General questions about SH5 and Mods

[Rosomaha]

Hi. My experience of playing SH5 is about zero, and the little that is based on the stock SH5. Of course, I have run test missions many times, but the gameplay and the SH5 Campaigns are the most unfamiliar in the series for me. You can guess about the work of some things from the contents of the game files, but this does not always show reality and means that it works in the game and is not an appendix-remainder of the previous part. Answers can save time without having to figure out every moment by experimenting. In general, I wanted to find out the following aspects for possible modding:

1. The staff of guns on ships. I saw in the storage of original game some stock of various animations for combat installations, and this could give hope for prospects, but I never saw the AI shooters behind the guns in SH5, there are sailors and other personnel walking, standing, smoking and so on on the deck, but the guns are empty. Is this always an unfinished game function? No one has ever studied this direction, tried to "revive" the guns? Maybe they tried it, but had to give it up for some reason? Mods?

2. AI-submarines. In SH5, for the first time, it was added as a separate independent AI class (I see the corresponding controller in the game). Who has a lot of SH5 gaming experience can briefly share: How do they behave? Do they only walk on the surface? They can attack, shoot back, use the installed weapons? To escape? Active maneuvers in contact? Maybe there is some fundamental factor, a feature?

3. Has the intelligence AI of the submarine chasers been improved (in the huge-mods and by how much? Since I tried many times in a single-player test mission different Destroyers with different settings (including Late War period, Veteran, Elite level, etc.) - they all turned out to be very stupid, clumsy and low bombing accuracy, it was not difficult to get away from them, they never sank my submarine with depth charges in the test mission. The only thing that was noted - the British destroyers hunted a little better than the others. The same Destroyers in SH3-4 created many times more problems than do the destroyers in the original-stock SH5.

4. Magnetic torpedo fuses. I remember reading a topic here a long time ago that they do not work in SH5. Is that how it stayed? Has this been fixed in mods? Did any manage to make it work?

5. AI-torpedoes. On the aircraft and may be on ships? How about this in SH5? There are in the Mod? Progress compared to previous versions of SH? Do they work? Or do they work poorly?

[kapuhy]

1 - No idea here, sorry. Never saw staff manning guns and don't know if it's possible other than modeling gunners as part of gun mesh.
2 - AI subs can shoot torpedoes and can operate submerged, in campaign as well (my experience here is limited too but I did see Polish sub torpedo a German battleship in Baltic operations campaign. Horrific experience, never saw that coming until torpedo splash).
3 - I don't know whether you've tested with stock or TWoS, but with the latter destroyers can be pretty persistent. They are still subject to many unfixed/unfixable AI bugs though - existence of land is out of context problem for them, and small subchasers have problems with depth charging because they try to avoid collision with (larger than them) submarine (even though submarine is 200 meters below them). Edit: this might be important for your Vosper, I certainly had my Fairmile behave this way. Y-guns work fine but DC racks constantly missed because of this.
4 - Magnetic torpedoes certainly work in TWoS. Their dud problems in early war are modeled too, though, so don't be shocked if you have 3 out of 4 fail in this period.
5 - Never saw surface or air unit use torpedo. I remember vdr1981 saying air torpedoes can work, but require some very specific way to set up in order for a plane to drop them.

[Muckenberg]

Good day
To your question. Yes, I have to confirm that AI submarines fire torpedoes and can sink. I also witnessed an AI submarine duel with an escort. The AI submarine sailed at full throttle and successfully avoided depth charges. He even used reverse gear. I have no idea what depth he can dive the most. I also don't know if he can run quietly.
One thing would also interest me. How an AI submarine works when approaching an enemy. It has happened to me several times that the submarine arrived, but did not attack the enemy. She wandered around for a while, and although the target was clearly visible, it seemed as if the submarine could not see it.
I even saw a Polish submarine firing a volley of torpedoes through the periscope underwater. I was really surprised.

[Rosomaha]

Thanks for the answers, friends.

[Muckenberg]

Unfortunately, I can't confirm whether AI submarines use an onboard cannon and anti-aircraft cannons. But I would say no. :Kaleun_Salute:

[gap]

Hi Rosomaha, sorry for the late replies.

1 - I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing, but in stock game two crew members are assigned to the deck gun. Skip to 13:17 in the video below to see them in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OELH-BHbcE

2 - AI subs can use torpedoes and they can operate both submerged and surfaced. Their Ai is pretty limited though and they CAN'T use guns.

3 - Assuming that you are using IRAI, ASW vessel's AI is pretty erratic. I think veterancy level and fatigue play a role in deciding how clever/accurate they are, but there is a certain degree of randomness involved too. Rather than as flaw, this is a feature wanted by TDW. Nonetheless, IIRC, within IRAI files there is an .ini or cfg file used for setting the general difficulty level. Try playing with its parameters if you are not satisfied with the default figures.

4 - In stock game magnetic torpedoes were bugged. If memory serves, they only worked with imported .dat units. A patch by the same TDW fixed them, meaning that now GR2 units can trigger magnetic detonators (though early in campaign they will often fail due to dud settings in sim file). If I am not mistaken, a side effect of this patch is that now magnetic torpedoes won't work on .dat units.

5 - Air torpedoes are definitely a thing in SH5. I myself experimented with them in the past. As noted by kapuhy, their setting is a bit problematic though. From my experience, one of the main problems is they going backwards once dropped. I am sure there is a fix for this but it has been a long time since I last dealt with the issue, so I wont be able to give you the details of this fix. Equipment node naming and position relative to aircraft 3D model might be a factor, but take my statements above with a pinch of salt.

[kapuhy]

If I am not mistaken, a side effect of this patch is that now magnetic torpedoes won't work on .dat units

Wait, what? That would be a huge problem as TWoS introduces so many .dat format ships that such issue would seriously degrade player's capabilities.

Ok I made a quick test with Zinbu freighter shooting 6 magnetic torpedoes at it... Well, only one detonated (and from external camera it might have gone too shallow and touch the ship). Might just have been a case of bad luck but if not, that's a bummer.

[gap]

Wait, what? That would be a huge problem as TWoS introduces so many .dat format ships that such issue would seriously degrade player's capabilities.

Ok I made a quick test with Zinbu freighter shooting 6 magnetic torpedoes at it... Well, only one detonated (and from external camera it might have gone too shallow and touch the ship). Might just have been a case of bad luck but if not, that's a bummer.

Okay, I have performed a quick forum search and after all it seems I was wrong:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1877647&postcount=325

Sorry for having spread misinformation and good hunting with magnetic torpedoes on dat units as well as on GR2 ones :salute:

[kapuhy]

Okay, I have performed a quick forum search and after all it seems I was wrong:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1877647&postcount=325

Sorry for having spread misinformation and good hunting with magnetic torpedoes on dat units as well as on GR2 ones :salute:

Thanks for looking it up, that's a relief :up:

It's also an important information for modders, because if I understand TDW's post correctly it means ship's "sensitivity" to magnetic torpedo depends on how it's collision spheres are set up. At a quick glance, existing TWoS ships vary greatly in this regard:

https://i.imgur.com/mZE9QWf.png

https://i.imgur.com/hEwho0V.png

https://i.imgur.com/WA4hn5k.png

[gap]

Thanks for looking it up, that's a relief :up:

It's also an important information for modders, because if I understand TDW's post correctly it means ship's "sensitivity" to magnetic torpedo depends on how it's collision spheres are set up. At a quick glance, existing TWoS ships vary greatly in this regard:

Yes, in torpedo sim file there is a max magnetic detonation range parameter, but according to the post by TDW, the density and dimensions of collision spheres below ship keels are also an important factor. This is good, because I suppose that the actual magnetic detonation range varied depending on ship mass and even on building material (wooden hulled boats shouldn't trigger any magnetic detonation); by making spheres to stick more or less from each ship's bottom, we can simulate this.
Is there any information available on German pistol's average magnetic influence ranges?

[Muckenberg]

Good day
if I understand the question correctly, you are interested in how far from the hull of the ship the magnetic detonator should have initiated the detonation of the torpedo?
I'll look at the materials I have available.

[Aktungbby]

Thanks for looking it up, that's a relief :up:

It's also an important information for modders, because if I understand TDW's post correctly it means ship's "sensitivity" to magnetic torpedo depends on how it's collision spheres are set up. At a quick glance, existing TWoS ships vary greatly in this regard:

https://i.imgur.com/mZE9QWf.png

https://i.imgur.com/hEwho0V.png

https://i.imgur.com/WA4hn5k.pnggreat informative post....errrrr: & I'm awfully partial to that magnetic color,:yeah::arrgh!::salute:

[gap]

Good day
if I understand the question correctly, you are interested in how far from the hull of the ship the magnetic detonator should have initiated the detonation of the torpedo?
I'll look at the materials I have available.

Yes, exactly.

An interesting essay that might contain some answers:
https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1599&context=etd

great informative post....errrrr: & I'm awfully partial to that magnetic color,:yeah::arrgh!::salute:

:rotfl2:
If you ask me, more radioactive than magnetic, but Yoda likes it...

[Rosomaha]

Wow, this topic with questions did not go into oblivion. This is progress and good. :salute:

Hi, everyone, and welcome back.

:hmmm: I understood you correctly: the mechanics of the torpedoes remained the same as in the original game with the same shortcomings, but TDW made a solution to the issue with “magnets " by changing the Spheres and Boxes, namely, taking their geometric boundaries outside the 3D models in the files of the destruction zones in individual ships-units?

[gap]

:hmmm: I understood you correctly: the mechanics of the torpedoes remained the same as in the original game with the same shortcomings, but TDW made a solution to the issue with “magnets " by changing the Spheres and Boxes, namely, taking their geometric boundaries outside the 3D models in the files of the destruction zones in individual ships-units?

No, if memory serves, fixing the issue required an hardcoded patch, but the patch alone is not enough: some ships require their collision spheres near the keel to be adjusted for them to be subject to magnetic detonations...

[Rosomaha]

...

:hmmm: I.e. TDW still changed some "codes” to solve the problem, but for some ships it was necessary for some reason to additionally change the ZON? Was anything known about the reason?
----------------------------------------------------
From the AI-boat tests, if anyone is interested:
Test mission in the open ocean. To the torpedoes for myself, I tied the axes-markers for better visibility when testing. Tested as usual on the game without mods.

In the close area:
AI-boats U-Class (on a surface, Allies)
Merchant Ship (Axis)
Cruiser (Axis)

The submarine immediately sank when the Cruiser approached without raising the periscopes. She then changed course to distance of him.

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2021/03/13f7cd788213dc6a9d82298a12e574c3.jpg

I, without surfacing, began to pursue her, keeping at a distance. After some time, I caught up with her from the stern, the AI-boat seemed to notice my presence, turned, and settled in parallel, raising the periscope. I understand that it was just a combination of certain scripts that worked, but from the outside it looked natural, as if she was watching me and trying to identify my Sub.)

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2021/03/517e5e8f3c5e5dc7385acb81fd06e611.png

Several times she twisted in my direction, getting closer, I even thought that she wanted to try to go to battering ram, but when I, too, turned to meet her - she dodged in the other direction and began to leave me.

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2021/03/dd6654384d479da2a85c66d4e654b510.jpg

The next time the boat tried to just get away from me. At some point, she surfaced. Me too, chasing her from a distance. The AI boat didn’t react to me for a while, but then it made a U-turn for 180 and. Yes, I waited for what I wanted! She fired a round of torpedoes in my direction.

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2021/03/f5dcb10ecb418c10c0a8ea1c015abf38.jpg

Of 8 torpedoes. It's strange that there are so many, because she has 4 torpedo tubes. Most likely, the number increased artificially for the game, due to an attempt to increase the probability of hitting. I deliberately did not maneuver in any way to assess the accuracy of the AI attack. 2 out of 8 torpedoes were out of order, having a premature detonation. And 2 torpedoes went astern, it was close enough. The rest went further aft. Perhaps if I started maneuvers, I would have lost speed and just might have stumbled upon a torpedo pack.

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2021/03/e4455167894a791998b1317d46ef7ee9.png

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2021/03/1489b51490f3c02c1ed70b5036fe7723.jpg

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2021/03/3fbb442df48923a928ac7a80289d6fde.jpg

The surfaced boat never attacked me with a deck gun.

In general, I liked the behavior of the AI-boats. This is not like the usual and habitual actions of other units. Their obvious characteristic is that they act with caution. And this is a very appropriate and useful feature for submarines. They periodically dive and emerge. Unique implementation of AI-submarines and the first such successful one among the entire Parts of SilentHunter... It would also be good if they fired a cannon:arrgh!:

[gap]

:hmmm: I.e. TDW still changed some "codes” to solve the problem, but for some ships it was necessary for some reason to additionally change the ZON? Was anything known about the reason?

Exactly. The reason was explained by the same TDW in this post:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1877647&postcount=325

In short: magnetic detonation requires collision spheres to protrude from ship's 3D profile, but some of them don't meet this requirement. Check kapuhy's post below for a visula example of that.


From the AI-boat tests, if anyone is interested:
Test mission in the open ocean. To the torpedoes for myself, I tied the axes-markers for better visibility when testing. Tested as usual on the game without mods.

I enjoyed this report and I am glad to learn that at least something is working in the dumbed down submarine AI.

AI submarine units not using their guns when surfaced is a known problem. Going by TDW's assertions, this is not fixable but who knows? Maybe one day we will dioscover something... As far as you know, do SHIII/SHIV submarines have the same problem?

[Jeff-Groves]

SH3/4 AI Subs on the surface are using a Ship's AI. Not a Submarine AI controller as I believe there is no good Submarine AI for those versions.

I think if you try to use a stock Player Sub as an AI Sub they just work on the surface and don't do anything except follow way points?

Place one under water and they just float to the surface if I recall correctly.
:hmmm:

[Rosomaha]

I enjoyed this report and I am glad to learn that at least something is working in the dumbed down submarine AI.


gap, what the hell? Is it because I called the SHV AI of Subchasers stupid? :har:
This is not news I think. This was noted in the reviews since the release of the game. Tell me where I'm wrong. Unfortunately, the release SHV came out unfinished, it can be considered interrupted at the production stage, the product, it is not surprising that many things do not work well or do not work at all. You've been in the SH5 theme longer than I have, and you probably know all this even better. I hope a lot of things have been fixed in the mods, I haven't even tried a lot yet. I'm scolding something in SH5 and at the same time admire the beautiful Environment, I see a more promising system of fx-effects that was not used in full force, etc...

I haven't returned to the SHIII/SHIV files in a long time. If I remember correctly, the submarines of the former SH Parts do not have problems with small arms, they do not differ in behavior from the rest of the fleet, since they are a regular AI-ship in configuration. Firing torpedoes is simulated by defrauding firing from dummy-guns, through the flash particle generators generate torpedoes or something like that. Only in SHV there has a working cmdr_AISubmarine controller.

[Jeff-Groves]

Only in SHV there has a working cmdr_AISubmarine controller.
Correct. And it can be told to FireCannon.
If the basic controller for FireCannon is broken?
That is hard coded and don't know how that can be fixed.

[gap]

SH3/4 AI Subs on the surface are using a Ship's AI. Not a Submarine AI controller as I believe there is no good Submarine AI for those versions.

I think if you try to use a stock Player Sub as an AI Sub they just work on the surface and don't do anything except follow way points?

Place one under water and they just float to the surface if I recall correctly.
:hmmm:

gap, what the hell? Is it because I called the SHV AI of Subchasers stupid? :har:
This is not news I think. This was noted in the reviews since the release of the game. Tell me where I'm wrong. Unfortunately, the release SHV came out unfinished, it can be considered interrupted at the production stage, the product, it is not surprising that many things do not work well or do not work at all. You've been in the SH5 theme longer than I have, and you probably know all this even better. I hope a lot of things have been fixed in the mods, I haven't even tried a lot yet. I'm scolding something in SH5 and at the same time admire the beautiful Environment, I see a more promising system of fx-effects that was not used in full force, etc...

I haven't returned to the SHIII/SHIV files in a long time. If I remember correctly, the submarines of the former SH Parts do not have problems with small arms, they do not differ in behavior from the rest of the fleet, since they are a regular AI-ship in configuration. Firing torpedoes is simulated by defrauding firing from dummy-guns, through the flash particle generators generate torpedoes or something like that. Only in SHV there has a working cmdr_AISubmarine controller.

Thank you for your feedback guys.

If I have not misunderstood you in previous chapters of the SH saga AI submarines are actually ships in disguise. As that, they have no problems using their guns, but they don't use torpedoes nor they submerge.

I hoped we could have looked into them for answers to SH5 submarine AI limits, but that' obviously not the case :doh:

[Jeff-Groves]

The AI in Player Subs for SH3 uses cmdr_AIMerchant.
Scanning every file in SH3 tells me ONLY the Submarine files make that call!
So there is no AIMerchant controller!
Now AIFight is in the SHSim.act file.
Figure it out from there!

SH4 does it differently!
It has an AIFight controller linked to the Subs.
OM failed to see this on that Mod.

SH5 is kind of like SH4 with the same AI controllers with the added scripting abilities.