Bullnose BLOWN OFF

[Torpex77]

:yeah:

https://ibb.co/ZSFT4PV

https://ibb.co/NVnVYmK

[Bubblehead1980]

:yeah:

Ouch!

Cause? Torpedo? Gunfire? Ramming? Only time I have ever had that happen was years ago when I rammed a the Q ship in TMO.

[Torpex77]

Ouch!

Cause? Torpedo? Gunfire? Ramming? Only time I have ever had that happen was years ago when I rammed a the Q ship in TMO.

Torpedo from an ESCORT! :o Did Not see that Coming at ALL!

No Internal damage, but it did register as 52% Hull damage. :hmmm:

Here's the Thing...This is the SECOND time this happened. First time was in an S-Class in March 42 in the Sibutu Passage. I thought my encountering a "Task Force" of Sampans was silly until it turned out to be 2 Gyoraitei patrol boats. They seemed confused and shooting way off target so I thought Id finish em off with the Deck Gun.

As Im on the deck gun blasting away, I notice these things drop off the sides. :o Torpedos??? In SH4 shot at me???:timeout: So I turn and put the Bow Directly at the patrol boat, figuring Id drive between them. Well One blew up and is that a hellacious event while on the deck gun..lol it actually stunned me for ma second in real life..:haha:

FOTRS 1.7 is EXCELLENT:Kaleun_Salute:

https://imgbb.com/ZSFT4PV

https://ibb.co/NVnVYmK

[KaleunMarco]

Torpedo from an ESCORT! :o Did Not see that Coming at ALL!

it is in the documentation.
very dangerous....you go first.

[Torpex77]

it is in the documentation.
very dangerous....you go first.

Ill Check with my Comms Officer and see why He missed that! :haha:

[Bubblehead1980]

Torpedo from an ESCORT! :o Did Not see that Coming at ALL!

No Internal damage, but it did register as 52% Hull damage. :hmmm:

Here's the Thing...This is the SECOND time this happened. First time was in an S-Class in March 42 in the Sibutu Passage. I thought my encountering a "Task Force" of Sampans was silly until it turned out to be 2 Gyoraitei patrol boats. They seemed confused and shooting way off target so I thought Id finish em off with the Deck Gun.

As Im on the deck gun blasting away, I notice these things drop off the sides. :o Torpedos??? In SH4 shot at me???:timeout: So I turn and put the Bow Directly at the patrol boat, figuring Id drive between them. Well One blew up and is that a hellacious event while on the deck gun..lol it actually stunned me for ma second in real life..:haha:

FOTRS 1.7 is EXCELLENT:Kaleun_Salute:

https://imgbb.com/ZSFT4PV

https://ibb.co/NVnVYmK


Ouch! Yea, you shouldve been sunk lol.

They will definitely get you. Escorts in FOTRS caught me off guard first time firing torpedoes at me and I expected it was coming as had read about it in the readme.

In TMO I am working on AI DD's having torpedoes. The surfaced and submerged AI submarines can fire them now, as can PT boats. Thanks to FOTRS of course, I learned by example.


I've only been torpedoed once, I was in a Narwhal leaving Pearl in December 1941, on the surface at night, sailing along, no warning. Boom! AI submarine got me.

Had quite a few close closes in various patrols, been shot at by other subs, but never been hit.


US AI subs will attack enemy convoys, so wolfpack ops are now possible, a lot of fun teaming up on enemy convoys, can get intense. Did recently learn in testing to be careful as torpedoes which missed enemy can hit you on other side of convoy (one reason Wolfpack doctrine was to "take turns" attacking from opposite sides.

[Torpex77]

I have no issue with AI Subs, or any Historically accurate Patrol Boat or escort that had them AND historically used them. I just hope it doesn't get like Crash Dive II and turn unrealistic like that arcade game.

I've studied the pacific war my entire adult life, and I play WWII subsims with the experiences and documentation from WWII, plus my own real life submarine life. I pretty much use documentation to know what keys do what LOL

Escorts shooting torpedo's is not documented anywhere in anything I ever read, so it has me raising an eyebrow. Not saying I couldn't have missed it being mentioned, but if it was common (over 75% reported) I think myself and others would have introduced it to WWII Pacific Submarine simulations decades ago. :) I still think The Modder's here do an excellent Job and greatly appreciate their work.

[Bubblehead1980]

I have no issue with AI Subs, or any Historically accurate Patrol Boat or escort that had them AND historically used them. I just hope it doesn't get like Crash Dive II and turn unrealistic like that arcade game.

I've studied the pacific war my entire adult life, and I play WWII subsims with the experiences and documentation from WWII, plus my own real life submarine life. I pretty much use documentation to know what keys do what LOL

Escorts shooting torpedo's is not documented anywhere in anything I ever read, so it has me raising an eyebrow. Not saying I couldn't have missed it being mentioned, but if it was common (over 75% reported) I think myself and others would have introduced it to WWII Pacific Submarine simulations decades ago. :) I still think The Modder's here do an excellent Job and greatly appreciate their work.


I agree. I have taken great steps to prevent things from becoming "arcade " like and maintain historical accuracy much as possible within the limitations of the sim. Encounters with AI subs are pretty rare, but possible. The danger of a lurking AI sub which can torpedo player sub without warning is always there, it encourages vigilance and realistic behavior by player such as setting a zig zag course. To keep things realistic in game , submerged AI subs have to get pretty close to engage. PT boat's can shoot them as well, but if player is operating in proper manner, should never be in situation where a PT boat can shoot torpedoes at them. However, if they choose to put themselves in situation, they run the risk of being torpedoed. Far as the regular escorts, I will not add them .


However, I want fleet type destroyers to have torpedoes for surface battles between different forces, for better immersion, as I have things modified now where they will engage at longer ranges. Actually had BB's engaging one another at about 18000 yards other day in testing(!), which is a huge improvement over the default "always practically at point blank" engagement style of the AI. Best part, is they nor smaller ships like DD's engage subs at such distances, can't detect them. One great improvement was Yamato and others blasting away at the CVE's off Samar in Oct 1944 for example, BB's opened fire at 14000 yards.


To ensure every escort player encounters is not lobbing torpedoes for reasons you mentioned, plan to limit AI torpedoes to select enemy fleet destroyers , submarines, and PT boats and select number of Allied DD, DE, along with subs and PT boats of course. Like always, its about balance.


I do not recall reading about escorts shooting torpedoes at subs either. I highly doubt a fleet type destroyer would have have chanced wasting its torpedoes on a sub, which is a difficult target to torpedo, esp with destroyer's torpedo attack doctrine. A PT boat though, would likely take a shot, especially if guarding a pass or strait and got a shot. Just doubt many, if any , found themselves in a proper position to fire at a sub.

[Torpex77]

I agree. I have taken great steps to prevent things from becoming "arcade " like and maintain historical accuracy much as possible within the limitations of the sim. Encounters with AI subs are pretty rare, but possible. The danger of a lurking AI sub which can torpedo player sub without warning is always there, it encourages vigilance and realistic behavior by player such as setting a zig zag course. To keep things realistic in game , submerged AI subs have to get pretty close to engage. PT boat's can shoot them as well, but if player is operating in proper manner, should never be in situation where a PT boat can shoot torpedoes at them. However, if they choose to put themselves in situation, they run the risk of being torpedoed. Far as the regular escorts, I will not add them .


However, I want fleet type destroyers to have torpedoes for surface battles between different forces, for better immersion, as I have things modified now where they will engage at longer ranges. Actually had BB's engaging one another at about 18000 yards other day in testing(!), which is a huge improvement over the default "always practically at point blank" engagement style of the AI. Best part, is they nor smaller ships like DD's engage subs at such distances, can't detect them. One great improvement was Yamato and others blasting away at the CVE's off Samar in Oct 1944 for example, BB's opened fire at 14000 yards.


To ensure every escort player encounters is not lobbing torpedoes for reasons you mentioned, plan to limit AI torpedoes to select enemy fleet destroyers , submarines, and PT boats and select number of Allied DD, DE, along with subs and PT boats of course. Like always, its about balance.


I do not recall reading about escorts shooting torpedoes at subs either. I highly doubt a fleet type destroyer would have have chanced wasting its torpedoes on a sub, which is a difficult target to torpedo, esp with destroyer's torpedo attack doctrine. A PT boat though, would likely take a shot, especially if guarding a pass or strait and got a shot. Just doubt many, if any , found themselves in a proper position to fire at a sub.

I agree 100%. DD's shooting Torpedo's at Enemy task force is very legit.
Besides..US Subs had enough worry with our own torpedo's potentially sinking them! :down:

All said though....LOL....pretty proud to have survived two Torpedo Hits!

[propbeanie]

There are several stories of DD shooting torpedoes at subs. The SingleMission in FotRSU "Three Of A Kind" that cdrsubron7 built, is based on such an incident, where a sub on the surface was approaching a stationary DD near Attu. The US at the time was not cognizant of range of the Japanese Long Lance, so the sub was trying to get closer / faster in order to use their torpedoes before the DD got underway. Lookouts reported torpedo tracks coming at them when about 6,000 yards out, so they crash dived, and then heard more torpedoes inbound. I have the boat's name somewhere in my pile of 'stuff'... but there are other subs that have reports of torpedoes shot at them in their War Patrol Reports. They did not happen often, but they were not rare either. From what I can gather, less than the number of friendly-fire incidents, but there were quite a few. Submarines were often mistaken for a DD or subchaser from a distance, and the Japanese loved to shoot their Long Lance from long range. "Surprise" factor...

[Bubblehead1980]

There are several stories of DD shooting torpedoes at subs. The SingleMission in FotRSU "Three Of A Kind" that cdrsubron7 built, is based on such an incident, where a sub on the surface was approaching a stationary DD near Attu. The US at the time was not cognizant of range of the Japanese Long Lance, so the sub was trying to get closer / faster in order to use their torpedoes before the DD got underway. Lookouts reported torpedo tracks coming at them when about 6,000 yards out, so they crash dived, and then heard more torpedoes inbound. I have the boat's name somewhere in my pile of 'stuff'... but there are other subs that have reports of torpedoes shot at them in their War Patrol Reports. They did not happen often, but they were not rare either. From what I can gather, less than the number of friendly-fire incidents, but there were quite a few. Submarines were often mistaken for a DD or subchaser from a distance, and the Japanese loved to shoot their Long Lance from long range. "Surprise" factor...



Boat was the Growler (I think).

[merc4ulfate]

I have no issue with AI Subs, or any Historically accurate Patrol Boat or escort that had them AND historically used them. I just hope it doesn't get like Crash Dive II and turn unrealistic like that arcade game.

I've studied the pacific war my entire adult life, and I play WWII subsims with the experiences and documentation from WWII, plus my own real life submarine life. I pretty much use documentation to know what keys do what LOL

Escorts shooting torpedo's is not documented anywhere in anything I ever read, so it has me raising an eyebrow. Not saying I couldn't have missed it being mentioned, but if it was common (over 75% reported) I think myself and others would have introduced it to WWII Pacific Submarine simulations decades ago. :) I still think The Modder's here do an excellent Job and greatly appreciate their work.

While you are correct about "escort" vessel such as Hiburi-class, Type C and D and other "escort" units did not have torpedo launchers, the DD did. From Momo year 1919 on, DD had 21 inch tubes and varying types of torpedo launchers. The Momo had two triple launchers. Beginning in 1924 Mutsuki-class DD and Cruisers had the 24 inch tubes for the Type 93 torpedo.

I say make them all in the game fire fish. I enjoyed the added challenge they create in the FOTRSU mod.

Did everyone enjoy the coffee today?

[Torpex77]

There are several stories of DD shooting torpedoes at subs. The SingleMission in FotRSU "Three Of A Kind" that cdrsubron7 built, is based on such an incident, where a sub on the surface was approaching a stationary DD near Attu. The US at the time was not cognizant of range of the Japanese Long Lance, so the sub was trying to get closer / faster in order to use their torpedoes before the DD got underway. Lookouts reported torpedo tracks coming at them when about 6,000 yards out, so they crash dived, and then heard more torpedoes inbound. I have the boat's name somewhere in my pile of 'stuff'... but there are other subs that have reports of torpedoes shot at them in their War Patrol Reports. They did not happen often, but they were not rare either. From what I can gather, less than the number of friendly-fire incidents, but there were quite a few. Submarines were often mistaken for a DD or subchaser from a distance, and the Japanese loved to shoot their Long Lance from long range. "Surprise" factor...

Ive read a load of Books on US subs, patrol reports and Books and nothing I ever read ever mentioned it. If you have a reference Id love to read the report. Not disrespecting you, Id like to see how exactly they concluded it was a DD or a Jap sub. How did the Japanese Know what depth to set? The Long Lance was a contact torpedo, so setting depth would be like shooting at a duck with a rifle at night. I cant imagine any Commanding Officer in any Navy wasting a resource like torpedos. Late war=desperation would seem reasonable.

I dont discount it happened a couple times, but as a matter of normal action, doesnt justify it on large scale in a simulation.

The USS Barb had a rocket launcher at the request of Fluckey..can we get that too? :haha:

I just think FOTRS has done really amazing and respectable things, and hate to see it get Arcady like Crash Dive II where the torpedo's go down 200+ ft and take out a sub.
Its also a Historical respect thing IMHO. :salute:

[Bubblehead1980]

Ive read a load of Books on US subs, patrol reports and Books and nothing I ever read ever mentioned it. If you have a reference Id love to read the report. Not disrespecting you, Id like to see how exactly they concluded it was a DD or a Jap sub. How did the Japanese Know what depth to set? The Long Lance was a contact torpedo, so setting depth would be like shooting at a duck with a rifle at night. I cant imagine any Commanding Officer in any Navy wasting a resource like torpedos. Late war=desperation would seem reasonable.

I dont discount it happened a couple times, but as a matter of normal action, doesnt justify it on large scale in a simulation.

The USS Barb had a rocket launcher at the request of Fluckey..can we get that too? :haha:

I just think FOTRS has done really amazing and respectable things, and hate to see it get Arcady like Crash Dive II where the torpedo's go down 200+ ft and take out a sub.
Its also a Historical respect thing IMHO. :salute:

If I recall, GROWLER attacked three destroyers in the Aleutians on her first patrol in 1942. Hit two of the DD's, then the third DD launched torpedoes at Growler. Growler damaged the third in return, severely. That is going solely on memory, I will check my sources have saved and the patrol report and share with here tomorrow.

IMHO, I am inclined to agree with you overall. I will say that if a class of vessel had torpedoes, should be able to fire them in the sim. If they did not have them, really should not have them in the sim, part of maintaining a simulation.

Per the rocket launcher, I have heard that , as a upgrade (Which would be okay if its costly renown wise and only available at end of war) it is is in the works.

[Captain Wreckless]

If I recall, GROWLER attacked three destroyers in the Aleutians on her first patrol in 1942. Hit two of the DD's, then the third DD launched torpedoes at Growler. Growler damaged the third in return, severely. That is going solely on memory, I will check my sources have saved and the patrol report and share with here tomorrow.

IMHO, I am inclined to agree with you overall. I will say that if a class of vessel had torpedoes, should be able to fire them in the sim. If they did not have them, really should not have them in the sim, part of maintaining a simulation.

Per the rocket launcher, I have heard that , as a upgrade (Which would be okay if its costly renown wise and only available at end of war) it is is in the works.

Interesting.

[Torpex77]

If I recall, GROWLER attacked three destroyers in the Aleutians on her first patrol in 1942. Hit two of the DD's, then the third DD launched torpedoes at Growler. Growler damaged the third in return, severely. That is going solely on memory, I will check my sources have saved and the patrol report and share with here tomorrow.

IMHO, I am inclined to agree with you overall. I will say that if a class of vessel had torpedoes, should be able to fire them in the sim. If they did not have them, really should not have them in the sim, part of maintaining a simulation.

Per the rocket launcher, I have heard that , as a upgrade (Which would be okay if its costly renown wise and only available at end of war) it is is in the works.

I'm skeptical of torpedo's hitting a sub from any surface ship because of my experience in US Subs. When I was on USS Boston, we were a test Platform for the ADCAP, my entire tour, minus a few short deployments, was spent on loading and shooting over 750 exercise weapons over 3 years. Im no expert but being involved in that program, seeing the number of hits vs misses with such an advanced weapon does make me skeptical of ANY WWII surface ship hitting a submerged sub.

A surface ship hitting a surfaced sub is a different story and may account for a few of the 52. The 3D battlefield on surfaced units is more like 2.9D LOL If the torpedo ran on the surface it would still most likely sink a surfaced sub.

Sending Torpedo's would also require the captain to make sure any misses didn't hit his friendlies. I was attacking a task force in the Bismark Sea and some Jap lunatic starting shooting torpedo's at me. I was in the middle of the Task force! Not sure who but they hit an escort and sank it, hit a carrier and a Heavy cruiser. :D Which I helped to submerge:03:.

So Im not suggesting it should be removed, unless there's no way to control/limit it. :) Just my experience & thoughts, not making any harsh judgement.
:subsim:

[propbeanie]

Read up a bit on the WW2 Japanese doctrine. They fired torpedoes from long range, and if you didn't know to look out for them, that was your problem. Their DE, DD, CL and CA all had torpedo launchers, and most did not have radar until late, if at all. If nothing is supposed to be in a given area, when something is seen, it must be enemy. All target "ID" was visual, and a submarine on the surface does look like a DE or DD from long distance, hence, they shot torpedoes, probably assuming the "ship" was between 6 & 8k away. Gun engagement would follow at just about the same time as the expected torpedo hits. Here's an interesting article:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/japans-long-lance-torpedo-most-over-hyped-weapon-world-war-ii-48887

There are more that describe their long-range and profligate use of torpedoes, and yes, they did hit themselves several times, and their "hit" percentage was generally quite low, with a few engagements off Guadalcanal showing the weapon's potential, but also spotlighting its mis-use... I often wonder how many more torpedoes were shot that US ships never saw because they had changed course with a zig or a zag after the shooting platform let fly? There is an article that studies that perspective, and is in the JANAC reports somewhere... their hit to miss ratio was quite poor, being worse than the early US Mark 14 ratio. :salute:

Edit: one thing in the game as it stands now with the use of the TorpGun, is that the DD will indeed use the weapon for AA fire also... so if you see airplanes attacking DD in the game, look-out for torpedoes to be sprayed in every direction. There will also be the inevitable fratricide incidents that way also... The "fix" is to make the guns from a Main gun weapon, but then they shoot torpedoes when you're 10k yards away... so a compromise has been done, and they are short-ranged weapons in FotRSU and TMO_BH.

PS: I found another example of the IJN use of torpedoes, though no details, from H-Gram 068 (https://www.history.navy.mil/about-us/leadership/director/directors-corner/h-grams/h-gram-068.html):
“'They Sold Their Lives Dearly' is the title of a Tom Freeman painting that hangs in the entrance to my office at Naval History and Heritage Command. The painting shows USS Houston under a deluge of shellfire, her own guns are blazing away as she is surrounded by an overwhelming Japanese force while attacking the Japanese invasion fleet off Java on the night of 28 February/1 March 1942. It took 87 Japanese torpedoes to put Houston and her consort, Australian light cruiser HMAS Perth, under, and in the chaotic melee, Japanese torpedoes sank four of their own troop transports."

[Torpex77]

Read up a bit on the WW2 Japanese doctrine. They fired torpedoes from long range, and if you didn't know to look out for them, that was your problem. Their DE, DD, CL and CA all had torpedo launchers, and most did not have radar until late, if at all. If nothing is supposed to be in a given area, when something is seen, it must be enemy. All target "ID" was visual, and a submarine on the surface does look like a DE or DD from long distance, hence, they shot torpedoes, probably assuming the "ship" was between 6 & 8k away. Gun engagement would follow at just about the same time as the expected torpedo hits. Here's an interesting article:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/japans-long-lance-torpedo-most-over-hyped-weapon-world-war-ii-48887

There are more that describe their long-range and profligate use of torpedoes, and yes, they did hit themselves several times, and their "hit" percentage was generally quite low, with a few engagements off Guadalcanal showing the weapon's potential, but also spotlighting its mis-use... I often wonder how many more torpedoes were shot that US ships never saw because they had changed course with a zig or a zag after the shooting platform let fly? There is an article that studies that perspective, and is in the JANAC reports somewhere... their hit to miss ratio was quite poor, being worse than the early US Mark 14 ratio. :salute:

Edit: one thing in the game as it stands now with the use of the TorpGun, is that the DD will indeed use the weapon for AA fire also... so if you see airplanes attacking DD in the game, look-out for torpedoes to be sprayed in every direction. There will also be the inevitable fratricide incidents that way also... The "fix" is to make the guns from a Main gun weapon, but then they shoot torpedoes when you're 10k yards away... so a compromise has been done, and they are short-ranged weapons in FotRSU and TMO_BH.

PS: I found another example of the IJN use of torpedoes, though no details, from H-Gram 068 (https://www.history.navy.mil/about-us/leadership/director/directors-corner/h-grams/h-gram-068.html):
“'They Sold Their Lives Dearly' is the title of a Tom Freeman painting that hangs in the entrance to my office at Naval History and Heritage Command. The painting shows USS Houston under a deluge of shellfire, her own guns are blazing away as she is surrounded by an overwhelming Japanese force while attacking the Japanese invasion fleet off Java on the night of 28 February/1 March 1942. It took 87 Japanese torpedoes to put Houston and her consort, Australian light cruiser HMAS Perth, under, and in the chaotic melee, Japanese torpedoes sank four of their own troop transports."

I read both references. I never disputed that IJN warships did have and did use Torpedo's. The references confirm that they were used against other surface ships.

Im only suggesting that in realistic ASW situation the primary weapon was depth charges (and ramming) against a submarine, NOT torpedo's. had there been more events Im confident they would have been picked up by sonar and documented in the war patrol reports.

I commend that the Mod Team got them working, I think its great, its just that the game engine uses them in a very unrealistic manner. :)

[propbeanie]

The game engine is sadly lacking in this department. It does not know what to do with the torpedoes, since a "gun" was used to simulate the torpedo. All AI guns are capable of firing at air, surface & submerged targets. I would not be surprised to see them also used against shore guns at some point. That is another reason why they were made short-range weapons in FotRSU. My main point is that there are at least several instances of submarines being shot at by destroyers with torpedoes. That one example was one of three that I can remember, but the only one I could find documentation on without spending 2 weeks going through the submarine War Patrol Reports (https://www.hnsa.org/manuals-documents/submarine-war-patrol-reports/). The surface ship depth charge was the primary ASW weapon, airplanes probably 2nd, ship guns 3rd, etc... on down to probably 12th on the list for the torpedo (after potatoes even), and my guess would be that the several of their real life uses against submarines was mis-identification of the target due to the range, and therefore, an inappropriate weapon was utilized. Either that, or a torpedoman was at the ready, but no one was in the gun turret at the time... :roll: :salute:

[Torpex77]

The game engine is sadly lacking in this department. It does not know what to do with the torpedoes, since a "gun" was used to simulate the torpedo. All AI guns are capable of firing at air, surface & submerged targets. I would not be surprised to see them also used against shore guns at some point. That is another reason why they were made short-range weapons in FotRSU. My main point is that there are at least several instances of submarines being shot at by destroyers with torpedoes. That one example was one of three that I can remember, but the only one I could find documentation on without spending 2 weeks going through the submarine War Patrol Reports (https://www.hnsa.org/manuals-documents/submarine-war-patrol-reports/). The surface ship depth charge was the primary ASW weapon, airplanes probably 2nd, ship guns 3rd, etc... on down to probably 12th on the list for the torpedo (after potatoes even), and my guess would be that the several of their real life uses against submarines was mis-identification of the target due to the range, and therefore, an inappropriate weapon was utilized. Either that, or a torpedoman was at the ready, but no one was in the gun turret at the time... :roll: :salute:

LOL Exactly!

On a separate note I did notice you all got the sleeping escort working! How surprised was I to pop the scope spin a look around and whoop-whoop :o an escort about 700 yards away at zero knots making not a sound! :up:

[propbeanie]

We cannot claim full responsibility for that Torpex77, though I'm certain s7rikeback's cleaning of the ID conflicts has helped in the "logic" of the game being more capable of "thinking" (crunching numbers more efficiently). But the stock game is also capable of the "trick". It seems to be a situationally dependent phenomenon. I don't know if it depends upon if you sink the "Lead" ship of a group, and the group then becomes "unstable", or what. But it does seem to be a part of the game's AI, and seems to be like a roll of the dice, only happening maybe 10-15% of the time, or maybe only under the 2nd blue moon... ??

Like a few WWII skippers, I too have popped my scope up before, seen nothing, nothing on sonar, blown ballast and almost immediately got a "We're under attack sir!!!" message, and there it is, that "smart" AI DD that hung around, and somehow or other ( :roll: ) knew to hang-out ~behind~ the way my boat was facing... If I have SJ and it is a dark night, I add a slight pause at Radar Depth and do a couple of quick scans prior to coming up anymore - ~IF~ I think about it... :arrgh!: