Gunman kills 19 children, 2 adults in Texas grade school

[Commander Wallace]

Yet another school shooting. :nope:


Quote: UVALDE, Texas (AP) — An 18-year-old gunman opened fire Tuesday at a Texas elementary school, killing at least 18 children as he went from classroom to classroom, officials said, in the latest gruesome moment for a country scarred by a string of massacres. The assailant was killed by law enforcement.


https://news.yahoo.com/texas-school-district-locked-down-173651467.html



It was the deadliest shooting at a U.S. grade school since a gunman killed 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Connecticut, almost a decade ago. And it came just 10 days after a gunman in body armor killed 10 Black shoppers and workers at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York, in what authorities say was a racist attack.


Federal law enforcement officials said the death toll was expected to rise. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release investigative details.


https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2022/may/hospital-2-dead-after-shooting-at-uvalde-texas-school

[Reece]

Oh that is so horrible, especially for the parents, basically a suicide mission but why take out innocent children??? :k_confused:

So sad. :wah:
Well he's now stoking the fire for eternity!! :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[Buddahaid]

Discusting and on top of finding out today a friend in New Orleans is fighting for his life.

https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_9b64887a-db6a-11ec-bec2-7f9d5c7fe95c.html

[em2nought]

Oh that is so horrible, especially for the parents, basically a suicide mission but why take out innocent children??? :k_confused:

So sad. :wah:
Well he's now stoking the fire for eternity!! :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

I really don't understand why these folks don't go after politicians instead of children. I mean if you want to blame someone for your problems other than yourself I'd think the obvious answer would be... :hmmm:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

One has to ask how in a state like Texas where were all the "good guys" with their guns?

[August]

One has to ask how in a state like Texas where were all the "good guys" with their guns?


From what I understand there was an all points bulletin out for the killer for the murder of his grandmother earlier in the day.

I'd like to know why elementary school outside doors are not kept locked while kids are still there.

[d@rk51d3]

From what I understand there was an all points bulletin out for the killer for the murder of his grandmother earlier in the day.

I'd like to know why elementary school outside doors are not kept locked while kids are still there.

Was reported here as a border force pursuit gone wrong, when he diverted into the school.

[Reece]

Discusting and on top of finding out today a friend in New Orleans is fighting for his life.

https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_9b64887a-db6a-11ec-bec2-7f9d5c7fe95c.html

I hope and pray your friend pulls through ok. :oops:

[Jimbuna]

Utterly tragic :nope:

[mapuc]

To my American friend I say

Welcome to your reality welcome to an ordinary day where this will be a common thing.

Markus

[Commander Wallace]

I really don't understand why these folks don't go after politicians instead of children. I mean if you want to blame someone for your problems other than yourself I'd think the obvious answer would be... :hmmm:


I don't understand why anyone would want to go after anyone with weapons, including politicians. In the twisted minds of these moron's, children and the older people are “ soft “ targets with no real means to defend themselves. I keep asking myself why anyone would want to do something like this. How does harming innocent children fix anything ? :Kaleun_Mad:
Find a hobby, go to the gym and beat up a punching bag, etc....


From what I understand there was an all points bulletin out for the killer for the murder of his grandmother earlier in the day.

I'd like to know why elementary school outside doors are not kept locked while kids are still there.

We discussed this in the Subsim forum's years ago August after a school shooting. Implementation of security systems as you suggested would be relatively easy to put into place. I'm guessing It was determined at some level that installing security wasn't “ cost effective.” Security systems should be implemented for all kids right from day care / kindergarten through to high school and also the colleges. I guess in their view, it's easier for the community to grieve over the loss of these innocent kids senselessly taken away and attend their funerals. :nope:


Discusting and on top of finding out today a friend in New Orleans is fighting for his life.

https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_9b64887a-db6a-11ec-bec2-7f9d5c7fe95c.html


As Reece already said, thoughts and prayers for your friend to pull through and recover.

[Commander Wallace]

To my American friend I say

Welcome to your reality welcome to an ordinary day where this will be a common thing.

Markus


That's hardly appropriate or constructive, Markus. :nope:

[blackswan40]

So how do gun laws work America

you have tobe 18

have proof of Address

are there any criminal and mental heath issue checks or can you just turn up at a gun shop buy two hand guns and automatic rifle and 200 plus rounds of amounition.
at 18 your deemed a man but at 17 your a minor time for a rethink.
Just my two cents worth.

[Skybird]

Will it this time finally be enough?


Unlikely.

[Commander Wallace]

So how do gun laws work America

you have tobe 18

have proof of Address

are there any criminal and mental heath issue checks or can you just turn up at a gun shop buy two hand guns and automatic rifle and 200 plus rounds of amounition.
at 18 your deemed a man but at 17 your a minor time for a rethink.
Just my two cents worth.


Sadly Andrew, the comprehensive back ground checks have lagged behind the times. Some states do a very good job of checking the background of people looking to buy firearms. Other states, not so much.

Apparently, the moron who shot these kids had posted on social media that he was planning " something big. " It has been reported he purchased the weapons he used in this rampage shortly after he turned 18.

Mental heath checks should certainly be mandatory in the purchase of weapons.

[Jimbuna]

So how do gun laws work America

you have tobe 18

have proof of Address

are there any criminal and mental heath issue checks or can you just turn up at a gun shop buy two hand guns and automatic rifle and 200 plus rounds of amounition.
at 18 your deemed a man but at 17 your a minor time for a rethink.
Just my two cents worth.

Sending you a PM.....enjoy :03:

[August]

So how do gun laws work America

you have tobe 18

have proof of Address

are there any criminal and mental heath issue checks or can you just turn up at a gun shop buy two hand guns and automatic rifle and 200 plus rounds of amounition.
at 18 your deemed a man but at 17 your a minor time for a rethink.
Just my two cents worth.


50 states 50 answers to your question.


Here in Massachusetts you need a license to buy a gun and pass a background check. Problem here is that the murderer did pass that background check. I expect a lot of anti-gun legislation that would not address the actual problem of nut cases being allowed to walk our streets.

[mapuc]

That's hardly appropriate or constructive, Markus. :nope:

I know and I'm sorry but this was what were on my mind when I wrote it.

I feel so sorry for all these parents who has lost a love one.

Since it has happen before AND it will happen again because America has this NRA organization who will fight any law that strengthen it.

However all this is not my headache even though I'm truly sorry for all these life lost due to NRA and other organization who fights tighter weapon laws.

Then you could say-I'm not an American it's not my problem.

Markus

[August]

I know and I'm sorry but this was what were on my mind when I wrote it.

I feel so sorry for all these parents who has lost a love one.

Since it has happen before AND it will happen again because America has this NRA organization who will fight any law that strengthen it.

However all this is not my headache even though I'm truly sorry for all these life lost due to NRA and other organization who fights tighter weapon laws.

Then you could say-I'm not an American it's not my problem.

Markus


Why do you blame the tool and not the perpetrator Markus? Would you feel better if they were all pushed out of windows or run down by a speeding SUV?

The NRA, or what is left of it, fights for our right to possess firearms, a constitutionally protected right that is supposed to be recognized by the government and not infringed upon. You will never hear them say that mentally deficient people should be allowed to buy firearms.

You can take every gun out of the country (well theoretically anyways, I wouldn't surrender mine without a fight) and you would still have mass murderers. Did you know that the largest school massacre in my country was NOT perpetrated with a gun? Thirty-eight elementary school children blown up by a disgruntled school board member. The death toll would have been much higher if all of the explosives he planted had gone off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[Ostfriese]

Well, as it's always a mentally ill/deficient person who commits such mass shootings why don't you vote for universal healthcare so that these people can receive the help they need, instead of voting for the party that wants to give out more guns?


Or how about an age restriction, considering that most perpetrators of mass shootings are younger than 25?


And while we are at it: the NRA does not fight for your right to possess firearms. They fight for the producers right to sell firearms to you, they don't give a =(%& about the average John Doe.

[Ostfriese]

Will it this time finally be enough?


Unlikely.


We shouldn't be too smug - it's absolutely illogical in many ways not to have a general speed limit, yet even mentioning a general speed limit ends political careers over here.

[mapuc]

Why do you blame the tool and not the perpetrator Markus? Would you feel better if they were all pushed out of windows or run down by a speeding SUV?

The NRA, or what is left of it, fights for our right to possess firearms, a constitutionally protected right that is supposed to be recognized by the government and not infringed upon. You will never hear them say that mentally deficient people should be allowed to buy firearms.

You can take every gun out of the country (well theoretically anyways, I wouldn't surrender mine without a fight) and you would still have mass murderers. Did you know that the largest school massacre in my country was NOT perpetrated with a gun? Thirty-eight elementary school children blown up by a disgruntled school board member. The death toll would have been much higher if all of the explosives he planted had gone off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

You're right Dave it's not the tool but the person behind it who's the problem

I was shocked by what this Danish reporter said in the news today..In USA any 18 years old can walk into a weapon shop and buy an AR15 with ammo but he has to wait until he is 21 if he wants to buy a beer.

I'm not against people own a weapon what I want is-Whatever weapon you buy you shall be checked before getting the weapon.

Meaning any American has to wait couple of weeks while they are being checked before they can buy the gun/rifle.
And for some weapon I would say special checking should be made.

That's how I would do it.

Then the question is-Would it help, would it prevent future mass shooting from happening ?

Markus

[Skybird]

We shouldn't be too smug - it's absolutely illogical in many ways not to have a general speed limit, yet even mentioning a general speed limit ends political careers over here.
Sorry, I must object. It does not compare.
What was said and shown in Bowling for Columbine still has an awful lot to do with it, unfortunately.

(I neither drive nor own a car. I have a driver's license, last used 33 years ago.)

[Rockstar]

50 states 50 answers to your question.


Here in Massachusetts you need a license to buy a gun and pass a background check. Problem here is that the murderer did pass that background check. I expect a lot of anti-gun legislation that would not address the actual problem of nut cases being allowed to walk our streets.

He wasn’t applying for a security clearance. Background checks to purchase a firearm are looking for convicted felons with a record. So of course he passed his background check. He was only 18 years old what did anyone expect to find? :yep:

[August]

Then the question is-Would it help, would it prevent future mass shooting from happening ?


Who knows, probably not seeing as how laws are only heeded by those not intending to commit such heinous crimes in the first place. But one thing I do know, mass murders will still happen regardless of what laws they pass.

Gun, bomb, vehicle, poison, there are a 1000 ways to commit mass murder if that is ones intention. The means is secondary to that.

[Rockstar]

Let’s not forget the militarization of police, veneration of the military, and the daily media bombardment of how delivering weapons to foreign countries and military involvement in pacific islands is the answer to all of our problems.

The kid probably figures what works for your representatives works for him just on a smaller scale. He was still a child, maybe increase the age limit.

[mapuc]

One thing you should do is to set an age like 21 years old before the person can buy a weapon.

Except certain type of weapon where the person can be 18 years old.

Markus

[Dargo]

Wonder if the same people got physically sick as Russian forces slaughter hundreds of children and thousands of civilians in Ukraine since February, or if it's just selective grief for political stances.

https://i.postimg.cc/9XYfdBgc/FTk-GPCXEAAss-Ke.png

[Platapus]

I simply don't understand the mindset that would allow someone to do this. :nope:

[Platapus]

Mental heath checks should certainly be mandatory in the purchase of weapons.


At some point we will need to address the boundaries between HIPAA and Public Safety and that won't be easy nor pleasant.

[mapuc]

For me as an outsider it is shocking that an 18 years old can walk right into a weapon shop, buy an assault weapon with ammo and walk away with it.
(This what our Reporter said in the news)

Markus

[Platapus]

Keep in mind that an Assault Weapon is a political/legal term, not necessarily a technically accurate term.

[Rockstar]

Sadly Andrew, the comprehensive back ground checks have lagged behind the times. Some states do a very good job of checking the background of people looking to buy firearms. Other states, not so much.

Apparently, the moron who shot these kids had posted on social media that he was planning " something big. " It has been reported he purchased the weapons he used in this rampage shortly after he turned 18.

Mental heath checks should certainly be mandatory in the purchase of weapons.

What the hell does ‘comprehensive background check’ mean? IMO it’s a meaningless political catch phrase. But just in case I’m wrong maybe you can enlighten me. :)

How on earth will this mental health check be of any help if someone has never visited a doctor of psychiatry and been diagnosed with a mental disorder and what mental disorder would you deny someone legal possession of a firearm?

If someone like this 18 year old child has no record of any felony or certain misdemeanor charges convictions what will a background check prove?

How about we sheetcan social media platforms, dump the cell phones, turn off the TV, stop handing out medications to ‘fix’ children’s behavior like it was candy, learn how to write a letter instead of texting

There isn’t a law anywhere on any of the books that ‘stops’ anyone or can prevent people from doing anything they want. It takes more than a bunch of idiot politicians and drama queens bickering like little girls and calling each other names and baby killers and generating even more laws. IMO it’ll take a helluva lot more than those clowns on the hill can do.

[mapuc]

This what one of my American friend wrote in an answer to a common friend

"With the Republican party it goes in one ear and out the other , they are in bed with the NRA who pays them off from passing gun laws."

I'm not much into American politics I hope that both side is interested in some kind of regulation.

Markus

[Commander Wallace]

What the hell does ‘comprehensive background check’ mean? IMO it’s a meaningless political catch phrase. But just in case I’m wrong maybe you can enlighten me. :)

How on earth will this mental health check be of any help if someone has never visited a doctor of psychiatry and been diagnosed with a mental disorder and what mental disorder would you deny someone legal possession of a firearm?

If someone like this 18 year old child has no record of any felony or certain misdemeanor charges convictions what will a background check prove?

How about we sheetcan social media platforms, dump the cell phones, turn off the TV, stop handing out medications to ‘fix’ children’s behavior like it was candy, learn how to write a letter instead of texting

There isn’t a law anywhere on any of the books that ‘stops’ anyone or can prevent people from doing anything they want. It takes more than a bunch of idiot politicians and drama queens bickering like little girls and calling each other names and baby killers and generating even more laws. IMO it’ll take a helluva lot more than those clowns on the hill can do.


Comprehensive means just that, not a half ass-ed wink and a nod. I'm all for 2nd amendment and hunter rights. August had pointed something out in an earlier post. It's not so much the weapons but the crazies behind them. With that in mind, I think we can all agree that mentally unbalanced and unstable people shouldn't have access to weapons.

We have had 2 major shootings in 6 days in Texas and Buffalo New York. Only an Idiot would say we don't have an epidemic or problem. With the public having access to weapons, things will happen. I submit that the vast majority of people with weapons are law abiding, forthright and stable people. Crazy and moronic people with guns are the problem.

To be sure, without guns, these people will find other ways to kill but won't be able to kill as many in such a short amount of time and give law enforcement time to to arrive and restrain them or take them out. If people want to kill, they will do it with knives, baseball bats, cars, rocks etc..... You pointed that out and you are right that this individual didn't show up " on radar."

It hasn't been reported that this individual had any mental issues but they are still investigating. There are no hard and fast ways to prevent shootings but certainly, if the will was there, these schools could be made secure relatively cheaply.


At some point we will need to address the boundaries between HIPAA and Public Safety and that won't be easy nor pleasant.


None of this will be easy but we need to start somewhere.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Ah the don't blame the tool argument.. Well while there are plenty of other ways to commit mass murder if the gunman didn't have the gun then what would he use? A knife, a hammer, an axe, a concrete in-cased bulldozer? A person is a lot more likely to survive a stab or a slash then they would after a bullet explodes someones brains all over a 5 year old students desk.

[Rockstar]

Comprehensive means just that, not a half ass-ed wink and a nod.

That still doesn’t explain what a comprehensive background check is. It’s a feel good statement.

I'm all for 2nd amendment and hunter rights. August had pointed something out in an earlier post. It's not so much the weapons but the crazies behind them. With that in mind, I think we can all agree that mentally unbalanced and unstable people shouldn't have access to weapons.

I think we can agree. But AGAIN I ask, if a someone has never visited a psychiatrist who can make a professional diagnoses which could prevent someone from legally possessing a firearm what good is your comprehensive background check going to do? Next question is what mental disorder are you speaking of that would disqualify someone from possessing a firearm?

We have had 2 major shootings in 6 days in Texas and Buffalo New York. Only an Idiot would say we don't have an epidemic or problem. With the public having access to weapons, things will happen. I submit that the vast majority of people with weapons are law abiding, forthright and stable people. Crazy and moronic people with guns are the problem.

Don’t forget the Asian hate crime in California.

Yet we have a crap ton of laws already on the books which quite clearly explain to the community that killing another is wrong and a punishable offense. Still, there are both insane and sane who disregard the multitude of laws already on the books and kill. If someone has never had any priors or convictions that snazzy comprehensive background check will like the mental health check reveal absolutely nothing which disqualifies a buyer.

There is one law on the books that has been proven time and time again which points to the reason why people including those who never had priors or mental disorders kill. It’s the Law of Causation maybe start looking into that to find root causes because it sure as hell doesn’t seem to me lack of comprehensive background checks or enacting more laws will prevent people from having so little regard for another’s life.

[Commander Wallace]

If you don't know what comprehensive means, I don't know what to tell you. Have it your way with regards to a " feel good statement.".


Definition of comprehensive




1 : covering completely or broadly : inclusive (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inclusive) comprehensive examinations



As for everything else, isn't that what I have already said ?

[Rockstar]

If you don't know what comprehensive means, I don't know what to tell you.


Definition of comprehensive




1 : covering completely or broadly : inclusive (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inclusive) comprehensive examinations



As for everything else, isn't that what I have already said ?


No I don’t think you even came close. I know what comprehensive means: ‘covering completely or broadly’. You keep saying we need ‘comprehensive background checks’. I’m asking you what the hell that means in other words when you send the bill to the house for a vote what exactly is in the bill you just proposed? Will all citizens be required to take monthly psych evaluation? Will insurance companies cover the cost? I also asked what good does it do for those without priors who legally purchase a firearm and use it later to take another’s life? Will we be required to register all firearms and ask permission from a central switch board to open our government approved safe we have to buy and keep in our home?

Did you read anything concerning the law of causation? It’s a real honest to goodness law of nature we can’t deny. Which was why I suggested maybe looking at root causes that may explain the individuals actions. Hell we may even find they had things in common. Might learn what drives people to have so little regard for another’s life or the multitude of laws already on the books.

I think Ostfriese offered a good idea that actually benefits people

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS3cAOEVTss

[Ostfriese]

Ah the don't blame the tool argument.. Well while there are plenty of other ways to commit mass murder if the gunman didn't have the gun then what would he use? A knife, a hammer, an axe, a concrete in-cased bulldozer? A person is a lot more likely to survive a stab or a slash then they would after a bullet explodes someones brains all over a 5 year old students desk.


In addition to that:
The "tool" doesn't exist in a vacuum. Besides their function as a killing "tool" (unlike a knife they don't have another function) they are a symbol, and they influence people in a negative, damaging way, and especially young people have a hard time resisting these influences.

[mapuc]

That still doesn’t explain what a comprehensive background check is. It’s a feel good statement.



I think we can agree. But AGAIN I ask, if a someone has never visited a psychiatrist who can make a professional diagnoses which could prevent someone from legally possessing a firearm what good is your comprehensive background check going to do? Next question is what mental disorder are you speaking of that would disqualify someone from possessing a firearm?



1. Set age to 21 before you legally can purchase a weapon
2. If no Psychological diagnose has been made before-The person shall take one of these test.
3. Should it be the buyer or the seller of weapon who should collect information from the police about the buyer ?

Markus

[Cybermat47]

Mental healthcare and the ease with which people are getting their hands on firearms both need to be adressed.

In Australia, you need to go through a whole process before you're allowed to own a firearm. As a result, we've gone decades without a mass shooting and I've still been able to send plenty of lead downrange.

The idea that the US doesn't have a similar system on the federal level seems absurd to me, but how else are all these insane people getting their hands on firearms?

The only people with firearms should be people who have proven that they can use them safely and responsibly. The US already does the same with other dangerous tools like cars, after all.

[August]

In addition to that:
The "tool" doesn't exist in a vacuum. Besides their function as a killing "tool" (unlike a knife they don't have another function) they are a symbol, and they influence people in a negative, damaging way, and especially young people have a hard time resisting these influences.


No the tool doesn't exist in a vacuum which is kind of the point but it's irrelevant how many uses you can get out of rifle that doesn't involve killing (although I can think of three off the top of my head) as human rights, especially constitutionally protected ones, do not have to be justified.


Another thing one should realize is that abuse of a right does not justify denying it to everyone. There's a fine legal term (in Latin no less) that Platapus is fond of which illustrates this principle. If it did we would soon have no rights at all, because they all have been abused at some point somehow.



The problem is not guns any more than SUVs were the problem in the Black Racist attack on that parade in Wisconsin last winter. The problem is how we ignore lunacy like that until it's too late.

[mapuc]

Instead of discussing what your favorite politician have said they would do(as they do each time this happens)

I ask you what would you do to, not prevent because this is impossible, but to make it harder to buy a weapon ?

Markus

[Rockstar]

Making it harder for me to buy a firearm I don’t think will change the mind of someone who has no regard for human life. Since the early 1960s research evidence has been accumulating that suggests that exposure to violence in television, movies, video games, cell phones, and on the internet increases the risk of violent behavior. TAKE THAT AWAY. make that harder to access. Make better standards of living and health care MORE accessible. Take away the video games, cell phones and social media platforms.

The kids cellphone and social media platforms gave him instant access to fame and notoriety.

The number of firearms I own didn’t have jack squat to do with it.

[Ostfriese]

Making it harder for me to buy a firearm I don’t think will change the mind of someone who has no regard for human life. Since the early 1960s research evidence has been accumulating that suggests that exposure to violence in television, movies, video games, cell phones, and on the internet increases the risk of violent behavior. TAKE THAT AWAY. make that harder to access. Make better standards of living and health care MORE accessible. Take away the video games, cell phones and social media platforms.



If that were true then explain to me why this is a problem only in the US. TV, movies, video games, cell phones aren't exclusive to the US, but are also extremely common for people in Europe, in Japan, in South Korea, in Australia, in New Zealand and in other parts of the world, of which NONE suffers similar problems.



There have been 27 mass school shootings in the USA in 2022, and it's not even June. There hasn't been a mass shooting at a school anywhere else in the world this year, most countries in the world haven't experienced mass shootings for DECADES.


Firearms are the number one death cause for US American teenagers. Let that sink in. Not drugs, not alcohol, not car accidents nor other accidents.

[Rockstar]

I guess we could start with the number of hours per day children in each country spend on TV, social media, what is presented on TV, social media and amount of time spent playing violent video games.

I just can’t deny the studies that suggest all of the above DOES have an affect on children. Obviously access to firearms is also an issue which was why I also suggested maybe raising the age limit to 21 particularly for high capacity semi-automatics.

I’ll be the first to admit I do not have all the answers. I am very curious to know what motivated him because it wasn’t always like this, what changed? Was he on prescription meds? That seems to be very common theme for a lot kids these days too

[Ostfriese]

I guess we could start with the number of hours per day children in each country spend on TV, social media, what is presented on TV, social media and amount of time spent playing violent video games.


I agree in principle - but shouldn't that be left to the parents rather than being regulated by the state? I may be wrong here, but isn't one of the conservative talking points in the US "less government!", yet this proposal would mean the opposite.


I just can’t deny the studies that suggest all of the above DOES have an affect on children. Obviously access to firearms is also an issue which was why I also suggested maybe raising the age limit to 21 particularly for high capacity semi-automatics.
Why not for any guns regardless of whatever limitation you can think of? You can't buy alcoholic drinks of any kind legally in the US if you are under 21. What would be so difficult to create a similar law in which the word "alcohol" is replaced by "gun"?


I’ll be the first to admit I do not have all the answers. I am very curious to know what motivated him because it wasn’t always like this, what changed?
When there's a person who you'd like to ask "what (has) changed" would you still want this very same person to be able to get a gun? Shouldn't the simple fact that you have doubts be enough to raise the red flags?

[Rockstar]

I agree in principle - but shouldn't that be left to the parents rather than being regulated by the state? I may be wrong here, but isn't one of the conservative talking points in the US "less government!", yet this proposal would mean the opposite.

I agree it should be regulated by parents but unfortunately the way our economy is set up. I think parents or most likely these days the parent is so harried trying to make ends meet there is little time to spend with and guide a child, the child is in my opinion left to his own device. His guide is social media, TV, games, media bombardments filled with violence.

Why not for any guns regardless of whatever limitation you can think of? You can't buy alcoholic drinks of any kind legally in the US if you are under 21. What would be so difficult to create a similar law in which the word "alcohol" is replaced by "gun"?

Because there are millions of 18 year old sportsmen who are of a sound mind, hunting wild game with a single fire bolt action should not be made hard to get. Whereas it’s illegal to hunt with a semi-automatic rifle anyway unless there is a permanent restrictor plate installed preventing more than 3 rounds in the magazine


When there's a person who you'd like to ask "what (has) changed" would you still want this very same person to be able to get a gun? Shouldn't the simple fact that you have doubts be enough to raise the red flags?

My hindsight is perfect. But the so called comprehensive background checks only reveal past records and convictions. Not the buyers current state of mind or future intentions. At the time of purchase there were absolutely no red flags presented to the seller or the manufacture of the firearms. I think the question were any red flags presented should be addressed to his parents, peers, and community.

But I’m thinking something in society has changed for better AND for worse. Hell, granted it was only a cursory review but it appears even South Korea has increasing crime and violence rates. We are just as much a part of nature as the law of causation is a part of nature. It’s cause and effect guns have been around a very long time but why are we in my opinion seeing an increase in violence and more people with so little regard for human life.

[Ostfriese]

I agree it should be regulated by parents but unfortunately the way our economy is set up. I think parents or most likely these days the parent is so harried trying to make ends meet there is little time to spend with and guide a child. Therefore the child is in my opinion left his own devices. His guide is social media, TV, games, media bombardments filled with violence.


And again: children and teenagers all over the world consume the same media, yet mass shooting and gun violence commited by teens are only a problem in the US.


Because there are millions of 18 year old sportsmen who are of a sound mind, hunting wild game with a single fire bolt action should not be made hard to get. Whereas it’s illegal to hunt with a semi-automatic rifle anyway unless there is a permanent restrictor plate installed preventing more than 3 rounds in the magazine


Yet at the same time you want to restrict media for millions of teenagers who consume media without going on gun rampages.

My hindsight is perfect.


This is not about hindsight. If there is even the slightest doubt about a person's character and mental stability he or she should not be able to buy a gun.

[Rockstar]

And again: children and teenagers all over the world consume the same media, yet mass shooting and gun violence commited by teens are only a problem in the US.

and again: there does appear to be an uptick in violence not just in the United States. Why? Some studies suggest media violence does have an affect on the population. Guns have been around a lot longer than the uptick in violence. The firearm is not the reason for the uptick in violence nor will removing them solve the problem of the growth of violent people.

Yet at the same time you want to restrict media for millions of teenagers who consume media without going on gun rampages.

I didn’t say I wanted too, I said: “I agree it should be regulated by parents” but then went on to say crap hours, minimum wage and scrambling to make ends meet can make that difficult to do which then leaves child to his own devices.

Furthermore we’re not zombies, not everyone is wired the same. Just look at Subsim, how many people tired of the things said here, got up and left never to be heard from again. Maybe they went hunting, started a garden, wrote a book, built a boat or went sailing, spent more time with family, got a better job, took up an outdoor hobby or travelled. There are other things to do besides counting how many thumbs up you get or gossip.

This is not about hindsight. If there is even the slightest doubt about a person's character and mental stability he or she should not be able to buy a gun.

I agree though I think it is about hindsight, because there is no law or background check in the world that can reveal the future. Even questions regarding red flags I think can only be addressed by those closest to the killer after the fact. Other than that what people want I think is akin to the movie ‘Minority Report’

[August]

There have been 27 mass school shootings in the USA in 2022,




Where did you get that crazy figure?

[Skybird]

Mass shootings have become so common in the US that we have developed a pathology for how to react. The aggrieved families who have lost someone they loved are the recipients of thoughts and prayers. Law enforcement is praised for keeping the tragedy from becoming even more horrific. Counseling is offered to survivors. Politicians come to town to express their sympathy and outrage, and vow that the latest community will recover and stand "Texas strong" or "Sandy Hook strong" or "Parkland strong."

But nothing happens to prevent another shooting.

We pray. But don't legislate. And prayer clearly is not stopping the slaughter. In all the statements to come from conservative politicians following up Tuesday's deadly shooting (https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/texas-elementary-school-shooting-05-24-22) in Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, where 19 children and two adults were killed, do not expect to hear even a solitary voice suggest gun reform. The Second Amendment is always treated as more important than the lives of children. Words like "evil" and "incomprehensible" and "horrific" will be thrown around and, as Republican US Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas urged us, we will be encouraged to "come together as a nation." (https://www.cruz.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sen-cruz-issues-statement-on-uvalde-shooting) But I suspect we -- or some of us -- already have. Some of us came together and decided that no horror caused by guns can be worse than restricting access to guns.

The governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, a very conservative Republican, went before television cameras Tuesday and said, "When parents drop their kids off at school, they have every expectation to know they will be able to pick that child up when that school day ends." The governor ought to be asked how a parent can have that assurance when he said he was upset his constituents weren't buying enough guns.

"I'm EMBARRASSED," (https://twitter.com/gregabbott_tx/status/659427797853536256?lang=en) Abbott tweeted in 2015. "Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let's pick up the pace Texans."
He helped his state compete in that gun-buying contest with California. Just last year, Abbott proudly signed into law what he called a "constitutional carry" (https://www.texastribune.org/2021/06/16/texas-constitutional-carry-greg-abbott/) bill, which allowed anyone over 21 to carry a gun without getting a permit, and he did it after the El Paso mass killing (https://www.texastribune.org/2021/06/04/texas-constitutional-carry-el-paso/) in 2019. There is always the flawed premise that more guns will make it likely a murderer will be stopped by one. Prior to Abbott's signing of the measure, a license to carry required fingerprints, four to six hours of training, a written exam and a shooting proficiency test.

But that's over. Guns in Texas won. Regulations and reform lost. Wasn't even a real contest. Gov. Abbott is quick, however, to ban books (https://www.texastribune.org/2021/11/08/greg-abbott-books-schools-texas/)that offend his political sensibilities, but gun ownership cannot be constrained.

When President Joe Biden (https://www.cnn.com/specials/politics/joe-biden-news), however, spoke in the hours after the Uvalde tragedy, his words were angry, though mostly aspirational because he knows the political reality confronting gun reform proponents. All he has right now is words, and his opponents have the votes. A bill to expand background checks on gun buyers (https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/11/politics/background-checks-gun-bills-house-vote/index.html) passed the US House of Representatives two years ago but there is nowhere near the number of yeses in the Senate to get it to the president's desk.

"As a nation," President Biden said. "We have to ask, when in God's name will we stand up to the gun lobby. When in God's name will we do what we know what has to be done ... I am sick and tired of it. We have to act and don't tell me we can't have an impact on this carnage."

Biden pointed out that the previous ban on assault weapons reduced mass killings but when it was repealed, he said, they tripled. He said the public and politicians have to be encouraged to stand up to the gun industry and he wondered while on his 17-hour flight home from Asia why the US is the only nation in the world that deals with recurrent mass shooting incidents.
"These kinds of mass shootings rarely happen in other parts of the world," he said. "But they have mental health problems. They have people who are lost ... Why are we willing to let this happen? Where, in God's name, is our backbone? It's time to turn this pain into action."

Those other nations don't have gun lobbies?

Gun rights advocates seem to have plans while reformers struggle against a powerful manufacturers' lobby, the National Rifle Association and with how much regulation is too much.

The Second Amendment doesn't have to be destroyed to save our country. The Constitution is a living document. Maybe it needs to be tempered for the times and adjusted from a 1776 context to an era when there are computers that can talk to each other, and guns that can fire an astonishing number of rounds. Isn't there a law that can be written to order state and federal databases for mental health and criminal records and gun purchases to all interact and share information? Aren't we smart enough as a culture to find language to protect our fundamental rights and our children?

The era of mass shootings in which we live probably began in Texas on August 1, 1966, when a gunman climbed the University of Texas tower with a high-powered rifle and began shooting people walking on campus. Charles Whitman (https://www.britannica.com/event/Texas-Tower-shooting-of-1966)killed 16 people that bright summer day after he had already murdered his wife and mother. The incident was the first to transpire live and was broadcast to a horrified city of Austin. Since then, Texans have watched certain towns gain notoriety for dark reasons. Mass killings in Sutherland Springs (https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/texas-news/air-force-ordered-to-pay-more-than-230m-in-sutherland-springs-church-shooting/2882519/) and El Paso (https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/03/us/el-paso-shooting/index.html) and Santa Fe (https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/18/us/texas-school-shooting-victims/index.html) and Midland-Odessa (https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/01/us/odessa-texas-shooting-sunday/index.html) and Dallas (https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/24/us/dallas-cops-shot/index.html) and the cafeteria shooting in Killeen (https://www.kwtx.com/2021/10/16/30-years-ago-today-massacre-lubys-cafeteria-killeen/) and a Fort Hood mass slaying. (https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/army-major-kills-13-people-in-fort-hood-shooting-spree) The full list is even longer.

Hard to deny that the horrors started here. Now let this be the time and place that creates the political will to let Texas be the place where it comes to an end.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/25/opinions/uvalde-texas-elementary-school-shooting-guns-moore/index.html

---------------------------

And this statistics display. It puts America to shame. Amok runs you have in other countries, too. But not at this number, it just does not compare. Never. Nowhere. In no way.

https://www.nationalworld.com/news/world/how-many-school-shootings-america-since-1970s-after-texas-mass-attack-3708741

---------------------

Bowling for Columbine hinted at the root problem, and that is the cultivation of the violence cult in American culture. Where violence gets glorified in a culture from top to bottom, the fruits harvested are according to the seeds that had been sown. There is no surprise in the results.

Be that as it may, the uSA is not the first civilization in history to hold regular human sacrifice in high esteem, though this is additionally reinforced here by profit motive.

[Rockstar]

The cnn article is purely political kabuki. It solves nothing, offers no solutions it just simply perpetuates further political divide into team D and team R.

What I want to know is did France, Germany and Italy conduct any background checks on Putin before they sold him weapons?

France and Germany 'sold £230,000,000 of weapons to Russia before invasion'
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/france-and-germany-sold-c2-a3230000000-of-weapons-to-russia-before-invasion/ar-AAWvzrh

As a result of aggression of the Russian Federation in Ukraine 240 children were lost, more than 436 - are wounded, - Office of the Prosecutor General Джерело: https://censor.net/ua/n3343936


No red flags?

[Skybird]

^ Distraction. Russia is not responsible for school schootings en masse in the US, nor is Germany or France.



I could now ask some questions about the NRA, but I am not in the mood to stirr concrete that has long since dried and hardened.

[mapuc]

Maybe the American should think twice before putting their vote on the beloved/Trusted politician.

What does it help when the American is yelling WHY and when will it stop, when they vote on a politician who are against any weapon regulation.

Markus

[Rockstar]

^ Distraction. Russia is not responsible for school schootings en masse in the US, nor is Germany or France.



I could now ask some questions about the NRA, but I am not in the mood to stirr concrete that has long since dried and hardened.

I didn’t say Russia was responsible for school shooting’s in the U.S. What I’m saying is Putin is responsible for the murder of children in Ukraine and all of Europe is responsible for selling him the dual-purpose and weapon systems that helped him do it.

No background checks no red flags?

[Rockstar]

Maybe the American should think twice before putting their vote on the beloved/Trusted politician.

What does it help when the American is yelling WHY and when will it stop, when they vote on a politician who are against any weapon regulation.

Markus

It isn’t always more regulations, government control, and laws. IMO it’s pretty obvious we have enough of them already. If people are having trouble discerning between right and wrong and have a complete disregard for human life. Then I think something else is seriously amiss.

[Platapus]

This what one of my American friend wrote in an answer to a common friend

"With the Republican party it goes in one ear and out the other , they are in bed with the NRA who pays them off from passing gun laws."

I'm not much into American politics I hope that both side is interested in some kind of regulation.

Markus


Please note that NRA membership represents about 5-10% of gun owners in the US.



I have been a gun owner since Carter's administration and used to shoot in competitions -- never joined the NRA.



Second, in the 2016 election (last report I read), the total amount of political donations to ANY candidate,m from the NRA, did not make the top 50 sources of donations. Pharma donations dwarf what the NRA donates.


If you want to talk about bribing congress not to pass laws, the NRA is strictly minor league



The NRA is politically important only because people think they are politically important.



The sad news is that neither side really wants to do anything about it. They want to talk about doing something in order to garner votes, but if you read the actual texts of "gun control" legislation, you will see a whole lot of extra stuff that has nothing to do with public safety added because of political party agendas.


I will believe that a politician is truly interested in addressing this issue when they propose and pass simple legislation that only focuses on one issue. Find something that both sides can agree on (and there is a lot) and pass just that. That is the only way things will change.



I am sure that US politicians are not that much different from other piece of crap politicians around the world. They all have the same priorities


1. Get elected/reelected
2. Prevent the other party candidate from being elected/reelected
3. Help others in their party get elected/reelected
4. Prevent candidates in the opposing political party from getting elected/reelected


Doing the right thing for the people? A bit lower on the list.



I have more respect for a whore working the streets than I do for a politician.

[mapuc]

It isn’t always more regulations, government control, and laws. IMO it’s pretty obvious we have enough of them already. If people are having trouble discerning between right and wrong and have a complete disregard for human life. Then I think something else is seriously amiss.

I can see one regulation you need to adapt-Change the age of when a person can buy a gun from 18 to 21-Some type of guns you can be 18 years old to buy.
Another regulation you also need to adapt is the psychological test.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Admittedly an increase in the age limit may prove somewhat helpful under certain circumstances for certain firearms, MAYBE. But then it does not stop or reduce the uptick in violence and the lack of compassion and respect for life.

TEXAS shooter Salvador Ramos may have revealed his chilling plans to kill children in a callous school shooting online after LOSING at the violent video game Dead by Daylight, a gamer claimed.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/5420488/texas-shooter-salvador-ramos-video-game/

[Onkel Neal]

I would be fine if we raise the age to legally buy, own, or handle firearms to 30. No exceptions.

[Skybird]

I didn’t say Russia was responsible for school shooting’s in the U.S. What I’m saying is Putin is responsible for the murder of children in Ukraine and all of Europe is responsible for selling him the dual-purpose and weapon systems that helped him do it.

No background checks no red flags?
Belongs entirely into the Ukraine threat, has nothing to do with this one.

[Rockstar]

I would be fine if we raise the age to legally buy, own, or handle firearms to 30. No exceptions.

The minimum age for buying smokes and booze is now 21 country wide and I think for good reason.

Lord knows we got more so called comprehensive checks & laws coming out our ears already. But unlike yesteryear, I think some children today spend a lot of time alone, playing violent video games and talking smack at each other on social media while hiding behind a computer screen in their mother’s basement. Maybe the necessity for real life experience is required before they can purchase a firearm too. Upping the age may be step in the right direction.

But then it still doesn’t solve the uptick in violence and IMO easily remedied causes either. Hell look at our party officials being confrontational, screaming and pointing fingers at each other. Calling the other baby killers and telling another to f-off on social media and public media. Ya more laws is what’s needed :roll:

Of course the next argument on behalf of the 18 year old to come along will be, if he’s old enough to be issued a gun fight our wars, he’s old enough to buy one.

[Sean C]

Apparently there is an active mass shooting event in Marion County, West Virginia right now. Not sure of the circumstances/details yet.

Link to Marion County Sheriff/EMS and Fairmont Police and Fire scanner feed. (https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/10948)

*EDIT: This turned out to be a shootout with the police.*

[MaDef]

You kids forget, smoking and alcohol use are not in the constitution, The right to bear arms however is a right guaranteed by the constitution. You all need to figure out the difference between a right and a privilege before you start posting some of these "ideas".

[Rockstar]

You kids forget, smoking and alcohol use are not in the constitution, The right to bear arms however is a right guaranteed by the constitution. You all need to figure out the difference between a right and a privilege before you start posting some of these "ideas".

Good point

[Skybird]

Any constitution is a product of its time and that time's circumstances. It alrready starts with that it is written in the language and typical phrasing that was spoken at that time, and that in the present might be considered "old-fashioned".



Nothing last forever, nothing stays unchanged.



Get the dust off it. The royal red coats are gone since long, no more Indians assault white farmers.

[Cybermat47]

You kids forget, smoking and alcohol use are not in the constitution, The right to bear arms however is a right guaranteed by the constitution. You all need to figure out the difference between a right and a privilege before you start posting some of these "ideas".

Doesn’t the 2nd Amendment say something about ‘well-regulated militias’?

I don’t know, a mentally ill teenager who wants to murder little kids doesn’t sound ‘well-regulated’ to me.

[Buddahaid]

Doesn’t the 2nd Amendment say something about ‘well-regulated militias’?

I don’t know, a mentally ill teenager who wants to murder little kids doesn’t sound ‘well-regulated’ to me.

Exactly. That opens the whole subject up to gun control laws.

[Rockstar]

Any constitution is a product of its time and that time's circumstances. It alrready starts with that it is written in the language and typical phrasing that was spoken at that time, and that in the present might be considered "old-fashioned".



Nothing last forever, nothing stays unchanged.



Get the dust off it. The royal red coats are gone since long, no more Indians assault white farmers.

1- The House and Senate must vote a two thirds majority for an amendment to be drafted.

2- Two thirds of the states may vote for a Constitutional Convention where an amendment can be drafted.

Also, nothing in the constitution says anything about a right to purchase firearms or anything about age or maturity levels. I think it safe to say you can possess them but you may not be able to buy one until a certain age similar to handguns.

[Commander Wallace]

and again: there does appear to be an uptick in violence not just in the United States. Why? Some studies suggest media violence does have an affect on the population. Guns have been around a lot longer than the uptick in violence. The firearm is not the reason for the uptick in violence nor will removing them solve the problem of the growth of violent people.



I didn’t say I wanted too, I said: “I agree it should be regulated by parents” but then went on to say crap hours, minimum wage and scrambling to make ends meet can make that difficult to do which then leaves child to his own devices.

Furthermore we’re not zombies, not everyone is wired the same. Just look at Subsim, how many people tired of the things said here, got up and left never to be heard from again. Maybe they went hunting, started a garden, wrote a book, built a boat or went sailing, spent more time with family, got a better job, took up an outdoor hobby or travelled. There are other things to do besides counting how many thumbs up you get or gossip.



I agree though I think it is about hindsight, because there is no law or background check in the world that can reveal the future. Even questions regarding red flags I think can only be addressed by those closest to the killer after the fact. Other than that what people want I think is akin to the movie ‘Minority Report’


Since apparently you know everything, why don't you solve it. Perhaps run for office since you have it all figured out.

[Rockstar]

Since apparently you know everything, why don't you solve it. Perhaps run for office since you have it all figured out.

If you had read further I admitted that just like you and everyone else here I don’t have all the answers. But I’m not inclined to abandon the second amendment or create more redundant laws because someone didn’t have a daddy to teach him the difference between good and evil.

[Commander Wallace]

You have read further because I admitted that just like you everyone else here I don’t have all the answers.


Yes you did and then posted repeatedly as though you have it all figured it out. So, in your infinite wisdom, how would you address these issues ? I mean, you know more than we do. Apparently.

[Rockstar]

Yes you did and then posted repeatedly as though you have it all figured it out. So, in your infinite wisdom, how would you address these issues ? I mean, you know more than we do. Apparently.

:haha: You give me way too much credit.

[Dowly]

You kids forget, smoking and alcohol use are not in the constitution, The right to bear arms however is a right guaranteed by the constitution. You all need to figure out the difference between a right and a privilege before you start posting some of these "ideas".Sure, but that right is not absolute. You have plenty of regulations and laws concerning various aspects of firearm ownership and usage.

[Rockstar]

Sure, but that right is not absolute. You have plenty of regulations and laws concerning various aspects of firearm ownership and usage.

True, considering the reason why in 1971 political parties changed the age of responsibility from 21 to 18. Coupled with a seemingly increased bombardment of violence on social media, gaming and entertainment, the break-up of the family unit especially in poorer communities where a lower quality of life and delinquency run rampant. I think maybe we should up the age to 21 again to assist in the development of a higher level of maturity and responsibility before a firearm can be purchased. Who knows, maybe by then they will actually have a record that can be verified by the great comprehensive background check.

If some one wants to shoot guns before they’re 21 they can join the army.

[Commander Wallace]

If you had read further I admitted that just like you and everyone else here I don’t have all the answers. But I’m not inclined to abandon the second amendment or create more redundant laws because someone didn’t have a daddy to teach him the difference between good and evil.


To whom are you referring to ?

[August]

Doesn’t the 2nd Amendment say something about ‘well-regulated militias’?

I don’t know, a mentally ill teenager who wants to murder little kids doesn’t sound ‘well-regulated’ to me.


"Well-regulated" in the parlance of the time when the 2A was written does not mean what you think it does. It meant "proficient".


An updated read of the 2A would be:


A "proficient" militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

[MaDef]

Doesn’t the 2nd Amendment say something about ‘well-regulated militias’?

I don’t know, a mentally ill teenager who wants to murder little kids doesn’t sound ‘well-regulated’ to me.

Please read SCJ Scalia's brief in D.C vs Heller
In a nutshell: "the amendment protects a right to possess a firearm unconnected to military service and that individuals are free to use such weapons for “traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

[em2nought]

This is a result of who we've ignorantly handed the education of our children over to. If our children were firearms they've had so many weird features "installed" that they'd jam after a bullet or two. :hmmm:

[mapuc]

I can not decide what you will post in the future it's not my task to tell you what to post or not.

But I tell you after I saw this interview with this man from Texas late last night I became sad-So don't come here with your or that's terrible.

What he said-It's our God given right to own and bear arms.

Because you seem to worship your gun more than you worship life.

I'm sorry if someone may feel hurt by this post.

Markus

[Platapus]

I don't think we have a "gun problem" in the US


We have a "People choosing to kill people" problem in the US.


The first step in problem solving is to properly identify and bound the problem without presupposing a solution.


A "gun problem" presupposes a "gun solution". And that's not the problem.

But let's be honest. It is easier to focus on the gun than on the person. Solving mental health issues is a lot more difficult and uncomfortable to deal with.



For a politician, it is much easier to pass yet another gun law and then pat themselves on the back for "doing something".



And some voters fall for this.

[Skybird]

^ Its a cultural problem.

History and roots of own origin form present culture. Culture forms behaviour, definition of perception and expectation. If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail - and if you glorify violence in a culture, you tend to see violence as the only valid problem solving method. You know no other.

Its the past that brought us to where we are. American today culture is what was sown back then.

Its hard to run free from your shadow.

[mapuc]

What this man also said was that too few good men had their own gun. Good men would take out the bad guys he said.

Markus

[vienna]

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/vjz7fCssT2aV8ePq25wgCA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTcxNztjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/xLCtz7_gdqAM.2Z1km3Vdw--~B/aD0xNzkzO3c9MjQwMDthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/tcpalm-treasure-coast-newspapers/d45e094f4505292a1eb896f13109ec20





<O>

[Skybird]

What this man also said was that too few good men had their own gun. Good men would take out the bad guys he said.

Markus
Schooluniforms! Helmets for pupils! Every grammar school a fortress! Every child warrior a fighter for the good cause! Self defence - only for adults? I say No to unarmed children! Let them take out the bad guys themselves! That also helps to avoid court conflicts over military police violence! :yeah:

[mapuc]

The 18-year-old behind tragic school shooting in Uvalde could be an angry young man, but was not a monster, says mother.

The 18-year-old man who on Tuesday killed 19 children and 2 teachers at an elementary school in Texas is being taken in defense by his mother.

In an interview with American ABC News, Adriana Reyes says that her deceased son "was not a monster", but she also acknowledges that he could "be aggressive".

Markus

[MaDef]

being flippant is kind of counter productive is it not?

[VipertheSniper]

being flippant is kind of counter productive is it not?

about as productive as anything coming from 2A absolutists

[Skybird]

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/05/uvalde-guns-manufacturer-child-ad-01-1.jpeg


Sick.

Daniel Defence I understand is a weapon store/trader in the US, and obviously close to the NRA. The above was an advertisement posted one week before the amok run. They took the Tweet down after the incident, but the internet was faster, and does not forget and does not forgive.

[mapuc]

Found this article on BBC

Texas shooting: Where does US gun control go from here?


Old roadblocks in Congress

In the weeks after Sandy Hook, a majority of US senators supported passing legislation requiring expanded background checks for gun purchases. Because of the filibuster - a parliamentary procedure that requires at least 60 votes in the 100-seat Senate to pass most legislation - a simple majority was not enough, however.

Today, only a handful of the 50 Republican senators appear open to new gun legislation, suggesting any new efforts will meet a similar fate.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61591236

Markus

[Xerxes]

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/05/uvalde-guns-manufacturer-child-ad-01-1.jpeg


Sick.

Daniel Defence I understand is a weapon store/trader in the US, and obviously close to the NRA. The above was an advertisement posted one week before the amok run. They took the Tweet down after the incident, but the internet was faster, and does not forget and does not forgive.


I wouldn't call it sick, rather, it's unfortunate timing. Very unfortunate.

I see nothing wrong with teaching kids about guns, I mean, a lack of a strong father figure, and of a caring community is what usually births creeps like the shooter. Just my two cents.

[Armistead]

I would be fine if we raise the age to legally buy, own, or handle firearms to 30. No exceptions.

When I was 23 dating my first wife and she had a child. I stayed with her on weekends as she was 1.5 hr from me and lived rural. One night while there I heard something in the basement. I got her gun I knew was there, a mere 410 pump shotgun and loaded it with 1 shell she had in the drawer. Anyways, they came up the stairs and opened the door to the main part and I fired, pretty dark. It was enuf they ran. A large knife was found. One was arrested a county over at the hospital saying he had an accident. The other was later arrested. One had just recently gotten out of prison for 7 years for attempted murder and rape. I made sure she had proper gun then. I already owned several being an avid hunter.
I'm OK with some extra gun laws, tho I don't think they'll ever stop mass school shootings if someone is determined to do it. However, anyone that lives as an adult, has a home and family has the right to defend it. One thing I notice with most murderers today arrested is they usually have a long violent rap sheet often with illegal gun charges. I see the NY subway murderer turned himself in. He had 19 previous arrest, many violent and several illegal gun charges. His last bail was $1000. With so many violent people let go so easily I'll stand by the fight to own guns to defend your life, home and family.

[Rockstar]

I wouldn't call it sick, rather, it's unfortunate timing. Very unfortunate.

I see nothing wrong with teaching kids about guns, I mean, a lack of a strong father figure, and of a caring community is what usually births creeps like the shooter. Just my two cents.

Hell ya, Some of my fondest memories are range days with dad started when I think I was around 9 years old. That and during U.S. Army open house day getting to sight-in a 60mm mortar and use practice rounds to blow up a model village when I was in 10th grade. :D

[Jeff-Groves]

Years ago the Wife and I went on vacation to Maui.
My StepSon was 17 and stayed at home since he had School and a job.
There were no fire arms in the house.

While gone people invaded my home and my StepSon and a friend ended up in the hospital. Luckily just beaten and not worse!

So now days? I'd just as soon shoot you dead as to argue with you on my property! I have signs that say exactly that!

Not a single Gun is registered. And they are all legal and not stolen.

Hell. I have the tooling to build fire arms in my basement!

[Xerxes]

I would be fine if we raise the age to legally buy, own, or handle firearms to 30. No exceptions.


I think 21 for buying at the most. Regardless, if you're intent on breaking the law by murdering someone, a gun violation is the last thing you care about, especially if you're going on a murderous rampage.


As far as handling, that's too far, you'll get every pa who wants to take his son shooting arrested. That's IF you can enforce it. Again, if someone wants to go on a murderous rampage, they don't give a damn about any laws.
It would be a hindrance, and ineffectual, plus the New York subway shooter was in his 60s, proving that age has no bearing on the issue.


What we need is to bring back asylums, treat the mentally ill, encourage stronger communities and two-parent marriages, as well as beefing up school security in terms of doors and the like.

[Skybird]

I wouldn't call it sick, rather, it's unfortunate timing. Very unfortunate.

I see nothing wrong with teaching kids about guns, I mean, a lack of a strong father figure, and of a caring community is what usually births creeps like the shooter. Just my two cents.
That young age. An AR.

SICK.
Whats next? Hand grenades for tenth birthday to bring the kids on the right path?

[Jeff-Groves]

I fear the people driving while playing on the damned phones more then a crazy with a Gun!

I actually retired since my Old Job had me on the road all the time.
I have Body Armour for the Shooters. So it's not the places I had to work and the crazy people there. It's Mr and Mrs play on the damned phones while driving!

You'd not believe the number of bodies I've seen on the road!

[Rockstar]

https://juliehancoaching.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/LIGHTEN-UP..png

[Xerxes]

That young age. An AR.

SICK.
Whats next? Hand grenades for tenth birthday to bring the kids on the right path?


Obviously the child wouldn't posses or own it. I'd be more scared if the child had a handgun. Armalite Rifle or Avtomat Kalashnikova, proper gun safety and storage rules still apply. It's better to teach a child to respect firearms for what they are, then have lil johnny find grandma's gun and not know what it is. My father reared me on a BB gun, and eventually, he took me shooting. Any self respecting gun owner wouldn't give a 5-year old anything he couldn't handle, that's a given.



Also, hand grenades are for weaklings, I was gonna get timmy a pocket nuke, but never mind.

[Ostfriese]

Hell ya, Some of my fondest memories are range days with dad started when I think I was around 9 years old. That and during U.S. Army open house day getting to sight-in a 60mm mortar and use practice rounds to blow up a model village when I was in 10th grade. :D


But you didn't need to buy a gun for that.

[em2nought]

Throwing the book at criminals and shipping them off to China to serve their sentences would do wonders to decrease criminal acts.

[Ostfriese]

Throwing the book at criminals and shipping them off to China to serve their sentences would do wonders to decrease criminal acts.


Not even capital punishment does have that effect.



The solution is prevention - prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place, by giving them a good education, perspectives and a purpose.

[Skybird]

A cultural problemn. A culture of violence, and people, get accustomed to it form childhood on.

Sweden and Switzerland have high rates of gun ownership, too. Nobody mentions their weekly school shooting events. Nor their high rate of gun-violence. Australia tightened its laws drastically some years ago - and their gun violence rates took a dive. Sorry, or it was Canada, maybe I mix it up, but I think it was Australia.

Nothing wrong in taking the junior age 15 or so and train him on the range with an air rifle, and some years later on that farm a small callibre hunting rifle, and like Neal said, at even higher age - 28, 30 or so - a pistol or whatever for self defence. I once was strictly against guns, but I have u-turned on that extreme position many years ago already,anmd if laws would allow me in germany I would own one myself. I am not against owning guns. But i am against the excessive, almost religious glorification cult around guns. And AR rifles in the hands of ten year olds. That is a no-go, that is NEVER NO MATTER. That is obscene. I have no tolerance for this abuse. Yopu form not just one midn by this, but youj form a whole national mentality, cultural public climate.

When Trump dripped his verbal poison on the NRA convention recently, you can bet that no guns were allowed, not even Swiss pocket knifes. So much for the double standards. And the same Texas senator demanding better mental checks for gun owners has cut funding for according health care I read and funnelled it into border fences or somethign related to that. Double talk. Last but not least, for the industry the second ammendment plays no role here, they may pose as saints and defenders of liberty and all that paroles and hiogwash but what they really are is: greedy for ever more profits. To hell with dead children, who cares? To hell with shooting incidents, who cares? Lets make moneymoneymoney. That and only that it is about.

In the end what it comes down to is a weapon fetish for the sake of the weapon itself, a cult of firearms, a culture born from violence, breeding ever more violence and thus having nothing else to expect from the future than violence. You get the hell from it that you have made yourself. You reap what you sow. Enjoy.



https://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/entsetzen_ts/28378316/3-format1007.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1D4R2q4Xmw

[Skybird]

The other side of the arguments:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236


One of the reasons why I am no more strictly anti-gun as I was many years ago.

[Skybird]

Der Spiegel, mid-February this year (2022):

(...)
As if that weren't bad enough, U.S. firearms manufacturer WEE 1 Tactical is now offering a semi-automatic rifle designed specifically for children, modeled after the AR-15.

The JR-15 will "help adults safely introduce children to the shooting sports," according to promotional copy from the company. It has now been unveiled at the "Shot Show 2022" in Las Vegas. At the gun show, an employee spoke of a rifle designed specifically for young shooters.

It "looks, feels and functions just like mom and dad's rifle," the company advertises the weapon. Compared to the standard AR-15 model, however, the JR-15 is significantly smaller and lighter, costing $389. For boys, the company advertises it with a pirate skull with a mohawk. Girls are said to be appealed by a skull with blond highlights and a pink pacifier in its mouth.

Activists against gun violence strongly condemned the advertising campaign for the children's rifle. "At first glance, this seems like a grotesque joke. At second glance, it's just grotesque," said Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center.

The Newtown Action Alliance, a group that also advocates for firearms restriction, accused the gun industry of being "willing to do anything to continue making profits."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (http://www.DeepL.com/Translator) (free version)

Thats not just disgusting anymore - that is rightout perverse. All sanity went out of the window long time ago. If you will this, you have no argument anymore against mortar training in kindergardens, and constructing hand grenades in chemistry classes at school. You live like you train, right?

[Commander Wallace]

When I was 23 dating my first wife and she had a child. I stayed with her on weekends as she was 1.5 hr from me and lived rural. One night while there I heard something in the basement. I got her gun I knew was there, a mere 410 pump shotgun and loaded it with 1 shell she had in the drawer. Anyways, they came up the stairs and opened the door to the main part and I fired, pretty dark. It was enuf they ran. A large knife was found. One was arrested a county over at the hospital saying he had an accident. The other was later arrested. One had just recently gotten out of prison for 7 years for attempted murder and rape. I made sure she had proper gun then. I already owned several being an avid hunter.
I'm OK with some extra gun laws, tho I don't think they'll ever stop mass school shootings if someone is determined to do it. However, anyone that lives as an adult, has a home and family has the right to defend it. One thing I notice with most murderers today arrested is they usually have a long violent rap sheet often with illegal gun charges. I see the NY subway murderer turned himself in. He had 19 previous arrest, many violent and several illegal gun charges. His last bail was $1000. With so many violent people let go so easily I'll stand by the fight to own guns to defend your life, home and family.

I had looked at weapons for my lady and we settled on a high end .357 magnum revolver-6 shot. I also purchased speed loaders. For control-ability, The weapon is loaded with .38 caliber ammunition rated at plus p pressures and they are also hollow point bullets. There are also other weapons here, mostly of the automatic variety. We also have our license to carry weapons as well and have for some time.

I have had a good number of conversations with police officers I deal with, a few of whom I went to high school with. For the most part, they tend to agree that drugs are fueling most crime. People steal to buy drugs, people rob to buy drugs, people break into homes to find money to buy drugs, people are caught selling drugs, etc....

One State Police officer told me during a conversation that there are video games that feature 1st person " shooting " games. He told me that he and fellow police officers are gravely concerned that younger kids, perhaps hyped up on illicit drugs, are being de-sensitized to violence from playing these " games.". They have told me they wouldn't allow their own kids to have those games.

Years ago, I was friendly with a young woman I met who was from the U.K. In trying to select a movie for viewing after dinner, she made an observation. She innocently asked why the vast majority of our movies are so violent and dark. She further asked why there is so much gratuitous violence that lends nothing to the movie itself. Until then, I had never given movies much thought. I agreed with her. My own movie viewing was and remains for the most part, comedies, history and military documentaries and anything dealing with science / space exploration. I also tend to watch the odd Football and Hockey game. :D I still look at movies today from the same perspective she gave me.

Are these aggravating factors in gun violence ? In my honest opinion, most likely. Are there other aggravating factors ? Probably. I don't think anyone can be certain of why this is happening. This may well be an example of gun culture that people from different countries are pointing to what is becoming an ever increasing violent society.

In my own family, growing up, we were taught early on to have respect for other people and their things and to have respect for life and animals, in general. My own mum and dad had said to me and my siblings, " don't ever shame our family name." We also had respect for our teachers and administrators, in school. Do other kids have this ? In many regards, sadly no. Is this a factor in gun violence ? Only you can decide that for yourself.

[mapuc]

Due to the roadblocks in the Congress and Senate-Nothing will happen.

Big words was spoken by Obama and others after the Sandy incident...Nothing happens.

Could it be that Platapus is correct your politicians are only saying what YOU wanna hear- And after this politician has been re-elected this person seems to forget what they promised.

Since People seems to be more interested in their weapon and their politician than their love one-Nothing will change.

Markus

[Ostfriese]

He told me that he and fellow police officers are gravely concerned that younger kids, perhaps hyped up on illicit drugs, are being de-sensitized to violence from playing these " games.". They have told me they wouldn't allow their own kids to have those games.



Why are excessive gun violence and mass shootings an American-only problem then? Kids play the same video games worldwide, but among the first world nations the US stand alone, experiencing more mass shootings in a single year than the entire rest of these nations expierences in decades.

[Xerxes]

Not even capital punishment does have that effect.



The solution is prevention - prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place, by giving them a good education, perspectives and a purpose.




Law isn't intended to be preventative, it's inherently reactive. It just happens that strict punishment has a slight deterrent property. If you want to prevent law-abiding citizens from defending themselves, be my guest. As I have said, if a man wants to go on a murderous rampage, he doesn't give a damn about whatever laws you throw at him.

[Xerxes]

A cultural problemn. A culture of violence, and people, get accustomed to it form childhood on.

Sweden and Switzerland have high rates of gun ownership, too. Nobody mentions their weekly school shooting events. Nor their high rate of gun-violence. Australia tightened its laws drastically some years ago - and their gun violence rates took a dive. Sorry, or it was Canada, maybe I mix it up, but I think it was Australia.

Nothing wrong in taking the junior age 15 or so and train him on the range with an air rifle, and some years later on that farm a small callibre hunting rifle, and like Neal said, at even higher age - 28, 30 or so - a pistol or whatever for self defence. I once was strictly against guns, but I have u-turned on that extreme position many years ago already,anmd if laws would allow me in germany I would own one myself. I am not against owning guns. But i am against the excessive, almost religious glorification cult around guns. And AR rifles in the hands of ten year olds. That is a no-go, that is NEVER NO MATTER. That is obscene. I have no tolerance for this abuse. Yopu form not just one midn by this, but youj form a whole national mentality, cultural public climate.

When Trump dripped his verbal poison on the NRA convention recently, you can bet that no guns were allowed, not even Swiss pocket knifes. So much for the double standards. And the same Texas senator demanding better mental checks for gun owners has cut funding for according health care I read and funnelled it into border fences or somethign related to that. Double talk. Last but not least, for the industry the second ammendment plays no role here, they may pose as saints and defenders of liberty and all that paroles and hiogwash but what they really are is: greedy for ever more profits. To hell with dead children, who cares? To hell with shooting incidents, who cares? Lets make moneymoneymoney. That and only that it is about.

In the end what it comes down to is a weapon fetish for the sake of the weapon itself, a cult of firearms, a culture born from violence, breeding ever more violence and thus having nothing else to expect from the future than violence. You get the hell from it that you have made yourself. You reap what you sow. Enjoy.


Damn. Australia had low gun violence rates to begin with, when they banned guns, the numbers barely changed. We never mention any of the south american countries with mass killings, or the middle eastern countries with mass killings.



I want to have a civil conversation here, you don't need to be so rude, chill.

[Commander Wallace]

Why are excessive gun violence and mass shootings an American-only problem then? Kids play the same video games worldwide, but among the first world nations the US stand alone, experiencing more mass shootings in a single year than the entire rest of these nations expierences in decades.


If we knew that, we wouldn't be debating this topic here and would have addressed it long ago.. I think it's a conglomeration of the factors and the examples I listed and probably more. These may be some of those factors or the very trigger that has brought about these events. The question is, are the kids you mention using illicit drugs in conjunction with those games. Do those same kids have the wherewithal to differentiate between a video game and reality ?

We just don't know.

I would like to know how other countries deal with certain issues. Perhaps how other countries do things may have applications here in the U.S and work better than what we are doing.

[Xerxes]

Der Spiegel, mid-February this year (2022):

(...)
As if that weren't bad enough, U.S. firearms manufacturer WEE 1 Tactical is now offering a semi-automatic rifle designed specifically for children, modeled after the AR-15.

The JR-15 will "help adults safely introduce children to the shooting sports," according to promotional copy from the company. It has now been unveiled at the "Shot Show 2022" in Las Vegas. At the gun show, an employee spoke of a rifle designed specifically for young shooters.

It "looks, feels and functions just like mom and dad's rifle," the company advertises the weapon. Compared to the standard AR-15 model, however, the JR-15 is significantly smaller and lighter, costing $389. For boys, the company advertises it with a pirate skull with a mohawk. Girls are said to be appealed by a skull with blond highlights and a pink pacifier in its mouth.

Activists against gun violence strongly condemned the advertising campaign for the children's rifle. "At first glance, this seems like a grotesque joke. At second glance, it's just grotesque," said Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center.

The Newtown Action Alliance, a group that also advocates for firearms restriction, accused the gun industry of being "willing to do anything to continue making profits."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (http://www.DeepL.com/Translator) (free version)

Thats not just disgusting anymore - that is rightout perverse. All sanity went out of the window long time ago. If you will this, you have no argument anymore against mortar training in kindergardens, and constructing hand grenades in chemistry classes at school. You live like you train, right?


Your slippery slope arguments are unfounded and perverse. The JR-15 is chambered in 22lr, a round so small, it can barely kill a squirrel. There's no difference between that and a crickett, besides cosmetics. I don't see anyone protesting the crickett.



You seem convinced that letting a child even TOUCH a gun, will immediately turn them into a murderous psycho. You also seem convinced that the NRA is some massive, powerful force. The NRA is dying, and has been dying. Most gun owners aren't members, because the NRA doesn't stand for gun rights, and is corrupt as hell.


Your arguments are an insult to every responsible gun-owner in america, and you need to stop while you're ahead.
I agree that we have gun issues, but nobody wants to take the steps to punish those who commit crimes, or to lock up the insane.

We had almost no school shootings in the 1950s, and tons of kids had guns, and the gun culture was strong. What was different?

We also have lower murder rates than other countries, that needs to be taken into consideration.



Here are some stats for you to mull over:



https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country

https://earlywarningproject.ushmm.org/ranking-of-all-countries
https://www.statista.com/statistics/811541/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-state/
https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2022/05/debunking-every-major-mass-shooting-myth/

https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/aug/05/viral-tweet-about-mass-shootings-country-it-needs-/
https://rockinst.org/gun-violence/mass-shooting-factsheet/


Remember that only per-capita stats can apply, seeing as populations vary.
In the end, both sides need to shut up, and let people mourn the losses, instead of taking cheap shots at each other.
Please do us the courtesy of being civil, and stop trampling on the victims' bodies.

[Skybird]

I dont get little children and AR guns, rifles of any kind, firearms, together.



C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N.


Thats why.


Its not about them turning into murderous psychopaths, its about fostering a culture of weapons and spreading a religion of weapons that focusses on weapons - and then wonders why the result is a culture that has bigger problems with non-violent problem-solving and has more school shootings and more amok runs and more drastic violent crime and more kills from firearms than any other civilised Western country including Japan, Korea, and the likes.



When there are more weapons in a country per head than there are citizen or in many civil war countries, (1.2 or 1.4 firearms per American head), then there is a message in that.


A culture of violence and weapon fetishism will give birth no nothign else than always more weapons, violence, and fixiation on both, and evertyhing else in that cutlure - media, arts, individual focus - will submit to that. Accordingly even prisons become an ordinary business industry, and prisoners get produced and keep the industry economically healthy. Its a different symptomn - but of the one and the same great complex of this topic: violence and weapons.



And thats what we see, and thats what already Michale Moore so very correctly analysed back then. A climate of fear that elads tro a fixiationto get security by endlessly repeatign the emdia loops and getting security by weapons. Weapons onyl cure the imminent symptom, not the underlaying cause of excessive violence and crime rates.



Ten year old with AR rifles, even just normal pistols. Sorry, that is perverse, obscene, and the only thing rude here is the image of a ten year old with these weapons in his hands. Because at that age nobody should hold fnctional firerarms like that, but play with toy cvars, puppets, or with the kids on the playground.


C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N.


Not little adults in tiny bodies.


But okay, its your cult of frequent, regular human sacrificing. Enjoy. The Aztecs sacrificed their prisoners, you sacrifice your own beloved ones. Everyone to his liking. One reaps what one sows.

[Rockstar]

Every day you murder children C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N. Making them your slaves to mine precious rare earth minerals that contribute to your own selfish comfort and lifestyles of convenience, electric cars, and computers to post stupid meme. Any bets more have died by your hand than by that kid in Texas?

No, I’m saying one is any better or worse than the other. Just an attempt to suggest you get off your high horse.

[Rockstar]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1602E/production/_89985109_germangun.jpg

The incident has nonetheless caused alarm among many people commenting online. "This sort of thing must be banned! Children need peace, and toys to play with, not weapons," writes one Twitter user. But another thinks any anger towards the military is misplaced: "Neither the army nor the defence ministry are responsible for keeping children away from the military and weapons. The parents are."

Germany's defence minister, Ursula von der Leyen, has now intervened, announcing there will be no more hands-on gun displays at all during such events. "Despite clear guidelines, this regrettable mistake occurred," she said.

Meanwhile the peace loving Germans turn a blind eye seeing no problem selling arms to someone else’s children.

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/RuleOfLaw/ArmsTransfers/TerreHommesKindernothilfe.pdf

[Skybird]

Every day you murder children C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N. Making them your slaves to mine precious rare earth minerals that contribute to your own selfish comfort and lifestyles of convenience, electric cars, and computers to post stupid meme. Any bets more have died by your hand than by that kid in Texas?

No, I’m saying one is any better or worse than the other. Just an attempt to suggest you get off your high horse.
You dont get it, you are completely off track.

Both your examples should not be.

But the one you accept as being despicable, the other not. But I dont accept either of them, to me BOTH stories they tell are unacceptable.

Its sick if adult people think it is normal that a ten year old or even less, what do I know, gets a semiautomatic AR rifle as if that were just another teddybear to play with. And as explained before,. reatedly, this way you create the cultral heritage yourself that you get haunted by. A culture gets created this way, and gets kept alive, that must reap what it has sown.

Okay, Im out here. Of course I knew that nothing was to be gained here, but that advert with that little boy really had the kettle whisteling for me. Its perverse, and utmost cynical.

[Xerxes]

I dont get little children and AR guns, rifles of any kind, firearms, together.



C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N.


Thats why.


Its not about them turning into murderous psychopaths, its about fostering a culture of weapons and spreading a religion of weapons that focusses on weapons - and then wonders why the result is a culture that has bigger problems with non-violent problem-solving and has more school shootings and more amok runs and more drastic violent crime and more kills from firearms than any other civilised Western country including Japan, Korea, and the likes.



When there are more weapons in a country per head than there are citizen or in many civil war countries, (1.2 or 1.4 firearms per American head), then there is a message in that.


A culture of violence and weapon fetishism will give birth no nothign else than always more weapons, violence, and fixiation on both, and evertyhing else in that cutlure - media, arts, individual focus - will submit to that. Accordingly even prisons become an ordinary business industry, and prisoners get produced and keep the industry economically healthy. Its a different symptomn - but of the one and the same great complex of this topic: violence and weapons.



And thats what we see, and thats what already Michale Moore so very correctly analysed back then. A climate of fear that elads tro a fixiationto get security by endlessly repeatign the emdia loops and getting security by weapons. Weapons onyl cure the imminent symptom, not the underlaying cause of excessive violence and crime rates.



Ten year old with AR rifles, even just normal pistols. Sorry, that is perverse, obscene, and the only thing rude here is the image of a ten year old with these weapons in his hands. Because at that age nobody should hold fnctional firerarms like that, but play with toy cvars, puppets, or with the kids on the playground.


C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N.


Not little adults in tiny bodies.


But okay, its your cult of frequent, regular human sacrificing. Enjoy. The Aztecs sacrificed their prisoners, you sacrifice your own beloved ones. Everyone to his liking. One reaps what one sows.


I'll point something out: our country also has major drug issues, with tons of OD deaths every year, more ODs than gun deaths.



They're both issues, and both need to be resolved. The issue is, I don't see anyone saying that we have a drug culture. Get off your high horse, and propose real ideas to fix the problems. Ideas that work.

[Rockstar]

Hey if denial and thinking Trump and the NRA have anything do to with this helps you sleep better at night go for it.


Here’s the first story I read that IMO begins asking the good and pertinent questions.

It’s not Trump, the NRA I doubt the kid even knew how to spell Trump let alone ever listen to any his political speeches. It’s cause and effect, quality of life, strength of family bonds, outside influences within the immediate sphere, it starts in the home. There needs to be a daddy who knows the difference between right and wrong, responsible and irresponsible behavior and can teach his children. Instead of video games and tiktok

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/obsession-with-guns-dysfunctional-families-many-parallels-exist-between-parkland-and-uvalde-shooters/ar-AAXOS4h


This picture right here IMO sums up the only world Salvador Ramos ever knew.

https://i0.wp.com/lopezdoriga.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/salvador-ramos-tiroteo-texas-masacre-escuela.jpg?fit=800%2C534&ssl=1&is-pending-load=1

[Rockstar]

Not a bad idea.

Jon Voight, Outspoken GOP Supporter, Calls For ‘Proper Qualifications for Gun Ownership’ After Uvalde Shooting

https://variety.com/2022/politics/news/jon-voight-gun-control-1235280563/

So far I’m agreeable too the following

1. To purchase from FFL, mandatory firearm safety and practical shooting course for all types of firearms. Fees paid by applicant.

2. Raise purchase age to 21

3. One other thing, display responsibility. Must have a job and make a living wage and be owner or lessee of their own domicile. Should be relatively easy for someone to do before they reach 21.

Bums, delinquents, ne'er-do-wells, drug addicts, convicts and children need not apply.

[mapuc]

^ I would following to his list

4. The buyer has to take a psychological test-paid by the applicant.
Markus

[Xerxes]

Not a bad idea.

Jon Voight, Outspoken GOP Supporter, Calls For ‘Proper Qualifications for Gun Ownership’ After Uvalde Shooting

https://variety.com/2022/politics/news/jon-voight-gun-control-1235280563/

So far I’m agreeable too the following

1. To purchase from FFL, mandatory firearm safety and practical shooting course for all types of firearms. Fees paid by applicant.

2. Raise purchase age to 21

3. One other thing, display responsibility. Must have a job and make a living wage and be owner or lessee of their own domicile. Should be relatively easy for someone to do before they reach 21.

Bums, delinquents, ne'er-do-wells, drug addicts, convicts and children need not apply.

I agree with 21 for long arms, as long as the voting age gets raised as well ;)

On a serious note, the firearm safety course should be a once every 5 years type of thing. Either that, or get a CCL. Just some thoughts. It should also be a crime to have a gun not stored properly if you have a mentally ill person in the house. (Mentally ill would have to be via a court of law/county clerk, with multiple specialists concurring)

As i’ve said, I don’t think age requirements would help, backdoor gun deals still happen, and nuts don’t care about gun laws. I personally think the real solution is better mental care, and locking nuts up, as well as helping those who are suicidal.

[Xerxes]

^ I would following to his list

4. The buyer has to take a psychological test-paid by the applicant.
Markus

I disagree, too onerous and subjective.

[mapuc]

Reading all the answer from you my American friends tells me that you want some type of regulation-I hope you are on your trusted politician-Because it's them who has the last word in this.

Markus

[Buddahaid]

Not a bad idea.

Jon Voight, Outspoken GOP Supporter, Calls For ‘Proper Qualifications for Gun Ownership’ After Uvalde Shooting

https://variety.com/2022/politics/news/jon-voight-gun-control-1235280563/

So far I’m agreeable too the following

1. To purchase from FFL, mandatory firearm safety and practical shooting course for all types of firearms. Fees paid by applicant.

2. Raise purchase age to 21

3. One other thing, display responsibility. Must have a job and make a living wage and be owner or lessee of their own domicile. Should be relatively easy for someone to do before they reach 21.

Bums, delinquents, ne'er-do-wells, drug addicts, convicts and children need not apply.

I won't argue with that but I think those requirments will never get through Congress and even if they did the Supreme Court would kill it.

[mapuc]

I won't argue with that but I think those requirments will never get through Congress and even if they did the Supreme Court would kill it.

You want changes in your gun laws. as I said above your comment-Put pressure on your trusted politician - Demand a change.

Markus

[Buddahaid]

You want changes in your gun laws. as I said above your comment-Put pressure on your trusted politician - Demand a change.

Markus

There is already a popular majority supporting changes which just shows how far that sentiment goes. The will of the people is second to the will of powerfull influence.

[mapuc]

There is already a popular majority supporting changes which just shows how far that sentiment goes. The will of the people is second to the will of powerfull influence.

You have a powerful weapon and you don't know about it-Your right to say what's on your mind in the voting bot.

Vote for those who are for changes and not the one you use to put your vote on. I know that people/voters are locked-on their party and politician.

Markus

[August]

There is already a popular majority supporting changes which just shows how far that sentiment goes. The will of the people is second to the will of powerfull influence.


I think you vastly overrate the influence of a relatively small industry. According to the article I just read gun and ammo manufacturers only made 17 billion in 2018, most of that money coming from the defense department sales to foreign governments. Gun stores that year drew in another 11 billion. Small potatoes as far as "powerful influences" go.

[Rockstar]

I won't argue with that but I think those requirments will never get through Congress and even if they did the Supreme Court would kill it.


Right now I believe the age to purchase a handgun from a FFL is 21. Shouldn’t be too hard to bump up the age for long guns and make it stick.

Right now the the only ones offering ideas IMO are those with big money and influence. Maybe for once us lowly “we the people” will get off our collective arses and respectfully offer them our ideas of what policy should be for once.

[MaDef]

Right now I believe the age to purchase a handgun from a FFL is 21. Shouldn’t be too hard to bump up the age for long guns and make it stick. If you want my support for that, then the age of majority should be raised accordingly, that includes joining the military, voting, and entering legally binding contracts, etc.

[Xerxes]

If you want my support for that, then the age of majority should be raised accordingly, that includes joining the military, voting, and entering legally binding contracts, etc.


I agree. Why block folks from buying a gun at 18, when they can just join the military and use even more dangerous munitions.

[Xerxes]

Right now I believe the age to purchase a handgun from a FFL is 21. Shouldn’t be too hard to bump up the age for long guns and make it stick.

Right now the the only ones offering ideas IMO are those with big money and influence. Maybe for once us lowly “we the people” will get off our collective arses and respectfully offer them our ideas of what policy should be for once.


Yeah, we need to make the politicians listen for once.

I disagree with higher ages, that makes no difference, as I have said, if they can't buy one legally, they'll steal or buy a stolen one. Plus, some shooters have been over 21.

[Buddahaid]

I agree. Why block folks from buying a gun at 18, when they can just join the military and use even more dangerous munitions.

True, but in the military there is dicipline, training and consequences.

[Rockstar]

If you want my support for that, then the age of majority should be raised accordingly, that includes joining the military, voting, and entering legally binding contracts, etc.

If I’m not mistaken the voting age was lowered from 21 to 18 in 1971 because the U.S. was drafting 18 year olds and many thought they should at least be able to vote. Which incidentally Democrats controlled both houses then.

The speedy action occurred in response to a 5-4 decision in 1970 by U.S. Supreme Court that struck down a law aimed at accomplishing the same result. Justice Hugo Black wrote in the majority opinion: “I would hold that Congress has exceeded its powers in attempting to lower the voting age in state and local elections.”

On June 22, 1970, in signing the age-lowering law, Nixon had voiced “misgivings” about its constitutionality. He directed Attorney General John Mitchell “to cooperate fully in expediting a swift court test of the constitutionality of the 18-year-old provision.”

The Vietnam War served as a catalyst for action; young men who were ineligible to vote were being drafted without a direct vote over the politicians who sent them to war. “Old enough to fight, old enough to vote,” the law’s proponents argued.

The slogan was first heard during World War II, when President Franklin D. Roosevelt lowered the military draft age to 18. (another democrat :D)



As an independent I think an 18 year old should still be allowed to vote and continue to be allowed to volunteer to defend their country. Like Buddahaid alluded to there is everything what a young man or women requires in the armed forces of the United States, 3 hots and a cot, guidance, purpose, discipline, consequences, reward. Lord knows it helped me, plus I didn’t purchase my first firearm until I was 24. It’s not like everyone has to buy one as soon as they turn 18.

I also think there is nothing wrong with an able 18 year old man or woman to lawfully enter into legal binding contracts. That is part of learning responsibility.

Hopefully by the time a young man or women turns twenty one they will have enough REAL life experiences and hopefully gain an appreciation for life. And if they choose to purchase a firearm they will at least have a record for the great god of comprehensive background checks to reveal if they qualify or not to purchase a firearm. I could be wrong but I think background checks on 18 year olds are pointless because I think their juvenile criminal records are sealed.

I only offer theses ideas because it seems a few parents can’t raise their children right.

My only question: do you think the ideas are reasonable?

Funny everything I said reminds me of movie Starship Troopers, carry on citizen :D

[Xerxes]

True, but in the military there is dicipline, training and consequences.


Most gun owners have discipline and training. Every ND or illicit action with a gun has consequences.

[Ostfriese]

Most gun owners have discipline [...]


So do most video game players, yet the video games have been pushed to the block.



At least nobody has been stupid enough to follow Ted Cruz' "unlocked back door" BS...

[Ostfriese]

I won't argue with that but I think those requirments will never get through Congress and even if they did the Supreme Court would kill it.


But why? From my non-American perspective Rockstar's suggestion is one that would find a broad majority among the Americans, and it even sounds reasonable from my European point of view.

[August]

Not a bad idea.

Jon Voight, Outspoken GOP Supporter, Calls For ‘Proper Qualifications for Gun Ownership’ After Uvalde Shooting

https://variety.com/2022/politics/news/jon-voight-gun-control-1235280563/

So far I’m agreeable too the following

1. To purchase from FFL, mandatory firearm safety and practical shooting course for all types of firearms. Fees paid by applicant.

2. Raise purchase age to 21

3. One other thing, display responsibility. Must have a job and make a living wage and be owner or lessee of their own domicile. Should be relatively easy for someone to do before they reach 21.

Bums, delinquents, ne'er-do-wells, drug addicts, convicts and children need not apply.




What happens if somebody decides that you are a bum or a ne'er-do-well?

[Ostfriese]

What happens if somebody decides that you are a bum or a ne'er-do-well?


Then you can't buy a gun.

[Buddahaid]

Most gun owners have discipline and training. Every ND or illicit action with a gun has consequences.

Like dead children. Most in this case is nowhere near enough.

[MaDef]

As an independent I think an 18 year old should still be allowed to vote and continue to be allowed to volunteer to defend their country.

My only question: do you think the ideas are reasonable?


Then they should also be allowed to "bear arms" as per the Constitution. If you are going to give them the responsibilities of an adult, they should then also have the same rights.

Criminal Background checks for initial purchase is fine, maybe even a short "waiting period" from initial purchase to possession would be ok. The others have to many loopholes or aren't really feasible here in the real world.

Something to keep in mind, a lot of firearm purchases are generated in the secondary (used market), these people are either collectors (where the firearm becomes a Safe Queen), or used by competition shooters who require multiple firearms in different calibers for different types of matches.

[Xerxes]

Then they should also be allowed to "bear arms" as per the Constitution. If you are going to give them the responsibilities of an adult, they should then also have the same rights.

Criminal Background checks for initial purchase is fine, maybe even a short "waiting period" from initial purchase to possession would be ok. The others have to many loopholes or aren't really feasible here in the real world.

Something to keep in mind, a lot of firearm purchases are generated in the secondary (used market), these people are either collectors (where the firearm becomes a Safe Queen), or used by competition shooters who require multiple firearms in different calibers for different types of matches.


I disagree with a waiting period, there have been several cases where women had abusive partners, and they couldn't get a gun to defend themselves, and were beat or killed.



Either that, or a very short period.


A note on the safe queen stuff, my father bought a M1A from a retired cop a few years back, and it's a safe princess, the real queen is a M1 Carbine that he got from CMP.

[MaDef]

I'm not a big fan of waiting periods either, but I think an exception could be made in those cases, all the person would have to do is bring in a copy of the TRO and the waiting period could be waived.

[Xerxes]

I'm not a big fan of waiting periods either, but I think an exception could be made in those cases, all the person would have to do is bring in a copy of the TRO and the waiting period could be waived.


Yeah, as long as they can get a TRO in time. Didn't think of that one.

[Bubblehead1980]

What happens if somebody decides that you are a bum or a ne'er-do-well?


Thanks for calling this out, I was about to, but you beat me to it.

[Cybermat47]

Most gun owners have discipline and training. Every ND or illicit action with a gun has consequences.

What does 'ND' stand for here?

If it's 'neurodivergent', I'm autistic and I've been properly trained in how to handle a firearm and used one on multiple occasions. Never had any urge to go and shoot up a school.

I think the best solution is to have a gun license test - like we have for cars, aircraft, boats, working with minors, etc. etc. - that anyone can apply for and pass if they prove to be responsible and sane. Anyone who doesn't pass can then pursue legal action against the government if they feel they were discriminated against for their political beliefs, ethnicity, etc.

[MaDef]

ND stands for negligent discharge which usually occurs when a loaded firearm is mishandled.

I think the best solution is to have a gun license test - like we have for cars, aircraft, boats, working with minors, etc. etc. - that anyone can apply for and pass if they prove to be responsible and sane. Anyone who doesn't pass can then pursue legal action against the government if they feel they were discriminated against for their political beliefs, ethnicity, etc. In the state I currently reside in, a safety certificate is required before buying a weapon, and is only good for 5 years and I am completely against this as it is a permit, and I should not have to acquire a permit to exercise a right granted by the Constitution.

[Armistead]

What does 'ND' stand for here?

If it's 'neurodivergent', I'm autistic and I've been properly trained in how to handle a firearm and used one on multiple occasions. Never had any urge to go and shoot up a school.

I think the best solution is to have a gun license test - like we have for cars, aircraft, boats, working with minors, etc. etc. - that anyone can apply for and pass if they prove to be responsible and sane. Anyone who doesn't pass can then pursue legal action against the government if they feel they were discriminated against for their political beliefs, ethnicity, etc.

Imagine having to prove your responsible and sane to a govt entity or psychologist that would likely hold bias against against you having a gun regardless. Like most things the govt would turn it into a big money making venture. In many strict Dem states the cost for application, fingerprinting, license, etc can already go over a $1000 which is one reason people just buy off the street, it's the only way they can afford to have a gun. 99% of the mentally ill don't go around shooting people. Looking at several recent mass shootings most had long rap sheets of violent charges and usually several illegal gun charges. Take the Sacramento shooters, two suspects with a long violent history that only served half of their time thanks to Cali voting in laws that made it easier for felons to get out of jail.

[Xerxes]

ND stands for negligent discharge which usually occurs when a loaded firearm is mishandled.

In the state I currently reside in, a safety certificate is required before buying a weapon, and is only good for 5 years and I am completely against this as it is a permit, and I should not have to acquire a permit to exercise a right granted by the Constitution.


North Carolina has a pistol purchase permit, and not only is it onerous, but you used to have to get character witnesses, and if the witnesses failed a background check, you'd be denied your permit.


Most folks get a CCL, so they can forgo the whole process.

[Buddahaid]

https://constitutioncenter.org/images/uploads/news/CNN_Aug_11.pdf

I would ask how does one determine well disciplined now?

[Xerxes]

https://constitutioncenter.org/images/uploads/news/CNN_Aug_11.pdf

I would ask how does one determine well disciplined now?


Efficacy in combat and drills, they can listen to superiors.



Also, militias would also form privately, and offer their service in times of war.

[Buddahaid]

Efficacy in combat and drills, they can listen to superiors.



Also, militias would also form privately, and offer their service in times of war.

For the militia that applies but how is that measured with private ownership? Also, the PDF I posted indicates the the state creates the militia but isn't responsible for it's readiness. I'm not taking a position here, just throwing it out for discussion.

[Ostfriese]

Also, militias would also form privately, and offer their service in times of war.


Aka mercenaries.

[Skybird]

Militias subordinate to the command of POTUS. Else they are just a gang of armed dudes. Declaring oneself a militia alone is not enough to qualify as one. Some legal experts even argue a militia must get called up by POTUS.

[Buddahaid]

Militias subordinate to the command of POTUS. Else they are just a gang of armed dudes. Declaring oneself a militia alone is not enough to qualify as one. Some legal experts even argue a militia must get called up by POTUS.

Isn't that what was happening on Jan 6th? The PDF says the militias are organized by the state, not the federal government, so not at the whim of the POTUS. No Hail, Caesar.

[Skybird]

Now that I think of it I must admit that I am not certain anymore that my memory hasnt fooled me. I forgot whether it is the governor of a state or the POTUS who alone can legitimise a militia to be actually a "militia" by calling it up and that militia then following governor's/POTUS' direct military command. I think I was wrong, I think it was the state governor, not the POTUS.


However, the core message is the same: just a gang of armed people calling themselves a militia does not make them one - they just remain to be not more than a random gang of armed people giving themselves a bombastic name.

[Ostfriese]

"It's my right!", cried the Republican gun owner who didn't and doesn't hesitate for even a microsecond when it comes to curbing the rights of women, LGBT people, voters in predominantly democratic voting areas and many others.

[Xerxes]

For the militia that applies but how is that measured with private ownership? Also, the PDF I posted indicates the the state creates the militia but isn't responsible for it's readiness. I'm not taking a position here, just throwing it out for discussion.


It wasn't per se private ownership, but a group of guys throw in funds and choose a commander. Readiness would be to the standard of the commanding officer, and in times of war, to the standards of the government, who gets to choose whether or not to accept said militia under it's command.


That being said, we're not supposed to have a standing army.
The militia was intended to be the people at large:

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." - George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788


"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves. They include all men capable of bearing arms. To preserve liberty is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms and be taught alike how to use them." Richard Henry Lee


"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of." Source: Federalist No. 48, February 1, 1788


Now, it's a mix between people willing to fight, and offering their services, and people being organized by the town/state.

[Xerxes]

"It's my right!", cried the Republican gun owner who didn't and doesn't hesitate for even a microsecond when it comes to curbing the rights of women, LGBT people, voters in predominantly democratic voting areas and many others.


Are you talking about gerrymandering?


If so, look at jersey's redistricting, as well as Illinois's redistricting. Both are horrible gerrymanders.


I'm not denying that the scumbags RUNNING the party don't gerrymander, but stop making rude and divisive blanket statements about the voter base.

[Ostfriese]

Are you talking about gerrymandering?


If so, look at jersey's redistricting, as well as Illinois's redistricting. Both are horrible gerrymanders.


I'm not denying that the scumbags RUNNING the party don't gerrymander, but stop making rude and divisive blanket statements about the voter base.


I didn't explicitly mentioning gerrymandering. And "he started it" has never ever been a good argument.

[Ostfriese]

It wasn't per se private ownership, but a group of guys throw in funds and choose a commander. Readiness would be to the standard of the commanding officer, and in times of war, to the standards of the government, who gets to choose whether or not to accept said militia under it's command.


That being said, we're not supposed to have a standing army.
The militia was intended to be the people at large:

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." - George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788


"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves. They include all men capable of bearing arms. To preserve liberty is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms and be taught alike how to use them." Richard Henry Lee


"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of." Source: Federalist No. 48, February 1, 1788


Now, it's a mix between people willing to fight, and offering their services, and people being organized by the town/state.


Those are ideas from the 18th century, they are effing 230 years old, from a time, when handheld guns were still muzzleloaders, before the steam age.

[August]

Having a proficient militia is just one reason for the peoples right to keep and bear arms but it is not the only reason. In any case the people do not need to supply reasons for rights that are endowed to them by their creator. Especially rights acknowledged by their own constitution as not to be infringed upon.

[August]

Those are ideas from the 18th century, they are effing 230 years old, from a time, when handheld guns were still muzzleloaders, before the steam age.




So what? Tyrants and murderers were similarly limited.

[mapuc]

I say the same as Skybird did some years ago in our former US-Politics thread.

(From memory)
The word militia mean there's a structure a hierarchy from top to bottom officer who gives order and soldiers who obey them.

Markus

[Xerxes]

Aka mercenaries.


Mercenaries offer their services to the highest bidder, militias offer their service to their government, at little to no pay, and certainly not for profit.

[Rockstar]

For you Euros who think our president is some kind of king and that the federal government is the ruling body of this country. Over here the term for a lawful Militia which the constitution is referring too is these days commonly known as a State Defense Force (SDF). Last count I saw was in a 2010 report that said 23 States officially have one. I think Florida just recently formed one as well. The SDF is under the control of the people (governor) of their respective state and NOT under control of the federal government. I know some would like you to think it’s a Democrat vs Republican thing but even the Great State of California has one. Legal gun owners bear 300,000,000 firearms and trillions of rounds of ammo. If legal ownership was a problem don’t you think we would know it by now?


https://drgo.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Black-gun-owner.jpg

[Sean C]

I own multiple firearms, but I am not a Republican and I have never attempted to "curb" the rights of anyone else.

As for the argument that the ideas set forth in the Constitution are outdated: as far as I know, no one believes that freedom of speech, for example, only applies to the printing press - or that police no longer need a warrant to search one's property. The Second Amendment is meant as a safeguard against a tyrannical government. From where I sit, the U.S. government has never seemed more so.

The Second Amendment does say that militias are necessary for the security of a free state. But it is the right of the people to keep and bear arms that it protects. Because who is going to populate a militia, if not the people?

It is estimated that there are around 400 million guns in the U.S. They won't be disappearing any time soon. We could try to ban some or even all guns. We could take it a step further and ban knives too - or any sort of weapon for that matter. But I have a better idea: we simply make murder itself illegal. That way, no one can kill anyone! It's so simple!

https://i.imgur.com/hG7rFrEm.jpg

[Buddahaid]

"Uvalde police, school district no longer cooperating with Texas probe of shooting."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/uvalde-police-school-district-longer-cooperating-texas-probe/story?id=85093405

Looks like it's time to open a criminal investigation.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

The problem with the 2nd Amendment is it became a moot point after the United States had a standing army. The whole purpose of even having militias was at the time of the American Revolution there was no standing army and the majority of the Continental Army was until the latter years of the war largely made up of said militias. As I've pointed out before as well when the Constitution was written the 2nd Amendment made sense because one the US was at that time surrounded by three of the world powers i.e France, Great Britain and Spain all of whom had well trained standing armies, two lots of really pissed of Native Americans who where hostile to settlers invading their ancestral territory, and three they where using smoothbore muzzle loading flintlock muskets and pistols (sorry the Kentucky Long-rifle was really a musket with a rifled barrel) that could at best get off two to three rounds a minute depending on the skill of the individual soldier.

[August]

I say the same as Skybird did some years ago in our former US-Politics thread.

(From memory)
The word militia mean there's a structure a hierarchy from top to bottom officer who gives order and soldiers who obey them.

Markus


Well not necessarily, look up the term "unorganized militia", but regardless it is irrelevant anyways.

Thing is Militias are NOT a justification for the right to keep and bear arms. That right exists even if the Second Amendment was never written. The 2A, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights, only officially recognize certain human rights that belong to all free people. The BoR contains only individual rights that were considered vital enough that they were "enumerated" with (supposedly) clear instructions for the government not to infringe upon them.

[Rockstar]

The problem with the 2nd Amendment is it became a moot point after the United States had a standing army. The whole purpose of even having militias was at the time of the American Revolution there was no standing army and the majority of the Continental Army was until the latter years of the war largely made up of said militias. As I've pointed out before as well when the Constitution was written the 2nd Amendment made sense because one the US was at that time surrounded by three of the world powers i.e France, Great Britain and Spain all of whom had well trained standing armies, two lots of really pissed of Native Americans who where hostile to settlers invading their ancestral territory, and three they where using smoothbore muzzle loading flintlock muskets and pistols (sorry the Kentucky Long-rifle was really a musket with a rifled barrel) that could at best get off two to three rounds a minute depending on the skill of the individual soldier.

Just a quick FYI, when you declare something as being ‘moot’. You are saying it is still open for debate or discussion.

[The Congress shall have Power . . . ] To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; . . .

So continuing on with the debate of militias.

The power of the state government to legislate militias existed prior to the formation of the Constitution. Though the militia clauses do not constrain Congress in raising and supporting a national army neither does it remove the States power to raise a militia.

I don’t know anything about Kentucky long rifles I’m from Wisconsin.

And when I speak of Militias I’m referring to State organized militias or a SDF. Not the private ones and those other loose cannons.

[d@rk51d3]

No reports on this so far......

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/05/armed-woman-stops-career-criminal-shooting-at-a-birthday-party/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)#axzz7UuO4e700

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236

[Gorpet]

Can we start with Chicago Illinois first? It seems that the most gun deaths are from their citizens out working. So if Joe is going to hit the country with a Presidential decree of gun control.Then i would like for Chicago to be the the City to implement the government's controls .And in 24 months if that works' then maybe we talk about how well the Democrats gun control laws will be beneficial for the rest of the Country.

[MaDef]

No reports on this so far......

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/05/armed-woman-stops-career-criminal-shooting-at-a-birthday-party/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)#axzz7UuO4e700

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236

Doesn't fit the narrative, so the MSM will ignore it or dismiss it as an aberration.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Just a quick FYI, when you declare something as being ‘moot’. You are saying it is still open for debate or discussion.

[The Congress shall have Power . . . ] To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; . . .

So continuing on with the debate of militias.

The power of the state government to legislate militias existed prior to the formation of the Constitution. Though the militia clauses do not constrain Congress in raising and supporting a national army neither does it remove the States power to raise a militia.

I don’t know anything about Kentucky long rifles I’m from Wisconsin.

And when I speak of Militias I’m referring to State organized militias or a SDF. Not the private ones and those other loose cannons. Okay so what about this thing called the National Guard? Did the National Guard take on the role of what the states militias had done previously, since while it is considered part of the US Army's Reserve when it's activated for a federal mission but when it is not activated is under the control of a state's governor. I would also argue that in the context of the 2nd Amendment it gives the right to keep and bear arms to members of the well regulated militia and not the general populous of the United States.

[Rockstar]

Okay so what about this thing called the National Guard? Did the National Guard take on the role of what the states militias had done previously, since while it is considered part of the US Army's Reserve when it's activated for a federal mission but when it is not activated is under the control of a state's governor. I would also argue that in the context of the 2nd Amendment it gives the right to keep and bear arms to members of the well regulated militia and not the general populous of the United States.

The U.S. Army National Guard can be called up under federal control. The State Defence Force is solely under control of the State Governor.

Any of the 50 states can form a well regulated militia anytime it wants too. Some have them already, others do not but can if they so wish. State militias will be consist of armed citizens of that State. Plus I don’t see anywhere in the militia clauses that deny citizens ownership.


I also don’t see what talking about militias has to do with Salvador Ramos? He was a violent child who had absolutely no respect for the lives of others, he was demented, lost, no morals, disconnected from reality. Blows my mind why nobody is looking into the causes of this killers decisions and maybe trying to change that from forming in others? Instead, here we are AGAIN like clockwork talking about f-in militias. :roll:

He had a juvenile record how about making that available to background checks? How about raising the age to purchase to 21? Ya but Trump!, Militias!, NRA!

Why isn’t anyone looking into the common links, if any, these kinds had?

Experts have consistently raised concerns about this:

“The irritability and impulsivity” from antidepressants, for example, “can make people suicidal or homicidal.”[7] – Harvard Medical School psychiatrist Joseph Glenmullen

“The link between antidepressants and violence, including suicide and homicide, is well established.”[8] – Patrick D. Hahn, affiliate professor of biology at Loyola University Maryland

“Violence and other potentially criminal behavior caused by prescription drugs are medicine’s best kept secret.”[9] – Professor David Healy, leading psychopharmacology expert and professor of psychiatry in Wales

In a study published in the British Medical Journal, in January 2016, Prof. Peter C. Gøtzsche and other researchers reported: “Perpetrators of school shootings and similar events have often been reported to be users of antidepressants….” Antidepressants, including the use of Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) and Serotonin-Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitors (SNRIs), put at risk the lives of individuals prescribed them. Reviewing numerous studies of five different antidepressants, they found there was a doubling of the risk for both aggressive behavior and suicidality for children and adolescents.[10]

This is why only the dumbasses of the world call for mandates.

The use of psychotropic drugs in schools is so rife in the U.S. that in 2004, a Prohibition of Mandatory Medication Amendment was necessary when it was discovered that, astoundingly, parents were being threatened with criminal child abuse charges if they refused to put their school-aged child on a psychotropic drug as a requisite for their education, or took them off it.[11]

[Rockstar]

Has America Tried Bombing Its Mass Shooting Problem? Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix




https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/05/26/has-america-tried-bombing-its-mass-shooting-problem-notes-from-the-edge-of-the-narrative-matrix/



Oh cool it’s the part of the news cycle where Democrats and Republicans pretend something’s going to change about American gun laws for a few days.
“It’s a gun control problem!”
“Nuh-uh it’s a mental health problem!”
[Nothing changes about gun laws or mental health care]
[Repeat]
❖
There’s probably a correlation between the fact that the US is the only nation with a mass shooting epidemic and the fact that Americans are the most aggressively propagandized population on earth.


If you took any armed population and psychologically pummelled them from birth with narratives about how mass military slaughter is fine while turning them into underpaid, alienated gear-turners and giving them an artificial culture mass-produced in Los Angeles, you’d probably see some mass shootings.


There’s only so far you can warp the human psyche before it snaps. Bash hundreds of millions of people in the brain their entire lives with indoctrination programs telling them madness is sanity and sanity is madness, and eventually a few of them are going to wind up mass murderers.

[August]

I would also argue that in the context of the 2nd Amendment it gives the right to keep and bear arms to members of the well regulated militia and not the general populous of the United States.

It does not. It provides one reason that the peoples right should not be infringed upon but that does not imply that it is the only reason.

This is the Bill of Rights we are talking about. Individual rights, not the governments power to raise an army like you argue.

[mapuc]

You talk a lot about Bills of Rights and Amendment-Doesn't it mentioned something about obligations/responsibility ?

Markus

[August]

You talk a lot about Bills of Rights and Amendment-Doesn't it mentioned something about obligations/responsibility ?

Markus

Such as?

Read the entire Second Amendment yourself:

"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

Obligations, responsibilities? Show me. All I see is a limitation placed on government power just like the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Maybe you are confusing this with the Bill of Responsibilities? They call that the US Code of Law.

[Rockstar]

If it’s illegal to drive under the influence of alcohol. It should be illegal for a child or anyone to purchase a firearm if they are on a prescribed psychotropic drug(s) with known side effects which may contribute to thoughts of violence, homicide or suicide.

That’s a pretty good start huh?

[MaDef]

If it’s illegal to drive under the influence of alcohol. It should be illegal for a child or anyone to purchase a firearm if they are on a prescribed psychotropic drug(s) with known side effects which may contribute to thoughts of violence, homicide or suicide.

That’s a pretty good start huh?
That takes care of about 11% of the population, add in those of you who self medicate (alcohol, marijuana, etc) and the percentage is significantly higher.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Has America Tried Bombing Its Mass Shooting Problem? Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix




https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/05/26/has-america-tried-bombing-its-mass-shooting-problem-notes-from-the-edge-of-the-narrative-matrix/



Oh cool it’s the part of the news cycle where Democrats and Republicans pretend something’s going to change about American gun laws for a few days.
“It’s a gun control problem!”
“Nuh-uh it’s a mental health problem!”
[Nothing changes about gun laws or mental health care]
[Repeat]
❖
There’s probably a correlation between the fact that the US is the only nation with a mass shooting epidemic and the fact that Americans are the most aggressively propagandized population on earth.


If you took any armed population and psychologically pummelled them from birth with narratives about how mass military slaughter is fine while turning them into underpaid, alienated gear-turners and giving them an artificial culture mass-produced in Los Angeles, you’d probably see some mass shootings.


There’s only so far you can warp the human psyche before it snaps. Bash hundreds of millions of people in the brain their entire lives with indoctrination programs telling them madness is sanity and sanity is madness, and eventually a few of them are going to wind up mass murderers. It's 100% right in more ways then one. And the real reason why nothing will change isn't because of politics but money.

[August]

That takes care of about 11% of the population, add in those of you who self medicate (alcohol, marijuana, etc) and the percentage is significantly higher.

I didn't realize that pot had "known side effects which may contribute to thoughts of violence, homicide or suicide".

Doesn't sound like the pot I know.

[em2nought]

Why are our heavily democrat controlled schools producing such defective children? What are they teaching them besides which one of 50 genders they are? Or maybe that exact kind of BS is the problem. Are boys being told that boys are bad? It seems like it to me. Meanwhile your girlfriend can take a dump on your bed and they're fine with that. :har:

You can't let them thin out the ranks of firearm owners because it will keep on going. Next they'll be after anyone who ever suffered from PTSD as they reduce your numbers at every chance until the reach the goal of an unarmed populace. Except for Ukraine or Afghanistan, go ahead and give those guys machine guns.

[MaDef]

I didn't realize that pot had "known side effects which may contribute to thoughts of violence, homicide or suicide".

Doesn't sound like the pot I know. That's because the "pot" being consumed today is a lot different then the "hippy weed" you consumed as a kid.

I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of marijuana use, suffice to say that it is considered a "psychotropic substance" (which is pretty much the reason for its recreational use).

[August]

That's because the "pot" being consumed today is a lot different then the "hippy weed" you consumed as a kid.

I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of marijuana use, suffice to say that it is considered a "psychotropic substance" (which is pretty much the reason for its recreational use).


I am no stranger to the weed sold these days. If you are lumping it in with actually dangerous drugs like methamphetamine for the purpose of stealing peoples God given right to self defense from them then you are as guilty of false propagandizing as the "Reefer Madness" fascists were who pushed the original lies about marijuana.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plDupPHgBKo


Carlin swears like a sailor, you've been warned.

[Rockstar]

That's because the "pot" being consumed today is a lot different then the "hippy weed" you consumed as a kid.

I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of marijuana use, suffice to say that it is considered a "psychotropic substance" (which is pretty much the reason for its recreational use).

It’s not “that’ different. IMO the biggest difference back in the day was some serious quality control issues. But today there is no problem finding nothing but truly dank herb.

Below are the current side effects warning on medicinal weed. Note there are no thoughts of violence, suicide or homicide

Increased heart rate
Dizziness
Impaired concentration and memory
Slower reaction times
Negative drug-to-drug interactions
Increased risk of heart attack and stroke
Increased appetite
Potential for addiction
Hallucinations or mental illness
Withdrawal symptoms


I’ve had increased heart rate but only on the first few draws after that it slows back down, I’ve had the munchies. I also seem to be more aware than having impaired concentration or memory but I will eventually start winding down.. I’ll also add some from own experience. Outbursts of uncontrollable laughter, mild psychedelic effects, mild paranoia, couch lock, time dilation, waking up in morning feeling mentally and physically refreshed.

Once out of frustration I slammed the dash of my car because of a perceived slowing of time. I even locked my speed in at 55 mph and it still seemed like it was taking forever to get home. I swear the road just kept getting longer. :har:

[MaDef]

Like I said, I have no intention debating the marijuana issue. But keep this in mind while you kids are coming up with all these new "laws", if you use marijuana (for whatever reason) and attempt to buy or posses a firearm then you are in violation of the gun control act of 1968. Which, bottom line, makes you a criminal. :03:

[Rockstar]

Like I said, I have no intention debating the marijuana issue. But keep this in mind while you kids are coming up with all these new "laws", if you use marijuana (for whatever reason) and attempt to buy or posses a firearm then you are in violation of the gun control act of 1968. Which, bottom line, makes you a criminal. :03:

No it doesn’t. Times they are a changing. Today’s pre-purchase self assessment questionnaire clearly differentiates between lawful and unlawful possession of marijuana.

IMO this topic was never about marijuana laws anyway. The initial point was ‘red flags’ People in possession of firearms who are taking lawfully prescribed drugs handed out like candy having known adverse side effects of thoughts of homicide, suicide and violence. Apparently some studies have indicated that was a link between many of the shooters.

[MaDef]

you really need to learn to read everything.
Form 4437 clearly states the following:

Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized
for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside

[Buddahaid]

And then there is this.
https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/sb19-093

[Rockstar]

And then there is this.
https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/sb19-093

Oh man, time to move to Colorado

I don’t get how this argument derailed going from medicines that are known to cause serious mental health ‘red flag’ issues that warnings of thoughts of violence, suicide, and homicide are on the label. Then about the lawful or unlawful use of marijuana of which there are no side effects of violence, suicide and homicide. WTF?

What about caffeine and nicotine? What about the herbs in your freaking cupboard, junipers, oregano, sage, hyssop, rosemary, what about lettuce greens? All are known to contain some amount psychoactive properties. Shouldn’t we make it unlawful to purchase a firearm if you have those in your pantry?

Hell, f-it ban it all man, including all fire arms. I’m fine with it. The only meds you can get are the ones the glorious party leaders and pharmaceutical companies say you can have. Like the ones known to cause violent, suicidal, or homicidal thoughts. Who knows maybe they can mandate their use again like it was done before and charge parents with child abuse if they disagree.

Let me know if anyone wants to get back to the original argument about red flags concerning mental health, violence, suicidal and homicidal thoughts. Jesus:roll:

[em2nought]

Let me know if anyone wants to get back to the original argument about red flags concerning mental health, violence, suicidal and homicidal thoughts. Jesus:roll:

Voting for Trump will probably serve as enough evidence for a democrat leaning kangaroo court to red flag you. Here's an example of how easy it is to do something like this to a citizen https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/wendy-williams-denies-mental-health-allegations-wells-fargo-accounts-1235181112/ I'm not even sure I want to keep money in a bank anymore.

I have no idea about pot. I never touched the stuff my entire life, and then tried to inhale some a few years ago. I could not make myself inhale it, so I might be the one person in the world that could believe gold ol' Bill Clinton about that one.

[Commander Wallace]

Oh man, time to move to Colorado

What about caffeine and nicotine? What about the herbs in your freaking cupboard, junipers, oregano, sage, hyssop, rosemary, what about lettuce greens? All are known to contain some amount psychoactive properties. Shouldn’t we make it unlawful to purchase a firearm if you have those in your pantry?


My home made pizza sauce contains a few of those ingredients. I will have to rename my pizza “ Psychoactive surprise. “



I have no idea about pot. I never touched the stuff my entire life, and then tried to inhale some a few years ago. I could not make myself inhale it, so I might be the one person in the world that could believe gold ol' Bill Clinton about that one.


I never touched that or any other drugs either. Bill Clinton said he never inhaled marijuana smoke. I think ole Bill was inhaling marijuana smoke when the Monica Lewinsky indictments and trial broke, though. :D:haha:

[MaDef]

Oh man, time to move to Colorado

I don’t get how this argument derailed going from medicines that are known to cause serious mental health ‘red flag’ issues that warnings of thoughts of violence, suicide, and homicide are on the label. Then about the lawful or unlawful use of marijuana of which there are no side effects of violence, suicide and homicide. WTF?

Let me know if anyone wants to get back to the original argument about red flags concerning mental health, violence, suicidal and homicidal thoughts. Jesus:roll:

You derailed it (go back and reread the posts). Getting back to the "Red Flag Laws". Do any of you think through the pros & cons of your proposals objectively, or do you just go with whatever the "Talking Heads" propose and makes you feel good?

[Rockstar]

Jesus, look at the beginning of the post thread. I am speaking specifically of prescribed medicines which have printed on their labels known side effects, namely violent, homicidal, and suicidal behavior or thoughts. I’m suggesting if people are looking for red flags then that should be something to consider. Bear in mind:

A red flag law is a gun control law that permits police or family members to petition a state court to order the temporary removal of firearms from a person who may present a danger to others or themselves.

Obviously sometimes a hard decision for the courts to make. But here’s what I’m saying, if someone is ALREADY taking medication(s) that may cause heinous thoughts and behavior. Then that should be considered a red flag and bar the purchase of a firearm.

The point me and few other were making about marijuana laws which you so graciously brought up. That takes care of about 11% of the population, add in those of you who self medicate (alcohol, marijuana, etc) and the percentage is significantly higher. Maybe I’m wrong, if so I apologize. But it seemed you implied that marijuana and alcohol should be included. In reply I tried to point out marijuana does not or is not known to cause “red flag” behaviors. Any laws regrading it’s use is IMO a completety separate issue and deserves its own thread.


I know this will irk the mandate Nazis and believers in their god science as told by the party bosses.
https://www.cchrint.org/pdfs/violence-report.pdf

[mapuc]

Good luck Mr President.

"Why in God's name should an ordinary citizen be able to purchase an assault weapon that holds 30-round magazines, that let mass shooters fire hundreds of bullets in a matter of minutes?" the Democratic president continued.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61678983

As outsider who does not understand the Americans inner child, I don't understand what an ordinary American need an assault weapon with 30 round magazine to.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Good luck Mr President.

Why in God's name should an ordinary citizen be able to purchase an assault weapon that holds 30-round magazines, that let mass shooters fire hundreds of bullets in a matter of minutes?" the Democratic president continued.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61678983

…

Markus


One thing is for sure, after that speech there was a major spike in gun sales across the U.S. Happens evertime :yeah:

[les green01]

i got a m-14 or a m1a fun to shoot even put a 10 round mag in it use it last year deer hunting my dad was a Marine in Nam use the m-14 his eyes lit up when he seen it also i work for a school district here we have lock doors even some of the schools are putting fences up if someone wants in bad enough nothing in the world going stop them i have two options to protect my kids if it happens try to get close enough and use hand to hand odds of that working slim other option soak up the rounds give my kids a few more minutes the option i like to have let me carry my ultra compact 45 least i would have a fighting chance to protect my kids or if i get it maybe someone a teacher or one of my kids could get hold of it and put it too use

[mapuc]

One thing is for sure, after that speech there was a major spike in gun sales across the U.S. Happens evertime :yeah:

No doubt about it-But can you enlighten me as an outsider why an ordinary person in USA need an assault weapon with a 20 or a 30 round magazine ?

Isn't a 9 mm handgun enough ?

Markus

[Rockstar]

No doubt about it-But can you enlighten me as an outsider why an ordinary person in USA need an assault weapon with a 20 or a 30 round magazine ?

Isn't a 9 mm handgun enough ?

Markus

Enough for what? You seem to be focused on the usual media arguments revolving around self defense, militias, Democrat vs Republican etc etc. But there is a lot of fun for the caveman in all of us to be had too. ;)

https://youtu.be/oa2VcmPci0Y

https://youtu.be/KcaOO9yV9vY

https://youtu.be/YGxnwU8_VMw

[MaDef]

But it seemed you implied that marijuana and alcohol should be included. In reply I tried to point out marijuana does not or is not known to cause “red flag” behaviors. Any laws regrading it’s use is IMO a completety separate issue and deserves its own thread.
https://www.cchrint.org/pdfs/violence-report.pdf You are correct, I did imply it, and they should be included with the other psychotropic medications.

My problem is that your "proposals" are straight from the movie "Minority Report", and taking away peoples rights BEFORE they've committed a crime is something I will not endorse.

[MaDef]

No doubt about it-But can you enlighten me as an outsider why an ordinary person in USA need an assault weapon with a 20 or a 30 round magazine ?

Isn't a 9 mm handgun enough ?

Markus

Lets be clear, American civilians are not allowed to own "assault weapons" without the proper licensing and background check (the background check is more comprehensive than the NICS check usually done for weapons purchases.)

What you mistakenly call an assault weapon is a semi-automatic sport rifle, an assault rifle (weapon) on the other hand has a "selector switch" allowing the rifle to be fired semi-automatic, 3-rnd burst, or fully automatic.


As for why we need 20-30 round magazines, 3-gun competition comes to mind.

[August]

No doubt about it-But can you enlighten me as an outsider why an ordinary person in USA need an assault weapon with a 20 or a 30 round magazine ?

Isn't a 9 mm handgun enough ?

Markus


Well for one reason a well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state. :salute:

[Rockstar]

You are correct, I did imply it, and they should be included with the other psychotropic medications.

My problem is that your "proposals" are straight from the movie "Minority Report", and taking away peoples rights BEFORE they've committed a crime is something I will not endorse.

Ya maybe it does, just a little. :03: But then what is the idea behind barring someone from purchasing a firearm because they used marijuana?

I’m just throwing out ideas. It’s been said Democrats no longer accept donations from the gun lobby. But damn do they ever rake it from the pharmaceutical companies. So I expect prescription drugs that are known to cause some pretty heinous side effects will never be considered anyway. :yep:

[les green01]

don't forget some of the lefties wants to get rid of the police another damn good reason have them better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them but then once in a time a government tried to take Americans firearms away wonder how that turn out oh wait we know

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Ya maybe it does, just a little. :03:

I’m just throwing out ideas. It’s been said Democrats no longer accept donations from the gun lobby. But damn do they ever rake it from the pharmaceutical companies. So I expect prescription drugs that are known to cause some pretty heinous side effects will never be considered anyway. :yep: That's because politicians in this county in both parties are and have been bought and paid by corporations for decades now. Politicians are there to give American's the illusion we have freedom of choice. We don't, the corporations own everything, us, the government, all the good land, you name it they own it. If we going to go around finger pointing you'll never see someone especially a politician running around pointing their finger at the gun manufactures AND the pharmaceutical companies will you? But what happens if a person gets shot but not killed, they got to a hospital where they're put on some really strong drugs right?

[Buddahaid]

https://i.gifer.com/origin/77/77dcff52d9ee58a72db145406cbc11df_w200.gif

[Ostfriese]

Well for one reason a well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state. :salute:


Then why are there nations in which citizens enjoy more freedom without any sort of militia?

[August]

Then why are there nations in which citizens enjoy more freedom without any sort of militia?


Beats me. I never heard of another nation that has more freedom than ours.

[Ostfriese]

Beats me. I never heard of another nation that has more freedom than ours.


:haha: :har:


Most of the western European nations.
Australia.
Likely Japan.
Probably even South Korea (I don't know enough about South Korea).

[em2nought]

Then why are there nations in which citizens enjoy more freedom without any sort of militia?

Because they have the USA for a sugar daddy? :03:

[Dowly]

Because they have the USA for a sugar daddy? :03:
Do please give some examples of this being the case in Finland. I am truly curious.

[MaDef]

Ya maybe it does, just a little. :03: But then what is the idea behind barring someone from purchasing a firearm because they used marijuana?

I’m just throwing out ideas. It’s been said Democrats no longer accept donations from the gun lobby. But damn do they ever rake it from the pharmaceutical companies. So I expect prescription drugs that are known to cause some pretty heinous side effects will never be considered anyway. :yep:

In 1968 the Government passed the Gun Control Act, and made it illegal to buy or own a firearm if using or possessing a Schedule one drug, and in 1970 the FEDS classified Marijuana as a schedule 1 drug (which means it had no acceptable medical use at the time, and was fairly easy to abuse) , making it illegal to use or posses.

If you are wondering why alcohol was included, it's already illegal to buy or have a firearm in your possession while under the influence of alcohol.

There is no "magic bullet" (pun intended) in addressing these types of killings. The root cause is instant gratification coupled with lack of accountability on the part of the shooters, and they get that from society at large. Address that, and you will see progress.

[em2nought]

Do please give some examples of this being the case in Finland. I am truly curious.

Nazi Germany was Finland's sugar daddy wasn't it? :hmmm:

[Dowly]

Nazi Germany was Finland's sugar daddy wasn't it? :hmmm:


So you can't give any examples. How surprising.

[Rockstar]

That's because politicians in this county in both parties are and have been bought and paid by corporations for decades now. Politicians are there to give American's the illusion we have freedom of choice. We don't, the corporations own everything, us, the government, all the good land, you name it they own it. If we going to go around finger pointing you'll never see someone especially a politician running around pointing their finger at the gun manufactures AND the pharmaceutical companies will you? But what happens if a person gets shot but not killed, they got to a hospital where they're put on some really strong drugs right?

I don’t understand what you just said.

Allow me to reiterate:

I am for raising the purchasing age of a firearm to 21.

I am for “red flagging” people who take drugs known to cause or may cause violent, homicidal or suicidal thoughts or behavior.

I am for showing proof of responsibility namely, holding a job, which pays for home ownership or rental property. In other words if you’re 21 or older and still liviing with mommy and daddy you’re still a child and not considered responsible.

I am for allowing 18 year olds or older to volunteer for military service and vote.

I am for investigating what changed or why the uptick in violence in the last 40 years.

[Rockstar]

Then why are there nations in which citizens enjoy more freedom without any sort of militia?

I give up, why?

[August]

Do please give some examples of this being the case in Finland. I am truly curious.




Says the guy whose country is now begging to join NATO and get under the protection of the USofA.

[MaDef]

I am for investigating what changed or why the uptick in violence in the last 40 years. The Following, in no particular order, is a list of causes:

Increase in population of 100+ million
Rise of social media
Refusal of DA's to prosecute crime
The rise of the ANTIFA & BLM movements
The Covid-19 pandemic (and the Gov. response)
the widespread acceptance of recreational drug use
the rise of CRT (critical Race Theory)
Defund the police movement
Lack of acceptable role models for children
lack of 2 parent households for children
politicians pitting one demographic against another in order to get elected or remain in office.
An increase of people wanting instant gratification
A decrease of holding people accountable for their actions


Address the last 2 on the list and you will see a precipitous drop in violence (and probably crime).

[Dowly]

Says the guy whose country is now begging to join NATO and get under the protection of the USofA.
Yet even without NATO (of which we are not yet part of) we have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, freedoms that in many parts exceeds those of Americans. Still waiting for those examples...

[August]

Yet even without NATO (of which we are not yet part of) we have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, freedoms that in many parts exceeds those of Americans. Still waiting for those examples...


But you're making a staw man argument. Finland has national conscription. Every one of you is already in a militia so you don't count.

[Onkel Neal]

I don’t understand what you just said.

Allow me to reiterate:

I am for raising the purchasing age of a firearm to 21.

I am for “red flagging” people who take drugs known to cause or may cause violent, homicidal or suicidal thoughts or behavior.

I am for showing proof of responsibility namely, holding a job, which pays for home ownership or rental property. In other words if you’re 21 or older and still liviing with mommy and daddy you’re still a child and not considered responsible.

I am for allowing 18 year olds or older to volunteer for military service and vote.

I am for investigating what changed or why the uptick in violence in the last 40 years.

Man, that's the best thing I've seen written on this subject. But, even if we made those changes, unless they were enforced, little would change.

The Following, in no particular order, is a list of causes:

Increase in population of 100+ million
Rise of social media
Refusal of DA's to prosecute crime
The rise of the ANTIFA & BLM movements
The Covid-19 pandemic (and the Gov. response)
the widespread acceptance of recreational drug use
Defund the police movement
Lack of acceptable role models for children
lack of 2 parent households for children
politicians pitting one demographic against another in order to get elected or remain in office.
An increase of people wanting instant gratification
A decrease of holding people accountable for their actions


Address the last 2 on the list and you will see a precipitous drop in violence (and probably crime).

Yes, on all points except CRT, cannot see how that has anything to do with it. I also think violent video games, music, and movies play a large role. I know these things exist in other countries without guns, but I can't imagine that kind of desensitizing does not play a role.

[Buddahaid]

The Following, in no particular order, is a list of causes:

Increase in population of 100+ million
Rise of social media
Refusal of DA's to prosecute crime
The rise of the ANTIFA & BLM movements
The Covid-19 pandemic (and the Gov. response)
the widespread acceptance of recreational drug use
the rise of CRT (critical Race Theory)
Defund the police movement
Lack of acceptable role models for children
lack of 2 parent households for children
politicians pitting one demographic against another in order to get elected or remain in office.
An increase of people wanting instant gratification
A decrease of holding people accountable for their actions


Address the last 2 on the list and you will see a precipitous drop in violence (and probably crime).

You forgot the rise of authoritarinism and religious fundimentalism, and I don't see how CRT is responsible for anything other than causing embarrasment to those who don't want to face up to it.

[les green01]

i do think the games and music playing a big part of it like gta thing i don't like about red flag is someone got a beef against you or like my sister not right in the head turns you in blam your guilty until proven innocent damn feds have too much power now

[MaDef]

Really? It teaches that one race is inherently racist and are oppressors due to the color of their skin, it also teaches that one race are victims and are currently being victimized due to the color of their skin.

[Buddahaid]

Really? It teaches that one race is inherently racist and are oppressors due to the color of their skin, it also teaches that one race are victims and are currently being victimized due to the color of their skin.

Which has plenty of historic proof to make an inconvenient point as part of the USA's, and the worlds, collective history. The stench needs to be aired out and put behind us so we can all move forward on a better footing.

[Dowly]

But you're making a staw man argument. Finland has national conscription. Every one of you is already in a militia so you don't count.Fair point.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I don’t understand what you just said.

Allow me to reiterate:

I am for raising the purchasing age of a firearm to 21.

I am for “red flagging” people who take drugs known to cause or may cause violent, homicidal or suicidal thoughts or behavior.

I am for showing proof of responsibility namely, holding a job, which pays for home ownership or rental property. In other words if you’re 21 or older and still liviing with mommy and daddy you’re still a child and not considered responsible.

I am for allowing 18 year olds or older to volunteer for military service and vote.

I am for investigating what changed or why the uptick in violence in the last 40 years. I was responding to the part of the post where you where pointing out that the Democrats no longer take money from the gun lobby but are more then willing to take money from big pharma. Really though my response belongs more in the US Politics thread then here.



As for this post I do agree on all of those points. I have also brought up the point in another thread about having a license for different types of firearms and the requirements to get said licenses but no one seemed to care about whether or not that was a good or bad idea and why it would be so.

[August]

Which has plenty of historic proof to make an inconvenient point as part of the USA's, and the worlds, collective history. The stench needs to be aired out and put behind us so we can all move forward on a better footing.




"Plenty of historic proof" that all white people are inherently racist. What bull. We are no more racist than any other group of human beings.

[Rockstar]

Especially when you consider the FACTS there have been more Caucasians enslaved than any other group of people on the planet. Also this CRT thing is just another new ideology driven by one more special interest group out of many. It’s teaching should remain out of schools grades K thru 12 and government. Though I’m good with a presentation of CRT ideas on the college level. I mean if someone wants to piss away their tuition for extra credit. Why the hell not it’s their money.

There is another FACT concerning poverty. Contrary to what politicians and special interest group would like for you to believe. “White poverty rate does run much lower than the black rate, just under 10 percent, one-third of the black rate. But the white poor outnumber the black poor considerably, 19 to 7.8 million. White people make up 42 percent of America’s poor, black people about 28 percent.

The basic numbers don’t change when we look at people living in extreme poverty, in households making less than 50 percent of the meager poverty line. Of the 20 million people who live at this alarming level of want and deprivation, about 42 percent are white, 27 percent black.

These data have political implications that racial stereotyping usually shroud from public view. Many white people who don’t live anywhere near poverty, even many who consider themselves liberal, think blacks compose most of the poor. Large numbers of these white Americans feel no emotional connection to the problems poor people face. They perceive poverty as a problem of some other community, not their own.

If those white Americans who felt this way actually had to confront the demographic reality of poverty, if they came to understand that white people make up the single largest group of the poor, how white America thinks about poverty and policy might start changing.

Well-meaning white Americans have for decades been aware that black people face the risk of poverty than whites. But “poverty,” we all need to understand, is more and different than “race.””

Another FACT is the stench of slavery still exists in the world today. Besides the liberal’s pity party pointing out how everyone’s poop smell worse than their’s. What’s the liberal hive mind been doing to stop the modern day slavery happening right under their nose?

Is some special interest group idea pushing CRT supposed to end that and poverty?

edit: Oh I almost forgot, the best I can tell CRT doesn’t have squat to do with what madef and Buddahaid we’re arguing over.


www.inequality.org (http://www.inequality.org)

[Skybird]

The view of a former Washington Met police officer with 20 years of service.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/05/opinions/guns-ar-15-uvalde-school-shooting-fanone/index.html

[Jeff-Groves]

That's nothing more then his opinion.
Like Butt holes? Every one has one.
And since he's retired? Why does he still keep his?

[Skybird]

Read it again. He makes an awesome lot of sense. And he does exactly not what you seem to do and many others: harping on about abstract principles. Its pragmatical reason he talks.

[August]

That's nothing more then his opinion.
Like Butt holes? Every one has one.
And since he's retired? Why does he still keep his?


Exactly. Basically he just made a straw man argument. He takes unverified hearsay and then declares it to be stupid. :roll:

[Jeff-Groves]

harping on about abstract principles.
So says one who does EXACTLY the same thing with walls of text.

I have all the equipment in my basement work shop.
All the knowledge to build things like automatic weapons and silencers for them, timed or proximity bombs, etc.
But for some strange reason? I haven't went hunting Humans nor ever built said devices.

So there's a more important function involved that no one seems to want to address.

[mapuc]

Please tell me I'm wrong but I get the feeling that the Americans values the 2nd Amendment more than a human life.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

Please tell me I'm wrong but I get the feeling that the Americans values the 2nd Amendment more than a human life.

Markus
And another BS post to elicit emotional responces.
:hmph:

[mapuc]

And another BS post to elicit emotional responces.
:hmph:

Then I was wrong-Thank you

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

My opinion?
Should the 2nd Amendment be taken away and Gov't try to come get the registered guns?

The Ukraine will look like a cartoon! And the whole World will suffer the results.

[Rockstar]

Please tell me I'm wrong but I get the feeling that the Americans values the 2nd Amendment more than a human life.

Markus

Dude, really, did you just accuse me of not caring about human life? It sure as hell looks it too me. Two words immediately come to mind which express exactly what I think about your accusation of me. “Piss off” as defined by Citations–all from British or Commonwealth sources–date from 1934 with the most recent being from David Mitchell’s Black Swan Green, 2006: “The gypsy kid sat under the cedar sending out piss off waves.” The dictionary doesn’t say so, but it seems to me clearly a euphemism for the saltier “f— off.”.

[Jeff-Groves]

Seems solutions from those outside the USA is based on crazy thinking.

Their solution to problems in a marriage would probably be
"Get rid of the Spouse!"

:har:

[nikimcbee]

Seems solutions from those outside the USA is based on crazy thinking.

Their solution to problems in a marriage would probably be
"Get rid of the Spouse!"

:har:


Hold on, let me write that down.:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Gorpet]

Enough for what? You seem to be focused on the usual media arguments revolving around self defense, militias, Democrat vs Republican etc etc. But there is a lot of fun for the caveman in all of us to be had too. ;)

https://youtu.be/oa2VcmPci0Y

https://youtu.be/KcaOO9yV9vY

https://youtu.be/YGxnwU8_VMw

Ya know Rockstar is a Yankiee, And he is just throwing up what the folks around him look like. And it's a damn good respiration. I don't see swamps behind them . But is the term Caveman inclusive and if it is not.It's going to piss somebody off. yes i think i'll have another of my medical joints. And life is good,I have found the best buds and it has led me to what i was searching for. Socialist Utopia and i'm becoming a minimalist i only need weed ,water and ramen noodles,I thank our great leader Joe and the Democrats, being born in 1958. If i just had that crystal ball.My last coherint thoughts

[mapuc]

Dude, really, did you just accuse me of not caring about human life? It sure as hell looks it too me. Two words immediately come to mind which express exactly what I think about your accusation of me. “Piss off” as defined by Citations–all from British or Commonwealth sources–date from 1934 with the most recent being from David Mitchell’s Black Swan Green, 2006: “The gypsy kid sat under the cedar sending out piss off waves.” The dictionary doesn’t say so, but it seems to me clearly a euphemism for the saltier “f— off.”.

Sorry I was terrible wrong I shouldn't have written it.

It was because some of the interviews Swedish and Danish tv had made in Texas where they interviewed ordinary people and the answer they gave. Made me wonder. Nevertheless I understood I was wrong. Wrong in generalizing-
Once again I'm sorry accusing you and the other of my American friends.

Markus