Radio depth

[Bubblehead1980]

Issue want to correct for forthcoming TMO update (if possible) is should be able to send contact reports at periscope depth(from what understand fleetboats could and in sim already receive messages at periscope depth) not have to go to 35 ft or so exposing sub.


Which file(s) do need to look at? Have not located them thus far.

[propbeanie]

I've been wanting to do that also. The subs could actually "talk" deeper than PD later in the war, so I was wondering about raising the level of the 'antenna' maybe, but haven't gotten around to experimenting with it yet. I haven't looked to make certain, but I think it is tied to "radar depth", aka: "Snorkel depth", or, if modded further - aka: "Decks Awash"... :salute:

[KaleunMarco]

I agree. I would add length to the radio antenna such that it would break the surface at whatever depth you deem appropriate.

Why not make it match the periscope length. Then you can radio from PD.

[ETR3(SS)]

I've changed it...somehow. All I can remember is that it is not something simple or obvious.


As for the radio side of things, this is where my experience comes in. Fleet boats had the following receiving radio sets:


RAK-6: This set covers the VLF, LF, and MF radio bands from 15 kHz to 600 kHz


RAL-6: This set covers the MF and HF radio bands from 300 kHz to 23 mHz


RBH-2: This set covers the MF and HF radio bands in frequencies from 300 kHz to 1.2 mHz and 1.7 mHz to 16 mHz.


The lower frequencies (VLF,LF) would be data only in the form of morse code, while the higher frequencies (MF,HF) would be voice circuits. As such receiving radio signals while submerged would only be possible on lower frequencies, with VLF being the best being able to penetrate to a depth of 40m or 131ft.


Now the transmit side of things:


TBL-5/6/7: Can transmit voice (75kHz-600kHz, 2mhz-18mHz) and data (175kHz-600kHz, 2mHz-18mHz) in the LF, MF, and HF ranges.


And the final puzzle piece, the antenna:

https://maritime.org/tech/drawings/radio-antenna-fourinchgun_ss392-s6700-69733alt1_5400-11-0287.jpg


Note the Transmit Antenna and the separate Receive Antenna. In order to transmit and be received, that antenna needs to be out of the water. There are of course other antennas onboard but those are for LOS comms, basically short range.

[propbeanie]

Surely it's a sim file setting... at least, I ~hope~ it is... lol - thanks for the info ETR3(SS)! :salute:

[KaleunMarco]

Surely it's a sim file setting... at least, I ~hope~ it is... lol - thanks for the info ETR3(SS)! :salute:

the antenna length is in a sim file. C:\Ubisoft\FOTRSU 1.46\Data\Library\USSubParts\Sensors.sim

and stop calling me Surely.
(too easy to pass up)
:Kaleun_Salute:

[propbeanie]

Surely is the one sitting behind you, with the pleated, short skirt, funky jacket, and saddle shoes with Bobby socks...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/63/d5/0d/63d50d9bb7f00bcf2b1a72ca60ba107d.jpg

[Bubblehead1980]

[QUOTE=KaleunMarco;2747126]the antenna length is in a sim file. C:\Ubisoft\FOTRSU 1.46\Data\Library\USSubParts\Sensors.sim

and stop calling me Surely.
(too easy to pass up)
:Kaleun_Salute:[/QUOTE

I have that file open in TMO. I do see a radar but no radio antenna , unles labeled something else. I see where on SensorType the radio antenna is an option along with visual, radar, etc

[Jeff-Groves]

obj_Extensible has the radio option.
Only the German boats use it.
Not saying you can't cheat and do a US Sub that way.

[ETR3(SS)]

I'm working on what it was I did to change it.

[KaleunMarco]

I think you're confusing radio and radar here. Also, this will not work. I'm working on what it was I did to change it.

you are correct.
please edit or delete your response as i have done to mine so that there is no confusion moving forward.
:Kaleun_Salute:

[ETR3(SS)]

Still looking into the how I did this. I'll add this bit of info though, the game considers you either surfaced or submerged with no in between. Once flagged as submerged the radio is disabled along with the diesel engines, unless you have a snorkel equipped. New options become available once submerged as well like emergency surface, deploying decoys, and silent running. There is another controller for when the deck crew moves below decks that doesn't coincide with the surfaced/submerged flag. Using my Skipjack as an example, you can be "submerged" at 32ft with the bridge still manned until 35ft!:o

Thus far I've tried changing settings in the sim and cfg files to no effect. I want to say it's either 3d model based or node location based, which one of either one is anybodies guess at this point. I'm going to try to recreate one of the nuc subs this weekend and perform more rigorous testing to see if I can uncover an answer.

[propbeanie]

I've been looking at the US subs in FotRSU, and none of them have a "real" radio, only a virtual one, attached to a virtual antenna, which visually is rendered as a part of the sub, not on its own node... Snorkel depth, or radar depth is when you can use the radio in FotRSU, but changing that would not be the way to get the radio to work, since they the radar would not work... it uses the underwater controller for on and off... in FotRSU, that is. A nuc, it wouldn't matter...

[KaleunMarco]

Still looking into the how I did this. I'll add this bit of info though, the game considers you either surfaced or submerged with no in between. Once flagged as submerged the radio is disabled along with the diesel engines, unless you have a snorkel equipped. New options become available once submerged as well like emergency surface, deploying decoys, and silent running. There is another controller for when the deck crew moves below decks that doesn't coincide with the surfaced/submerged flag. Using my Skipjack as an example, you can be "submerged" at 32ft with the bridge still manned until 35ft!:o

Thus far I've tried changing settings in the sim and cfg files to no effect. I want to say it's either 3d model based or node location based, which one of either one is anybodies guess at this point. I'm going to try to recreate one of the nuc subs this weekend and perform more rigorous testing to see if I can uncover an answer.

i can understand this explanation being reality....it is very UBI.
:Kaleun_Salute:

[Jeff-Groves]

I'm working on what it was I did to change it.
You did use a U-boat Snorkel.

[ETR3(SS)]

The great mystery is solved! The answer lies in the 3d model of the boats hull, when the last vertex is underwater the game flags you as submerged.


I started testing each class of boat to see when they would flag, starting with the S-boats. My eyebrow was raised when the Porpoise flagged at 40-41 ft. S-boats flagged at 30 and everything else at 39. So I took my Newsub template and edited the 3d model by removing the flagstaff aft but leaving the navigation lights there. Test revealed a submerged depth of 31 ft.

[propbeanie]

... but that is the sub hull, and not the sail, unless of course, it is integrated into the hull? Or does that count also?

[Jeff-Groves]

Just add one vert to the hull and place it as high as you want.
You could add an object as high as you want but hide it with settings so it does not show in Game.

As a test? Take the Antena on one of the Conning towers and move it way up.
If no change? Add something to the hull way up high.

[Bubblehead1980]

Somewhere around 34-37 feet radio can transmit contact reports. I assume that is when the sail breaks the water enough to transmit. Yet another flaw courtesy of ubi.

[ETR3(SS)]

... but that is the sub hull, and not the sail, unless of course, it is integrated into the hull? Or does that count also?Correct, it seems the sail doesn't matter at all. If you joined the 2 in blender or some other such program it would make a difference.

Just add one vert to the hull and place it as high as you want.
You could add an object as high as you want but hide it with settings so it does not show in Game.

As a test? Take the Antena on one of the Conning towers and move it way up.
If no change? Add something to the hull way up high.Precisely what I was thinking, add a single vertex to trick the game. I've tried moving the Antenna node in the game to no effect. I believe the game strictly checks the hull 3d model only.

Somewhere around 34-37 feet radio can transmit contact reports. I assume that is when the sail breaks the water enough to transmit. Yet another flaw courtesy of ubi.That's less than 39 ft which would have the flagstaff sticking out of the water, ergo the boat isn't "submerged." I wouldn't go so far as to call it a flaw though, more an oversight. It does have me curious as to how SH3 handles this same scenario though.

[Bubblehead1980]

Correct, it seems the sail doesn't matter at all. If you joined the 2 in blender or some other such program it would make a difference.

Precisely what I was thinking, add a single vertex to trick the game. I've tried moving the Antenna node in the game to no effect. I believe the game strictly checks the hull 3d model only.

That's less than 39 ft which would have the flagstaff sticking out of the water, ergo the boat isn't "submerged." I wouldn't go so far as to call it a flaw though, more an oversight. It does have me curious as to how SH3 handles this same scenario though.


Yes, sub becomes visible to enemy as the sail etc is exposed so when close in on a task force or convoy (and have to get ridiculously close in the game to send a contact report anyways) you often expose yourself to being detecting, ruining any set up, plus gunfire from nearby ships and even ramming. Have had all three happen when tried to send contact report submerged. Definitely a flaw or an oversight (among many others).

[KaleunMarco]

The great mystery is solved! The answer lies in the 3d model of the boats hull, when the last vertex is underwater the game flags you as submerged.


I started testing each class of boat to see when they would flag, starting with the S-boats. My eyebrow was raised when the Porpoise flagged at 40-41 ft. S-boats flagged at 30 and everything else at 39. So I took my Newsub template and edited the 3d model by removing the flagstaff aft but leaving the navigation lights there. Test revealed a submerged depth of 31 ft.

so.....if i understand the thread, the radio is not a "part" like the radar or sonar or deck gun, it just is, like the flag or any one of several "parts".
when the boat submerges, a bit is flipped that indicates that the radio will not transmit and when the boat surfaces, that bit status is reversed.
we, as modders, cannot manipulate the radio as we can manipulate other "parts".
:hmmm:

[propbeanie]

If you look at the conn of most any of the US subs, there is a "radio antenna" up top, on the shears. However, there is no "node" associated with it, so it is not a "radio antenna" in the way the "radar antenna" is to the boat. Also, from what ETR3(SS) is saying, it doesn't matter anyway, because the submarine dat file for the hull is what determines if you are submerged or surfaced... Now, with this info, making a little vertex (vortex in this case??) set to invisible that sticks up about where the periscope is when elevated should let you use your comms... maybe... Would the AI be able to see that, as they would a periscope?... A submarine with an integrated conn would not need that, since its shears are there... the periscope however, is its own entity... hmmm... :hmmm: - but I have been able to fone home while submerged, but it is above periscope depth, but not quite to radar depth on one of the boats (Tambor??), yet on another, it is above radar depth... maybe it does count the shears as part of the boat?... I dunno... after what we just went through with the AI subs, I'm about all "tested" out... lol

[ETR3(SS)]

so.....if i understand the thread, the radio is not a "part" like the radar or sonar or deck gun, it just is, like the flag or any one of several "parts".
when the boat submerges, a bit is flipped that indicates that the radio will not transmit and when the boat surfaces, that bit status is reversed.
we, as modders, cannot manipulate the radio as we can manipulate other "parts".
:hmmm:This is correct. The only way to circumvent this would be to edit the 3d model itself in 3ds, blender, or whatever.

If you look at the conn of most any of the US subs, there is a "radio antenna" up top, on the shears. However, there is no "node" associated with it, so it is not a "radio antenna" in the way the "radar antenna" is to the boat. Also, from what ETR3(SS) is saying, it doesn't matter anyway, because the submarine dat file for the hull is what determines if you are submerged or surfaced... Now, with this info, making a little vertex (vortex in this case??) set to invisible that sticks up about where the periscope is when elevated should let you use your comms... maybe... Would the AI be able to see that, as they would a periscope?... A submarine with an integrated conn would not need that, since its shears are there... the periscope however, is its own entity... hmmm... :hmmm: - but I have been able to fone home while submerged, but it is above periscope depth, but not quite to radar depth on one of the boats (Tambor??), yet on another, it is above radar depth... maybe it does count the shears as part of the boat?... I dunno... after what we just went through with the AI subs, I'm about all "tested" out... lolIf it is just a vertex (vertex singular, vertices plural) you add then I believe it would be undetectable by the AI (It's been a while since I've tested it, but the AI sees nodes and not models). Of course doing this has the side effect of the game thinking you are surfaced and allowing all normal surfaced evolutions (such as running on diesels). My Nuc boats are not immune from this behavior despite having an integrated sail, hence the nuc boats are submerged at around 32 ft. As I mentioned earlier, the depth at which you can transmit will be completely dependent upon the design of the 3d model. For a more consistent experience, I'd recommend altering the 3d models of all fleet boats. Things to alter would be the removal of real life removable objects such as the flag staff, jack staff, stanchions, and lifelines. Things to keep would be the cleats, bollards, capstans, and navigation lights.

[ETR3(SS)]

So just performed a test of the theory with mixed results. A single vertex will not work UNLESS it is attached to another vertex creating some sort of geometry. Since I knew the highest point on the default hull was the flagstaff aft, I cloned a vertex from there and moved it out on the Y axis. Didn't work, game wasn't fooled. I tried again this time moving the vertices at the end of the flagstaff along the same axis, result was a "submerged" depth of 67 ft.


Now, the another downside to this is the uv mapping. If the number of vertices of the uv map doesn't match the number of vertices on the model, then you'll get an all black boat. I do wonder however if we could make the node invisible much like the DMG_NSS_Balao node and include an unaltered 3d model on another node that was visible.:hmmm:

[Jeff-Groves]

Attach a 3d mesh to the hull (Don't matter what it is)
Set it to invisible and move it up as a test.

[Mad Mardigan]

Hey guys...:Kaleun_Cheers:

Been following the convo here for a bit, and have to say that I am fascinated by the prospect of it being figured out to be able to send a contact report, while submerged.

Something that crossed My ol' dusty, rusted, beat up HD of a brain..

Know the radio, part of the gramophone side of things.. is a horse of a different color, but bear with Me on this. I often will turn that thing on & listen to news & music while tooling about while on a patrol.

What got Me to thinking was this bit.. when you submerge, (I think it is in the radio.ini. if I have that right..) that when you submerge to a particular depth.. the radio tunes out or loses the signal. With the S class boat, however, upon hitting peri depth.. the radio would be.. not full strength but would still get a signal. The other boats, would be the time they hit peri depth, would have that signal lost, altogether.

Now, knowing that bit of info.. that got Me to thinking.. what if the control for that, could somehow have the nodes, vertices whatever it is that is tied to the ability to send/receive messages & have that tied into the controller for the controller for the radio for news & music.. between that control there.. & maybe say.. adjusting peri depth to say.. ohh, 2 or 3' lower in the files that control that aspect.. would come together & allow for being able to send/receive messages. :hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:

Would that be possibly feasible...

I freely admit, I don't know jack about modding, especially when it comes to things nowadays.. I used to do a bit of tinkering about with that, but.. that was many, MANY moons ago.. :haha: :D

Just spit balling here... & hope My train of thought there, helps kick some rock loose to produce a 'Eureka' moment... :yep: :shucks:

M. M

:Kaleun_Salute:

[propbeanie]

I wonder how much the SubName cfg file has to do with the relation between the 3D artwork, and those settings. For example:
S-18
-----

[Properties]
PeriscopeDepth=15.5;meters
SnorkelDepth=9.2;meters

Gato
----

[Properties]
PeriscopeDepth=18.6;meters
SnorkelDepth=12.8;meters
The Gato's snorkel depth (radar depth) is very similar to the S-18's periscope depth...

[KaleunMarco]

Just spit balling here...

what in the hell is spitballin'?
:doh:

[propbeanie]

That's where you take your old Bic stick pen, pull the pen portion out of the tube, take a little piece of paper, chew it in your mouth to make a mush you then insert in the pen tube, then blow it really hard to hit your 6th grade teacher in the back of the head, only to have her turn around just after launch, and hit he square between the eyes, and she sees you with the Bic pen... just spittballin'... lol

[Mad Mardigan]

Just spit balling here...

what in the hell is spitballin'?
:doh:

That's where you take your old Bic stick pen, pull the pen portion out of the tube, take a little piece of paper, chew it in your mouth to make a mush you then insert in the pen tube, then blow it really hard to hit your 6th grade teacher in the back of the head, only to have her turn around just after launch, and hit he square between the eyes, and she sees you with the Bic pen... just spittballin'... lol

Close, propbeanie.. the other case of doing that, is taking that mushy paper, shooting it out of said bic pen (that's been gutted, of course.. :haha:) & seeing just how many of them mush balls you can get to stick & stay where you shoot them.. be it on a wall, a ceiling.. wherever... :hmmm:

Though, in this case.. KM.. is what My Grand Dad referred to, with being in meetings, (He did QA with Liquid Carbonics & General Dynamic's.. He was even on the QA team overseeing the construction team that built the 'Nautilus', Our 1st nuke sub.) of throwing out ideas, to resolve problems or issues... aka spitballin'.. seeing what solution stuck & fixed or resolved an issue.

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[KaleunMarco]

throwing out ideas, to resolve problems or issues... aka spitballin'.. seeing what solution stuck & fixed or resolved an issue.


blue-skying
white-boarding (not water boarding)
truth-to-power
aka creative brainstorming

is this what you are trying to describe?

[Mad Mardigan]

blue-skying
white-boarding (not water boarding)
truth-to-power
aka creative brainstorming

is this what you are trying to describe?

Yeah, KM..

& with this reply am going to back off, as I don't want to derail the intent of the thread.. :salute:

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[ETR3(SS)]

Attach a 3d mesh to the hull (Don't matter what it is)
Set it to invisible and move it up as a test.This works, however I'm having trouble making it invisible. Advice?

[propbeanie]

I had to have a consult with my consultant... 'cause I forgot how... lol - but s7rikeback says:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/805022417650974750/845800387830087731/Capture.PNG

Now, if that's correct, it's my idea. If it's wrong, it's his idea... lol

[ETR3(SS)]

Yeah I was aware of that method PB, perhaps that might have to be the road we take as a work around for the time being. Might have to do two nodes of the hull model. One that is invisible and has the geometry to enable a deeper radio depth, and another as a sub node that displays a normal hull model. :hmmm:


Otherwise, a method of making certain geometry invisible I think would work better if possible.

[propbeanie]

Ah well, sorry. :hmmm: