Need a little help identifying a coat

[Rhodes]

A little or a big help, all is welcome.

I am posting here since it is easier to ask here first and if this thread should be in another part of the forum, I beg the moderators if they change to the correct location.

Also, posting here, is also easier for me, even if I am looking for more appropriate forums, that I beginning to look.

Bom, what I need is this: Identifying this British army coat, that we think is from 1850's and on (or not...).

Our museum have it by means of a donation, but no information was given about the coat.

Pics:
https://i.ibb.co/QCrzPYG/DSC-2075.jpg (https://ibb.co/dLG1Pky)
https://i.ibb.co/XL516Ks/DSC-2080.jpg (https://ibb.co/54jmCS8)
https://i.ibb.co/mt7CffY/DSC-2086.jpg (https://ibb.co/J2PRDDb)
https://i.ibb.co/Wk3q1tk/DSC-2088.jpg (https://ibb.co/sKPkrHK)
https://i.ibb.co/sFNwFtW/DSC-2089.jpg (https://ibb.co/fCypCQD)

Royal Fusiliers 3rd London? Or Royal Marines? I think the rank is lieutenant do to the crown and that rose (I think that is call like that).

And do you know any forum or web place I can also ask?

Thank you.

[Aktungbby]

https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/img/p38230_66600_1470157416.jpg This is a British 19th Century, Full General Rank Tunic, Pattern 1856-1868: note similar yellow button trim, trim twisted shoulder epaulets, and 'rounded' (not square) collar tips. Rear view is also very similar:https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/img/p38230_66604_1470157439.jpg All your excessive cuff embroidery escapes me though but it sure looks like a 'dress' uniform for soirées: note also: a very similar collar trim insignia:https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/img/p38230_66603_1470157431.jpg:Kaleun_Salute: BOTTOM LINE: if in doubt and somebody's wearing that getup; just stand at attention & :Kaleun_Salute:!!!:arrgh!: DAMN QUICK!! https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/british-19th-century-full-general-rank-tunic-pattern-18561868.38230.archive.htm Particularly glad to help, as my daughter directs a museum on donations incl. my interior paint jobs; and truck driving to get new display cabinets as needed! EDIT per Rockstar's post: On each side of the collar are thickly embroidered star and crown, designating the rank of a full General. On the shoulders are two narrow, twisted gold wire cords secured by two small General's pattern buttons. The beautifully made gilt finished buttons display the backmark of Jennens & Co. London, without the Prince of Wales Plume added in1860 by that firm. I was able to check the backs of the closure buttons,they all match, however the cuff and skirt buttons are sewn so closely to the material I can't get a good view of the reverse. you're 'right on the button as usual Rockstar!:O:

[Rockstar]

If it is from the suggested time period there may be a “makers mark” on the back of the buttons. You might from there see who they made them for. Outside of that I don’t have a clue. :salute: Nice find though.

[Eichhörnchen]

I think maybe you should be looking for a Grenadiers regiment

[ET2SN]

You could have posted this in the Who / What / Where Game thread and made it more sporting. :subsim: :D

Is there any personal ID or a name tag hiding in the pockets? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

I agree with Aktung :yep:

[Jeff-Groves]

I'd have to say Aktung is probably on the money.
Although he's my favorite Cunning Linguist? He and his family have EXTENSIVE back grounds in stuff like this.
And I expect a phone call very soon from him!
:o

[Aktungbby]

I agree with Aktung
^ U should! I wear the same thing on formal Civil War occasions such as our Annual ball for Civilwar reenacting. C & D Jarnigan made all my gear: both fieldhttps://www.jarnaginco.com/artwork/confuniform/901.jpg and dresshttps://www.jarnaginco.com/artwork/confuniform/906%20front72.JPG and completely authentic in every detail down to the coattail pockets etc. Now (after 4 decades) if I lose 50 Lbs I could wear them again!:wah:

[Jeff-Groves]

You Lie! 50 pounds times 2 maybe.
:hmmm:

[Commander Wallace]

It amazes me you were all able to figure that out that quickly, especially Aktung. I wouldn't have had a clue but I agree, it's a nice find.:yep: Now, Aktung's head will be even bigger than it was before. :yep:

[Jeff-Groves]

It amazes me you were all able to figure that out that quickly, especially Aktung. I wouldn't have had a clue but I agree, it's a nice find.:yep: Now, Aktung's head will be even bigger than it was before. :yep:
I'll say this for my Friend! Aktung is one of the most intelligent persons I have met through Subsim! And I have met him Face to Face! Not just here online.
He actually showed up at a job site where I was demoing stuff out in California.

Now his head just went up at lest a hat size!

[Commander Wallace]

I'll say this for my Friend! Aktung is one of the most intelligent persons I have met through Subsim! And I have met him Face to Face! Not just here online.
He actually showed up at a job site where I was demoing stuff out in California.

Now his head just went up at lest a hat size!


I agree Jeff but you shouldn't have said that. Now, Aktung will be impossible to live with. :haha:


In re reading what I said, I think it came across as that Aktung was the one I least expected to figure it out. Quite the contrary, I would expect if anyone would know, it would be Aktung. I guess I shouldn't have said that either. :haha:

[Jeff-Groves]

I agree Jeff but you shouldn't have said that. Now, Aktung will be impossible to live with. :haha:



Nah.
He'll call me (He and I do talk on the phone) and drone on for hours and hours about it.
:har:

Actually? You'd have to talk to him yourself to get an understanding of him! He is someone I hope to meet face to face again!
My time at the only meeting was way shorter then I'd hoped for! Maybe a bit over the top for some here at Subsim.
But I'd love to spend WEEKS with him.

And add another hat size!

I actually told him that if he bought a Ship to turn into a Pirate Cruise Ship? I'd move out there and help him convert it!

[Aktungbby]

You Lie! 50 pounds times 2 maybe.
:hmmm:

It amazes me you were all able to figure that out that quickly, especially Aktung. I wouldn't have had a clue but I agree, it's a nice find.:yep: Now, Aktung's head will be even bigger than it was before. :yep: I'd settle for another 70 to get down to my wedding suit size...that said, I quit alcohol cold turkey on my 70 birthday mostly 'cause old school buddies -girls incl. were croaking from pancreatic cancer. That got me down 20 Lbs enough to get into my original rugby Jersey for a recent 50 year reunion.:yeah:

I agree Jeff but you shouldn't have said that. Now, Aktung will be impossible to live with. :haha:
In re reading what I said, I think it came across as that Aktung was the one I least expected to figure it out. Quite the contrary, I would expect if anyone would know, it would be Aktung. I guess I shouldn't have said that either. :haha: well time in the Who What Where thread sharpens the search techniques, especially with Jimbuna or Catfish hot on yer six!:yeah: I wonder if, as Rhodes is in Spain, if this isn't possibly one of the Duke of Wellington's later garb? He served in India, Spain and Belgium and lasted well into the late 19th century; and that's a lotta snazzy braid on the cuffs. :hmmm: looking into Field Marshal's attire of the mid-19 th century...

[Jeff-Groves]

time in the Who What Where thread sharpens the search techniques,

:hmmm:
Obviously not enough!
:haha:

Your analitical skills are subpar.

[Aktungbby]

Your analitical skills are subpar. So's my golf game; damn putter's not stiff enough This late find caught my eye as the sleeve braiding is the most similar to the OP's https://i.ibb.co/QCrzPYG/DSC-2075.jpg vs Royal Engineer's dress uniform with Very similar cuffs-but black facings not the OP's white.... https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/8c/41/f68c41b6864ede942c56b5ad6aef9e00.jpg which has me boggled.

[Rhodes]

First, thank you all! :subsim:


Rockstar, will do. I do not know why I didn't remember to do that.



Aktungbby, really? You have to insult me? Spain???!!!:k_confused::O:

I'm from Portugal! :D


Back to the coat: I also found that photo, with the similar sleeves.

I do not think it's from the Napoleonic Wars, even with Welling disembarking were I live! :03:
It looks more mid/later XIX century. My initial thoughts was Royal Marines do to the sleeves. Normally here, navy or navy related has the "rope" in uniforms, dress coats, etc.

Then, I began to look Royal Fusiliers do to the flame symbol on the buttons.

Unless the ball and flame (with the number) are representing the symbol of the Royal Engineer's.

At least now I know it is from a full general!

[Aktungbby]

First, thank you all! :subsim:


Rockstar, will do. I do not know why I didn't remember to do that.



Aktungbby, really? You have to insult me? Spain???!!!:k_confused::O:

I'm from Portugal! :D


Back to the coat: I also found that photo, with the similar sleeves.

I do not think it's from the Napoleonic Wars, even with Welling disembarking were I live! :03:
It looks more mid/later XIX century. My initial thoughts was Royal Marines do to the sleeves. Normally here, navy or navy related has the "rope" in uniforms, dress coats, etc.

Then, I began to look Royal Fusiliers do to the flame symbol on the buttons.

Unless the ball and flame (with the number) are representing the symbol of the Royal Engineer's.

At least now I know it is from a full general!Sorry 'bout my poor geography...I meant Iberian Peninsula?!!:03: the Royal Engineer's tunic is also labelled as "Fusiliers" in some sites. I only posted it because of the identical cuff embroidery..

[ET2SN]

You know, it just dawned on me. What you have may not be authentic.
It could be a prop from a movie or TV series wardrobe. :D

Either way, it could be worth a lot of dough. If it is truly ancient (pre 1960's), the stitching should be ready to fall apart (dry rot, etc). If the condition is "too good to be true", I'd bet its a prop. :yeah:

[Rhodes]

Sorry 'bout my poor geography...I meant Iberian Peninsula?!!:03: the Royal Engineer's tunic is also labelled as "Fusiliers" in some sites. I only posted it because of the identical cuff embroidery..

:up:


You know, it just dawned on me. What you have may not be authentic.
It could be a prop from a movie or TV series wardrobe. :D

Either way, it could be worth a lot of dough. If it is truly ancient (pre 1960's), the stitching should be ready to fall apart (dry rot, etc). If the condition is "too good to be true", I'd bet its a prop. :yeah:


Not necessarily, since it will depend about the storage conditions. We have several cloth pieces more ancient that are in better state and also worse.

It is more difficulty here to have something form a TV/movie, since we are not a (often) filming location country, but if the case, when did it come from.

And the stitches are fall apart in same areas as the interior reflects it age, the photos that I posted here do not show that areas.

[Reece]

Hmm, could be a bellhops coat! :hmmm: . . . . :D

[Rhodes]

I check the backside of the buttons: Firmin & Sons. London! Already found their website and info about them. Going to contact them and see if they can help also.

Photos of the interior and the stitches:
https://i.ibb.co/yghK5LC/1646302272517.jpg (https://ibb.co/XFy6pmP)
https://i.ibb.co/d7Xq7XB/1646302272549.jpg (https://ibb.co/stcGtcj)
https://i.ibb.co/k987gBX/1646302272568.jpg (https://ibb.co/YykC7Qh)
https://i.ibb.co/2vV4MbR/1646302272652.jpg (https://ibb.co/k4bCDdz)
https://i.ibb.co/Yy0MZz1/1646302272671.jpg (https://ibb.co/k9mf1Rw)
https://i.ibb.co/0yvF6sM/1646302272689.jpg (https://ibb.co/WvjPMVy)

[Aktungbby]

/\ YEAH that's original quilted lining $tuff, and hand-stitched; expensive even back in the day. No modern reproduction, incl. mine, even comes close to that high-end quality. Officers bought their commissions and their own uniforms in them-thar daze...this guy had $hekels and liked lookin' good...and stayin' warm!

[Rhodes]

Found this site: http://www.victorianstrollers.co.uk/stevesuniforms/ranks.html

It mentions Rank: Colonel, Collar: One Star and Crown.

http://www.victorianstrollers.co.uk/stevesuniforms/OFFICER RANK/1856fieldoffrear.jpg
Field Officers rear skirt detail - similar to the back of the coat.



But Engineer and Artillery Officers through out the Victorian Era:
Cuff braiding for Lieutenant on left and Captain on Right.

http://www.victorianstrollers.co.uk/stevesuniforms/OFFICER RANK/Artilery lt and capt.jpg
That last is almost identical.

Captain as also One Star and One Crown, but different backs and the sleeves have just one bar.

:06::06::06:
At least I am incline to say that the coat is from the Royal Engineers. Will try to focus my search on that for this time, to narrow a bit.

[Aktungbby]

BINGO! the other factor I couldn't quite factor was the button count https://i.ibb.co/QCrzPYG/DSC-2075.jpg Your OP has eight; my 'generals' tunic & my stuff only seven and my engineers tunic nine?https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/8c/41/f68c41b6864ede942c56b5ad6aef9e00.jpg:hmmm: Your marvelous site site https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=815&pictureid=12425 similar to your OP incl. rear skirt 6 button detailhttps://i.ibb.co/XL516Ks/DSC-2080.jpg throwing in a captain's exact cuff braiding on right https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=815&pictureid=12424 and having pored over 1000's of Firman buttons: both fusiliers, Eich's grenadiers, Royal Engineers (and the Confederate ones!:yeah:) to no avail, my 'general' is reduced in rank to an 8- button Captain! Now, Aktung's head will be even bigger than it was before. Thank God! Now my headsize will shrink back down...temporarily!!!:O: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHpCiplXUAE3s1I.jpg EDIT: Our posts crossed: Firman & Sons Royal Engineer button https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dyQAAOSwgvlh8BjE/s-l1600.png:hmmm: PLUS: the white cuff and collar facings in your OP have me baffled...still working on that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facing_colour Example: Welch, Manchester, and Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry had White facing: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2a/0e/44/2a0e440f1ac92a661ae6437f65bdf2c2--victorian-era-cornwall.jpg < however this particular Cornwall captains 8-button tunic is square-collared ca 1892.... too late in Victorian era.

[Rhodes]

Thanks Aktungbby! :Kaleun_Salute:



I also found http://www.uniformology.com. Already contacted them also.

The problem may be that the coat is from a "inter-period" and so not much happened in that time, so to speech.

Before, Napoleonic Wars and so. After, changing uniforms, Crimea - more recordings, images, etc.

Still: captain rank (most probably), possibly mess dress? Then again, those images in the site have the captain with only one narrow twisted gold wire cords in the shoulder, what I posted have 2.



And the button having that ball with flame - grenadiers or engineers with number 3 - 3rd London Royal Engineers regiment? :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

This just in from London: Message:
A museum in Portugal has received a donated original captain's uniform tunic with front buttons made by your esteemed firm which it is gathering information on. The 8 front buttons are labelled "LONDON" with a centered "3" below a grenadier grenade all within oakleaves. Could I know what regiment it represented? Thanks in advance. p.v. d*** response Hello Mr D***,
Please send a clear image of the front and back and we will ty to help.
Kind regards,
Tony Kelly
Sales Manager Dear Tony: I only have a front view. Loved all the Confederate buttons too! I'm a long time re-enactor on the Southern side. Thanks again for your help, P. V. D*** - & today: The button appears to be 3rd Battalion City of London Regiment Royal Fusiliers.
Probably an officer quality button.
Kind regards,
Tony:yeah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_(City_of_London)_Battalion,_London_Regiment
In 1890, the unit's affiliation was changed again and it became the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment). By now, the Railway connection had disappeared, and the unit had adopted the scarlet coat, blue facings and cap badge of the Royal Fusiliers.From Caton Woodville plates: London Regimental full dress: https://gwfattachments.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2016_10/580e9933b0898_LondonRegiment01eCitybattalions1910-7-LR(ShinySeventh)(RichardCatonWoodville)alamyversio n.jpg.16010fef8f8d3c3b3c5414277d7bdc29.jpg https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/244367-london-regt-battalions-full-dress-uniforms-caton-woodville-plates/ These three plates by Richard Caton Woodville Jr., appear in His Majesty's Territorial Army (Walter Richards, 1910) but unfortunately the specific London Regiment battalions are not explicitly identified. Instead the plates are frustratingly captioned as (L-R) City of London Battalions, then County of London Battalions twice. Here are the uniform and facing colours for each battalion from the Army List: Unit ; Tunic color; Facings color;
1st London Division
1st (City of) London Brigade
1 /LR (Royal Fusiliers) Scarlet Blue
2/LR (Royal Fusiliers) Scarlet Blue
3/LR (Royal Fusiliers) Scarlet Blue (Changed in 1890's...)
4/LR (Royal Fusiliers) Scarlet Blue
2nd (City of) London Brigade
5/LR (London Rifle Brigade) Rifle Green Scarlet
6/LR (City of London Rifles) Rifle Green Scarlet
7/LR Scarlet Buff ...from similar regiment's scarlet and Buff??
8/LR (Post Office Rifles) Rifle Green Blue https://gwfattachments.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2018_08/924C9D4D-FB44-4DC9-A39E-E5D4FC8F4EC6.jpeg.0f9c251daaa44321d577f286d32c8632 .jpeg 1861 < (note rounded collar) First Officer’s commissions and the unit formally adopted as the 3rd City

of London Rifle Volunteer Corps. It adopted a scarlet uniform with buff

facings and brass buttons, at first with a bearskin and red plume, later

with a kepi. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/244367-london-regt-battalions-full-dress-uniforms-caton-woodville-plates/page/4/

[Rhodes]

YES! :Kaleun_Salute::Kaleun_Thumbs_Up::Kaleun_Cheers:
If not, from now on, it is! :D


Manny thanks Aktungbby (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=313053)

[Aktungbby]

Yer welcome: This also caught my eye : Victorian full-dress
mess uniforms ca: WWI for London Regiment Battalion's full dress & mess tunics https://gwfattachments.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2016_12/combo-1.jpg.a65cbe50a740d8846580d30b6a234660.jpg:hmmm: I had spotted it a week ago but couldn't find it again till today:k_confused: note: the tunic is square (1890's)collared. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/.jpgOfficers_of_3rd_Battalion%2C_The_Royal_Fusilie rs_%28City_of_London_Regiment%29%2C_at_Battalion_T raining_at_Tucker%27s_Town%2C_Bermuda%2C_1905.jpg< Officers of 3rd Battalion, The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment), at Battalion Training at Tucker's Town, Bermuda, 1905. there are eight captains featured in this photo from 'our supposed regiment'; Captain John Francis Wolseley
Captain Mortimer Pawson Hancock
Captain William Lascelles Fitzgerald Blake
Captain Richard Hare
Captain Edward Charles Jennings
Captain Charles Andrew Hamilton Palairet
Captain (Brevet Major) Reginald Seaburne
Captain Sydney Phillips one might possibly belong to his daddy's dress 1856 tunic in this thread....:hmmm: 'Twixt getting amalgamated, subsumed, reaffiliated and reformed into other British regiments;:o the hunt for the captain has been a good one! :arrgh!:

[Rhodes]

The Hunt for the Red Coat Captain Army! :D