Video emerges of Minneapolis police killing a citizen - - Riots

[Texas Red]

I'm just glad that the violence and riots aren't spilling into our town. Our town is one of the safest in Indiana.

I think that everyone here who lives in the US is scared right now, even I am!
This is the result of a broken Political system and a broken society. We need to add more rules to the Constitution or whatever so the president can't be like Trump is today.
We should have more precautions and teach Cops to stop something dangerous that another cop is doing, not stand by, and watch.

I sincerely hope that these times end in the next year or two.

Yep, with everyone falling all over themselves getting on this bandwagon, they sure don't have time to address the lives destroyed and ended in these riots. Free stuff!

And these idiots want to abolish the police entirely. Be careful what you ask for...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8395687/Minneapolis-Mayor-BOOED-protest-refusing-defund-citys-police.html



Ok, go ahead and pull all the police out of Minneapolis if that's what you want. But set up a perimeter around the city and don't let anyone out.

If they want no police, and the Police Department in Minneapolis is disbanded, the city could fall to Anarchy with crime running rampant.

[mapuc]

I'm not good in guessing.

What do you think will be the outcome from all these massive demonstration in your cities ?

Something good or maybe something worse ?

Markus

[Texas Red]

I think both a negative and positive impact will come from this.

Positive because change will come and people of all color and all gender will be treated fairly and without hostility. Also, that PITA Trump will lose the election, and ~Hopefully, ~ a good leader will come.

Negative because this could spring Coronavirus up again, even though the COVID cases are going down in 28 states, it could spike again and places like New York and Minneapolis will become hotspots for the virus.

I believe that the demonstrations are justified and this will lead to change in the nationwide Police departments and other departments. But the killing and other stuff are not justified IMO, killing someone is never justified.
In our city, there has yet to be any violence or crimes, but in the towns closest to us, there is violence and protests.

https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/gallery-protesters-police-clash-at-southlake-mall/collection_c4382c41-6d36-5c7e-b7ee-74e7b0bd0703.html#1

This happened a week ago.

[August]

Positive because change will come and people of all color and all gender will be treated fairly and without hostility. Also, that PITA Trump will lose the election, and ~Hopefully, ~ a good leader will come.



A good leader will come? :har: You can't be talking about old Joe. I'll bet you right now that if he is elected we will be involved in another military excursion within two years and absolutely nothing will be done about your social justice causes. The Deep State does not abide with challenges to it's omnipotent authority and it's Military Industrial Complex will demand more targets for their shiny new weapons. They are only pandering to you now to regain power. Once they do they will come down a lot harder than Trump ever threatened to do.


https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/trump-tweet-meme-1.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1

[Jeff-Groves]

August,
Do you remember being that young and dumb enough to believe that same stuff?
:har:

Yeah. I remember all the years and riots.
Pretty much resulted in nothing!

[August]

August,
Do you remember being that young and dumb enough to believe that same stuff?
:har:

Yeah. I remember all the years and riots.
Pretty much resulted in nothing!


Yeah it would almost be worth letting the Dems back into power just to see them let down another generation.

[Skybird]

.

https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/2020-06-05.CBM%20JR%20SFL%20GEC%20EHN%20to%20DOJ%20re%20DC %20Policing.pdf

https://p5.focus.de/img/fotos/origs12075474/9792325181-w630-h420-o-q75-p5/geheimpolizei3.jpg

Little green men in the streets of Wahsington. Though this time probably not Putin's, but Trump's.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/us/politics/unidentified-police-protests.html


.

[August]

.

https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/2020-06-05.CBM%20JR%20SFL%20GEC%20EHN%20to%20DOJ%20re%20DC %20Policing.pdf

https://p5.focus.de/img/fotos/origs12075474/9792325181-w630-h420-o-q75-p5/geheimpolizei3.jpg

Little green men in the streets of Wahsington. Though this time probably not Putin's, but Trump's.
.


You have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about as usual Skybird. Those are US Marshals.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/thmb/Sa0UBIp_unsFOQbuKXWB9h55F1Y=/950x0/filters:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/us-marshal-2164512_Final3-35470bf9be7f49218b1fc7bc3d8c9b2c.PNG

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah it would almost be worth letting the Dems back into power just to see them let down another generation.

Well, if you think about it, Dems have been in power in all these cities that are self-destructing. Been in power for decades, right?

https://pics.me.me/youmight-not-be-able-to-guess-which-american-ghetto-thisis-30537079.png

As my friend Kevin Williamson pointed out:

The progressives — Pat Brown and the rest — thought they had the answers back in the 1960s. And they have had almost exclusive political control over cities such as Minneapolis for decades. There isn’t a single Republican on the Minneapolis city council and hasn’t been for decades. It is remarkable to see Democrats strutting around saying, “See, we were right all along!” against the background of a catastrophe that happened on their watch. This is not a petty partisan point — it raises a real question: If progressives know what’s good for cities such as Minneapolis, why have they done such a poor job governing them?

Cities such as New York are extremely dependent upon a small number of very wealthy taxpayers — hooray for that progressive tax code. Rich people have options. If they go seeking safe haven, they take their tax dollars with them, which degrades municipal services and governance, which gives the middle class an incentive to move, at least to the suburbs. That’s what happened in American cities after the riots of the 1960s, and it wasn’t just old-line WASPs moving out: Detroit’s black middle class largely left the city, as did much of Washington’s. Minneapolis’s Jewish neighborhoods were left behind by Jewish residents (the riots there in 1967 had a distinctly anti-Jewish aspect), and Philadelphia’s white-ethnic immigrant communities got over the city limit as fast as they could — which turned out to be pretty fast. The people who were left behind were largely black and mostly poor.



https://thefederalistpapers.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/imageedit_380_5026009410-1.jpg

[Cybermat47]

Yeah, the Democrats are pretty inept as far as centre-right parties go. Perhaps what America needs is a centre-left party along the lines of the ALP. That way there wouldn’t just be the Republicans and the watered-down Republicans. Because it seems like the Democrats are just trying to be a right-wing party that appeals to the left-wing, and that’s just stupid.

[August]

Yeah, the Democrats are pretty inept as far as centre-right parties go. Perhaps what America needs is a left-wing party along the lines of the ALP. That way there wouldn’t just be the Republicans and the watered-down Republicans.


Just the way you spell center tells me that your center and my center are two very different political points. It seems the centre spelling group tends to be far more Bolshevik than us center spelling types. :)

[Cybermat47]

Just the way you spell center tells me that your center and my center are two very different political points. It seems the centre spelling group tends to be far more Bolshevik than us center spelling types. :)

You should apologise to all the tankies who keep calling me an American imperialist pawn right now :O:

[Jimbuna]

Just the way you spell center tells me that your center and my center are two very different political points.


Being Australian means he is spelling it the same way as in the UK which to some is the correct way.

[Catfish]

A good leader will come? :har: [...] if he is elected we will be involved in another military excursion within two years and absolutely nothing will be done about your social justice causes.
The Deep State does not abide with challenges to it's omnipotent authority and it's Military Industrial Complex will demand more targets for their shiny new weapons. They are only pandering to you now to regain power. Once they do they will come down a lot harder than Trump ever threatened to do.
Dumb and dumber. "Social justice causes" will not be cleared by Trump, this is for sure.

And the "deep state" is a left wing conspiracy that wants to build more weapons and go to war? Imperialism and weapon building is of course so typical "left wing" :haha:
And Trump stands between them and the good brave citizen.
You really have to read this to see what some people believe.

[mapuc]

I myself have problems believing in this deep state theory.

When this is said one may wonder who's really in charged when poor gets poorer and rich gets richer whoever have been in charge.

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

https://s3.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20200607&t=2&i=1521428817&w=780&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=2020-06-07T201017Z_15694_MRPRC2G4H9061BN_RTRMADP_0_MINNEAP OLIS-POLICE-PROTESTS-BRITAIN

[Cybermat47]

-snip-

Well, nothing new there. Leopold Amery, a contemporary of Churchill, fellow member of the Conservative Party and Secretary of State for India and Burma, wrote that “on the subject of India, Winston is not quite sane”, even going as far as to compare him to Hitler, as he reportedly called the Indians "a beastly people with a beastly religion".

In fact, he went as far as to say that “I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place”.

Does any of this change what Churchill achieved in WWII? No. All it does is present a better picture of a man who was as complicated and as contradictory as everyone else is.

[u crank]

And the "deep state" is a left wing conspiracy that wants to build more weapons and go to war? Imperialism and weapon building is of course so typical "left wing" :haha:

I don't believe that the "deep state/ administrative state/ military industrial complex" has any political allegiance. This is easly seen in the fact that it has survived and flourished under both Republican and Democrat administrations.

As to imperialism and weapon building with regards to the USA ...same aurgument as above.

[Mr Quatro]

The 'Deep State is too deep for me to understand'

Perhaps we could talk about the obvious right in front of us ... the deep deception of the left wing/radical's trying to regain control of our conservative/right wing country in just five (5) more months. :yep:

[mapuc]

The little remnant of respect I had towards those demonstrating has now disappeared.

Read in Swedish news that certain protesters in Gothenburg had both looted and smashed a moving car with furniture.

According to main stream media, this moving car was looted by protesters.

According to an alt-right newspaper, dark-skinned people had done this. There were pictures of the incident in this article.

Whether it was black, white or a mixture who have done this, it is a completely unforgivable behavior and my little respect are now gone.

Markus

[Col7777]

This is a clip from a UK breakfast show, the guy Piers Morgan I can't stand at the best of times, he constantly interrupts people as they are trying to talk.

Anyway I'm sure you will find this short clip interesting:

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1292750/Piers-morgan-itv-gmb-george-floyd-protests-Earl-Gray-Thomas-lane


Col.

[Catfish]

The little remnant of respect I had towards those demonstrating has now disappeared. [...]
Please. Nothing justifies looting and burning, this is not a peaceful demonstration nor does it help anyone. But if thousands of peaceful people want to set a sign against police brutality and racial hate (and do not tell me this does not exist), it only needs 2-5 people looting to make them all look bad.
And guess what the media will prefer to report - a peaceful domonstration of 995 or the criminal action of 5 of them?

[mapuc]

Please. Nothing justifies looting and burning, this is not a peaceful demonstration nor does it help anyone. But if thousands of peaceful people want to set a sign against police brutality and racial hate (and do not tell me this does not exist), it only needs 2-5 people looting to make them all look bad.
And guess what the media will prefer to report - a peaceful domonstration of 995 or the criminal action of 5 of them?

I was waiting a response before posting the next story, which have taken place here in Denmark.

BLM had announced a demonstration in Copenhagen. Before this demonstration, which was yesterday, the BLM organization in Denmark had put up special guidelines for white who wanted to take part in the demonstration as support.

I have been searching for hours to find an English version of the Story, without any luck.

So I use translate
(There are some sentence who sounds grammatically wrong I know, but I could not find or come up with the correct sentence)

From Danish BT

"
Please move. Move. White people - stand here.

This is what Bwalya Sørensen, spokesperson for Black Lives Matter Denmark, said in front of Christiansborg on Sunday afternoon.

Before that, thousands of people had marched through the streets of Copenhagen in a common battle against racism, and here the same message had sounded from the organizer

We want 'black people' up front by the banners. We know there has been outrage, but we don't care, 'Bwalya Sørensen tells B.T. on Sunday's march.

Prior to the demonstration, similar special requirements for white people could be read on Black Lives Matter Denmark's Instagram, and along with the above episodes, it has caused debate and former TV host Jeppe Søe to speak up

In a Facebook post, he shares a number of screenshots from the aforementioned Instagram, in which Black Lives Matter Denmark, prior to Sunday's demonstration, advises white people not to talk to the press, not to initiate combat calls and not shout at all combat calls.

I am deeply appalled and I find it very outspoken. I am very much in favor of this case, and if I had not lived in Aalborg and there was a corona, then I would have liked for a demonstration, but not if I had read that other rules apply to white people. It just speaks against the case, 'says Jeppe Søe to B.T.

There are about 10 so-called Instagram stories from Black Lives Matter Denmark, beginning with the text 'protest etiquette for white people'.

Then there are a number of points. For example, one of them reads:
'Some cries are not for you. 'Hands up don't shoot'. 'I can't breathe'. Not everything is for white people - not even those who have shown up in solidarity. Being bullied and shot is not a thing that happens to white people, just as much as it does to black people, 'it says

Under another point, Black Lives Matter Denmark writes that 'the press is often out for protests and that they are often more comfortable talking to white people', and this is especially a statement that gets Jeppe Søe up in the red field .

“It is deeply appalling that an organization can get itself into writing something like this. It is not at all a picture I can recognize, nor do I imagine that many journalists in Denmark have it that way. What the hell are they imagining, 'he says.

In fact, they seems to be speaking against their own case when making special rules and separating white and black people in the demonstrations.

“The beautiful thing is that we stand together globally now, and it has also occurred to many white people that it is enough now. Then you should embrace and pay homage to the fact that in the front chain you are completely indifferent to the color, ”says Jeppe Søe.

To B.T, Bwalya Sørensen says if people don't like the music they can stay away

"If you are unhappy and do not understand that black people will stand side by side, then you must stay home. It's white supremacy, ”she emphasizes.

But can you understand the argument that you go against your own cause when you gather all races for a big demonstration, but then try to separate them during the march?

"Not at all," the spokesperson says.
A total of 15,000 people were gathered in front of the US embassy in Østerbro on Sunday to walk together towards Christiansborg Palace Square.
"

It have created some outrage here in Denmark. Rumours says there are members from this BLM who are disappointed on their leader.

Edit
As a leader of a demonstration, you have not only responsibility but also obligation.
If a person can't handle these two things then they shouldn't put up a demonstration.

From memory.

Some years back, in fact several years ago.
There were a demonstration in either Denmark or Sweden.
The leader and his inner group had made up plans for eventualities there may
be some anarchist among the demonstrators and these should be neutralized before they
start damaging things or people.
If my memory doesn't play tricks on me. I remember how some demonstrator was surrounded by
8-10 other demonstrators when they started to take a violent detour from the demonstration.
after a while a little group of men and women left the demonstration.

So here is where these leaders have failed.

End edit

Markus

[Rockstar]

This is a clip from a UK breakfast show, the guy Piers Morgan I can't stand at the best of times, he constantly interrupts people as they are trying to talk.

Anyway I'm sure you will find this short clip interesting:

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1292750/Piers-morgan-itv-gmb-george-floyd-protests-Earl-Gray-Thomas-lane


Col.




When asked a question about the reason for pulling a gun. The lawyer gave a very reasonable answer as to why. But it seems to me something was said before the video started that got the lawyer upset. Controversy sells.

[August]

And the "deep state" is a left wing conspiracy that wants to build more weapons and go to war? Imperialism and weapon building is of course so typical "left wing" :haha:

No, Catfish, as has been said repeatedly the Deep State is neither left or right but it will support any side that advances their power.

Those Generals whose opinions you suddenly value want to see us continue to be the worlds policemen and they are pissed that Trump does not share that vision.

[mapuc]

I guess you have heard the story about Minneapolis will dismantle/abolish their police force.

I found two version of this story

(I will not use quote in these two links)

First a well known alt-right news page

https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06/07/minneapolis-city-council-promises-to-abolish-the-police-police-free-future/?fbclid=IwAR359yK1pjqu9PG6VxNT_zNbC_-h1nKdSN-mgxnN4uiqEcSJr1aH_HWOr4M

And then from a more left wing news page

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/minneapolis-city-council-police-department-dismantle

So it's up the ordinary people to decide which article they believe in.

I trust The Guardian more than I trust Breitbart.

Markus

[MaDef]

I trust The Guardian more than I trust Breitbart.Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

[Bilge_Rat]

I guess you have heard the story about Minneapolis will dismantle/abolish their police force.

I found two version of this story

(I will not use quote in these two links)

First a well known alt-right news page

https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06/07/minneapolis-city-council-promises-to-abolish-the-police-police-free-future/?fbclid=IwAR359yK1pjqu9PG6VxNT_zNbC_-h1nKdSN-mgxnN4uiqEcSJr1aH_HWOr4M

And then from a more left wing news page

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/minneapolis-city-council-police-department-dismantle

So it's up the ordinary people to decide which article they believe in.

I trust The Guardian more than I trust Breitbart.

Markus

You would have to explain what you mean, I do not see differences between the two articles, both report the same facts, but the Guardian article adds more analysis.

The Breitbart article basically just reprints an article which appeared in the Minneapolis Star Tribune which is a traditional liberal newspaper.

What do you have against the Minneapolis Star Tribune?

If you guys want to make an argument that Breitbart is some kind of Alt-Right propaganda platform, you would have to come up with a better example. :ping:

[Skybird]

You would have to explain what you mean, I do not see differences between the two articles, both report the same facts, but the Guardian article adds more analysis.

The Breitbart article basically just reprints an article which appeared in the Minneapolis Star Tribune which is a traditional liberal newspaper.

What do you have against the Minneapolis Star Tribune?

If you guys want to make an argument that Breitbart is some kind of Alt-Right propaganda platform, you would have to come up with a better example. :ping:
^Thats why I prefer in such cases to quote an article by its original source, if I found it as a requote first. Often the original source is linked in the requote, else it most often can be easily found via Google, or from the main page of the original source. Avoids misunderstandings. Its not that I really frequently read all the various papers from which I may quote something - I traced it back already.



Just saying.

[mapuc]

You would have to explain what you mean, I do not see differences between the two articles, both report the same facts, but the Guardian article adds more analysis.

The Breitbart article basically just reprints an article which appeared in the Minneapolis Star Tribune which is a traditional liberal newspaper.

What do you have against the Minneapolis Star Tribune?

If you guys want to make an argument that Breitbart is some kind of Alt-Right propaganda platform, you would have to come up with a better example. :ping:

I really don't know where to start my long explanation on why I made a mistake here.

Let begin with Breitbart, which I have known for years and have read a lot of their stories.

In every if not almost every story they have put up on their homepage there have been some altering with the original story
Each time I read one of their stories I search for an alternative version of it.

About my comment.

First time I heard about the Minneapolis council and their plans on the future of their police force was in the news at noon on Danish news channel and late in a Danish article.

In the news and in this Danish article it said the council will rearrange the police in the city.

Later in the evening I saw a friend posting an article from Breitbart
I read the first paragraph
"A veto-proof majority of the Democrat-dominated Minneapolis City Council announced Sunday that it had bowed to Black Lives Matter protesters’ demands to abolish the police, promising the demonstration a “police-free future.”

When reading those words I said to myself...this can't be right the words which was said in the Danish news and in this Danish article told a different story.

So I made a search for a different approach to this story and found The Guardian.

I should have read the entire article in both article.

I was 100 % convinced by reading the first paragraph in Breitbart that they once again had altered with the truth.

So one again I'm sorry for my mistake.

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

Don't take it personally Mapuc. You can find articles where Breitbart has a very skewed view of events. I have seen many, but then you can say the same thing about many articles in CNN, The Guardian, etc., just those two articles were not good examples.

[August]

Yet another liberal celebrity advocating violence:



Tom Arnold suggests people exercise Second Amendment rights against unmarked police in Washington D.C.
Tom Arnold (https://www.foxnews.com/category/entertainment/celebrity-news) called for “liberal men” to exercise their Second Amendment (https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/personal-freedoms/second-amendment) rights on unmarked law enforcement in Washington D.C. (https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/washington-dc)
The actor took to Twitter to encourage violence from people protesting police brutality in the wake of the death of George Floyd (https://www.foxnews.com/category/person/george-floyd), who died May 25 in police custody in Minneapolis, Minn. when Officer Derek Chauvin (https://www.foxnews.com/us/derek-chauvin-transported-to-maximum-security-prison-reports) knelt on his neck for more than eight minutes. In response to reports that President Trump (https://www.foxnews.com/category/person/donald-trump) has dispatched additional federal law enforcement in riot gear without visible badges or name identification, Arnold suggested that liberals in D.C. arm themselves.
“2nd Amendment is for everyone including black men with long guns but it's f---ing time for us white liberal men to stand up for our brothers & sisters. Borrow our dad's hunting rifles & go nose to nose with Trump’s gang of misfit tools. Let's do it,” he wrote on Twitter (https://twitter.com/TomArnold/status/1269455538120568832).




https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/tom-arnold-exercise-second-amendment-against-unmarked-police-washington-dc

[Jeff-Groves]

And people wonder why I bought a Ballistic Vest.
:nope:

[Aktungbby]

And people wonder why I bought a Ballistic Vest.
:nope:...and got another headache!:yep:

[August]

And people wonder why I bought a Ballistic Vest.
:nope:


While they are still legal to own.


https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/4568/text?r=2&s=1

[Jeff-Groves]

DAMN IT!
Now I need to build another hide!
:o

But I do fall under this...
(3) enhanced body armor that was lawfully possessed by any person at any time before the date this section takes effect.

Also. One can buy all the Type II they want.
Which is easy to upgrade to Type III or Type IV given the Type II you have.

[Jimbuna]

https://s3.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20200607&t=2&i=1521428817&w=780&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=2020-06-07T201017Z_15694_MRPRC2G4H9061BN_RTRMADP_0_MINNEAP OLIS-POLICE-PROTESTS-BRITAIN

The daft incident in Bristol with the Edward Colston statue and a few more like the example above fails to recognise the historical context. In Bristol we have a statue of a famous city father who did much good work for the community that was destroyed due to his record as a slave trader. His trade - amongst others - was to transport slaves during a period when slavery was legal and when it was a world wide institution. Incidentally who sold the slaves to be transported? Black slavers did. I say this not because I do not abhor the trade that was slavery but simply to note that we are looking at things from a 20th Century context and then applying our current value system to a period that was totally different. Also where does this end? I have read that some of these protestors now want to remove Nelson from his column because at one point he was known to have supported the slave trade. - Well of course he did because in 17th and 18th Century Britain it was rare to find someone - regardless of class who did not. So stop trying to eradicate a history simply because it does not follow our current moral view point. We have a history where lessons can be learned from a history that we can both dislike and be proud of but do not let us destroy it or try to eradicate it. Finally, as far as the slave trade was concerned lets not forget that there was at least as many black slavers as there were white slavers so it is far to simplistic to paint this as a question of white against black.

[Tchocky]

I don't know, Jim.

I'm fairly sure there were plenty of people at the time who considered slavery to be wrong "in the context of the time".

In fact we know there were.

This guy bought and sold them.

Doesn't say that on his statue, though.

I wonder why.

[Cybermat47]

I don't know, Jim.

I'm fairly sure there were plenty of people at the time who considered slavery to be wrong "in the context of the time".

In fact we know there were.

This guy bought and sold them.

Doesn't say that on his statue, though.

I wonder why.

Yeah, they should at least put on the statue that he sold slaves. It’s pretty revisionist not to.

[Jimbuna]

The point I'm trying to make is there was right and wrong on both sides back in the day and to put it as simplistically as black versus white today is not fully correct.

[Commander Wallace]

I was working on something with the television on and caught an interview with various Police chiefs and authorities around the U.S on I believe, CNN. It seems the 4 officers indicted in the murder of George Floyd are not presenting a united front. Quite the contrary, Former officers Kiernan Lane, Alexander Kueng have placed the blame on Derek Chauvin while Tou Thao has been cooperating with authorities before he was indicted. I seriously doubt this will help as with video evidence, they hardly need the cooperation of the other 3.

Apparently, the other 3 and their attorney's feel it's in their best interest to throw " Chauvin under the bus. " The attorney's for Kiernan Lane, Alexander Kueng have said their clients were rookies and deferred to Chauvin, their training officer. I don't blame defense attorneys from grasping at straws but i think they will find, " that dog won't hunt. " regarding this argument. Apparently these officers and their attorney's don't understand that the standard of what any reasonable officer would do in their place. It hardly takes 4 men to hold down an already restrained man and their arguments in court will have a very uphill battle.

The Police Chiefs all said in unison if officers don't know right from wrong, they shouldn't be police officers. Chauvin is all of 150lbs and 5'10. If the other officers involved are that much of a coward to be afraid of Chauvin, what might they do against more physically imposing people ?


https://abcnews.go.com/US/officers-charged-floyds-death-make-1st-court-appearance/story?id=71066710


In Minneapolis, efforts are underway to abolish the police force there and to do something about it's union as well. The idea is to move them in social work. I think this is one of the most stupid ideas I have ever heard of. Efforts are underway in other parts of the country to defund police agencies as well. Gun shops owners report people are buying firearms in such numbers as there are shortages in various models.


https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/05/minneapolis-politicians-rally-around-abolishing-the-police-department/


I thought this might be as good a time as any to ask our Subsim members what ideas they might have of any reorganization. This would include our members from other countries and to see what works in their respective countries. I will list some possibilities.

1) an oversight board would have to be put into places around the country where people's legitimate complaints are heard. Obviously, the police can't be trusted to do their own investigations as the complaints against Chavin before the death of Floyd, has shown. These boards would need to at the local and regional levels. If People's civil rights have been violated, refer the evidence over to the federal Govt. for prosecution. There would also have to be oversight of the boards themselves with the appropriate checks and balances for obvious reasons.


2) Video camera's worn by the police or in their cars would have to run continuously. Any efforts to disable them by officers would automatically result in criminal charges being filed . Further, make it a crime for officers to take recording devices from citizens or to order them to turn them off. It makes good sense for anyone with recording devices in their cars, phones, etc to have the recorded videos uploaded to a cloud server so any officer seizing a recording device can't erase or destroy film footage.

3) Scotus would have to revoke privileges enjoyed by officers and public officials regarding immunity from their criminal actions. This decision is criminal in itself and needs to be removed, post haste. This would include allowing police to seize money from it's citizens under the asset forfeiture law. It's essentially a license for police officers to steal your money and or property without anything in the way of due process. It's also behind the " policing for profit " tactics officers utilize now.

4) Initiate websites and federal and local registries of those officers with criminal complaints against them. This would have to include impartial investigation NOT to be done by their respective departments of internal affairs units.

5) demilitarize police forces, banning surplus military equipment transfers to police forces on a local level as they can't be trusted to use them. If special situations arise, units like SWAT can then be utilized with the proper training in the use of tactics and specialized military grade weapons.

6) Scrutiny as to the soundness of using former military members as police officers. This would also include an enhanced battery of mental fitness tests for anyone aspiring to the police academy. Police officers from a military background tend to view their own citizens as the enemy and the public by and large feel the same way about their respective police forces. It won't end well for the police forces if this practice continues.

7) Colleges and trade schools tuition's need to brought under control as well. Their rising tuition rates far outpace inflation. This would give intelligent and well motivated young people a fighting chance to better their lives through education. Our country's survival literally depends on an educated work force and it's just the right thing to do.

Benjamin Carson is a black man. He was also a brilliant Pediatric Neurosurgeon at John's Hopkins and did the first successful Siamese twins separation. Patrick and Benjamin Binder were conjoined twins, joined at the head, born in Germany in early 1987, and separated at Johns Hopkins Hospital on September 7, 1987. Think of how many lives Benjamin Carson has saved and what might have happened if Benjamin had not been able to overcome everything to be the great Physician that he is.


https://www.foxnews.com/health/ben-carson-performed-historic-conjoined-twin-separation-surgery-30-years-ago

[Mr Quatro]

Your asking us (subsim) for advice?

Simple adjustment Commander Wallace is to give the police more money to weed out the bad cops with better training and more counseling.

The mayor needs to tell the police who to protect ... What are your priorities?

Big business or small business or the public?

More visiable protection day and night.

That man had the cops called on him for passing a phony $20 bill ... give me a break. Didn't they have security camera's ... call the ATF or the Treasury Department :yep:

[Commander Wallace]

Your asking us (subsim) for advice?

Simple adjustment Commander Wallace is to give the police more money to weed out the bad cops with better training and more counseling.

The mayor needs to tell the police who to protect ... What are your priorities?

Big business or small business or the public?

More visiable protection day and night.

That man had the cops called on him for passing a phony $20 bill ... give me a break. Didn't they have security camera's ... call the ATF or the Treasury Department :yep:


I'm asking for intelligent opinions, not advice. :) Why not Subsim ? There are some pretty sharp people here. :yep: In fact, Did George Floyd know that the alleged Bill was a forgery ? Where did this alleged forged bill go, anyway ? When was the last time you got change and looked to see if your change contained a forged or counterfeit bill ? We all could have unknowingly passed a counterfeit bill. As you said, if the bill was in fact phony, arrest and charge Floyd and allow him dues process to face charges. The state or federal government has the burden of proof in criminal cases

[Aktungbby]

The point I'm trying to make is there was right and wrong on both sides back in the day and to put it as simplistically as black versus white today is not fully correct.

I have read that some of these protestors now want to remove Nelson from his column because at one point he was known to have supported the slave trade.Well of course he did because in 17th and 18th Century Britain it was rare to find someone - regardless of class who did not. So stop trying to eradicate a history simply because it does not follow our current moral view point. We have a history where lessons can be learned from a history that we can both dislike and be proud of but do not let us destroy it or try to eradicate it. :agree: Are we talkin' 'bout slaves for sugar for rum ""triangular trade" here BBY?!!https://i2.wp.com/thefatrumpirate.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/image50.jpg?resize=170%2C300 THey'll have to remove George Washington for distilling whiskey at Mt Vernon with his less-than-hired help first:arrgh!: 'still' made today:https://mtv-main-assets.mountvernon.org/files/callout/card-full/image/dp-20161123_a-00504-low-res.jpg https://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-gardens/distillery/ (https://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-gardens/distillery/) As for tearing down George's monuments and his picture from the World's almighty dollar bill in the name of political coreectness: ...we'll let God handle that chore! :()1: :o https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/11Z9EFrBz6yL1v1S1C3AAef3A38=/1484x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/ASVYZRB2G5FGBKQBARR6GQQV4Y.jpg

[Bilge_Rat]

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause."

-Abraham Lincoln


what about this guy? that speech seems pretty racist by today's standards.

[Buddahaid]

Today's standards are knee jerk overreaction.

[Cybermat47]

Today's standards are knee jerk overreaction.

Knee jerk overreactions are nothing new. There used to be a time when a black person sitting at the front of a bus was scandalous. And IIRC someone got sent to a gulag in Bolshevik Russia for singing I’m Dreaming of a White Christmas during the Civil War.

[Aktungbby]

what about this guy? that speech seems pretty racist by today's standards. Then there's this guy who took the 'Big Bang' theory' to it's highest level to eradicate 'the yellow Peril':doh: According to his own later account, Truman–who was then a judge seeking reelection–paid the KKK’s $10 membership fee on the advice of supporters. Apparently, Truman almost immediately quarreled with the Klan over its vitriolic hatred of Catholics. https://kchistory.org/islandora/object/kchistory%3A101302/datastream/MEDIUM_SIZE/view (https://kchistory.org/islandora/object/kchistory%3A101302/datastream/OBJ/view)
his statue in Athens Greece has already been reviled by commie bastards any way> https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/bQdrtpmt56OFMpCK2NY-DmDNSts=/0x306:3264x2142/720x405/media/img/nj/2013/12/3/the-poor-tortured-bombed/photo-3-1/original.JPG
But here's a monument that really take some rechisellng to eradicate: Stone Mountain Georgia https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Stone_Mountain%2C_the_carving%2C_and_the_Train.jpe g/300px-Stone_Mountain%2C_the_carving%2C_and_the_Train.jpe g (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stone_Mountain,_the_carving,_and_the_Train.jp eg)>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Stone_Mountain_Carving_2.jpg/1280px-Stone_Mountain_Carving_2.jpg http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/flags/confederate-flag-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/confederate.flag-emoticon-3873.html) https://www.kptv.com/u-s-marine-corps-officially-ban-displays-of-confederate-flag/article_1a3c5f5e-bac0-5edf-9d44-0551a585eb4c.html as of 6/6/2020: The United States Marine Corps has officially banned public displays of the Confederate flag starting immediately.

[Cybermat47]

https://www.kptv.com/u-s-marine-corps-officially-ban-displays-of-confederate-flag/article_1a3c5f5e-bac0-5edf-9d44-0551a585eb4c.html

as of 6/6/2020: The United States Marine Corps has officially banned public displays of the Confederate flag starting immediately.

Hey, at least Confederate veterans would be happy that their flag isn’t being appropriated by the “liars, fools, and villains” who swear an oath of allegiance to the USA anymore.

“Registered. That means... swore to be a liar, fool, villain, and [n-word]. Ain’t white anymore. Ain’t honest anymore. Am registered as loyal to the United States, and no honest, honorable, sensible, decent white man can be that.”
- Frank Myers, Confederate cavalryman, writing after swearing an oath of allegiance to the USA postwar

[Onkel Neal]

I'm asking for intelligent opinions, not advice. :) Why not Subsim ? There are some pretty sharp people here. :yep: In fact, Did George Floyd know that the alleged Bill was a forgery ? Where did this alleged forged bill go, anyway ? When was the last time you got change and looked to see if your change contained a forged or counterfeit bill ? We all could have unknowingly passed a counterfeit bill. As you said, if the bill was in fact phony, arrest and charge Floyd and allow him dues process to face charges. The state or federal government has the burden of proof in criminal cases

Very good point. Most people who passed counterfeit currency are not aware of it, it's passed through circulation.

[mapuc]

So the White man have been accused for something which toke place hundreds of years ago.

What about the rest of the human kind.

What about the Islamic countries ?

What about China ?

What about Africa ?

From memory.

From some of the episode of the history of slavery, I saw I seem to recall that these three countries also was in to this business too.

Markus

[Cybermat47]

So the White man have been accused for something which toke place hundreds of years ago.

What about the rest of the human kind.

What about the Islamic countries ?

What about China ?

What about Africa ?

From memory.

From some of the episode of the history of slavery, I saw I seem to recall that these three countries also was in to this business too.

Markus

I’d say it comes from an ignorance of history. Most depictions of slavery just portray the white traders and owners, rather than the Africans who sold their own people into slavery, or the existence of slavery in other cultures.

Ironically, it’s actually a pretty good example of ethnocentrism. “We should talk about the history of slavery, but only the stuff involving people with my skin colour.”

[Mr Quatro]

Your asking us (subsim) for advice?

Simple adjustment Commander Wallace is to give the police more money to weed out the bad cops with better training and more counseling.

The mayor needs to tell the police who to protect ... What are your priorities?

Big business or small business or the public?

More visiable protection day and night.

That man had the cops called on him for passing a phony $20 bill ... give me a break. Didn't they have security camera's ... call the ATF or the Treasury Department :yep:

I'm asking for intelligent opinions, not advice. :) Why not Subsim ? There are some pretty sharp people here. :yep: In fact, Did George Floyd know that the alleged Bill was a forgery ? Where did this alleged forged bill go, anyway ? When was the last time you got change and looked to see if your change contained a forged or counterfeit bill ? We all could have unknowingly passed a counterfeit bill. As you said, if the bill was in fact phony, arrest and charge Floyd and allow him dues process to face charges. The state or federal government has the burden of proof in criminal cases

So your saying that I'm not sharp :oops: I thought my advice did offer intelligent options ... weed out the bad apples don't throw the baby out with the bath water. :yep:

This man George Floyd and the policeman (forgot his name) that put his knee on him worked together as security officer's at a nightclub, right? As I think August said perhaps they were involved in something like drug dealing together at that time. It will all come out at the trial for sure, but the black lives matter won't accept anything negative about Floyd he's a saint now.

The trial won't take place before the election anyway that's for sure ... Did you hear the BLM people? "Let's keep this thing going" :o

All's well with you and I Commander I've been disrespected before :yep:

[em2nought]

Very good point. Most people who passed counterfeit currency are not aware of it, it's passed through circulation.
If Floyd knew it was counterfeit, where did he get it? Where would he be able to find it? Maybe at his place of employment? If he stole it from someone, maybe they weren't happy about it? Maybe they had someone "take care" of the problem. Maybe that someone's @ss was on the line too, or maybe that someone was just a thick brutal dumb@ss. Maybe someone wanted so apparently obvious an act of police brutality to occur? Lots of maybes, not a lot of investigative journalists. Hell, opinion pieces have to follow the one true narrative now for that matter. Differing opinions being allowed to air will get you fired. :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

Yes, they knew each other :yep:


Former co-worker of George Floyd and Derek Chauvin claims they 'bumped heads' in the past

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/former-coworker-george-floyd-derek-chauvin-claims-they-bumped-heads-in-past-071539036.html

On the CBS special, Justice for All hosted by Gayle King, George Floyd’s brother Philonise said he believes Derek Chauvin, the former Minneapolis police officer charged with second-degree murder in Floyd’s death, knew exactly who Floyd was as he pressed his knee into his neck. Not only that, Philonise said he believed it was personal, and he’s not the only one who sees it that way.

Both Floyd and Chauvin used to work security at El Nuevo Rodeo, a nightclub in Minneapolis that was burned to the ground in recent riots. Floyd worked security inside, while Chauvin was paid to sit in his squad car outside the club when he was off-duty. Former co-worker David Pinney said that not only did Floyd and Chauvin know each other, but they had a contentious history.

“They bumped heads,” Pinney said, adding, “It has a lot to do with Derek being extremely aggressive within the club with some of the patrons, which was an issue.” “Is there any doubt in your mind that Derek Chauvin knew George Floyd?” CBS correspondent Jeff Pegues asked. “No, he knew him,” Pinney replied. “How well did he know him?” “I’d say pretty well.”

Chauvin had a history of complaints against him, and the former owner of the club, Maya Santamaria, was not surprised by what she saw in the video, except that it went as far as it did.

“I was not surprised when I initially saw his knee on his neck, to be honest,” Santamaria said. “Because I’ve seen Chauvin do stuff along those lines. What surprised me was that he didn’t stop right away once George was obviously, ya know, saying, ‘OK, OK.’”

Santamaria also believes race was an issue for Chauvin.

[Jeff-Groves]

If your going to erase history?
Why do places like the Nazi death camps remain?

I find that period of History more reprehensible
To erase the past condemns you to repeat the same thing.

At some point all this will be history and how will it be looked upon a 100 years down the road?
Will there be a change that takes the dark road to erase the history?

I say the Civil War statues and such SHOULD remain much as the WWII death camps!
To remind us of how weak We as a Human Race become at times.

[mapuc]

A movie related comment.

I guess you have heard the story that they have removed the classic movie
Gone with the Wind - They classify it as a racist movie.

Markus

[u crank]

What is remarkable about the whole tearing down/defacing monuments is the knowledge that somethings have happened in the past but there is no recognition of everything that has happened in the past.

The world has certainly changed and judging the attitudes and socially accepted norms 100 or 200 years ago by todays standards is a fools game. Today most Western democracies have a new and better view of race, women, homosexuality, the mentally and physically handicaped, the treatment of children and the poor. These changes were accomplished without tearing down any statues. The changes were acomplished by well meaning conscientious citizens who knew that these attitudes and laws were wrong.

We all know that some of these attitudes still persist in society. The question is will they remain when all of the statues are gone?

[Jeff-Groves]

Once the statues are gone?
It's only a matter of time till the next targets are identified.
Mount Rushmore and other places.

Washington's Memorial is kind of a phallic symbol.
Should it be taken down to satisfy the Gays?

And should We destroy Abe's memorial in DC?

I myself don't want the past erased to fit a modern view!
Should the memorial to Pearl Harbor be buried because Japanese are offended?

[Jeff-Groves]

There are things that should remain to shame and remind people.
We will not tolerate this again!
If it hurts your tiny fellings?
Get over it!

[Catfish]

[...] Washington's Memorial [...]
..does not even look like George Washington.

[Jeff-Groves]

..does not even look like George Washington.
Maybe it was based on his penis?
:har:
Having said that? There's alot of theories as to why that structure was built.
It goes from Alien influence to a salute to Ancient Egypt.

[Aktungbby]

Hey, at least Confederate veterans would be happy that their flag isn’t being appropriated by the “liars, fools, and villains” who swear an oath of allegiance to the USA anymore.

“Registered. That means... swore to be a liar, fool, villain, and [n-word]. Ain’t white anymore. Ain’t honest anymore. Am registered as loyal to the United States, and no honest, honorable, sensible, decent white man can be that.”
- Frank Myers, Confederate cavalryman, writing after swearing an oath of allegiance to the USA postwar Well all my young male relations are getting prominent confederate tattoos atop their shaved 'jarheads' to avoid being drafted for WWIII... along with the recruits the recruiters love to target! And I used to occasionally guard the MEPS on Broadway in Oakland! Moreover when we marched as a Civil War reenactment brigade and/or garrisoned Ft. Point for the National Park Svc on national holidays, the officers from the Naval Moffet Station would all stand and salute the colors: federal and Confederate as they passed, back in the '80's. It's officially Gone With the Wind now BBY!

[Jeff-Groves]

Cybermat47,
Being the last Civil War vet died August 2, 1956?
I doubt anyone is around to complain.
And he was a Union Soldier.
Albert Henry Woolson

[vienna]

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause."

-Abraham Lincoln what about this guy? that speech seems pretty racist by today's standards.





First of all, it wasn't a speech; it was a letter Lincoln sent to newspaper editor Horace Greely in response to an editorial Greeley made titled "The Prayer of Twenty Millions", in which Greeley, a fervent Abolitionist, strongly called on Lincoln to fully, and severely, enforce ant-Rebel laws enacted by Congress, including the Confiscation Act, which Lincoln thought too severe and running contrary to the goal of reuniting the nation...

As in so many things of this sort, context is very important; I noticed you left out the last sentence in the paragraph you quoted:


I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.... and it omits the sentence that follows the above paragraph and that closes the letter:


I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

This is the entire letter:



Executive Mansion, Washington, August 22, 1862.

Hon. Horace Greeley: Dear Sir.

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

Yours, A. Lincoln.


What is the context of Lincoln saying: “if I could save the union without freeing any slave I would do it” --

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/32832/what-is-the-context-of-lincoln-saying-if-i-could-save-the-union-without-freein


Context is everything and the quote, as you posted it, sorely lacks context...


This is a link to Horace Greely's "The Prayer of Twenty Millions" editorial that prompted Lincoln's letter in response; it is a bit long and dense, so I chose not to post its entirety here as I did Lincoln's letter; it is worth the read to see exactly to what Lincoln was responding; there are also faint echoes of some of the arguments still being made today...:


"The Prayer of Twenty Millions" --

https://www.americanantiquarian.org/Freedmen/Manuscripts/greeley.html


BTW, the link for the Lincoln letter does have some interesting discussions on the context of the quote and letter...






<O>

[vienna]

Column: The truth about antifa’s secret senior soldiers. Trump is on to us, so I’m spilling the beans. --

https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/rex-huppke/ct-antifa-trump-buffalo-protester-provocateur-oann-police-huppke-20200610-xrwkbhb4kncrvnvgjxbffps2k4-story.html




<O>

[Commander Wallace]

So your saying that I'm not sharp :oops: I thought my advice did offer intelligent options ... weed out the bad apples don't throw the baby out with the bath water. :yep:

This man George Floyd and the policeman (forgot his name) that put his knee on him worked together as security officer's at a nightclub, right? As I think August said perhaps they were involved in something like drug dealing together at that time. It will all come out at the trial for sure, but the black lives matter won't accept anything negative about Floyd he's a saint now.

The trial won't take place before the election anyway that's for sure ... Did you hear the BLM people? "Let's keep this thing going" :o

All's well with you and I Commander I've been disrespected before :yep:


I can see you won't be happy unless you are the cruise director of this little guilt trip you are trying to take me on. :03:

The reality is, when I mentioned sharp people here, I had you and a number of others in mind. I thought perhaps that others might render an opinion regarding possible solutions regarding the death of George Floyd and how to move forward.

It's all good, Mr, Quatro, as are we. :yep:

[MaDef]

You know what's ironic about these protesters pulling down statues because they're offensive? It's the same thing the ISIL did while they had control of Syria & Iraq. Yet one group is praised while the other is condemned for the same acts, and they both use the same reasons as justification. go figure.

[Aktungbby]

Good grief, you think a cop with any intelligence at all would know better than to kill someone this way.Perhaps intelligence had everything to do with it imho. Having seen the video, been trained an used restraint methods myself, doing a carotid artery restraint over a trivial bad $20 dollar bill beef for 8 minutes on a handcuffed man makes no sense on its face alone. The fact that officer Chauvin worked an off duty gig for 17 years at a club where Floyd worked four years, speaks volumes. No officer doesn't know his crew and their backup talents threat assessmentwise in case of serious altercations where alcohol is a factor. I've been there and done this from New Years eve bar festivities to large flea markets and know who to count on...Clearly officer Chauvin would have noticed all members of his security crew especially as distinctive as Mr. Floyd. Ergo, he killed someone he actually knew, ignoring pleas for mercy. Mr Chauvin, currently being divorced, and owning another residence in Florida obviously has a high overhead on his officer's salary. A sure bet: Ms Chauvin won't be collecting on his pension!:03: By two autopsies, Mr Floyd had drugs in his system when he passed. Drugs and clubs...not real stretch:hmmm: The relationship between the two co-employees needs thorough scrutiny; murder two might not be the correct charge after all...:hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

I can see you won't be happy unless you are the cruise director of this little guilt trip you are trying to take me on. :03:

The reality is, when I mentioned sharp people here, I had you and a number of others in mind. I thought perhaps that others might render an opinion regarding possible solutions regarding the death of George Floyd and how to move forward.

It's all good, Mr, Quatro, as are we. :yep:

No, no, no cruise director here ... I feel your frustration ... The others just wanted to talk black and white history that's all. The best time to have thoughts are the middle of the night anways. Someone will air their opinion soon I'm sure :yep:

For Aktung that cop was a cop in his squad car outside the club while George was the security guard ... Perhaps some money got exchanged to look the other way sometimes. :o

[Bilge_Rat]

First of all, it wasn't a speech; it was a letter

<O>

Geez, my point went right over your head, did'nt?

[MaDef]

The reality is, when I mentioned sharp people here, I had you and a number of others in mind. I thought perhaps that others might render an opinion regarding possible solutions regarding the death of George Floyd and how to move forward.

Solutions:

more comprehensive basic training along with regular performance/standards evals
Psychological evals on a regular basis (annual would be fine to start)
no midnite warrant raids (dawn to dusk)
no-knock warrants need to be severely limited
all warrants served by uniformed officers (no plain clothes)
all military gear & weapons banned.
privileged immunity severely curtailed
Unions say in discipline/firing practices limited.
More policeman on foot (in among the public rather than in patrol cars).

That should cover the majority of the problems.

[vienna]

Geez, my point went right over your head, did'nt?



... and your exact point was...?...





<O>

[Cybermat47]

Solutions:

more comprehensive basic training along with regular performance/standards evals
Psychological evals on a regular basis (annual would be fine to start)
no midnite warrant raids (dawn to dusk)
no-knock warrants need to be severely limited
all warrants served by uniformed officers (no plain clothes)
all military gear & weapons banned.
privileged immunity severely curtailed
Unions say in discipline/firing practices limited.
More policeman on foot (in among the public rather than in patrol cars).

That should cover the majority of the problems.

Agree with all of these. Disappointing that they’re not already in place.

[MaDef]

Well, I can almost guarantee that when those in charge finally come up with a "solution", that solution will cause more problems than it is supposed to solve.
it will be nothing but knee jerk legislation.

[em2nought]

Solutions:

more comprehensive basic training along with regular performance/standards evals
Psychological evals on a regular basis (annual would be fine to start)
no midnite warrant raids (dawn to dusk)
no-knock warrants need to be severely limited
all warrants served by uniformed officers (no plain clothes)
all military gear & weapons banned.
privileged immunity severely curtailed
Unions say in discipline/firing practices limited.
More policeman on foot (in among the public rather than in patrol cars).

That should cover the majority of the problems.


What if the actual problem is the leftist educational system creating a generation of little entitled sociopaths who have also been taught to hate the USA? :hmmm:

[Cybermat47]

What if the actual problem is the leftist educational system creating a generation of little entitled sociopaths who have also been taught to hate the USA? :hmmm:

What does that have to do with a cop killing an unarmed man for allegedly having a counterfeit $20 bill?

And how exactly is the US education system “leftist”?

[Col7777]

When I was working, (I'm retired now) I have worked with lots of different people white and black.

A lot of the white people were OK, but there was obviously the some real A$$ holes who I wouldn't trust one bit.
Worked with some black people, again a lot were OK but just like the whites there was the odd A$$ hole, I also know of 3 that used the race card at work to their advantage.
My point is there is good and bad in all walks of life.


As for the forged bill that George Floyd had, I'm sure I read somewhere it turned out it wasn't forged but that could be wrong I don't know.
I also read that Chauvin worked inside the club but got lots of complaints so he was moved outside and Floyd remained inside and pi$$ed Chauvin off, but again that also could be wrong, so many things being said it is hard to tell what is true.

Col.

[Dowly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5CCUdu7xFI

[Skybird]

^ The far-far-left senate of Berlin has pushed through a law that reverses the burden of evidence in case of claimed disicrimnation offences. It means that if the police gets accused by somebody that he was "discriminated" in the widest meaning, the claim is now legally seen as evidence as long as the police officers cnanot prove that they did not discriminate.

This is a leftist suicide coup of the worst kind. Police unions are in arms, but the black block faction and the far left squatters and anarchists are celebrating. I know from first hand report that officers already have started to quit. Right they do, its the only advice that is left to give.

The law also affects other official services of public amdinsitration. If you claim you have experienced disrmination, you must not prove it - the other has to prove that he did not discmrinate you.

The law is through all parliamentary instances and is now live and active.

Recently the Constitutional High Court ruled that the German secret services like Bundesnachrichtendienst, MAD shall no longer overhear anybody not just ion germany, but in foreign countries as well. In other words: they have been told to become incapable to do their job.



Madness rules.

[Cybermat47]

^ The far-far-left senate of Berlin has pushed through a law that reverses the burden of evidence in case of claimed disicrimnation offences. It means that if the police gets accused by somebody that he was "discriminated" in the widest meaning, the claim is now legally seen as evidence as long as the police officers cnanot prove that they did not discriminate.

Well, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve heard today. I believe that’s the definition of “knee-jerk overreaction”.

Do Police need to be held accountable and bought to justice for any abuses of power they commit? Obviously, anyone who would argue otherwise isn’t worth my time. But accusations are not evidence. If you need evidence, just make it illegal for police to turn off their body cams while on duty. That way any abuse of power will be documented.

[Skybird]

What should I say, Berlin's political landscape has always been one of the two worst of the federal states in Germany, currently the senate is made up by a hollow-headed Teflon-socialist of zero courage and zero competentce who always hides away when he would have to make decisions, and the coalition is made of the leftiest Greens in Germany, the communist heirs of the SED, and the socialists. The city is mismanaged since decades, is massively cross-funded by other states, the senate is extremely close to its voter base in the anarchic and squatter scene, lefts, and amongst communists and protest-Greens and friends of Venezuela, ministries are led by quota-women and migrants-because-migrants-are-the-better-beings-and-appeal-to-our-voters (two of them are close to Turkish ultra-nationalists and Islamic fundamentalism), and incompetent diletantees who rate their ideological views higher than necessities dictated by reality, and then unify with the primitve plebs on the street, its all most disgusting, or in short: this senate represents some of the worst in german domestic politics. The opposition is not much better, degenerated in coruption and incompetence since decades. it was messy like this since the 80s already when we lived there for ten years, and my parents lived for another ten year after I left. It never was different, it always was a mess. Berlin is a toilet bowl.

Recent development is that the private patrons of arts and culture flee from the city in scores, three of the most prominent private patrons and collectors in this year alone, the biggest German fashion exhibition also has fled. Not that such an exhibition is important, but it is an image disaster and tells something on the trust of investors into the city. And then there is the airport...

Berlin'S debts amongst all 16 states are the third highest, they are almost as high as that of much bigger Lower Saxony in second, and a third of what Northrine Westphalia has at the top of the list. Only that NW also is much, much, much bigger and has the highest population of all states, and the industry zone of the Ruhr area and according big cities (which practically are one big city).

Well, its Berlin. I know it. I avoid it. If I were a businessman or an investor, at no cost I would consider Berlin. Nowhere else in Germany is the political adminstraiton as incompetent, as in Berlin.

[MaDef]

What if the actual problem is the leftist educational system creating a generation of little entitled sociopaths who have also been taught to hate the USA? Mrs. Clinton did popularize the proverb "It takes a village to raise a child". However you're making the issue more complicated than it needs to be.

In a nutshell, you have police on one side, criminals on the other, and regular citizens caught in the middle. When police begin treating the majority of the public as "potential criminals" then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

[u crank]

... and your exact point was...?...

If I may suggest what the point was.

Even a highly regarded figure like Abraham Lincoln would be suspect by the Red Guards of the Woke Left who intend to leave no cultural icons to their historical greatness. Mao would be proud.

[Cybermat47]

If I may suggest what the point was.

Even a highly regarded figure like Abraham Lincoln would be suspect by the Red Guards of the Woke Left who intend to leave no cultural icons to their historical greatness. Mao would be proud.

I think you’re confusing social liberals with tankie communists. The left and right aren’t cohesive factions, but rather very loose coalitions. For example, on the right you have Nazis who hate conservatives for their belief in religious and personal freedom, while on the left you have tankies who hate social liberals for being too soft and not extreme enough.

One example of that would be when social liberals talk about Tiananmen Square and Hong Kong, then the tankies come in and start talking about how “no-one was killed, but if they were they were fascists who deserved it”.

[u crank]

I think you’re confusing social liberals with tankie communists.

I don't think so. The people I am referring to are those with the mistaken belief that tearing down or defacing statues and monuments of long dead people will some how right all the wrongs that our ancestors made. The educational system that brought about this belief needs to be examined and corrected.

[steel shark]

I agree

u crank

"Those who cannot remember the past are Condemned to repeat it"

[Mr Quatro]

I agree

u crank

"Those who cannot remember the past are Condemned to repeat it"

I always like to say, "God will let you make a mistake to teach you a lesson"

[Cybermat47]

I don't think so. The people I am referring to are those with the mistaken belief that tearing down or defacing statues and monuments of long dead people will some how right all the wrongs that our ancestors made. The educational system that brought about this belief needs to be examined and corrected.

I was referring more to the “Red Guard” and “Mao” comments.

Personally, I’m of the opinion that statues of people who committed serious wrongs should be removed if the majority of people want them removed, but not destroyed - rather, placed in a museum where they can be viewed in the proper historical context. For example, by doing this the monument to the Liberty Place white supremacists would no longer glorify those people, but rather educate people about the history and impact of slavery, lynching, etc., in the same way you might see a Nazi flag in a WWII or holocaust museum.

[mapuc]

Seeing these news clips where protesters destroying statues made we wonder where have I seen this behaviour before ?

Oh yes of course from Middle East and Afghanistan.

Markus

[Méo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5CCUdu7xFI

Yeah, I had it on my youtube recommandations few days ago.

Had good laugh! :haha:


(even in these troubled times)

[Skybird]

I think the exampel from Berlin has taken the fun out of the Onion. Because Berlin is no satire at all. Its reality.

[vienna]

If I may suggest what the point was.

Even a highly regarded figure like Abraham Lincoln would be suspect by the Red Guards of the Woke Left who intend to leave no cultural icons to their historical greatness. Mao would be proud.


What a load, what a load... :haha:





<O>

[Onkel Neal]

If I may suggest what the point was.

Even a highly regarded figure like Abraham Lincoln would be suspect by the Red Guards of the Woke Left who intend to leave no cultural icons to their historical greatness. Mao would be proud.

I know, right? One thing we can count on, the left will eventually destroy itself with this lunacy.

[August]

But accusations are not evidence.


True but they are expensive to defend against. Without some form of limited immunity no policeman could long afford lawyers to defend against the avalanche of civil lawsuits that the nature of their work would easily entail.


I know, right? One thing we can count on, the left will eventually destroy itself with this lunacy.


As long as they don't take the rest of us with them.

[Cybermat47]

I know, right? One thing we can count on, the left will eventually destroy itself with this lunacy.

Because the far-left and the centre-left are totally the same thing...

[em2nought]

What does that have to do with a cop killing an unarmed man?



Maybe our cops have been dealing with dirtbags for so long that dirtbag is all they can now see. Maybe the good/smart cops all quit because they tire of dealing with the dirtbags day after day with no support from their mayors/governors/judges/DAs. Maybe the only people they can get to be cops are now sociopaths themselves.

[u crank]

What a load, what a load... :haha:

Antifa defaced a statue of Matthias Baldwin in Philadelphia, spray-painting the words "murderer" and "colonizer" near his name despite the fact that he fought against slavery, fought for black voting rights, and even helped build schools for black children.

https://thepostmillennial.com/antifa-mob-defaces-baldwin-statue

It is uncertain what the radicals want or are asking for when they deface the statue of an important figure in the abolition movement, but many in Philadelphia are wanting precisely what Baldwin fought and advocated for 200 years ago.

[Cybermat47]

https://thepostmillennial.com/antifa-mob-defaces-baldwin-statue

Don’t forget about when people defaced the memorial to the 54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry Regiment - the most famous all-black US Army unit of the American Civil War. Apparently, though unverified, the people responsible were white people using BLM for their own agenda, which explains why they vandalised a memorial to the very people who ended North American slavery by wiping out the CSA rebels.

At least they didn’t destroy it. The only statues I can understand being destroyed are ones of actual destructive racists, like King Leopold II who murdered 10-15 million Congolese, or Alexander H Stephens who justified and fought to keep slavery legal because he viewed black people as inferior :doh:

Worth noting that that news site doesn’t exactly have a glowing track record, though: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-post-millennial/

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY&t=1744s

[vienna]

It is also quite possible the vandalism may have been a case of mistaken identity: there is a well-known Confederate General by the name of William Baldwin who, at the time of his death, was a Brigadier General in the CSA; there is also a Confederate Colonel John Brown Baldwin, who was also a Confederacy political figure, so it isn't a stretch to suppose the vandals didn't know exactly the differences in the various Baldwins...


Incidentally, how was it determined the vandals were associated with Antifa or BLM? Given that Antifa doesn't really exist as an organized, cohesive entity and has no accurately identifiable leadership or even an 'org chart' and that the exact nature, extent and identities of its "membership" is unknown (even to Federal law enforcement), exactly how was it determined the vandals were part of Antifa? Were they all wearing "I'm With Antifa" t-shirts?...

...and the same goes with the BLM claims about the vandals: how exactly were they positively identified with BLM, when BLM is also a blanket name for any number of non-cohesive localized groups who are, at best, local grass-roots groups? As far as I know, there is no such thing as a national, organized BLM structure able to claim oversight and control of the various local BLM groups...


Maybe the truth is simple: the Trump minions and the Trumpettes know their base is markedly diminishing as are the hopes of keeping the Great Yellow Idiot in the Oval Office come November and they also know the slide in Trump's appeal to even his base has been precipitous; faced with the reality that people who had been content to just remain silent about the excesses and failures of Trump have now begun to openly and loudly express their misgivings about the mess the last three and a half years of Trump has created, the minions and Trumpettes have gone back to the old playbook of desperation: if you can't win on your own merits, make the people believe there are boogeymen organizing to "threaten" them and the people will rush back into the fold; while that may have worked in the past, the times they have a-changed and social media, the pervasive nature of cell phone videos, the growing inability of Trump to continue to control the narrative to his will, and the wholesale defection of businesses, industries, social organizations, and even some of those who had been sympathetic in the past to very public support of the changing social norms has amounted to a very pointed repudiation of the Trump administration. There really must be a gnawing concern in the minion and Trumpette camps when they see so many more White faces participating in the protests than ever before...





<O>

[Col7777]

What do you guy in the US think of Candace Owens, you have to listen to the end as well by the way?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1036&v=fij8TP0FE00&feature=emb_logo

[u crank]

It is also quite possible the vandalism may have been a case of mistaken identity: there is a well-known Confederate General by the name of William Baldwin who, at the time of his death, was a Brigadier General in the CSA; there is also a Confederate Colonel John Brown Baldwin, who was also a Confederacy political figure, so it isn't a stretch to suppose the vandals didn't know exactly the differences in the various Baldwins...


Incidentally, how was it determined the vandals were associated with Antifa or BLM?

Why does that matter?

So what your saying is that if they thought it was someone else it is ok to do that? I don't understand. Are you defending this kind of thing because these idiots don't know what they are doing? Do you think vandalism is the behavior of good citizens?

We all know who is doing this kind of thing. It is the radical elements of the Left in America. It's a mob. Doesn't matter what name you put on the mob does it?

[Commander Wallace]

Quick update.

Martin Gugino, 75-year-old protester pushed in Buffalo,by police, has brain injury and will start physical therapy.



https://www.yahoo.com/news/martin-gugino-75-old-protester-003730791.html

[Rockstar]

What do you guy in the US think of Candace Owens, you have to listen to the end as well by the way?



What I think about Candace Owen said is no different than my thoughts about Antifa, flag etiquette and the usual extremist political arguments.


What the bleepity bleep does it have to do with an elderly man being pushed to the ground or a suspect crying out for his mother and eventually dying while in police custody? I thought the argument was maybe thinking of ways to reverse the militarizing police training, outfitting, procedures and attitudes towards the general public they serve?


Oh well

[mapuc]

Said by a owner of a museum somewhere in Denmark.

Removing a statue or changing names of such and name of a street...does not erase history.

This is true..which made me wonder...now it is statues and streets, what will be next ?
Our history books or books with wrong contents
?
Well so far movies like Gone With the Wind have been removed from HBO and now an episode of Fawlty Towers (The Germans) have been removed.

Both had been classified as racist.

Markus

[Rockstar]

All I know is, if this kind of treatment by the state towards their citizens happened in some other country. We would be quick to call them freedom fighters and to demand we launch more freedom bombs. :doh:

[August]

Well so far movies like Gone With the Wind have been removed from HBO and now an episode of Fawlty Towers (The Germans) have been removed.

Both had been classified as racist.

Markus


On the other hand HBOs removal (which I understand is temporary) propelled GWTW into Amazons number one best seller list.


Nothing makes Americans want to read a book or watch a movie more than one that has been banned.


‘Gone With the Wind’ Hits No. 1 on Amazon Best-Sellers Chart After HBO Max Drops Movie

“Gone With the Wind (https://variety.com/t/gone-with-the-wind/)” zipped to the top of Amazon (https://variety.com/t/amazon/)’s best-sellers sales chart for TV and movies, a day after WarnerMedia’s HBO Max (https://variety.com/t/hbo-max/) pulled the movie for “racist depictions.” (https://variety.com/2020/film/news/hbo-max-gone-with-the-wind-removed-1234629892/)
Amazon bases its rankings on sales data. The site currently offers the 70th anniversary two-disc DVD edition of “Gone With the Wind” starting at $29.55, while Amazon Video offers the movie as a digital HD rental at $3.99 and for purchase at $9.99.
Meanwhile, on Apple’s iTunes movie chart for the U.S., “Gone With the Wind” on Wednesday was in the No. 5 spot (after “The Hunt,” “Birds of Prey,” “Bad Boys for Life,” and “The Invisible Man”).






https://variety.com/2020/digital/uncategorized/gone-with-the-wind-amazon-best-seller-hbo-max-1234630577/

[mapuc]

< Yes they have removed these two titles-They will probably erase some scenes.

This has made people angry and now they want to original movie or series, that's why Gone With the Wind is number one on Amazon.

Markus

[Skybird]

Severla articles and essays I have red in the German press about the powerful Americna police unions protecting their members "no matter what" gave me the impression that much would be won if instead of discussions on dismantling the policie in general America should focus on replacing the police unions to cut back their overboarding power and influence. It seems they fight down an awful lot of charges and complaints against offenders in uniform. So an American Thatcher might be a good idea.

After that, a redesigning of general police doctrine seems to be a good idea. Plus longer, better, more diverse training. The training seems to lack seriously. Just 17 weeks on average. I dont get over this.

Dismantling the police in general? Please... come back to your senses, Lefty.

[Sean C]

...now it is statues and streets, what will be next ?
Our history books or books with wrong contents?


Just remember: we have always been at war with Eastasia.

[Mr Quatro]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaSkhDSUMAMZnLg.png



BLM quote, "We got to keep this thing going"

[Cybermat47]

Most Confederate statues were set up in order to propagate the Lost Cause myth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy), and as such are actually part of an attempt to rewrite history.

If the statues are removed and placed in museums where they can be viewed in a historically accurate context, then the historical record has not been destroyed, it’s been corrected.

It should also be noted that General Robert E. Lee himself was opposed to the creation of CSA monuments. He was of the opinion that such monuments would simply reopen the wounds that the war had left in America and lead to more division and conflict in the future, which was contrary to his desire for America to heal from the war and reunite together as one nation.

It’s also natural for a community to remove monuments that no longer reflect their views. Should countries formerly occupied by the USSR keep their Bolshevik statues and monuments in public places? Is it wrong for Britain to remove statues of Jimmy Saville?

[Jimbuna]

Meet Anthony Johnson, The First Person To Ever Own A Slave In America - And He Was A Black Man.
https://i.postimg.cc/wx50BpGj/Untitled.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Cybermat47]

Meet Anthony Johnson, The First Person To Ever Own A Slave In America - And He Was A Black Man.

Not true. Just looked him up and he was captured as a slave in Africa, shipped to America and worked as an indentured servant there for a white man named Bennet, gained his freedom, then owned his own indentured servants.

I’m not sure how this is relevant, anyway. The fact that black people were involved in the trans-Atlantic slave trade has been known for a long time. And Anthony Johnson doesn’t have a statue.

[Col7777]

Here in the UK it is getting worse, they have already started pulling down statues, defacing cenotaphs, burning the the Union Jack.
Now there is talk of changing street names and taking books off the shelves, they are trying to erase history.

At first some people supported their message that black people were being put down as lower class etc but now a lot a turning against them, they a causing a bigger divide, it seems the ones who a most racist is the BLM.

I copied this from another site but it's true:

I have been wondering about why whites are racists, and no other race is?
There are British Africans, British Chinese, British Asian, British Turks, etc, etc, etc.
And then there are just British. You know what I mean, plain ole English people that were born here. You can include the Welsh, the Scottish and the people who live off our shores of Great Britain.
You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you. So why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?
You have the Muslim Council of Great Britain.
You have Black History Month.
You have swimming pools for Asian women.
You have Islamic banks for Muslims only.
You have year of the dragon day for Chinese people.
If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.
If we had White History Month, we'd be racists.
If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR lives, we'd be racists.
A white woman could not be in the Miss Black Britain or Miss Asia, but any colour can be in the Miss UK.
If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships, you know we'd be racists.
There are over 200 openly proclaimed Muslim only schools in England. Yet if there were 'White schools only', that would be racist!
In the Bradford riots and Toxteth riots, you believed that you were standing-up for your race and rights. If we stood-up for our race and rights, you would call us racists.
You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.
We fly our flag, we are racists. If we celebrate St George's day we are racists.
You can fly your flag and it’s called diversity. You celebrate your cultures and it’s called multiculturalism.
You rob us, carjack us, and rape our daughters. But, when a white police officer arrests a black gang member or beats up an Asian drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.
I am proud.... but you call me a racist.
Why is it that only whites can be racists??
There is nothing improper about this e-mail. Let's see which of you are proud enough to send it on.
I sadly don't think many will. That's why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won't stand up for ourselves!
BEING PROUD TO BE WHITE! It's not a crime, YET... but its getting very close!

[Cybermat47]

There are over 200 openly proclaimed Muslim only schools in England. Yet if there were 'White schools only', that would be racist!

Islam isn’t a race, it’s a religion. And there are Christian schools in the UK.

You rob us, carjack us, and rape our daughters. But, when a white police officer arrests a black gang member or beats up an Asian drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.

All the non-whites are robbing us, carjacking us, and raping our daughters? Funny, I could have sworn that white criminals existed as well.

Also, I don’t think you’ll find many people who get upset when non-white criminals get arrested. It’s more about when someone is slowly choked to death by a police officer for allegedly possessing a counterfeit $20 bill.

I sadly don't think many will. That's why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won't stand up for ourselves!

Have whites lost the right to vote or the right to a minimum wage in the UK? Exactly what rights are you losing?

[Armistead]

I do tire of the hypocrisy of those that say riots work, the destruction, people getting hurt, promoting it on, etc. Like someone on FB I went to school with that kept saying "burn it all down". I was like - why do all those supporting chaos only support it if it's happening to someone else? If you really think it works and support it ..
Burn your own corporate place of work down or post the address of it on a riot page to be destroyed.
Burn your own house down
Give the names and addresses of family members that you love you're willing to sacrifice for the cause.

Like a gay friend of mine always posting pictures of his 20x20 closet with 400 pair of expensive white privileged shoes cheering all this destruction on. I dared him in support to take just one pair of his shoes and douse them with lighter fuel and set them aflame in protest...wouldn't do it.

As a former Confederate re-enactor that partook of many historical documentaries and a few movies, please just leave the museums and historical CW parks alone and also at least remove all Union/Fed history from public too for enslaving the Indians after freeing the slaves because my great great grandmother on my mother's side was Cherokee. I have the right to be offended too!

I also don't mind seeing the forts renamed, at least some of them, Bragg was a terrible general that the bulk of those that served under him would've shot him dead.

[Armistead]

Islam isn’t a race, it’s a religion. And there are Christian schools in the UK.



All the non-whites are robbing us, carjacking us, and raping our daughters? Funny, I could have sworn that white criminals existed as well.

Also, I don’t think you’ll find many people who get upset when non-white criminals get arrested. It’s more about when someone is slowly choked to death by a police officer for allegedly possessing a counterfeit $20 bill.



Have whites lost the right to vote or the right to a minimum wage in the UK? Exactly what rights are you losing?

Since the Prophet Muhammad sold, captured, and owned slaves, should he not be delegated to the trash bin of history too?

[Cybermat47]

I do tire of the hypocrisy of those that say riots work, the destruction, people getting hurt, promoting it on, etc. Like someone on FB I went to school with that kept saying "burn it all down". I was like - why do all those supporting chaos only support it if it's happening to someone else? If you really think it works and support it.

Agreed. Violence doesn’t help ha cause like this, it just distracts from the message and disrupts the efforts of the peaceful protestors, not to mention destroying the property of people who don’t deserve it - the most famous example so far being a sports barn owned by firefighter and Liberian immigrant KB Balla.

By acting violent, they’re just reinforcing the negative opinions that some have of them.

The peaceful protestors, on the other hand, are doing the right thing and spreading a good message, but sadly being drowned out by the looters and rioters.

Since the Prophet Muhammad sold, captured, and owned slaves, should he not be delegated to the trash bin of history too?

If by “trashbin” you mean “forgotten”, no. If you mean “criticised for actions such as the ownership of slaves and alleged war crimes and pedophilia”, then yes, like any historical figure. The fact that he’s a major religious figure doesn’t absolve him.

[Onkel Neal]

Like a gay friend of mine always posting pictures of his 20x20 closet with 400 pair of expensive white privileged shoes cheering all this destruction on. I dared him in support to take just one pair of his shoes and douse them with lighter fuel and set them aflame in protest...wouldn't do it.



Lol, he's probably too busy complaining he needs another stimulus check.

Since the Prophet Muhammad sold, captured, and owned slaves, should he not be delegated to the trash bin of history too?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DimpledLongChimneyswift-size_restricted.gif

Man, that needs to be highlighted!

[Méo]

If the statues are removed and placed in museums where they can be viewed in a historically accurate context, then the historical record has not been destroyed, it’s been corrected.

This.

Quite simple to understand.

But all this is a matter of emotion, so it's never simple.

[Cybermat47]

Increased Pressure on Buffalo Police Department After 2008 Firing of Officer Comes To Light

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/buffalo-officials-ask-state-probe-firing-black-officer-who-stopped-n1231016

Note that NBC News has a moderate left bias and high factual reporting according to Media Bias Factcheck (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nbc-news/).

What do you guys make of this? If the suspect was posing a threat to officers, then the chokehold was justified, but the fact that seemingly no harm came to the officers suggests that this was not the case. The fact that Holloman-Horne was a 19-year police veteran also suggests that she knew what she was doing.

[Skybird]

I feel as if i do not get why the police chief in Atlanta has resigned over their incident, while obviously not being a harmless incident, blind police brutality and racism seems to have not been the case here?! How is the narration going on this one?

[Cybermat47]

I feel as if i do not get why the police chief in Atlanta has resigned over their incident, while obviously not being a harmless incident, blind police brutality and racism seems to have not been the case here?! How is the narration going on this one?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/atlanta-police-shoot-kill-black-man-who-grabbed-a-taser-during-struggle/news-story/e88abe2acb40613a226e69d5a4062505

Note that The Australian has a moderate right bias and high factual reporting according to Media Bias Factcheck (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-australian/).

I think you could definitely make a case for misuse of deadly force here, but there doesn’t seem to be a case for brutality - unless of course the police started the violence, which we have no way of knowing, but apparently the victim was drunk, so it would make sense to think that they started the fight. As for racism, unless the shooter didn’t use deadly force in a similar situation with a non-black person, or had been involved in racist behaviour in the past, you can’t exactly prove or deny the intent there.

Any past incidents of misuse of force, brutality or racism from this same department should also be taken into consideration, and the police get no points there. They shot a 64 year old Marine veteran for defending his home against burglars in 2011, costing him a kidney and time wrongfully spent in prison. They killed 92 year old Kathryn Johnston after she fired on them for entering her home unannounced with a no-knock warrant, then planted marijuana in her house in 2006. Six officers were fired for corruption in 2011, and in May this year they apparently assaulted, arrested, and assaulted in custody two protestors who had complied with police orders.

Obviously though, the individual officers involved in this case apparently weren’t involved in those past incidents, so there’s still no direct evidence that they’re racist or brutalise suspects, or that this case was misuse of deadly force at the most, justified police action at the least.

But it’s easy to understand why the protestors are angry about this. They’re rightly outraged by the murder of George Floyd, so when they hear of another case of a white policeman killing a black man, they’re obviously going to react the same way. They want more police accountability, especially when it comes to the killings of black people, so letting this event go by without protesting, especially when the department in question has the track record it does, wouldn’t make any sense.

[Skybird]

The link gives me only a blank site with a subscription reference in the adress line. I have read some notes on her decision here and there, it is said she quit because she felt for ther city and was sad about it and blablabla. Nothing I take serious as an explanation - as long as her reaction of quitting is not seen as maybe premature or excessive?

The case is not clear and easy to judge, I think. Violent resistence to police arrest, alcohol, fighting with officers and taking a tazer weapon, fleeing, and then suddenly starting to trim said tazer at one of the officers, he was tazered himself three times to no effect, all that at night and in low light, and adrenaline pumping.

A tazer might not be a lethal weapon, but the Colt in the holster of the officer is. If he woulld have allowed the supsect to continue his move, he would have put himself at the manS' mercy, and after the events of the past seconds he cannot rule out that the wan would have tazered him. And then? Would he have just run away? Or would he have taken the cop's colt - and then owning a lethal firearms? What would he have done with it next? Can the cop be expected to put himself and his life at the mercy of this man in this situation, in these circumstances? I tend to say No.

That will become a difficult thing to objectively judge. The suspect had failed a field sobriety test, and was already shot with a tazer gun three times, to no effect. The officers repeatedly gave verbal warnings.

The CNN article only quotes the former chief's words, but they give zero explanation for why she stepped down so quickly. She made words, but said nothing.

[Onkel Neal]

NYPD Officers Are Retiring In Droves Over Leadership’s Handling Of Riots, Officials Say (https://www.dailywire.com/news/nypd-officers-are-retiring-in-droves-over-leaderships-handling-of-riots-officials-say)

America, We Are Leaving
by Travis Yates June 12, 2020


This is the hardest thing I have written.

I grew up in a law enforcement family. My father worked his way up to the rank to Captain at the Ft. Smith (AR) Police Department. As I kid I remember going with him on Friday to pick up his check and I was in awe of these super heroes he worked around. I didn’t grow up wanting to be a cop but one fateful night, as a freshman in college, that all changed.


I went on a ride along and my life’s journey would never be the same.

After four years of college my dad wanted me at an agency that respected that education so I moved to Tulsa (OK) at 21 years old and never looked back.

I didn’t know anyone and all I knew was what I saw my dad do, work hard and treat people with respect. I saw a lot of other cops working hard as well and doing all they could to keep the community safe.

27 years has passed and if you would have told me the condition of law enforcement today, I would have never believed you.
The mentally ill used to get treatment and now they just send cops. Kids used to be taught respect and now it’s cool to be disrespectful.

Supervisors used to back you when you were right but now they accuse you of being wrong in order to appease crazy people.

Parents used to get mad at their kids for getting arrested and now they get mad at us.

The media used to highlight the positive contribution our profession gave to society and now they either ignore it or twist the truth for controversy to line their own pockets.
Now, the little we have, we are told they are going to defund us or even abolish us. Citizens with a political agenda will reign over us and all you have to do is wake up and put on a uniform to be a racist.

This weekend I received death threats for just doing my job. It would have been outrageous a decade ago and made national news.

Now, it’s just a Monday.

There will be more threats, more accusations of racism and more lies told about us.

I used to talk cops out of leaving the job. Now I’m encouraging them.

It’s over America. You finally did it.

You aren’t going to have to abolish the police, we won’t be around for it.

And while I know, most Americans still appreciate us, it’s not enough and the risk is too high. Those of you that say thank you or buy the occasional meal, it means everything.

But those of you that were silent while the slow turning of the knives in our backs happened by thugs and cowards, this is on you.

Your belief in hashtags and memes over the truth has and will create an environment in your community that you will never expect.

If you think Minneapolis will turn into Mogadishu and that is far from you, it’s coming.

And when it does, remember what your complicity did.

This is the America that you made.

[Cybermat47]

America, We Are Leaving
by Travis Yates June 12, 2020

Travis Yates is currently under investigation and has been denounced by his department after saying that more African Americans should be shot.

Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum on Wednesday blasted one of his police department's top commanders after the officer denied there's systemic racism in law enforcement, then said African Americans "probably ought to be" shot more.

Tulsa Chief of Police Wendell Franklin, the first African American to hold that position, on Thursday also denounced the incendiary comments made by Major Travis Yates.

"Chief Wendell Franklin and the Tulsa Police Department want to make it very clear we do not endorse, condone or support Yates’ comments made on the show," a statement from the TPD said. "This matter has been referred to our Internal Affairs Unit."

Yates was on KFAQ on Monday, in a weekly segment called "Behind the Blue Line," when he said there's no institutional racism in policing.

“All the research said — including Roland Fryer, an African American Harvard professor, Heather MacDonald and the National Academy of Sciences — all of their research says we’re shooting African Americans about 24 percent less than we probably ought to be based on the crimes being committed," Yates said.

Yates did not specifically cite which studies led him to this conclusion.

A representative for the National Academy of Sciences declined comment on Thursday.

Fryer, an economics professor cited by Yates, authored a 2016 paper on policing, published in The Journal of Political Economy. He found that African Americans and Hispanics were disproportionately targeted for use of force by officers — but said there were "no racial differences" in terms of officer-involved shootings.

"Our paper has three main findings: There are large racial differences in non-lethal use of force, those differences persist even among citizens who the police report are fully compliant, but we find no racial differences - statistically zero - in officer-involved shootings," Fryer said in a statement to NBC News.

"Yes that’s what our paper makes clear. Big differences in lower level uses of force. No difference in shootings."

Critics of Fryer's work said the professor leaned too heavily on self-reports from police and underplayed shooting "incidents that were legal but unnecessary."

In a Washington Post editorial in response to Fryer's work, writer Radley Balko listed several cases of police shootings that were deemed lawful but might have been avoidable with more careful work by officers.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/african-americans-probably-ought-be-shot-more-police-top-tulsa-n1229981

Note that NBC News has a moderate left bias and high factual reporting according to Media Bias Factcheck (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nbc-news/).

[Skybird]

A general erosion and decline of social and political culture.

There might be justified original goals and ideals in a given movement you or me wopuld sympathise with. But the problem is that nowadays such a movement immediately gets infiltrated by ideological crusaders with quite different agendas. Mostly it is the political left and Marxist and anarchists that by this give the impression that for example environmentalism and Marxism are natural allies. They are not (just watch at the industrial and environmental heritage the Warsaw Pact economies have left behind). Also, movements can be hijacked by right wingers an Nazis, the German AfD is a good example, the party slowly but step by step gets turned into a new NSDAP under a new name, its not still there but it seems get there. Originally, it could have been seen as a naive EU-friendly form of neo-libertarianism! It is not that anymore, not even close.

That way I find it impossible to line up and declare my support for or soldiarity with any of these movements that maybe originally, by their original intentions, may hve been of my taste.

Indifference is the end result, and lacking differentiation. Any demonstration for for example women equality immediately turns into a demonstration for ultra feminism, genderism, anti capitalism, Islam-tolerance, claimed anti racism, fascist environmentalism, if you join a movement for women's rights, you get linked to supporting all that other that maybe you are totally against.

Populism rules. And the worst populists are not even those that get accused by established parties to be populists - the worst populists are the established parties themselves.

Our civilization is in decline. That simple it is. We self-destruct, with a little friendly assistance by Russia, Islam, China.

[Cybermat47]

That way I find it impossible to line up and declare ym soldiarity with any of thes emoev,ments that maybe oridgaonlly, by their oroginal intentions, may hve been of my taste.

Same here. I’m hesitant to put my seal of approval on any group in case the tankies or Nazis hijack it. Yes, I want to save the sharks. No, I don’t want to install a communist regime and invade our neighbours in a worldwide revolution.

I don’t think that the world is in decline, though. Religious, political, etc. extremists are small but very vocal groups, and very profitable for the media to report on, so you just hear about them the most.

I probably will be saying that we’re in decline in around 40-50 years when all the kids start saying “okay zoomer” to me :O:

[Catfish]

^ i agree that "the decline" will probably not happen. There has always be unrest or protest, but now the minorities (including the far right) have new toys like the internet and "social" media to spread anger and voice their opinion, which then seems much bigger than it really is.
In the US those suddenly come out and get high in the slipstream of Trump, while there are others in other countries.
I hope the wave and hype will ebb away again.

On the other hand the whole world now becomes aware of unfainess and injustice, which probably is a good thing.
Until they begin to really censor the internet, like in China. Since they cannot quite completely control and silence it, the usual suspects spread desinformation. I am surprised how many fall for this bull.

[Skybird]

I just read in local news that this morning there was a demonstrat ion in my home town. Under the motto "Solidarity!" they demonstrated for anti racism, social injustice and - better bus driver payment.

Well. A nice mix, I only miss a statement of admiration for pop music from the 80s, and fresh croissants.

[Skybird]

I just read in local news that this morning there was a demonstrat ion in my home town. Under the motto "Solidarity!" they demonstrated for anti racism, social injustice and - better bus driver payment.

Well. A nice mix, I only miss a statement of admiration for pop music from the 80s, and fresh croissants.
I further just red that it also was for or against climate policy.

Very economical thinking, this demonstration, hitting several flees with just one slap. Video gamers call it a "combo". So why not goin g to today's demonstration. Maybe it does not really matter what it is for or against.

In earlier times such events were called a fair, with something to offer for old and young members of every family. And I see that it is difficult to find proper and unrisky entertainment these days. Cinemas still run not well, no life shows, no concerts, and money being low for many.

[Cybermat47]

On the other hand the whole world now becomes aware of unfainess and injustice, which probably is a good thing.

Exactly. Without the internet, issues like the murder of George Floyd, the oppression of Hong Kong and Uyghur Muslims etc. would still happen, they just wouldn’t be noticed by as many people.

[Onkel Neal]

Travis Yates is currently under investigation and has been denounced by his department after saying that more African Americans should be shot.


“All the research said — including Roland Fryer, an African American Harvard professor, Heather MacDonald and the National Academy of Sciences — all of their research says we’re shooting African Americans about 24 percent less than we probably ought to be based on the crimes being committed," Yates said.


.

Good report but I think you are twisting his words a bit. Sounds like he is suggesting that based on crime per capita the number of shootings is less that the statistical averages would support.

My solution: hire enough black police officers until 12.6% of all police forces are black, then send only black officers to crimes scenes where black people are involved, and make sure all white officers do not get involved with crime where black men are present.

[Cybermat47]

Good report but I think you are twisting his words a bit. Sounds like he is suggesting that based on crime per capita the number of shootings is less that the statistical averages would support.

Maybe, but the best-case scenario is that he worded it in an amazingly tone-deaf way, so much more tone-deaf than all the police I’ve interacted with and had working relations with that it’s hard to believe that he’s in the same profession as them, and it provides more context for his piece in the Daily Wire as to why he’s leaving his job.

[Jeff-Groves]

It's now at the point if you open your mouth and speak? Your wrong.
This thing of deciding what one 'means' as compared to what was said is crazy!
'Based on context'? Everything posted here is offensive.

[Bilge_Rat]

Note that The Australian has a moderate right bias and high factual reporting according to Media Bias Factcheck (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-australian/).



Media Bias Factcheck is just one guy giving his "opinion". He is no data or any expertise. Google Dave van Zandt.

saying something is right or left based on his site is meaningless.

[Skybird]

They have released the videos from Atlanta now. The suspect did not just aim but actually shot at the officers, and missed, it was not before then that the one officer drew is weapon and fired. It all went very quickly. I cannot see racism or police brutality at work, just a super-fast decision making process in a situaiton with tazer shots traded that went this way and not another way. The suspect was tazered before, three tazer shots by the police the news say, and he was still running. Also, alcohol involved: even bigger unpredictability of evertyhing.

It may not have been optimal, still I can see, from a neutrla pschological standpoint,l how thign swent this way from the perspective of the police. I strictly see thsi incident totaly different than that inviolving officer Chauvin. The cases do not compare.

As critical as I am of the general police culture, I disagree that these two have been already prematurely sacrificed and condemned.

[Rockstar]

NYPD Officers Are Retiring In Droves Over Leadership’s Handling Of Riots, Officials Say (https://www.dailywire.com/news/nypd-officers-are-retiring-in-droves-over-leaderships-handling-of-riots-officials-say)

America, We Are Leaving
by Travis Yates June 12, 2020


Kinda reminds me of Miami in the 70's and 80's. Drug cartels were running that city, crime, murders, assassinations, drugs use all skyrocketing out of control and it quickly turned into another Medellín.

Miami Dade P.D. being shot at and dying. Having not received any help, reinforcements or assistance just quit or retired early in droves. This left a huge void the city filled with people they normally would have never considered to hire as a police officers. Many of the Marielitos were now legally carrying guns and a badge. This lead to well known widespread and deadly police corruption.

Enter the federal government, FBI, CIA, JTF, USCG, USCS, USN, US Army, Blue Thunder, oceanside300, military ships, planes, high tech surveillance and the 'war' on drugs. Citizens participated too, there was a time when something like 40 out of 50 cartel members were shot and killed during the commission of a crime by law abiding citizens packing heat.

[mapuc]

The questions I ask myself is:

What will this end with ?

Will USA change the police education ?

Will there be new laws to protect certain groups of minority ?

Will there be some kind of Censur in public publications ?
(so no one gets offended)

Markus

[Skybird]

I think this time there is too much too widespread pressure, they cannot return to business as usual after some grass has grown.

Certain police departments probably will be/need to be shut down and then rebuild with new training and practice curriculae.

The immense influence of the police unions about which i have red repeatedly now, and that until here protect the black sheep in the police's rows at any cost, must be broken.

Its probably a major change that will go over several years.

But any police can only be as good as the people are by character that it attracts to serve in it. And I have some problems currently why a conmpetent good character should feel attracted to that job - in this country, in this general climate, in this political divide, in this upheated social unrest.

[MaDef]

Good report but I think you are twisting his words a bit. Sounds like he is suggesting that based on crime per capita the number of shootings is less that the statistical averages would support.

My solution: hire enough black police officers until 12.6% of all police forces are black, then send only black officers to crimes scenes where black people are involved, and make sure all white officers do not get involved with crime where black men are present.Didn't the U.S try that "equal but separate" crap back in the late 1800- early 1900's, and was subsequently ruled unconstitutional back in the 1950's?

[Mr Quatro]

Kinda reminds me of Miami in the 70's and 80's. Drug cartels were running that city, crime, murders, assassinations, drugs use all skyrocketing out of control and it quickly turned into another Medellín.

Miami Dade P.D. being shot at and dying. Having not received any help, reinforcements or assistance just quit or retired early in droves. This left a huge void the city filled with people they normally would have never considered to hire as a police officers. Many of the Marielitos were now legally carrying guns and a badge. This lead to well known widespread and deadly police corruption.

Enter the federal government, FBI, CIA, JTF, USCG, USCS, USN, US Army, Blue Thunder, oceanside300, military ships, planes, high tech surveillance and the 'war' on drugs. Citizens participated too, there was a time when something like 40 out of 50 cartel members were shot and killed during the commission of a crime by law abiding citizens packing heat.

Sounds like you were there Rockstar :o

[Onkel Neal]

Didn't the U.S try that "equal but separate" crap back in the late 1800- early 1900's, and was subsequently ruled unconstitutional back in the 1950's?

Sure. But this is one way to stop racist white cops from brutalizing innocent black people, just send black cops.

[MaDef]

Sure. But this is one way to stop racist white cops from brutalizing innocent black people, just send black cops.
If you do that then you may as well toss out the Civil Rights Act of 1964 along with any subsequent legislation since. we are either all equal or we aren't. you can't have it both ways.

[Onkel Neal]

We are all equal but some of us are getting bad treatment by the police.

[Skybird]

^ This, and also: its impractical. You do not know in advance what skin colours to meet when you get called as the police. Also, if ethnic shares in the population do not exactly match shares of these ethnicities int jhe crime and offence statistics, you again have a - well, a non-matching situation. And if you go by the rule of that the share in crime category rules on the share of that ethincity in plcie posts, you again end up - most likely, I would assume - with a disproportionate share of ethnic police officer. Suddenly the ethnic minority shows up with a massisve overload in numbers of polcie officer belonging to that group. That could go as far as that a social minority fields a very hugh number of police officers so that the social majoirty deals with a social minority'S cops majority.



Sorry Neal, your idea does not compute well for a number of reasons. Or have you been ironic again?

[Armistead]

Sure. But this is one way to stop racist white cops from brutalizing innocent black people, just send black cops.

Well, most all studies agree black police are as likely or more likely to kill people of color as white officers, so that's interesting when there are more white cops in these forces. Do black cops have a much higher bias of some sort when it comes to killing black people? Black police also use the N word as slang and get by with it while white police do not, so culture seems to play some role in communication, tho it's against police policy.

So even if stats say more black cops would equal more use of lethal force towards black people, would it still resolve the overall race issue for black people?

[Onkel Neal]

Well, most all studies agree black police are as likely or more likely to kill people of color as white officers, so that's interesting when there are more white cops in these forces. Do black cops have a much higher bias of some sort when it comes to killing black people? Black police also use the N word as slang and get by with it while white police do not, so culture seems to play some role in communication, tho it's against police policy.

No way! I don't believe it. Black cops can't be racist.


^ This, and also: its impractical. You do not know in advance what skin colours to meet when you get called as the police. Also, if ethnic shares in the population do not exactly match shares of these ethnicities int jhe crime and offence statistics, you again have a - well, a non-matching situation. And if you go by the rule of that the share in crime category rules on the share of that ethincity in plcie posts, you again end up - most likely, I would assume - with a disproportionate share of ethnic police officer. Suddenly the ethnic minority shows up with a massisve overload in numbers of polcie officer belonging to that group. That could go as far as that a social minority fields a very hugh number of police officers so that the social majoirty deals with a social minority'S cops majority.



Sorry Neal, your idea does not compute well for a number of reasons. Or have you been ironic again?

lol, I'm pretty sure we need a massive overload of people of color in all our police departments. We should strive for at least 50% black police officers to handle black crime. That way people of color will not object to being arrested by black officers, and if they resist arrest and go crazy like the guy in Atlanta, the black officers will not shoot them down in cold blood.

Come on, get with the times, CHAZ in Seattle even get this. One of their 30 demands is:

“Only black doctors and nurses should be employed specifically to care for black patients.”

[Skybird]

lol, I'm pretty sure we need a massive overload of people of color in all our police departments. We should strive for at least 50% black police officers to handle black crime. That way people of color will not object to being arrested by black officers, and if they resist arrest and go crazy like the guy in Atlanta, the black officers will not shoot them down in cold blood.

You honestly think that a population that by majority is not black but where racism is present and some would say: prominent, and a police force that by 50+% is black, does not create new problems? Well, I think it would. In no time.

[Cybermat47]

The fact that cops are white isn’t the problem. The fact that cops are abusing their power, with racism being the most prominent facet of that, is the problem.

There is no way to defend an officer who abuses their power, regardless of their ethnicity, gender, orientation, political views, or anything else. A crooked cop is a crooked cop, and as somebody who also works in emergency services, that is unacceptable.

[MaDef]

We are all equal but some of us are getting bad treatment by the police.agreed, but looking for solutions through the racism prism limits the solutions available to us.

You want to fix this crap, it's simple, layout clear standards & procedures police must follow all the time, and when they deviate, they need to be held to account.

[Armistead]

When I look at stats, most of what I'm seeing is a big circular jerk off of passing the blame backwards.

Blacks are shot at a rate 2-3 times higher than whites by police officers, but the reasoning is said 13% of blacks commit over 50% of violent crimes.. so more police interaction. Then comes the argument that blacks are profiled, arrested and charged more than whites, thus a much higher unfair crime stat than whites, but then stats police are called into black communities via 911 at a much higher rate than white communities. Then we have stats a that a broken family unit { pushing 75% illegitimacy rates for black Americans} failed education, poverty, govt dependency creates more crime. If you pack all these factors into a city sector you create a war zone of gangs, drugs, murder and crime. Because it's such a dangerous job cities give much more lenient union contract protections to police, but this seems to protect bad apples...Then we have the issue of overall police brutality, but the major news is white police racism vs the black community narrative when black cops are more likely to use deadly force against blacks. Then studies that say, regardless of race in America, if you graduate high school, get a job, don't have kids out of wedlock, continue to educate yourself and use your money wisely you have a 80% chance of moving into the working middle class spectrum where crime stats are much lower.

The answer to all of these seems politicians focus first and pass the blame on the racism of white police against blacks, then overall bad policing, when the real issues are the economics and policies, like policing for profit. It seems to be a bottom up focus instead of a top down focus where politicians scream narratives for votes when things go wrong and continue doing the same ole **** in back rooms.

[Catfish]

They have released the videos from Atlanta now. The suspect did not just aim but actually shot at the officers, and missed, it was not before then that the one officer drew is weapon and fired..
They just reported in the news that the suspect stole a taser and ran away, when he was shot dead. Where is this evidence, for any scenario?

[mapuc]

Some thoughts

Isn't it possible to develop some kind of a non-deadly weapon where the person is being paralysed by some poison, which doesn't damage the persons heart, liver, kidney and so on. I'm not talking about the taser they have today.
Like some of the poison our animal use in the nature, but made non-deadly.

Remember a doctor saying in Danish news some years ago, this Taser can be deadly if the person who get hit by it, have a bad heart.

Just a thought.

Another thing.
It seems like every statue have to be demolished whether the history behind them is good or bad

Markus

[Skybird]

They just reported in the news that the suspect stole a taser and ran away, when he was shot dead. Where is this evidence, for any scenario?
There are two videos, one from the police car and one from the building's wall or entrance. The second shows how he struggled, ran with the tazer in his hand, and while running he aimed backward, and fired, you can see the dart and the cable flashing through the air over the cop's head. You ana see that then the cop pulled his pistol or colt formt e holster (not before!) and fired three shots in qwucik succession. The videos I saw just after my first comment on Atlanata, when typign my first reply, I had not seen them, they were released later, I have seen them since then.

Honestly said, I would have probably reacted the very same way: I get fired on by some rhino? I bring effect on the guy as fast as I can so he must stop. A military-trained person maybe would have done not 3 quick shots, but two quick shots as fast as possible on the "centre of mass" to quickly get - unaimed but certain - effect and supressing the target, and then having won the time for a more controlled third shot.

The man should have not started a struggle, but that still was not what got him into trouble. The real trouble was that he FIRED at the direction of the cop. That's when my humour would have immediately - and at the latest - come to an end, and the cop obviously ticked the same way.

Sorry, I cannot condemn this man. The situaiton, the quickness of situation unfolding, the knowledge of the man being under alcohol influence, the weapon fired at him - the officer acted much by reflex and self-preserving training, I think. I cannot completely condemn him. Even more so since it was reported that he had a clean service reputation, no questionable incidents, some media reported.

Did the dead man deserve death in all this? No. But he plays a role in why things escalaed, because it were his decisions, to drink, to sit in a car with alcohol, falling asleep and blocking the road, first cooperating and suddenly reacting violently to the cop's appearance, and finally shooting the tazer. The latter was the one step too far in this stepdance to doom.

If you play with fire, sometimes things start burning. The situation escalated and went wrong. Brown stuff happens. But I cannot completely blame the cop. One may argue that he should have fired with aim to hurt and only to stop the other - but has anyone said he did not do that? He reacted very fast, but I cannot accuse him for doing so. The first shot was fired by the now dead suspcect. Psychology cliocks in, self-preservation instinct, stress, adrenline pumping, it all came together.

This is not another Chauvin-like case, not at all. It just a case that cooked over. Brown stuff happens. No police brutalizing here. Just a cop in self-defence and a situation that detoriated extremely quickly. An exmination and disciplinary measures maybe are a must, of course, yes. But already charging him with murder? I object.

[Skybird]

Some thoughts

Isn't it possible to develop some kind of a non-deadly weapon where the person is being paralysed by some poison, which doesn't damage the persons heart, liver, kidney and so on. I'm not talking about the taser they have today.
Like some of the poison our animal use in the nature, but made non-deadly.

Remember a doctor saying in Danish news some years ago, this Taser can be deadly if the person who get hit by it, have a bad heart.

Just a thought.

Another thing.
It seems like every statue have to be demolished whether the history behind them is good or bad

Markus
Of course there are such weapon, but whether they are practical to use in everyday duty is something different. American police gets accused of tazering way too much and way too easily, that is correct, but I cannot see that being the case in the videos we have in this case.

[mapuc]

A Danish news paper had an article about some meeting between the Council in Chicago and 50 wards (I think it was what they called)
This meeting shouldn't have been released to the public..it have.

Only English version I could find is this

This is far worse than it was in 1968,' said Alderman Ed Burke, who was elected to the City Council in 1969, as he warned that vigilantes could take matters into their own hands.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8403347/Chicago-Mayor-Lori-Lightfoot-says-rioters-f-ing-lawless-meeting-panicked-officials.html

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

You honestly think that a population that by majority is not black but where racism is present and some would say: prominent, and a police force that by 50+% is black, does not create new problems? Well, I think it would. In no time.

Well, 50% of crime is caused by black men so why not 50% of all police forces being manned by black officers? I don't have a problem with getting stopped by a black officer, have had it happen in the past. But wait, oh yeah, I wasn't inebriated, I don't have a criminal record, I don't have multiple outstanding warrants, I don't give the officer a lot of hostility and argument... I don't fight them or try to punch them or grab their weapons.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that most of the people getting shot would have the same experience when they encounter LEO if they behaved the same way.


[QUOTE=Armistead;2677928]When I look at stats, most of what I'm seeing is a big circular jerk off of passing the blame backwards.

Blacks are shot at a rate 2-3 times higher than whites by police officers, but the reasoning is said 13% of blacks commit over 50% of violent crimes.. so more police interaction. Then comes the argument that blacks are profiled, arrested and charged more than whites, thus a much higher unfair crime stat than whites, but then stats police are called into black communities via 911 at a much higher rate than white communities.


Part of the problem is obviously the news agencies. Every day when we turn on the local Houston news, it's the Black Men Crime Hour", that's all they show. Black men breaking into a cell phone store and beating the living crap out of some girl, black men shooting each other outside a club, black men stealing a car. etc. When they show a Mexican or White guy, it's pretty amazing. Haven't ever seen an Asian guy, except that fat one in North Korea, and that's not really local.



agreed, but looking for solutions through the racism prism limits the solutions available to us.

You want to fix this crap, it's simple, layout clear standards & procedures police must follow all the time, and when they deviate, they need to be held to account.

Well, to be fair, this problem has been presented through the prism of racism, wouldn't you say? Black lives matter?

We should have clear standards? We already have those. This is the United States and each state accredits their own agencies and laws very in every state. In TX you need TCOLE certification. Back in 1990, that was 15 weeks and I am sure it is more now. 18 weeks? Once you leave the academy and go on the street, there was 15 additional weeks of field training. Again that has probably increased. What is the magic # if 30 weeks out of 52 is not enough?

Maybe some of the standards need to change. It sounds like the protesters and much of the "resist arrest" sympathizers essentially want to go to the honor system. If a suspect resists, the officer should step back and tell the fleeing criminal, "Ok, sir, come by the courthouse when you get time and we can finish this". :haha:

[Onkel Neal]

There are two videos, one from the police car and one from the building's wall or entrance. The second shows how he struggled, ran with the tazer in his hand, and while running he aimed backward, and fired, you can see the dart and the cable flashing through the air over the cop's head. You ana see that then the cop pulled his pistol or colt formt e holster (not before!) and fired three shots in qwucik succession. The videos I saw just after my first comment on Atlanata, when typign my first reply, I had not seen them, they were released later, I have seen them since then.

Honestly said, I would have probably reacted the very same way: I get fired on by some rhino? I bring effect on the guy as fast as I can so he must stop. A military-trained person maybe would have done not 3 quick shots, but two quick shots as fast as possible on the "centre of mass" to quickly get - unaimed but certain - effect and supressing the target, and then having won the time for a more controlled third shot.

The man should have not started a struggle, but that still was not what got him into trouble. The real trouble was that he FIRED at the direction of the cop. That's when my humour would have immediately - and at the latest - come to an end, and the cop obviously ticked the same way.

Sorry, I cannot condemn this man. The situaiton, the quickness of situation unfolding, the knowledge of the man being under alcohol influence, the weapon fired at him - the officer acted much by reflex and self-preserving training, I think. I cannot completely condemn him. Even more so since it was reported that he had a clean service reputation, no questionable incidents, some media reported.

Did the dead man deserve death in all this? No. But he plays a role in why things escalaed, because it were his decisions, to drink, to sit in a car with alcohol, falling asleep and blocking the road, first cooperating and suddenly reacting violently to the cop's appearance, and finally shooting the tazer. The latter was the one step too far in this stepdance to doom.
.

I like how you see this. Best comment so far imo.

[Rockstar]

Some thoughts

Isn't it possible to develop some kind of a non-deadly weapon where the person is being paralysed by some poison, which doesn't damage the persons heart, liver, kidney and so on. I'm not talking about the taser they have today.
Like some of the poison our animal use in the nature, but made non-deadly.

Remember a doctor saying in Danish news some years ago, this Taser can be deadly if the person who get hit by it, have a bad heart.

Just a thought.

Another thing.
It seems like every statue have to be demolished whether the history behind them is good or bad

Markus


No officer is ever taught to shoot anyone to kill them. If a someone discharges their firearm it is to stop the commission of a crime which warrants the use of deadly force. Deadly force is a force which may cause serious bodily injury or death.

As far as 'non-deadly' force goes. Its been awhile, but I'm only aware of verbal commands, soft empty hand control, hard empty hand control, and intermediary weapons such as CURB-60, Pepper Spray, or a baton. All of which require very close contact which is something you really want to avoid.

But sometimes even the use of non deadly force can cause serious bodily injury or death. Just ask that 75 year old man that was shoved backwards. That officer used non deadly force and things went from bad to worse pretty damn quick when the old man fell and cracked his skull open. Instead of acting like a goon squad, if those officers had a plan to address the situation they encountered and a good leader to maintain control of his officers, things could have turned out much differently.


As for the latest shooting. That guy got what he deserved.

[Mr Quatro]

They just reported in the news that the suspect stole a taser and ran away, when he was shot dead. Where is this evidence, for any scenario?

Go to MSNBC they showed over and over Saturday night 24hrs after the attack

The man did indeed steal a taser from one cop that was left behind and fired it while running behind him at another cop who dropped his taser pulled his gun and shot him three time.

Let the jury decide ... the policeman will probably get away with it as being very close to self defence.

Stuff happens when your afraid :yep:

[Rockstar]

Also, should add there is nobody that good who could place a shot just too wound someone either. You could shoot'em in the butt and that bullet could ricochet off the hipbone into the abdomen thru the heart and exit the arm pit.

[Cybermat47]

Maybe some of the standards need to change. It sounds like the protesters and much of the "resist arrest" sympathizers essentially want to go to the honor system. If a suspect resists, the officer should step back and tell the fleeing criminal, "Ok, sir, come by the courthouse when you get time and we can finish this". :haha:

George Floyd didn’t resist arrest. Yet he was still slowly choked to death.

Justine Diamond didn’t resist arrest. Yet she was still shot to death by the very police she’d called to the scene for assistance.

Philando Castile didn’t resist arrest. Yet he was still shot after properly announcing to police that he was exercising his 2nd Amendment rights and concealed carry permit.

How are either of those cases justifiable? Seriously, tell me how there was no other possible outcome than death.

“Exercising our right to bear arms should not translate to a death sentence over something so trivial as a traffic stop for a broken tail light, and we are going to watch this case with a magnifying glass.”
- 2nd Amendment Foundation response to the shooting of Philando Castile

[Onkel Neal]

George Floyd didn’t resist arrest. Yet he was still slowly choked to death.

Justine Diamond didn’t resist arrest. Yet she was still shot to death by the very police she’d called to the scene for assistance.

Philando Castile didn’t resist arrest. Yet he was still shot after properly announcing to police that he was exercising his 2nd Amendment rights and concealed carry permit.



I only know about the first case and I agree, that was very clearly police malfeasance.

[MaDef]

Also, should add there is nobody that good who could place a shot just too wound someone either. You could shoot'em in the butt and that bullet could ricochet off the hipbone into the abdomen thru the heart and exit the arm pit.
That can't be right, I see it happen in the movies all the time. The "Waco Kid" did it in Blazing Saddles.:up:

[em2nought]

When I look at stats, most of what I'm seeing is a big circular jerk off of passing the blame backwards.



What's going on here is that large numbers of black voters were shifting to supporting Trump, and the other side didn't like it one bit. You must not leave the democrat plantation or else.

[Mr Quatro]

These protesters need a hurricane, but it's not August yet :o

[Reece]

Where's August when you need him!!! :D

[Col7777]

I stumbled on this today, I'm in the UK so forgive my ignorance here, I read in the comments that CNN have a habit of reporting fake news or like many others push their agenda on you.
Anyway in this clip it seems the CNN guy Done Lemon didn't like what the Sheriff was saying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRen8nI8_aM

[vienna]

Trump has never had any appreciably strong support among Black voters and the truth of the matter is he is losing whatever support he did have due to his own fault; if ever there was a tone-deaf resident of the Oval Office, it has to be Trump; by playing and pandering to his base continually, he is pushing whatever non-GOP marginal voter groups that may have voted for him away and into the Biden camp; the SS Trumptanic just keeps on at full speed crashing into and caroming off the icebergs...





<O>

[u crank]

Trump has never had any appreciably strong support among Black voters and the truth of the matter is he is losing whatever support he did have due to his own fault;

This of course is not an anomaly.

A review of the Roper Center for Public Opinion Research's collection of exit poll data for recent presidential elections shows that the black share of the vote given to the Republican candidate has averaged 10% since 1976. This ranges from a low of 4% for John McCain in 2008 (when he ran against Barack Obama) to 17% for Gerald Ford in 1976 (when he ran for re-election against Jimmy Carter). Since 1984, the average black share of the vote for the GOP candidate has been 9%. George W. Bush averaged 10% of the black vote in his two elections; his father, George H. W. Bush, averaged 10.5% in his two elections; and Ronald Reagan averaged 11.5% in his two elections.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/268517/analyzing-black-support-president-trump.aspx

[vienna]

That's fake news!! Everybody knows the Blacks love Trump !! Trump repeatedly says so, he's never, ever wrong, and the Trumpettes nod their lemming bobble-headed approval; Trump is even more popular than Lincoln and the best President for Blacks in the entire history of the US... and the world!!... :03: :har:





<O>

[u crank]

That's fake news!! Everybody knows the Blacks love Trump !! Trump repeatedly says so, he's never, ever wrong, and the Trumpettes nod their lemming bobble-headed approval; Trump is even more popular than Lincoln and the best President for Blacks in the entire history of the US... and the world!!... :03: :har:

Comedy is always a good response when you don't actually have a response.

I laughed. :D

[Skybird]

The danger is not Trump loosing black voters, the danger is that last time many Blacks did not go voting, but if this time they do, they will give a strong ballot stimulus to the Democrats.

The criticism of the police: there are black sheep in there, I think that is obvious, and these spoil the reputation of many more than just themselves, unfortunately. However that the left uses opposition protests to generally demonise them, is true as well. In principle the same things happen in Germany as well, though here the confrontation left/anti captialism versus establishment/capitalism is more obvious.

The crime quality in America probably is also different than over here, and the quantity of severe crime including severe physical violence probably also is higher, though it seems to me that we are catching up on that, especially targetted violence against the police itself, thanks to our cultural enrichment programs, and our deep-rooting beleive that violenc ecommitted by left and anarchist groups is acceptable while vilence from right groups is ver ymuch less so. We use double standards on violence done by left and right attackers.

I still think that when I hear US cops are trained just 17-19 weeks on average, there is more quality to be gained if extensively improving that, but I think that turning the US police into a copy of European polices probably would not work, since the US police must dela with a more brutal environment and thus must take a more robust stand itself, too, must be capable to do so at least.

I hear what that sherrif above is saying. Seems to be a reasonable good man. And i probably would not have had that self-control he showed with that moderator., who is a politcally correctly trained poodle, it seems to me. Much of our media guys over here in state TV are like that, too, loving opposing opinions to death by the endlessly patient loving embrace of the anaconda.

[Catfish]

@Skybird While it is not all wrong what you wrote, i definitely do not agree that the policeman shooting the running man three times in the back can ever get through with "self defence". The suspect had no deadly weapon and he did not "deliberately aim", he shot over his shoulder with a taser while running.
I will never buy that, and i guess at least 80 percent of the population will not as well.
"He deserved death"? He deserved punishment and penalty, but surely not death. The US is still a constitutional state.

[Skybird]

There is the psychological momentum that you ignore, but it must be taken into account. Fact is the man fired a tazer at a police officer and not before then the police pulled its firearms.

I am not willing to demand that cops must throw themsleves at a violent person's mercy just so to save the interests of said person and put it before their own interest. Adrenaline, the quickness of events detoriating, the suprising sudden outtburst of violenc, alcohol and a weapon that is meant to put you out of action for sure - it all is a bit too much if coming alltogether. A police tazer is a potent wepaon to knock you out, its not the same thing oike the toys that were on sale in german shops until some years ago when they got banned - the last avaialble models were muscle massage toys, knocking out nobody, they were regulated to complete inffeciency and probably only would have turned any attacker even more angry. A police tazer is somethign that knocks you out of your shoes. And is very painful as well.

Its not as if the man spilled just some water with a water pistol. It was the now dead man who escalated the situation, lets not forget that. I also am not inside the cop'S head, do not know what he was thinking. Did he shoot with the intentin to kill? Did he just get off three rounds as quickly as possible and unaimed, only pointing vaguely at the amns direction, when realising that he was beign fired on with a tazer? Did he aim intentionally to kill or just to hurt and the action went wrong?


It all went very, very quick, and that took its toll.

[Onkel Neal]

Comedy is always a good response when you don't actually have a response.

I laughed. :D


Lol, too early in the morning for this :D

[vienna]

Comedy is always a good response when you don't actually have a response.

...





Well, we finally have an explanation for so very many of your posts... :haha:





<O>

[u crank]

Lol, too early in the morning for this :D

I was on my second cup of coffee.

Well, we finally have an explanation for so very many of your posts... :haha:

Oooo .... that was a really good one. I'll try to do better.

:03:

[mapuc]

I don't know how an American cop is trained to react.

Here in Denmark and Sweden a policeman is trained to without thinking..shooting a person in his leg..if this doesn't help then s/he can choose a target above a persons hips.

Shooting a person in their back can never be a case of self defense.
Absolutely not with three shoots.

A shot in his thigh muscle would most likely have neutralized him.

Markus

[Commander Wallace]

@Skybird While it is not all wrong what you wrote, i definitely do not agree that the policeman shooting the running man three times in the back can ever get through with "self defence". The suspect had no deadly weapon and he did not "deliberately aim", he shot over his shoulder with a taser while running.
I will never buy that, and i guess at least 80 percent of the population will not as well.
"He deserved death"? He deserved punishment and penalty, but surely not death. The US is still a constitutional state.




Oh no, you're wrong, Catfish. The man did indeed attack the police officer. If you play the video backwards, the man can clearly be seen running backwards at the police officer and therefore, the police officer " feared for his life." :Kaleun_Sick:
This is of course the argument I expect to see the police use. :doh: They will of course say it's a matter of perspective.

[Dowly]

I don't know how an American cop is trained to react.

Here in Denmark and Sweden a policeman is trained to without thinking..shooting a person in his leg..if this doesn't help then s/he can choose a target above a persons hips.

Shooting a person in their back can never be a case of self defense.
Absolutely not with three shoots.

A shot in his thigh muscle would most likely have neutralized him.

Markus
Same here in Finland. Just yesterday a police officer had to take a shot at someone who was armed (turned out to be a BB gun later); one bullet to thigh was enough to subdue him.

[Mr Quatro]

Oh no, you're wrong, Catfish. The man did indeed attack the police officer. If you play the video backwards, the man can clearly be seen running backwards at the police officer and therefore, the police officer " feared for his life." :Kaleun_Sick:
This is of course the argument I expect to see the police use. :doh: They will of course say it's a matter of perspective.

Speaking of perspective being shot in the back 3 times is never a very good defensive argument for the offending party.

Especially in the old west days :o

[Bilge_Rat]

well, anyone who has received actual gun training will let you know shooting someone in the leg or the shoulder or the hand to disarm is a hollywood fantasy.

A handgun is a very inaccurate weapon, especially when your adrenalin is sky high and the target is moving. Trying to shoot someone in the leg or the shoulder or the hand etc., will most likely result in a miss and you dead if the target has a firearm.

Add to that the fact that humans are difficult to incapacitate. Except for a lucky shot to say the brain or heart, a human will become incapacitated by passing out from loss of blood which usually require putting a lot of bullets in your target to speed up the blood loss.

So standard firearm training dictates that you should only fire if your life is in danger and then you have to put your target down quickly, which means firing center mass continuously until the target is down and no longer a threat.

oh and by the way, you shoot someone in the thigh and hit the femoral artery, he or she will bleed out and die as efficiently as if you cut their throat, so no, there is no safe zone.

[Platapus]

I am surprised that any fire arm training recommends shooting someone in the leg. Legs are hard to hit, especially when they moving, which legs tend to do a lot.



Shoot for center of mass and only in the gravest extreme after all other options have been tried.



The shoot first- establish probable cause later attitude needs to change with some police officers.

[mapuc]

The have been a case here in Denmark, where a person was shot in his leg.
This happened on June 5.

A Danish and a Swedish police main target on a person is his or her thigh/leg.

Furthermore before a police have to take such a move a warning shot shall be given.

According to statistic from the Danish Police they had used their handguns in 394 cases. Shot was fired in 33 of these cases and in 16 of these cases a warning shots was fired. This was in 2017.

There have been cases where the police have shot another person in the head or in other vital areas of the body.

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

I don't pretend to be an expert on Sweden, but if I read this article, the Swedish police seems to follow the same protocol we use here:

Sweden grapples with fatal police shooting of man with Down's syndrome


Holgersson’s point of view appears to be supported by statements such one from an officer commenting on Eric Torell’s death. “If we encounter something we believe is a firearm, then we will shoot to eliminate the threat,” the officer told Swedish media. “You do not do this by hitting someone in the leg. We aim for the chest; that’s how we’ve practised.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/02/sweden-grapples-with-fatal-police-shooting-of-man-with-downs-syndrome

[mapuc]

I don't pretend to be an expert on Sweden, but if I read this article, the Swedish police seems to follow the same protocol we use here:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/02/sweden-grapples-with-fatal-police-shooting-of-man-with-downs-syndrome

I remember this case, it made the Swedish people very angry and they got even more angry, when the police authorities freed the cop who shot this young man with downs syndrome.
There wasn't any riot if you wonder.

As I wrote in my last post
"There have been cases where the police have shot another person in the head or in other vital areas of the body."
And this goes for both the Danish and the Swedish police.

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

Same here in Finland. Just yesterday a police officer had to take a shot at someone who was armed (turned out to be a BB gun later); one bullet to thigh was enough to subdue him.

the Atlanta cop was aiming for the suspects right buttock but, well you know, missed

[Jimbuna]

Perhaps firearms training in the UK was different back in the day but we were told to aim for the largest area which was the torso.

[August]

the Atlanta cop was aiming for the suspects right buttock but, well you know, missed


Yeah he didn't have Hollywood movie aiming skills.

[em2nought]

I've never had any firearms training where you aimed for anything other than center mass. Do they sell targets with legs? :har: It's starting to sound like we're gonna take advice from people who are talking out of their ar$e. Pretty soon the cops will be driving florist trucks instead of Police cars.


There is absolutely no way I would want to be a cop now. I guess the left got education, Hollywood, and the media, and now they'll get the police.


The right's biggest mistake was in not putting more of their people in the field of education.

[mapuc]

I've never had any firearms training where you aimed for anything other than center mass. Do they sell targets with legs? :har: It's starting to sound like we're gonna take advice from people who are talking out of their ar$e. Pretty soon the cops will be driving florist trucks instead of Police cars.


There is absolutely no way I would want to be a cop now. I guess the left got education, Hollywood, and the media, and now they'll get the police.


The right's biggest mistake was in not putting more of their people in the field of education.

And you're are correct sir, aiming after a suspects legs is not as easy as I thought it was.
My former comments was based on several hours of tv-documentaries about the Danish police in education, work in the field and the latest 5 years event-where three or was it four suspect had been hit in the leg Thigh I think it was.

I also changed the search criteria and asked how many people have been killed by the Danish police and I found a report, where I copied what I think would be the best part.

"The number of reports on the use of firearms during the whole period 1985-2002 fluctuated between 196 (in 1998) and 304 (1992), often with very large fluctuations from year to year.
On average, made 247 reports per. year. In 2002, the figure was 269, roughly the same number as in 1985. There is no clear trend in the use of firearms by the police during the investigation period. This is remarkable because
Danish policemen do not therefore often feel the need to protect themselves with firearms at the beginning of the new millennium when compared with the latter half of the 1980s.
- Police have throughout the period shot and hit a total of 90 people, of whom 78 were injured and 12 died as a result of the shots.

Markus

[iambecomelife]

well, anyone who has received actual gun training will let you know shooting someone in the leg or the shoulder or the hand to disarm is a hollywood fantasy.

A handgun is a very inaccurate weapon, especially when your adrenalin is sky high and the target is moving. Trying to shoot someone in the leg or the shoulder or the hand etc., will most likely result in a miss and you dead if the target has a firearm.

Add to that the fact that humans are difficult to incapacitate. Except for a lucky shot to say the brain or heart, a human will become incapacitated by passing out from loss of blood which usually require putting a lot of bullets in your target to speed up the blood loss.

So standard firearm training dictates that you should only fire if your life is in danger and then you have to put your target down quickly, which means firing center mass continuously until the target is down and no longer a threat.

oh and by the way, you shoot someone in the thigh and hit the femoral artery, he or she will bleed out and die as efficiently as if you cut their throat, so no, there is no safe zone.

I am surprised that any fire arm training recommends shooting someone in the leg. Legs are hard to hit, especially when they moving, which legs tend to do a lot.



Shoot for center of mass and only in the gravest extreme after all other options have been tried.



The shoot first- establish probable cause later attitude needs to change with some police officers.


I remember one incident (can't find the link) where a man was getting a warrant served by a cop, and immediately started shooting at the cop from his front door. The guy's young daughter was behind him. The officer returned fire, did not make a center mass shot, and shot him in the arm - with the result that the bullet passed through him and killed the little girl. A tragic situation all around (and depending on the laws, the father may have been charged with Felony Murder). Of course, in the movies the good guys wing someone in the arm or leg with no consequences. :-?

[Bilge_Rat]

The other problem with trying to compare the experience of police in Europe with the USA is the gun ownership issue.

In the USA, any prudent cop that makes a routine traffic stop has to assume the suspect probably has a weapon on him.

In most European countries where gun ownership is restricted, I would guess police officers do not have the same concern. I know many police officers in the UK do not even carry firearms.

Obviously, the interaction with a potential suspect is not the same when you go in assuming he/she has a handgun.

[Jimbuna]

I know many police officers in the UK do not even carry firearms.



A little under 10,000 but training is arguably a lot longer than most other countries and arguably second to none imho.

[Cybermat47]

The other problem with trying to compare the experience of police in Europe with the USA is the gun ownership issue.

In the USA, any prudent cop that makes a routine traffic stop has to assume the suspect probably has a weapon on him.

In most European countries where gun ownership is restricted, I would guess police officers do not have the same concern. I know many police officers in the UK do not even carry firearms.

Obviously, the interaction with a potential suspect is not the same when you go in assuming he/she has a handgun.

Yep, very good points. One more dangerous factor to go into the mix.

With the increased public mistrust and fear of the police since cases such as George Floyd’s murder, we could be seeing more and more people carrying firearms with the idea of not having to rely on the police anymore, or out of fear of police brutality. So then you’ll have traffic stops turn into a situation where two armed people are wary of the other and looking for signs of danger, and one wrong move by either party could potentially result in a shooting that just amplifies the “us vs them” mentality.

Given that I believe that the police should have the ability to defend themselves if necessary, and that ordinary citizens should be able to own firearms for self defence if they are of sound mind and have no criminal record, a reformation of the police in the USA in order to combat police brutality seems to be the only real resolution, and one that is long overdue.

The executive order issued by Trump seems to be a good move (yes, I can appreciate when he does the right thing, but I still don’t like him), so hopefully police brutality will start to decrease until it’s nothing but a painful memory.

[Commander Wallace]

Yep, very good points. One more dangerous factor to go into the mix.

With the increased public mistrust and fear of the police since cases such as George Floyd’s murder, we could be seeing more and more people carrying firearms with the idea of not having to rely on the police anymore, or out of fear of police brutality. So then you’ll have traffic stops turn into a situation where two armed people are wary of the other and looking for signs of danger, and one wrong move by either party could potentially result in a shooting that just amplifies the “us vs them” mentality.

Given that I believe that the police should have the ability to defend themselves if necessary, and that ordinary citizens should be able to own firearms for self defence if they are of sound mind and have no criminal record, a reformation of the police in the USA in order to combat police brutality seems to be the only real resolution, and one that is long overdue.

The executive order issued by Trump seems to be a good move (yes, I can appreciate when he does the right thing, but I still don’t like him), so hopefully police brutality will start to decrease until it’s nothing but a painful memory.


All good points.:yep: The problem with the executive orders by Trump is they don't go far enough. After reviewing these Executive Orders, they don't mention criminal sanctions with regards to police officers who also violate the law.

Atlanta Police officer Garrett Rolfe has been charged with felony murder and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, in the shooting death of Rayshard Brooks. Rolfe can be seen in the video kicking Rayshard Brooks after he had been shot twice in the back. Devin Brosnan, who has indicated he will testify against Rolfe can be seen standing on Rayshard Brooks, as well.

Quote: Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard announced 11 charges against former officer Garrett Rolfe, including felony murder and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, in the shooting death of Rayshard Brooks. The felony murder charge carries the possible sentence of life without parole or the death penalty. Brosnan faces one to 20 years for the aggravated assault charge.


https://www.wabe.org/atlanta-awaits-decision-on-charges-against-officer-in-rayshard-brooks-killing/


https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/17/879509659/former-atlanta-police-officer-who-shot-rayshard-brooks-charged-with-felony-murde

While Rayshard Brooks was initially cooperative, He may well have experienced what you mentioned, a severe case of mistrust of the police. The Police chief has resigned and a number of officers have had " sick outs " in protest of the filed charges. This is an indication that officers will not follow any executive orders or legislation regarding their policing. Legislation needs to be enacted to clear the way for police officers to more easily be prosecuted for any criminal actions.

[Skybird]

While initially it was reported the copy in Atlanata had a clean record, it seem that in the past couple of years there had been a few complaints and problems that led to examinations, but no serious disciplinary consequences, I now read. At least his record is not that clean anymore. But its hard to judge how serious these past stories were. The language used in office files can both hide and blow up things and details, while maintainign a sterile, cold tone. I still do not follow the charges for murder. Use of excessive force or somerthing like that it should be. Murder...? Murder needs the plan, the motive, the intention to kill. C'mon on. I also think the suspect probably should have just been left to walk home, maybe getting a later charge for alcohol related offence, if that is what they found, but I think it was all harmless - until he suddenly flipped out and fired with that tazer. Sudden, super-fast escalation.



This story just went bad for everybody.

[Bilge_Rat]

the problem with " let him walk home" is what happens if instead he gets into another car, gets into an accident and kills other people, then the cops would have been held liable. It is a lose-lose proposition.

Once they found out he was impaired, they had no other choice, they had to arrest him.

[Skybird]

Okay, that reasoning makes sense.

[u crank]

the problem with " let him walk home" is what happens if instead he gets into another car, gets into an accident and kills other people, then the cops would have been held liable. It is a lose-lose proposition.

Once they found out he was impaired, they had no other choice, they had to arrest him.

Well it's not to hard to predict the future. Well meaning and qualified people will start to see law enforcement as a career that is just not worth it. And what that means is that the less qualified and totally unsuited for a career carrying a gun, for a lack of personal, will become more prevalent and the cycle will continue.

Not sure what the answer is. Robocop maybe?

[Onkel Neal]

And you're are correct sir, aiming after a suspects legs is not as easy as I thought it was.
My former comments was based on several hours of tv-documentaries about the Danish police in education, work in the field and the latest 5 years event-where three or was it four suspect had been hit in the leg Thigh I think it was.


Markus

If it's a static situation, in good light, where the suspect is standing still and the police have a good clear shot and a wounded perp doesn't pose a threat, maybe they would try to take him down in the leg.

But when it's night, and the perp has been punching you, grabbing weapons off your belt, is running like an NFL linebacker and then turns and takes aim at you with maybe your taser, which means if he tases you he could walk right up and take your service weapon and shoot you, or maybe it's a .38 revolver you missed when you conducted a non-cooperative pat down: in this situation just shoot the fool.

There are thousands of cases where black people interact with the police every day in the US and nothing goes south because most black folks are intelligent, reasonable people. The ones we see getting shot are the knuckleheads and criminals (in most cases).

It's like the 7:45 morning subway commute. The train arrives at the designated time, people file in and take their places, the door closes and the train begins to depart the station. The guy who comes running up late and misses the train, well, he missed the train, everyone else seemed to have no problem.

[Rockstar]

the problem with " let him walk home" is what happens if instead he gets into another car, gets into an accident and kills other people, then the cops would have been held liable. It is a lose-lose proposition.

Once they found out he was impaired, they had no other choice, they had to arrest him.




Not necessarily, They had a choice they always have a choice. As a teenager I remember being told to poor out the contents of a bottle on the ground and find a ride home. Seems to me cops were there to keep the peace not to arrest and jail everyone.

[Commander Wallace]

If it's a static situation, in good light, where the suspect is standing still and the police have a good clear shot and a wounded perp doesn't pose a threat, maybe they would try to take him down in the leg.

But when it's night, and the perp has been punching you, grabbing weapons off your belt, is running like an NFL linebacker and then turns and takes aim at you with maybe your taser, which means if he tases you he could walk right up and take your service weapon and shoot you, or maybe it's a .38 revolver you missed when you conducted a non-cooperative pat down: in this situation just shoot the fool.

There are thousands of cases where black people interact with the police every day in the US and nothing goes south because most black folks are intelligent, reasonable people. The ones we see getting shot are the knuckleheads and criminals (in most cases).

It's like the 7:45 morning subway commute. The train arrives at the designated time, people file in and take their places, the door closes and the train begins to depart the station. The guy who comes running up late and misses the train, well, he missed the train, everyone else seemed to have no problem.


Good point. The problem with leg shots are they can be lethal as well. If the femoral artery in the thigh is shot out, the individual will probably bleed out before help can arrive. It's obvious that good officers have their hands full on a daily basis. I don't envy them and or their jobs.



Well it's not to hard to predict the future. Well meaning and qualified people will start to see law enforcement as a career that is just not worth it. And what that means is that the less qualified and totally unsuited for a career carrying a gun, for a lack of personal, will become more prevalent and the cycle will continue.

Not sure what the answer is. Robocop maybe?

I feel the same as you. It's obvious that mentally deficient people are becoming police officers and many officers regard any regulations on their actions as " politics. " Quite the contrary, for many, it's a matter of life or death.

I suspect the officers that are leaving are those that operate on the fringes of the law and don't know how to operate in a legal fashion. They feel that's it's only a matter of time before they would be charged, criminally. To them, I would say good riddance.

Other good officers that can work within the framework of the law would be well qualified to teach and train other young recruits how to do their job, properly. These training officers would be worth their weight in gold. As you said, Marcel, I'm not sure what the answer is.

[mapuc]

From what I understand is not that the police returned fire and hit him in the back, I think the public fully understand this.

It's these two extra shots and what happened after he had been shot 3 times.
which can give a death sentence.

According to CNN one of the police officer stood on him while dying and then something with

- I got him

I know CNN can't stand Trump, I don't know where their standpoint is when it comes to white police officer.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

You know why Mr Brooks fought the law and the law won?

Mr Brooks was on probation and a DUI would've put him back in prison. :yep:

[iambecomelife]

Well it's not to hard to predict the future. Well meaning and qualified people will start to see law enforcement as a career that is just not worth it. And what that means is that the less qualified and totally unsuited for a career carrying a gun, for a lack of personal, will become more prevalent and the cycle will continue.

Not sure what the answer is. Robocop maybe?


I predict that things will be a lot like my parent's home country. As you said, compassionate, well-meaning citizens will no longer be interested in law enforcement (in the nation where they are from, law enforcement is not a career for respectable people).

-The remaining police will either be demoralized, only interested in keeping their heads down & collecting their pensions, OR the trigger-happy bullies that are part of the current problem.

-There will be de facto "no go" zones where there is a vacuum of authority. Especially in urban areas. (These already exist to a degree in American ghettos, but things will be worse). Living in these areas will be extremely dangerous.

-Gang leaders and/or political bosses will fill this vacuum. People's loyalty will be to these groups and to whatever races/ethnicities etc the gangs represent. Not to the nation. Somewhat like feudalism. The amusing thing about these violent protesters is, they think they can stoke racial tensions/hatred for political gain, and, then once their preferred president is elected, things will get back to normal and we'll all be happy. In reality the current problems may permanently weaken Federal authority. Whether it's Democratic/Republican/whatever.

-Lynchings and vigilante justice will be common, with the different gangs and "big men" instigating things. MULTIPLE people have been lynched in the small Caribbean town where my family is from. With the police either doing nothing or being involved. Expect this to happen in the US.

-The rich will continue to do well, thanks to private security/quasi-governmental entities. A little like what you see in Cyberpunk fiction.

Not a pretty picture, but IMO plausible.

[Onkel Neal]

Growing buzz about NYC cops all going on strike (call off sick) July 4. They're calling it "Independence Day"... :o

[mapuc]

Growing buzz about NYC cops all going on strike (call off sick) July 4. They're calling it "Independence Day"... :o


I have been thinking the same.

Will the Police across USA go into a strike/call of sick if these two police officer gets a verdict(the police from Minneapolis and Atlanta)

If so, does anyone know what will happen in your society ?
Will crime explode ?

Or are they like the police in Denmark and Sweden forbidden to strike, since they have an important task in the society ?

Markus

[Platapus]

As an aside, I wonder how far he could have run if he was that drunk. Drunks can fight but I don't think they can run fast for very far.

[em2nought]

Will the Police across USA go into a strike/call of sick if these two police officer gets a verdict(the police from Minneapolis and Atlanta)

Markus


There is no one in the United States who will come down with the blue flu for the officer from Minneapolis.

[Onkel Neal]

There is no one in the United States who will come down with the blue flu for the officer from Minneapolis.


I agree. But the Atlanta officer, that's a whole nother story. Can you imagine if all the cops in NYC stay home, and the antifa and BLM agitators organize a mass riot? Take over the city?

[Cybermat47]

I agree. But the Atlanta officer, that's a whole nother story. Can you imagine if all the cops in NYC stay home, and the antifa and BLM agitators organize a mass riot? Take over the city?

I think you’re seriously overestimating how powerful antifa is, and the amount of people willing to go down an extremist route.

Antifa is a small, scattered, very loose and not at all organised on a large scale movement that just gets turned into some massive, powerful force by the media. The most dangerous thing they’ve done is bash someone with a bike lock which, while an extremely scummy thing to do, isn’t going to start the 2nd American Civil War anytime soon. Especially seeing as the bike lock fugitive of Berkeley has been arrested without some massive antifa insurgency arising to free him.

Most of the time, the worst thing American antifa do is to get upset about the American flag existing. And in my country, all they’ve done so far is counterprotest Nazis, which I’m fine with.

[Jimbuna]

I agree. But the Atlanta officer, that's a whole nother story. Can you imagine if all the cops in NYC stay home, and the antifa and BLM agitators organize a mass riot? Take over the city?

Should it happen it would crate absolute chaos and no doubt the POTUS would call in the national guard and possibly even the army.

[iambecomelife]

Should it happen it would crate absolute chaos and no doubt the POTUS would call in the national guard and possibly even the army.

I suspect it will be like the police strike in Boston in 1919. The state will probably use the National Guard (as you said) to keep things under control short term. Just like Governor Coolidge did back then.

Afterwards, they will probably replenish their ranks with new officers (although just like in 1919, the affected city will have to pay extra money for the replacements).

In Boston the whole strike ended with a whimper, and there really wasn't a huge wave of violence....mostly kids breaking windows, and a few people shot by jumpy soldiers. I think the same thing will happen in Atlanta; a bit of extra crime, but eventually things drift back to normal as the police and leaders make mutual concessions. I suspect that the DA and/or whoever charged the officer in Atlanta will be fired or "kicked upstairs" with some faux-promotion, as a concession to the police.

Long term? My earlier prediction stands. This is not a good situation....and is probably part of a gradual slide towards mediocrity in terms of United States quality of life. The police will continue to feel like they are scapegoats, and the protesters will continue to feel like police are institutionally racist.

[Onkel Neal]

You're probably right, except they didn't have social media in 1919.

[Mr Quatro]

You're probably right, except they didn't have social media in 1919.

And just how would you know that Mr Onkel Neal ... :D

[mapuc]

You're probably right, except they didn't have social media in 1919.

I guess they used a prolog to today's social media in other words they used jungle drums.

Markus

[iambecomelife]

I called it.

The Police Union in Atlanta has just recommended that they fire the DA responsible for charging the officer who shot Rayshard Brooks. Just as I predicted.

There have been very angry exchanges between the DA's supporters and the union.

The police are pointing out that the DA is suspected of misusing $140,000.00 in government funds (I'm not familiar with this case, so I will reserve judgment).

Regardless, it's obvious that relations between the DA in Atlanta and the Union have broken down quite badly.

[Dowly]

And just how would you know that Mr Onkel Neal ... :D
Lack of hashtags in contemporary writings.

[August]

I called it.


You did. :salute:

[Kongo Otto]

Should it happen it would crate absolute chaos and no doubt the POTUS would call in the national guard and possibly even the army.


Why should POTUS call in the NG? That could be done by Governor Cuomo and also there's still the NY State Police which the Governor could bring in too.


I called it.

The Police Union in Atlanta has just recommended that they fire the DA responsible for charging the officer who shot Rayshard Brooks. Just as I predicted.

There have been very angry exchanges between the DA's supporters and the union.

The police are pointing out that the DA is suspected of misusing $140,000.00 in government funds (I'm not familiar with this case, so I will reserve judgment).

Regardless, it's obvious that relations between the DA in Atlanta and the Union have broken down quite badly.


IIRC, there's an ongoing GBI investigation against said DA and IIRC again it's also an election year.
Tbh, after watching the whole 26 minute video of the officers talking in a very calm manner with R. Brooks until he snapped and went for the officers Taser and also watching the video from the Wendy's i fail to see the merit of an felony murder charge. Murder 3 , maybe, but felony murder, nope I don't think so.
Also worth mentioning that the GBI tweeted that the DA was charging the officers involved while the GBI still was concluding its investigation.

[Onkel Neal]

And just how would you know that Mr Onkel Neal ... :D

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1443034890ra/16308860.gif

[Kongo Otto]

CNN reports that arsonist who burned down Atlanta Wendy's may be linked to Rayshard Brooks.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/20/us/natalie-white-atlanta-arson-wendys-rayshard-brooks/index.html
Suspect Natalie White is allegedly Rayshard Brooks girlfriend.


They also had their first gun related death in the Seattle CHAZ.
CNN reports that violent crowd denied Police entry.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/20/us/seattle-capitol-hill-chop-chaz-shooting/index.html
I have the strange feeling that this CHAZ thing won't end well.

[Skybird]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53145201

I delay my decision on whether I side with the pilot or not, depending on what gets known about him being either a white supremacist or KKK fan, or being a man like myself who is pissed by the simplicity of slogan wars that have taken over ONCE AGAIN an originally just cause.

The described reactions and comments by club staff, tell me about a level of highly biased fixiation and mental simplicity in conditioned auto-reaction mode, that I refuse to automatically agree with them and support them.

Black lives matter, that is right. But white lives matter as well - is that not correct? You see, it all depends on who says it, and in what context. A pissed but else reasonable person, or a white supremacist or provocateur. If the first, I agree with him. If the latter, I say: keelhaul him. Since I do not know about the pilot, who and what he is, I withhold my judgement.

I mean: originally I am absolutely supporting women'S equality before the law. But radical feminism has pushed so far beyond that that now they became discrminating and hating as well - and ruined the originally just cause to a degree that I keep my huge distance to ANY women'S rights movement there is now. Its like this with so many things today. A justz casue in the beginning, and excessively propagating it and turning it into its opppsite instead of seeking balanced moderation and sharing with the opposiiton to it. And the recent anti-police protests have gone far beyond the reaosnable as well in demands now. Even in other coutnries - in germany some Bundestag politicians declared all police to b e racist, and the Tageszeit7ung could write that all policemen are garbage and should be dumped on the disposal site, they would enjoy to be amongst garbage like themsleves anyway. Write a national newspaper over here, though a very stupdi and ultra-left one! And in this climate I am expected by some to support demonstrations against German police violence...?

I do not care that much for black or white. I say: lives matter - if they care for lives of others in return. And I also say: not all people are worth the same, there are good people, there is scum; there are victims of circumstances, and there are others who abuse circumstances to turn others into victims of theirs, and I take offence from seeing this normal differentiation being denied. No human life is of such infinite value that it equals or even surpasses that of the rest of the cosmos.

It depends who the pilot is and what his motive was. That decides whether I would support his action or condemn it. But automatic support for the collectively demanded reflex-like reaction that currently is en vogue? Ask somebody else, but not me, I will say No to that expectation every time. One should not form own opinions in this way, its bad habit and it does not get you very far intellectually. Opinion should base on thougth and knowledge and information and insight, not on habit, social blackmailing or doing somebody a favour.

[Onkel Neal]

Activist gets a taste of his own medicine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmv8nbO5vKI&feature=emb_logo

[Bilge_Rat]

Garrett Rolfe has been granted bail subject to a $500,000 bond.

[Catfish]

Well i don't understand it, for one the police officer seems to have acted in a similar fashion before and it still is not decided whether this was right or wrong.

How can a routine check for driving under drug influence lead to the death of the primarily unarmed driver? This drug test lasted seven minutes?? Sober or drunk, this would also have made me very "nervous".

[August]

VIRAL VIDEO: Rapper Lord Jamar: Black Lives Matter ‘Not Our Movement,’ ‘Given To Us By George Soros’

“I’m not a Black Lives Matter supporter,” Jamar said in an interview on SCUM.
“You’re not?” the interviewer asked in surprise.
“No, absolutely not,” responded Jamar. “Because it’s not our movement. This is a movement that was given to us by, you know, George Soros and his *******ing boys. Because they saw how things were going and they didn’t want to go back to the 60s to where we started having our own organic movements. That was a big *******ing problem for them. So let’s give the people a movement that we can control. We’ll provide them the leaders and all this type of s**t. That’s what black lives matter is.”





https://www.dailywire.com/news/viral-video-rapper-lord-jamar-black-lives-matter-not-our-movement-given-to-us-by-george-soros?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

[vienna]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/viral-video-rapper-lord-jamar-black-lives-matter-not-our-movement-given-to-us-by-george-soros?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro


The Daily Wire, eh...?...


Wikipedia: The Daily Wire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Wire




Controversies

According to Snopes, "DailyWire.com has a tendency to share stories that are taken out of context or not verified", including reports on protesters digging up Confederate graves, Democratic congresspeople refusing to stand for a fallen Navy SEAL's widow, and Harvard University holding segregated commencement ceremonies. According to FactCheck.org, The Daily Wire incorrectly credited Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson with finding over $500 billion in accounting errors made by the Obama administration. FactCheck.org reported that the errors were discovered and published by HUD's independent inspector general before Carson became secretary.

The Daily Wire has published articles expressing skepticism that climate change is occurring and that humans contribute to climate change. Climate scientists have described the articles as being inaccurate and misleading.

The investigative website Popular Information accused The Daily Wire in October 2019 of violating Facebook's policies by creating 14 anonymous pages promoting its content exclusively to boost engagement. A new Facebook policy might force them to add their ownership to their pages. Facebook told Popular Information that it would take no action against The Daily Wire.



That source is so full of holes, its not even watertight, much less airtight; the publication; Daily Wire is little more than a sensationalist, Right-Wing rumor/conspiracy mill; the questionable nature of its 'reliable' source. rapper Lord Jamar, is further tainted given the rapper's history as a crack cocaine dealer...





<O>

[Onkel Neal]

Haha, you can't this stuff up.



The teenagers shot in Seattle’s Capitol Hill Organized Protest area earlier this week were being chased after stealing a Jeep at knifepoint — and one sobbed, “I don’t want to die” after the bullets started flying, according to a report.

Antonio Mays Jr., 16, said that he and a 14-year-old boy were being chased and shot at early Monday after they “beat someone up and took” their vehicle at knifepoint, his so-called “street sister,” Ciara Walker, told DailyMail.com.

Walker told the pair to head to the police precinct in the CHOP zone, telling them, “You will be safe there — nothing will happen to you.”

“Next thing I heard the crashing and pop pop pop, and one of them screamed, ‘Ah s–t I’m hit, I don’t wanna die,'” Walker told the Mail. “Then the phone went dead.”

Mays was killed and his younger passenger left in critical condition.

Walker insisted the pair were “not gang members” even though they “hung out with Blood gang members.”

They told her one of the cars that chased them — allegedly firing shots — had “security” written on the side of it.

“They drove into the CHOP zone not to ambush the sleeping protesters but for their own safety,” Walker told the outlet.

“And it ended up costing at least one of them their life.”

:haha:

[iambecomelife]

The Daily Wire, eh...?...


Wikipedia: The Daily Wire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Wire



That source is so full of holes, its not even watertight, much less airtight; the publication; Daily Wire is little more than a sensationalist, Right-Wing rumor/conspiracy mill; the questionable nature of its 'reliable' source. rapper Lord Jamar, is further tainted given the rapper's history as a crack cocaine dealer...





<O>

Are Snopes and Wikipedia unbiased?

Furthermore, much of the quote is the rapper's opinion about the movement. I think he's allowed to feel suspicion towards their motives if he wants to. They haven't outlawed that yet (although maybe that's what some people would want to do). As a disclaimer, I don't agree with many of his opinions (especially re: sexual minorities), so all the usual attack dogs can hold their horses.

The quotes from Lord Jamar are accurate; I found the video of him with about two seconds of searching. The Daily Wire is 100% accurate. Then again, maybe you can provide evidence that the guy in the video isn't him??? Part of the Daily Wire's evil sneakiness, using a body double, maybe??

hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRCwe7J_4YE


Are you really concerned about his use of cocaine, or do you just not like him for not having the right opinion? If he was a cocaine user/dealer who liked George Soros and foamed at the mouth about right wingers, etc would you still be so worried about him dealing drugs? Thank you.

[vienna]

Are Snopes and Wikipedia unbiased?
...




I don't know; do you have any real, verifiable proof that they are biased or that there is a bias in their of actual facts based on verifiable public record in regards to either the nature, content, or failed reportage of Daily Wire or any evidence Daily Wire is, itself, unbiased?...

... or do you just hate fake news only when it doesn't have the right opinion?...

If you do have some real verifiable proof, in public record, that back up your claims of bias, you are welcome to share them...



...

Furthermore, much of the quote is the rapper's opinion about Black Lives Matter. I think he's allowed to feel suspicion towards their motives if he wants to. They haven't outlawed that yet (although maybe that's what some people would want to do).

...




At no point did I make reference to his right to make an opinion or his suspicions; he can say whatever he pleases and think whatever he wishes, much as you can, and, (gasp!!) even I can; but opinion is not always fact and thought is not always reality; there has to be a solid base of evidence to make either opinion or thought fact...

Nice try on trying ti deflect from the actual issue by dredging up a straw man 'free speech' argument; transparent attempts at patriotic puffery to hide a paucity of substantive arguments is always amusing; I seem to recall a saying about trying to use patriotism as a refuge...



...

Are you really concerned about his use of cocaine, or do you just not like him for not having the right opinion?



No, I just tend to doubt the character and validity of persons with such backgrounds; even in court trials, or even in the consideration of potential witness, the character of the individual is a valid and recognized metric; the nature of his opinions have no bearing; his ability to stand up as a reliable and/or credible witness does have a bearing...

Also, to clarify a mischaracterization you made in your posting; I don't know for a fact if 'Lord Jamar' used cocaine, but it is a matter of record and his own self admission he was a crack cocaine dealer; crack dealers, from what I've heard from cops I've talked to and from numerous reports in various media, are quite likely to make personal use of their product, one reason LEOs are not very keen on having to handle them; as I just said, I don't know if he used, but it is known 'Lord Jamar' was, in point of fact, an actual dealer, which make him someone who was making his living, such as it was, off the sufferings and agonies of other persons for his own personal profit, a level of scum that is subterranean...

Now, if you really want to make and base your arguments on the utterances of a self-acknowledged criminal who has proven to have shown no regard for human life if it interferes with his 'business' and who would not make even a passable witness under normal circumstances, well, that speaks volumes about the substance and nature of the argument you are making and the depths taken to attempt to pass it off as fact...


As far as my concerns, let's just say I do have legitimate concerns, and, apparently, you... not so much...





<O>

[iambecomelife]

"Nice try on trying ti deflect from the actual issue by dredging up a straw man 'free speech' argument"

Trying "ti" deflect - meh. Type more carefully.


Provide proof that the daily caller falsified his quote. Thank you. You intended to imply the Daily Caller was wrong or suspect bc they are EEEVIL RIGHT WINGERS!! I was curious and found that out for myself that they had quoted him verbatim. It took a few seconds to prove that your attempt to discredit the Daily Caller was specious. Of course, I admit the guy in the video could be an imposter, due to evil evil Right-Winginess, or some such thing.

Provide a statement in which I claimed that the Daily Caller was unbiased. Thank you. (I personally feel every news source is biased; for that reason I can't wait to see what you come up with....)

For that reason I'm not going to bother arguing whether Wikipedia/Snopes are biased. I reiterate, IMHO all news, whether good/bad/Commie/Left/Right/whatever is biased, and we humans tend to like having our biases confirmed.

You seem to be very angry that someone dared challenge you. You also seem upset because I refuse to acknowledge Vienna is right because Vienna says so and Vienna's word is law. Not sure why this should be the case...?

[iambecomelife]

"transparent attempts at patriotic puffery to hide a paucity of substantive arguments is always amusing"

Don't feign amusement when you're actually angry. You're just harming yourself. I wouldn't want that.

Again, you seem to be very upset, based on your last reply. Sorry about that, so go ahead & keep up with the posts about Right Wingers (what are those, anyway?) if you need catharsis.

Oh, and I was choosing to make your resentment of this guy and his opinion an issue. I can if I want to....part of my observation of how we love sources that confirm our own biases, and hate sources that seem to critique us or challenge us. I definitely don't exempt myself. It's just a turn the conversation took. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Carry on!

[vienna]

"Nice try on trying ti deflect from the actual issue by dredging up a straw man 'free speech' argument"

Trying "ti" deflect - lol!!! :D Feel that blood pressure go up.


Provide proof that the daily caller falsified his quote. ,,,
...




Oh, dear, it seems a nerve has been struck... :haha:


So, you start out by nitpicking "ti" instead of "to"; aside from it being a minuscule typo, I must also note the spell checker didn't highlight it since "ti" is an actual word, so I didn't catch it in proofing; it should also be pointed out I have, in the past made note of my dyslexia, and, due to a worsening medical condition, I am having difficulty with my hands, so, yes, I do make an occasional error, as we all, except of course, you... :D


Oh, wait!... this just in...:




...

Provide proof that the daily caller falsified his quote. Thank you. You intended to imply the Daily Caller was wrong or suspect bc they are EEEVIL RIGHT WINGERS!! I was curious and found that out for myself that they had quoted him verbatim. It took a few seconds to prove that your attempt to discredit the Daily Caller was specious. Of course, I admit the guy in the video could be an imposter, due to evil evil Right-Winginess, or some such thing.
...




Apparently your "Daily Caller" is, by your metric, a serious flaw: the name of the website The Daily Wire, not The Daily Caller, an error you made three (3) times in the above quote; I just missed a letter, but you, apparently are either negligently inattentive, deliberately dense, or reckless in argument...

Then there is the "intended to imply"; how do you know if I was even implying anything? you're grasping at very slippery straws with tiny little hands... :haha:

Show me where I at anytime explicitly said The Daily Wire falsified the quote; I dare you to prove that lie...

Show me where I said the Daily Wire (pls note its Wire... :D) was wrong because they are right wing; the cite I gave pointed out how The Daily Wire has a track record of 'reporting' inaccurate, unsubstantiated, and, sometimes false 'information'; my cite shows The Daily Wire could be suspect and has been proven to be suspect not because they are right-wing or left-wing or chicken-wing, but because it has a proven track record of false and misleading 'reportage'...

I am not the person(s) or organizations calling The Daily Wire to task; there are others out there who have made those assertions and I simply cited one source; the fact is, The Daily Caller has been caught out on several occasions playing fast and loose with the facts and/or the truth; after researching about The Daily Wire, I am inclined to agree with that assessment and note The Daily Wire needs no outside reference to be subject to discredit since they are doing such a fine job on themselves on their own...

It took only a few seconds (interspersed with my laughter) to prove the speciousness of your claims about my stance... :haha:




...

Provide a statement in which I claimed that the Daily Caller was unbiased. Thank you. (I personally feel every news source is biased; for that reason I can't wait to see what you come up with...lol.)

For that reason I'm not going to bother arguing whether Wikipedia/Snopes are biased. IMHO all news, whether good/bad/Commie/Left/Right/whatever is biased, and we humans tend to like having our biases confirmed.

...




Excuse me: did I, at any time, explicitly say or claim you said the The Daily Wire (that makes four (4) times you said Caller; just wanted to be accurate... :D) was unbiased; in fact no one has claimed The Daily Wire was unbiased, so that seems to be a bit of a stumper as to why you are even bring it up... :hmmm:

..and if you acknowledge it may be biased, there is all the more reason it, like any other source, should be called to question...

Likewise, I have never said any news source is unbiased; I just try to recognize and acknowledge the bias, ignoring it to see if there is any fact or substance to the reportage; I don't like the idea of blind faith in anything or in persons I have little to no knowledge or experience of...

Yes, every person tends to like to have their biases confirmed or appear to be confirmed; but, if that confirmation is at the expense of provable fact or knowledge, then the bias is merely opinion...



...

You seem to be very angry that someone dared challenge you. You also seem upset because I refuse to acknowledge Vienna is right because Vienna says so and Vienna's word is law. Not sure why this should be the case...? Explain yourself.

" opinion is not always fact and thought is not always reality" Unless you're Vienna because Vienna says so.


Now, I really got a belly laugh out of that part. People challenge me all the time; several people here in these forums challenge what I post and I respect a very goodly number of them, particularly when they can articulate their views and offer cites to back them up; I may not agree with them all the time, but I don't get angry at being challenged, in fact, I welcome a good discussion and have sometimes learned things I might have not otherwise; I try to keep an open mind about things and I far from believe only I am always right; I've got a whole lot of ex's who have conditioned me to accept the impossibility of my infallibility... :D

My opinions are just that opinions and only time and facts will tell if they are right or wrong and I don't begrudge anyone else their own, sometimes contrary opinions...

Just don't try to feed me Spam and try to tell me its Porterhouse steak...


"transparent attempts at patriotic puffery to hide a paucity of substantive arguments is always amusing"

Don't feign amusement when you're actually angry. You're just harming yourself. I wouldn't want that.

Again, you seem to be very upset, based on your last reply. Sorry about that, so go ahead & keep up with the posts about Right Wingers (what are those, anyway?) if you need catharsis.

Oh, and I was choosing to make your resentment of this guy and his opinion an issue. I can if I want to. It's just a turn the conversation took. Sorry, but that's the truth.


Oh, please stop!! My ribs are hurting from all the laughing!!... :har:

Its funny to have a guy who, in the space of about 15 minutes, felt a compelling need to post twice, consecutively, to express his opinion that someone else was angry and upset; I had actually thought the whole matter was done as we had both expressed our opinions and there seemed to be no middle ground; I actually logged on to SubSim to post to the Music Thread and noticed there was a new post (or, posts,as it tuned out) in this thread and just clicked in out of curiosity...

Don't feign that you have clairvoyant powers and can 'see' or sense' my moods or intentions; I was laughing the whole time I was writing that last post of mine because your argument(s) was/were so laughable, as are you with your 'knowledge' of me; I kind of figured you might get a bit wound up, but you certainly exceeded probable expectations...

I'm not angry just genuinely amused at how ludicrous and predictable your argument in favor of a crack dealer/rapper truly was at its fundament and how it was a laughable attempt at deflection away from my original point that both the 'news source', the Daily Wire and the person they chose to bolster their 'facts' are of highly dubious veracity; the fact that you are unable to address the point(s) I actually made and chose, instead, to set up a free speech straw man and feign indignation that someone would dare to doubt the word of a criminal crack dealer shows how weak and pathetic your attempts are...

If you want to take the word of a criminal drug pusher and/or a news website with a dubious track record, go for it; I don't really care...

However, you really are quite amusing... :haha:


...oh, and don't be concerned about my blood pressure: its just fine and stable. How do I know?...


...Vienna says so... :smug: :D




<O>

[iambecomelife]

"just genuinely amused"

No you're not.

You're angry at opposing opinions, hence the latest novel and emoji blizzard.

[vienna]

"just genuinely amused"

No you're not.

You're angry at opposing opinions, hence the latest novel and emoji blizzard.





:har: :har: :har:





<O>

[iambecomelife]

IOW, per Vienna: "I wasn't saying they're non-credible Right Wingers, I was just saying they're non-credible Right Wingers. And I'm going to keep spamming emoji's in a tantrum." OK.

For everyone else, replace the x's of course in the link I posted previously and you'll find that in this case the summary of the speaker's opinion was correct.

It's a fairly short interview, and can be looked at in one sitting (although I found some of the back & fourth tedious). And again, I reject this guy's claim of same sex attracted ppl conspiring against blacks. The issue is, was the quotation of his beliefs accurate.

EDIT: Oh and Vienna is absolutely right about the name of the publication; my mistake. Daily Caller is a completely different entity.

[Jimbuna]

Cool/calm heads everyone, Sunday is supposed to be a day of rest.

TIA

[vienna]

IOW, per Vienna: "I wasn't saying they're non-credible Right Wingers, I was just saying they're non-credible Right Wingers. And I'm going to keep spamming emoji's in a tantrum." OK.
...





Odd, I can't see any actual quotes of me saying those exact words anywhere in my posts; and the use of "IOW" just means what you said is just your opinion or impression of what you think I said or what you are trying to make it seem I said in order to salvage your floundering point(s), if any; I say what I say, nothing more and nothing less...

IOW, per iambecomelife: "I can't argue actual stated facts or actual stated words verbatim, so I'll just make up something on my own to see if I can get away with it"...

...and I also see your current point is "I'm going to continue my current tantrum spree of equine corpse flagellation..."...




...

For everyone else, replace the x's of course in the link I posted previously and you'll find that in this case the summary of the speaker's opinion was correct.

It's a fairly short interview, and can be looked at in one sitting (although I found some of the back & fourth tedious). And again, I reject this guy's claim of same sex attracted ppl conspiring against blacks. The issue is, was the quotation of his beliefs accurate.

...




Gee, I don't recall ever saying the quotes were not accurate; in fact, I don't recall questioning the quotes at all; wonder we're your getting that from... :hmmm:

I did, in fact, question the reliability, veracity, and character of the rapper given his less than admirable criminal background and I did question the website's reputation as a fully honest and highly reliable news source, which has also been questioned by others no doubt with far more knowledge of the full extent of The Daily Wire's spotty history...

But, did I ever question the actual accuracy of the quote(s)?: I dare you to prove, by my own specific actual words, in context, that I dd so...

The issue never was if the quotation(s) of his beliefs is/are/were accurate, the issue was the reliability of the rapper's statements...

Those tiny little hands losing a bit more of their grip...?... :03:



...

EDIT: Oh and Vienna is absolutely right about the name of the publication; my mistake. Daily Caller is a completely different entity.


Gee, if I'm right about that, what else could I be right about...?...








<O>

[vienna]

Cool/calm heads everyone, Sunday is supposed to be a day of rest.

TIA


Sorry, Jim; I was still typing my previous post when you posted yours...

For me, I'm done with it; I was just having a bot of a laugh and didn't mean to cause you any grief...

Again, my apologies... :salute:




<O>

[iambecomelife]

Another aside....this guy has a point about corporate co-opting of social movements.

I mean, really - who thinks that political bundlers, the bigwigs at Amazon and all the other companies trumpeting "wokeness" these days are genuine? When I go to order something online I'm greeted with a big "socially conscious" banner. Personally, I think most corporate leaders are trying to make a quick buck with "wokeness". Kind of like how oil companies engage in "greenwashing" to make themselves look good. Meh. I guess it's their job - part ppl from their money by any means necessary. But it doesn't make it any less cringey.

[iambecomelife]

Well, more ugliness at the protests - hard to believe it's already been like a month. In my city on the West Coast, they just tried to storm the police station AGAIN. And ultra-Right + ultra-Left groups have been brawling each other. It's like Weimar Germany, with trashier looking participants.

And a group of protesters got hit by a car in Seattle - I believe one lady has died. They tried to claim it was a racist attack but that seems unlikely, and the driver (whom extremists doxxed) was a black man. It seems like he just didn't see them; after all it was a highway at night.

hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtXAP06qzA

(Graphic content, FYI).

[Onkel Neal]

Well, more ugliness at the protests - hard to believe it's already been like a month. In my city on the West Coast, they just tried to storm the police station AGAIN. And ultra-Right + ultra-Left groups have been brawling each other. It's like Weimar Germany, with trashier looking participants.

And a group of protesters got hit by a car in Seattle - I believe one lady has died. They tried to claim it was a racist attack but that seems unlikely, and the driver (whom extremists doxxed) was a black man. It seems like he just didn't see them; after all it was a highway at night.

hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jtXAP06qzA

(Graphic content, FYI).


I love your description of the trashier rioters :D

I do have to point out, since racism is not exclusively restricted to white people, it could be racist. If I run over some protesters I'm gonna claim I didn't see them too.

I still don't see why blocking highways and roads is permitted... They should all be arrested for safety violations. That highway in Seattle has been blocked 19 straight days, those people are crazy to allow that.

[Skybird]

Two days ago a German newspaper commeneted that in the Third Reich there was the Abstammungsnachweis. In a way this has come back now - with every white human now being officially a racist due to his skin colour, and has to feel guilty.

Wrote a German mainstream newspaper.

Lets not forget, whatever there is evil and bad int he world, it is always the West's fault. And capitalism only steals and plunders, while socialism is the better world.

When that plane flew over a british stadium with a banner "white lives matter [cityname]", German main TV news on ZDF channel on the same evening even altered the translation into German ("nur weiße Leben zählen") so that the claim of racism was "proven". The german mistranslation turned back into in English would be "only white lives matter". But that was not what the banner said. And as I wrote back on that day, it is not clear what the pilot was ticking like, whether he was a KKK guy and white supremacist indeed, or was just pissed by the ideologically motivated witch hunting on every channel and in ever street, trying to bullying any disagreeing opinion away - and so pointe dout that not just black lives mattered, but white lives matters as well, means: every life matters.

What has come of that story, is anything known about the pilot and his motives now? I lost track of it.

[Aktungbby]

Two days ago a German newspapere commeneted that in the Third Reich there were the Abstammungsnachweis. In a way this has come back now - with every white human now being officially a racist due to his skin colour.



Wrote a German mainstream newspaper. NOT TO BE OUT DONE BY THOSE BLOODY WOGS IN ZIMBABWE IN THIS AM's NEWSPAPER::O:
https://apnews.com/7eae9a42465074ff4b3eb20399991251 (https://apnews.com/7eae9a42465074ff4b3eb20399991251) While much of the world is engrossed in the race-related outrage over the death of George Floyd in the United States, Zimbabwe’s young people with albinism are fighting prejudices against the color of their skin.

In nearby Malawi and Tanzania, many people with albinism are killed because their body parts are thought to bring good luck. No such killings have been reported in Zimbabwe, which has about 70,000 people with albinism out of a population of about 15 million.

But prejudices remain deep-rooted.

Some people stare, whistle or verbally abuse those with albinism when they walk along the streets. Some believe sleeping with them can cure HIV. Many others treat albinism as a curse....“I only started living my life two years ago. The stigma had gotten to me that most times. I felt I wasn’t as human as the others. I am now making up for those lost years,” Gumbo said. She said she only started making friends after she finished school, where she had been treated as an outcast by fellow students and even teachers.IT SEEMS WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH A PROBLEM OVER SKIN COLOR. BUT IN AMERICA WE DON'T CARVE UP TOO MANY FOR MEDICINAL PURPOSES....YET.:shucks: