Video emerges of Minneapolis police killing a citizen - - Riots [Archive]

vienna

05-28-20, 07:16 AM

Saw the above video on TV; the local Los Angeles stations have been showing other videos of the same incident taken by surveillance and security cameras in the area; from what I've seen, and heard, in those videos, those officers were way, way out of line and control...

BTW, there have been no riots over the killing here in LA like the ones in Minneapolis; the worst here was a brief blocking of a main freeway through the downtown area by about a hundred or so people and the worse damage was broken windows on a Highway Patrol cruiser that arrived at the scene; some of the protesters, a much smaller group, later showed up at the LAPD headquarters building and, again, briefly blocked part of the street in front of the HQ; LAPD broke up the demonstration with very little problem; in both cases, any possible impact of the demonstrations was muted due to the lockdown in place; its hard to really make a point of blocking a freeway or street when there is almost no traffic to speak of...

I was here in 1992 when the riots broke out then and our area was one of the hardest hit; believe me, what happened last night wasn't by any stretch of the term a riot; I've seen worse violence at a rock concert...

<O>

Platapus

05-28-20, 08:13 AM

It did seem excessive. The man was handcuffed and laying on the ground. If anything needs to be knelt on, I would think that his legs would be a higher priority

Onkel Neal

05-28-20, 08:47 AM

Good grief, you think a cop with any intelligence at all would know better than to kill someone this way.

Jimbuna

05-28-20, 10:04 AM

Good grief, you think a cop with any intelligence at all would know better than to kill someone this way.

Apparently not :nope:

Rockstar

05-28-20, 11:13 AM

In an essay published in the Wall Street Journal, Radley Balko, author of “Rise of the Warrior Cop” presents chilling and convincing evidence of the blurring of the line between cop and soldier:
Driven by martial rhetoric and the availability of military-style equipment — from bayonets and M-16 rifles to armored personnel carriers — American police forces have often adopted a mind-set previously reserved for the battlefield. The war on drugs and, more recently, post-9/11 antiterrorism efforts have created a new figure on the U.S. scene: the warrior cop — armed to the teeth, ready to deal harshly with targeted wrongdoers, and a growing threat to familiar American liberties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyrCiq_pQuo

Catfish

05-28-20, 11:21 AM

^ yes and how convenient the cops wear masks, so no one can be accused later, win-win. For them.

Police uses water, pepper spray and CS gas, not nice, but.. looks more like riot control than a normal police mission.

mapuc

05-28-20, 11:39 AM

Platapus

05-28-20, 12:35 PM

I would like to see a reversal of the militarization of our police forces.

Commander Wallace

05-28-20, 12:44 PM

An outsider should not point fingers at another countries law and enforcement.

When it comes to give ideas then I think it may be ok.

The idea I give is from Sweden.

1. Since many, many years back and since some incident an upcoming police cadet have to go through a psychological test of some sort.
(from the Swedish news around 10 years after this had been implement, showed that 2-3 out of 20 interested have been classified as not suitable for the job)

2. Today a Swedish police has a number on his shirt/jacket.
In case a police should be to harsh and a civilian want to complain.
S/He can then use this number and the Internal affairs know who's the police office behind the mask.(The civilians don't)

Markus

I'm not so sure on this Markus. Your being from a country other than the U.S may give you a unique perspective and allow you to do a comparison and contrast with law enforcement in your own country.

Derek Chauvin, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao and J. Alexander Kueng were fired while Chauvin was the one identified who for lack of a better word, executed an unarmed and restrained, George Floyd.

Chauvin has an extensive record of complaints against him in his role of a police officer. Chauvin was never disciplined which is indicative of the culture of the police department in Minneapolis. The Internal Affairs apparently never acted on the complaints inside it's own department or considered the complaints to have any merit.

It's been said that George Floyd may have tried to pass a counterfeit $ 20 dollar bill. This may be true but did Floyd print it ? Did Floyd unknowingly pass on a bill that he himself got and didn't know was counterfeit or is that a cover story that the Minneapolis Police used to cover their bases. If there was probable cause, then the proper remedial action would be to arrest and charge Floyd and allow Floyd his day in court to stand trial. The officers acted as judge, jury and executioner.

The official report is that Floyd died of a " medical condition ". I never heard of a videotaped execution called a " medical condition." I would say be being force-ably asphyxiated as shown in the video constitutes first degree murder and charges are warranted.

The lack of compassion shown by Chauvin and the time it took for him to die shows premeditation. This makes the job by decent law enforcement officers more difficult as there is a loss of trust. Further, This horrible incident subjects honest and decent Law enforcement officers to retaliation.

I just wonder how we manufacture people who have so little regard for life as to get a thrill from killing another person.

^ You hit the nail on the head, Platapus.

mapuc

05-28-20, 02:21 PM

I'm not so sure on this Markus. Your being from a country other than the U.S may give you a unique perspective and allow you to do a comparison and contrast with law enforcement in your own country.

Derek Chauvin, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao and J. Alexander Kueng were fired while Chauvin was the one identified who for lack of a better word, executed an unarmed and restrained, George Floyd.

Chauvin has an extensive record of complaints against him in his role of a police officer. Chauvin was never disciplined which is indicative of the culture of the police department in Minneapolis. The Internal Affairs apparently never acted on the complaints inside it's own department or considered the complaints without merit.

It's been said that George Floyd may have tried to pass a counterfeit $ 20 dollar bill. This may be true but did Floyd print it ? Did Floyd unknowingly pass on a bill that he himself got and didn't know was counterfeit or is that a cover story that the Minneapolis Police used to cover their bases. If Floyd was guilty, then the proper remedial action would be to arrest and charge Floyd and allow Floyd his day in court to stand trial. The officers acted as judge, jury and executioner.

The official report is that Floyd died of a " medical condition ". I never heard of a videotaped execution called a " medical condition." I would say be being force-ably asphyxiated as shown in the video constitutes first degree murder and charges are warranted.

The lack of compassion shown by Chauvin and the time it took for him to die shows premeditation. This makes the job by decent law enforcement officers more difficult as there is a loss of trust. Further, This horrible incident subjects honest and decent Law enforcement officers to retaliation.

I just wonder how we manufacture people who have so little regard for life as to get a thrill from killing another person.

^ You hit the nail on the head, Platapus.

A thought based on your reply.

If an American who wants to be a police officer had to go through some kind of psychological test. Would a person like Derek Chauvin passed this test ?

Because if you could remove those people before they take seat in the Police academy, it would be good thing.

As said in this Swedish news program some years ago.

From memory
Many want to be a police officer, but not everyone have the psychology to be a police officer.

Markus

Commander Wallace

05-28-20, 04:08 PM

A thought based on your reply.

If an American who wants to be a police officer had to go through some kind of psychological test. Would a person like Derek Chauvin passed this test ?

Because if you could remove those people before they take seat in the Police academy, it would be good thing.

As said in this Swedish news program some years ago.

From memory
Many want to be a police officer, but not everyone have the psychology to be a police officer.

Markus

I'm really not sure Markus. From what I have heard, the lack of candidates has forced some police agencies I know of to lower the standards considerably to police cadets / recruits.

I remember going to college and one of my classmates aspired to be a police officer. As I understand it, he made it and quite frankly, he was dumber than a box of rocks and that's being kind.

There are good police officers, Markus and my comments are not an indictment of police officers, just the horribly bad ones. To Illustrate this point, I saw this video a few years ago and never forgot it. This is being a good law enforcement officer at it's best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49b8EJFqqPQ

mapuc

05-28-20, 04:36 PM

^Same here. 99-99.99 % is doing a fantastic job and I salute every police in the world.

Markus

Platapus

05-29-20, 06:03 AM

^Same here. 99-99.99 % is doing a fantastic job and I salute every police in the world.

Markus

I agree. However, when good cops cover for bad cops, they are no longer good cops

Col7777

05-29-20, 08:05 AM

I just watched the video, I've not seen the others that onlookers took.

I read the guy tried to pass a counterfeit $20 bill, if he knew it or not it's not like he was brandishing a gun or threatening anyone, in other word not a violent crime.
4 cops, one had him pinned down and handcuffed, I read there was one cop holding his legs yet I couldn't see that on this video, so if that is true he was well held down and not struggling.

I couldn't understand why they were holding him down for so long instead of putting him in the police car.

I once saw a police video where they stopped a guy and were holding him up at gun point, the guy had his arms raised.
One cop was yelling at him to lie down, as he went to move the other cop was also yelling at him not to move, in a way it was funny, neither of the cops were listening to what the other was yelling and the guy was nearly shot because of it.

Col.

vienna

05-29-20, 09:04 AM

This TV news report has a snippet from a surveillance/security camera across the street from the scene where George Floyd died; at about :28 into the report, Floyd is shown being walked by two police officers across the street to a police vehicle as they get to the car, it appears Floyd trips or slips on the edge of the sidewalk next to the vehicle; up to that point, Floyd is not seen giving any resistance to the officers as they usher him to the vehicle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWzkgKPZWcw

Note that Floyd falls on the sidewalk side of the vehicle, but the death scene is on the opposite side of the vehicle; it would be interesting to see what happened during the move to the other side of the cruiser. Regardless of what transpired during those moments moving from one side of the vehicle to the other, there is no excuse for the actions of four officers leading a single non-resistant person to a car to use force way out of scale to not only the nature of the alleged crime Floyd was being accused of but, also, towards a compliant suspect. The knee to the neck is reminiscent of the choke/sleeper holds police officers used to use until they were banned in almost all police jurisdictions; the knee to the neck has the same potentially lethal effects of the banned holds: constriction of breathing airways, blockage of major arteries in the neck, the preventing of blood flow to the brain. There are other newly posted videos on YT of the incident, including some police body cam footage, and all, so far, shows a rather routine, non-threatening sort of encounter; officers seem to be almost casual about the whole encounter up until Floyd falls off the curb of the sidewalk. There were two other persons in Floyd's car at the time of his arrest and even they are not resisting and are shown as being rather casual about the situation...

I support the police departments, but I am not blind to the fact there are those who wear the badge who shouldn't. Even among the ranks of the officers, there is a disdain for the rouge or corrupt officers who make it all the more difficult for the vast majority of good officers to do their jobs and gain the trust of those they serve. There is a unit in the LAPD called the Metro Squad that had a very less then stellar reputation; they moved from area to area of the city and were tasked with 'cleaning up' crime rises as they occurred; their tactics, ethics, and morals were the subject of much criticism both inside and outside the force; for decades patrol officers dreaded the appearance of Metro in their areas because Metro would swoop in, indulge in their heavy handed brand of "justice" and leave, leaving the patrol officers to have to deal with the negative fallout from Metros actions. Metro, now, is a whole different team; the ineffectual Police Chief at the time of the 1992 riots was given the boot and subsequent chiefs, notably Bill Bratton, who did a through cleansing and reorganization/modernization of the LAPD, have made the force more acceptable to LA citizens; the level of respect shown to the LAPD officers now is remarkable in contrast with the former levels of distrust and fear...

The time is long overdue for police agencies to face the reality that coddling bad officers is a disservice to the fine work done by the larger majority of good officers; the same goes for the police unions: the automatic, knee-jerk, all-in backing a blatantly bad officers serves no purpose other than the harm of the good officers they are supposed to represent...

<O>

Platapus

05-29-20, 12:22 PM

https://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/thisiswhy.jpg

Jimbuna

05-29-20, 01:36 PM

A police officer fired following the death of unarmed black man George Floyd in Minneapolis has been arrested and charged with murder and manslaughter.

Derek Chauvin is one of four police officers who were fired after Mr Floyd's death in custody on Monday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52854025

Rockstar

05-29-20, 02:14 PM

https://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/thisiswhy.jpg

Ya know there could have been a chance at making some voices heard. But the corporate, political and media giants were quick to squash such ideas. The headlines made him out too unpatriotic or something wasn't it?

August

05-29-20, 02:35 PM

Ya know there could have been a chance at making some voices heard. But the corporate, political and media giants were quick to squash such ideas. The headlines made him out too unpatriotic or something wasn't it?

Kaperneck is just as wrong as the cop in my opinion and as they say two wrongs don't make a right.

Rockstar

05-29-20, 03:06 PM

Sure you may not agree with what he did. But thats not the argument. It seems nobody has really spent much time looking at the reason.

mapuc

05-29-20, 03:25 PM

This is my own opinion.

Whatever a person have done, s/he shall be treated with manner, during their arrestment. A police officer is not a judge or a executioner- He is educated to upheld the law and protect citizens
That's how I see it.

Secondly.

About this picture Platapus posted in his comment.

Same picture was shown in the Danish news yesterday, but with a different text, which I didn't manage to read to the end.

What I could read was something like.

- "If you are upset by this(this text was under the police picture..).and not this...(which was under the NFL-picture)"

Markus

Commander Wallace

05-29-20, 07:46 PM

I agree. However, when good cops cover for bad cops, they are no longer good cops

I remember reading this once: Little is required for evil to prevail other than the good to stand by and do nothing. That's pretty much what you already said.:yep:

A police officer fired following the death of unarmed black man George Floyd in Minneapolis has been arrested and charged with murder and manslaughter.

Derek Chauvin is one of four police officers who were fired after Mr Floyd's death in custody on Monday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52854025

Like most, I was expecting charges to be filed at the conclusion of this week. However, I was expecting formal charges against the 4 officers in the video for the role they played in the death of George Floyd. Chauvin was charged with 3rd degree murder and Manslaughter.

Another video has emerged, part of what Vienna posted the video too. It seems to show Derek Chauvin, Thomas Lane, Tou Thao and J. Alexander Kuengdown were holding Floyd down while George Floyd was already down, restrained and hardly a danger to anyone.

If there is any justice, charges will be leveled at the other 3 officers for their involvement in this murder.

Platapus

05-29-20, 08:23 PM

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke (attrib)

Onkel Neal

05-29-20, 09:51 PM

Protesters and anarchists in Atlanta swarm CNN (CNN?).

First video shows people massing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD4ZwoD9ARQ

Second video shows they overwhelmed the police and rioted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYgBWNIPfuQ

I suspect plenty of people enjoy rioting. Now the taxpayers have to pay for new police cars.

August

05-29-20, 10:23 PM

Exacerbated by being cooped up for two months no doubt.

vienna

05-30-20, 03:37 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSm0Nuqomg

<O>

Col7777

05-30-20, 03:52 AM

I watched a few videos of the 'Protesters' I understand the protest but some were there just to cause trouble.

I mean setting fire to shops and smashing cars, what for?

I bet some of those car and shop owners and people who work there agreed with the protesters and were angry too, so why get at them.

Can you imagine one of them going home and asking what's for dinner and the reply was, "Nothing! I went to the shop to buy food but someone set it on fire."

Col.

Jimbuna

05-30-20, 05:41 AM

It is now being reported on the radio that a protestor has been killed.

A 19-year-old man has died after shots were fired into a crowd of people protesting against the death of unarmed black man George Floyd.
https://news.sky.com/story/george-floyd-death-protests-spread-across-us-and-turn-violent-11997198

Catfish

05-30-20, 06:20 AM

"When the looting begins the shooting begins"

"A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right."

:hmmm:

Platapus

05-30-20, 06:22 AM

I suspect plenty of people enjoy rioting. Now the taxpayers have to pay for new police cars.

Just like Europe has people who like to travel to football games just to fight, I am sure we have people here in the US who like to travel to protests to fight/loot

I just don't understand that mindset.

Onkel Neal

05-30-20, 08:49 AM

Yeah, me either, really taints the legitimacy of these protests.

I wish the protesters could organize effectively and
a. sue the city and politicians,
b. legally force through a recall or something to yank a few politicians out of office,
c. create a unstoppable voting block to elect better representatives, people who will bend these police departments to their will,
d. purge the criminal cops, leaving only good cops, with an emphasis on whistleblowing on cops who are corrupt and violent
e. change the cop culture,
f. get rid of the military vehicles and weapons; make them drive Priuses

The police are out of control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=fvvvgJHtdzo&feature=emb_logo

mapuc

05-30-20, 12:27 PM

I do understand why people protest against those bad cops and the police force who seems unable to take of this.

BUT I do NOT have any understanding to those protester who attack stores and set fire to buildings.

Markus

Jimbuna

05-30-20, 02:35 PM

I think the riots have gone way beyond the original problem.

mapuc

05-30-20, 02:47 PM

I think the riots have gone way beyond the original problem.

You're right, it's not a demonstration anymore, it's a riot.

Markus

Commander Wallace

05-30-20, 03:52 PM

I think the riots have gone way beyond the original problem.

The riots are a manifestation of the original protests being hijacked by thugs and criminals in pursuit of their own agendas. The burning and looting of stores have nothing to do with with the murder of George Floyd. The criminals are using the Floyd killing to justify their looting and other criminal activities and don't care about the real issues. What's worse are a number of these businesses are minority, black owned businesses and are trying to recover from the covid-19 shutdowns.

To Illustrate the racist culture of the Minneapolis Police Department,
Lt. Bob Kroll, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis has allegedly been making racist statements and wore a " White Power " Patch. If Kroll had any brains at all, he would keep his mouth shut and do everything in his power not to inflame an already bad situation. All Kroll has done is show his true colors which may be useful in a complete overhaul of the police department and unions there.

This clearly demonstrates the culture in the police department and union and raises questions regarding the handling of numerous complaints against Derek Chauvin and the dismissal of those complaints, if they were ever investigated.

https://ww w.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/minneapolis-police-union-president-allegedly-wore-a-white-power-patch-and-made-racist-remarks/ (https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/minneapolis-police-union-president-allegedly-wore-a-white-power-patch-and-made-racist-remarks/)

In a related development, the wife of Derek Chauvin, the police officer charged in the death of George Floyd, has filed for divorce.

Kelli Chauvin has been distraught since the murder of George Floyd.

Quote: “This evening, I spoke with Kellie Chauvin and her family. She is devastated by Mr. Floyd’s death and her utmost sympathy lies with his family, with his loved ones and with everyone who is grieving this tragedy. She has filed for dissolution of her marriage to Derek Chauvin,” reads the statement released by Sekula Law Offices.

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/29/lawyer-wife-of-charged-ex-mpd-officer-derek-chauvin-files-for-divorce/

And, the hits just keep on coming for Chauvin. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Catfish

05-30-20, 04:03 PM

Buddahaid

05-30-20, 05:56 PM

Got to get control over looters and riots alright, but real leadership would try to de-escalate things instead of pouring oil into the fire. Trump (ab)uses twitter to get past any reason and directly stir up things without thinking.
Some years ago a friend of mine from the US (nothing to do with this forum) said there is no racism in the US ("..a thing of the past"). Does not look like it for all. Wearing a "White Power" patch as a police officer :doh: :nope:

@Neal is that video you posted related to Minneapolis? I have no idea what is going on there (video).

It's a big country. It's like saying there's no racism in Europe.

Onkel Neal

05-30-20, 06:07 PM

Got to get control over looters and riots alright, but real leadership would try to de-escalate things instead of pouring oil into the fire. Trump (ab)uses twitter to get past any reason and directly stir up things without thinking.
Some years ago a friend of mine from the US (nothing to do with this forum) said there is no racism in the US ("..a thing of the past"). Does not look like it for all. Wearing a "White Power" patch as a police officer :doh: :nope:

@Neal is that video you posted related to Minneapolis? I have no idea what is going on there (video).

That's in west Texas, sheriff and his gang overreacting to a protest
https://www.newswest9.com/article/news/local/ector-county-sheriffs-office-receives-hundreds-of-threats-following-arrest-of-protestors/513-5fddba7f-497f-423f-8846-007418bd4b11

Catfish

05-30-20, 06:10 PM

It's a big country. It's like saying there's no racism in Europe.
Of course, but my friend said it as if it were the general status quo in the US. He lived in Arizona (not that i believed him).
There is a lot of racism in Europe of course, but here it is often coupled to fear and loathing of foreigners, to nationalism and jingoism, either as a reason or the outcome of such mindset.

@Neal thanks, so another scenario. An exagerrated reaction or so it seems.

Torvald Von Mansee

05-31-20, 03:20 AM

That's in west Texas, sheriff and his gang overreacting to a protest
https://www.newswest9.com/article/news/local/ector-county-sheriffs-office-receives-hundreds-of-threats-following-arrest-of-protestors/513-5fddba7f-497f-423f-8846-007418bd4b11

If I recall correctly, Odessa is the location where an ex cop set up a "sting" proving the local police still used thermal imaging to find marijuana grow rooms after the Supreme Court ruled it Unconstitutional.

Skybird

05-31-20, 03:42 AM

Social dynamite due to a culture of violence and an incrwaing gap between hgaves and have-nots. Already the Romans knew that the latter is dangeorus and should niot go beyond a criticla treshhold.

Gets ignited by racism and a polcie in which racism obviously is an inherent issue. Because such killings happen again and again and again and again. I lost track of how many debates babout police killings we have had in my time in this fiorum, 20 years.

Still, several times forum member sinsisted that Americna societ yknows no racism, sicne it is written on some document. Its absurd, its relaity denial. And because it gets denied (Trump even tries to deflect again and blames lefties), it will be a problem that intensifies with every year passing by.

Its the unsolved inner contradictions of American society. And by battling the symptoms you will only battle the symptoms, not solve the root causes that constantly grow. Sooner or later they will become overwhelming, and the American state will become a failed state. With the massive devaluing of money comes growing prices and growing expropriation of the middle and low class.

Skybird

05-31-20, 04:10 AM

It doe snot happen often that I agree with the opinions voiced in the far-left leaning newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung (SZ), I dislike this one very much, but every once in a while they surprise me.

America is on fire. From Houston to Brooklyn, from Portland to Atlanta, from Los Angeles to Lafayette Park opposite the White House in Washington, where the ministries of the surrounding ministries normally eat their lunches on sunny days, a wave of violence has occurred in recent days and devastation rolled over the US like the country has not seen in half a century.

The unrest was triggered by a murder: Last Monday, white policeman Derek Chauvin killed Black George Floyd while on duty in Minneapolis - a particularly shocking, but unfortunately by no means rare, case of racist police brutality in America. But the protests have long since resolved themselves from this occasion. They have turned into a much larger uprising, a discharge of anger and violence directed against the police in some places but blind to anything that is in the way in others.

After the violent death of African American George Floyd, the United States does not come to rest. US President Trump threatens demonstrators with the "unlimited power" of the US military.

You can think this violence is wrong and senseless and condemn it, even if you think that the anger that feeds it is understandable and justified. America's blacks have every right to be angry. You have every right to take to the streets and shout out this anger. And they have every right to fight against discrimination and harassment by the police. Freedom and justice, Martin Luther King knew very well, do not fall from the sky. You have to fight for it. However, whether this struggle should consist of looting the shops in their own residential area and setting them on fire is another question.

But the anger of the blacks is only part of the anger that has now swept through American society and is gradually eating away at their cohesion. Anger at "the system". Anger at "the elites". Anger at "the politics". Anger at "those up there". Anger at "the media". Or quite simply and fundamentally: anger at "the others", whoever "the others" may be in the given case. Everyone has something or someone to whom they can direct their anger, contempt and hatred.

This anger has been boiling in America for years. It flared up for the first time in 2008, when millions of Americans sank into a financial and economic crisis that was not their fault and for which none of the responsible bankers and politicians were ever held accountable. At the time, it manifested itself politically in the form of the arch-conservative tea party movement, which has meanwhile destroyed the old Republican Party. When Donald Trump ran for election in 2016, he didn't have to rage. He just had to stir it up. He made his political capital out of anger, it was the fuel for his victory. And because he wants to win again in November, he continues to fuel his anger today. This is immoral and extremely dangerous for America. But Trump could not do what he does with such great success if he did not have a large, eager audience - and many willing helpers: the cheering presenters at the right Fox News channel live just as much from Trump's rage as their outraged competitors at the left MSNBC transmitter. And Twitter, which is suddenly doing so with Trump tweets, owes its importance to a large extent to the man in the White House.

The corona pandemic acted like a fire accelerator in this charged atmosphere. Over 100,000 dead and over 40 million unemployed - this is brutal trauma for a society. The pandemic has not only mercilessly exposed all the political, economic and social injustices that the United States has suffered, but has also intensified them. Whoever had the right job before the virus, the right financial advisor, good health insurance and, above all, the right skin color - knows - will probably get through the crisis reasonably well, at least in material terms. Anyone who had to move from paycheck to paycheck with two or three jobs before the virus - and these are not just long ago, but a disproportionate number of blacks and Latinos - are now at risk of falling. The anger about it is greater than the fear of being infected with the virus in the crowd of a demo.

But the anger that is now pervading America's streets is not an exclusive feature of the political left. Right-wing "patriots" have been deployed to parliaments across the country in recent weeks to protest the curfews imposed by the corona pandemic, often heavily armed. It was less violent than the riots of the past few days, but it was by no means less frightening. These people may have different political views and goals than the Antifa protesters rioting in Minneapolis or spraying "**** Trump" on houses in Washington. What unites them is the anger at a "system" that they think is tyrannical and want to smash. But they see their compatriots in the other political camp not as American citizens, but as enemies. Anyone who believes that the riots last week are the unfortunate but unfortunately necessary prelude to a progressive revolution should be disappointed. Rather, they lead to something that resembles a civil war.

Perhaps the situation in Minneapolis and the other hot spots of the protests will calm down in the next few days. The anger will not go away. The fire is far from extinguished.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/proteste-usa-amerika-1.4923221

Torvald Von Mansee

05-31-20, 12:57 PM

Just like Europe has people who like to travel to football games just to fight, I am sure we have people here in the US who like to travel to protests to fight/loot

I just don't understand that mindset.

I have a heavy suspicion that if some magical field went over these people, preventing them from taking drugs/drinking, partying, networking, and having sex w/each other in their off hours, 95% of them wouldn't be there.

mapuc

05-31-20, 05:19 PM

Here are some interesting stuff you can dig into.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1 2FjFCVj4WSdbolVeJUtTlCFuq1Ll_qkFS11H0zNxFpONp2NNEh MvcKkY

And even this

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877?fbclid=IwAR0FFbdxSTVir-AF37gU0rV3rKh5kk4z0A76HQJoPGvSdqkVRNmCsZsBXvs

Markus

Onkel Neal

05-31-20, 09:50 PM

They're protesting in London. Are they protesting American police in the UK?

Metropolitan Police arrested at least 23 protesters in London on Sunday at demonstrations showing solidarity with Americans protesting the death George Floyd. The arrests were for a variety of offenses including breaches to UK coronavirus legislation.

Protesters gathered in central London’s Trafalgar Square at 8 a.m. ET to show support to Americans for the killing of George Floyd, despite UK lockdown rules that prohibit large crowds from gathering together.

In a series of tweets late Sunday, police said the total number of arrests following gatherings in central London today is now 23, all for various offenses. They remain in police custody. Police said the majority of those who attended have now left the area.

"Officers have been engaging and consistently policing all gatherings this weekend, encouraging all to comply with the regulations to keep everyone safe," police said.

More protests are expected in London during the week.

So what happened to the driver of the truck? Did the mob kill him? Throw him over the overpass?
https://www.fox9.com/video/689938

eddie

05-31-20, 10:39 PM

Protestors dragged him out of the truck then beat the crap out of him. He was taken to a hospital then arrested, charges pending. Want to give him the most they can when they do come up with all the charges.

Skybird

06-01-20, 05:02 AM

Like the years of sowing, so is the harvest now.

It is infame to try cleaning this rioting off the table again by focussing on profane formalities like whether this still is protest or is a riot that has disconnected from the original triggering event. Where the underlaying intense energy that fuels both is coming from - that is what it is about.

And the great Führer, what does he do? Spills as much oil into the fire as much as he can, at every opportunity. For him, the fires cannot burn hot enough. They are the fundemant - the only fundament - of his power.

These events are not really surprising. Surpring only is that they had us waiting so long. America more and more rips apart, since many years. These gaps and trenches will never be bridged again. The U in USA can safely be deleted. Racism, social divide of ever growing proportions, brutal polarization done by both political parties but especially and explicitly dirty done by the Tea Party which has hollowed out the Republican party, a culture of violence and a strong fascination for it, existential threats from a financial system out of control, foreign influence fueling internal conflicts, more and more buying power and control power amassed in fewer and fewer hands, war on the middle class, the echoes of 2007/2008 still rolling - it all comes together, some factors lasting for years, some lasting for decades, some lasting for as long as America exists.

There will be Biden or there will be Trump. It does not matter. The basic constellations stay he same. The basic problems remain the same. The inner contradictions of this nation will not go away - they rather will intensify the contrasts.

Skybird

06-01-20, 05:08 AM

I read that some media call Trump a "human flame thrower" (re-translated from German). Thats a fitting description. Hides in the bunker now. What a pitiful thing in a suit he is.

After he got out of his hole again they will need to renovate it, the bad smell will not easily go away again.

Onkel Neal

06-01-20, 07:59 AM

Yeah, America, good thing we released all those convicts from prison cuz Wuhan flu, just in time for the riots, er, protests

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajaqY2vd7fw

Maybe they'll burn the cities to the ground, then they can head for white suburbia.

Kptlt. Neuerburg

06-01-20, 09:14 AM

To protest for change is one thing, to riot and loot and set police cars on fire is something different all together. Rioting and looting is the exact OPPOSITE of protesting and is totally counterproductive, because rather then protesting against police brutality they're giving the police a reason to be brutal. And while this video is three years old it still gives a good look into why nothing has really changed regarding the police in six years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaD84DTGULo

Skybird

06-01-20, 09:15 AM

"A civilization that leaves so large a number of its participants unsatisfied and drives them into revolt, neither has nor deserves the prospect of lasting existence." - Sigmund Freud.

Catfish

06-01-20, 12:20 PM

They're protesting in London. Are they protesting American police in the UK? [...]
Well with the internet there can be international Aufregung about everything and everywhere, anytime. I just wonder whether there are as much protests against injustice in China or Russia.. of course some may argue those are lost dictatorships anyway, and for now "we" have to save the western world :03:

@Kptlt Neuerburg well said and good video.. it is like everywhere, an organisation like the police needs people with the best personalities, but they rarely get them. Most are doing much more good than gets to the surface (read: media), but a few are outstandingly bad, and those make the headlines.
Police action in the US is "a bit different" compared to other western countries, one example being those private prisons which have of course a need to be filled to make money. I remember having an english/american schoolbook (printed in and for England and Germany) in the 1970ies named "Cities in crisis", which told exactly what you would see and read in the papers for decades to come, even now.
It was not only about racism, but about people just being split from what we see as normal life. No job, no insurance, no hope, including their children. Frustration building up and at some point, hate.
Main problem is a bad or no education, and when you have to pay for the latter.. another problem of course hat there will never be enough jobs for all, even if all the peole would be perfectly trained and fit in all jobs. This our system does not allow for that.

Regarding racism, you really have to digest this, people being kidnapped from their country and displaced 5000 km away to work and die as slaves, and centuries after that happening no excuse, instead contempt, good old racism just of all by the nation's executing power; no wonder it is perceived as deeply unfair and insulting.
While most people will accept a black co worker like everyone else, i read in another US based forum by a member, that he "did not like to work with blacks", and got a lot of "positive" like-minded answers.
This is all happening now, and it is not new.

Platapus

06-01-20, 12:33 PM

I think there are just some people looking to riot/loot. Does not matter what the protest is about, just an excuse for violence and theft.

I just don't get it.

AVGWarhawk

06-01-20, 01:44 PM

Understand there are group of instigators. ANTIFA. For those pointing to extreme right wing AR-15 toting lunatics there is an alternate universe of far extreme left wing who tote bricks, matches and bats. For some reason they have self appointed themselves as the Justice League. The riots are conducted by ANTIFA. These individuals drive from city to city inciting.

The truth of the matter is no one is policing the police. What happened to Floyd was simply hard to watch. The officer who kneed his way to Floyd's death has 17 some odd excessive force complaints from all walks of life. He pulled his service revolver several times. The city of Minneapolis and it's police commissioner failed Floyd. Accountability for the entire department command should come into question IMO. There is no way this cop should have been on the streets.

mapuc

06-01-20, 01:54 PM

AVGWarhawk

06-01-20, 01:59 PM

ANTIFA is what I understand active in Denmark and Sweden.
(They do not commit terror, while some say they do)

I don't know what will happen to this group, if they are put on the terrorlist.

Will the government in Denmark and Sweden obey and do the same ?

Markus

They will be now. ANTIFA hangs out in Seattle or from my past news reading this is were the destruction has occurred. Funny how the "protesters" wear the same black hoodie and mask. Pallets of bricks mysteriously show up on a street corner in the city.

This group must be watched just as many others are watched here in the states.

AVGWarhawk

06-01-20, 02:01 PM

ANTIFA is what I understand active in Denmark and Sweden.
(They do not commit terror, while some say they do)

I don't know what will happen to this group, if they are put on the terrorlist.

Will the government in Denmark and Sweden obey and do the same ?

Markus

They are committing terror and destruction. People are getting hurt. ANTIFA hangs out in Seattle or from my past news reading this is were the destruction occurs on a regular basis. Funny how the "protesters" wear the same black hoodie and mask. Pallets of bricks mysteriously show up on a street corner in the city.

This group must be watched just as many others are watched here in the states.

skidman

06-01-20, 02:03 PM

Understand there are group of instigators. ANTIFA. For those pointing to extreme right wing AR-15 toting lunatics there is an alternate universe of far extreme left wing who tote bricks, matches and bats. For some reason they have self appointed themselves as the Justice League. The riots are conducted by ANTIFA. These individuals drive from city to city inciting.

Hm. No.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/they-want-their-civil-war-far-right-boogaloo-militants-embedded-themselves-in-the-george-floyd-protests-in-minneapolis/

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pkyb9b/far-right-extremists-are-hoping-to-turn-the-george-floyd-protests-into-a-new-civil-war?fbclid=IwAR2Pkrvu5op8KQUwRYFtXTFzP6KGPeoQk91RA 4KBB52UFnDIXgEL9LT_Kgk

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/30/outsiders-extremists-are-among-those-fomenting-violence-in-twin-cities

AVGWarhawk

06-01-20, 02:06 PM

Hm. No.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/they-want-their-civil-war-far-right-boogaloo-militants-embedded-themselves-in-the-george-floyd-protests-in-minneapolis/

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pkyb9b/far-right-extremists-are-hoping-to-turn-the-george-floyd-protests-into-a-new-civil-war?fbclid=IwAR2Pkrvu5op8KQUwRYFtXTFzP6KGPeoQk91RA 4KBB52UFnDIXgEL9LT_Kgk

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/30/outsiders-extremists-are-among-those-fomenting-violence-in-twin-cities

Hmmm...yes. There are groups from both side of crazy.

skidman

06-01-20, 02:10 PM

Ah, now we are getting somewhere...

Catfish

06-01-20, 02:14 PM

"Antifa" has other interests and nothing to do with that, looting and all. Only Trump says it, but as ususal he tries to divert and put the blame on political enemies.
I think vandalising and looting is done by young, bored "yobs"/teenagers where left or right does not play a role, while a few criminals and right and left wingers try to cook their own soup in all this tumult.

@Platapus i do no really understand it either, "general frustration"?

AVGWarhawk

06-01-20, 02:14 PM

Ah, now we are getting somewhere...

The only place we are getting is innocents in the crossfire and neighborhood destroyed.

AVGWarhawk

06-01-20, 02:16 PM

"Antifa" has
nothing to do with that, looting and all. Only Trump says it, but as ususal he tries to divert and put the blame on political enemies. Yawn.

@Platapus i do no understand it either, "general frustration"?

It will come to light both far right and left groups are fueling the riots.

Why would a white supremist spray paint "no more black lives"and "the rich are not safe anymore"?

Catfish

06-01-20, 02:47 PM

[...] Why would a white supremist spray paint "no more black lives"and "the rich are not safe anymore"?
To fuel the fire? Because "white supremists" are often not very rich? More often than not white supremists have guns.
Where are all the left wing terrorists of the last years, when and where did they perpetrate crimes and terrorist acts, where are their guns, where are they hiding?

AVGWarhawk

06-01-20, 02:53 PM

To fuel the fire? Because "white supremists" are often not very rich?
Alli can say is that more often than not the right wingers have the guns.

What guns? I see bricks, spray paint, bats and matches. So you mean to tell me white supremists spray painted on the WW2 memorial 'do black vets count?" because it incites rage? Interesting.

Rockstar

06-01-20, 03:10 PM

I was looking around for something beside the usual political mud slinging. Apparently there is a psychology to rioting and with todays access to instant media and communication it can spread like wildfire. On a side note, I never knew there were 2011 riots in England. :hmmm:

Understanding Why People Riot
Riots are more complex than "criminality, pure and simple."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hidden-motives/201108/understanding-why-people-riot

----------------------

How the 2011 English riots spread—new evidence shows sense of identity was key

Firstly, two days after Mark Duggan was killed, a protest against the police turned into a riot in Tottenham.
Secondly, the riots spread to a small number of areas in London, including Brixton. A close analysis of the data and accounts shows that Brixton participants often identified with Tottenham – as two areas share a history of rioting over police racism. People in Brixton were therefore influenced to riot out of anger and a sense of injustice at the killing of Mark Duggan
Thirdly, the riots in Croydon and Clapham were more influenced by the perception of police vulnerability across London and an underlying anti-police sentiment in these areas. Deprivation in all these areas was a leading factor.

"While previous research has shown anti-police feeling among the rioters, what we have now found is that the rioters used their views of the police to define themselves collectively. Their sense of identity was key. Knowing and seeing others feeling the same way, across various locations, made the rioters feel that they were not alone, and emboldened them to riot too."

The authors compared London boroughs that saw rioting with those that did not. Deprivation was the strongest predictor of whether a riot occurred in a London borough. There were significantly greater numbers of deprived people in the boroughs that saw rioting than in those that did not see rioting. In addition, the greater the number of deprived people in a borough, the greater the number of recorded riot offences in a borough and the longer the duration of rioting within a borough."

https://phys.org/news/2019-01-english-riots-spreadnew-evidence-identity.html

mapuc

06-01-20, 04:19 PM

Made a Search in English for this Antifa to see if there would be any different what I found on those pages and what I have read and heard about them in our news here in Denmark and Sweden.

There wasn't any difference the Antifa in USA, England, Germany is acting in the same way as they do in Denmark and Sweden.
(Maybe a smaller difference)

The question is though...can this be classified as terror ?

Some of the pages I found

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/X56rQkDgd0qqB7R68t6t7C/seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-antifa

Markus

August

06-01-20, 05:26 PM

What guns? I see bricks, spray paint, bats and matches. So you mean to tell me white supremists spray painted on the WW2 memorial 'do black vets count?" because it incites rage? Interesting.

He is not going to admit that his anarchist darlings are anything but squeaky clean.

mapuc

06-01-20, 06:03 PM

A friend posted this article from last year.
Which makes me wonder:

Was there any riot in the street of Minneapolis last summer ?

But on Friday, Mr. Noor, now an ex-officer and convicted murderer, was sentenced to about 12 and a half years in a Minnesota prison for the death of Justine Ruszczyk, an unarmed woman he killed while on patrol in 2017.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/minneapolis-police-sentencing-mohamed-noor.html?fbclid=IwAR1NyKIHebINPsqtjbSUDuzefAituB2 ELelMPr0F7BYTvRHhLHAyw8sNZSc

Markus

Rockstar

06-01-20, 06:12 PM

It made the news but there were no riots. But then I know police can really screw up badly. Neither am I hammered day in day out by tv and radio telling me how deprived I am and how much I'm owed.

em2nought

06-01-20, 07:43 PM

Neither am I hammered day in day out by tv and radio telling me how deprived I am and how much I'm owed.

At night when I visit with my mother and flip through her cable TV channels it's always TV for trashy people, TV for trashy people, TV for trashy people, TV for trashy people, and then I finally find an episode of Law & Order from the 90s to watch and I wonder at how many crap people we must have produced in this country who watch those new low class shows. The every movie a fart joke from Idiocracy would actually be high brow stuff in comparison to most of what's on cable TV right now. :har:

I sort of expected something like these riots after keeping all those low class people on lockdown for a couple months, and by low class I don't mean anything about color of people's skin. Honey Boo Boo being a prime example of low class. All it needed was one little spark.

Well at least we have Europeans to tell us all about ourselves. LMAO

Skybird

06-01-20, 07:49 PM

Automatic rifles indeed were seen just weeks ago, in three democrats-ruled states that saw their capitol halls stormed by heavily armed "patriots" :haha: in masks. Trump had called for unrest there since these three states threaten his reelection.

Roosters with arms. Hilarious.

em2nought

06-01-20, 08:12 PM

Automatic rifles

semi-automatic rifles

Mr Quatro

06-01-20, 08:13 PM

To fuel the fire? Because "white supremists" are often not very rich? More often than not white supremists have guns.
Where are all the left wing terrorists of the last years, when and where did they perpetrate crimes and terrorist acts, where are their guns, where are they hiding?

What news have you been reading for the last ten years? :hmmm:

They are very rich and very organized ... They have ranches and even have their own churches. They are America's number one home grown terrorist group. The ATF and FBI try to infiltrate them and they get caught with the expected resulting early termination of life. Plus they don't hide their hate for anything that's not white. :yep:

August

06-01-20, 09:25 PM

semi-automatic rifles

That remained unused too. As opposed to Antifa leftists throwing bricks and molotov cocktails, burning down buildings, attacking people for being white etc.

MaDef

06-01-20, 09:38 PM

Automatic rifles indeed were seen just weeks ago, in three democrats-ruled states that saw their capitol halls stormed by heavily armed "patriots" in masks.

Kind of ironic if you think about it, a few weeks ago there were armed protests all across the country. there were no riots, looting or arsons. No teargas or rubber bullets were used, and there were few if any arrests for protesting.

Fast forward, and you have unarmed (supposedly) protests, and there is rioting, looting, arsons, assaults and murders. Curfews have been imposed, mass arrests made, and the National guard has been activated.

Go Figure. :nope:

Kptlt. Neuerburg

06-01-20, 10:30 PM

At the store I work at we where told to bring the box bales inside if we didn't do a reload in case of looters.... and yet left a ton of pallets outside. I guess a rectangle of cardboard is more valuable then a bunch of planks nailed together.

Mr Quatro

06-01-20, 10:51 PM

I'm sorry Catfish maybe your were just being sarcastic :hmmm:

To fuel the fire? Because "white supremists" are often not very rich? More often than not white supremists have guns.
Where are all the left wing terrorists of the last years, when and where did they perpetrate crimes and terrorist acts, where are their guns, where are they hiding?

They even have video tape of people in black paying people cash to set up barriers.

I thought it would be over but the looters have now gone after Macy's in New York and I saw a fire on top of Macy's building too.

What a sad day for America ... back in the Old Testament days an old lady came out and said to the army coming against them, "what do you want"? and the commander said we want the head of the man we are after" She said you will have it by morning and then the next day she threw his head over the wall and the army went way. :yep:

This could've been all averted by giving them the policeman that wouldn't let George breathe, which I think they knew each other and could be a hate crime added too.

Reece

06-01-20, 11:24 PM

the looters have now gone after Macy's in New York and I saw a fire on top of Macy's building too.
What sad days, I think most of these people are using the death of George Floyd as an excuse for rioting! :nope:

Buddahaid

06-01-20, 11:45 PM

What sad days, I think most of these people are using the death of George Floyd as an excuse for rioting! :nope:

You got it right on that account. I'd bet many of the looters don't even know his name.

MaDef

06-01-20, 11:47 PM

What sad days, I think most of these people are using the death of George Floyd as an excuse for rioting! Not excusing the rioters, but the state governments have some culpability for imposing their "lockdowns" for the last 2 months. people are frustrated and the killing of Floyd was the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back"

Reece

06-02-20, 12:45 AM

Yes I think it's a bit of both, adding up to one word - Frustration!! :hmmm:

Catfish

06-02-20, 03:42 AM

Col7777

06-02-20, 05:18 AM

With reference to the 2011 riots in the UK, it spread like wild fire across the country.
Very similar to what is happening now in the US, a single incident in London and the (Protests) riots started all over and like mentioned in above posts, they weren't about the incident but an excuse to rob and cause chaos and a lot of damage.
If you were to stop and ask what they were rioting about most of them wouldn't know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots

Col.

Skybird

06-02-20, 05:50 AM

White supremacists pose as Antifa:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/tech/antifa-fake-twitter-account/index.html

A Twitter account that tweeted a call to violence and claimed to be representing the position of "Antifa" (https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/trump-antifa-protests/index.html) was in fact created by a known white supremacist group, Twitter said Monday. The company removed the account. "This account violated our platform manipulation and spam policy, specifically the creation of fake accounts," a Twitter spokesperson said in a statement. "We took action after the account sent a Tweet inciting violence and broke the Twitter Rules."

Although the account only had a few hundred followers, it is an example of white supremacists seeking to inflame tensions in the United States by posing as left-wing activists online.

The revelation of the account comes as President Donald Trump increasingly blames left-wing activists for violence occurring at protests across America.

On Sunday, Trump tweeted he would designate Antifa a terrorist organization (https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/trump-antifa-protests/index.html), despite the US government having no existing legal authority to do so.

u crank

06-02-20, 06:21 AM

The very idea that the violent far left anarchist group Antifa needs any encouragement to behave the way they do is laughable. The very obvious (to those who are looking) behaviour of this anti Fascist group is to behave like Fascists. Try to explain that.

Skybird

06-02-20, 06:24 AM

An opinion piece from Der Tagesspiegel. I agree.

It's true: Racism in the United States has not existed just since George Floyd was brutally killed by four white police officers in Minneapolis. It is open and hidden, systemic. If you want to see it, you see it. If you don't want to see it, you won't see it.

When George Floyd died, others died. Blacks in the US who develop Covid-19 are 2.4 times more likely to die of infection than whites and 2.2 times more likely than Asians and Latinos. Around 450 people have died of the coronavirus in Washington D.C., the country's capital. Eighty percent of them are black, but they make up just under 50 percent of the population.

Donald Trump also became President of the United States because his propaganda against Barack Obama's healthcare reform, the Affordable Care Act, caught on to white voters. Many of them opposed the taxpayers' money being used to improve the health care of blacks and Latinos.

Racial motives were mixed in from the start with the anger over the health reform. Taking the privileged white majority society into a community of solidarity with all Americans has been rejected as presumptuous.

Now Trump is reaping what he did not sow but fertilized well. The racism that once brought him into office should now ensure his re-election. Nothing else remains for him, no other card stands out. The recession and mass unemployment caused by the corona pandemic have drastically narrowed his range of topics. The result is bitter.

You can see a president walking the short walk from the White House to the opposite “St. John’s Episcopal Church ”released with tear gas. There he holds up a Bible and says: "We are the greatest country in the world." There is a president who threatens to "use the military and solve the problem quickly".

A president can be seen who does not say a word about racism, but swarms to his heart's content about "local terrorists", "criminals" and an "Antifa", which he wants to classify as a terrorist organization.

It is no coincidence that this president repeatedly mentions the second constitutional amendment that guarantees the right to possess weapons. Because that inspires some of his followers to use their methods to ensure law and order. It is no coincidence that this president uses every opportunity for polarization. He is waiting that there is looting so as not to have to talk about the causes of the nationwide rebellion.

Trumpet racism and his phobia of a "deep state" whose representatives want to overthrow him - the FBI, Wall Street, Silicon Valley, the media - are condensing like a burning glass these days. Apparently he projects his own guilty conscience onto his opponents' motives. Trump lives in a mad world from which he can no longer find out. He no longer turns his heart into a killer pit, but heart and pit have long since become one.

Almost three years ago, on July 4, 2017, just in time for the national holiday on which America celebrates its independence, the NPR broadcaster decided to try something new. The declaration of independence had been read on the radio for decades on this day. Now it should be spread in 112 tweets via Twitter.

What followed was an uprising by Trump loyalists who hadn't recognized the quotes. NPR had a mission, called for revolution, spread fake news and propaganda, it was said indignantly, some speculated that NPR's Twitter account had been hacked.

The United States Declaration of Independence is an outstanding document of political philosophy and a foundation of human rights teaching. The preamble states that all people are created equal and have inalienable rights. This included life, freedom and the pursuit of happiness.

A right of resistance is also formulated. If a form of government "becomes pernicious to these end purposes", be it "the right of the people to change or abolish them and to establish a new government". And further: If unlimited rule is to be established, it is the right of the people, "yes their duty", to overthrow such a government.

The sometimes angry reactions to the NPR tweets are revealing. They testify to a deep-seated fear - of overthrow, rebellion, resistance. That fear could be justified in the declaration of independence reinforces this fear.

Racism in the United States has not existed since Trump and not since George Floyd's death. But Trump's racism is compounding the problem. His calculation of being able to profile himself as a firefighter in a fire that he helped launch is sheer cynicism.

According to CNN, Trump is said to have barricaded himself in the White House bunker in recent days. If so, it would be the picture of his presidency in just one picture.

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/trump-und-der-rassismus-in-den-usa-die-moerdergrube-in-seinem-herzen/25879720.html

u crank

06-02-20, 06:36 AM

According to CNN, Trump is said to have barricaded himself in the White House bunker in recent days. If so, it would be the picture of his presidency in one picture.

Another falsehood from CNN. President Trump and his family were taken to this secure bunker by Secret Service agents for a brief time with protesters clashing with police near the White House.

Bilge_Rat

06-02-20, 06:43 AM

Skybird

06-02-20, 06:46 AM

Another falsehood from CNN. President Trump and his family were taken to this secure bunker by Secret Service agents for a brief time with protesters clashing with police near the White House.
Says who? Fox?

I think these details matter as much as the question whether masked Tea Party activists showed automatic rifles or semi-automatic rifles when they stormed into the capitol halls of three states. It is irrelevance blown up in proportion for the purpose of distracting.

Nothing will ever change for the better as long as people do not learn to focus on the things that really matter. TV stations dueling with each other, and weapon mechanisms, are not what it is about.

Dowly

06-02-20, 07:25 AM

I love how everyone is trying to politicize this by arguing whether the violence is being done by far left or far right groups.

Who cares???

Both groups use the same tactics and they are all criminals in my view.
100% agreed. Seems like too much is being concentrated on the looting and violence and whose instigating it instead of what actually sparked this whole thing.

The heavy handed approach by the law enforcement isn't helping. Even if (when) the protests/riots are squashed, the underlying unhappiness within the populace remains and will just flare up again with the next spark.

u crank

06-02-20, 08:51 AM

Says who? Fox?

Really?

There are lots of sources but I'll use the one you trust.

As protesters gathered outside the White House Friday night in Washington, DC, President Donald Trump was briefly taken to the underground bunker for a period of time, according to a White House official and a law enforcement source.

The President was there for a little under an hour before being brought upstairs.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/trump-underground-bunker-white-house-protests/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/trump-underground-bunker-white-house-protests/index.html)

The decision to physically move the President came as protesters confronted Secret Service officers outside the White House for hours on Friday -- shouting, throwing water bottles and other objects at the line of officers, and attempting to break through the metal barriers.
At times, the crowd would remove the metal barriers and begin pushing up against the officers and their riot shields. The Secret Service continually replaced the barriers throughout the night as protesters wrestled them away.

Platapus

06-02-20, 09:12 AM

Mr Quatro

06-02-20, 09:33 AM

Really?

There are lots of sources but I'll use the one you trust.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/trump-underground-bunker-white-house-protests/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/trump-underground-bunker-white-house-protests/index.html)

The SS also thought a bomb might be involved :yep:

Onkel Neal

06-02-20, 09:41 AM

That remained unused too. As opposed to Antifa leftists throwing bricks and molotov cocktails, burning down buildings, attacking people for being white etc.

"You don't need guns, the government will protect you", say the liberals in charge of the rioting cities.

As long as these kind of disturbances remain in the big cities, all will be well. If someone thinks about exporting this nonsense to the countryside, it's gonna be a bad day for rioters, left or right.

Mr Quatro

06-02-20, 09:50 AM

"You don't need guns, the government will protect you", say the liberals in charge of the rioting cities.

As long as these kind of disturbances remain in the big cities, all will be well. If someone thinks about exporting this nonsense to the countryside, it's gonna be a bad day for rioters, left or right.

I wonder what the scales of balance would be on how many guns the left has vs how many the right has?

I only have one gun, perhaps I need more for hunting of course wink wink :arrgh!:

Onkel Neal

06-02-20, 09:55 AM

The true lefties have been saying for decades no one needs or should have firearms. Now, knowing that a core principle of a liberal is hypocrisy, I am betting they will decide to arm up in the coming years. :arrgh!:

Mr Quatro

06-02-20, 10:04 AM

There's a new movie coming out this year that was made last year about a whole city going wild on shooting each other. I couldn't find it, but I did find this: https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/35880-bricks-found-at-protest-sites-suggest-orchestrated-campaign-to-incite-violence

Bricks Found at Protest Sites Suggest Orchestrated Campaign to Incite Violence

Violent protests, looting, and rioting have been taking place in cities throughout the country for days following the death of George Floyd at the hands of police, as mounting evidence continues to indicate that these so-called protests are not organically grown, but are being orchestrated by dangerous and well-funded groups such as Antifa and Black Lives Matter. In areas of civil unrest, pallets of bricks have reportedly been placed, presumably to be used as weapons of destruction by looters when the sun goes down.

A tweet by the Kansas City Police confirmed as much on Sunday:

We have learned of & discovered stashes of bricks and rocks in & around the Plaza and Westport to be used during a riot. If you see anything like this, you can text 911 and let us know so we can remove them. This keeps everyone safe and allows your voice to continue to be heard.

mapuc

06-02-20, 11:00 AM

(how many types of browsers are there ?)

Please tell me I have missunderstod what I read and heard on CNN around 16 hours back.

Trump removed peaceful demonstration with gas and rubber bullets, so he could take some picture in front of some church.

Was this demonstration peaceful ?
Was they removed so Trump could get his picture in front of this Church ?

Markus

AVGWarhawk

06-02-20, 11:30 AM

AVGWarhawk

06-02-20, 11:32 AM

"You don't need guns, the government will protect you", say the liberals in charge of the rioting cities.

As long as these kind of disturbances remain in the big cities, all will be well. If someone thinks about exporting this nonsense to the countryside, it's gonna be a bad day for rioters, left or right.

There was a clown with news crew(a day or so ago) stating they were going to take it to the suburbs. Good luck with that....

Jimbuna

06-02-20, 01:05 PM

skidman

06-02-20, 01:12 PM

Was this demonstration peaceful ?

As far as I know, yes.

Was they removed so Trump could get his picture in front of this Church ?

Yes, the protesters were attacked with tear gas and rubber ammo 30min before the curfew in DC started.

https://cdn.ttweb.net/News/images/178945.jpg?preset=w800_q70

pathetic, helpless, on a highway to hell

mapuc

06-02-20, 01:20 PM

< Thank you for enlighten me.
This is...so...damn wrong in any way.
Here I must say he has acted wrongfully

Markus

AVGWarhawk

06-02-20, 01:27 PM

As far as I know, yes.

Yes, the protesters were attacked with tear gas and rubber ammo 30min before the curfew in DC started.

https://cdn.ttweb.net/News/images/178945.jpg?preset=w800_q70

pathetic, helpless, on a highway to hell

Photo op. They all do it. Trust me in this. :up:

Jimbuna

06-02-20, 01:44 PM

Both groups use the same tactics and they are all criminals in my view.

Precisely :yep:

mapuc

06-02-20, 01:56 PM

Photo op. They all do it. Trust me in this. :up:

Now I'm confused.

Have CNN used a stand-in a person who from a distance look a lot like Trump.

Why I ask, because during this half hour I saw CNN I could see Trump standing in front of the church and after walking back to the White House(I think it was)

Or
Have they used some old video clip ?

Markus

u crank

06-02-20, 02:30 PM

I bet the page regarding adultery has been removed from that megalomaniac's ''good book'':O:

It might be amusing to compare his life to the 10 commandments. :up:

Come on guys. Have you ever read the book you are talking about?

Matt.7-1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

There is a lot more if your interested.

Mr Quatro

06-02-20, 02:56 PM

Come on guys. Have you ever read the book you are talking about?

There is a lot more if your inerested.

Good vs u crank except the last one St John 8:7
Has not been found in the first copies of the Greek Text and was probably a popular saying of the day added in (not that God can't edit his own book)

For the rest of you judging Trump for his sins ... "All have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord" an often used quote by Billy Graham for his altar calls.

I remember being worried about Obama in his last six (6) months of office when the Lord plainly said, "I was still God when Nixon was president"

Meaning don't waste your time worrying about it and I repeat it for y'all "Don't worry about it ... God is in control ... He's just a little busy right now :yep:

vienna

06-02-20, 03:05 PM

https://cdn.ttweb.net/News/images/178945.jpg?preset=w800_q70I bet the page regarding adultery has been removed from that megalomaniac's ''good book'':O:

Its probably just a Bible's cover with something else inside; I would have thought his hand would have burst into flames if he touched an actual Bible... :haha:

It's going to be interesting to see just how far the Religious Right will be willing to go on supporting Trump in the face of his mockery of Christian values; are they, like the Doc Holliday character in Tombstone, afflicted with 'no bounds to hypocrisy' when it comes to backing the moral, ethical, and irreligious 'black hole' that is Trump? Never mind just the Ten Commandments, what about the Seven Deadly Sins? Trump seems to have those covered nearly in full. I really don't see how one could call themselves an observant Christian and still back the vulgarity of Trump...

One thing is sure: trump is in for a very, very warm afterlife... :03:

<O>

Aktungbby

06-02-20, 03:35 PM

There is a lot more if your inerested.

One thing is sure: trump is in for a very, very warm afterlife... :03:
<O>Not if they bury his sinful carcass on Prince Edward Island!:arrgh!:

August

06-02-20, 03:41 PM

White supremacists pose as Antifa:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/tech/antifa-fake-twitter-account/index.html

Oooooh somebody created a fake twitter account! The horror!

Let me lay this on you lefty.
Even Far-Left Southern Poverty Law Center Says No Evidence White Supremacists Sparking Riots

There is “no clear evidence” white supremacists are participating in the rioting and looting sweeping U.S. cities across America following the death of George Floyd, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) conceded in a New York Times report published Sunday.
“Signs of any organized effort or even participation in the violence were relatively rare,” the Times acknowledged in the bottom half of its article, referring to white supremacists.
“I have not seen any clear evidence that white supremacists or militiamen are masking up and going out to burn and loot,” Howard Graves, an SPLC research analyst who tracks white supremacists and other anti-government extremist groups, told the newspaper.
On Monday, Politico did report an account linked to white supremacists was posing as the far-left group Antifa that espouses anarchist views and encouraging violence early last week, two days after Floyd’s death on May 25.
Citing the FBI, a May 29 U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) intelligence memo to authorities, marked unclassified/law enforcement sensitive, reportedly said that on May 27 “a white supremacist extremist Telegram channel incited followers to engage in violence and start the ‘boogaloo ’— a term used by some violent extremists to refer to the start of a second Civil War — by shooting in a crowd.”
A Telegram message urged potential shooters to “frame the crowd around you” for the violence, the DHS document added, according to Politico, which does not provide any evidence of white supremacists actually participating in the riots.
Some supporters of the “boogaloo” should be easy for law enforcement to detect among the rioters and looters since the Times reported they are known to wear Hawaiian shirts.
The SPLC analysts’ comments about there being no evidence white supremacists are taking part in the rioting and looting came after Democrat political leaders in Minnesota, on Saturday, indicated without evidence white supremacists were instigating the civil unrest.
Several news outlets, however, quoted an unnamed spokesperson for the Minnesota Department of Public Safety admitting authorities in the state “cannot say we have confirmed we have cells of white supremacists.”

https://americanpriority.com/news/even-far-left-southern-poverty-law-center-says-no-evidence-white-supremacists-sparking-riots/

Skybird

06-02-20, 04:44 PM

It might be amusing to compare his life to the 10 commandments. :up:
That comparison can, should and must be expanded if extremist "patriots" do not even recognize their own constition they claim to defend.

Almost three years ago, on July 4, 2017, just in time for the national holiday on which America celebrates its independence, the NPR broadcaster decided to try something new. The declaration of independence had been read on the radio for decades on this day. Now it should be spread in 112 tweets via Twitter.

What followed was an uprising by Trump loyalists who hadn't recognized the quotes. NPR had a mission, called for revolution, spread fake news and propaganda, it was said indignantly, some speculated that NPR's Twitter account had been hacked.

I think for many of these self-proclaimed "patriots" their "patriotism" has not much to do with patriotism at all.

eddie

06-02-20, 04:48 PM

Come on guys. Have you ever read the book you are talking about?

There is a lot more if your inerested.

You should try that when talking about Democratic candidates, or are you above that,lol

vienna

06-02-20, 04:57 PM

It looks like Trump's Bible stunt may be blowing up in his face:

Religious leaders condemn teargassing protesters to clear street for Trump --

https://news.yahoo.com/religious-leaders-condemn-gassing-protesters-to-clear-street-for-trump-192800782.html

“Using the Bible as a prop while talking about sending in the military, bragging about how your country is the greatest in the world, and publicly mocking people on a daily basis, is pretty much the opposite of all Jesus stood for,” Rev. James Martin, a prominent Jesuit priest and author, said in a statement to NBC News. “Let me be clear. This is revolting. The Bible is not a prop. A church is not a photo op. Religion is not a political tool. And God is not a plaything.”

Amen, Reverend...

<O>

mapuc

06-02-20, 05:02 PM

Skybird

06-02-20, 05:18 PM

< How I see it.

The critic may be well placed.

But these critics are mostly if not only read and supported by those who already dislike Trump.

What about his supporters, where do they stand in this ?

Markus
Behind Trump.

The Tea Party (remember Sarah Palin...?) has taken over the Republican party, completely. The former Republicans are so silent now , their silence is ear-deafening, they do no longer exist. The party has been eroded from within, the Tea Party has taken it over form within, and those daring to speak out against this process are now either dead (McCain on mind), or so intimidated that they do not oppose them anymnore. They got yelled down by the Krawallbrüder, and if they rarely ery rarely dare to speak out, they get all the hatefilled, vicious vitriol by Trump's Praetorians spit into their faces immediately, and even often by Ceasar himself.

The Demiocratic party is a mausoleum. The Republican party is a cold hollow corpus inside which stingy, aggressive, biting parasites nist like insects in a rotting cadaver. Lets haves a funeral for them both and and forget about them. They are not worth it anymore.

Maybe parties in general have an inbuild "best before" date. Its obvious that everywhere in the West established old party constellations have broken up or down. In Germany. In the UK. In France. Or it is just a system for the general system collapse the West is heading for. China realises that such a Western systemic failure is imminent, Russia probably as well. We already live in a slo-mo collapse of things. With global population still growing and climate warming causing a rat tails of follow-on problems, this process is unliekly to stop, or even just slowing down. I think the pressure can develope just one way: upwards.

Mr Quatro

06-02-20, 05:34 PM

mapuc

06-02-20, 05:37 PM

^^ Then it's up to the American voters to demand a change.

People who live outside can not demand such a thing.

Hope is what these people can hope for.

Markus

Skybird

06-02-20, 05:47 PM

^^ Then it's up to the American voters to demand a change.

People who live outside can not demand such a thing.

Hope is what these people can hope for.

Markus
Voting is what has brought these corrosive things over the parties. They did not ran coups, you know. They made voters voting for those now running the parties.

You are right if you want to imply that the voters are those who are in the end responsble for it. Thats why I do not accept voting beign claimed just to be a legal right. Its also something for which the voter has to be held accountable for.

mapuc

06-02-20, 05:51 PM

Voting is what has brought these corrosive things over the parties.

You are right if you want to imply that the voters are those who are in the end responsble for it. Thats why I do not accept voting beign claimed just to be a legal right. Its also something for which the voter has to be held accountable for.

Since some decades back I have had this standpoint

A voter is responsible for the action they make in the voting booth.

Markus

vienna

06-02-20, 06:02 PM

Wrong again vienna ... Check your facts before someone overseas believes you

No fear gas was used ... Just smoke canisters :yep:

Check your facts again before you make a further embarrassment...

There was tear gas used along with smoke canisters; persons who were on the receiving end of the gas/smoke have stated it was not just smoke alone since they suffered from the classic effects of tear gas, including a clergy member at St John's who was on the church property in a garden alongside the church itself and she confirmed the presence of tear gas. The only major news organization I could find making the smoke canister claim is Fox News, who have a vested interest in defending Trump, and even their report gives no definitive evidence or cite for the 'smoke only' claim; in fact, Fox News refers to only 'it has been reported' without any actual source or reference for their claim(s)...

Speaking of cites and references, I do notice how very often you make claims or cite 'reports' and/or individuals, sometimes even making note of quotes without any link to the source of your cite; I've called you out on some of these 'facts' a couple of times, including one time where you took the effort to contact me via PM regarding a Bible quote you made on the forum that I questioned as even being in the Scriptures; you tried to give me a vague reference, which, when I tried to check it out, was still unable to find any such sort of Biblical source; I did, however find an virtually identical 'quote' from a evangelical website that was critical of a televangelist who apparently tried to foist off the quote as authentic; when I PM'd you with what I had found and asked if you had any actual other sourcing, I heard no response at all; that was the last I heard from you on the subject, so I gather you had/have no source for what appears to be a fake quote...

One thing I do respect, I would venture to guess I am not alone, are posts, and the people who make the posts, that offer confirmable cite and/or links to substantiate their arguments; I may not agree with the argument being made, but I am open to be informed and/or corrected as the matter may warrant...

BTW, out of that entire post of mine, the only thing you could find to dispute was gas/smoke canisters? Interesting you couldn't find something else worth disputing... :yep:

<O>

iambecomelife

06-02-20, 06:42 PM

Not too keen on the politics of all this; I'm just gonna break in to say, please spare a thought for those of us who are living through this right now. I'm close enough to the fighting in my city to literally hear it, and we're subject to a curfew. Fortunately there has been no fighting on my city block. Two people were beaten to near death along the route I used to walk to work - including a man in a wheelchair. I hope those scum are proud of themselves [sarc].

Looters have destroyed stores about a mile from my home AND in my old neighborhood from when I lived on the East coast. I made a run for groceries a couple days ago and felt a true sense of fear (and I'm a pretty big guy). I got home safely, unlike some other people.

At this point I'm sick of both the police brutality+racism and the rioters who are using the situation to prey on innocent businesses/residents. If your politics make beating up a guy in a wheelchair seem like a righteous, rational act then I'm afraid I can't agree with you. Whether you're pro-Anti Trump/Republican/Democrat/Socialist/Libertarian/whatever.

MaDef

06-02-20, 07:01 PM

What about his supporters, where do they stand in this ?

critiquing photo ops isn't on my list of things to think/worry about. I'm wondering when the authorities are going to grow a pair and stop the looting and arsons, and the resultant fallout when they decide enough is enough. those idiots aren't going to get bored and just go away.

August

06-02-20, 07:14 PM

People who are more angry about Trump holding a bible in front of a church than the savages who firebombed it are part of the problem.

skidman

06-02-20, 08:02 PM

Hm. I'm not angry. Your country is becoming a volcano. It could very easily break apart. And the only thing the idiot you put in the Oval Office does about it is posing in front of a church with a bible.

Try to be honest for 10 seconds: Does this worry you and what could be done in order to improve the situation?

August

06-02-20, 08:37 PM

Reece

06-02-20, 09:03 PM

+1 to that August! :up:

Rockstar

06-02-20, 09:40 PM

I dont know gents. Some are still reeling from 2008, now COVID, the shutting down of our economy and confinement causing immense stress, job loss, homelessness etc etc. Coupled with what that police officer did. I would say it certainly has shaken the very foundation. Will we recover? I think so, not going to be easy but I think we will and I think change how our police are trained and accepted into academies will come about because of it. At least I hope so.

On a side note, the intel I been reading Euroes may want to buckle up for a bumpy ride too. Me thinks there is a very good chance civil unrest may be arising AGAIN in your own back yard.

vienna

06-02-20, 10:15 PM

Looks like there's gonna be yet another "Help Wanted - Secretary Of Defense" sign up in the Oval Office:

Esper on Trump church photo-op: I thought we were going to 'talk to the troops' --

In an exclusive interview, Esper also said he had "no idea" about the plan to use force to disperse protesters ahead of Trump's staged visit to St. John's Episcopal Church.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-s-church-photo-op-took-defense-secretary-esper-gen-n1222391

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont know gents. Some are still reeling from 2008, now COVID, the shutting down of our economy and confinement causing immense stress, job loss, homelessness etc etc. Coupled with what that police officer did. I would say it certainly has shaken the very foundation. Will we recover? I think so, not going to be easy but I think we will and I think change how our police are trained and accepted into academies will come about because of it. At least I hope so.

On a side note, the intel I been reading Euroes may want to buckle up for a bumpy ride too. Me thinks there is a very good chance civil unrest may be arising AGAIN in your own back yard.

I'm also sure we'll get through this all; we survived the unrest of the 60s-70s, the political failure at the highest level of government (including criminality in the Oval Office), a few severe economic downturns, any number of "Oh No!! We're all gonna die!!" perceived doomsdays, any various all and sundry form of mini catastrophes, and we're still here, older and, hopefully, at least a little bit wiser. In the near 70 years of my life, there have been an awful lot of experiences and I've always thought we'd pull through, perhaps not as 'business as usual', but more like 'well, that was a learning opportunity'...

This, too, shall pass; what's really important is what we take away from the experience...

...as for the black hole that is Trump and his minions, it/they too shall pass, much like a kidney stone or major colonic blockage...

<O>

vienna

06-03-20, 12:04 AM

I wonder if Secretary Of Defense Mark Esper may have read this letter before he gave that interview distancing himself from Trump's photo-op debacle:

Former Defense official resigns from Pentagon post, slams Esper for role in Trump photo op --

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/02/james-miller-resigns-from-pentagon-slams-esper-for-role-in-trump-photo.html

Miller, a former undersecretary of defense for policy, cited Secretary of Defense Mark Esper’s participation in President Donald Trump’s Monday night photo op in front of St. John’s Church.

The resignation comes as the nation braced for its eighth night of protests sparked by the police killing of George Floyd.

When I joined the Board in early 2014, after leaving government service as Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, I again swore an oath of office, one familiar to you, that includes the commitment to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States . . . and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same.”

You recited that same oath on July 23, 2019, when you were sworn in as Secretary of Defense. On Monday, June 1, 2020, I believe that you violated that oath. Law-abiding protesters just outside the White House were dispersed using tear gas and rubber bullets — not for the sake of safety, but to clear a path for a presidential photo op. You then accompanied President Trump in walking from the White House to St. John’s Episcopal Church for that photo.

President Trump’s actions Monday night violated his oath to “take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” as well as the First Amendment “right of the people peaceably to assemble.” You may not have been able to stop President Trump from directing this appalling use of force, but you could have chosen to oppose it. Instead, you visibly supported it.
Anyone who takes the oath of office must decide where he or she will draw the line: What are the things that they will refuse to do? Secretary Esper, you have served honorably for many years, in active and reserve military duty, as Secretary of the Army, and now as Secretary of Defense. You must have thought long and hard about where that line should be drawn. I must now ask: If last night’s blatant violations do not cross the line for you, what will?

Miller ended the letter by saying, “I wish you the best, in very difficult times. The sanctity of the U.S. Constitution, and the lives of Americans, may depend on your choices.”

Amen, Mr. Miller...

<O>

vienna

06-03-20, 12:40 AM

Wrong again vienna ... Check your facts before someone overseas believes you

No fear gas was used ... Just smoke canisters :yep:

You are right: facts should be checked before someone overseas believes you, Mr Quatro...

US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters. Evidence suggests otherwise. --

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/2/21278559/tear-gas-white-house-protest-park-police

Fox News is catching all sorts of hell over their reportage of Trump's photo-op; they even went so far as to delete critical comments from viewers on their website postings; however, someone at Fox seems to have forgot to shut down the comments section and not only did the criticism continue, there was even more over the deletion of the previous comments and the seeming ineptness at not shutting down the comments section to prevent more...

I guess there really is a very valid reason they felt the need to dump their "Fair And Balanced" motto a few years back...

...also note I've included a link... :03: :D

<O>

vienna

06-03-20, 04:15 AM

https://cdn.ttweb.net/News/images/178945.jpg?preset=w800_q70I bet the page regarding adultery has been removed from that megalomaniac's ''good book'':O:

Say, Aktungbby, you don't happen to be moonlighting as a writer for Stephen Colbert...?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlR0B9KU3Uw

I think you might have a case for copyright infringement... :haha:

<O>

Mr Quatro

06-03-20, 04:27 AM

Check your facts again before you make a further embarrassment...

There was tear gas used along with smoke canisters; persons who were on the receiving end of the gas/smoke have stated it was not just smoke alone since they suffered from the classic effects of tear gas, including a clergy member at St John's who was on the church property in a garden alongside the church itself and she confirmed the presence of tear gas. The only major news organization I could find making the smoke canister claim is Fox News, who have a vested interest in defending Trump, and even their report gives no definitive evidence or cite for the 'smoke only' claim; in fact, Fox News refers to only 'it has been reported' without any actual source or reference for their claim(s)...

Speaking of cites and references, I do notice how very often you make claims or cite 'reports' and/or individuals, sometimes even making note of quotes without any link to the source of your cite; I've called you out on some of these 'facts' a couple of times, including one time where you took the effort to contact me via PM regarding a Bible quote you made on the forum that I questioned as even being in the Scriptures; you tried to give me a vague reference, which, when I tried to check it out, was still unable to find any such sort of Biblical source; I did, however find an virtually identical 'quote' from a evangelical website that was critical of a televangelist who apparently tried to foist off the quote as authentic; when I PM'd you with what I had found and asked if you had any actual other sourcing, I heard no response at all; that was the last I heard from you on the subject, so I gather you had/have no source for what appears to be a fake quote...

One thing I do respect, I would venture to guess I am not alone, are posts, and the people who make the posts, that offer confirmable cite and/or links to substantiate their arguments; I may not agree with the argument being made, but I am open to be informed and/or corrected as the matter may warrant...

BTW, out of that entire post of mine, the only thing you could find to dispute was gas/smoke canisters? Interesting you couldn't find something else worth disputing... :yep:

<O>

My my vienna has teeth to fight back with

At least I got you to read your bible (online that is)

I will turn the other cheek and post the truth:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2020/06/02/trump-campaign-says-tear-gas-wasnt-used-to-clear-protesters-cdc-guidelines-say-otherwise/#1e1c62f21b69

KEY FACTS

A Trump campaign spokesman asked media outlets, including Forbes, to retract stories stating that tear gas was used to clear a group of protesters so President Donald Trump could participate in a photo-op in front of a church Monday.

The spokesman pointed to a statement from the U.S. Parks Police, which said officers did not use tear gas and instead deployed “smoke canisters and pepper balls” on a group of “combative” protesters after they “continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons.”

According to a fact sheet from the CDC, “tear gas” can be used as an umbrella term for various non-lethal riot control agents, including pepper spray.

Today's bible study is seed thought to end these riots in NA

‘Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God’s'. 2 Chronicles 19:15

u crank

06-03-20, 04:46 AM

I wonder if Secretary Of Defense Mark Esper may have read this letter before he gave that interview distancing himself from Trump's photo-op debacle:

Former Defense official resigns from Pentagon post, slams Esper for role in Trump photo op --

From Mr. Miller's statement reported in CNBC article.

Law-abiding protesters just outside the White House were dispersed using tear gas and rubber bullets — not for the sake of safety, but to clear a path for a presidential photo op. You then accompanied President Trump in walking from the White House to St. John’s Episcopal Church for that photo.

President Trump’s actions Monday night violated his oath to “take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” as well as the First Amendment “right of the people peaceably to assemble.”

United States Park Police acting Chief Gregory T. Monahan ...

On Monday, June 1, the USPP worked with the United States Secret Service to have temporary fencing installed inside Lafayette Park. At approximately 6:33 pm, violent protestors on H Street NW began throwing projectiles including bricks, frozen water bottles and caustic liquids. The protestors also climbed onto a historic building at the north end of Lafayette Park that was destroyed by arson days prior. Intelligence had revealed calls for violence against the police, and officers found caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.

To curtail the violence that was underway, the USPP, following established policy, issued three warnings over a loudspeaker to alert demonstrators on H Street to evacuate the area. Horse mounted patrol, Civil Disturbance Units and additional personnel were used to clear the area. As many of the protestors became more combative, continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons, officers then employed the use of smoke canisters and pepper balls. No tear gas was used by USPP officers or other assisting law enforcement partners to close the area at Lafayette Park. Subsequently, the fence was installed.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/02/media-falsely-claimed-violent-riots-were-peaceful-and-that-tear-gas-was-used-against-rioters/

vienna

06-03-20, 05:27 AM

My my vienna has teeth to fight back with

At least I got you to read your bible (online that is)

I will turn the other cheek and post the truth:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2020/06/02/trump-campaign-says-tear-gas-wasnt-used-to-clear-protesters-cdc-guidelines-say-otherwise/#1e1c62f21b69

KEY FACTS

Today's bible study is seed thought to end these riots in NA

‘Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God’s'. 2 Chronicles 19:15

God Lord, did you even read the full link you posted..., at all? Here's the very first paragraph:

TOPLINE

After a storm of criticism, the Trump campaign on Tuesday argued that police officers didn’t use tear gas on a group of protesters the day before in Lafayette Square before the president appeared for a photo-op—but that appears to not be false: police did admit to using a pepper irritant, which the U.S. Centers for Disease Control classifies as a type of tear gas.

The article isn't supporting the claim no tear gas was used at all; its stating the police and military on site did in fact use chemical weapons to clear the way for the grand entrance of president Chump. Trying to split hairs over whether it was tear gas or pepper spray or some other chemical is ludicrous; its like arguing someone who was shot dead is really dead because the reports were he was shot with a .38 and the wound that killed him was a .45; the caliber doesn't matter, the effect is the same, he's dead, and being gassed with tear gas or with pepper spray isn't a significant difference unless you are trying to tap dance your way to excusing the idiocy of Trump and his minions...

The article is not a vindication of the story line Trump's trying to to foist on his gullible Trumpette lemmings; to the contrary, it goes on to bolster the claims of excessive use of force and abuse of power...

And there is this pithy bit you quoted:

A Trump campaign spokesman asked media outlets, including Forbes, to retract stories stating that tear gas was used to clear a group of protesters so President Donald Trump could participate in a photo-op in front of a church Monday.

The spokesman pointed to a statement from the U.S. Parks Police, which said officers did not use tear gas and instead deployed “smoke canisters and pepper balls” on a group of “combative” protesters after they “continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons.”
I mentioned Fox News in an earlier post and the raking over the coals they are taking for reporting what you bolded in your quote; a very large number of persons have noted, and in some cases, have used actual Fox News footage and reportage to prove the protestors were neither threatening nor combative; the footage taken just prior to the troops/police opening fire and following on through the rest of the incident shows clearly the protestors were either sitting around or standing around in peaceful order and really rather quiet; Fox News has neither responded to the questions about why their own footage differs so drastically with the story they tried to push on Trump's behalf. Not even Fox News can produce anything to back up the Trump Administration's lies...

As far as the first paragraph of your quote, the ask for retraction has been met with barely concealed amusement by the news media; I have seen the retraction ask noted in a couple of other reports on the incident and no retractions were made; in fact, one news outlet made a pointed remark at the end of their reportage that no retraction was to be made by them; and there is this from the very link you provided:

The conservative website The Federalist published a story Tuesday declaring the media “falsely claimed” tear gas was used against protesters—which Trump then retweeted—but no major media outlet has issued a retraction.(Bolding mine)

Please note the Forbes article you linked likewise did not offer a retraction; the silence is deafening...

Perhaps you can provide a cite of a major news source making a full retraction of the claims...?...

A far as reading the Bible, I have indeed read the the Bible, cover to cover several times; remember, I have in the past noted I spent nine (9) years in Catholic school and, whaddaya know, they made us read the Bible...often; whodda thunk...?...

...and, at one point in my younger years, gave very serious consideration to becoming a Jesuit, but any hypocrisy I may be inhabited with does know its limits; oddly, I now find myself living alone, almost always dressed in black, and given to self-contemplation, so maybe I have become a Jesuit after all...

I have also read the Torah, the Koran, a number of Eastern religious writings and have enjoyed discussing those writings with various clergy of various faiths; I am not a religious scholar nor do I make any claim to be at all, but I have tried to seek out the why of how people believe what they believe and I neither disparage their beliefs nor do I try to persuade them they are wrong in their beliefs and they, in turn, have pretty much extended me the same courtesy; one thing I can say about those experiences is they were able, each in their own way, to teach me a lot...

I'm still waiting on your cite for that "biblical quote' you made in the past and saw fit to PM me about when I called you on it; maybe its just not in your version of the Bible, eh?...

..and about God's battles: I'm pretty sure God can fight his own and I'm even more sure the very last person he would enlist to help him is a lying, deceitful, adulterer who is an overly prideful, vain, greedy, blasphemous mega-sinner who takes His name in vain like Trump...

...unless you can find a Bible quote to prove otherwise... :03: :yep:

<O>

Mr Quatro

06-03-20, 05:49 AM

So you and the media think that smoke and pepper balls mixed together = tear gas ... technically your right,
but were you also aware that just one Covid-19 person in all of these riots now has been able to share through the use of tear gas his or her virus?

Respiratory disease ... Cough, cough :yep:

Vengeance is mine says the Lord :hmmm:

Are you going to blow a fuse when President Trump defeats Joe Biden in November?

Never mind you take the bait so easy it's not fair :yep:

vienna

06-03-20, 05:50 AM

From Mr. Miller's statement reported in CNBC article.

United States Park Police acting Chief Gregory T. Monahan ...

https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/02/media-falsely-claimed-violent-riots-were-peaceful-and-that-tear-gas-was-used-against-rioters/

I refer you back to a link in one of my previous posts:

US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters. Evidence suggests otherwise. --

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/2/2127855...st-park-police (https://www.vox.com/2020/6/2/21278559/tear-gas-white-house-protest-park-police)

It wouldn't be a stretch of the mind to consider, like many Police Chiefs or other high ranking police officials who have found themselves probably facing investigation or civil legal action for some act(s) they or their force(s) may have committed, the US Park Police Chief and his ranking officials realize they have stepped into a steaming pile and are going to have to answer; we've seen it before, where some police misconduct or overstepping or outright brutality has come to light and the person(s) in charge go into their 'deny, deny, deny' tap dance and, more often than not, devolve into their 'let's make a deal' shuffle; I suspect, given all the visual evidence contradicting the claims made by the Park Police brass, there will be resignations, if not firings, and, in the process, not a few of those involved will 'fess up about the incident to save their own hides; also, given that this stems from a Trump-inspired root, the very high probability of lies and deceit exists on the part of those doing the denials. It will be interesting, when the lawsuits and Congressional probes start up, how those involved in Donny's Little Photo-Op will fare when confronted with the footage and testimonies...

BTW, the Vox article contains this paragraph:

The Trump reelection campaign, though, is sticking with the Park Police, asking reporters — including me — to “retract and correct” published stories that say tear gas was used. (Vox is not retracting its reporting at this time.)Seems like the media is pretty sure their reportage, unlike the Trump-backed claims, will stand a 'sniff-test"...

<O>

vienna

06-03-20, 05:55 AM

vienna

06-03-20, 06:05 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lip5j_ToVcM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZv8GQX8E1I

<O>

u crank

06-03-20, 06:35 AM

I refer you back to a link in one of my previous posts:

US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters. Evidence suggests otherwise. --

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/2/2127855...st-park-police (https://www.vox.com/2020/6/2/21278559/tear-gas-white-house-protest-park-police)

So what you are saying is that acting Chief Gregory T. Monahan is a liar. Hmm, well you can take that up with him.

As for Vox, I consider that publication to be one of many leftwing equivalents of Breitbart News and as such I would be suprised to find anything they publish to be free from the dreaded OrangeManBad bias. And because of that I read much of what they say with a wary eye.

But hey we all have to affirm our confirmation bias to feel good. I know I do.:03:

Was it a dumb thing for Trump to have that photo op? Yea I would say it was but pols do this kind of thing all the time with varying degrees of success. You know like ripping up a copy of the SOTU address on national TV. Sometimes these things don't have the desired effect. And speaking of Mrs. Pelosi, she one ups Trump by actually cracking open a Bible and reading from it to attack her political opponent. Try to imagine for even a second what would happen if Trump did that. Will Vox publish a scathing article criticizing Pelosi's lack of church/state seperation? I'd read that article.

Catfish

06-03-20, 08:50 AM

Bilge_Rat

06-03-20, 09:03 AM

The fact that you compare media like Vox to far-right hate media like "Breitbart" speaks volumes.

That is just more left wing propaganda. When the left does not like a news source, they try to "demonize" it, Nothing wrong with Breitbart, I read it all the time..along with Politico, CNN, FOX, BBC, the Guardian, etc...

Breitbart is actually pretty much the same as CNN these days, except that one is pro-Trump and one is'nt...:ping:

Catfish

06-03-20, 09:30 AM

I cannot take Bannon seriously, not then and surely not now :D

What Bannon said about the Trump/Russians meeting:
“The three senior guys in the campaign thought it was a good idea to meet with a foreign government inside Trump Tower in the conference room on the 25th floor – with no lawyers. They didn’t have any lawyers. “Even if you thought that this was not treasonous, or unpatriotic, or bad ****, and I happen to think it’s all of that, you should have called the FBI immediately.”

And wasn't it him who boasted that the ultra-conservative news organization he has led was the platform for the alt-right, and that he wanted to "bring down and destroy the state"? Seems they did not need him.

Bilge_Rat

06-03-20, 09:48 AM

u crank

06-03-20, 10:05 AM

The fact that you compare media like Vox to far-right hate media like "Breitbart" speaks volumes. Look at what you hear in witness reports, see in films, personal videos and what is now erupting all over the internet. Hard to deny.

I think that you have confused my comparison to agreement with Breitbart. You'll have to prove that. What I do know is that the Left/Right divide in media is now complete. If you read Vox, Slate or any number of left leaning publications you would see that. They are completely in the tank for anything the left believes in and diametrically against any right wing, conservative thought. And the same goes for right leaning outlets. What more proof do you want?

The truth is the media is not your trusted friend. They can be used to find out some facts and data but if you don't realize that all of them are constantly spinning a narrative that agrees with their politics then you are in a fools game that they have created. And what is remarkable is that people will cite left leaning media to prove that there is no bias.

The belief that there are neutral media sources is just plain naive.

Mr Quatro

06-03-20, 10:31 AM

The truth is the media is not your trusted friend. They can be used to find out some facts and data but if you don't realize that all of them are constantly spinning a narrative that agrees with their politics then you are in a fools game that they have created. And what is remarkable is that people will cite left leaning media to prove that there is no bias.

Would you trust the media for which fruit and vegetables to purchase in the market?

No!

Then who would you trust?

Your nose and your experience and your knowledge and your preferences and your intuition :yep:

We tend to do a lot of that in the subconsciousness when watching the news :hmmm:

vienna

06-03-20, 11:00 AM

...

I read Breitbart for the news articles, not the opinions. ...
...

Hmm, really? We thought you read it for the centerfolds... :hmmm: :D

It looks like Defense Secretary Mark Esper is moving further along the road to unemployment over the civil unrest issue:

Defense secretary opposes deploying active troops following Trump threat --

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/03/mark-esper-military-deployment-protests-298314

Defense Secretary Mark Esper declared on Wednesday his opposition to sending active-duty troops into U.S. cities to deal with violent protesters, two days after President Donald Trump threatened to do so if governors don't call up National Guard troops.

"The option to use active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort and only in the most urgent and dire situations. We are not in one of those situations right now," Esper said in his first public comments since the protests erupted.

"I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act," Esper said, referring to the president's authority to deploy active-duty troops to respond to protests.

Expect a Trump tweet storm any time now...

<O>

Skybird

06-03-20, 11:49 AM

Since Trump is the centre of gravity and the navel of the universe, its important to know that he unfortunately can call in troops.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52893540

Whether he would potliclaly and practically survive it, is somehtign different, but as the German proverb goes: "Ist de rRuf erst ruiniert, lebt's sich gänzlich ungeniert." (if your reputaiton is spilked anyway, you can misbehave without any scurples.)

Bilge_Rat

06-03-20, 11:50 AM

Hmm, really? We thought you read it for the centerfolds... :hmmm: :D

<O>

you are dating yourself there, although considering the average age around here, I am sure most get the pun. :ping:

p.s. - is anyone else tired of following the news? I find I am increasingly tuning out.

Platapus

06-03-20, 11:58 AM

PITTSBURGH — There was a sign of positivity at protests in East Liberty Sunday evening.
State Troopers spent the afternoon standing in a parking lot at the Target store in the area.

A protester named Alexander Cash brought a case of water to the Troopers, thanking them.

"I know you guys are out here doing your jobs. I'm not mad at you. I'm mad at the ones that are doing it to us, do you understand? We came out here peaceful, and that's what I'm trying to show ya'll," said Cash as he opened the case of water for them.

Catfish

06-03-20, 01:00 PM

https://i.imgur.com/0nnTCdXl.png

August

06-03-20, 04:19 PM

The fact that you compare media like Vox to far-right hate media like "Breitbart" speaks volumes. Look at what you hear in witness reports, see in films, personal videos and what is now erupting all over the internet. Hard to deny.

To you it's never Right but FAR Right and never Media but HATE Media. Vox is every bit as hateful and biased as Breitbart but you just won't see it.

mapuc

06-03-20, 05:03 PM

Going a little off topic
I have by studying my friends throughout the years come to the conclusion

Which reliable news source a person trust...depends mostly on this persons
political standpoints.

An example
A very good friend of mine, who are more right wing than I'm, post only well mostly article from Breitbart, Gates of Vienna and other alt-right media.

If I post an article from CNN or from some other MSM as source I get the message from this friend...they can't be trusted they all lie to you.

The same goes for my dear friend who is far left(this person is a non-violent person, if you wonder)
This person only or mostly post article from left wing news paper from Denmark.

Which made me conclude.

Which news source a person see as reliable depends on their political standpoints.
(I could be wrong)

End of going a little off topic

Markus

Commander Wallace

06-03-20, 05:41 PM

Well, it's official.

Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison is filing Additional charges against Derek Chauvin. Chauvin had been originally charged with 3rd degree murder and Manslaughter. An additional murder in the 2nd degree has now been filed against Chauvin in addition to the charges he already faces. (https://twitter.com/amyklobuchar)

In addition, aiding and abetting second-degree murder and manslaughter charges have been filed against the other 3 officers involved in the murder of George Floyd. Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng, who helped restrain Floyd, and Tou Thao, who stood near the others, were not initially charged. Lane, 37, Kueng, 26, and Thao, 34, are now charged with aiding and abetting second-degree murder and aiding and abetting second-degree manslaughter.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/george-floyd-officers-charges/index.html

In addition, It is expected that federal hate crime charges will also be filed against all 4 of these former officers. These boys could be facing the dealth penalty for their role in the murder of George Floyd. This is welcome news to everyone except the former officers themselves.

mapuc

06-03-20, 05:52 PM

mapuc

06-03-20, 06:07 PM

Keep on forgetting this important question

Can the President of USA order the military to take action on American soil ?
(sounds wrong, I hope you understand my question anyway)

Some of the news here in Denmark and Sweden say he can't he hasn't the right to do so.

Markus

Platapus

06-03-20, 06:51 PM

Yes he can. The applicable statutes are 10 U.S.C sections 252 and 253.

252
Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=), make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=) in any State (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=) by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=), and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

253

The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=title:10:subtitle:A:part:I:chapter:13:sec tion:253), any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it— (1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=title:10:subtitle:A:part:I:chapter:13:sec tion:253), and of the United States (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=) within the State (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=title:10:subtitle:A:part:I:chapter:13:sec tion:253), that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=title:10:subtitle:A:part:I:chapter:13:sec tion:253) are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or

(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=) or impedes the course of justice under those laws.

In any situation covered by clause (1), the State (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=10-USC-80204913-2012473785&term_occur=999&term_src=title:10:subtitle:A:part:I:chapter:13:sec tion:253) shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.

The insurrection act, which this US Code is based on, is exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act.

The applicable text of the Posse Commitus Act (18 USC section 1385) is

“Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

The insurrection act is an Act of Congress and therefore is exempt from the restrictions of the Posse Comitatus Act.

Does this answer your question?

Skybird

06-03-20, 06:58 PM

I know I know it iss considered to be politically incorrect to tell jokes on blondes, but this stupid hollow-headed girlie is blonde and babbles so much empty trash that she fulfills every, really every cliché about blondes. :haha:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-52915972/white-house-likens-trump-to-churchill-in-ww2

America now offers the UK an apology for that infame comparison. All what Churchill was as statesman and as private man and artist - Trump is none of that.

Commander Wallace

06-03-20, 07:05 PM

^ this have made me wonder.

Right now we are witness to riot in many cities in USA.

What would happen if the verdict they get are...let say less than a couple of years.

Will we see more riot in the Street ?

Markus

That's a good possibility, Markus. Still, With strong video evidence such as this, it's not likely. The Attorney General took their time in making sure they could make the case stick in court. With the world wide publicity, the 4 former officers would have to have their case heard on another planet for this incident not to be known by a jury of their peers.

I'm sure the defendants will try to plea bargain but with as strong as the evidence is against them, I would be surprised if prosecutors would be interested in plea bargaining anything unless it's taking a potential death penalty off the table in exchange for a guilty plea.

Chauvin is 46 so it's unlikely he will ever see the outside again if convicted of all the charges against him. The other 3 are also looking at a lot of years behind bars if convicted. The other 3 officers face the same sentences as Chauvin, if convicted since they are viewed as equal participants in the murder of George Floyd.

Skybird

06-03-20, 07:11 PM

That's a good possibility, Markus. Still, With strong video evidence such as this, it's not likely. The Attorney General took their time in making sure they could make the case stick in court. With the world wide publicity, the 4 former officers would have to have their case heard on another planet for this incident not to be known by a jury of their peers.

I'm sure the defendants will try to plea bargain but with as strong as the evidence is against them, I would be surprised if prosecutors would be interested in plea bargaining anything unless it's taking a potential death penalty off the table in exchange for a guilty plea.

Chauvin is 46 so it's unlikely he will ever see the outside again if convicted of all the charges against him. The other 3 are also looking at a lot of years behind bars if convicted.
Whats your assessment - will it become a formally fair trial, or a slaughtering of potlical pawns to satisfy the crowd? The case against Chauvin's role is apparently beyond doubt, but the others - will they get fair punishemnt for their role in it, or will they be sacrificed by excessive verdicts to get the road silent again?

I honestly don'T know and do not dare to assess this from my side, so I am just asking.

Skybird

06-03-20, 07:19 PM

The attempt by Trump to politicise the military can easily become one of the many serious damages that will outlast his time in office by long years to come after him.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/02/it-just-doesnt-seem-right-pentagon-officials-on-edge-over-military-leaders-dealings-with-trump-297820

The military must resist to make the same mistake the Wehrmacht made regarding Hitler. It shall not, under no circumstances, allow to get abused for personal interests of the leader.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/10/james-mattis-trump/596665/

This ^Admiral Mattis said recently: "Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us." (...)"We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children."

Commander Wallace

06-03-20, 07:33 PM

Rockstar

06-03-20, 08:29 PM

Whats your assessment - will it become a formally fair trial, or a slaughtering of potlical pawns to satisfy the crowd? The case against Chauvin's role is apparently beyond doubt, but the others - will they get fair punishemnt for their role in it, or will they be sacrificed by excessive verdicts to get the road silent again?

I honestly don'T know and do not dare to assess this from my side, so I am just asking.

If you can find the documentary 'Peace Officer' it's well worth the watch. Its not just blacks that are subject to the abuses of law enforcement. I really hope this trial opens the eyes of law enforcement AND politicians a little wider

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/peace-officer-2015

"Peace Officer" is a nearly great documentary about a national crisis, but its heart is a tragedy with a sickening ironic twist. The protagonist, retired law enforcement officer Williams "Dub" Lawrence, became the youngest sheriff ever elected in his hometown of Centerville, Utah, and started the city's first Special Weapons and Tactical unit, or SWAT team; thirty-three years later, that SWAT team would shoot his son-in-law to death after a domestic disturbance call.

Lawrence has spent the last six years investigating the incident and others like it. In the process, he has come to the conclusion that not only was his son-in-law's death preventable, it was inevitable considering the culture of SWAT teams and mentality of law enforcement bureaus that feel naked without them. The relationship between police and citizens has been severed. Law enforcement agencies invest in automatic weapons, rocket launchers, armored vehicles, grenades, tear gas and other signifiers of a military mentality that views civilians—the very people that police are sworn to protect—as The Enemy. "Peace Officer" is a simple, provocative and correct title for this movie. It's is about a particular peace officer, Lawrence, a soft-spoken man whose wide grin and affable manner mask deep reserves of melancholy and righteous anger. But it is also about the idea (outmoded these days, unfortunately) that the main job of police should be to keep the peace: to preserve and protect and defend, not attack and destroy and dominate and terrorize.

Lawrence's odyssey began in 2008, when his son-in-law, a likable but also brooding and recessive man, snapped during an argument, struck his wife, then went out into his pickup truck with a pistol and sat there pointing the weapon at himself. The house was swarmed by tactical officers from all over the county looking for a piece of the action. What happened next was in dispute until Lawrence clarified things after-the-fact. The official version of events said that Lawrence's son-in-law was shot dead after an hours-long standoff with police (an initial police report erroneously claimed he killed himself). What actually happened was that dozens of tactical officers in riot gear took over the neighborhood like an occupying army, driving armored trucks up onto lawns, putting sniper units all over the neighborhood, and even sending a team to break into the house next door, smashing windows and ripping out screens to get a better shot at the suicidal man.

Lawrence rushed to the scene as soon as he heard what was happening, and afterward, his instincts kicked in and he began conducting his own investigation, collecting shell casings and evidence of gas and chemical sprays and "flash-bang" grenades that official investigators had missed, and putting them in sealed evidence bags. One hundred and eleven shots were fired in total. Lawrence contends that his son-in-law did not have to die—that the situation was exacerbated and escalated by the John Wayne mentality of police tactical units. They started out in the late 1960s in response to urban riots and hostage situations, were co-opted into faceless, black-clad, military-styled strike teams during the 1980s War on Drugs, and now seem to have their own identity and agenda.
Lawrence stores evidence on this case and others in an airplane hangar. The place is an extraordinary sight; a gallery of misconduct, with photos and documents lining every available wall. Lawrence has become an advocate of deescalating police tactics and ending the stateside arms race. Too many people are dying for no good reason, he believes. The SWAT culture has become rotten and frightening, a greater threat to democracy than the crises it was invented to address.

This film by Brad Barber and Scott Christopherson—a debut feature, remarkably—combines the best elements of old school and new school nonfiction film making. On the old-school end, you have a series of character portraits that are perceptive and empathetic without seeming to shade the truth or tip over into special pleading, and stories of SWAT team brutality and arrogance that strengthen Lawrence's assertions. (Among the most appalling of these is another Utah incident where SWAT officers broke into the wrong house on Christmas Eve due to a paperwork error, terrified a family of three, then exited, not with an apology, but by telling the terrified father, who naturally had assumed the cops were home invaders, that if he'd had a gun instead of a bat, "you'd be dead.") New school elements include the alternately mournful and ominous score (by Michah Dahl Anderson), the strikingly composed inserts of evidence (an Errol Morris touch), and extensive footage taken from police videos (which allows for a clinical study of what went wrong, as well for as an intensely cinematic recreation of horrifying moments.) This is one of the year's best films. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/Peace_Officer_%28film%29_POSTER.jpg

Torvald Von Mansee

06-03-20, 10:40 PM

My my vienna has teeth to fight back with

At least I got you to read your bible (online that is)

‘Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God’s'. 2 Chronicles 19:15

Oh, cool, you must think Matthew 19:24 is pretty apt!!

vienna

06-03-20, 11:32 PM

But at least, unlike Florida, its said to be a dry heat... :03: :D

<O>

Catfish

06-04-20, 02:35 AM

OT here, but since the media were a theme here.. also sorry for being late again, but since you (u crank) answered directly here, also as answer to August.
I think that you have confused my comparison to agreement with Breitbart. You'll have to prove that. What I do know is that the Left/Right divide in media is now complete. If you read Vox, Slate or any number of left leaning publications you would see that. They are completely in the tank for anything the left believes in and diametrically against any right wing, conservative thought. And the same goes for right leaning outlets. What more proof do you want?

The truth is the media is not your trusted friend. They can be used to find out some facts and data but if you don't realize that all of them are constantly spinning a narrative that agrees with their politics then you are in a fools game that they have created. And what is remarkable is that people will cite left leaning media to prove that there is no bias.
The belief that there are neutral media sources is just plain naive.

"Left" and "right" have always criticized each other, in more or less(!) civil way. I do not trust any media news, i am trying to look at all (which of couse has become impossible with the internet) and wage them against each other.

BUT: there are still some journalistic principles openly visible that anyone can look at and check for himself. These basic principles are still being followed by some, but not by others. A lot of those principles have gone haywire in most new media outlets.

Any !"§$%&/ can create a website today and write his opinion into that, as people with more money can do this with a newspaper. I see Breitbart as exactly that. While Bannon at least may have had his right wing "vision" to destroy the state with the gospel of his "national populist revolt" (lmao, this literally means power to the dumb), Fox has nothing of it.

Bannon himself called his media "the platform for the alt-right" in 2016. In 2016, Breitbart News became a virtual rallying spot for supporters of Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. The company's management solicited ideas for stories from neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups and individuals (proven!). It clearly worked to advance and market ideas of those far right groups.
I fail to see how this medium can be regarded as civil or even neutral, while comparing it to Vox, Slate or whatever other medium. This is a blatant attack on the state and another calibre.

While Bannon had his own medium for his vision to support the hard right, Fox is just an echo for the current president. They have no vision and no idea other than being pro-Trump (they are not even "conservative"). Anything that does not fit in their view is being left out, called fake news, dismissed, or warped in a way it fits their agenda. When something is being exposed as an ice-cold lie they call their opinion alternative facts, following their shining leader.

No other big media does it as blatantly as they do. Any comment or report in other media usually also has at least some critic for the left or even attacks it, but you will never ever find the slightest of this towards the right in Fox or Breitbart.
They cannot be compared to other media, the others are simply not quite on this level of lying and destruction.

I agree that media behaviour has reached an all-time low, but what or who do you think initiated this divide?

Cybermat47

06-04-20, 02:43 AM

James Mattis Denounces President Trump, Describes Him as a Threat to the Constitution
In an extraordinary condemnation, the former defense secretary backs protesters and says the president is trying to turn Americans against one another.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social&utm_term=2020-06-03T21%252525253A59%252525253A05&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=the-atlantic

“I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled,” Mattis writes. “The words ‘Equal Justice Under Law’ are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.” He goes on, “We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution.”

James Mattis is a veteran of 44 years in the USMC, the former Secretary of Defence, former Commander of the United States Central Command, and former Commander of the United States Joint Forces Command.

Catfish

06-04-20, 05:35 AM

My assessment is very simple. [...]
Not really simple but an excellent assessment.
There are meanwhile some videos circulating showing police officers who say they are on the (peaceful) demonstrators' side.
The U.S will have to throw the full weight of the law including the Federal Government against these former officers to demonstrate to the world that they don't tolerate this sort of behavior, even though they do. [...]This is it, although those four officers probably deserve it they will also act as scapegoats for others, and the generally deteriorating situation. "Justice served" while the mindset of the fed. government still tolerates brutality towards black people, and remains the same behind pretended remorse.
It is about brutalizing the mindset and words, creating the general situation and making the murder.

u crank

06-04-20, 07:07 AM

I fail to see how this medium can be regarded as civil or even neutral, while comparing it to Vox, Slate or whatever other medium. This is a blatant attack on the state and another calibre.

Well I guess that depends on your political view. Lets be honest, we all have a political bias. I will admit mine. Although at one time many years ago I would have called myself an old school Liberal but now lean toward a conservative view point. But I still have many socially Liberal values.

The simple truth Kai is that you would be very unlikely to find a variety of political opinions at CNN, MSNBC, the NYT, WP or Vox. Almost all on air or contributing 'journalists' are blatanly Left/Progressive and vote Democrat. This of course can't help but slant the 'news' reporting and prevents true journalism from taking place. I've been following US politics since the Nixon era and of course the media's reporting of US politics. Things have changed although the media type's politics haven't. Back then they kept their political opinions to themselves for the most part. Not any more. Now they are proud of it. They're in the Resistance.

I agree that media behaviour has reached an all-time low, but what or who do you think initiated this divide?

It is complicated but in simple terms the rise of Fox News and other Right wing media was only natural and inevitable. And nesesary in the face of a very one sided coverage of politics in America. You can place the blame for the appearance of FOX, Breitbart and the Blaze squarely at the feet of the Left wing media in the USA. People today are much better informed and see through the left and right wing media bias if people care to look critically at what is being presented to them. It is unfortunate and I don't like it but like politics, media coverage has become hyper partisan. And I don't see it getting any less so in the near future.

Skybird

06-04-20, 07:22 AM

My assessment is very simple. The U.S, which is where I reside, has long proclaimed itself as the individual defenders of peoples rights, worldwide. The U.S has long complained about human rights in China and Iran, just to name a few countries.

The tables have turned and the U.S record regarding police brutality against everyone but particularly African Americans has been laid bare for scrutiny and scorn, worldwide. The militarization of local police forces has also been called into question. This didn't just happen with the murder of George Floyd. Others have lost their lives over frivolous matters in dealing with law enforcement officers. This is why you see Police officers joining protests as well. This incident and murder makes all decent and honorable law enforcement officers look bad. It also places them at risk for lethal retaliation and they are aware of that. There have been incidents of attacks on police officers in the last week.

These 4 former Minneapolis officers are hardly political pawns, as you describe them. They are nothing more than murders and should be treated and regarded as such. They are being held accountable to the same standard with which they used with other defendants who allegedly, let me repeat that, allegedly committed a crime. Our legal system holds that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. It's a standard they denied George Floyd when they murdered him in cold blood. The 4 officers involved in this incident on the other hand, will have their day in court.

To save face, The U.S will have to throw the full weight of the law including the Federal Government against these former officers to demonstrate to the world that they don't tolerate this sort of behavior, even though they do. I fully expect Federal Hate crime charges to be filed in the coming days or weeks against these officers in addition to what has been filed at the state level. This murder has given the U.S a pretty good black eye on the world stage. I fully expect to see legislation enacted and bills written
to address these abuses on a number of levels. The Supreme Court should consider abolishing the Immunity that public officials like police officers have enjoyed to protect themselves from prosecution in engaging in crimes while hiding behind a badge.

For these former officers, they will have the unique opportunity to see the legal system from an entirely different perspective. If I were these officers, I would be scared. I'm sure they are in protective custody in jail but if they are convicted, they should be put into the general population and not protected. This would send a strong message to any law enforcement officers operating on the fringes of the law and serve as a strong deterrent.

Like everyone else in the U.S, It's been a numbing experience to have endured the last week. I have faith and confidence that the people in the U.S are good people and will have the will to try to make things right through concrete actions and legislation.
Your reply perfectly illustrated why I asked. Now, do not take me as wanting to attack you, I do not want that at all. But obviously you are emotionally quite engaged over the topic, and that is no surprise. I think the atmosphere is extremely charged up in the US, and this raises expectation for what the court has to fulfill in promises of the law, or promises for "justice". In principle you say that an example has to be executed, you do not name it that, but that is what your description is implying. And who could call you out for that? I don't. But there is a conflict in all this, because it mounts pressure and expectations. If I would reword my original question, i could also ask my question like this: with the rules on paper being like they are, is it likely that they will indeed be followed - or will expectations and street pressure and a political desire to solve this crisis and get back into an election campaign mode positive for the office holder make rules being bend and sentences being predecided just so to get this crisis solved for the time being? Will the other officers therefore maybe get a more severe punishement than they would have gotten under "normal" circumstances with less public attention? Thats what I meant when calling them "poltical sacrifices" or "pawns". They all share their part of the guilt, no doubt, but it is not as obvious to decide on them than it is to decide on Chauvin - it was him having his knee on the man'S neck. A smoking gun.

Commander Wallace

06-04-20, 07:38 AM

Not really simple but an excellent assessment.
There are meanwhile some videos circulating showing police officers who say they are on the (peaceful) demonstrators' side.
This is it, although those four officers probably deserve it they will also act as scapegoats for others, and the generally deteriorating situation. "Justice served" while the mindset of the fed. government still tolerates brutality towards black people, and remains the same behind pretended remorse.
It is about brutalizing the mindset and words, creating the general situation and making the murder.

To be fair, it isn't simple as you said. This is also just my opinion and of course others may have a different take on the situation. I on the other hand don't see the officers as scapegoats in the least. There are many documented cases of racially motivated arrests and abuses by law enforcement officers.

The murder of George Floyd is the tipping point. These 4 officers, in full view of recording devices, decided they were going to execute someone and didn't show the slightest bit of regard or remorse for taking a human life. The callousness of the officers involved in full view of everyone makes this offense all the more egregious. You are right about the pretended remorse and no law will eradicate long held prejudices. The key is making the penalties for acting on those prejudices so high as to act as a strong deterrent.

I'm sure these officers have investigated other crimes and perhaps murders as well. I'm equally certain the 4 officers didn't give those defendants a free pass. Why then should these officers be given a free pass and not be held accountable for their actions ? Apparently the Attorney General feels as strongly as I do regarding the conduct of these officers.

When these officers executed George Floyd, they victimized all of us, even if you don't reside in the U.S. The conduct of these 4 officers is an affront and insult to human dignity and truly diminished all of us as human beings whether you live in the U.S, U.K, Germany, Russia, France or wherever. Those protestors in other countries understand that and I'm sure many others feel the same way.

Skybird

06-04-20, 08:10 AM

What separates murder from slaughter is the willful intention to kill. "Vorsatz" in German.

I doubt that Chauvin was so stupid to intentionally commit murder while having cameras directed at him. His pose reminded more of wanting to pose with his prey - an impressively huge dark man - to his feet with his boots on the trophy. He acted brutally, no doubt, the motive for that has to be examined, and he probably underestimated the critical effect of his action with his knee and body weight loaded on the suspect's neck.

If you say its murder, you must prove that he hjd the deliberate intention to see the man lying dead to his feet. I base on the assumption that it was careless slaughter, based on the experience of living in a subconsciously omnipresent racist climate. I could be wrong, its just my preliminary subjective idea.

That everybody now calls "murder!" shows how charged up the atmnosphere is. And the pressure comign from that climate si what leaves me wondering whether the court will hold up its independence, even more so since politicis will issue pressure as well.

There should be a sentence for slaughter against chauvin, I so far think. but the reasons for that sentence must be crystal clear and fully rational and clean. This senteence will be example for the future, and that is why it is so important that it does not leave the smallest shadow of a doubt. It shall not become a payback trade for a history of America's original sin - slavery - and the follow-on racism that lives until today. That is object for political and social debate. A court must be above such things. A court shall not try to chnbage a culture. It is subject to chnages brigzht to it due to culture chnaging itself. The legal princples of the Us are far ahead of the present status of Americna sopeity and culture. A court shall neither want to rush ahea dof them even further, nor should it allow to lower itself to the standards of the embedding culture around. It just should stick to the principles it was given. Executive, legislation and jurisdiction must stay seaparate entities, and independent from each other.

Bilge_Rat

06-04-20, 09:09 AM

Tom Cotton supports President Trump, describes him as acting within the Consitution

In an extraordinary letter of support, the current Senator from Arkansas backs President Trump and says the protesters are trying to turn Americans against one another.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/tom-cotton-send-in-the-military/ar-BB14ZqeC

Some elites have excused this orgy of violence in the spirit of radical chic, calling it an understandable response to the wrongful death of George Floyd. Those excuses are built on a revolting moral equivalence of rioters and looters to peaceful, law-abiding protesters. A majority who seek to protest peacefully shouldn’t be confused with bands of miscreants.

But the rioting has nothing to do with George Floyd, whose bereaved relatives have condemned violence. On the contrary, nihilist criminals are simply out for loot and the thrill of destruction, with cadres of left-wing radicals like antifa infiltrating protest marches to exploit Floyd’s death for their own anarchic purposes.

These rioters, if not subdued, not only will destroy the livelihoods of law-abiding citizens but will also take more innocent lives. Many poor communities that still bear scars from past upheavals will be set back still further.

One thing above all else will restore order to our streets: an overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers. But local law enforcement in some cities desperately needs backup, while delusional politicians in other cities refuse to do what’s necessary to uphold the rule of law.

In these circumstances, the Insurrection Act authorizes the president to employ the military “or any other means” in “cases of insurrection, or obstruction to the laws.”

This venerable law, nearly as old as our republic itself, doesn’t amount to “martial law” or the end of democracy, as some excitable critics, ignorant of both the law and our history, have comically suggested. In fact, the federal government has a constitutional duty to the states to “protect each of them from domestic violence.” Throughout our history, presidents have exercised this authority on dozens of occasions to protect law-abiding citizens from disorder. Nor does it violate the Posse Comitatus Act, which constrains the military’s role in law enforcement but expressly excepts statutes such as the Insurrection Act.

For instance, during the 1950s and 1960s, Presidents Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson called out the military to disperse mobs that prevented school desegregation or threatened innocent lives and property. This happened in my own state. Gov. Orval Faubus, a racist Democrat, mobilized our National Guard in 1957 to obstruct desegregation at Little Rock Central High School. President Eisenhower federalized the Guard and called in the 101st Airborne in response. The failure to do so, he said, “would be tantamount to acquiescence in anarchy.”

More recently, President George H.W. Bush ordered the Army’s Seventh Infantry and 1,500 Marines to protect Los Angeles during race riots in 1992. He acknowledged his disgust at Rodney King’s treatment — “what I saw made me sick” — but he knew deadly rioting would only multiply the victims, of all races and from all walks of life.

Not surprisingly, public opinion is on the side of law enforcement and law and order, not insurrectionists. According to a recent poll, 58 percent of registered voters, including nearly half of Democrats and 37 percent of African-Americans, would support cities’ calling in the military to “address protests and demonstrations” that are in “response to the death of George Floyd.” That opinion may not appear often in chic salons, but widespread support for it is fact nonetheless.

Tom Cotton is a Harvard Law Graduate, a decorated military veteran who served combat tours in Irak and Afghanistan and the current junior Senator from Arkansas.

Mr Quatro

06-04-20, 09:36 AM

What if???

The policeman involved get a plea bargain or even go through a trial with a mis-trial (happens) or get away with what everyone see's as guilty before being porven innocent?

The man in question was on drugs or at least had drugs in his system and was larger in size than most of them. He could've taken them all on standing up, which of course
does not excuse the policeman for not taking his knee off a man's neck that he had previously stood security watches with at a local nightclub.

These protesting riots are nothing compared to what will happen if the policeman get a not guilty pass ... :yep:

Jimbuna

06-04-20, 09:40 AM

Col7777

06-04-20, 09:55 AM

I agree with Quatro above.

I'm in the UK and I don't really know your politics very well in the US, but I have watched a lot of crime documentaries and some court trials.
As mentioned above I've seen people get off on a technicality and a miss trial verdict etc.

So what I think is these protests and riots that have spread to other countries are actually making a difference, though I don't agree with the riots side of it.
But... I think the decision of the verdict will be very carefully thought out here because as mentioned above, (IF) by some chance they get a light sentence or even get off there will be a lot more trouble.

I will repeat, I don't condone the violence side of these protests so I'm not advocating this should happen, but I can see it happening.

I watch the video clips of the protests and news reports in the US and the UK and other countries and I can't help wondering what is in the minds of Chauvin and the other 3 cops right now.

Col.

Aktungbby

06-04-20, 10:01 AM

Say, Aktungbby, you don't happen to be moonlighting as a writer for Stephen Colbert...?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlR0B9KU3Uw

I think you might have a case for copyright infringement... :haha:

<O>
https://images.theweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/4_sack.png?itok=2P5JxNWX

Mr Quatro

06-04-20, 10:38 AM

Perhaps you prefer Obama's swearing in on his bible, uh?

vienna

06-04-20, 11:06 AM

...

Tom Cotton is a Harvard Law Graduate, a decorated military veteran who served combat tours in Irak and Afghanistan and the current junior Senator from Arkansas.

This the same Tom Cotton who was passed over by Trump two (2) times as Secretary Of Defense (instead, the job went Mattis first, then Esper) and once as Secretary Of State (job went to Pompeo)? Is it a coincidence Cotton's glowing support of Trump suddenly pops up now that Defense Secretary Esper appears to be on shaky ground for publicly opposing Trump, and the job Cotton was passed over for twice may again be open..?... :hmmm:

Just saying...

<O>

Texas Red

06-04-20, 11:14 AM

My dad came up to us- my brothers, my mom, and I- yesterday while eating dinner and he said to all of us at the dinner table, "Kids, what we are going through is a historic time for both the US and the world. Coronavirus is affecting the whole world at this moment and something like this has not happened since the Spanish Flu Outbreak. We have not seen anything like this on this scale for a while. In our country, people are wanting (now this is what he said, not sure if it lines up with your guy's opinions) "Police brutality to stop" and "Black people to be treated better". This is like the 1960s all over again which your grandparents are going through again. This is a historic time for us."

I'm pretty sure he was making that up in his mind while he was working. At the dinner table, we got into a conversation over the stuff happening in this world. I cannot wait for these times to end and life to get back to normal.

Wishing that every member here on Subsim stays well and safe! Maintain your silent run!

Bilge_Rat

06-04-20, 11:45 AM

mapuc

06-04-20, 11:45 AM

@ Platapus

Thank you for your answer to my question.

Did it answer my question ?

To be honest, not quite, there were some words or sentence in those quotes you posted I really couldn't get the hang of.

Your answer also made me remember a very old issue on Danish news program which was exactly in the evening on Tuesday 15 April 1986.

It was the main story in the news this day and following days.

I remember some of what this Danish journalist said to us the viewer.

From memory

"An American president has the authority to give an order of attack to his military forces anywhere in the world.
He must, however, notify the speaker of the house. The president is not without responsibility.
Also remember that he (the journalist) was asked if the President also had the power to declare war on another country.
Here was the answer:
No, the president cannot do this, it's only the Congress who has to power to do so."

Markus

Texas Red

06-04-20, 01:26 PM

This the same Tom Cotton who was passed over by Trump two (2) times as Secretary Of Defense (instead, the job went Mattis first, then Esper) and once as Secretary Of State (job went to Pompeo)? Is it a coincidence Cotton's glowing support of Trump suddenly pops up now that Defense Secretary Esper appears to be on shaky ground for publicly opposing Trump, and the job Cotton was passed over for twice may again be open..?... :hmmm:

Just saying...

<O>

Here I agree with you. Anyone who opposes Trump will most likely be relieved of their job etc. Kinda like a dictator! :O:

If you want a job that you've been wanting for a long time, you might also wanna start supporting or praising the person who controls who gets that job.

James Mattis Denounces President Trump, Describes Him as a Threat to the Constitution
In an extraordinary condemnation, the former defense secretary backs protesters and says the president is trying to turn Americans against one another.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social&utm_term=2020-06-03T21%252525253A59%252525253A05&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=the-atlantic

James Mattis is a veteran of 44 years in the USMC, the former Secretary of Defence, former Commander of the United States Central Command, and former Commander of the United States Joint Forces Command.

Honestly, I've felt that way for a long time. Trump isn't doing anything good for our country IMO. We should've kicked him out of office so we can have a president who can actually lead people.

Man, I wish that FDR was president at this time.

u crank

06-04-20, 01:36 PM

We should've kicked him out of office so we can have a president who can actually lead people.

How would you kick him out of office?:hmmm:

mapuc

06-04-20, 02:18 PM

How would you kick him out of office?:hmmm:

By reading Platapus splendid explanation on how the machinery runs in the White House.

There's only three way a President can be removed from Oval Office

1. Through election
2. Through an impeachment.
3. Through Political steeps where the Vice President is part of it.
There could be some other peaceful option I may have missed.

Then there is an option I don't like to even think of.

Markus

u crank

06-04-20, 02:37 PM

There's only three way a President can be removed from Oval Office

1. Through election
2. Through an impeachment.
3. Through Political steeps where the Vice President is part of it.
There could be some other peaceful option I may have missed.

Then there is an option I don't like to even think of.

Markus

Number one is Nov 3, 2020.

Number two has been tried and it failed spectacularly.

Number three is highly unlikely unless Trump strangles Nancy Pelosi.

I would suggest a bribe. It can't hurt to try. :D

vienna

06-04-20, 03:25 PM

A very compelling and detailed essay on Trump's threats to use military power to quell civil unrest and the negative implications and ill-effects of such a course of action on American democracy; the author is Retired US Marine Corps Four Star General John R. Allen, a distinguished military leader and noted and respected authority on Governance, Foreign and Domestic Policy; he is also, currently, the President of the Brookings Institution, a highly regarded 'think tank' considered to be the finest organization of its kind in the US and, perhaps, in the world, and which has had its findings and opinions cited by political leaders of all parties and/or political bent; it is a non-partisan institution and is widely viewed as a centrist organization...

Here is USMC General Allen's analysis of Trump's action's as posted on the Foreign Policy Magazine's website:

A Moment of National Shame and Peril—and Hope

We may be witnessing the beginning of the end of American democracy, but there is still a way to stop the descent. --

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/03/trump-military-george-floyd-protests/

One wonders, did Esper and Barr know that hundreds of peaceful U.S. citizens had been attacked by riot police just minutes before, their civil rights massively violated just to set the stage for their picture? Did it occur to them that in posing with the president and the Bible he held in front of a church, ostensibly calling down the authority of God on this cause, they were violating the spirit of one of the most important strictures in America, the separation of church and state? And if federal troops are indeed dispatched into the states to take action against American civilians, where does the Bible and the Christian God figure into the president’s deployment order? The framers of the Constitution intended the separation for a reason, and the commander in chief just trampled it.

In the immediate aftermath of this dark moment, late into the night, there was an eruption of theological debate about what it all meant on that historic day when a U.S. president weaponized the church and the Bible for a photo-op in order to justify his cause. Bishop Mariann Budde of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington said all anyone needed to say in order to settle the debate: “Let me be clear: The president just used a Bible, the most sacred text of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and one of the churches of my diocese without permission as a backdrop for a message antithetical to the teachings of Jesus and everything that our churches stand for.” Apart from the bishop’s truly righteous indignation, there really was no need for further discussion. Donald Trump isn’t religious, has no need of religion, and doesn’t care about the devout, except insofar as they serve his political needs.The president failed to project any of the higher emotions or leadership desperately needed in every quarter of this nation during this dire moment. We know why he did all this on Monday. He even said so while holding the Bible and standing in front of the church. It was about MAGA—“making America great again.”

To even the casual observer, Monday was awful for the United States and its democracy. The president’s speech was calculated to project his abject and arbitrary power, but he failed to project any of the higher emotions or leadership desperately needed in every quarter of this nation during this dire moment. And while Monday was truly horrific, no one should have been surprised. Indeed, the moment was clarifying in so many ways.

So, what is to be done? At nearly the same moment that Americans were being beaten near the White House on behalf of their president, George Floyd’s brother Terrence Floyd visited the site of George’s murder. Overcome with grief and anger, he loudly upbraided the crowd for tarnishing his brother’s memory with violence and looting. And then he told Americans what to do: vote. “Educate yourselves,” he said, “there’s a lot of us.” So, while June 1 could easily be confused with a day of shame and peril if we listen to Donald Trump, if instead we listen to Terrence Floyd, it is a day of hope. So mark your calendars—this could be the beginning of the change of American democracy not to illiberalism, but to enlightenment. But it will have to come from the bottom up. For at the White House, there is no one home.

I know some will knee-jerk when they see the word "illiberalism" used in the very first sentence of the piece and go into Pampers-filling near-apoplexy, but here is an actual definition, as it appears in Wikipedia, of the word as used in the context of an "illiberal democracy":

An illiberal democracy, also called a partial democracy, flawed democracy, low intensity democracy, empty democracy or guided democracy, is a governing system in which although elections take place, citizens are cut off from knowledge about the activities of those who exercise real power because of the lack of civil liberties; thus it is not an "open society". There are many countries "that are categorized as neither 'free' nor 'not free', but as 'probably free', falling somewhere between democratic and nondemocratic regimes". This may be because a constitution limiting government powers exists, but those in power ignore its liberties, or because an adequate legal constitutional framework of liberties does not exist.

Sorry that Gen. Allen had to use a fancy, big word, but that's what happens when a complex issue is addressed by someone with that sort background who actually knows what he's talking about...

Maybe his comments would be easier to take if he were someone brown-nosing to get a job...

<O>

Rockstar

06-04-20, 04:01 PM

You're such a one trick pony. Whats yours and the generals opinion of all the other presidents in American history which used military to quell looting, riots and help bring about order? What's the difference between what the current president seeks and those presidents which authorized such action in 1967 and 1992? Why all of a sudden this aversion to restoring order? You can still allow the peaceful protests to continue as in fact many are peaceful. Its the agent provocateur, numbskulls, and criminals using chaos to take advantage of the situation that need to stopped.

When I watch the SpaceX lift-off. Trump spoke of wanting exactly that, to stop the looting and lawlessness. But allow the process of peaceful protest and bring order out this chaos. But because of pin headed party fanboy points of views and divisiveness of current politics it now something which isn't allowed? Peoples businesses are being ruined and lives destroyed and you are saying its OK because some general said?

mapuc

06-04-20, 04:06 PM

Number one is Nov 3, 2020.

Number two has been tried and it failed spectacularly.

Number three is highly unlikely unless Trump strangles Nancy Pelosi.

I would suggest a bribe. It can't hurt to try. :D

I have seen it here and on FB.

Friends who blame Trump for this problem and only him.

Well voters short time memory haven't been that great.

This problem with all these demonstration and riot is not a problem who started right after Trump was elected.
No it's a problem who have been subdued for years if not decades.

Which voters seems to forget.
Blame your politicians not only Mr Trump, but everyone of your elected should be blamed for this or these problems
(This is how I see it)

Markus

Onkel Neal

06-04-20, 04:30 PM

Tom Cotton is a Harvard Law Graduate, a decorated military veteran who served combat tours in Irak and Afghanistan and the current junior Senator from Arkansas.

And he very early and accurate in forecasting the coming pandemic.

Anyone else notice these suspects look white, Asian, and black ?

https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106564239-1591227106800three_cops.jpg?v=1591279855&w=740&h=416

I've been hearing this incident was racially motivated. I'm confused.

Commander Wallace

06-04-20, 05:03 PM

^ Probably because the main instigator in this incident is Derek Chauvin, who is white. The other 3 have been charged with aiding and abetting . It remains to be seen if in fact this was racially motivated murder. More likely is that Chauvin was a loose canon as evidenced by the many complaints against him.

Rockstar

06-04-20, 05:38 PM

Can race have something to do with such treatment we saw? Yes, but personally I think playing that card every time something like this takes place removes the focus off of what I think is a more prevalent problem. That is law enforcement has for sometime now looked at those they are supposed to serve and protect as an enemy. As well as the obviously apparent attitude of being more interested in protecting each by looking the way rather than speaking up to say: "hey partner what you are doing is wrong so get off the guys freaking neck."

mapuc

06-04-20, 06:07 PM

Some of my friends are sharing a story about a young man named Tony.
During his arrest he was treated badly by the police who even mocked him.

This caused no demonstration or riots.

Here is more on this story

The body camera footage tells the story: Tony Timpa was struggling, begging Dallas police officers who were holding him in a controversial position to let him go.

Within minutes he had stopped breathing, while officers joked that he had fallen asleep, according to the footage first obtained from the police department by The Dallas Morning News after a nearly three-year battle for its release -- part of the newspaper's investigation into the August 2016 death of the 32-year-old man.
The City of Dallas and its police department fought the release of the footage, first citing an ongoing investigation that saw three officers indicted, then the case's dismissal.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/02/us/dallas-police-body-cam-footage-captures-death/index.html

If I was an American I would hold my elected politician accountable
because the George Floyd case is not the only one.

Markus

u crank

06-04-20, 07:00 PM

the author is Retired US Marine Corps Four Star General John R. Allen, a distinguished military leader and noted and respected authority on Governance, Foreign and Domestic Policy;

From the General's Wikipedia page...

Allen was a featured speaker at the 2016 Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia on July 27, 2016, on the topic of national security. He criticized Republican nominee Donald Trump and endorsed Hillary Clinton for President.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Allen#Political_role

Who'd thought.:03:

Rockstar

06-04-20, 07:06 PM

I've said it before if Generals want to buck the system and crap on the chain of command, openly criticizing the C in C in front of the troops. Then he ought to resign his military privileges, rank, position, and pay or have it taken from him and he can go on squawking about all he likes. Otherwise he needs to do his duty shut his mouth and keep his opinions too himself or his peers.

August

06-04-20, 07:25 PM

From the General's Wikipedia page...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Allen#Political_role

Who'd thought.:03:

Plenty of Generals are part of the Deep State.

August

06-04-20, 07:27 PM

I've been hearing this incident was racially motivated. I'm confused.

Making it about race furthers the narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmt1rcKjScw

em2nought

06-05-20, 12:23 AM

The guy didn't deserve what happened to him. Neither was the guy a model citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj7D4-VLZlQ

Cybermat47

06-05-20, 06:14 AM

Guys, I think we can all agree that the cops killing people for no reason in broad daylight is worth protesting about, after so many people, white and black have been killed. We’ve seen other cops join the protestors, so obviously they’re concerned by what’s going on.

What I do not understand is why the peaceful protestor’s reasonable demands of increased police accountability are not being met by US state and federal government/s. I thought the USA was founded on libertarian principles like small government, where the people’s voices were more important than the government’s? Where the power resided with “we the people”?

Onkel Neal

06-05-20, 06:47 AM

Skybird

06-05-20, 07:22 AM

One does not see much when living one's life with eyes shut. Those willing to see racism where it exists, do see it. Those determined to deny its existence, will not see it.

But like in Germany the new Libertarians did themselves no favour by not wiping out the Nazi influence within their rows that now takes their party over more and more, anti-racism movements in America did themselves no favour by allowign to get hijacked by far-left ideologists and socialists, environmentalists, gender-activists and fascismo-feminists.

Justified topics get hijacked this way, distorted and watered down until they cannot be recognised anymore. That way, the hijackers corrupt them.

And the original topic becomes unsupportable that way.

On the police itself, usually there are great differences being seen between polices in Europe or Japan, Australia - and the US. In the US the training is much shorter and the focus is more on combat fighting it gets reported again and again this way, as if the police were a military unit going to battles. Soft skills (psychology, communication, conflict management), are undervalued, where in othe Wetsenr cioutnries the yget much more time to be learne dand trained. Also many police units have been militarised also materialistically, with equipping them with military equipment. Finally, many former soldiers and ex military people go to the police after they left the armed forces. That attitude no doubt carries over.

Cybermat47

06-05-20, 07:48 AM

I think we all agree with that. I question the immediate jump to the racial element. Calling it police brutality, I understand.

There are definitely some cases of police brutality that are motivated by racism or other forms of prejudice, but then there are others like Justine Damond (another case of the MPD unreasonably killing someone), and almost certainly the cases of Jessica Boynton or Thomas Brown, which seem to be motivated by a variety of different reasons.

Which raises the issue of what exactly is wrong with these departments. Is there improper training, or some kind of “us vs them” mentality when it comes to dealing with the public? Or is it simply that some people trip on power (which in some cases emboldens them to act on their prejudices), and most of the department chooses to stand by a colleague rather than investigate properly? Or is it a mix of all those factors?

Onkel Neal

06-05-20, 08:23 AM

I'm no expert, but I think it is "some kind of “us vs them” mentality when it comes to dealing with the public" to a large degree. Our society is changing, people in big cities, and the cops change with them.

I know, someone will be clever and post Aristotle or someone from 2000BC commenting on how civilization is going to ruin, etc. Regardless, that's how I see it. My short stint teaching school confirmed a lot of that thinking. I certainly know in 1969 if I had said F --- this in a classroom, I wouldn't be able to sit down for a week. Today it's different. Society is different. And people who are tasked with dealing with the bottom feeders of society are probably becoming jaded and coarse too.

Jimbuna

06-05-20, 08:24 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSPx0zuUktY

u crank

06-05-20, 08:31 AM

Which raises the issue of what exactly is wrong with these departments. Is there improper training, or some kind of “us vs them” mentality when it comes to dealing with the public? Or is it simply that some people trip on power (which in some cases emboldens them to act on their prejudices), and most of the department chooses to stand by a colleague rather than investigate properly? Or is it a mix of all those factors?

There is probably no single reason but you make some valid points. With regards to training I cannot believe that police officers cannot be trained to not do what these guys did. What possible reason is there for these guys to not put handcuffs on Mr. Floyd and put him in a cruiser? There's four of them and they have mace and tasers. It has to be bad training combined with bad personel. Hopefully this case will spark a change in that kind of behavior.

The “us vs them” mentality is also a real problem. A big contributing factor is police unions. Many times efforts to reform police behavior are resisted by powerful unions. The current head of the Minneapolis police union is Bob Kroll. He has a record of disciplinary actions against him including a couple of suspensions and a lawsuit against him. Why is this guy in charge of that union?

MaDef

06-05-20, 09:31 AM

Which raises the issue of what exactly is wrong with these departments. Is there improper training, or some kind of “us vs them” mentality when it comes to dealing with the public? Or is it simply that some people trip on power (which in some cases emboldens them to act on their prejudices), and most of the department chooses to stand by a colleague rather than investigate properly? Or is it a mix of all those factors?

The war on drugs, the war on crime, the war on gangs, the war on terror, the war against poverty....., anybody else see a common theme? those phrases make for good sound bytes by both the media and politicians, People have been using the phrases since at least 06/18/1971. (Nixon first used the term "war on drugs"). So it's only natural for police depts. to incorporate military gear & tactics to fight these "wars". This moment has been 50 yrs in the making, and there is no "quick fix". You can make a start by demilitarizing the police and the politicians need to repeal all the various laws put in place to fight all those different "wars".

Buddahaid

06-05-20, 10:31 AM

American English uses the term and the word fight for everything. Fight cancer, fight poverty, etc., never help cure or help eliminate.

Dowly

06-05-20, 10:41 AM

This is the problem:
https://i.redd.it/dt0mybnnr1351.jpg

And this isn't a singular case, the police seem to be aiming their less-lethal rounds to the head area all too often.

Another example, here a 16yo is shot in the head with a less-lethal round, he wasn't being violent.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gwhlnd/justice_for_levi/

Mr Quatro

06-05-20, 10:45 AM

This is the problem:

And this isn't a singular case, the police seem to be aiming their less-lethal rounds to the head area all too often.

Another example, here a 16yo is shot in the head with a less-lethal round, he wasn't being violent.

You should check in more often Dowly :yep: ... How's it going over in Finland?

Rockstar

06-05-20, 11:20 AM

"This is the problem" 1st, glad to see you back. But I dont get the picture. Is it trying to get across how cops shot a guy in the head with a 40mm BIP? Then from a distance removed him from his wheel chair and took his pants down to his knee caps using telekinesis? Or was the guy in the wheelchair the victim of a crime committed by rioters and looters?

Dowly

06-05-20, 11:59 AM

Geez, I wasn't away that long.

I couldn't tell you how his pants got to where they are, he is a homeless man from what I've seen written.
You can see the wound in the following photo better:
https://www.dailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/LDN-L-PROTEST-DOWNTOWN-0603-31-SR-1.jpg

EDIT: Oh, and yes, he was apparently shot at by the cops.

Catfish

06-05-20, 12:30 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSPx0zuUktY
:o Wtf and why did they do that? There is blood coming out of his ear, he surely has suffered a basal skull fracture. I hope he survives.

Jimbuna

06-05-20, 12:48 PM

:o Wtf and why did they do that? There is blood coming out of his ear, he surely has suffered a basal skull fracture. I hope he survives.

I've twice been in riots in the past and I can honestly say I never targeted one single individual who wasn't posing a threat to myself, a colleague, any individual or piece of property.

It shouldn't be hard to identify those responsible but there has to be a will there by the authorities :nope:

mapuc

06-05-20, 02:29 PM

(I haven't tried Edge yet)

The is a saying

the straw that broke the camel's back.

To use this as some kind of metaphor

The Camel is USA the straw who are loaded on this camel is all the problems which have been luring in the society for years.

The killing of George Floyd was the straw that...

I interpret this demonstration and riot as a common denominator of all the problems the American citizen is struggling with

Markus

Skybird

06-05-20, 03:04 PM

White House fortifies its perimeter as if it were the Alamo, extending the barriers and fences outward further at least twice. A "president" connecting to his people... And free of any instincts cautioning him, Trump in words again today has spilled oil into the fire. This man's head is so deeply stuck in its mad mind, it will never find back into the normal world again.

Run, rabbit, run,
dig that hole, forget the sun,
and when at least the work is done,
don't sit down, its time to dig another one.
For long you live, and high you fly,
but only if you ride the tide,
and balanced on the biggest wave
you race towards an early grave.

Commander Wallace

06-05-20, 06:08 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSPx0zuUktY

This is disgraceful. This older gentleman was hardly a threat to these officers. The 2 police officers identified in the video have been suspended. 57 members of the emergency response team resigned in support of these 2 officers. This video took place in Buffalo, New York.

The elderly man in the video is in the hospital in serious condition but he is alive. Hopefully with good hospital care, he will be alright.

Skybird

06-05-20, 07:39 PM

There are immense differences in training quality between US and European polices. The focus also is different, and most likely far more complex and complete in Europe.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-training-time-needed-for-south-carolina-police-experts-say-1428510642?cb=logged0.6995546384791691

That article describes an incident from 2015, mentioning that the involved officers got training for just 9 or 11 weeks!

In Germany, it depends whether you become a police officer bei "Ausbildung" or "Studium". It lasts 2.5 and 3 years.

One can expect that in Europe the focus is far more inclusive of soft skills and psychological conflict (and stress) management.

Jim can tell how training is in the UK, I found no real helpful numbers on total training times. Just several courses listed that lasted from several weeks to up to one year, with most or all of them needing to be taken and passed.

It also gets said over here time and again that by comparison a tremendously higher ammount of ex-soldiers join the police in the US. I strongly suspect the military, combat-focussed attitude taught in the military, gets carried over then, including that strongly competitive team spriit of "us against them". Just that warriors should be left in the army, not being put into the civil police force that makes the cops you see on the streets. SWAT and special teams , counter terror and such, okay. But the ordinary police cop? "Soft" may have a foul taste for some, but "soft skills", communication, stress management, psychological handling of people and situation, is important for police work. After all, the streets are not Normandy beach.

That those 57 others quit the emergency support team in solidarity with those two colleagues, by all what is known I conclude shows a troubling mindset and a wrong attitude. They should be removed from police service if supporting the two is their consequence of this action. By all what is known so far.

Warriors into the army, but not into the police. Solidarity and loyalty can be misled. And as my grandfather used to say: there can be no such thing as a "corrupt cop". There only are cops, and corrupt people. Corrupt people are no cops, even if they wear a uniform or have a badge.

Jimbuna

06-06-20, 04:29 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSPx0zuUktY

:o Wtf and why did they do that? There is blood coming out of his ear, he surely has suffered a basal skull fracture. I hope he survives.

This is disgraceful. This older gentleman was hardly a threat to these officers. The 2 police officers identified in the video have been suspended. 57 members of the emergency response team resigned in support of these 2 officers. This video took place in Buffalo, New York.

The elderly man in the video is in the hospital in serious condition but he is alive. Hopefully with good hospital care, he will be alright.

Yep, the public deserve better but there is more to this story apparently.

According to the Buffalo News, the members have stepped down from the Emergency Response Team, but not the police department itself.

John Evans, president of the local police union, told the newspaper: "Our position is these officers were simply following orders from Deputy Police Commissioner Joseph Gramaglia to clear the square.

"It doesn't specify clear the square of men, 50 and under or 15 to 40. They were simply doing their job. I don't know how much contact was made. He did slip in my estimation. He fell backwards."

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said on Friday the two officers should be fired, and called for the incident to be investigated for "possible criminal charges". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52945190

Catfish

06-06-20, 04:38 AM

Thanks Commander Wallace, as said i hope he makes it.
" I don't know how much contact was made. He did slip in my estimation. He fell backwards."
Good that there is the video :nope:

Reminds me of the justice-in-America joke where they find that black man, multiple shot wounds, some knife stabs, a hangman's knot around the neck, handcuffed, with a concrete block around his feet, found dead down in a well in Alabama. And the sheriff saying "Never saw such an obvious case of suicide."

Jimbuna

06-06-20, 05:14 AM

Yes, there will be those in establishment who will try to cover their own backs and aid in poring water on the fire but I'm betting they are in the minority.

Commander Wallace

06-06-20, 08:01 AM

Thanks Commander Wallace, as said i hope he makes it.

Good that there is the video :nope:

"

You are more than welcome, Kai. I know you, Jim and many others, were concerned of this older gentleman's health. We will of course let all of you know if we hear more on the story. Please do the same.

@ Skybird: Excellent dissertation on the merits of using former military members as police officers and why that is not a good idea. @ U-Crank ( Marcel ) also hit the nail on the head so to speak with regards to the power and influence of the police unions and the role they play in the protection of rogue officers.

Although it's a truly ugly story we are seeing unfold, It's great to see the intelligent and informed comments and opinions that are being expressed here by our Subsim members, worldwide. Awesome work, everyone. :yep:

Platapus

06-06-20, 08:33 AM

American English uses the term and the word fight for everything. Fight cancer, fight poverty, etc., never help cure or help eliminate.

We are a violent and fearful culture.

Rockstar

06-06-20, 08:51 AM

We are a violent and fearful culture.

Which has also been taught to venerate its military and after 911 its police, everyone wants to be a soldier.

Maybe we've become a warrior nation.

Now we have Generals publicly criticizing the civilian Commander in Chief. That IMO is the most scariest part of all of this. A soft military coup.

Skybird

06-06-20, 11:06 AM

That is no "coup". A very huge number of retired high ranking militaries, as well as all four living former presidents, the -still active minstre of defence and the already fired minstre before him, hvainjg been a respected high ranking soldier himself - they all "come together" and stand themselves up in Trumps way, to protect their country against him.

Trump is the danger and the enemy here. These retired soldiers all stand by their oath to protect the country and its people. A bit late that enlightenment finds them, but at least it happens.

Its a desperate - and determined? - effort to stop the amok run of this abusive human flame thrower. The Trump that we see now - would be the Trump we see in the coming four years if he is allowed another term, we wpould then act without remorse and would not need to fear any conseqeunces. And that is a nightmare perspective.

He must be stopped. At all costs. At any means. He must be stopped, for he has the potential to really destroy your county completely. And maximising damages to the world.

I would even accept a coup to stop him - but a coup is not what thse retired commanders and presidnets and ministries now do. It is an attempt to save the country and the military from Trump.

A coup would be if Trump could have it his ways. He has often enough fantasized on what he woulkd like to do and like to see beign done and happening. Laws and legal siotzuaitons and limits were of no concern to him then. Always spilling more and more napalm into the fire. A maximum of dispise for other people not obeying his will to power.

This man has just one concern: TRUMP. And he is set to rip America completely apart for this ambition. What is left of its former, hear-sayed unity at least.

We see a culmination point of all what has gone wrong in American politics in the past 20, 30, even 40 years. And its racism policy as well. It all culminates now, and it must become the decisive turning point. Else it will make America implode. And if it implodes, it then either becomes a failed state, or a fascist police dictatorship.

The funny part is I recall that I said this already in the wake of the debates on the Iraq war, 2003 and following. The growing militarization of the police and the growing divide between the poolitical camps was visible in superstark contrast already back then, with the latter reaching back even more decades before that, going back to the end of the Vietnam war at least. Carter vs. Reagan at the latest were the turning point when the political dualistic system of the US broke apart. A last lullaby sung by Reagan, and after that it was shockwaves mounting on shockwaves only.

Everbyody here knows that I usually call for people to boycot elections and not to legitimise any party or any politicians for anything. I dsaid often enoigh what I think of campoaiugns and elections, and hiow flawed the whole system is, and that it is not even democratic in ancient Greek meaning. And I take not back a single word from all that. But Trump has gotten me so far that I am willing to break with my own rule. I say go voting, and vote for Biden. Biden will be a joke of a president. He will be lame, and tired, and maybe will not even last a full term, to me he is not really the brightest intellectual light out there, and the chance is big that during his speech on the state of the union he will fall asleep at the microphone. Well, all that is better than four more years of Trumpian destruction and hatespeech and lies and vitriolic fog poisoning the air. Vote for Biden. Not due to conviction or sympathy, but due to desperate need. The alternative would be far more violent.

To make this clear once again: my support for Biden starts and ends with just having Trump removed, not more than just this. Beyond that clearly defined purpose I hold not one quantum of respect or trust either for him nor for his party. I would recommend to vote for Miss Piggy from the Muppet Show if that would be the key to get rid of Trump.

u crank

06-06-20, 12:02 PM

He must be stopped. At all costs. At any means. He must be stopped, for he has the potential to really destroy your county completely. And maximising damages to the world.

I would even accept a coup to stop him - but a coup is not what thse retired commanders and presidnets and ministries now do. It is an attempt to save the country and the military from Trump.

Lets ask a simple question here. Do you have any evidence for this kind of rhetoric? What precisely has he done? And I'm not talking about bad governance or hiring and firing people. And I don't mean his policies. And I don't mean what he is saying. Yes he is a blowhard who brags and belittles his opponents. It is dispicable behavior but is it illegal or unconstitutional?

Let's ask another question which I hope you will answer. Is there any evidence that President Trump is using the Office of the Presidency, the Department of Justice, the FBI and the intelligence agencies to thwart the campaign of Joe Biden? Because it is now becoming abundantly clear that his predecessor, Barrack Obama did just such a thing.

I am far more concerned about what politicians do than what they say.

Rockstar

06-06-20, 12:30 PM

.... A very huge number of retired high ranking militaries, as well as all four living former presidents, the -still active minstre of defence and the already fired minstre before him, hvainjg been a respected high ranking soldier himself - they all "come together" and stand themselves up in Trumps way, to protect their country against him.

Ummm, I think you just defined a coupe or probably better defined as a "boardroom coup" which is to unseat an existing executive. Hasn't this boardroom coup been the goal all along? Nothing to be concerned over huh? I beg to differ.

“The death of George Floyd on the streets of Minneapolis was a grave tragedy. It should never have happened. It has filled Americans all over the country with horror, anger, and grief,” Trump said at the outset of remarks at the Kennedy Space Center in Cape Canaveral, Fla., after viewing the historic SpaceX launch.

“I understand the pain that people are feeling. We support the right of peaceful protesters and we hear their pleas. But what we are now seeing on the streets of our cities has nothing to do with justice or with peace,” Trump continued. “The memory of George Floyd is being dishonored by rioters, looters, and anarchists.”

“No one is more upset than fellow law enforcement officers by the small handful who fail to abide by their oath to serve and protect,” Trump said.

“In America justice is never achieved at the hand of an angry mob. I will not allow angry mobs to dominate,” Trump said, declaring it “essential” that the “rule of law” and independent justice system be protected.

Now what is it again I'm supposed to be afraid of? What are all the glorious military Generals protecting me from? What gave them the right to condemn and openly criticize a duly elected official and their Commander in Chief? What laws did the president break to garner such open rebellion? I get it, you dont like Trump, a lot of people dont but its no reason for such things to happen then get lectured how its for my own good.

Onkel Neal

06-06-20, 12:55 PM

Bilge_Rat

06-06-20, 01:39 PM

Skybird, this might be time to seek professional help.

Commander Wallace

06-06-20, 02:19 PM

@ Sky. you are way out of line here. It's ok to make observations regarding the Happenings in the U.S. Calling for the head of a foreign Govt to be removed by means of a coup is way out out of bounds. The U.S Govt Has checks and balances built in to keep things in balance.

The U.S like any Nation has it's issues. With the good people here in the U.S, our situation will be resolved as it should be. I think you should refrain from throwing any more rocks, if you get the picture.

Skybird

06-06-20, 02:29 PM

Calm down, this isn't your government.
By how it behaved especially towards Germany in the past three years I could swear it does not know that.

Skybird

06-06-20, 03:24 PM

The U.S Govt Has checks and balances built in to keep things in balance.

I must be dreamnign that I still must read such things. Since three years I see these things failing with flying colours and trumpet fanfares.

But then, the NSDAP was voted to power, and Hitler formally absolutely correctly got announced as Reichskanzler bei Hindenburg. Formally, all that was correct and according to the laws. But then, the tyranny later, the crimes committed by the state and its organs, all were legally excused, all based on valid laws of that time. Some parts of Germany's modern legislation are the same as back in that time, or bases on them!

You can have compliance with all such rules, and nevertheless the evil comes to power, legally, formally correctly (thats what make sit so tricky to resist it and to stop it whuile there sitll is time), and untouched by checks and balances.

Later many Germans said in Nürnberg they were just following orders. Orders given by superiors who then acted on grounds of higher orders - and legal authorizations. The same principle then worked again later after the war, during the Soviet occupation and the reign of the SED in the GDR. They acted within the reach of the laws in that country. The crimes they committed, were legally no crimes, not by their own laws.

Your country as well, every country in the world, is vulnerable to such processes. the basis for safeties and checks and balances failing in the end almost always is complecancy with the status quo and or/the legacy one enjoys as a heir.

If your checks and balances would work, it would not need a full term or even two terms to get rid of a malicious imposter in office abusing the powers he has been given for his own private, personal interest. The past three years prove two things: the weakness and indiffernce of the Democrats, and the failing of the system itself. Itr has not what it takes to stop somehtign like Trump. The designers of this system probably just could not imagine something like Trump ever happening.

Sorry, but your country is as normal as so many others as well. And your politics are as broken as in almost all other countries as well. Maybe even more so. Welcome amongst the rest of us.

mapuc

06-06-20, 03:47 PM

After reading Skybird's latest comment. A question popped up.

Isn't there some kind of "safety laws" that prevent an elected President turning into a Dictatorship ?

Markus

u crank

06-06-20, 04:24 PM

If your checks and balances would work, it would not need a full term or even two terms to get rid of a malicious imposter in office abusing the powers he has been given for his own private, personal interest.

The checks and balances were put in place to remove a President if he engages in criminal or treasonous activities. Tweeting isn’t one of those activities.

Rockstar

06-06-20, 04:27 PM

Every system of government needs an enemy. For the German government they use Germany's past as the enemy to steer the public mind. So I'm not surprised by his comments and fears of dictators

mapuc

06-06-20, 04:54 PM

Do NOT blame Trump for all these problems USA have.

These problems have, what I understand, been there for years if not decades.
The American should blame every elected politicians there are in USA.

I guess the American voters are like the Europeans
Their trusted politicians cradle them quietly, by saying what they like to hear.

Markus

Aktungbby

06-06-20, 05:05 PM

Their trusted politicians cradle them quietly, by saying what they like to hear.

MarkusIndeed! Cradling constituents is the very definition of 'politics'... from the Latin expression : "Julius Caesar was every woman's man...and every man's woman!":shucks:

Mr Quatro

06-06-20, 06:39 PM

Which has also been taught to venerate its military and after 911 its police, everyone wants to be a soldier.

Maybe we've become a warrior nation.

Now we have Generals publicly criticizing the civilian Commander in Chief. That IMO is the most scariest part of all of this. A soft military coup.

I almost think it is anti-American for an ex-general ( perhaps they are like the POTUS always a general) to talk bad about the President. Generals can't do it in war time while serving the USA, but they can vent their view afterwards? :hmmm:

Calm down, this isn't your government.

Come on sky your really hurting on this one ... your cruising for a bruisng. I appreciate all of your help on staying off grid amid a currency crises coming, but on American politics you suck :yep:

Skybird, this might be time to seek professional help.

When two out of three agree don't forget to ask August too :haha:

By how it behaved especially towards Germany in the past three years I could swear it does not know that.

You must of heard by now that President Trump has ordered 10,000 troops to leave Germany without asking NATO :o

I just woke up from a nap of watching the protesters from one end of this country to the other end and still no memorials for the cops shot in the back of the head ... I guess that's okay cause he was a cop. :oops:

Then I get on my favorite forum GT and see this crap going on :hmmm:

August

06-06-20, 07:54 PM

While Defending Rioters, The Media Ignores Slain Black Police Officers (https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/05/while-defending-rioters-the-media-ignores-slain-black-police-officers/)

Violence directed at cops is being ignored, and innocent victims aren't having their stories told when it won't fit the media's narrative. It has to end.
Two terrible things just happened only days apart. In Oakland, during anti-police protests outside of a federal courthouse, federal protective service officer Dave Patrick Underwood was killed in a drive-by (https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/federal-protective-service-officer-killed-another-injured-in-shooting-amid-protests-in-oakland/) shooting that was targeted at the police. Another officer was shot but survived.
The killing of Underwood, a black American, has only appeared in a few national outlets—one of which was the Wall Street Journal (https://www.wsj.com/articles/dave-patrick-underwood-rip-11591054196). Cable news outlets CNN and MSNBC, meanwhile, appear to have completely ignored Underwood’s killing. At best, they glossed over it.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/05/while-defending-rioters-the-media-ignores-slain-black-police-officers/

Cybermat47

06-06-20, 11:05 PM

I almost think it is anti-American for an ex-general ( perhaps they are like the POTUS always a general) to talk bad about the President. Generals can't do it in war time while serving the USA, but they can vent their view afterwards? :hmmm:

So Americans who served America in order to protect, among other things, the 1st Amendment, are unpatriotic if they exercise their 1st Amendment rights after they retire?

Cybermat47

06-06-20, 11:11 PM

What gave them the right to condemn and openly criticize a duly elected official and their Commander in Chief?

Trump was never Allen’s commander in chief, as Allen resigned during the Obama administration, in 2013 to be exact.

Mattis also resigned from the Marines during Obama’s fourth year in office, and served as Secretary of Defence under Trump until 2019.

So, with both men now firmly out of the military chain of command, Trump is no longer their commander in chief, and their right to criticise him comes from the 1st Amendment.

Onkel Neal

06-06-20, 11:56 PM

https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/05/while-defending-rioters-the-media-ignores-slain-black-police-officers/

Yep, with everyone falling all over themselves getting on this bandwagon, they sure don't have time to address the lives destroyed and ended in these riots. Free stuff!

And these idiots want to abolish the police entirely. Be careful what you ask for...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8395687/Minneapolis-Mayor-BOOED-protest-refusing-defund-citys-police.html

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey has been booed out of a Black Lives Matter demonstration after refusing to defund the city's police department - as Rep. Ilhan Omar calls for it to be disbanded.

Jacob Frey, we have a yes or no question,' a woman leading the protest asked, prompting cheers from the crowd. 'Yes or no, will you commit to defunding the Minneapolis Police Department?'

The woman then states that protesters want 'no more police' and reminded them that Frey's response should be considered ahead of the city's mayoral election next year.

'And if he says no, guess what the ******* we're going to do next year?' the woman asks the cheering crowd.

The woman then demands the mayor leave after he refuses their request.

'Alright, get the ******* out of here! Bye!' the woman says.

Ok, go ahead and pull all the police out of Minneapolis if that's what you want. But set up a perimeter around the city and don't let anyone out.

Skybird

06-07-20, 06:34 AM

You must of heard by now that President Trump has ordered 10,000 troops to leave Germany without asking NATO :o

As a matter of fact this was coming since long, was known that it was intended sooner or later. Its just that the way it is done now - without a single word told to the Germans - is what the way it gets done now is about: tit-for-tat. Trump did want to have a G7 summit, then he canclled it, then he wanted it again and brinbg Putin (who is under European sanctions) to the table as well, and Merkel said we have a pandmeic raging, and Trump loves to ignores pandemics, and he took it queer that Merkel refused to come to his summit (which for Trump is nothign else but a publicity stunt for his eleciton campaign to distratc form the messy crisis managament of his). The angr ylittle boy did not get what he wanted and aunt Angie refused to play according to his screenplay, and so he sneaks into her back and kicks her from behind. Trumponomics at their usual standard.

Ameicna and German commentators agree that trump here again wills to shoot america in tis own foot, because the US troops are no longe rin germany to "protect" it, but becasue of original own Americna interest (logistics, intel node, temrinal for operaitons in africa, Middle East and transportaiton to the East). German sympathy for Americ ahas colled trmeendously int he apst three years, and it is only some regional jobs that form an interest to have the troops still here. Whats more, a treaty exists that bans NATO from moving more troops more eastward. If parts of these troops indeed end up not going home but being sent to Poland, Russia will ract by ignoring its share in that treaty as well. Then Trump has successfully sacked another treaty for his collection.

Thank God we finally got rid of his alter ego Grenell as ambassador, a diplomatic nightmare of maximum proportions. Imperial arrogance meets impertinent interference, He acted as if he were sort of an American vicegerent in an occupied Germany after the war. Zero diplomatic instict, but a huge pride in kicking doors in instead of knocking. But he once complained about never having had a real chance to arrive due to German frostiness? Look in the mirror, stupid. With your behaviour you cannot expect doors opening in a warm welcome. Trump planted him as bomb anyway, I suppose, to piss the Germans as much as possible.

There are many more things. North Stream 2. Snowden's relevations on to what degree the US spies on literally everybody (no limits). Lets stop here.

August

06-07-20, 09:14 AM

As a matter of fact this was coming since long, was known that it was intended sooner or later. Its just that the way it is done now - without a single word told to the Germans

So you knew that it was going to happen but now you're claiming that you weren't notified at all. Well our troops are scheduled to leave in September so you're getting three whole months notification. Maybe you'll pay attention this time.

Skybird

06-07-20, 10:22 AM

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/trumps-praesidentschaft/amerikanischer-polizeichef-wir-sind-keine-krieger-wir-sind-beschuetzer-16803568.html

In this interview, the police chief of of Bend in Oregon confirms that the trainign to become polcie officer lasts - 17 weeks. He expresses anger and sadness at the bad training of the poplice officers in the video, saiyng that to him they simply did not know well enough what to do, and he traces that back to being not trained well enough. He identifies a systematic failure in police training, lakcing funds not allowing regular retraining, and criticises the trend for a general military style in the police.

9 weeks. 11 weeks, 17 weeks. That just does not cut it. There must be reasons why other countries take years to train their police officers.

How is it in other places? Are you looking for the strong man there?

That is the third problem. The culture of the American police force. Five years ago we started to change our culture in Bend. Away from this researched warrior mentality. This ideal of war came into our police culture around the mid-2000s.

Where did it come from?

If you ask me: From a man named Colonel Grossmann.

He is a psychologist from the West Point Military Academy.

He is very intelligent, very popular. I was in his seminars. He teaches the warrior's mindset: "No matter what happens, you have to come back to your family in the evening." A very, very interesting, unique perspective. I'm not against everything he teaches because I think police officers must actually be warriors when necessary. After that, however, they must become civil servants again. This warrior mentality permeated our entire profession. You could see Colonel Grossmann quotes on colleagues' lockers. Colleagues were heard talking about him. He knows well how to survive a fire fight, how to fight for his life. But that can only be a perspective and not the only one. But it did. We have to get away from it today and say: We are not warriors. We are protectors. There is resistance to this, but it is slowly taking hold. We are a decade or two away from eliminating the grievances.