have to make sure you loaded via SH3 Commander only once between patrols - and it would virtually force the use of SH3 Commander with RUb, and I'm not sure if every RUb user is an SH3 Commander user.
irishred
07-13-05, 10:42 PM
You could probably use SH3 commander to turn the patrol turnaround time during these resupply operations.
Actually, one way of doing it would be to adjust all turnaround times to 1 day, and then have SH3 Commander automatically add on a certain amount of days for every 'in-port' turnaround. I think this would be possible (and it might even be possible to add in some kind of randomizer), but it would be tricky - you'd have to make sure you loaded via SH3 Commander only once between patrols - and it would virtually force the use of SH3 Commander with RUb, and I'm not sure if every RUb user is an SH3 Commander user.
That was the actual idea I had in mind, editing the time in port to 1 day. :D
That was the actual idea I had in mind, editing the time in port to 1 day. :D
I'll have a talk with Jaesen about this. There is a need for some kind of randomizer for turnaround anyway (since the regular game forces the player to have the exact same turnaround before each mission). It would be nice if SH3 Commander came with the option for the player to plug in a number of days that would stay in SH3 Commander's memory and have a randomizer to go say up to ten days in either direction from that.
Salvadoreno
07-14-05, 02:32 AM
arg so i guess its not compatible with rub 1.42.?
Someone here can tell me something: Am I right in thinking that docking at a naval base automatically repairs damage, quite aside from giving you more fuel and torps?
I don't see how you could make it NOT repair you...
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