Who do you think you are fooling?

[Jonny-Dog]

You have taken our money.

If you work in stead of driving your $$$ car being rich playboy.


We have given you our money, you are now millionaires. Start working!!!!!!

[Onkel Neal]

Hey, when did you start working for the NSA, Jonny-Dog? :O:

[Jonny-Dog]

Edit:
I have removed my post as I see it was inappropriate.

Jonny-Dog

[Onkel Neal]

Jonny,

I can understand your frustration but I don't think it's appropriate or professional to slur the devs. Not only are you a well-known streamer, you have a good reputation here. Please keep in mind, this is the Subsim forum, and we like to keep a civil tone in our discussions. Criticism is welcome if accompanied with tact.

Getting this simulation to completion was always going to be an uphill battle because it's hard as hell to do with one programmer and one artist. We originally thought the schedule to early access would be a year, it turned out to be nearly three. But, let me stress two things: the work got done -- no one threw up their hands and quit; and it was pretty darn good work.

As for the $$, the devs have not invited me to any of their parties on the French Riviera, maybe cause I'm not cool enough, but probably because they are not goofing off, it's just hard work, building a really good sim on your first project as a developer.

Now we're working toward the full release, it may take another year, or three, we'll see. You should consider this, they have hired an additional 3D modeler (Koji) full time and they are planning to add another programmer in Jan, full time. This should help the pace.

Have a good Thanksgiving, Jonny.
Neal

[wangtze]

Can somebody explain why the dev's stoped working on the Scapa Flow mission (where they worked on for more than 6 month) to work now on a new water asset?

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, the work on Scapa Flow (and the campaign) depends on the map coordinate system and height map system and enemy AI. To get the game in playable shape, time spent on the AI was limited to making it work well in mid-ocean environments. The game AI doesn't know about land yet.

To make land-based missions, work on the map system was begun but the devs discovered the game would need the newest version of Unity to work or they would have to do the work twice.

Also, to speed up the development process to get the game to early access and therefore financially self-sufficient, we bought an off-the-shelf water asset. This asset was good enough for the game to work properly but it had been deprecated so eventually, to keep the Unity game engine current, we had to make our own water element. As you can imagine, the water element is pretty crucial in a submarine game. Every object has to be accounted for on the z-axis, so changing the water element is a major chunk of work. So, create and tune the water asset had to get done first.

Last year about this time, we went through the same process on the network code. The initial version worked, but Oscar learned ways to make it better, more responsive and less prone to drops (a bad thing in MP games). So, even though it's the least glamorous part of the game, the network code upgrade costs a couple of months time.

So, the roadmap was restructured earlier this year to get the core components of the game sorted.

[wangtze]

Thanks Neal for the information. Well, am done with this game, unfortunately I can't refund the game at Steam due to too much hours played. I have asked the same question on steam and one of the dev's treated me like **** and banned me from steam forum. A total unprofessional behavior from my point of view.



Honestly on my opinion this isn't a good development plan and it will not players stay tuned and/or win new players to the game....


Just my two cents...

[ceh]

Honestly on my opinion this isn't a good development

As a software developer I can tell you that plans are constantly subject to change. As Uncle Neal explained, things happened that influenced the order of operations. Normal stuff. Actually in such a situation, it's MUCH better to change the plans than to rush, or do the same job twice. Yes, it incurs delays, and that's for the better, actually.

Patience is a virtue that should be more than familiar to sub lovers, so I'm a bit confused at the rant here. Now, if someone is going to act as an entitled brat, that's their prerogative. Neal was more than understanding in conversing with whatshisface, and I salute him for that.

Keep up the good work gents, we'll be here to welcome all the good stuff whenever it comes.
:Kaleun_Cheers:

[wangtze]

As a software developer I can tell you that plans are constantly subject to change. As Uncle Neal explained, things happened that influenced the order of operations. Normal stuff. Actually in such a situation, it's MUCH better to change the plans than to rush, or do the same job twice. Yes, it incurs delays, and that's for the better, actually.

Patience is a virtue that should be more than familiar to sub lovers, so I'm a bit confused at the rant here. Now, if someone is going to act as an entitled brat, that's their prerogative. Neal was more than understanding in conversing with whatshisface, and I salute him for that.

Keep up the good work gents, we'll be here to welcome all the good stuff whenever it comes.
:Kaleun_Cheers:


Oh I know that, i worked for a while in IT sector and was part of software development, so I haven't a problem with changing plans etc. But to say we stop it and release a mission editor and don't explain why to step back and work on basics issn't good.


Also banning people without any warning cause they critism a dev decision or asking for explaination is a very unprofessinal behavior. Again without any warning!



And btw there are many requests by new players to add the TDC solution on the map, which will be always denied by dev's with the words (simple speaking) "This is a hardcore Sim go and learn this stuff by yourself in the internet"...sorry but you can't tread people like this.


BTW the EA release was in March 2019 and we are in November 2020 now.



And yes things can happen and schedules and plans can be changed but you have to communicate this to the community in a transparent way and I don't see this happen on Steam. Maybe they do it on discord or here on subsim fine but many players bought the game on steam and the steam forum is first place to get informations.


A weekly update is fine, but just always saying we work currently on this ....we work now on that isn't enough thats looks like copy and paste the same stuff over and over again....


This is all not new and was discussed and claimed very often

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks Neal for the information. Well, am done with this game, unfortunately I can't refund the game at Steam due to too much hours played. I have asked the same question on steam and one of the dev's treated me like **** and banned me from steam forum. A total unprofessional behavior from my point of view.



Honestly on my opinion this isn't a good development plan and it will not players stay tuned and/or win new players to the game....


Just my two cents...

Yes, that was me.

Can somebody explain why the dev's stoped working on the Scapa Flow mission (where they worked on for more than 6 month) to work now on a new water asset?

You see what a difference it makes when you post with a little tact, as you did here? You get a civil answer. You are the only person banned in the Steam forum since the game came out.

If this is a good development plan or not, that's certainly a matter of opinion. The devs, who actually know what's under the hood, feel this is the best and most efficient plan. We have explained this in several Q&A sessions on Discord, and I'm sure here.

And since you own the game, there's no reason you cannot put it aside for a year and come back and enjoy it with the updates. You would be welcome to do so.

[Onkel Neal]

Also banning people without any warning cause they critism a dev decision or asking for explaination is a very unprofessinal behavior. Again without any warning!

I handle things differently on Steam forums, I don't commit as much of my time and energy addressing rude posts there as I do here.

[wangtze]

Yes, that was me.



You see what a difference it makes when you post with a little tact, as you did here? You get a civil answer. You are the only person banned in the Steam forum since the game came out.

If this is a good development plan or not, that's certainly a matter of opinion. The devs, who actually know what's under the hood, feel this is the best and most efficient plan. We have explained this in several Q&A sessions on Discord, and I'm sure here.

And since you own the game, there's no reason you cannot put it aside for a year and come back and enjoy it with the updates. You would be welcome to do so.


Jesus, :o

[ceh]

And btw there are many requests by new players to add the TDC solution on the map, which will be always denied by dev's with the words (simple speaking) "This is a hardcore Sim go and learn this stuff by yourself in the internet"...sorry but you can't tread people like this.

I respectfully disagree.

I'm 40 odd years old, and have been gaming since mid 80s. I have seen many games watered down because publishers/developers pampered the players, or went for the "largest common denominator" approach.

I've touched on some of the points of why this is bad in a discussion about third person views, if you are interested you can probably find that in my post history.

The developers are well within their rights to keep to their idea of how the game should work. I, for one, am grateful for the hardcore sim approach.
If you are so adamant about the feature you want, maybe this is not a game for you. And that's OK.

[stellaferox]

Yes, the work on Scapa Flow (and the campaign) depends on the map coordinate system and height map system and enemy AI. To get the game in playable shape, time spent on the AI was limited to making it work well in mid-ocean environments. The game AI doesn't know about land yet.

To make land-based missions, work on the map system was begun but the devs discovered the game would need the newest version of Unity to work or they would have to do the work twice.

Also, to speed up the development process to get the game to early access and therefore financially self-sufficient, we bought an off-the-shelf water asset. This asset was good enough for the game to work properly but it had been deprecated so eventually, to keep the Unity game engine current, we had to make our own water element. As you can imagine, the water element is pretty crucial in a submarine game. Every object has to be accounted for on the z-axis, so changing the water element is a major chunk of work. So, create and tune the water asset had to get done first.

Last year about this time, we went through the same process on the network code. The initial version worked, but Oscar learned ways to make it better, more responsive and less prone to drops (a bad thing in MP games). So, even though it's the least glamorous part of the game, the network code upgrade costs a couple of months time.

So, the roadmap was restructured earlier this year to get the core components of the game sorted.

Neal, if only this info would reach us regularly instead of "working on the water, coming soon..." every week, I would be much more confident in the end result. I know communication isn't the core business of technicians but it would certainly help to be more open. Everyone who love subsims know that it takes time, especially for a two-man team. Just be transparant about it.

[Onkel Neal]

I understand, thank you for the feedback. As I said, we have had several open mic Q&A sessions, plus I've tried to keep the public and player-base updated.

I've posted the original roadmap with a summary of features added below. Why did anything change? The answer is always: The devs found this the most efficient use of their time; to avoid duplicating work or doing work that would be rendered moot with future work; and to allow the best use of resources (work with latest versions of Unity, completing features that future features will need, etc.).

So, when the weekly update does not satisfy, just read the paragraph above. That's the answer.

Update Nov 2020

Original Roadmap
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1338&pictureid=11621

Actual features added during post-EA release. During the ongoing development, the team found it more time-efficient
to complete some features out of sequence from the original roadmap.
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1338&pictureid=11620

Current roadmap: as determined by the most time-efficient path.
https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/490920/extras/steam_new_roadmap_1.jpg?t=1598454991

[Fanders]

I don't understand the pace-panic over the game developement. I bought the game in an early state, and have been able to follow the developement from HMS Marulken to the latest version. This game is unique in its way to offer coop multiplayer, onboard in the same tube.

Once and awhile some patch comes up with new content, and I am thrilled every time! I don't care if it takes 6 months, or whatever longer. I have played dozents of early access games, and I know this is high quality material, and therefore well worth the wait.

Neal, would you please tell the dev guys that there is a group of fans stationed in Östergötland, Sweden. One of them is a technic high school teacher and takes every opportunity to teach the students about submarines. In doing so, he always recommend Wolfpack, as the obvious choice of digital educational platform. He may have an own wolfpack to command some day :up:

Keep up the good work! :salute:

[Onkel Neal]

Wow, that's so nice of you, thanks. I will make sure the devs hear about this.

[Jonny-Dog]

First of all, I apologize for my rudenes in previous posts. It happens when I have to much to drink. Not an excuse, but something I have to work with. :Kaleun_Cheers:

Now, the issues I have with the development...
The progress made since the release, is in my opinion minimal. Except from a few enhances/changes (bots being the biggest change), we have essentially the same game as when it was released.

Now, since I'm not a coder, I have no idea how much time it takes for one or two men.
But seeing the progress made by U-Boat Simulator, where the team until recently also consisted of one man, I have to wonder. The water dynamics/effects was coded in a few weeks, if I'm not mistaken.

What I would like to know is how many hours do Oscar/Einar put down every week in development? Is this their full time job or just a side project?

I mean, you can work 2-3 hours on the project every week and still justify the weekly friday update: "This week we have been working on the water..." Or is this their full time job, and really working every day on the project?

Regards,
Jonny-Dog

[Sean C]

First of all, I apologize for my rudenes in previous posts. It happens when I have to much to drink. Not an excuse, but something I have to work with.


Hey, don't feel too bad. I do that too. The important thing is you recognize it.


Cheers!


Regards! ;)

[wangtze]

Dear Neal,


I will repeat my impression which I made on steam and it was the reason to ban me from Steam:


For me it's looks like a hobby project from 2 guys.




No need to ban me from this site, I already requested by mail to delete my user profile here, so please be so kind to do it now (and also all of my trolling posts so that nobody can see the developmet of the story).


So to speed up the deleting of my profile, please just do it, I would do it by myself but it seems thats not possible on this forum.


P.S.: Your so called "roadmap" isn't a roadmap, it's just a list of maybe upcoming features. A roadmap includes a estimated timeframe.

[Onkel Neal]

So to speed up the deleting of my profile, please just do it



As you wish.

[ceh]

Now, the issues I have with the development...
The progress made since the release, is in my opinion minimal. Except from a few enhances/changes (bots being the biggest change), we have essentially the same game as when it was released.


This is the bane of developer work. So, so much work that's "under the hood" (or below the bilge?) never gets appreciation (I'm lacking a better word now, not native, sorry - I don't mean that we as users need to praise that work or smth) that we (developers) often get criticized by end users for "not showing progress".

Please trust me when I say that such work is imperative, and it shows the benefits in the long run. Shortening (yes!) overall time to completion, improving stability etc. Look up "technical debt in software development" if you are interested, it might offer a new perspective.

It is beautiful that Neal seems to understand that, and lets the developers plot the course. From my professional experience as a developer, I can say that it's a blessing. Quite a few projects that I worked on suffered from the opposite. Rushing to release something, regardless of the state of it, never benefited the end user.

I do understand your concerns, one of which I'm not in the position to address (hours worked), but all I (we?) can do is have faith. If, in the end, it turns out I was naive, eh... won't be the first time. Nevertheless, I'm willing to try to be positive :)

Also, bear this in mind: we all paid 30€ or so for the game. How many of us? Not hundreds of us I think (btw, is that info publicly available @Onkel Neal?). I don't believe that the income generated from sales is enough to fund development that spans this much time. So, someone ;) is in the red, in order for us to enjoy this game. We should appreciate that.

[rohling]

So far the game developers made everything thought out well. I can see the new Ocean interaction coming together nicely. It is maybe one of the tougher nuts to crack to get it look right. In the long run there is no need to complain, better do a great game then a rushed one full of buggy content and glitches.

[Xaron]

This is the bane of developer work. So, so much work that's "under the hood" (or below the bilge?) never gets appreciation (I'm lacking a better word now, not native, sorry - I don't mean that we as users need to praise that work or smth) that we (developers) often get criticized by end users for "not showing progress".



Please trust me when I say that such work is imperative, and it shows the benefits in the long run. Shortening (yes!) overall time to completion, improving stability etc. Look up "technical debt in software development" if you are interested, it might offer a new perspective.



Oh that is soo true, thanks for that!.

[Sparkcat46]

Devs are great! Game is Great! Look forward to the future, just hope they don't stop!

:Kaleun_Cheers:

[THE_MASK]

It takes time to facet a diamond .

[stellaferox]

It takes time to facet a diamond .

At the moment it looks more like the time it takes to create diamond

[THE_MASK]

At the moment it looks more like the time it takes to create diamond

LOL

[kozel1]

I just saw this thread and I was thinking....
At what point is it legitimate to start worrying and asking questions?


Good question! Star Citizen has been in development for 10 years. Do you think that's long? Short? Acceptable?

I also thought you were done with the questioning after opening numerous Steam discussion threads and the ones here.

Your expectations might differ from others.

Devs just put out a new update last week or a week before, with a roadmap.
They have no obligation to report to you nor anybody else in the public about the financial situation. The fact that they put out a fantastic water update makes me thing that they are fine.

I will let them work. And enjoy the game in a meantime. I spend $60 when I go out to a dinner with the spouse. $35 won't break the bank. But again, that's me.

[Xaron]

By their own words, the work has slowed because the virus means they cannot visit museums to study subs and other ships
Did they really say that? I mean having kids at home for home schooling for instance is quite some distracting stuff. ;) So that covid lockdown can have quite some negative impact on plans.


Plus I know that things take a while to develop. Half a year passes by so quickly and looking back it might look like there is no progress. Even though it might look like that from an external point of view, quite a lot of internal stuff might have been cleared.



Why are they hiring student programmers out of college if they have the money to hire a real full-time programmer?
Well it's quite tricky to hire a seasoned programmer full time currently. Especially with some time limited contract. And students could be even more enthusiastic. Maybe that's just the point here.