The Fatigue Issue...possible adjustments

[Silverfox18]

Need to bump this sucker... :yep:

[Beery]

Remember, folks, that fatigue is not meant to disable your crew. I think people should try to get used to running the boat with a fatigued crew rather than trying to avoid or delay fatigue. Basically, fatigue is not the bugbear that many players think it is. The qualifications system is the correct tool to use to combat fatigue - but this tool doesn't get rid of fatigue. What it does is allow the crew to work well while fatigued.

Fatigue is not really what players should be looking at. What's important is compartment efficiency, and you can achieve 100% compartment efficiency even with a fully fatigued crew.

[Shadow9216]

It would have been nice to see things like crews loading torpedoes being fatigued faster than crews sitting on their butts waiting to load torpedoes. We slept at battle stations all the time between action.

Right on!
Not too sure about subs, as I was a "rider" and worked a different watch shift, but I know on ships the crew worked port and starboard- 12 on/12 off. Unless the ship went to GQ, and then you stayed at your post until secured...it was customary to let some sailors "rack out" whenever possible, so that some stamina could be maintained. Same thing when I was flying- we'd get 14-18 hour missions at times (fuel dependent), but there was a bunk in the galley for the spare pilot to sleep, while the rest of us would take it in turns to snooze at our position- we maybe weren't at maximum efficiency, but neither were we "fatigued" to the point where performance suffered.

There's a difference between "Watchstanding" and actually doing one's assigned duties- watchstanding can be as simple as monitoring equipment, or keeping the spaces manned "just in case", as opposed to performing maintenance, operating systems, reporting contacts, etc.

[Beery]

It would have been nice to see things like crews loading torpedoes being fatigued faster than crews sitting on their butts waiting to load torpedoes. We slept at battle stations all the time between action.

This is already modelled by the sim. The forward rest compartment is actually the torpedo room. If you leave crew in the torpedo room they are at action stations. If you move them to the forward rest compartment they are resting beside the torpedoes.

[WhoCares]

Can someone explain me (or point me to the explanation) of the various fatigue factors (RegularFactorXX, SpecificFactorXX,...)?

Started to look into this stuff as well and thought I might make the repair comp. (comp11???) a kind of rest compartment, not for recreation but with little or no fatigue if no repairs are pending. Is this possible with those variables?

[Pablo]

Can someone explain me (or point me to the explanation) of the various fatigue factors (RegularFactorXX, SpecificFactorXX,...)?
As far as I knowRegularFactorn0 covers being on the surface but not in combat,
RegularFactorn1 covers being submerged but not in combat.
SpecificFactorn0 covers being on the surface in combat
SpecificFactorn1 covers being submerged in combat
Badweathern covers being on the surface in bad weatherwhere n is the submarine compartment ID number ranging from 0 to 11.

Pablo

[WhoCares]

Thx Paplo!

Are there some implicite mechanisms that increase fatigue beyond those factors, e.g. while reloading torps or while repairing when damaged?

[Skweetis]

Im trying to figure this outmyself as well, but I am kind of confused...

IF:

RegularFactorn0 covers being on the surface but not in combat,
RegularFactorn1 covers being submerged but not in combat.
SpecificFactorn0 covers being on the surface in combat
SpecificFactorn1 covers being submerged in combat
Badweathern covers being on the surface in bad weather

Then Comp6 and 7 only apply those factors while in combat? They only have SpecificFactor, nothing else... I guess what Im asking is perhaps there is more to SpecificFactor then just combat?

What about time compression? is the fatigue rate ALWAYS calculated in real time at the same rate, or does it adjust to take into account the Time Compression?

Does anybody have any idea of how the fatiguew system handles timecomression?

It seems my crew doesnt tire/recover anywhere as quickly at 1024x speed than it does at 1x speed.

If anyone knows of any good resources to help decipher how the crew system works.

Thanks for any input,
James

[Sawdust]

It seems my crew doesnt tire/recover anywhere as quickly at 1024x speed than it does at 1x speed.
In regular SHIII, the fatigue levels of the crew are frozen when at 64x or higher Time Compression (i.e., no getting tired and no getting rested). AFAIK, at 32x down to 1x, the fatigue levels change with the game time (32 times faster tiring and recovery at 32x than at 1x).

[Skweetis]

Thanks! that makes sense!

[oscar19681]

No luck , i copy,d ans pasted this FATIGUE_COEF]
;comp 0
RegularFactor00=0.0025
SpecificFactor00=0 <-- that's why the watch fatigued slower....need to adjust to 0.005
BadWeather0=0.01
;comp1
RegularFactor10=0.0025
RegularFactor11=0.0025
SpecificFactor10=0.005
SpecificFactor11=0.005
BadWeather1=0.01
;comp2
RegularFactor20=0.0025
RegularFactor21=0.0025
SpecificFactor20=0.005
SpecificFactor21=0.005
BadWeather2=0.01
;comp3
RegularFactor30=0.0025
RegularFactor31=0.0025
SpecificFactor30=0.005
SpecificFactor31=0.005
BadWeather3=0.01
;comp4
RegularFactor40=0.0025
RegularFactor41=0.0025
SpecificFactor40=0.005
SpecificFactor41=0.005
BadWeather4=0.01
;comp5
RegularFactor50=0.0025
RegularFactor51=0.0025
SpecificFactor50=0.005
SpecificFactor51=0.005
BadWeather5=0.01
;comp6
SpecificFactor60=-0
SpecificFactor61=-0
;comp7
SpecificFactor70=-0
SpecificFactor71=-0
;comp8
RegularFactor80=0.0025
RegularFactor81=0.0025
SpecificFactor80=0.005
SpecificFactor81=0.005
BadWeather8=0.01
;comp9
RegularFactor90=0.0025
SpecificFactor90=0.005
BadWeather9=0.01
;comp10
RegularFactor100=0.025
SpecificFactor100=0.005
BadWeather10=0.01
;comp 11
RegularFactor110=0.0025
RegularFactor111=0.0025
SpecificFactor110=0.005
SpecificFactor111=0.005
BadWeather11=0.01

Without the notes offcourse! But now my crew has jumped from amphetamies to cristal meth , They dont fatigued at all now . I hate this , i love managing my crew But now its all ****ed up . i did not do this .SpecificFactor00=0 <-- that's why the watch fatigued slower....need to adjust to 0.005 . Is this why my crew dont fatigue anymore? Pleas someon help me out! Im out of options here.
_________________
we live we die but death does not ends it.

[Beery]

Why not try the RUb fatigue? I think it works really well. But then I guess I am biased, hehe.

[Acme1970]

Ok, an update....just ran Mission #6 with these settings. Faced good, bad, really bad weather, and engaged in combat 3 times.

It seems with the values set this way, only the tower and the engine (both diesel and electric) seem to endure fatigue. All other compartments failed to produce it and the 2 rest areas did in fact rejuvinate those that came off the engine crew and the tower.

So it seems that with a value set to 0, the compartment needs to actually be doing something in order for fatigue to set in.

In answer to the -0 question....the values previously had - as well - it seems those are the rest areas so a negative increases end? Not sure.

I need to go back and tweak the other compartments a bit in order for fatigue to set in.

Compartents are diffrent by ship it seems as well. For the VIIB, C boats, the layout seems to be the following:

comp0 = Tower
comp1 = Sonar/Radio
comp2 = command room
comp3 = diesel
comp4 = elect
comp5 = bow torp
comp6 = bow rest
comp7 = stern rest
comp8 = stern torp
comp9 = deck cast
comp10 = flak

More tomorrow...it's late and I am tired ;)

What bothers me is the values are already at 0.01 in some cases. Not sure if 0.005 will work.

Hunt well all


Anyone know if the compartment numbers are the same for the Type IX series

[Pablo]

Ok, an update....just ran Mission #6 with these settings. Faced good, bad, really bad weather, and engaged in combat 3 times.

It seems with the values set this way, only the tower and the engine (both diesel and electric) seem to endure fatigue. All other compartments failed to produce it and the 2 rest areas did in fact rejuvinate those that came off the engine crew and the tower.

So it seems that with a value set to 0, the compartment needs to actually be doing something in order for fatigue to set in.

In answer to the -0 question....the values previously had - as well - it seems those are the rest areas so a negative increases end? Not sure.

I need to go back and tweak the other compartments a bit in order for fatigue to set in.

Compartents are diffrent by ship it seems as well. For the VIIB, C boats, the layout seems to be the following:

comp0 = Tower
comp1 = Sonar/Radio
comp2 = command room
comp3 = diesel
comp4 = elect
comp5 = bow torp
comp6 = bow rest
comp7 = stern rest
comp8 = stern torp
comp9 = deck cast
comp10 = flak

More tomorrow...it's late and I am tired ;)

What bothers me is the values are already at 0.01 in some cases. Not sure if 0.005 will work.

Hunt well all


Anyone know if the compartment numbers are the same for the Type IX series

AFAIK these compartments are the same for all submarines, BUT not all submarines have all compartments (e.g., Type II and Type XXI don't have a deck gun compartment).

Pablo

[Acme1970]

I'm using RuB 1.42 & for the most part i like the fatigue system But I'm trying to tweak this myself, I'm looking for specific factors regarding fatigue

1-Crew members in the Bow Torpedo area should not lose fatigue while NOT in combat, The Bow Torpedo gang slept in there so there were bunks (although very crowded & uncomfortable)

2-Bad weather should affect the whole boat with emphasis on the Bow Torpedo, Stern Torpedo & Watch Tower, Crews in these areas should get hit with high fatigue in Bad Weather (Forcing you to ride out the storm submerged)

3-Have the Bow & Stern rest areas once again restore lost fatigue, The one thing i don't like about the RuB 1.42 fatigue system is that the rest areas don't restore fatigue, I would like to have the rest areas restore fatigue at a slightly faster rate than the original game

[Pablo]

Thx Paplo!

Are there some implicite mechanisms that increase fatigue beyond those factors, e.g. while reloading torps or while repairing when damaged?
None that I know of; however, there is no official word from the developers, so there could be something in the code that sets a "SpecificCondition" flag for the torpedo rooms if torpedoes are being reloaded at the moment.

Pablo

I dont like crew shifting and putting sailors to bed. I'd like to have my crew get fatigued not in several hours but weeks (!) - what I mean is that fatigue should limit the duration of a patrol i.e. everyone would be heavily fatiugued after 6 or more weeks at sea (depending on experience levels) and NOT after crossing the North Sea as is the case with current Beery's basic.cfg.

That means that the crews capabilities should deteriorate very slowly but constantly by some constant factor for each day spent on patrol. The "slow" part is easy - we already have the Beery's "1x" Basic.cfg. But for the "constant" is a problem since time compression higher that x32 disables fatigue.

Is it possible to have the fatigue system working properly with time compression higher than x32? Is any of the parameters in main.cfg responsible for that? Or where else should I look?

Allright I think I've got it - 3DRender in Main.cfg. I've increased the value from 32 to 64 and fatigue works up to... x256 TC (a bit weird why 256 and not 64). 3D views are also avaible up to x256. Everything seems to work fine, tomorrow I'm gonna do some more testing - my goal is to be able to use the Beery x1 fatigue model (slightly tuned maybe) at x1024 TC so that I don't have to change watches every few hours but my crew will eventually get very tired after a long patrol (a more experienced crew will be able to stay effiecent for a longer time at sea).

[Beery]

I'm using RuB 1.42 & for the most part i like the fatigue system But I'm trying to tweak this myself, I'm looking for specific factors regarding fatigue

1-Crew members in the Bow Torpedo area should not lose fatigue while NOT in combat, The Bow Torpedo gang slept in there so there were bunks (although very crowded & uncomfortable)

The bow rest quarters are in the torpedo room. They just split it into two visually, but they're the same space. If you want crew to be rested, they need to be in bunks, not messing with the torpedoes. Get them into the rest area. If you leave them in the torpedo room they are under orders to perform maintenance duties, which tire them.

2-Bad weather should affect the whole boat with emphasis on the Bow Torpedo, Stern Torpedo & Watch Tower, Crews in these areas should get hit with high fatigue in Bad Weather (Forcing you to ride out the storm submerged)

That is basically how it's modelled. The two torpedo rooms have a higher bad weather effect.

3-Have the Bow & Stern rest areas once again restore lost fatigue, The one thing i don't like about the RuB 1.42 fatigue system is that the rest areas don't restore fatigue, I would like to have the rest areas restore fatigue at a slightly faster rate than the original game

If you restore fatigue you automatically break the qualifications system. The two are tied together. Many people coming from the old system to RUb keep trying to control fatigue while in the simulation - you can't do that in RUb - you have to do it while in port by assigning qualifications strategically. If you're using RUb without using the qualifications system to overcome fatigue, it's no wonder you're wanting to return to the old system. :)

[Beery]

...everyone would be heavily fatiugued after 6 or more weeks at sea (depending on experience levels) and NOT after crossing the North Sea as is the case with current Beery's basic.cfg.

That only happens on the first patrol or so. If you're getting highly fatigued crew that become virtually useless after crossing the North Sea on every patrol, you're doing something very wrong indeed.

Beery, sometimes I just like to sail with low or no TC at all - that's when my crew gets seriously fatigued.... but nevermind.

I've done it! I can run x1024 TC with working fatigue. The file responsible for that is the Main.cfg but the one in My Documents\SH3\... and NOT the one in game folder (that's why I've had the 64/256 question in my previous post - I've got different values in both files and the game recognized the one from My Docs). Just set 3drender to 1024 and use the 1x basic.cfg (or choose RUB MOD 1x TC fatigue model from SH3 Commander).

I'll need some more testing to tell if the RUB MOD 1x TC fatigue model needs any tweaking... Besides I'm not sure how fast actually should the crew get fatigued (how many weeks at sea?) - help would be appreciated.

But I think this is the right way of approaching fatigue - and not the artificial default model (TC<64=Fatigue ON & TC>64=Fatigue OFF).

:|\

[Totenkopf]

I also use a similar setup. Altho the crew will last about 8-10 hours they still only need an hour or so rest to be full again. I believe it has to do with the -0.01 setting in the quarters. I am going to tweak it and see where it goes.

I tend to run high TC on long trips in friendly water, but with this setup I still have to go 1x to rotate my crew. It gives me the feeling of der Herr Kaleu and breaks up the manotony.

It seems to me comp11 = Repair stations, so I put extra crew there instead of the bow torp room as there is less fatigue accumulated.

[AlanSmithee]

I'll need some more testing to tell if the RUB MOD 1x TC fatigue model needs any tweaking... Besides I'm not sure how fast actually should the crew get fatigued (how many weeks at sea?) - help would be appreciated.

But I think this is the right way of approaching fatigue - and not the artificial default model (TC<64=Fatigue ON & TC>64=Fatigue OFF).

:|\

I agree, I like this as a way to model fatigue. This way you would cover both combat fatigue and the daily discomforts of being at sea in a uboat.

Do you think we would need separate fatigue models for different types of boats? In other words, is a Type IX more comfortable day-to-day than a Type IV or II?

I think it's doesn't pose a problem - we'd just need 3 basic.cfg files each with properly tweaked FATIGUE_COEF section to represent different types of U-boots (II, VII and IX). They could be switched ether manually or via the SH3 Commander interface. We don't change boats too often so that wouldn't be a nuisance to the player.

EDIT
I've started a new topic (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=43856).