Air Radar or not

[Hebe Vollmaus]

New thread as this may not really has something to do with Tonci87's forthcomming.

The aircraft "AI" is not good. Even when set to Elite, they have issues with recovering from a dive. You get below Veteran, and they'll often crash after a bomb drop. The decision as to whether or not to drop a bomb depends upon the plane's approach angle to the sub's angle, and also whether they "saw" your boat, or if you might have been detected by radar. If detected by radar, but you dive in time, you will often see a single pass without a bomb drop, almost like they dropped a marker in the water (wouldn't that be nice to see??), and then they'll come back for a 2nd pass and drop, usually missing you. If they see your boat, you might get a strafing run first, then a bomb drop. It depends upon how the plane is loaded out, and if they have weapons available...

Now I'm confused. Via the readme in his scripted bombers mod, Stiebler said this about radar.

"Aircraft don t really use radar:
In the course of testing, I found something very interesting. The land-based bombers are fitted with radar from 1943 or earlier, which can be detected by the U-boat s radar receiver. They close very fast to the U-boat in a direct line. The scripted bombers also have the same radar, which can also be detected by the U-boat, but the aircraft fly along their pre-plotted path until they see the U-boat visually - not easy in darkness. I believe that actually no radar-fitted bomber uses its radar to locate the U-boat - the radar serves only to alert the U-boat in SH3. The scripted bomber flies unconcernedly on until it sees the U-boat visually - then it will attack. The land-based bomber however is generated just a short distance away from the U-boat, and is given the correct angle by the code to fly towards the U-boat. Only later does the aircraft see the U-boat lying across its path.
"


Hopefully i can confuse you somewhat more.
Create a mod for any AI_Sensors.dat and reduce any AI_Visual (AI_Visual_Air and such) MaxRange to 800m and activate it.
You can see for yourself if Air-Radar is detecting you and you are attacked by now "blind" visual Air or not.
How far away Air can be "see" in good conditions are visualized by the circle around the Aircraft on the Nav-map.

Greetings.
--
579 mods found, 100 activated

[Davie Jones]

New thread as this may not really has something to do with Tonci87's forthcomming.






Hopefully i can confuse you somewhat more.
Create a mod for any AI_Sensors.dat and reduce any AI_Visual (AI_Visual_Air and such) MaxRange to 800m and activate it.
You can see for yourself if Air-Radar is detecting you and you are attacked by now "blind" visual Air or not.
How far away Air can be "see" in good conditions are visualized by the circle around the Aircraft on the Nav-map.

Greetings.
--
579 mods found, 100 activated


:hmmm: Judging by the actions I've seen of the a/c, they are most definitely not using their radar. I.e., they fly by and never even turn my way on a regular basis when a radar should be picking me up, completely oblivious to my boat. Only when they have visual on my boat do they seem to attack.
Such actions are how I dig up the above info. as I was curious what was going on.

[Hooston]

That's the joy of SH3, your situational awareness is so poor you do not realise how many bugs and shortcuts there are in the game!
It seems to me the behaviour with the randomly generated aircraft flying straight at you and the scripted aircraft flying past is quite a clever work around. Early radars were not very good and would often fail to detect targets. In my youth I spent a happy afternoon dropping (simulated) nuclear bombs on Southport Pier using a 1970's vintage radar. I could only find the 3/4 mile long wrought iron pier because somebody told me where to look.

[Davie Jones]

That's the joy of SH3, your situational awareness is so poor you do not realise how many bugs and shortcuts there are in the game!
It seems to me the behaviour with the randomly generated aircraft flying straight at you and the scripted aircraft flying past is quite a clever work around. Early radars were not very good and would often fail to detect targets. In my youth I spent a happy afternoon dropping (simulated) nuclear bombs on Southport Pier using a 1970's vintage radar. I could only find the 3/4 mile long wrought iron pier because somebody told me where to look.

That's all well and good, but the radars became very deadly, very quickly, something which doesn't seem simulated well if at all in SH3.

[Hebe Vollmaus]

:hmmm: Judging by the actions I've seen of the a/c, they are most definitely not using their radar. I.e., they fly by and never even turn my way on a regular basis when a radar should be picking me up, completely oblivious to my boat. Only when they have visual on my boat do they seem to attack.
Such actions are how I dig up the above info. as I was curious what was going on.
What is a/c? :hmmm:

You are not allone with your assumtions. There are users here with contrary observations then i have.
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2714920#post2714920

One problem here may be that everyone is talking about his/her own install.
Now lets see if this can be somewhat reduced. -- By only using a vanilla unmodified SH3 v14 installation.
Also for you All interested readers i have a new lesson below.

o make a copy of your "MyDocuments/SH3"
o delete "MyDocuments/SH3"
o install or use a vanilla SH3 v14
o create a Mod for JSGME talked about here https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2954921&postcount=1
and activate it
o create another Mod in
SH3:\MODS\Mission_TEST_SH3_Air-Radar_9c44\data\SingleMissions\English\T-Air-Radar
and/or
SH3:\MODS\Mission_TEST_SH3_Air-Radar_9c44\data\SingleMissions\German\T-Air-Radar
with Name "T-Air-Radar.mis" and contents:



[Mission]
Title=AirRadarTest
MissionType=0
MissionDataType=0
Year=1944
Month=10
Day=1
Hour=12
Minute=0
Fog=0
FogRand=0
Clouds=1
CloudsRand=1
Precip=0
PrecipRand=0
WindHeading=0
WindSpeed=5.000000
WindRand=1
WeatherRndInterval=48
SeaType=0
Briefing=9c, Test Air-AI-Radar...|Two Swordfish, two Catalina, one Tanker|For 10min do nothing.

[Group 1]
GroupName=Luft
CommandUnitName=BR TB Swordfish#1
Category=1
RandStartRadius=0.000000
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
EvolveFromEntryDate=false

[Group 1.Unit 1]
Name=BR TB Swordfish#1
Class=TBSSwordfish
Type=303
Origin=British
Side=1
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
DockedShip=false
Loadout=2x100Kg Bombs
GameEntryDate=19400501
GameEntryTime=1203
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=1754070.000000
Lat=6548900.000000
Height=300.000000
Heading=232.281998
Speed=90.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=-1
ReportPosProbability=100
RandStartRadius=0.000000
NextWP=0

[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 1]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1749400.000000
Lat=6545540.000000
Height=300.000000

[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 2]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1748350.000000
Lat=6544980.000000
Height=300.000000

[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 3]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1746920.000000
Lat=6545040.000000
Height=300.000000

[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 4]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1746200.000000
Lat=6545950.000000
Height=300.000000

[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 5]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1746410.000000
Lat=6546990.000000
Height=300.000000

[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 6]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1747370.000000
Lat=6547450.000000
Height=300.000000

[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 7]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1748640.000000
Lat=6547480.000000
Height=300.000000

[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 8]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=0
LoopProbability=100
Long=1749460.000000
Lat=6546600.000000
Height=300.000000

[Group 1.Unit 2]
Name=BR TB Swordfish#2
Class=TBSSwordfish
Type=303
Origin=British
Side=1
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
DockedShip=false
GameEntryDate=19400501
GameEntryTime=1203
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=1754810.000000
Lat=6549380.000000
Height=300.000000
Heading=232.281998
Speed=90.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=-1
ReportPosProbability=100
RandStartRadius=0.000000

[Group 2]
GroupName=Catalinas
CommandUnitName=BR PB Catalina#1
Category=1
RandStartRadius=0.000000
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
EvolveFromEntryDate=false

[Group 2.Unit 1]
Name=BR PB Catalina#1
Class=LBSPBYCatalina
Type=304
Origin=British
Side=1
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19400601
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
DockedShip=false
GameEntryDate=19400601
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=1782070.000000
Lat=6570370.000000
Height=500.000000
Heading=230.819962
Speed=90.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=-1
ReportPosProbability=100
RandStartRadius=0.000000
NextWP=0

[Group 2.Unit 1.Waypoint 1]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1749500.000000
Lat=6545170.000000
Height=500.000000

[Group 2.Unit 1.Waypoint 2]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1748360.000000
Lat=6544530.000000
Height=500.000000

[Group 2.Unit 1.Waypoint 3]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1746760.000000
Lat=6544690.000000
Height=500.000000

[Group 2.Unit 1.Waypoint 4]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1745820.000000
Lat=6545830.000000
Height=500.000000

[Group 2.Unit 1.Waypoint 5]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1746040.000000
Lat=6547070.000000
Height=500.000000

[Group 2.Unit 1.Waypoint 6]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1747360.000000
Lat=6547690.000000
Height=500.000000

[Group 2.Unit 1.Waypoint 7]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1748840.000000
Lat=6547750.000000
Height=500.000000

[Group 2.Unit 1.Waypoint 8]
Speed=90.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=0
LoopProbability=100
Long=1749740.000000
Lat=6546590.000000
Height=500.000000

[Group 2.Unit 2]
Name=BR PB Catalina#2
Class=LBSPBYCatalina
Type=304
Origin=British
Side=1
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19400601
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
DockedShip=false
Loadout=6xDepth Charge
GameEntryDate=19400601
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=1782310.000000
Lat=6570110.000000
Height=500.000000
Heading=230.820007
Speed=90.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=-1
ReportPosProbability=100
RandStartRadius=0.000000

[Unit 1]
Name=BR T2 Tanker#1
Class=OTMST2
Type=101
Origin=British
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=0
CargoInt=2
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
DockedShip=false
GameEntryDate=19380101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451201
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=1747180.000000
Lat=6550220.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=270.000000
Speed=0.000000
CrewRating=2
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=-1
ReportPosProbability=100
RandStartRadius=0.000000
NextWP=0

[Unit 1.Waypoint 1]
Speed=0.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1745800.000000
Lat=6550110.000000
Height=0.000000

[Unit 2]
Name=Type IXC#1
Class=SSTypeIXC
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=1
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19411001
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
DockedShip=false
GameEntryDate=19411201
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=1747940.000000
Lat=6542850.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=0.000000
Speed=0.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=-1
ReportPosProbability=100
RandStartRadius=0.000000
NextWP=0

[Unit 2.Waypoint 1]
Speed=0.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=1747180.000000
Lat=6550092.000000
Height=0.000000

[Objective 1]
ObjName=Tanker 10000t
Obj=2
ObjType=0
RenownAwarded=100
Tonnage=10000
TonnageType=0

[Objective 2]
ObjName=Flieger
Obj=0
ObjType=1
RenownAwarded=50
ClassName=LBSPBYCatalina
No=2

[EditorParams]
InitLongOff=1145803520.000000
InitLatOff=-201895504.000000
ZoomIndex=0

Please note: the first and last line is normal empty.

Swordfish without Radar. Catalina have Radar.
With the modified AI_VisualRange to 800m no Allies can "see" you. Your small detected-Sub-indicator is green.
The two Swordfish will circle in front of you for 10 minutes until the 1st Catalina comes in. As they have Radar your detected-Sub- indicator will turn into red. Immediately One Swordfisch will be redirectd to you, as your position is now known to enemies. As the Catalina have long-range-radar you get detected long before you can see the Catalina. The detected-Sub-indicator will stay red until after some time you get the 2nd Catalina.

This above procedure will cleanly show that the game is using Air-radar, since Visual can not see you.


Some notes:
Do not modify Realism Settings before Mission-Start.
Men the Flak-gun.
Fire at will.
Men the Repair-/Damage-team.

Rarely the 2nd Catalina may not come into view, after 15 in-game minutes. If that happen the secondary objective cannot be done.
You may use empty or cleaned Campaigne-files. If use original Campaigne-files you may also get Land-based Air-Raid.
Lastly get the Tanker, but this is only for amusement. This tanker has nothing to do with Air-radar.

Play this Mission at least 3 times.
Then de-activate the 800m Visual-Mod and play this Mission again 3 times.
You will see that the only difference is that every Air can "see" you now and the detected-Sub-indicator will turn into red when the 1st Air can "see" you. But otherwise the behavier is the same. Only with Bombs equipped Air will attack you.

Why only one sort of the Aircrafts will attack you? They are not Elite and do not have Bombs!
This is what is already known for a long time.



Now back to your own SH3-install.
Why do you think Air-radar is not used?
Why you see different results?
Go read your Campaigne-files and find what is different.
Have your scripted Aircrafts Bombs attached?
Are these Bombs really attached to the game? Really exists in any Bombs.dat?
If not -- the game falls back to "Basic"-equippment, which almost means, they have No Bombs. And therfore will not attack you. Of course, this can be made by intention. Then try ask the Programmer of your Campaign-files.
In relation to the in-game Year/Time the game decides when a Bomber will have Bombs attached or not. This can vary and different from the dates in the written down Equipment-files, *.eqp.
Thread SUBSIM Kendras "[TEC] My discoveries about wrong appearance dates":
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?p=2468211#post2468211 (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?p=2470026)
Also look at the Bomber that will only 'fly by' with "Previous/Next" (, .)-Key if the Bomber have Bombs equipped or not. But this will not always show the truth, since some installation will have unseeable Dummi-bombs. But this should be find out as long the Bomber-name is identified.
When an Aircraft is only 'fly by' does Not mean there is not using radar. It means it have no bombs or the bombs are 'broken' in the SH3-install.
As you may see, it can have different causers.


Greetings.
Have fun!