OK, so where is 1.02?

[Driftwood]

I know SCS is working on it. :cool: Can anyone give us an idea of when us "non-quals" might get it? :up:

[SquidB]

Hmmm the great question....Im actually waiting for the patch till i play again....i remember the thread scoffing at a july release date.

Oh well im sure there are reasons for the delay, such as other projects etc. Would be nice to get an eta though. Even if it is september.

[Jamie]

No definite release date... :-?

We're trying to coordinate it with an updated release of a new DW Demo (MP? ;)) and it's taking a while to get the pieces together...

Thanks for sticking with us! :know:

[Kapitan]

lol cant do much else

[Driftwood]

Thanks for the update Jamie! :up:

[bradclark1]

I've shelved mine. Told two people so far not to waste their money until they fix it. September they will come up with another excuse for no patch.

Brad

[Bill Nichols]

I've shelved mine. Told two people so far not to waste their money until they fix it. September they will come up with another excuse for no patch.

Brad

Your two friends are wrong. :-? The game is great, and the few glitches it does have do not get in the way of a rewarding simulation experience. :up: :up: :up:

[Driftwood]

I second that Bill! :up:

[Fish]

I read multiply reports every day from people having great fun in multiplayer games.
Oh, and I am one of them. :rock:

[Molon Labe]

It needs some work, but it's still a great game out of the box and my life outside of my computer suffers beacause of it. :88) :doh:

[sonar732]

I've shelved mine. Told two people so far not to waste their money until they fix it. September they will come up with another excuse for no patch.

Brad

Let your friends determine for themselves by playing the demo and reading the forum.

[Syxx_Killer]

What kind of bugs is there? Maybe it's how deep this sim actually is, or how little I actually know or pay attention, but I'm not aware of any bugs. The one thing I thought was a bug was actually my own stupidity. :doh: :oops:

[JoeL_221]

Count me as one the ones playing and enjoying this game immensely. I play MP on the weekends as much as I can. I haven't found a bug serious enogh to shelve the game.

[Enigma65]

I've shelved mine. Told two people so far not to waste their money until they fix it. September they will come up with another excuse for no patch.

Brad

Shame on you. :down:

[Rip]

The sound/speed issue was the only major one for me. Now I'm loving the game. Are there a couple other little issues? Sure. Nothing major however. IMHO.

[Kapitan]

first of all the diving depth of the akula needs sorting thats a good place to start

[Ramius]

first of all the diving depth of the akula needs sorting thats a good place to start

Not exactly what you'd call a "show stopping bug" is it though :hmm: :hmm:

Plus, each place you go to get technical data on almost ANY warship/submarine/aircraft etc etc will always show different details.

Just because the place you browsed and found some data doesnt make it the correct data.
PLUS, at the end of the day the technical data of any unit in this game is all guess work anyway. Do you really think any nation would release data about its units to make a game.... don't think so :rock:

[Kapitan]

aha ramius can tell me why the diving planes on my akula retract ?

[bradclark1]

If it's just piddly stuff wrong with it why is it taking so long to bring a patch out? Jamie's reply doesn't qualify as an answer. He could just as well have said that coffee got spilt on the keyboard. I've had it off for a while and I'm not going to bother with it until the patch comes out. I'm not going to go around and say don't get it,but if I'm asked my opinion on it I'll give "my" opinion on it.

Brad

[Jamie]

If it's just piddly stuff wrong with it why is it taking so long to bring a patch out?

Well, because we're trying to stay in business... :)

We're very different from your average game developer in that way "for better or worse" (I'm pretty sure I know which side you're on ;)). We develop government training applications and simulations so that we can fund what we really enjoy which is to make Naval Simulations for you guys... it's our passion, and we take great pride in it.

As I said on the Battlefront forums, the original estimate of when the patch would come out was assuming that we'd be able to focus our attention on the patches exclusively and that ended up changing rapidly as new work came in. We are still working on the patch, but the timeline has been stretched out considerably because of these other projects.

No excuses from me, just the nature of business I suppose. :-? It was not my intention to mislead anyone or to give false hopes of specific timelines... I'll will certainly be more careful of doing so in the future.

[Driftwood]

I believe this thread now officially falls into the "Geez, Glad I asked........" category .:88) I didn't realize this thread would get this much attention. Guess I should have known better. Sorry Jamie........ :oops:

[Jamie]

Sorry Jamie.... :oops:

No big deal, you guys paid us for a product, and you deserve to know how much support that product will receive. We are not done patching DW and I wanted you all to know what it was we were working on in conjunction with the patch work.

I will always do my best to be honest with you (our customers) because where would we be without you guys? Well, we'd probably be doing 100% government work ... but where's the fun in that?!? ... Blecch! :P

[Rip]

Sorry Jamie.... :oops:

No big deal, you guys paid us for a product, and you deserve to know how much support that product will receive. We are not done patching DW and I wanted you all to know what it was we were working on in conjunction with the patch work.

I will always do my best to be honest with you (our customers) because where would we be without you guys? Well, we'd probably be doing 100% government work ... but where's the fun in that?!? ... Blecch! :P

That is why we love you guys. Just keep doing whatever you have to that results in the best simulations we can get. We have nowhere else to turn so the fact you guys don't leave out in the cold makes me thankful. Take your time and focus on what keeps you in business is my position.

[Sea Demon]

What kind of bugs is there? Maybe it's how deep this sim actually is, or how little I actually know or pay attention, but I'm not aware of any bugs. The one thing I thought was a bug was actually my own stupidity. :doh: :oops:

I can relate Syxx_Killer. I put up a thread not too long ago "demonstrating" a "bug". It was just me playing around with the database and forgetting what I did. :oops: Re-initializing the Sonalysts DB fixed it. I apologized to Sonalysts myself and vow that will never happen again.

With that said, Sonalysts have put together one of the funnest games I've played yet. I consider it money well spent. I agree with Sonar 732. Let your friends see the demo and read the forum to decide for themselves if DW is for them. As for now, there is no "show-stopper" issues in this game that I can't be patient for a patch.

Sea Demon

[Skybird]

I expected to place my order during July, depending on the feedback about that patch, but I already start to loose interest after several months of waiting now. Judging from what was said in this thread I think my money will stay with me even longer, then. I can understand Brad's attidue very well. Will it be like with SC, where I completely lost interest once the first stable running version with working save games (1.08) was available after ... one year? Would be nice, somehow, then I wouldn't be in need to buy it at all and spare me some 60 bucks :lol:

[timmyg00]

I expected to place my order during July, depending on the feedback about that patch, but I already start to loose interest after several months of waiting now. Judging from what was said in this thread I think my money will stay with me even longer, then. I can understand Brad's attidue very well. Will it be like with SC, where I completely lost interest once the first stable running version with working save games (1.08) was available after ... one year? Would be nice, somehow, then I wouldn't be in need to buy it at all and spare me some 60 bucks :lol: I think the input of "dissatisfied non-customers" should be taken with a fist-sized grain of salt :hmm:

TG

[Skybird]

... together with some experience-spice from SC ;)

[Fish]

Skybird, you cant compare DW with SC, especially when you never see it.
But you are nitpicking as long as I know, sorry to say.
90 % of the users loves the game, and from those who play in the seawolves 100 %.
If you want live (games ) to be perfect, you will be disapointed all times.

PS: And the patch will make it even better. :up:

[Sea Demon]

I expected to place my order during July, depending on the feedback about that patch, but I already start to loose interest after several months of waiting now. Judging from what was said in this thread I think my money will stay with me even longer, then. I can understand Brad's attidue very well. Will it be like with SC, where I completely lost interest once the first stable running version with working save games (1.08) was available after ... one year? Would be nice, somehow, then I wouldn't be in need to buy it at all and spare me some 60 bucks :lol:

Well, sad to see that you're not going to buy DW, Skybird. I think you're missing out on a fantastic naval simulation.

Sea Demon

[bradclark1]

If it's just piddly stuff wrong with it why is it taking so long to bring a patch out?

Well, because we're trying to stay in business... :)

We're very different from your average game developer in that way "for better or worse" (I'm pretty sure I know which side you're on ;)). We develop government training applications and simulations so that we can fund what we really enjoy which is to make Naval Simulations for you guys... it's our passion, and we take great pride in it.

As I said on the Battlefront forums, the original estimate of when the patch would come out was assuming that we'd be able to focus our attention on the patches exclusively and that ended up changing rapidly as new work came in. We are still working on the patch, but the timeline has been stretched out considerably because of these other projects.

No excuses from me, just the nature of business I suppose. :-? It was not my intention to mislead anyone or to give false hopes of specific timelines... I'll will certainly be more careful of doing so in the future.

Now that I understand. If that had of been said a while ago it would have smoothed many a ruffled feather.

Brad

[XabbaRus]

If it's just piddly stuff wrong with it why is it taking so long to bring a patch out? Jamie's reply doesn't qualify as an answer. He could just as well have said that coffee got spilt on the keyboard. I've had it off for a while and I'm not going to bother with it until the patch comes out. I'm not going to go around and say don't get it,but if I'm asked my opinion on it I'll give "my" opinion on it.

Brad

Some of it may be piddly but you have to replicate it and then figure out a solution. Also in fixing one bug you might inadvertantly create one or more new bugs. Everything has a knock on effect so that is why it takes time. Some might accuse me of SCS worship but there are also the realities of programming to contend with.

I haven't played DW for a bit not cos of bugs or whatever but I haven't had time and there aren't enough OHP scenarios out there and I hate playing my own ones as they have no suspense. Oh and I am also lazy at the moment since I now spend all day looking at a computer screen moving lines about.

From what ludger menetioned about a recalculated sound algorithm taking raytracing into account doesn't sound piddly to me.

[Skybird]

But you are nitpicking as long as I know, sorry to say.

Nööö :) I am just waiting for the product beeing finished and wonder why it takes them so long if the issues are so minor. Even doesn't post often in the DW-forum currently ;)

90 % of the users loves the game, and from those who play in the seawolves 100 %.

:lol: No wonder, why should someone join a virtual fleet if he doesn't love the game!? 90% of other users, wild guess I think, but I descrikbed in an earlier thread some weeks ago that I talked about the game with some potentially interested people, and when mentioning 1. the complexity some turned away, and when I mentioned 2. that htey still plan to bring out a patch, most of the others were gone, too. Sale numbers are not as well as was hoped, SA confessed two or threee weeks ago, and I cannot imagine that I am the only one remembering the interest-killing long wait for SC's 1.08. You may see it different, Fish, but there are not only some Skybirds out there that have learned to refuse to buy games that are still patched.

Oh dear, seems I have tripped a wire again, eh? :-j Okay, I will wait the remaining weeks and months silently, and see what is left of my personal interest once patch is out. For occasional sonar activies SC is still good enough. And the subs are the most important thing I am interested in, eventually the frigate, but the flying toys are not attracting me at all. This is just my personal taste, so don't start to make an issue of it.

[Skybird]

I expected to place my order during July, depending on the feedback about that patch, but I already start to loose interest after several months of waiting now. Judging from what was said in this thread I think my money will stay with me even longer, then. I can understand Brad's attidue very well. Will it be like with SC, where I completely lost interest once the first stable running version with working save games (1.08) was available after ... one year? Would be nice, somehow, then I wouldn't be in need to buy it at all and spare me some 60 bucks :lol:

Well, sad to see that you're not going to buy DW, Skybird. I think you're missing out on a fantastic naval simulation.

Sea Demon

The final decision is not made, SD ;) But I consider some things that were mentioned in recent threads to be not really minor, and I refuse do buy intentionally and knowingly software that is in that state. I did not always do like that, but learned to do it over the years. I am simply tired of months of patching - and paying full price for that. They still can win me as a customer, if they get their work done, and in not too long time anymore. When 1.08 was released for SC, it took one year, and that year I spend with workarounds, and frustrations. when 1.08 came, the game already was very much dead for me, due to too long time ow waiting and problems. I don't spend money on that purpose anymore ;)

[Ula Jolly]

I must say I can understand someone who'd like to spend their money elsewhere, after hearing what issues there may be with a game. Operation Flashpoint, for instance, was filled to the rim with tiny, tiny glitches here and there that I guess would scare off at least a nice ten percent of the initial buyers. OFP made a great success because it had a pre-release demo and because FPS games in general are easy to sell (its realism was only a bonus!). If DW didn't have a demo... I don't think many of us would be here. :D
Because of good sales, OFP could release manymany patches, and because of that and third-party addons keep its community thrilled. DW could IMO really need some (un)official addons, and patches, BUT... it's a sub sim! Things go slow when you're submerged... we ought to be happy with what we've got (minus the missing MP missions! :D).

Both OFP and DW should appeal greatly to their respective realism-demanding audiences (and OFP appeals to other audiences too), and have the same kind of quality to offer those who wish to see past such extremely tiny bugs as have been made official later.
The marketing of Dangerous Waters will be most efficient if done by its players, on the Internet. On different forums, for free, one post could quickly make five demo-downloads, and a buy or two, if not much more. :ping:

[Fandango]

Skybird,

what was the last game you purchased which made you satisfied right away or that within the first three/four months had all "big issues" fixed?...

[Jammer]

But I consider some things that were mentioned in recent threads to be not really minor, and I refuse do buy intentionally and knowingly software that is in that state.

That is definitely your prerogative, even though the issues you most likely refer to are IMHO being blown way out of proportion. The fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as bug-free software -- especially a simulation of this complexity and fidelity.

But, the bottom line is had everyone taken your "wait and see approach" with Sub Command, DW would have never seen the light of day. The simulation market is a dying niche and we need to support the few remaining developers and perhaps be prepared to overlook a few minor bugs if we want this genre to survive...

Heck, had I been so picky with the software I have installed on my system as you are with DW I would most likely have formatted my hard disk and binned my computer years ago.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Well said Jammer. If you like modern naval sims, buy DW. I mean...What else is there?

And buying it helps ensure there may be something in the future.

[bishop]

If it's just piddly stuff wrong with it why is it taking so long to bring a patch out?

Well, because we're trying to stay in business... :)

We're very different from your average game developer in that way "for better or worse" (I'm pretty sure I know which side you're on ;)). We develop government training applications and simulations so that we can fund what we really enjoy which is to make Naval Simulations for you guys... it's our passion, and we take great pride in it.

As I said on the Battlefront forums, the original estimate of when the patch would come out was assuming that we'd be able to focus our attention on the patches exclusively and that ended up changing rapidly as new work came in. We are still working on the patch, but the timeline has been stretched out considerably because of these other projects.

No excuses from me, just the nature of business I suppose. :-? It was not my intention to mislead anyone or to give false hopes of specific timelines... I'll will certainly be more careful of doing so in the future.

Now that I understand. If that had of been said a while ago it would have smoothed many a ruffled feather.

Brad

So does this mean that, after 'proudly' proclaiming that you "Told two people so far not to waste their money until they fix it", are you now going to go back and tell those two guys that maybe you were wrong about SA and it's okay to make an investment in the game.....?

[Skybird]

Skybird,

what was the last game you purchased which made you satisfied right away or that within the first three/four months had all "big issues" fixed?...

Richard Burns Rally, Steel Panthers MBT, GTR and to some degree SH3 (although I wouldn't have bought iut before 1.02, if I would have known :) ) As I said in my posting about SPMBT, the issues that some people reported to have with it in their home forum I was not able to recreate so far. maybe because I keep my machine clean, well-sorted and tidy :lol: I also tend to ignore all MP-related issues, since I never play MP.

[Skybird]

But I consider some things that were mentioned in recent threads to be not really minor, and I refuse do buy intentionally and knowingly software that is in that state.

That is definitely your prerogative, even though the issues you most likely refer to are IMHO being blown way out of proportion. The fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as bug-free software -- especially a simulation of this complexity and fidelity.

But, the bottom line is had everyone taken your "wait and see approach" with Sub Command, DW would have never seen the light of day. The simulation market is a dying niche and we need to support the few remaining developers and perhaps be prepared to overlook a few minor bugs if we want this genre to survive...

Heck, had I been so picky with the software I have installed on my system as you are with DW I would most likely have formatted my hard disk and binned my computer years ago.

But what would be today's situation if people would have started to be more demanding concerning the shape of a sotware at release day mayn years ago? Companies would have adopted to that, or would have died. And that would have been very much okay with me. Industry tends to adopt to customer's demands. If customer demands better quality, different business routines would have been established. Since this demand is not there, they spare that effort and see that they can get away with less er quality and still get the full price (I have not necessarily SA on mind when writing this, but the major palyers like EA or UBI).

[Skybird]

So does this mean that, after 'proudly' proclaiming that you "Told two people so far not to waste their money until they fix it", are you now going to go back and tell those two guys that maybe you were wrong about SA and it's okay to make an investment in the game.....?
I could imagine he will do that exactly - once the 1.02 is out. :lol: Because he accpeted the excuse for the delay of the patch, not the current condition of the game, as you suggest.

[bradclark1]

So does this mean that, after 'proudly' proclaiming that you "Told two people so far not to waste their money until they fix it", are you now going to go back and tell those two guys that maybe you were wrong about SA and it's okay to make an investment in the game.....?
I didn't 'proudly' anything. I was asked an opinion and gave it. Actually it changes nothing, why should it, nothings changed. Jamie's statement does however clarifies why the patch is taking so long. I'll just monitor the DW forum every couple of weeks instead of every couple of days to check on the patch.

[Boomer Ang]

There is no reason to buy it now. I suggest Sky to come back here ( as I will make ) around September to see what the patch will have accomplished and then , just then , decide what to do.

Issues that are refraining you to buy it now are sadly well known among hardcore sim-players, more or less they are the same that have been stopping me to play it since....dozen of weeks despiting the speed-noise hotfix.

Peolple around here don't seem to understand that your is a further declaration of love to DW, not an hate one. ;)

Cheers


Boomer

[timmyg00]

Peolple around here don't seem to understand that your is a further declaration of love to DW, not an hate one. ;) That's probably the most foolish thing I've ever seen in a Boomer post... and there are so many to choose from...

HOW DO YOU LOVE SOMETHING YOU DON'T HAVE?!?!?

The only nay-sayer here that appears to have a leg to stand on is Brad, because he actually owns the game; still, he's in a vocal minority. Most of the posts you see here and in other forums regarding DW are essentially positive, with enthusiasts willing to overlook most of the bugs that exist. Their willingness to overlook the bugs is, in large part, due to the responsiveness of the developer within the community. Anyone who doesn't own DW (the demo doesn't count) and passes any sort of judgement on it does not deserve an audience.

Skybird,

what was the last game you purchased which made you satisfied right away or that within the first three/four months had all "big issues" fixed?...

to some degree SH3 (although I wouldn't have bought iut before 1.02, if I would have known :) ) "To some degree"? Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You didn't wait for it to come out, and bought it anyway, and are probably finding the same amount of (if not more) bugs as you might find in DW - assuming you owned it. Which you don't, therefore no basis of comparison exists with regard to "big issues". Did you shelve SH3 until the 1.2 patch came out? Anyway, the aforementioned games, in the viewpoint of people who aren't enthusiasts of each respective genre, probably each have what those non-enthusiasts consider to be "big issues" - yet the enthusiasts are willing to live with them and enjoy the games anyway.

This leads me to make the following statement of theoretical profundity (the following is trademarked and Patent Pending TimmyG00 LLC, LTD):

In any given player's opinion, the severity of a bug is inversely proportional to the level of enthusiasm that player exhibits for the product/genre (with minor exceptions).

Example 1, Naval Sim enthusiast: "Hmmm, the framistan converters aren't properly modeled in this sim... But I can live without them until they're fixed... this game rocks!"

Example 2, General gamer: "WTF is wrong with my framistan converters? They don't work worth a SH!x!! THIS GAME SUCKS, DON'T BUY IT!"

Example 3, forum poster looking for attention: "There are so many show-stopping bugs in this game that I'm not going to buy it until I hear that these bugs are fixed! What? No, I haven't bought it.... Yes, I've bought games before that had no bugs in them.... What? You say those games have bugs? Oh, alright, they do, but I can live with them... those games rock!"

TG

[Boomer Ang]

Peolple around here don't seem to understand that your is a further declaration of love to DW, not an hate one. ;) That's probably the most foolish thing I've ever seen in a Boomer post... and there are so many to choose from...

HOW DO YOU LOVE SOMETHING YOU DON'T HAVE?!?!?



Have you ever " fallen in love " with a car before buying it ? ...and above all having bought previous models......but if you read that a feature is missing or not working you wait to buy it,because you want it good,drivable not for the common sense of driving ( TV spots... ) but for your sense of driving....

Going deeper in this metaphor Skybird mentions he owns Richard Burns Rally, well, me too. :yep:

Timmy, if you had this game you could definetely better understand what I consider ( maybe even Skybird ) a REAL SIM. Throw out of the window Colin Mc Rae rally , Championship rally and so on...if you want to play a SIM and not a movie you must buy Richard Burns rally.

If you are aiming for a real sim you can get rid of last generation graphical effects but you can't accept compromises on basic features,once for all the possibility to use the dipping sonar on player controlled helos whenever I want and wherever I want.

Boomer


P.S. : take it easy :)

[Fandango]

Guys,

let's smooth the discussion a bit...we are again falling into verbal fighting and the people who like the game will not be able to convinced those who don't want to be convinced... :dead:

The patch will be released sooner or later and for those who are waiting for it to purchase the game, we'll be waiting for you for an online match then!!!

Amen!

[Zerogreat]

This might be a little off topic, but i want to say i somewhat like games with bugs. I like to see that process of developing patches which change the things :) Im just weird :sunny:

[Skybird]

"To some degree"? Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You didn't wait for it to come out, and bought it anyway, and are probably finding the same amount of (if not more) bugs as you might find in DW - assuming you owned it. Which you don't, therefore no basis of comparison exists with regard to "big issues". Did you shelve SH3 until the 1.2 patch came out?

Yes, I did after some days. It was the enthusiastic subsim-review that made me kick my caution both with regard to possible needs for patches and SF, for originally I had can cancelled my intention, due to SF. While the review was not bad, and certainly enthusiastical in it's notes, it did not show the needed in-depth testing to find all those niggles and flaws that it surely had (and to some degree still has). Some more distance and enthusiasm must not be exclusive to each other. I clearly remember a certain someone who later in the forum recommended as a remedy to the UZO-spray bug to switch off the spray: for doing so would not affect any other graphical deatils of the game, which of course it totally wrong, CTRL-P switched on/off several other graphical details such as smoke as well.

I will write a review for Steal Beasts Pro, and I expect that thing to be a top class performer (the sim, not necessarily my text). Then you guys have your opportunity to pay back all the mean things I said about bugs and review and quality :lol: Is that a fair deal?! I am confident that SB will beat most other games with regard to bugs, stability, broken things, that's why I'm doing it.

BTW, someone that has no interest in DW probably would not pop up in this forum regularly, like I do. That I still come and do a quick patrol here is evidence enough that I still care for it. I am just not as enthusiastical about it's status as most of you are. Let's wait what 1.02 will do.

RBR was said to have issues in MP (that is unimportant for me), and the patch should have fixed some issues that were so minor that I never were aware of their presence. Same is true for GTR, I never saw that big need for patches, but I am happy that they added so much modding stuff like new tracks, for example. Minor things don't irritate me so much, but stability issues, broken aspects in basic game mechanics are things I am concerned about.

Boomer,

if you mention "simulation" and RBR in one sentence, you possibly would like GTR, too (if you do not care for SF, of course). I wouldn't buy it again because of SF (and only because of that), but the game itself is a hardcore simulation of top class, it's physics as sophisticated as RBR's physics are. Plus the full Nordring is available as free mod.

[Fish]

Skybird, the patch will not satisfy you, nor will it satisfy Boomer.
Ohh, and you can't compare a "sim" about a car running around and one about a caterpilar with a cannon, with an in depth sim as DW is. :|\

[Skybird]

Skybird, the patch will not satisfy you, nor will it satisfy Boomer.
Ohh, and you can't compare a "sim" about a car running around and one about a caterpilar with a cannon, with an in depth sim as DW is. :|\
Did not compare it. What do you know about the complexity of models beeing used in SBP? Or the driving model of RBR (which for example even simulates changing pressure inside the sparking chamber, if that is the correct word? RBR is not NFS). And please, don't evaluate the coming patch for me in my place. I am perfectly capable of doing that myself ;)

[timmyg00]

While the review was not bad, and certainly enthusiastical in it's notes, it did not show the needed in-depth testing to find all those niggles and flaws that it surely had (and to some degree still has). A Review is not a BETA-test. It surely should mention bugs if it finds them, but realistically, a reviewer only has a week or two in which to hone his article (which is a longer period of time than commercial reviewers seem to take). Therefore, the reviewer should concentrate on the major features of the game, and not those "niggles and flaws" which, unless they keep the game from being played, should get only a passing mention. No Game will be without them.

I will write a review for Steal Beasts Pro, and I expect that thing to be a top class performer (the sim, not necessarily my text). Now there's a problem. Entering into the review process with expectations other than what you've seen from the developer's list of features, which should always be looked at with a skeptical eye, is a sign of bias that would lead me to distrust the reviewer's assertions (were I initially aware of that bias).

BTW, someone that has no interest in DW probably would not pop up in this forum regularly, like I do. That I still come and do a quick patrol here is evidence enough that I still care for it. I am just not as enthusiastical about it's status as most of you are. Let's wait what 1.02 will do. You haven't even seen what 1.0 or 1.01 did, except for what you've read on the forums... you have not even seen it yourself! I'm sorry, but whatever "experience" you have is hearsay, and therefore your opinions of SCS-DW are without merit. And if you truly "care" for it, then you wouldn't be putting such a negative spin on a game that most everyone else here seems to be enjoying so much. If you "care" about it, you'd let the opinions of those of us that own the sim speak for it. As the old saying goes, "With friends like these, who needs enemas?" ;)

TG

[Sea Demon]

The one thing I find amazing is that most people here love DW and have alot of fun playing it. Yes it needs patching (like most games out there). Sonalysts have said there is something forthcoming. But still most people here enjoy DW with no major problems reported. But there are those few detractors out there overdramatizing the minor stuff into complete show-stoppers. A definite vocal minority. I ask you, Skybird, why do you choose to only listen to the few, when the majority of reports are great? Is it only the bad news you can hear?

My advice to you Skybird, is listen to everybody. And you will get the fair picture on DW. My opinion is that it's alot of fun and a very high quality sim. (Yes I own it.) If you looked at it from that angle you might actually enjoy your games rather than allow the small stuff to upset you.

Sea Demon

[Kapitan]

in many cases accuracy isnt important but to provide us with a good game accuracy is important

if accuracy wasnt important in sim's then i would avoid flying because pilots us a simulator if thats not to real then well sod that im walking

i prefer everything to be accurate i dont care how long it takes if its accurate then its good also makes the game more enjoyable

[Skybird]

I am not putting a negative spin on the game, Timmy, I am just not biased in its favor no matter what the cost is. And yes, I still can have sympathy for DW, put it that way, even if I haven'T played it myself. Getting it known myslf unfortunately depeletes me of all the money, and it is unlikely that theys goive it back to me if I see my reason for currently wanting to wait as a valid one.

I stroingly disagree on your opinion on what a revie is. What you said is not a review, but a perosnal opinion with advertising intention. A review I do read not for advertising, but to hget information both about a gameÄ'S content and features - and avbout the way both got realized, which OF COURSE necessarily should and miust ionclude a "test" of it'S technical stability and bug issues it might have, or critical design decisions concerning game mechanism. If a review does not do that, then it is not much more then just what is written on the back of the DVD package. Love for a game and a critical, objective attitude towards it's shining and it's shadowed aspects are not excluding each other.

[Boomer Ang]

Unfortunately I'm not in my teenies anymore therefore I have some experience that leads me to avoid to be abruptely taken from youthful impetus when judging persons who think differently from me, therefore considering that forums are funny and useful just because everyone can highlight his own opinion I engourage to avoid personal attacks otherwise newer members can have the impression of the guard dog that defend the garden burking,without considering the matter from a " professional " point of view and recognizing that someone like Sky or me are not the casual sub players that looks to FPS only.

We are sub players since years, several years , we can have some notes that the great majority of players can disagree but we do that not to whine or to catch attention , ( we are both lurking here since a while BTW ) neither to warn new customers but only to ask for the fix of some important features that we consider fundamental to play the game. That's my opinion and I don't care about others opinion,as I told it doesn't influence me anymore unfortunately.

Boomer

[OlegM]

Skybird how do you find time, will and energy to post such long babbling posts about a game you don't own and do not plan of owning in foreseeable future?

There are many many products I don't own, don't plan to buy, and am not interested in owning, but I can't see myself posting long posts on their respective forums.

What do you want to accomplish? You want us all to see you are dissatisfied with the game, based (mailnly) on reading Boomer's posts? OK, that much is acknowledged. What else?

O.

[Fandango]

Guys,

please, let's smooth the tones of the discussion...we are degenerating in a useless "retoric" fight... :down:

[Bellman]

Seven posts back on this thread July 7th. Skybird wrote:-

' Oh dear, seems I have tripped a wire again, eh? Okay, I will wait the remaining weeks and months silently ' :up:

Some silence ! :down:

When will it start ? ;)

[Jamie]

There's nothing I want more than for this thread to slowly fade into "Page 2" in this forum, but since it probably is not going to impact sales significantly either way (which perhaps it might have a few months ago when all of the reviews were coming out in rapid succession and the interest for the game was very high), I certainly have no problem with people voicing their opinions. So I will voice mine (not as a representative of Sonalysts but just as a fellow simulation enthusiast).

Many of you have probably already read it, but SimHQ (www.simhq.com) posted an interesting editorial called "The Future of Our Genre" (http://www.simhq.com/_air2/air_082a.html) which dealt with many of the realities of all of our favorite pasttime. Without going into tremendous detail (I'll let you all read the article if you have not already) there are times like these I just wish people would take a step back and look at where we are. Our genre is struggling... When a game that is as accessible, scalable, graphically appealling, and critically hailed (i.e. well-received by the gaming press) as SH3 fails to garner significant sales earnings (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/06/17/bargain.games/)- well, then you know that the simulation audience had shrunk drastically.

So what does that mean?

1) The developers that continue to make the games that you guys enjoy are doing so because they enjoy making them. It's a tremendous risk to produce a high-fidelity simulation in this market and in order to sustain a reasonable financial health those developers need to be prudent. This is also why most simulation developers are being found overseas where the development costs are lower and the money earned in the primary markets (North America especially) goes a lot further to support future developments (SH3, PT Boats, T-72, etc... were all developed abroad).

2) Support and expansion costs money. Similar to #1, releasing patches and add-ons to a market which is so visibly small is a dangerous business decision (just as releasing the original product was). There is some merit to the logic that a solid expansion or patch will help drive the sales of the original product, but the percentage increase is generally small unless marketed heavily (and smartly). But even then, a patch or expansion will not heavily alter the performance of the original product.

3) In our case, we MUST leverage the core technologies of DW in the gov't training space in order to sustain future developments. That is our priority because it allows us to continue to make these games which you all enjoy (and enjoy to critique ;) )I could go on and on, but it is important that we all are on the same page. In order for naval simulations to continue to exist, I think it would be wise for us all to maintain a positive attitude and to promote the games which are worthy of our attention and investment.

If you do not consider DW to be one of these games which deserves your attention or promotion, then I respectfully and regrettably accept your opinion. But I would hope that for the sake of the community who DOES enjoy this genre and wants to see it continue to grow and innovate, that you would choose to still remain positive and continue to promote the genre (not necessarily DW) so that it will continue to exist 2, 5, even 10 years from now.

Sonalysts is going to support DW (whether it's a financially wise decision or not) because we WANT to. We take pride in our work and we want to see it succeed. And we also want our existing customer base (which is our best source of self-promotion) to be happy with their purchase and to continue to be hopeful for the future. :cool:

EDIT: Lots of typoz and such

[Takeda Shingen]

Hear, hear, Jamie! You just talked me into buying a second copy. :D

Edit: Despite the fact that I am now a very grumpy-looking lieutenant.

[Wim Libaers]

I can understand Skybird's opinion, because it's quite similar to mine. After a lot of time as a PC gamer, and the accompanying irritation when things don't work right, my tolerance level for faulty products is quite low. I want things to work well.

What I do not understand, however, are the specific choices made by Skybird. He preferred to get SH3 and not DW. I did the opposite: get DW, not SH3.

Now, I think it is safe to say both have bugs but in my opinion, analyzing the risks, DW should be preferred. After all, DW is relatively well-behaved software in the sense that any bugs in it are not likely to cause trouble outside of DW. The worst thing that can happen is that you do not like the game. Occupational hazard for a gamer I guess. (and, by the way, I do like DW, I'd like the bugs to be fixed but even with the bugs it's definitely playable)

With SH3, you get that plus the bug (some say feature, as it was intentional) called StarForce. This can not only prevent the game itself from working right, but can also mess up other parts of your system. And if I recall correctly, that's exactly what happened to Skybird, twice. (apologies if I'm confusing you with someone else Skybird)

Looking at it that way, getting SH3 but not DW seems rather strange, unless one dislikes modern subs, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Skybird]

Guys, I don't know, i really don'T know why you are so upset about me. even if Oleg believes he knows my intentions and motivations - I know them better for sure. You did not see me show up often in this DW forum in the last months, and when I did, it was about questions of the status of the game, and patches, and then I said I do not plan anymore to buy a software, Dw or whatever, if I think it is in need of patches. MORE I DID NOT DO. But then, here in this thread, I get adressed again and again - simply because I am not of the opinion of the majority here. A majority that probably is present in this forum because someone who has no interest on DW simply has not much reason to be here. That i still read here and wait for 1.02 simply prooves my still existing interest in DW. why these hurt sentiments just because I don't embrace your loved one as soft and tender as you do?

However, I consider myself not on a crusade for rescuing simulations, or single developers I have no personal contact to, I know who Jamie is, but have no personal relation to him whatever. I am a PAYING CUSTOMER in the first, seeing a sim with, I think, tremendous potential and high complexity, that still has some small issues, others say not so small issues left to be solved, and when these got adressed, even not all but most, then I plan to buy it. Like I plan to buy a book not before all it's pages are included in the final edition. what is so upsetting about this?
This is no fault of some people voicing there doiubts in the forum and guidng me onto the wrong track, as some of you suggested. Doubt is good. without doubt there cannot be test. Without testing there cannot be demand for something better. without that demand no better quality can appear. Popinting out both light AND shadow is essential, i think, and i insist on that.

Adressing some questions now that were raised in recent replies here. I already said why I bought SH3 instead of DW. The review dampened my caution and original plan NOT TO BUY SH3, with reagrd to SF, from which I suffer some moderate damage, but nothing that really questions the functionality of my system, thank digital God, and as I said - knowing then what I knew now I wouldn't have bought it before 1.02. Is this understood now? The impressions that made me change my mind were misleading, somewhat.

I bought GTR in last autumn, because back then I was unaware of the problems that SF could raise, I never heared of it before GTR. and it it raised these problems both on my old system back then, and now on my new system again, so I stzarted to read and learn about it, labelling it know as clear and undenaible malware. For me it is a massive slowdown of reaction times of both DVD and CD drives after a new disc got inserted, this could lead to up a minute's wait in the main but usually is slighty less, it is nerving, but not really damaging. It is gone without Sf present on my system(s). the official deinstallation tool does not deinstall SF from both my system. So I never pay money for SF -infested stuff again, period.

I red and respect Jamie's reply, and I understand his attitude perfectly. With me in his place, I maybe would see it the same to some degree. Howevber, I am interested in naval sims - amongst others only, they are not my only interest in computer simming, I am no exclusive navy die-hard fan, so my attitude towards SA is that of a customer, not that of an overenthusiastic fan wanting to save the genre from the heaven falling down on it. When I compared to the long wait for 1.08 for SC, i did not intend to damage SA or DW, my anger of that time is gone, but I drew consequences from it, just thi., But I wanted to illustrate why I still remain in a waiting position towards DW. And read this now, guys: remainining in a position of waiting is not the same like withdrawing from that position and leave it behind.

I already said that I think the quality standards of sims and games at release dates would be better today (not especially Dw on mind, which still seem to be above average in that regard) if in the past years customers wouldn't have always rushed for the latest stuff in the first weeks, spending their money on buggy or even unfinished stuff or bad support by companies, and with their premature buying sending the message that they support companies to go on with that policy of rushing games out. I think that argument to be understandable. I now and finally live and act by it. No reason for you to question and attack me on that again and again. you are free to spend your money on what you want. If what you get is what you wanted, fine for you. Why that debate??? I found myself dissapointed or frustrated too often in recent years. I do not do like that anymore. Fine for me, period.

It all comes down to this. I will read the readme for 1.02 and see if those things I have on my mind and that were debated in this forum and that I don't consider to be that minor like you do, got adressed and solved. It is not a long list, btw. I will observe the feedback about the patch, and hope it will be reasonable, not simply enthusiastically painting the world in pink. I expect (yes I do!) that the result of this will be satisfying, then I place my order, SA gets the money for a product that then I consider to be acceptable and "finished", "complete", and we both will be happy. I do the same when buying a new bike, a book, a music CD, whatever, i buy it not befdoe the item is okay and complete. It's a very good way to do private business.;) If you do that with all game softweare in coming years, quality level will raise, because companies will see they cannot survive if remaining the to policy of premature releases. Not DW on my mind, but lesser bugs in new games is possible!

and Jamie, in one thing you maybe are wrong. simply promoting something is not enough, too many people out there I know in private or via internet that don'T give a damn for printed or internet reviews or articles anymore, because in the past such reviews had been too blind and too forgiviong concenring weak sides of a product. Let the world know you have a sim, and what features it has, but beyond that simple effort the best that can happen to your current or future product is that it gets mercylessly tested to the bone, and comes away with only minor negative things, but passes the deciding aspects with flying colours - if you did a good job. THIS IS what convinces potentially interested people more than any hyped enthusiasm about something. People usually are sick and tired of simple getting adverts and promotions stacking up in their email and real-mail boxes, that cannot be the deciding thing. Like Timmy said himself, he does not trust someone writing a review when that someone is overly enthusiastic and forgiving towards the sim he is reviewing, forgetting his obligation to really TEST it for weaknesses: in that phase you need to want to find something negative, else it is no testing, but a bad joke. and Jamie, of course you can hope that people buy a sim even when you say yourself you prepare a patch, indicating by that you are working on things that, in the widest meaning possible, needs to be reworked. But you have no moral argument to demand people to buy it as long as the simple fact that a patch is in the works clearly indicates that even the developer himself does not consider his prouct to be finished. And you did not demand that, I know, I adress this message to several others who are reading here. I do not violate any moral ground or show no lacking respect or interest when waiting until "patch complete" before I buy something.

Actually, you all and me are maybe not as far apart than many of you seem to think, concerning our interest for DW. If I board the boat in let's say autumn, if i get the aboard when it is done, then it will be early enough and a perfect time to join, from perspective of customer's valid and legal interests.

[Pigfish]

Seven posts back on this thread July 7th. Skybird wrote:-

' Oh dear, seems I have tripped a wire again, eh? Okay, I will wait the remaining weeks and months silently ' :up:

Some silence ! :down:

When will it start ? ;)

BUMP

[Boomer Ang]

I am wandering if SA would have released the noise-speed hotfix if people around this forum didn't complained about how " strange " is a submarine game simulation where subs' noise is not related somehow to their own speed... :huh:

I appreciated a lot the trmenedous efforts made by Amizaur in testing how arcade DW was before the hotfix but he never told that, he posted tons of data , posted new threads that, considering the sales period, led SA to release an hot fix.

I am doing the same now still convinced that a sub running flank can't be quite as a stopped Kilo like it was before the hotfix,related to other issues, f.i. what the final 102 patch can really do in terms of satisfying my sim needings checklist.

Yes, it's not easy to develop such a game but you have to do it having in mind that you will have to deal with sim players,you do not have the same target of who produces Quake or Pinball Waterfall Edition.

Well, customers that will buy a simulation will pretend for sure more,much more than Pinball customers,this must be taken into serious consideration when such a game is beeing developed considering that just this kind of customers are the ones who already financed the game and would care to have it patched,possibly not too many months after the indicated date that if I recall right, Jamie some times ago, stated before July.

Boomer

[XabbaRus]

I am wandering if SA would have released the noise-speed hotfix if people around this forum didn't complained about how " strange " is a submarine game simulation where subs' noise is not related somehow to their own speed... :huh:

I appreciated a lot the trmenedous efforts made by Amizaur in testing how arcade DW was before the hotfix but he never told that, he posted tons of data , posted new threads that, considering the sales period, led SA to release an hot fix.

I am doing the same now still convinced that a sub running flank can't be quite as a stopped Kilo like it was before the hotfix,related to other issues, f.i. what the final 102 patch can really do in terms of satisfying my sim needings checklist.

Yes, it's not easy to develop such a game but you have to do it having in mind that you will have to deal with sim players,you do not have the same target of who produces Quake or Pinball Waterfall Edition.

Well, customers that will buy a simulation will pretend for sure more,much more than Pinball customers,this must be taken into serious consideration when such a game is beeing developed considering that just this kind of customers are the ones who already financed the game and would care to have it patched,possibly not too many months after the indicated date that if I recall right, Jamie some times ago, stated before July.

Boomer

Boomer you aren't doing anything except being annoying and not contributing anything. I can see Skybirds point of view and he is logical in his posts not rambling and incoherent which I find yours many a time.

As for the hotfix it was a simple fix...possibly a missed digit.

Hm lets see, 1.02 is a bigger patch and if you didn't read Jamie's post they are kind of busy...you know they do other stuff for some would say more important and better paying customers.

I am fed up with the tone in your posts that suggest SCS should drop everything for DW and more importantly you to keep you happy and playing the game again. Christ I don't know about you but I have more important things to do than worry about a post. It's called work and buying a house...hence I haven't pposted much on the forum.

But seeing you here is just bugging me.

[Qppralke]

Sign up for the real navy , if you want the real multiplayer/multistation experience...no patches needed .

...and you get paid for it :yep:

[goldorak]

Sign up for the real navy , if you want the real multiplayer/multistation experience...no patches needed .

...and you get paid for it :yep:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Well said .

As for no patches needed never say never.
Didn't the Royal Navy wanted to introduce Windows controlled software inside nuclear submarines ?
With Windows you are never a patch away :rotfl:

[Qppralke]

- Sir , the main balast tank does not want to close.
- Hmmmm, let's try to restart the reactor....

[goldorak]

- Sir , the main balast tank does not want to close.
- Hmmmm, let's try to restart the reactor....


Oops fatal error....please reboot the submarine :rotfl:

[timmyg00]

:rotfl: @ Xabba :rotfl:

TG

[sonar732]

- Sir , the main balast tank does not want to close.
- Hmmmm, let's try to restart the reactor....

No, no...it would be...sir, we need to defrag the main ballast tank and then complete a clean install of the reactor. :rock: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Boomer Ang]

At least someone takes the time to have fun laughin.... :D

Anyway for those who speak very well english but ignore latin this is the meaning of the the word FORUM :

forum
noun forums, fora
forum - A place, programme or publication where opinions can be expressed and openly discussed.

Only to few elder members ( my old best friends ) and to few new rookies , please do not bark , this is not your private club.


Boomer

[Syxx_Killer]

- Sir , the main balast tank does not want to close.
- Hmmmm, let's try to restart the reactor....

Oops fatal error....please reboot the submarine ROTFL

No, no...it would be...sir, we need to defrag the main ballast tank and then complete a clean install of the reactor.

ROFL!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

"Conn, Sonar. Torpedo in the water! Bearing... *What the heck?* Conn, Sonar. Got blue screen of death. Need to do a hard reboot."

[moose1am]

Where can we learn about any new or old patches without having to scan though this forum.

[goldorak]

Where can we learn about any new or old patches without having to scan though this forum.

You can subscribe to the SCS mailing list.

[Jamie]

You can subscribe to the SCS mailing list.

If you'd like to Download any of the patches or subscribe/unsubscribe from the SCS Mailing List, you can do so here:

S.C.S. Game Downloads and Newsletter (http://www.sonalystscombatsims.com/downloads/download_games.html)