About merchant ship wartime colours [Archive]

View Full Version : About merchant ship wartime colours

gap

10-15-21, 08:36 AM

Interesting read:

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/threads/wartime-colours.29141/

summarizing:

Grey paint was the general rule for Allied merchant vessels. Some ships had funnel tops and top half of masts painted white so to blend with the sky.

Apparently there was no official rule prescribing the above, so the grey paint was more a matter of common selse by shipmasters/shipowners than else.

As a consequence of the previous point, there was not a sudden transition from peacetime colours to wartime grey. Some ships - probably the ones whose trading routes were closer to the main war theatres - were repainted at the earliest opportunity after the war broke out, whereas a few others are reported to have switched colours as late as January 1941.

Ships built during the war were delivered in grey paint. Late in the war a few Liberty ships might have sported dazzle comoufflages too, but that was not universal.

The implementation of safety rules was somehow more strict for ships sailing in convoys. These rules included:

avoiding bright hull/superstructure colours;
not having the ship name painted on the hull;
no dark funnel smokes (this would have ruled out old coal-burning steamers from convoys).

As far as I can understand, breaking the first of the aforementioned rules would have had no other consequence than a harsh reprimand by the convoy commodore, which implies that, occasionally, ships in peacetime colours might still be found within Allied convoys.

Demonstration of the above, is that - as reported by a WWII survivor - neutral ships retained their company colours for most of the war even when sailing in convoys. If I can add a personal note, this might have been sort of a nonsense. According to German engagement rules any ship sailing within Allied convoys, even though belonging to a neutral nation, would have been a valid target, and retaining peacetime colours would only have made her an easier prey. In other words, convoy protection would have nullified "neutrality privileges" or, even worse, it could have rendered them counterproductive, but this is probably something which was not so clear at that time.

If you have any other information on the subject, be it in form of pictures, documents, first-hand reports or simple impressions, you are welcomed to share them here :salute:

gap

10-15-21, 08:44 AM

Quick addendum regarding Liberty ships and dazzle camo patterns:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?p=822146&sid=9ecf7b69c2e0c90be52136334d1eee0d#p822146

No dazzle's at all on the Atlantic for Liberty freighters (or tankers).

The only dazzle painted liberties I've seen were the Navy conversions for support and repair ships, predominantly found in the Pacific.

Ocean Gray is often cited as the as-build color for some Liberty ship yards, but there is a huge amount of variation (and weathering) in actual use.

kapuhy

10-15-21, 09:14 AM

Thanks for sharing this :yeah:

I was recently trying to find information on the same subject, namely when did painting schemes change from what's visible on pre-war photos to "gray is good for everyone" approach, but didn't find anything other than incidental data. Your post and links clear up a lot.

Edit:

as reported by a WWII survivor - neutral ships retained their company colours for most of the war even when sailing in convoys. If I can add a personal note, this might have been sort of a nonsense. According to German engagement rules any ship sailing within Allied convoys, even though belonging to a neutral nation, would have been a valid target, and retaining peacetime colours would only have made her an easier prey. In other words, convoy protection would have nullified "neutrality privileges"

Makes sense though if these neutral ships joined convoy only occasionally / not for entire voyage. As soon as they dispersed from convoy for any reason (like, say, Spanish ship crossing from America in convoy then diverting to Spain), neutral colours would at least give Germans a pause, whereas if they were camouflaged they would likely be treated as combatant.

Edit 2: Some photos:

These we know from TWoS loading screens:
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/12/03/13/6939240-6454549-Support_Over_four_years_the_convoys_delivered_7_00 0_warplanes_5_-a-83_1543843625907.jpg
Seems at least some ships wear black hull and brownish superstructure.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/NINTCHDBPICT000453575461.jpg
Tanker in the middle, black hull with company colors on the funnel.

Convoy in 1942, Hampton Roads. Shows merchant ships in grey, with brown decks, hulls painted with camouflage stripes:

https://i.imgur.com/ePxDlao.jpg

There's a lot of pictures here from convoy dated 1941 - ships mostly gray, with some like brownish colour (or perhaps just rust?):

https://www.barnorama.com/vintage-pictures-of-an-atlantic-convoy-from-1941/

gap

10-15-21, 01:36 PM

Thanks for sharing this :yeah:

I was recently trying to find information on the same subject, namely when did painting schemes change from what's visible on pre-war photos to "gray is good for everyone" approach, but didn't find anything other than incidental data. Your post and links clear up a lot.

Glad that you find my post useful. When I looked for the missing information I had exactly your beautifully painted ships in mind! :yeah:

If you ask me, the bulk of British and Commonwealth vessels, especially deep-sea ships and ships expected to sail in convoys, should start painted in peacetime colours and turn grey within the first one or two weeks of war, at max.

Conversely, coastal vessels, especially the ones belonging to far British colonies and to other cobelligerents, could be made to follow a somewhat slower re-painting curve, some old and lesser exposed ships retaining their vivid company colours until mid to late 1940 - or even later for the USA and Latin American countries which entered the war at a later stage and were substantially umprepared to it. A few inshore vessels which only operated within the relatively safe waters of ports or in their immediate vicinity, e.g. lighters, barges, tugboats, and the likes, could even be let to retain their colors (mixed with a generous dose of rust) until the end of the conflict.

Makes sense though if these neutral ships joined convoy only occasionally / not for entire voyage. As soon as they dispersed from convoy for any reason (like, say, Spanish ship crossing from America in convoy then diverting to Spain), neutral colours would at least give Germans a pause, whereas if they were camouflaged they would likely be treated as combatant.

You make a good point here but you probably chose the wrong example: though a few Spanish ships and boats were torpedoed and sunk by the Kriegsmarine, I doubt that the vessels of a neutral but Axis-friendly nation would have been allowed to sail within Allied convoys. I think I have even read reports of Spanish ships seized by the RN due to the ambiguous stance of their owning companies :03::yep:

gap

10-15-21, 01:57 PM

Edit 2: Some photos:

mmm... I am confident that at some point we will find some pictures confirming the presence of ships in company colours within convoys, but it seems to me that the first two photographs were digitally colorized (if so, I would be curious to see the B/W originals).

The last picture seem original though, but all the portrayed ships look to me as being plain grey, except for the vessels on the center left - probably an auxiliary vessel - which sports a dazzle pattern.

gap

10-15-21, 03:29 PM

@ kapuhy I have finally found the B/W originals of the "suspect" pictures you had posted before.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Atlantic_convoy_from_Sunderland_in_WWII.jpg

From Wikimedia Commons:

Description An Atlantic convoy underway as seen from a Royal Air Force Short Sunderland flying boat.
Date circa 1943
Source Dennis Richards and Hilary St. George Saunders: Royal Air Force 1939–1945. Volume II: The Fight Avails; London, HMSO, 1953. Photo [1]
Author Unknown author

It is hard to say from this picture as shadows might milead our eyes, but yes, several ships in the picture above seem to have black hulls and bright supestructures.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgvAix1WkAEqI3j?format=jpg&name=small

from the Russia in Estonia Twitter profile:

The 31st of August 1941, 7 ships of the USSR allies in the war with Nazi Germany reached the port of Arkhangelsk. This convoy under the code name "Dervish" was the first to supply the USSR with military equipment and armaments according to the lendlease programme.

The central ship has black hull and a dark-painted funnel with three brighter bands. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dervish_(1941)#Ships), Operation Dervish convoy was composed of the following merchant ships:

Lancastrian Prince, owned by Prince Line (Furnes, Withy & Co.)
New Westminster City, owned by Reardon Smith Line
Esneh, owned by Moss Hutchinson Line
Trehata, owned by Hain Steamship Co.
Llanstephan Castle, owned by Union Castle Line
Alchiba, owned by Van Nievelt, Goudriaan & Co.

Add to them RFA Aldersdale (Admiralty-owned fleet oiler). Discarding for obvious reasons the latter, a quick internet research tells me that neither of the above shipping copanies used a similar funnel pattern. The attribution might be wrong, or further research might be required, nonetheless the fact remains: that looks lika a war convoy, and at least one of the ships composing it is not painted grey :up:

Mister_M

10-16-21, 11:08 AM

The last picture seem original though, but all the portrayed ships look to me as being plain grey, except for the vessels on the center left - probably an auxiliary vessel - which sports a dazzle pattern.

They are all grey with camo skin ("dazzle"). :yep:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Atlantic_convoy_from_Sunderland_in_WWII.jpg

It is hard to say from this picture as shadows might milead our eyes, but yes, several ships in the picture above seem to have black hulls and bright supestructures.

Perhaps a slow convoy with old steam ships still burning coal (they have a stern of the old type), small ships of less value which are not worth to camouflage with grey paint...

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/m/merchant-ship-shapes/_jcr_content/body/media_asset_1016572762/image.img.jpg/1541772365144.jpg (from here : https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/m/merchant-ship-shapes.html)

gap

10-16-21, 12:31 PM

They are all grey with camo skin ("dazzle"). :yep:

It is my impression that dazzle camoufflages were only used on naval and auxiliary vessels, or at least I have never seen a merchant ship in complex camo scheme. To me, only the ship on the right has a dazzle pattern painted on her hull and I suspect her to be an auxiliary, but again my eyes are not very sharp

Perhaps a slow convoy with old steam ships still burning coal (they have a stern of the old type), small ships of less value which are not worth to camouflage with grey paint...

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/m/merchant-ship-shapes/_jcr_content/body/media_asset_1016572762/image.img.jpg/1541772365144.jpg (from here : https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/m/merchant-ship-shapes.html)

Yes, from their look those are definitely not "modern" freighters. As for them not being worth a dozen cans of grey paint, well, according to one of the posters in the forum thread I linked at post #1, a decent grey coat could be obtained by mixing black and white paint, which for sure wasn't in short supply at that time :)

kapuhy

10-16-21, 12:37 PM

Perhaps a slow convoy with old steam ships still burning coal (they have a stern of the old type), small ships of less value which are not worth to camouflage with grey paint...

I doubt cost of paint would be a consideration compared to any ship's value, (especially since paint needed was probably already on board - as noted in gap's link, all they needed is to mix black and white paint they probably had stored since these were most common colours during peace) but with ships operating in low risk areas their captains could indeed decide the risk is too small to warrant the time and effort needed to repaint them.

Edit: ninja'd :)

Some other findings:

- German supply ship Roda sinking after being torpedoed in 1940. Interesting example of keeping black/white painting and funnel colours even after being taken into navy service:

https://shipwrecks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/German_steamship_Roda_sinking.jpg

As for rules for peace-painted ships and coal burners in convoys, there were obviously exceptions, as shown by photo here (atlantic convoy in 1941, phot taken by Robert Capa):

https://www.barnorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/22-atlantic_convoy.jpg

Mister_M

10-16-21, 04:17 PM

... black and white paint, which for sure wasn't in short supply at that time :)

This is just your opinion. :O:

I doubt cost of paint would be a consideration compared to any ship's value, (especially since paint needed was probably already on board - as noted in gap's link, all they needed is to mix black and white paint they probably had stored since these were most common colours during peace) but with ships operating in low risk areas their captains could indeed decide the risk is too small to warrant the time and effort needed to repaint them.

In real life, I don't know how much time it was needed to repaint a whole ship. Maybe lack of time ? Lack of crew ? Lack of equipment (in wartime, all is restrained) ? Lack of... money (and you will have to repaint again the ship after the war) ?... Or even other things that we just cannot have an idea or we just cannot imagine...

As for rules for peace-painted ships and coal burners in convoys, there were obviously exceptions, as shown by photo here (atlantic convoy in 1941, phot taken by Robert Capa):

https://www.barnorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/22-atlantic_convoy.jpg

One photo cannot say anything about the whole story.

Maybe coal burners were not repainted grey because it was totally useless to try to camouflage a ship which produces so much black smoke !...

:k_confused:

gap

10-16-21, 06:47 PM

This is just your opinion. :O:

Not exactly my own opinion:

Its common sense and natural to use camouflage John.
All ships use more black and white paint than any other colour so a mixture of these would soon produce grey in an emergency.
I was at sea from 1936 to 1956.

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/threads/wartime-colours.29141/#post-356479

In real life, I don't know how much time it was needed to repaint a whole ship. Maybe lack of time ? Lack of crew ? Lack of equipment (in wartime, all is restrained) ? Lack of... money (and you will have to repaint again the ship after the war) ?... Or even other things that we just cannot have an idea or we just cannot imagine...

I don't think the factors you are mentioning could affect big shipping companies, but indeed they might have played a role for small shipowners

One photo cannot say anything about the whole story.

Maybe coal burners were not repainted grey because it was totally useless to try to camouflage a ship which produces so much black smoke !...

:k_confused:

Maybe, but again:

I was a seaman all through the war and sailed in many convoys.Convoy Commodores were very strict and would reprimand any masters of ships who had bright colours visible,as occasionally some ships had red lead showing.
Emitting smoke from funnels was also taboo.

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/threads/wartime-colours.29141/#post-357900

As noted by kapuhy, brightly painted ships and old coal-burning tramps sailing within convoys might have been not too an uncommon exception to the above rules, but I would expect them to become rarer and rarer as the war progresses.

By the way of that amazing picture by Robert Capa I think I have found the full set of photographs:

https://www.lasegundaguerra.com/viewtopic.php?t=13661
https://izismile.com/2017/06/01/a_travel_to_the_past_atlantic_convoy_back_from_194 1_32_pics.html

Capa documented at least two Atlantic convoys. Apparently this set is from his first crossing, which took place in December 1941.

Please note this other freighter with dark hull, bluff superstructure and white/blue funnel from the same convoy...

http://s10.postimg.cc/7ylwd5ajt/NYC148410.jpg

...and the bad paintwork on these tankers

http://s30.postimg.cc/q2nwe69ip/0_7ab80_eb7bf4ba_orig.jpg

http://s30.postimg.cc/9dr1w02b5/Wonderful_Colour_Photographs_of_World_War_II_by.jp g

@ kapuhy good finding! :up:

Aktungbby

10-24-21, 01:18 AM

If you have any other information on the subject, be it in form of pictures, documents, first-hand reports or simple impressions, you are welcomed to share them here :salute: https://maritime.org/doc/camo/index.htm https://maritime.org/doc/camo/img/cover.jpg Revised
June, 1942

This publication is CONFIDENTIAL and shall be handled in accordance with the provisions of Article 76, U.S. Navy Regulations. It shall be given a wide circulation among commissioned personnel.

The publication shall be destroyed by burning when no longer required. No report of destruction need be submitted. https://maritime.org/doc/camo/img/plate11.jpg<TRANSPORT AP 21 Class
Measure 16 - Thayer System PLATE XI

https://maritime.org/doc/camo/img/plate12.jpg < PLATE XII - Cargo Ship AK 25 Class - Thayer System 24

INTRODUCTION
Definition of Ship Camouflage
Ship Camouflage may be defined as the means by which the visibility of a ship is reduced, or the means by which deception is caused in course or range estimation, or in class identification.
The most common method of attaining these ends is through some form of special painting, and this book is limited to camouflage by that means.
This is the Second Revision of SHIPS-2, and it supplants all previous issues in their entirety. Further revision should be expected and encouraged in a subject in which practice is far from becoming crystallized, and this book is therefore issued in loose leaf form. It is requested that pertinent comments be submitted and that instances of notably effective and ineffective camouflage be reported. Special forms for making camouflage reports have been printed and are issued with this book.
The Selection of a Suitable System
Ship camouflage measures have two general purposes:
(a) The Reduction of Visibility - Protective Coloration
(b) Course or Range Deception - Generally Pattern Systems
The systems included in this book belong in the first category. though Measure 16 contains some elements of deception.
No one type of camouflage can possibly give any protection under all situations. The method of ship painting must be adapted to the tactical situation which is involved, and a radical change in the tactics of either offense or defense should entail a re-examination of the suitability of the type of camouflage already in use. A method of ship painting which is intended to give protection during a period of greatest danger may at other times be of very high visibility.
Measures for reducing visibility have best chance of success at night, in gray weather or on hazy days when visibility is limited. Very light colored ships are best at night except in the glare of searchlight. Light colored ships are best against periscopic observation and dark ships are best against air observation. When light ships are clearly visible it is easy to judge target angle and make identification. Dark ships are much better in this respect.
The systems presented are to be placed in effect when ordered by competent authority. A summary of conditions under which the various methods will prove most effective is given on page 4, and a fuller explanation will be found under each camouflage measure.
APPROXIMATE EFFECTIVENESS OF CAMOUFLAGE MEASURES
FOR SURFACE SHIPS
Useful for Protection against Submarine attack, where aerial observation is a lesser factor.
(A) In northerly waters with much overcast weather and where attacks are prevalent at night.
Measure 16-Thayer System
Measure 13-Haze Gray System
(B) In Atlantic or Pacific Coastal waters where weather is generally sunny, visibility is high, and bright moonlight is common at night.
Measure 14-Ocean Gray System
Useful where greatest danger is from the air and high surface visibility must be accepted.
Measure 21-Navy Blue System

Useful for combatant ships operating in areas where greatest danger might be expected from gunnery action either from shore batteries or from enemy surface ships. Moderately high visibility to aerial observation at close ranges.
Measure 22-Graded System

MEASURE 16 - THAYER SYSTEM

Effectiveness

Lowest visibility to surface observers on moonless nights and in overcast weather.

High visibility down-sun or down-moon in bright clear weather, but reduced visibility up-sun and up-moon in all weathers.

Especially well adapted for winter use in Northern areas where nights are long and days frequently overcast. It would prove useful against submarines in any area where attacks occur mostly at night, but in bright weather it would be very visible to surface raiders, or to high-flying aircraft, when observed down-sun.

Some deception as to target angle has been reported for both day and night operations.

Special Characteristics

The special feature of this system is its changeable character. At low levels of illumination a blue paint will appear relatively lighter and a red paint will appear relatively darker than these two paints appear in daylight. This visual change, known as the Purkinje effect, is utilized in the Thayer System. The pure light blue which is employed has been selected because it will appear practically like white paint at low levels of illumination. The ship will therefore appear like a white ship on moonless nights or during twilight when white or very light ships are best for reduced visibility. During daylight hours or under bright moonlight the pattern will be apparent and will produce some deception in the estimation of the target angle. A darker blue would produce more deception but can not be used because it will not appear white at night. The purity of the color is an important factor in the Purkinje effect, and even a slight admixture of black in the paint will reduce its effectiveness at night.

Colors Employed: Thayer Blue and White

Type Plans

Typical deception patterns of the Thayer System are shown on PLATES IV to XII inclusive. Patterns are shown for both port and starboard sides, and should be so used in order to get the best end-on effects. Though shown for certain specific classes of ships, the designs can and should be adapted to other types and classes
Basically, Liberty Ships were painted in Measure 14, overall 5-O Ocean Gray...in FS #, that equates to 35164.
Some ships under navy control were painted in Ms 21 and 3x camo schemes, but the vast majority, including the O'Brien, were Ms 14. Here's the official instructions:
Vertical Surfaces:
Vertical surfaces from boot-topping to top of superstructure masses, Ocean Gray 5-O.
Pole masts, yards, slender upper works above level of top superstructure masses, Haze Gray, 5-H.
Horizontal Surfaces:
Horizontal surfaces, Deck Blue, 20-B.
Wood Decks.
Wood decks except on submarines and carriers shall be darkened to the color Deck Blue. Deck Blue paint shall be used in lieu of stain for this purpose.
Canvas Covers.
Canvas covers visible from the outside vessel are to be dyed a color corresponding to Deck Blue.
Notes:
The camouflage painting need not be exact or carried into corners. Small gear, wires, rigging, and areas permanently in shadow, as under boats, etc., need not be painted with the camouflage colors. There is no objection to exact or careful painting which may be desired for the sake of good appearance at close range.
All bright or shiny objects, no matter how insignificant, shall be painted, covered, or removed http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineLibrary/photos/images/g100000/g172893.jpg <klik to enlargeOf course all the camo in the world didn't help the Jeremiah O'Brien recently...https://divcomplatform.s3.amazonaws.com/www.nationalfisherman.com/images/014b62dba1efdb3ea99294eb8b3b9121.png:doh: ATTN modders: The recent photo in the SF Chronicle is a a 'no bullshot of an actual burning Liberty ship. if ever! I cannot believe some adept modder can't adapt this to SH-V at least; to effect 'total immersion' realistic graphics of a burning WWII cargo ship!!??:arrgh!: Then of course there's the USS Allegan AK-225 in a less than dazzling camo worth noting!!?? Her camouflage is Measure 32 Design 1F. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/USS_Allegan_%28AK-225%29.jpg

U-190

10-24-21, 09:18 AM

Absolutely brilliant! :up:

Aktungbby

10-24-21, 10:28 AM

Not really; but thanks!:salute: the subject came up in Atoka220's thread: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2772944&postcount=1 And I responded accordingly as I'm often aboard the USS Jeremiah O'Brian parked next to the Gato class USS Pampanito in SF's Fisherman's Wharf. The photos of the warehouse fire that scorched the Normandy survivor are terribly authentic; no imho 'bout it. Seeing such in real time should be a modders dream as to authenticity!! https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2772978&postcount=8

Mister_M

10-24-21, 02:51 PM

"(B) In Atlantic or Pacific Coastal waters where weather is generally sunny, visibility is high, and bright moonlight is common at night.
Measure 14-Ocean Gray System"

That's very strange because with this light grey painted on the hull, ships will be very well noticeable at night when there is moonlight... :hmmm: :doh: At least, it's my opinion... Perhaps moonlight is not enough to spot light grey ships' hull from far distances... but this would be surprising to me.

Else, interesting discussion here : http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/33023.aspx

gap

10-24-21, 03:29 PM

Recently I have been digging on the internet for information on the ensigns worn by various types of British and Commonwealth vessels, and I thought I would share my findings here in case someone is interested.

Commonwealth merchant vessels
Looking into Lloyd's records of merchant ships owned by Commonwealth steamship companies, I was surprised to discover that all of them were registered as British-flagged ones, no matter if their companies were actually based in the UK or not.

The 2,053-ton bulk carrier Magog, for example, was owned by Canada Steamship Lines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Steamship_Lines), a Montreal-based shipping company. As expected, uboat.net (https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/408.html) reports the ship as Canadian but convoyweb.org (http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/hx/index.html?hx.php?convoy=52!~hxmain) and, more importantly, the 1939 Lloyd Register (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/39/39b0555.pdf) have her as British. I have checked many other Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, etc. vessels, and they all were registered as British. As far as I can see there are two possible explaination to that:

all the merchant vessels of the Commonwealth wore the Red Ensign;

vessels belonging to (former) British colonies wore the Red Ensign (optionally) defaced with each country's national emblem, but Red Ensign variants were still officially considered (and registered) as British flags.

In order to investigate the veracity of the last point I have checked many photographs. Discernig small flag details based on pictures which usually have a poor resolution is not so easy, nonetheless I think I have found a few photographs which seem to confirm my hypothesis.

https://i.imgur.com/2edRP2n.jpgThe picture above and the one below portray the Morialta (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/39/39b1052.pdf) and the Ulooloo (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/39/39b0928.pdf) respectively, both owned by Adelaide Steamship Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_Steamship_Company)

https://live.staticflickr.com/613/33106848842_ec740afe77_b.jpgBoth vessels have a Red Ensign hoisted on the flagstaff. The Union Jack on flag's canton is easily discernible, but can you see the white spot beneath it? Well, I am not 100% sure, but that might be one of the stars defacing the Australian Red Ensign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Red_Ensign)

One last picture, this time of the Princess Marguerite (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/39/39b0723.pdf), a passenger ferry managed by British Columbia Coast Steamships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Railway_Coast_Service), a division of the Montreal-based Canadian Pacific Railway Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Railway)

https://i.imgur.com/CtjrsjW.jpgAgain, a brighter spot is barely discernible; that migh be the bottom portion of the coat of arms defacing the Canadian Red Ensign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Red_Ensign)

Catapult Aircraft Merchant ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAM_ship)/Merchant Aircraft Carriers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_aircraft_carrier)
Those were merchant vessels, owned by the Ministry of War Transport but managed by private companies and commanded/crewed by civils, threfore the regular civil (red) ensign was flown aboard them.

Armed Merchant Cruisers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_merchantman#Armed_merchant_cruisers)
They were merchant ships requisitioned by the Admiralty and commissioned in the Royal Navy for convoy defense. They were given the HMS prefix and, as any other naval vessel, they wore the White Ensign.

Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Fleet_Auxiliary)
Mostly oilers, depot ships, fleet tenders, etc, either purpose-built or requisitioned for that purpose. They were commanded and crewed by members of the Royal Naval Reserve, they were given the RFA prefix and they wore the Admiralty Blue Ensign (former Transport Ensign) (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-rfas.html#rfas): a Blue Ensign defaced with a horizontal yellow anchor.

Source: http://www.historicalrfa.org/archived-stories68/2537-the-ensign-of-the-rfa

Q-ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship)
Basically heavily armed AMCs in disguise.

In 1939 Winston Churchill gave authority for a number of merchantmen to be requisitioned for service as Q-ships, although for security purposes they were referred to as Special service Freighters. A fleet of nine small mainly coal-burning vessels were acquired , six for deep-sea work and three for coastal work. All were commissioned as HM ships under their original names but were given RFA cover names and on entering harbour and while in harbour they wore the Blue Ensign, behaved as RFA’s and adopted the RFA commercial practices. None of them was really suitable for their intended roles and met with a complete lack of success. Their Q-ship service officially ended on 2 March 1941

Source: http://www.historicalrfa.org/rfa-chatsgrove-ship-information

Royal Mail Ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Mail_Ship)
A number o merchant vessels, especially ferries and ocean liners, were given the RMS prefix and designated to carry mail under contract to the British Royal Mail.
The Flags of the Word (https://www.fotw.info/flags/gb-rmail.html#bens) project lists a Royal Mail Blue Ensign and the National Maritime Museum of Greenwich (https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-762) has one of these ensigns in its collection. Apparently this flag was worn by RM ships after 1902, but I ignore wether it was still in use at the oneset of WWII, when most RM ships were requisitioned as troop transports and swithched to other flags.

Hospital Ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_ship)
During WWII the Ministry of War requsitioned a number of private-owned ocean liners for use as hospital ships. The appearance of those vessels was regulated by the Hague Convention of 1907 and subsequent international agreements.

It had long been acknowledged that the system of marking hospital ships adopted in 1907, at a time when air forces did not exist, was completely inadequate. Hospital ships were to be painted white outside with a horizontal band of green or red, and were to fly the red cross flag. The experts who met in 1937 recommended that large red crosses on a white ground should be painted on the hull and deck of hospital ships. During the Second World War, the belligerents often adopted that means of identification. It is clear from the records that the lack of an up-to-date system of marking, visible at a great distance, was the cause of most of the attacks made on hospital ships during the Second World War.

[...]

The national flag of the belligerent must be flown. On the other hand, a hospital ship will not fly the pennant hoisted by warships.
Hospital ships belonging to a neutral State and assisting a belligerent must fly their national flag as well as that of the belligerent concerned. The records of the 1907 Conference at The Hague indicate where the flags should be flown: the flag of the neutral State is to be flown in its usual place, and the flag of the belligerent together with the red cross flag is to be flown from the mainmast.
Last and most important, hospital ships must fly a white flag with a red cross. That provision already existed in the earlier instruments, but the 1949 Diplomatic Conference decided to specify where it should be flown, although that place had already become traditional as may be seen from the reference above: it is to be flown at the mainmast, as high as possible. Why should this be so? Because it is the part of the ship which first appears over the horizon. The white flag with a red cross will therefore be placed above the flag of the belligerent.

source: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/0/322c86ef32f494e0c12563cd00424636

Summing up, the general rule for hospital ships was to fly their national ensign "in its usual place" (i.e. at ship's stern while underway) + red cross flag on the mainmast "as high as possible" + the national ensign of the concerned belligerent if the ship belonged to a neutral country.

Now the matter is: which was the ensign used aboard Commonwealth hospital ships? The following document (p. 7, fig. 9), gives a contradictory answer:

https://maritimearchaeologytrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Hospital-Ships_Southampton_Roger-Burns_WEB.pdf

The flag shown in fig. 9, p. 7 is a Board of Trade Blue Ensign (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-mtrad.html), yet the caption reads: HMHS Lady Connaught Flag: “A Blue Ensign Flat”.

A thread on Great War Forum (https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/236980-ensign-flown-by-british-hospital-ships/) sheds some light on the issue:

A recent thread about the correct prefix for hospital ships ventured into some interesting byways which included debate about the ensign flown by hospital ships. It was pointed out that hospital ships were not commissioned into the Royal Navy and therefore would not have flown the white ensign, and that all warrants to fly the plain blue ensign were cancelled in August 1914, so the choice was between the red ensign and a blue ensign defaced with a horizontal anchor, sometimes known as the Admiralty Ensign. For anyone interested in this debate, I have just come across a 1917 HMSO pamphlet entitled 'Correspondence with the German Government regarding the Alleged Misuse of British Hospital Ships' which, as well as being an interesting read, seems to resolve the ensign question.

The pamphlet contains memoranda from the German Government (delivered via United States embassies) documenting the allegations of misuse and advising Britain that it intends as a consequence to treat as belligerent any hospital ship encountered in the southern North Sea, the English Channel and parts of the Mediterranean. The pamphlet also contains the British Government's detailed rebuttals to each of the allegations. One of these contains the sentence (p 12), 'All British hospital ships have their names painted distinctly on them in the usual place, and all fly the Red Cross flag and the British defaced Blue Ensign worn by transports.'

The text above is relative to WWI, nonetheless a similar restriction to the one of 1914 was issued in 1939 (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-blenr.html) ("All Blue Ensign warrants were cancelled in 1939"), so it is unlikely for Britsh hospital ships of WWII to have flown the "Blue Ensign flat". Instead of that, the probably following the WWI usage of the Transport Ensign (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-rfas.html#rfas), or they might have switched to the Board of Trade Ensign (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-mtrad.html).

Infantry landing ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_ship,_infantry)
According to Wikipedia (mentioning as reference: Bruce, Colin J. Invaders, Chatham Publishing, London, 1999 ):

Some of the LSIs were commissioned into the Royal Navy, received navy crews, and flew the White Ensign, while most retained their civilian crews and flew the Red Ensign.

Troop transports (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troopship)
Here I wish we had more information. The one source I have found so far is a comprehensive study on British ensigns published in 2015 (https://www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/the_colours_of_the_fleet.pdf)

Among the other flags, it mentions (at p. 29):

Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Circular Picture of Three Masted Ship at Sea. Available for use on land, and on any vessels that the department might operate. It was originally the Board of Trade ensign, and has had a variety of uses. In the 1920s troopships carrying army or air force personnel flew it and in the 1960s UK Trade Commissions used it as a car flag.

Whether the usage of the Board of Trade Blue Ensign (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-mtrad.html) started in the 20's lasted until WWII or not is a mystery to me, but it is likely that, similar to infantry landing ships, some troopers manned by civilian crews might have flown the Red Ensign.

Summary of the flags mentioned in this post and their usage:

https://i.imgur.com/QITqBdT.png?1 Merchant vessels / Some troop transports (?) / Some Landing Ships / CAM/MAC ships
British Red Ensign *

https://i.imgur.com/8mlEs86.gif?1 As above
Australian Red Ensign

https://i.imgur.com/23WDUfR.png?1 As above
Canadian Red Ensign

https://i.imgur.com/an4fdj2.gif?1 As above
New Zealand Red Ensign

https://i.imgur.com/Kt3Ut7a.gif?1 As above
South African Red Ensign **

https://i.imgur.com/EPzytgw.gif?1 Royal Mail Ships (?)
Royal Mail Ensign

https://i.imgur.com/LMRPrg4.gif?1 Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels / Q-ships / Hospital Ships (?)
Admiralty, Government
Service or Transport Ensign

https://i.imgur.com/l5SSbxu.gif?1 Troop Transports (?) / Hospital Ships (?)
Board of Trade Ensign

https://i.imgur.com/WzVGntG.gif?1 Vessels commissioned in one of the Commonwealth navies (ilcuding some landing ships), except Q-ships
White Ensign

_______________________

Notes

* The Red Ensign (undefaced) was also the civil ensign flown aboard merchant vessels registered in British India. While the Raj had its own version of the Red Ensign defaced with the so called "star of India" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_India_(flag)#Red_Ensign), this flag had only a limited use:

No Admiralty Warrant was issued for this ensign which was an unofficial, or semi-official land flag. It was used between 1945 and 1947 in the context of India's membership of the United Nations, and possibly used earlier to denote India's membership of the League of Nations.

Source: Flags of the World (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/in-colon.html#flag)

[...] the Red Ensign was used as the civil ensign and sometimes represented India in international events, notably in the Declaration by United Nations during World War II. The ensign used on merchant ships registered in British Indian ports was the undefaced red ensign.

Source: Wikipedia (see link above)

** Since 1928 South Africa had its own national flag (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Africa_(1928%E2%80%931994)), nonetheless...

The South African "Red Ensign" used unofficially as a de facto national flag until 1928 [...] continued being used sparsely in limited contexts until the early 1950s.

source: Wikipedia (see link above)

Even after the Union adopted the new national flag in 1928, it continued to use the South African Red Ensign in its proper role as the Merchant Marine ensign until 1951 before the Merchant Shipping Act of that year designated the orange-white-blue national flag also as the Merchant ensign.

The Red Ensign was for use at sea as the merchant fleet ensign. This version of the South African Red Ensign continued in use in the merchant navy until 1951 when it was finally displaced at sea by the South African national flag in terms of the Merchant Shipping Act of that year.

Various sources inform us that the Red Ensign with South African flag badge was replaced by the South African national flag as the merchant ensign in 1951, and some writers state that this was in terms of the Merchant Shipping Act 1951. Well, section 65 of this Act, in its original form, did indeed state that "the national flag of the Union is hereby declared to be the national colours for all ships registered in the Union" -- but the Act wasn't brought into operation in 1951. It was kept in abeyance for several years.

Source: Flags of the World (https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/za_1910.html)

_______________________

That should be all for now guys. In case you find any wrong information, if you think I have missed some notable flag or vessel type, or if you can provide new information relevant to the subject of this post, I will gladly update it with your imputs :salute:

U-190

10-24-21, 06:33 PM

gap

10-25-21, 05:50 PM

https://maritime.org/doc/camo/index.htm

Oh, wow, thank you mate, that document is a gold mine but...

The publication shall be destroyed by burning when no longer required. No report of destruction need be submitted.

Should I burn my computer after reading? :hmmm: :doh:

Before I do it, I have created a table which should cover most of the paint colours mentioned in the document (HEX values taken from here (https://www.reddit.com/r/ShipCamouflage/comments/2i1gzm/wwii_us_navy_camouflage_paint_rgb_hex_values/)):

https://i.imgur.com/lGPgRde.png

Talking about the so called "Measure 16-Thayer System", I read that it was specifically designed for weather conditions similar to North Atlantic ones but, as far as I can understand, only troop transports and cargo ships commissioned in the US Navy were painted with it. The following link has a comprehensive list of vessels to which the said pattern might have applied:

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-ships.html

What I wonder is: which was the exact employment of those vessels by USN? Would they sail within mixed convoys?

http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ might have some answers

That's very strange because with this light grey painted on the hull, ships will be very well noticeable at night when there is moonlight... :hmmm: :doh: At least, it's my opinion... Perhaps moonlight is not enough to spot light grey ships' hull from far distances... but this would be surprising to me.

Else, interesting discussion here : http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/33023.aspx

Another interesting link. Thank you for sharing :up:

Thanks for your hard work, gap!

Thank you mate, my own pleasure :)

By the way, American pilots who joined the British Air Force also fought under the British flag in the Battle of the English Channel. They were seconded to the British forces. This applied not only to airplanes but also to ships.

I had already read that during Normandy landings (or maybe it was for Operation Torch, I don't remeber now), US aircraft had adopted British markings, I wasn't aware of the British ensign being flown on US ships though. Do you have any link which might add some detail?

U-190

10-25-21, 06:59 PM

https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/famous-battles-of-world-war-two/battle-of-britain/american-pilots-and-the-battle-of-britain/

Here is another table of colors for painting Boats. I use this color scheme to create skins.
https://www.hostpic.org/images/2109231809290117.jpg

Aktungbby

10-26-21, 01:32 AM

Oh, wow, thank you mate, that document is a gold mine but...
Should I burn my computer after reading? :hmmm: :doh:
Well you "need not submit a report of its destruction as it is now 'unclassified''...:yep: I simply had googled 'WWII naval camouflage paint'; and there it was-all in one manual??!!...in history research this is: "primary source material" if ever! I only displayed the two Thayer System diagrams color schemes XI &XII plates as they were the only two merchant classification vessels shown in the manual as per your OP; after which, I romped further afield on the Jeremiah O'Brian(same source as Mr._M)and USS Allegan AK-225's unique paint schemes. :yeah:

iambecomelife

10-26-21, 10:10 AM

In re: cargo ship colors, here's a very useful series of color sketches by a convoy commodore during the war. Apparently some ships did indeed keep the black hull paint for a long time after war broke out...also, tankers were often painted with tan superstructure and funnel for some reason.

https://i.postimg.cc/0Q30kSPV/DSP0e-I9-XUAIsvm-D.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/KY05WVVS/Hext-Rogers-convoy-drawings-0.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/LXhVFDKq/Hext-Rogers-SL38.jpg

Aktungbby

10-26-21, 10:54 AM

/\ NICE! A convoy commander's eyewitness sketches are also primary source material!:03::yeah: though I'd marvel at the time taken to do thse meticulous renditions by a convoy commodore in his quarters.??!...perhaps better spent keeping an eye out for Endraß & Co.(notorious Wolfpack West) periscopes etc.. :D especially in "June 1941 outbound from Liverpool":hmmm: Edit: JEEZE! I just recollected my own Primary Source Material from a day of sailing off Mare Island at the confluence of the Sacrarmento River and Napa River at SF Bay's northernmost San Pablo Bay in 2018. I glimpsed an actual Victory Cargo ship moored at the Merchant Marine Academy for refitting maintenance to engines and hastily nailed it with my flipphone to starboard while on a westerly tack: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=815&pictureid=9922 It is the Red Oak Victory; usually moored at the Richmond Museum near Oakland. Here's a video replete with Ocean Gray 5-0 paint :shucks: https://youtu.be/a6JDBTFcoRQ being moored at the academy; probably the day I saw it!:Kaleun_Binocular:

gap

10-26-21, 08:33 PM

https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/famous-battles-of-world-war-two/battle-of-britain/american-pilots-and-the-battle-of-britain/

Oh, okay, I had misunderstood you. That happened before the USA joined the Allied side. American pilots fought as volunteers though, so I suppose they were operating RAF aircraft.
What about ships? You had mentioned something about US vessels wearing British ensigns. I know that a number of US destroyers were involved in the so called "Neutrality Patrols", which actually were a covert way for the USA to defend their own coasts and Allied shipping against the U-baot menace even before December '41, but I believe those warships to have sailed under US flag.

Here is another table of colors for painting Boats. I use this color scheme to create skins.

:up:

Well you "need not submit a report of its destruction as it is now 'unclassified''...:yep: I simply had googled 'WWII naval camouflage paint'; and there it was-all in one manual??!!...in history research this is: "primary source material" if ever! I only displayed the two Thayer System diagrams color schemes XI &XII plates as they were the only two merchant classification vessels shown in the manual as per your OP; after which, I romped further afield on the Jeremiah O'Brian(same source as Mr._M)and USS Allegan AK-225's unique paint schemes. :yeah:

You did an excellet job bby, your degree in history is paying back the college fees :D:yep:

In re: cargo ship colors, here's a very useful series of color sketches by a convoy commodore during the war. Apparently some ships did indeed keep the black hull paint for a long time after war broke out...also, tankers were often painted with tan superstructure and funnel for some reason.

WOW, I was hoping for some more color photographs but those hand drawings are actually better!

I wish we could have access to the full series. Ah btw I have found the name of the talented Commodore, he was the Rear Admiral Hugh Hext Rogers. Here is some background:

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/rear-admiral-hugh-hext-rogers-convoy-drawings

/\ NICE! A convoy commander's eyewitness sketches are also primary source material!:03::yeah: though I'd marvel at the time taken to do thse meticulous renditions by a convoy commodore in his quarters.??!...perhaps better spent keeping an eye out for Silent Otto & Co.periscopes etc.. :D especially in "June 1941 outbound from Liverpool":hmmm:

Are you insinuating that our "primary source" wasn't aggressive enough lol? :haha:

kapuhy

10-27-21, 01:16 AM

Aktungbby

10-27-21, 02:04 AM

You did an excellet job bby, your degree in history is paying back the college fees :D:yep:
Are you insinuating that our "primary source" wasn't aggressive enough lol? :haha: better spent keeping an eye out for Endraß & Co.(notorious Wolfpack West) periscopes etc.. especially in "June 1941 outbound from Liverpool" My bad!! Silent Otto Kretschmer was never in Wolfpack West which attacked convoy OB 330. Engelbert Endraß, however was, in command of U-46 which attacked the convoy; sinking HMS Phidias Jun 9, 1941 https://uboat.net/media/allies/merchants/br/phidias.jpg was hit by one torpedo from U-46 north of the Azores, but it did not explode. The U-boat was now out of torpedoes, so they opened fire at 00.10 hours with the deck gun. The ship first fought back, but soon she caught fire and stopped shooting because the crew abandoned ship. At 00.45 hours, the U-boat ceased fire after firing 71 rounds and left the burning and sinking wreck. The master and seven crew members were killed.and damaging Hms Ensis the day before on Jun 8 1941: The tanker was en route from London to Curaçao in ballast.(ie: outbound empty with ballast water) Both torpedoes hit, but one was a dud. The damaged ship proceeded under own power to St. Johns, arriving on Jun 15, 1941. https://uboat.net/media/allies/merchants/br/ensis.jpg both depicted in Commodore, Rear Admiral Hugh Hext Rogers sketches...along with HMS's Mercier and Tresillian; both sunk by two other West wolfpack U-boats. HMS Ensis had ultimately "put paid" to Endraß's patrol though, as she had rammed U-46 after being torpedoed, necessitating U-46's return to St Nazaire for repairs. https://i.pinimg.com/236x/14/a0/5e/14a05ed32cc74960bf3be81e6525e804.jpg Subsequently (pun intended) HMS Ensis would survive two more U-boat encounters and survive the war! At 01.10 hours on 4 Apr 1942, the Ensis was slightly damaged by 20mm gunfire from U-572 in 35°43N/66°08W (grid CB 7588). At 17.04 hours on 29 Feb 1944 the Ensis was torpedoed and damaged by U-407, while in an unknown convoy in the Mediterranean.Conclusion: Commodores can be passive artists; it's those nasty tanker captains who take up the slack and survive!!:Kaleun_Salute:

Mister_M

10-27-21, 04:22 AM

Engelbert Endraß, however was, in command of U-46 which attacked the convoy; sinking HMS Phidias Jun 9, 1941 https://uboat.net/media/allies/merchants/br/phidias.jpg

Strangely, HMS Phidias is not listed in OB.330 on Arnold Hague database : http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob2/index.html

Sorry for hijacking this thread... :oops:

Mister_M

10-27-21, 09:01 AM

"the exact shade could vary depending on what was available"

"availability of specific paints was a problem especially if ships were spread over many ports, so it wouldn't be unusual to have convoy consist of varied paint schemes."

"Another reason was of course the availability of paint. Standard schemes were difficult to introduce among ships serving all over the world. Some ports would have sufficient available, other ports would not. Some ports may not have the exact paint needed, so something 'near enough' would have to do."

This confirms my idea that, in war time, it was not so easy to find the exact paint color as required by "official" rules... :

In real life, I don't know how much time it was needed to repaint a whole ship. Maybe lack of time ? Lack of crew ? Lack of equipment (in wartime, all is restrained) ? Lack of... money (and you will have to repaint again the ship after the war) ?... Or even other things that we just cannot have an idea or we just cannot imagine...

"general rule was to paint everything in dull colours."

"on varnished wood: ... the dull colour was considered sufficient"

"decks and upper surfaces were painted in dullest possible colours"

I'm not a native english speaker, and I can't understand very well what does the key word "dull" mean (even with WordReference.com). Does it mean "dark" ?

So in fact, "dull" paint was better than "light grey" ? ... This would be logical, since dark paint will render your ship less noticeable from the air and during night times.

kapuhy

10-27-21, 09:38 AM

I'm not a native english speaker, and I can't understand very well what does the key word "dull" mean (even with WordReference.com). Does it mean "dark" ?

So in fact, "dull" paint was better than "light grey" ? ... This would be logical, since dark paint will render your ship less noticeable from the air and during night times.

Also not a native speaker but afaik "dull" means low saturation, or an opposite of bright. So, any color as long as it's not bright and saturated, with shades of gray being dullest by definition.

Hence why (unfortunately for someone wishing his ship models to look cool) "dull" also means "boring" :-)

U-190

10-27-21, 09:53 AM

Also not a native speaker but afaik "dull" means low saturation, or an opposite of bright. So, any color as long as it's not bright and saturated, with shades of gray being dullest by definition.

Hence why (unfortunately for someone wishing his ship models to look cool) "dull" also means "boring" :-)
Ogólnie rzecz biorąc, wszystko jest złe! Da Kapuhy? :timeout:
I think. that I should try to draw something for ships using a color table courtesy of our amigos.

gap

10-27-21, 10:32 AM

Stumbled upon this thread covering the same topic as well:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152218

:up:

Some interesting information from there:
- Early war British regulations were supposedly different:
"black hulls and funnels, with brown or dark buff superstructure, masts and derricks"
vs later in the war:
"dark grey hull and funnel, with brown or dark buff as above"

This transition must have happened around mid 1941, since one of the sketches posted by iambecomelife, relative to Convoy OB.330 (June 1941), depicts ships painted with either of the two schemes in more or less equal proportions. Judging by the same drawing, grey hulls with buff upper works and funnels was another possible scheme:

https://i.postimg.cc/0Q30kSPV/DSP0e-I9-XUAIsvm-D.jpg

Another of the convoy sketches posted by iambecomelife is notable too, as it depicts a number of funnels painted in brilliant colours:

https://i.postimg.cc/LXhVFDKq/Hext-Rogers-SL38.jpg

Unfortunately its resolution is rather poor. Notes and captions are not easily discernible, but despite that I managed identifing the convoy as Convoy SL.60 (July 1940) (http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/sl2/index.html?sl.php?convoy=60!~slmain). What would be interesting is comparing funnel colors with the company colours of each ship.

and by 1943:
"By 1943 Allied shipping was pretty standardised on all over grey. However the exact shade could vary depending on what was available. Where possible many still used dark grey hull and lighter upper works."

This is more or less the standard colour scheme adopted in stock game, though I don't remember superstructures to be painted in a lighter shade of gray than hulls.

By the way: did you manage solving the problem of LOD models not matching the color of main models (i.e. configurable textures not applying to them)?

Has anyone checked if two ships sharing the same 3D model can be rendered at the same time with two different textures if one of them is set as a "proxy clone" with its own texture?

Both issues might be a major obstacle to having more ship color variety in game :hmmm:

Aktungbby

10-27-21, 11:03 AM

Strangely, HMS Phidias is not listed in OB.330 on Arnold Hague database : http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob2/index.html

Sorry for hijacking this thread... :oops:
It is listed in your site under ship search in OB 94 FEB1940 & OB 170 Jun 1940. Your Hague site shows 42 vessels in OB 330??!! The commodore only drew 39 vessels !!??:hmmm: and certainly knew what was in his convoy!:arrgh!:: Thus, the Hague data base is not Primary Source material! We'll rely on the Commodore! :D

gap

10-27-21, 11:05 AM

Strangely, HMS Phidias is not listed in OB.330 on Arnold Hague database : http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob2/index.html

Obviously an oversight since the same database lists Phidias among the losses of Convoy OB.330:

http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob/index.html?losses.htm~obmain

Sorry for hijacking this thread... :oops:

You are on topic Mister_M, OB.330 is one of the convoys "in color" we are discussing, and SS Phidias is among the ships skecthed by Commodore Rogers as part of that convoy :yep:

It is listed in your site under ship search in OB 94 FEB1940 & OB 170 Jun 1940. Your Hague site shows 42 vessels in OB 330??!! The commodore only drew 39 vessels !!??:hmmm: and certainly knew what was in his convoy!:arrgh!:: Thus, the Hague data base is not Primary Source material! We'll rely on the Commodore! :D

Maybe the Hague dtabase includes enscorts in the count? :hmm2:

EDIT: no, I just checked that, it doesn't

This confirms my idea that, in war time, it was not so easy to find the exact paint color as required by "official" rules... :

In part, yes.

Indeed time factors and paint availability played a big role. Many ships were sunk before they could be repainted, and there was no colour omogenity among the ones which eventually were repainted. You were right on that, but you had also speculated that old ships might have been not worth the extra paint, and this is the point that I and kapuhy disagreed on :)

I think. that I should try to draw something for ships using a color table courtesy of our amigos.

:up:

Good idea, but please read my final notes at post #30

GrenSo

10-27-21, 11:26 AM

Here are some - in German - regualations about interiors of ships and submarine.

From the General Regulations No. 31, March 1940 edition, regulation for applying paint to ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboote/farben_maerz_1940.html

From the General Regulations No. 31, July 1944 edition, regulation for the application of paint on ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboote/farben_juli_1944.html

https://i.postimg.cc/xTKMXH1P/German-Paint1-jpg-thumb.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/uBBbRgQ5NzAQLznF_aM2FuFgsKhpaFBPVUh-UjnNgYMUbm7tWBqfkbWjYzS-YuQ4xtNERFPWN6HZns5WHPwSzFd0HIylObZR8UJlFrkmLEYjdH s9BCpW_L51xwTlgB0NSKkCz8EL

https://www.shipcamouflage.com/images/kriegsmarine3.jpg

gap

10-27-21, 11:41 AM

Here are some - in German - regualations about interiors of ships and submarine.

From the General Regulations No. 31, March 1940 edition, regulation for applying paint to ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboote/farben_maerz_1940.html

From the General Regulations No. 31, July 1944 edition, regulation for the application of paint on ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboote/farben_juli_1944.html

https://i.postimg.cc/xTKMXH1P/German-Paint1-jpg-thumb.png

Oh thank you GrenSo, that's another nice contribution, I only wish I knew a bit of German :doh:

BTW: do you happen to know if there was any special colour regulation which applied to German merchant ships non-commissioned in the KriegsMarine? I know most of them were either seized in enemy ports, confiscated in neutral ports or blocked in friendly ports, but a number of them saw active service either as coastal shipping or as blockade runners, and I wonder which colours might be more realistic for them.

Mister_M

10-27-21, 02:57 PM

It is listed in your site under ship search in OB 94 FEB1940 & OB 170 Jun 1940. Your Hague site shows 42 vessels in OB 330??!! The commodore only drew 39 vessels !!??:hmmm: and certainly knew what was in his convoy!:arrgh!:: Thus, the Hague data base is not Primary Source material! We'll rely on the Commodore! :D

PHIDIAS is not in the list and this is obviously an error.

The list has 4 more extra ships (all British) :
- CITY OF BARCELONA
- KING EDWARD
- STANLAKE
- TORTUGUERO

There are also different spellings (drawing/database) :

- BORGHOLM / BORNHOLM
- PRINCESS MARIA PIA / PRINSES MARIA-PIA
- BANGKALIKAT / MANGKALIHAT
- LANGLETARN / LANGLEETARN

Who's right, who's wrong ?

but you had also speculated that old ships might have been not worth the extra paint, and this is the point that I and kapuhy disagreed on :)

I'm not sure that new paint would camouflage them better. They are smaller than Liberty ships for example, and they emit black smoke, which instantly nullifies the effect of camouflage (against sea spotters). But it was certainly useful to camouflage them from air spotters, with dull paint on the deck and upper surfaces... :03:

Also :

"merchant ships were scattered all over the world and of course were far too busy to keep in dock unless completely necessary "

Mister_M

10-27-21, 03:02 PM

BTW: do you happen to know if there was any special colour regulation which applied to German merchant ships non-commissioned in the KriegsMarine? I know most of them were either seized in enemy ports, confiscated in neutral ports or blocked in friendly ports, but a number of them saw active service either as coastal shipping or as blockade runners, and I wonder which colours might be more realistic for them.

Probably same as for the allied size : hide all shiny and saturated colors with grey paint. And perhaps sometimes a camo pattern... Just speculating... :hmmm:

Mister_M

10-27-21, 03:51 PM

Here is my analysis of the commodore's (Hugh Hext Rogers) drawing of convoy OB.330 ships (assuming that colors are accurate) :

1. Ships with their original colors : hulls are black (sometimes dark grey), and upper structures are white, light yellow, buff or brown, funnels have different colors (orange, blue, black). MANAQUI is plain dark grey (maybe a repaint ?). Many of them are British (so "rules" are not very respected...).

https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2021/10/27//21102711081918069017639833.png (https://www.casimages.com/i/21102711081918069017639833.png.html)

2. Ships with hull (probably) repainted in grey : most of ships are tankers, it's a light grey paint.

https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2021/10/27//21102711081518069017639831.png (https://www.casimages.com/i/21102711081518069017639831.png.html)

3. Ships with superstructures (probably) repainted in grey : the hull remains very dark (black). HEINA superstructures are perhaps actually white... :hmmm:

https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2021/10/27//21102711081318069017639830.png (https://www.casimages.com/i/21102711081318069017639830.png.html)

4. Ships in plain grey (probably a war repaint) : note that there are different shades of grey from ship to ship...

https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2021/10/27//21102711081818069017639832.png (https://www.casimages.com/i/21102711081818069017639832.png.html)

kapuhy

10-27-21, 05:25 PM

By the way: did you manage solving the problem of LOD models not matching the color of main models (i.e. configurable textures not applying to them)?

Has anyone checked if two ships sharing the same 3D model can be rendered at the same time with two different textures if one of them is set as a "proxy clone" with its own texture?

Both issues might be a major obstacle to having more ship color variety in game :hmmm:

Unfortunately, the answer is "no" on both questions.

As for LOD problem, only workarounds for it that I know of are:

1) disable/delete LOD file forcing game to render main model at all distances.
2) set LOD switching distance to far enough and make color variations similar enough that player would not notice color switch at LOD distance.

As for second question - I did a test with one of my coasters, created a clone and set it to use another texture, then put both ships (original and clone) together in one scene. Both showed up with the same texture set. This might warrant another test though since I did it just once and might simply have made some error in configuration.

gap

10-27-21, 08:36 PM

There are also different spellings (drawing/database) :

- BORGHOLM / BORNHOLM
- PRINCESS MARIA PIA / PRINSES MARIA-PIA
- BANGKALIKAT / MANGKALIHAT
- LANGLETARN / LANGLEETARN

Who's right, who's wrong ?

That's easy to discover:

https://southampton.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRN/WPAC/HOME

Enter ship's name in the search field and check the results. If no record is displayed, the spelling is probably wrong

I'm not sure that new paint would camouflage them better. They are smaller than Liberty ships for example, and they emit black smoke, which instantly nullifies the effect of camouflage (against sea spotters). But it was certainly useful to camouflage them from air spotters, with dull paint on the deck and upper surfaces... :03:

You may be right or wrong, but I don't think this is the actual point. Whether camouflages were effective or not, they were used, this is a fact, and we are trying to discover which ones were used and when :)

Here is my analysis of the commodore's (Hugh Hext Rogers) drawing of convoy OB.330 ships (assuming that colors are accurate)...

Oh, that's a cool analysis, well done! :up:

I am preparing a similar analysis for the other convoy whose sketch we have available (SL.60). I will get it finished tomorrow.

Unfortunately, the answer is "no" on both questions.

As for LOD problem, only workarounds for it that I know of are:

1) disable/delete LOD file forcing game to render main model at all distances.
2) set LOD switching distance to far enough and make color variations similar enough that player would not notice color switch at LOD distance.

As for second question - I did a test with one of my coasters, created a clone and set it to use another texture, then put both ships (original and clone) together in one scene. Both showed up with the same texture set. This might warrant another test though since I did it just once and might simply have made some error in configuration.

Okay, talking about proxy clones a trick that comes to me mind is placing secondary textures directly in clone's folder rather than in the folder of the main unit. It probably won't work, but it is worth an attempt anyway :hmmm:

U-190

10-27-21, 09:26 PM

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c5/43/c9/c543c9d499d64045e74f31eeec6ebbf3.jpg

Mister_M

10-28-21, 09:09 AM

That's easy to discover:

https://southampton.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRN/WPAC/HOME

Enter ship's name in the search field and check the results. If no record is displayed, the spelling is probably wrong

What's that ? :hmmm:

kapuhy

10-28-21, 11:54 AM

Okay, talking about proxy clones a trick that comes to me mind is placing secondary textures directly in clone's folder rather than in the folder of the main unit. It probably won't work, but it is worth an attempt anyway :hmmm:

Well, just tested. Short version, didn't work. Long version:

I created a proxy clone unit with its own texture files, but sharing gr2 model with original, and put it right next to original. Results:
- if original doesn't have texture specified in its roster file but clone does, both ships assume clone's texture
- if both ships have texture specified in roster files, they both assume original's texture
- it neither has texture specified in roester file, same as above - both assume original's texture.

So whatever is in roster file takes priority over texture specified in gr2 file, but anyway game seems to only check once per gr2 file and settle for one texture for all units using this model. Which is a bummer.

Now, someone maybe should check this in campaign as well, since in single missions there's some weird things going with textures anyway (like ships having winter decals even if scenario takes place in June near equator).

gap

10-28-21, 05:05 PM

https://i.imgur.com/Hal3oWo.png?1 Thomas Holt (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0925.pdf) / J. Holt & Co, Liverpool......................................... ........... https://i.imgur.com/xy5oV7p.png
https://i.imgur.com/Kh7j5e6.png Nela (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0665.pdf) / Royal Mail Lines, London............................................ ................ https://i.imgur.com/4yzD1iy.png
https://i.imgur.com/OSDmIOK.png Silvercedar (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0850.pdf) / Silver Line, London............................................ .............. https://i.imgur.com/u658ANp.jpg?1 https://i.imgur.com/tMSLwvm.gif?1
https://i.imgur.com/3715uj1.png Clan Cameron (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0237.pdf) / The Clan Line Steamers, Glasgow................................... https://i.imgur.com/sWAftod.png
https://i.imgur.com/BK8JHvB.png Cefn-y-Bryn (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0212.pdf) / Cook Shipping Co. - Ambrose, Davies & Matthews, London... ? (https://www.clydeships.co.uk/view.php?year_built=&builder=&ref=50127&vessel=CEFN-Y-BRYN)
https://i.imgur.com/0z51yPC.png Pontypridd (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0748.pdf) / Pontypridd Steamship Co. - Morel Ltd, London...................... https://i.imgur.com/zuoiaaq.png
https://i.imgur.com/TV0Cxie.png Nebraska (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0664.pdf) / Royal Mail Lines, London............................................ ......... https://i.imgur.com/4yzD1iy.png
https://i.imgur.com/st12veC.png Harmatris (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0413.pdf) / Willis Steamship Co - J. & C. Harrison, London....................... https://i.imgur.com/leknwgV.png
https://i.imgur.com/XzJwbj4.png Telesfora De Larrinaga (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0915.pdf) / Larrinaga Steamship Co, Liverpool...................... https://i.imgur.com/mI8EX1r.png
https://i.imgur.com/mzR1ztJ.png British Genius (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0172.pdf) / British Tanker Co, London............................................ . https://i.imgur.com/ctHBGmG.png
https://i.imgur.com/Uf5UHOi.png City of Shanghai (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0235.pdf) / Ellerman's Hall Line (Sun Shipping Co.), Liverpool......... https://i.imgur.com/xgeS6Ft.png
https://i.imgur.com/FB0cJkd.png Algenib (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0070.pdf) / N.V Van Nievelt, Goudriaan & Co. Stoomvaart Mij, Rotterdam...... https://i.imgur.com/9sV4ste.png
https://i.imgur.com/aFzznQ7.png Birchbank (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0151.pdf) / Bank Line - Andrew Weir & Co, London................................. https://i.imgur.com/mLb84D5.png
https://i.imgur.com/NWl4HON.png Pearlmoor (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0727.pdf) / Moor Line - Runciman Shipping Co, Newcastle-upon-Tyne........ https://i.imgur.com/2b1Fr7v.png
https://i.imgur.com/kKa0KMS.png Tribesman (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0948.pdf) / Charente Steamship Co - T. & J. Harrison, Liverpool............... https://i.imgur.com/igNb8sc.png

gap

10-28-21, 05:06 PM

https://i.imgur.com/WeNVsHa.png Haughton Hall (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/38/38b0385.pdf) / Charles G. Dunn Shipping Co, Liverpool.......................... https://i.imgur.com/EuXGBPr.png
https://i.imgur.com/mj72du6.png Thalatta (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0920.pdf) / Wilh. Wilhelmsen, Tønsberg .................................................. https://i.imgur.com/ywy1k5g.png
https://i.imgur.com/GaFmcHm.png Dagrun (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0267.pdf) / A/S Ocean - John P. Pedersen & Son, Oslo................................ https://i.imgur.com/AyFYExn.png
https://i.imgur.com/M1h3JNW.png City of Guildford (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0231.pdf) / Ellerman's Hall Line (Sun Shipping Co.), Liverpool......... https://i.imgur.com/xgeS6Ft.png
https://i.imgur.com/eyxCXfB.png Dumfries (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0297.pdf) / B.J. Sutherland & Co, Newcastle-upon-Tyne............................ https://i.imgur.com/Ve7Z1hP.png
https://i.imgur.com/fy02NEF.png Suecia (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0886.pdf) / Rederi A/B Nordstjernan - A.A. Johnson, Stockholm.................... https://i.imgur.com/HVuy75f.png
https://i.imgur.com/FFc067X.png Randfontein (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0771.pdf) / Vereenigde Nederlansche Scheepvaart Mij, Den Haag.......... https://i.imgur.com/CXYtyXI.png
https://i.imgur.com/DQ1sBxL.png Halizones (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0408.pdf) / British & S. American St. Nav. Co. - Houston Line, Liverpool..... https://i.imgur.com/TCAUZfH.png
https://i.imgur.com/vOhgtyt.png Congonian (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0250.pdf) / United Africa Co, London............................................ ....... ? (https://www.wrecksite.eu/img/wrecks/congonian_01_1_1_.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/dgsK418.png Cape Race (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0198.pdf) / Lyle Shipping Co, Glasgow........................................... ....... https://i.imgur.com/yTKOILD.png
https://i.imgur.com/XP4Wc0c.png Statira (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0877.pdf) / Chellew Steamship Management Co - F.C. Perman, London.......... https://i.imgur.com/GqHZYzq.png
https://i.imgur.com/p5GRP09.png Laplace (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0553.pdf) / Lamport & Holt Line, Liverpool......................................... ....... https://i.imgur.com/5aQaF6H.png
https://i.imgur.com/4Kw2Q4b.png Serbino (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0839.pdf) / Ellerman's Hall Line (Sun Shipping Co.), Liverpool..................... https://i.imgur.com/xgeS6Ft.png
https://i.imgur.com/i3dVaew.png Ramon de Larrinaga (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0771.pdf) / Larrinaga Steamship Co, Liverpool......................... https://i.imgur.com/mI8EX1r.png
https://i.imgur.com/iQS0rnL.png Lima (https://plimsoll.southampton.gov.uk/shipdata/pdfs/40/40a0566.pdf) / Rederi A/B Nordstjernan - A.A. Johnson, Stockholm....................... https://i.imgur.com/HVuy75f.png

gap

10-28-21, 05:14 PM

What's that ? :hmmm:

Probably the most complete internet archive of Lloyd's Register records. Not all the years were digitalized, but WWII period is covered.

Well, just tested. Short version, didn't work.

Yes, that's indeed a bummer. I start wondering if he same problem affects configurable equipments :hmmm:

Mister_M

10-28-21, 06:37 PM

Nice work gap. Very few ships are painted all grey. But something is interesting : it seems that buff superstructures are part of the camouflage system. Indeed, look at the tanker British Genius : original funnel colors are not buff. Maybe it was because grey paint was in short supply, and they used buff paint to do the rest... Another fun fact : the hull has a camo pattern.

Else, the Ellerman's Hall Line seems to have decided to repaint all funnels in orange... :haha: :doh:

gap

10-28-21, 07:26 PM

Nice work gap. Very few ships are painted all grey. But something is interesting : it seems that buff superstructures are part of the camouflage system. Indeed, look at the tanker British Genius : original funnel colors are not buff.

Definitely. This is in confirmation of kapuhy's findings

- Early war British regulations were supposedly different:
"black hulls and funnels, with brown or dark buff superstructure, masts and derricks"
vs later in the war:
"dark grey hull and funnel, with brown or dark buff as above"
and by 1943:
"By 1943 Allied shipping was pretty standardised on all over grey. However the exact shade could vary depending on what was available. Where possible many still used dark grey hull and lighter upper works."

Black or grey hulls with buff upperworks are dominant in this particular convoy, but apparently there was a certain level of discretionality on how to combine the recommended colours. An interesting variation on the theme are bicolor hulls: black to light grey near the waterline and bluff on top.

Maybe it was because grey paint was in short supply, and they used buff paint to do the rest... Another fun fact : the hull has a camo pattern.

mmm... I am not sure about the camo patterrn, those sketches are way too small for us to appreciate such a fine details, but have you noticed the neutrality markings near the bows of the two Swedish freighters (Suecia and Lima)?

Here are a few pictures for visual reference:

https://uboat.net/media/allies/merchants/sw/venezia.jpg

http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/SwedishAmerica/Stockholm_1_04.jpg

http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/SwedishAmerica/Stockholm_1_07.jpg

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-89000/NH-89959/_jcr_content/mediaitem/image.img.jpg/1435800363081.jpg

I think similar markings are also visible on the hull of Kors Holm in the drawings of the 1941 Convoy that you have studied.

Else, the Ellerman's Hall Line seems to have decided to repaint all funnels in orange... :haha: :doh:

Yes, those orange funnels really puzzled me. Orange is definitely not what you would call a "dull" colour, but maybe they are just bluff with some colored bands, and they look orange because of the poor resolution :hmm2:

Aktungbby

10-28-21, 09:36 PM

mmm... I am not sure about the camo patterrn, those sketches are way too small for us to appreciate such a fine details, but have you noticed the neutrality markings near the bows of the two Swedish freighters (Suecia and Lima)?
FAT lotta good it did them: https://www.konditori100.se/SiWW2/sww2lscs.htm During World War II Swedish ships sailed for Sweden, the Allies, the Germans, the Red Cross and for some others.
Swedish merchant sailors memorialAround 1,400-1,500 Swedish sailors were killed when Swedish ships were hit by bombs, grenades, mines and/or torpedoes. (Plus or minus some hundreds - I've seen various numbers.)
500-600 Swedish sailors were killed on ships from other nations.
Around 270 Swedish ships were sunk.

Mister_M

10-29-21, 08:44 AM

Why wearing neutrality marks while sailing into an allied convoy ? :k_confused:

kapuhy

10-29-21, 08:48 AM

Why wearing neutrality marks while sailing into an allied convoy ? :k_confused:

Possibly because you do not intend to stay in the convoy for entire cruise and don't want to have to paint them back on when you separate from it. Plus, there's a small chance that given two equally juicy targets in the periscope, U-Boat will select one that belongs to the enemy nation.

gap

10-29-21, 10:40 AM

FAT lotta good it did them: https://www.konditori100.se/SiWW2/sww2lscs.htm

Nice link, well done Aktungbby :up:

Why wearing neutrality marks while sailing into an allied convoy ? :k_confused:

Possibly because you do not intend to stay in the convoy for entire cruise and don't want to have to paint them back on when you separate from it. Plus, there's a small chance that given two equally juicy targets in the periscope, U-Boat will select one that belongs to the enemy nation.

Makes sense. We should see the Swedish merchant fleet as a "mercenary fleet" of some sort. They sailed equallity to neutral, Allied and Axis ports, but they couldn't repaint their ships their ships every time they changed destinations. The best way to set up similar nations in game, is having two rosters for each of them, one neutral and the other allied. Ships belonging to the two rosters should be visually identical, but campaign files should call neutral ships to sail to/from neutral or Axis ports, whereas the "enemy" ones should be used within Allied shipping boud to/from England, USA, Canada, USSR, etc.
Probably Vecko has already done something similar for TWoS.

kapuhy

10-29-21, 11:30 AM

Probably Vecko has already done something similar for TWoS.

That's exactly what "Free XXX" nations are used for.

gap

10-29-21, 09:53 PM

That's exactly what "Free XXX" nations are used for.

Yes indeed, I know that. I am the one who reworked DesSides.cfg (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1669656#post1669656) for Open Horizons II back in 2011, when Zedi was still in charge of the mod. With little changes the file is now part of TWoS; I think my exaplanatory notes are still in place btw.

When I created the "Free" nations I had exactly those "ambiguous" diplomatic stances in mind. Nonetheless, more recently, I came to realize that the said nations were poorly implemented in game, or not used at all. I will give you an example. The FreeAmerican nation was created for allowing the implementation of Neutrality Patrols (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Patrol), but I think they were never actually added to the campaign. IIRC, the last time I checked the FreeAmerican roster it was empty.

Several months ago I discussed the topic with Vecko, and I think that the shortcomings were amended at least in part. I say "at least in part" because the last time I offered to cooperate with him on those aspects of the OHII/TWoS campaign he gently refused my proposal, and then he came up with his own changes, so now I am unsure on which features were implemented according to my original idea and which not.

I hope I made myself clearer now :salute:

Mister_M

10-30-21, 01:48 AM

I will give you an example. The FreeAmerican nation was created for allowing the implementation of Neutrality Patrols (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Patrol), but I think they were never actually added to the campaign. IIRC, the last time I checked the FreeAmerican roster it was empty.

Ooooh, ok ! So, despite USA being neutral until Dec 1941, some american escort ships or airplanes could attack us ? :yeah: (but maybe without bombs and depth charges... :timeout:)

kapuhy

10-30-21, 05:52 AM

I hope I made myself clearer now :salute:

Yes, sorry for my Captain Obvious moment. Of all people, you know best what these nations were created for :oops:

As for things being not / not fully implemented, the more I look into campaign files the more I see how much it could be still improved regarding historical accuracy. A pity there's not nearly enough modders interested in SH5 to do it all.

gap

10-31-21, 10:58 AM

Yes, sorry for my Captain Obvious moment. Of all people, you know best what these nations were created for :oops:

No need to say sorry kapuhy!
I hope my previous post didn't sound polemic because that was not my intention :)

As for things being not / not fully implemented, the more I look into campaign files the more I see how much it could be still improved regarding historical accuracy. A pity there's not nearly enough modders interested in SH5 to do it all.

If Vecko or anyone else is still interested in further improving the TWoS campaign with a focus on historical accuracy, I am on it too :up:

Ooooh, ok ! So, despite USA being neutral until Dec 1941, some american escort ships or airplanes could attack us ? :yeah: (but maybe without bombs and depth charges... :timeout:)

I am preparing a long post on this subject that you might finde interesting :salute:

U-190

10-31-21, 11:03 AM

No need to say sorry kapuhy!
I hope my previous post didn't sound polemic because that was not my intention :)

If Vecko or anyone else is still interested in further improving the TWoS campaign with a focus on historical accuracy, I am on it too :up:

I am preparing a long post on this subject that you might finde interesting :salute:
:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up::up:

Mister_M

10-31-21, 04:31 PM

Why not set the USA in allied side sooner, as you did first (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1673750&postcount=398), it's a good idea, and no need to add additional (virtual) free country :

[SideEntry 5]
Country=American
Side=1
StartDate=19410410 ; First naval engagement between an U-boat and the destroyer USS Niblack; USA formally joined the conflict several months later, on 19411208
EndDate=19450901

iambecomelife

11-02-21, 11:30 PM

Stumbled upon this thread covering the same topic as well:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152218

Some interesting information from there:
- Early war British regulations were supposedly different:
"black hulls and funnels, with brown or dark buff superstructure, masts and derricks"
vs later in the war:
"dark grey hull and funnel, with brown or dark buff as above"
and by 1943:
"By 1943 Allied shipping was pretty standardised on all over grey. However the exact shade could vary depending on what was available. Where possible many still used dark grey hull and lighter upper works."

- availability of specific paints was a problem especially if ships were spread over many ports, so it wouldn't be unusual to have convoy consist of varied paint schemes. Still, general rule was to paint everything in dull colours.

-on varnished wood:
"many of the older ships had varnished brown derricks and masts, and this was often retained as the dull colour was considered sufficient"

- decks and upper surfaces were painted in dullest possible colours by ships approaching European waters, because of widespread fear of being bombed by Condor aircraft. This was done outside of regulations, often at sea with any paints on hand so shades would vary depending on what paints were available.

This is very useful to me! Somehow I missed it; this explains why the tankers in the commodore's sketches had that weird superstructure color - I knew it was the wrong color for ships of British Tanker Co., etc.

Perhaps the admiralty hoped that at a distance enemy vessels would be unsure of whether or not a ship spotted in daylight was neutral or not - as opposed to full camo, which would often be visible anyway and would give away a ship as probably British. This would probably be the best choice without painting on fake neutral hull flags/funnel colors, which would have caused protest from neutral nations....

Interesting photos of colored sketches below, showing how ship camouflage changed from WWI - they are of the standard "War" class merchantman "War Drake" in 1918 and the long bridge deck merchant "Clearpool".

It seems they decided in WW2 that the complicated dazzle camouflage was not very effective.

In peacetime "Clearpool" would have had green funnel with a checkered red emblem, grey-green or bright green hull, huge "billboard" lettering on the hull, and brown+white deckhouses (like "Danby" from the same company):

https://i.postimg.cc/90twXV51/Merchantman-SS-War-Drake-WWI-Cargo-Ship-1918.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/br3Rcjzt/Merchantman-SS-Clearpool2-WWII-Ropner-Shipping.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/3NhRZ5hP/8158d4a5-a556-494c-a91b-9b05320e7c11-A29289-141.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/28zybD2W/Danby-j.jpg

iambecomelife

11-03-21, 01:43 AM

Possibly because you do not intend to stay in the convoy for entire cruise and don't want to have to paint them back on when you separate from it. Plus, there's a small chance that given two equally juicy targets in the periscope, U-Boat will select one that belongs to the enemy nation.

Yep - that's correct. I read a book called "Night of the U-Boats" that talked about the problem created by mixed nationality convoys - the author says UK sailors hated neutral ships; the giant flags & bright colors could give away a convoy's location. In HX-79 British tanker "Sitala" was sailing near the neutral Swedish tanker "Janus" on a moonlit night - both got sunk because the bright paint on "Janus" helped submarines find their convoy:

https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/641.html

https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/638.html

Mister_M

11-03-21, 02:53 AM

Good info ! :up:

both got sunk because the bright paint on "Janus" helped submarines find their convoy:

Is this clearly stated by the U-boats' captains themselves ?

iambecomelife

11-03-21, 03:28 AM

Good info ! :up:

Is this clearly stated by the U-boats' captains themselves ?

It was in a complaint to the Admiralty from an officer on the freighter "Hoyanger", which survived the battle. Not 100% sure that the U-Boat crews confirmed this, but I tend to believe his complaint - he said the "Janus" practically glowed in the moonlight bc of grey and white paint.

Out of curiosity I looked up Janus's shipping company in a WW2 ID book - sure enough the paint scheme for that line was grey and white. :haha: They also had bright yellow funnel markings...probably didn't help.

I also read an article on the TM-1 convoy disaster, with 7 of 9 tankers sunk (can't find the web page anymore, sorry) - the destroyers escorting the tankers were painted an inappropriate shade of grey, which the U-Boats used to locate the convoy in the moonlight.

Apparently, certain shades of grey paint made a ship highly visible on a clear night when the moon was out....thus the highly specific regulations about what shade of grey you were supposed to use.

Aktungbby

11-03-21, 03:36 AM

Yep - that's correct. I read a book called "Night of the U-Boats" that talked about the problem created by mixed nationality convoys - the author says UK sailors hated neutral ships; the giant flags & bright colors could give away a convoy's location. In HX-79 British tanker "Sitala" was sailing near the neutral Swedish tanker "Janus" on a moonlit night - both got sunk because the bright paint on "Janus" helped submarines find their convoy:

https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/641.html

https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/638.html

:hmmm:THe bright paint is moot on a moonlit night in a two convoy attack: HX 79 was an east-bound convoy of 50 ships which sailed from Halifax on 8 October 1940 making for Liverpool with war materials. On 19 October, 4 days from landfall, HX 79 was entering the Western Approaches, and had caught up with the position of SC 7, which was under attack.
The escort for the crossing had been meagre, being provided by two armed merchant cruisers against the possibility of attack by a surface raider, but even these had departed when HX 79 was sighted by U-47, commanded by submarine ace Kapitänleutnant Günther Prien.
At this point HX 79 was unescorted; Prien sent a sighting report and set to shadowing the convoy, while Konteradmiral Karl Dönitz ordered the pack to assemble. Those U-boats which had attacked SC 7 and were still able to fight (three had departed to re-arm having expended all their torpedoes) were directed to the scene. Four did so, U-100 (Joachim Schepke), U-46 (Engelbert Endrass), U-48 (Heinrich Bleichrodt) and U-38 (Heinrich Liebe) joining U-47 during the day.
However the Admiralty, concerned by the fate of SC 7 and anticipating an attack, rushed reinforcements to the scene; throughout the day a large escort force of 11 warships also gathered to provide cover.
Action
Undeterred by their presence however, the pack attacked as night fell; using the darkness to cover an approach on the surface, Prien penetrated the escort screen from the south to attack from within the convoy, while Endrass (who had learned his trade as Prien's 1st officer), did the same from the north.
Over the next six hours, 13 ships were torpedoed; 6 by U-47 alone (4 of which were sunk). 10 ships were sunk from the convoy, and 2 stragglers were lost later in the day. These were Shirak, which had been torpedoed in the night, and Loch Lomond, sailing with the convoy as a rescue ship. Another, Athelmonarch, was damaged but was able to make port.
HX 79 had lost 12 ships out of 49, a total tonnage of 75,069 gross register tons (GRT).
None of the attacking U-boats were damaged. In short the Convoy had happened upon a convoy attack in progress (SC 7) ; was spotted by Prien and shadowed and the other Uboats, all commanded by top aces, closed in to commenced night attacks in moonlight. HX 79 may be considered to have gotten off lightly when compared to SC 7: SC 7 had lost 20 ships out of 35, of which seven fell to Kretschmer's U-99. The total tonnage lost was 79,592 GRT. The arrival of convoy HX 79 in the vicinity had diverted the U-boats and they went on to sink 12 ships from HX 79 that night. No U-boats were lost in either engagement. The loss of 28 ships in 48 hours made 18 and 19 October the worst two days for shipping losses in the entire Atlantic campaign. The attack on SC 7 was a vindication of the U-boat Arm's wolfpack tactic, and was the most successful U-boat attack of the Atlantic campaign. The convoy escort was ineffective in guarding against the attack. Convoy tactics were rudimentary at this early stage of the war. The escorts' responses were uncoordinated, as the ships were unused to working together with a common battle-plan. Command fell to the senior officer present, and could change as each new ship arrived. The escorts were torn between staying with the convoy, abandoning survivors in the water, as DEMS regulations demanded, and picking them up, leaving the convoy unprotected and risking being torpedoed themselves. When U say Happy Time BBY, this was the Apogee of the entire Uboat campaign!

Mister_M

11-03-21, 06:42 AM

...the destroyers escorting the tankers were painted an inappropriate shade of grey, which the U-Boats used to locate the convoy in the moonlight.

Apparently, certain shades of grey paint made a ship highly visible on a clear night when the moon was out....thus the highly specific regulations about what shade of grey you were supposed to use.

I think that's why dark/black hulls were not repainted : it was very good to camouflage the ship at night. Only ships with white/bright/saturated colors were repainted with medium/dark grey paint.

To confirm this, it would be useful to find original (peace time) paint sheme of these ships :

3. Ships with superstructures (probably) repainted in grey : the hull remains very dark (black). HEINA superstructures are perhaps actually white... :hmmm:

https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2021/10/27//21102711081318069017639830.png (https://www.casimages.com/i/21102711081318069017639830.png.html)

4. Ships in plain grey (probably a war repaint) : note that there are different shades of grey from ship to ship...

https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2021/10/27//21102711081818069017639832.png (https://www.casimages.com/i/21102711081818069017639832.png.html)

kapuhy

11-03-21, 12:16 PM

Interesting photos of colored sketches below, showing how ship camouflage changed from WWI - they are of the standard "War" class merchantman "War Drake" in 1918 and the long bridge deck merchant "Clearpool".

It seems they decided in WW2 that the complicated dazzle camouflage was not very effective

Description of second image says:

"Dazzle painting was not used as she would almost always be sailing in convoy"

...which kinda makes sense: dazzle does not help to hide a ship, only obscure its AOB, but if your target is in convoy accompanied by several rows of ships all sharing same course and speed, you have more ways to gather data then eyeballing a single target?

No idea if this was really the reasoning behind dropping dazzle of course.

Mister_M

11-04-21, 02:44 AM

I think that's why dark/black hulls were not repainted : it was very good to camouflage the ship at night. Only ships with white/bright/saturated colors were repainted with medium/dark grey paint.

To confirm this, it would be useful to find original (peace time) paint sheme of these ships :

The first ship I've searched for tends to confirm my hypothesis : Mercier had white superstructures (https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/986.html).

Same for Talthybius : https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2712829&postcount=1

Phidias had white superstructures and a black strip at the top of the stack (https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/982.html).

Daru : https://www.wrecksite.eu/img/wrecks/z_daru_mv.jpg

Sally Maersk : https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/1089.html

...

So, finally, it seems that it was more important to remove white surfaces than black ones.

iambecomelife

11-04-21, 10:12 PM

Description of second image says:

"Dazzle painting was not used as she would almost always be sailing in convoy"

...which kinda makes sense: dazzle does not help to hide a ship, only obscure its AOB, but if your target is in convoy accompanied by several rows of ships all sharing same course and speed, you have more ways to gather data then eyeballing a single target?

No idea if this was really the reasoning behind dropping dazzle of course.

I think that's why dark/black hulls were not repainted : it was very good to camouflage the ship at night. Only ships with white/bright/saturated colors were repainted with medium/dark grey paint.

To confirm this, it would be useful to find original (peace time) paint sheme of these ships :

I am pretty sure Talthybius was an Alfred Holt co. ship, so her colors would have been white superstructure with brown trim, brown masts, blue funnel, & black hull. :up: Not sure about the others....unfortunately they are not as distinct looking as the Blue Funnelers and I will have to look up!

Mister_M

11-06-21, 07:05 AM

So, to start again from the beginning :

* Grey paint was the general rule for Allied merchant vessels. Some ships had funnel tops and top half of masts painted white so to blend with the sky.
* Ships built during the war were delivered in grey paint.

An important detail is missing : what shade of grey was it ? Since it appears than certain shades of grey would give position to the u-boats at full moon nights :

the destroyers escorting the tankers were painted an inappropriate shade of grey, which the U-Boats used to locate the convoy in the moonlight.

Apparently, certain shades of grey paint made a ship highly visible on a clear night when the moon was out....thus the highly specific regulations about what shade of grey you were supposed to use.

You partially answered the question by publishing the "official" colors, but we don't know what exact grey color used the merchants...

"Janus" practically glowed in the moonlight because of grey and white paint.

Out of curiosity I looked up Janus's shipping company in a WW2 ID book - sure enough the paint scheme for that line was grey and white.

Janus' peace paint sheme was probably the same as Mercier's one which was light grey : https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/986.html

* As a consequence of the previous point, there was not a sudden transition from peacetime colours to wartime grey. Some ships - probably the ones whose trading routes were closer to the main war theatres - were repainted at the earliest opportunity after the war broke out, whereas a few others are reported to have switched colours as late as January 1941.

And probably many changed much more later... or never. :06:

* The implementation of safety rules was somehow more strict for ships sailing in convoys. These rules included:

no dark funnel smokes (this would have ruled out old coal-burning steamers from convoys).

There were "fast" and "slow" convoys. The latters probably were for old coal steamers (which produced dark smoke)... So this "rule" was only for fast convoys...

* neutral ships retained their company colours for most of the war even when sailing in convoys. If I can add a personal note, this might have been sort of a nonsense. According to German engagement rules any ship sailing within Allied convoys, even though belonging to a neutral nation, would have been a valid target, and retaining peacetime colours would only have made her an easier prey. In other words, convoy protection would have nullified "neutrality privileges" or, even worse, it could have rendered them counterproductive, but this is probably something which was not so clear at that time.

Answer :

Possibly because you do not intend to stay in the convoy for entire cruise and don't want to have to paint them back on when you separate from it. Plus, there's a small chance that given two equally juicy targets in the periscope, U-Boat will select one that belongs to the enemy nation.

gap

06-14-22, 06:06 AM

Resurrecting this thread to share a picture of the French reefer Damohey. It is interesting because it portrays the ship during allied landings of 11 November 1942, as she ran aground off Fedala, French Morocco.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uXz0UHk2i2Q/UuFzozs0QwI/AAAAAAAALOo/Wb7EJvdStq0/s1600/DAHOMEY.jpg

As you can clearly see, to that date her funnel was still painted with the colors of her pre-war owners, Chargeurs Réunis (https://wrecksite.eu/img/ownerbuilder/decoration/thumbs/chargeurs_reunisdecoration.jpg).
Ship's history is a bit unclear though. Some sources say that the ship, under Free French control, was carrying provisions for the allied fleet, whereas other sources state that the vessel, still under Vichy control, had been used as a blockship for hampering Operation Torch landings.

Who is right? :hmm2:

EDIT:

Just found a webpage listing pre-1970 French merchants:

https://www.marine-marchande.net/Perchoc/Perchoc-11/11-Perchoc.htm

Under Dahomey's timeline, it states:

11/08/1942 – Upon the arrival of the Americans in Morocco, she voluntarily ran aground in Bouznika, north of Casablanca.

An excellent picture is also provided with distinct neutrality markings visible on hull side:

https://www.marine-marchande.net/Perchoc/Perchoc-11/Dahomey.jpg

That means that after French capitulation, the ship remained in Vichy French (nominally neutral) merchant fleet. Puzzle solved :)

gap

06-16-22, 07:17 AM

Another controversial example, still regarding a Chargeurs Réunis-owned vessels, the refrigerated passenger-cargo ship Forbin.

A basic timeline of her eventful career is available here (https://forummarine.forumactif.com/t8773p275-les-paquebots-et-cargos-armes-en-guerre). This is an excerpt:

The mixed passenger-cargo ship Forbin is launched in 1922 by the shipbuilding company Forges et Chantiers de la Méditerranée in Graville, Le Havre; in March 1923 she enters service with the steamship company Chargeurs Réunis, Le Havre; on 14 November 1939 she is requisitioned [by the French Government]; in May 1940 she moves from Dunkirk to Le Havre; due to the bombardments in Le Havre, on 11 June 1940 she leaves for Bordeaux; on the eve of the Armistice of 22 June 1940 she evacuates Bordeaux with 500 passengers, mostly Polish and Czech citizens, and she sets course for Gibraltar for continuing her war service on the English side; on July 7th she arrives in Liverpool where she in one of the first merchant ships joining the FNFL [Free French Naval Forces]. On July 17th she is seized by the British; she is placed under the control of the Ministry of War Transport and managed by Bibby Line with a FNFL crew.

The following picture is provided together with the above information:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/16/88/84/92/forbin10.jpg

Unlike the caption, I believe the picture to portray the Forbin in her pre-war paint scheme. As a vessel under direct control of MoWT and crewed by the FNFL, I doubt she would have retained her old colors, but the again, who knows? The ensign wore by the vessel could help clearing up this doubt, but unfortunately the picture resolution is too poor to discerne the presence or absence of the Cross of Lorraine on the French Flag flown at ship's stern :hmm2:

kapuhy

06-17-22, 03:58 AM

Unlike the caption, I believe the picture to portray the Forbin in her pre-war paint scheme. As a vessel under direct control of MoWT and crewed by the FNFL, I doubt she would have retained her old colors, but the again, who knows? The ensign wore by the vessel could help clearing up this doubt, but unfortunately the picture resolution is too poor to discerne the presence or absence of the Cross of Lorraine on the French Flag flown at ship's stern :hmm2:

Ockham's razor says it's pre-war photo: no armament, no camouflage, no Cross of Lorraine, no signs of intensive wartime use, no emergency liferafts.

gap

06-17-22, 05:29 AM

Ockham's razor says it's pre-war photo: no armament, no camouflage, no Cross of Lorraine, no signs of intensive wartime use, no emergency liferafts.

Thank you kapuhy, I agree with Ockham. Although he is only a barber he is quite proficient in naval history :D

gap

06-17-22, 05:54 AM

Still reviewing Chargeurs Réunis wartime fleet. Two of their liners, Formose and Aurigny, were in Bueonos Aires when the French Armistice was signed. They were interned shortly after, and between July 1943 and July 1944 they were placed in service with the Argentine merchant fleet under the names of Río Tunuyán and General San Martín respectively. Their pictures in this role depict the style of neutrality markings adopted by Argentine during the war:

https://www.histarmar.com.ar/BuquesMercantes/Marina%20Mercante%20Argentina/Pasaje/RioTunuyan-1.bmp

http://www.histarmar.com.ar/BuquesMercantes/Marina%20Mercante%20Argentina/Carga/GeneralSanMartin-1-c-AGN650.jpg

gap

06-20-22, 03:39 PM

Another interesting photo of a Chargeurs Réunis steamer in wartime colours is offered by Marine forum (https://forummarine.forumactif.com/t8773p125-les-paquebots-et-cargos-armes-en-guerre):

https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/16/88/84/92/cap_to12.jpg

The caption says:

Cap Tourane in convoy, she sports the national markings of the Armistice.

The mixed passenger-cargo ship Cap Tourane had quite an interesting wartime career.
Requisitioned by the French Government in September 1939, after the Armistice she kept loyal to the Vichy Government and she continued her pre-war task of connecting metropolitan France with her colonies in Indo-China.
On 13 September, 1940 she was involved in a accident when two ships in her convoy struck a group of mines off the West coast of Sardinia. The nearby Cap Tourane was severely damaged in the explosion, and she had to be towed in Marseille where dry-dock repairs lasted until January 1941.
On November 13th, while sailing again in a French convoy, she was captured by a British taskforce off Durban, and she was subsequently requisitioned in Allied service under the management of Ellerman Lines.
From then onwards she sailed routinely within Allied convoys until, in 1945, she was returned to owners in rather poor conditions. The only notable event of the late wartime service is her participation in Normandy Landings as barracks ship in the British sector of operations.

What would be interesting, is discovering whether the picture above portrays Cap Tourane during her Vichy France service or rather during the early part of her career on the Allied side, when she might have kept her neutrality markings for a while. If someone could identify the ship on the background or the aircraft on the top left, please let me know.

Regarding French neutrality markings, I think having read somewhere that they consisted of a French flag on a solid color squared background. This is also confirmed by one of pictures I shared at post #69 in this thread (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2813814&postcount=69). I don't remember the background color used but, as shown by the pictures, this might have varied.

Last, the same French forum thread whose link I posted above offers a picture on Cap St. Jacques, a sister ship of Cap Tourane, after her conversion to a hospital ship. I post it here in case someone is interested in seeing it:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/16/88/84/92/cap_st10.jpg

EDIT

Just found another old picture which is said to portray Cap Tourane at Sword Beach during Normandy Landings:

https://i.imgur.com/jTe6Hdk.jpg

Again I cannot confirm this as I don't see any armament, landing nets or extra liferafts aboard the vessel, but if any of you can id the lighter or add any further detail which might shed some light please let me know.

gap

06-20-22, 06:36 PM

Still talking about French neutrality markings (i.e. the French tricolour over a square background), now that I think it better the background might have been yellow with a black outline, though the latter might have been barely visible on dark hulls. This picture of the banana boat Kakoulima provides an excellent example:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Entr%C3%A9e_dans_le_port_d%27Oran_Kakoulima_Charge urs_R%C3%A9unis.jpg

kapuhy

07-04-22, 09:17 AM

Found something that might add to this thread while looking for ship plans:

This is Dutch ship "Java", from NV Stoomvaart Maatschappij 'Nederland' - photos are from 1939 (peacetime colors) and in unspecified time during the war:

https://www.marhisdata.nl/image.php?code=12102&hash=fc3ba9c57460f3e68b079cb26a201de7edf23f5f&opt=5

https://www.marhisdata.nl/image.php?code=16279&hash=700c50adce121bee8b8e280a248fbe5218165bfb&opt=5

From their posters, funnel colors should be black top, yellow bottom. What is visible here is that while ship was entirely painted grey, funnel is still in two different colors, with separation line between them matching pre-war one (possibly different shades of gray?)

Edit: BTW, was there any documented case of ships belonging to neutral countries sailing camouflaged and darkened? It would be helpful to know this for implementing proper colors in SH5, because clones keep "borrowing" textures from their parent ships, leaving modder a choice between having some camouflaged neutrals in convoy or lots of uncamouflaged combatants with navlights on. The former situation would be of course preferable, but was there any such case in real life?

JapLance

07-08-22, 01:02 AM

What would be interesting, is discovering whether the picture above portrays Cap Tourane during her Vichy France service or rather during the early part of her career on the Allied side, when she might have kept her neutrality markings for a while. If someone could identify the ship on the background or the aircraft on the top left, please let me know.

The aircraft could probably be a Martin Maryland, which doesn't solve much as it was used by both the Vichy French and the British.

I would bet on British nationality because of the white spot on the tail, but not a certainty.

gap

07-10-22, 06:45 AM

This is Dutch ship "Java", from NV Stoomvaart Maatschappij 'Nederland' - photos are from 1939 (peacetime colors) and in unspecified time during the war:

[...]

From their posters, funnel colors should be black top, yellow bottom.

Yes, that's correct. Lloyd's Book of House Flags and Funnels also gives the same color combination.

What is visible here is that while ship was entirely painted grey, funnel is still in two different colors, with separation line between them matching pre-war one (possibly different shades of gray?)

If you look closely, king posts and masts display the same scheme. My guess is that their tops had the same color as hull and superstructure, while the bases were painted in a darker shade of grey. That might have made them lesser distinguishable from far away, when their silhouettes were the only visible part of the ship against the light background of the sky.

Edit: BTW, was there any documented case of ships belonging to neutral countries sailing camouflaged and darkened?

I have read reports of neutral vessels having been attacked by U-boats because they were darkened at night, because they were zig-zagging, because they were sailing where they shouldn't (according to German restrictions), because they lacked neutrality markings and their nationality wasn't otherwise clearly distinguishable, and because of... human error. So yes, darkened neutral ships were a thing, but from the game perspective they should be set as valid targets (i.e. they should be placed in "free" national rosters).
As for camouflaged neutral merchants, I can't neither confirm nor discard them, but I think the best "camouflage" for neutral vessels would have been displaying their national flag and neutral markings as clearly as possible. This is so true that they retained those marking even when sailing within Allied convoys. See the convoy sketches posted by iambecomelife in this thread for an example of that.

It would be helpful to know this for implementing proper colors in SH5, because clones keep "borrowing" textures from their parent ships, leaving modder a choice between having some camouflaged neutrals in convoy or lots of uncamouflaged combatants with navlights on. The former situation would be of course preferable, but was there any such case in real life?

If no better solution is found, I think we could make the grey skin standard :hmmm:

gap

07-10-22, 06:55 AM

The aircraft could probably be a Martin Maryland, which doesn't solve much as it was used by both the Vichy French and the British.

Thank you for your feedback JapLance :salute:

I would bet on British nationality because of the white spot on the tail, but not a certainty.

Or maybe Free French :hmm2:

https://i.imgur.com/z1N87de.jpg

JapLance

07-10-22, 07:06 AM

That's why I think it's a British Maryland:

https://i.imgur.com/nn2X8OA.jpg

The Free French Maryland you showed has the white parts in the rudder, further back.

:salute:

gap

07-11-22, 05:18 PM

That's why I think it's a British Maryland:

https://i.imgur.com/nn2X8OA.jpg

The Free French Maryland you showed has the white parts in the rudder, further back.

:salute:

You are probably right about the plane. I wish we could id the ship on the background. She is peculiar in having one or maybe two large funnels. She looks like a late 30s passenger ship converted as a troopship :hmm2: