level of complexity

[KDN77RUS]

tell me how to disable the boat marker on the map ?

[Fidd]

Use damp-paper and pencil instead.

[KDN77RUS]

Use damp-paper and pencil instead.

have you read the question carefully ?

[Fidd]

Your true position matters very little. All that matters in game is your position relative to the convoy, and other u-boats. Once you're in sight of the convoy, when surfaced your position relative to the convoy can be reasonably accurately determined. Once submerged, this becomes harder but you can still plot it via observations from 'scopes and hydrophone. Once deeper than periscope depth, only a log of headings and times can plot your positions, augmented by hydrophone readings.

As the game already operates thus, it's hard to see why disabling the surfaced position indicator would serve any purpose at all.

Hence my quip about "damp-paper".

[KDN77RUS]

Your true position matters very little. All that matters in game is your position relative to the convoy, and other u-boats. Once you're in sight of the convoy, when surfaced your position relative to the convoy can be reasonably accurately determined. Once submerged, this becomes harder but you can still plot it via observations from 'scopes and hydrophone. Once deeper than periscope depth, only a log of headings and times can plot your positions, augmented by hydrophone readings.

As the game already operates thus, it's hard to see why disabling the surfaced position indicator would serve any purpose at all.

Hence my quip about "damp-paper".

this answer is much better...
tell and odometer also does not matter when calculating move ?

sorry for the translation ... google

[Fidd]

It's true that submerged you can either calculate the vector of your movement to update position from a known point (so many minutes at a known speed of x knots, converted to meters), or, you can reset the odometer at every change of heading and simply plot the reading from it before it is reset to zero.

[Aktungbby]

KDN77RUS!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Pisces]

Since nothing else is plotted on the map automatically the plot of your own position gives you little information to use it with. But yeah, once the Scapa Flow mission becomes a thing, positioning in the vicinity of shores and such becomes important. And then being able to disable the position indicator would add a level of difficulty for advanced players.

[Fidd]

I would presume, that night or day, the Scapa mission would be submerged anyway, so it's moot is it not?

[KDN77RUS]

Since nothing else is plotted on the map automatically the plot of your own position gives you little information to use it with. But yeah, once the Scapa Flow mission becomes a thing, positioning in the vicinity of shores and such becomes important. And then being able to disable the position indicator would add a level of difficulty for advanced players.

I believe that players need to be taught real navigation.
GPS tag on the map is for wimps

[Pisces]

I would presume, that night or day, the Scapa mission would be submerged anyway, so it's moot is it not?The navigator-bot does update the position once submerged. So if they are enabled for whatever reason and a human player is not taking that role it probably will loose that level of difficulty. But let's not get ahead of ourselves just yet. Let them develop first.

[KDN77RUS]

here is a device for navigation in the air.
there should be no other
https://yandex.ru/turbo?text=https%3A%2F%2Fru.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2 F%25D0%25A1%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BA%25D1%2581%25D1%258 2%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D1%2582

[Fidd]

There's also a circular-slide-rule used in aviation navigation, commonly called a "whizz" or "prayer" wheel, which is a very powerful tool for speed/time/distance/drift and vector calculations (and a great deal more specific to flying). When I was instructing students on air-navigation I'd start by setting them a problem, and they'd compute it with electronic calculators, and I with the "prayer-wheel" - and they never ever arrived at the solution before I did. Having proved the use of the (batteryless) wheel, I'd then teach them how to use it. Sextant use is no longer taught in aviation, but a form of sextant was used in astro-navigation (position derived from stars) until the 1950's when the ubiquity of radio-aids made astro-navigation redundant.

The accurate use of sextants would be extremely difficult on a U-boat due to the pitching and rolling of the boat, so I would expect it was a method of last-resort for fixing position. DFing known LW radio transmitters would be a much easier method, with sextant use only being of use in calm seas.

[KDN77RUS]

why can't I send private messages to you ?

[Superesse]

Your true position matters very little. All that matters in game is your position relative to the convoy, and other u-boats. Once you're in sight of the convoy, when surfaced your position relative to the convoy can be reasonably accurately determined. Once submerged, this becomes harder but you can still plot it via observations from 'scopes and hydrophone. Once deeper than periscope depth, only a log of headings and times can plot your positions, augmented by hydrophone readings.

As the game already operates thus, it's hard to see why disabling the surfaced position indicator would serve any purpose at all.

Hence my quip about "damp-paper".

You're right that at least it is realistic when you're submerged. But why would it be a good thing to have unrealistic features (GPS) when surfaced? The thing is that if you have been submerged for a while and then resurface, the game will give you your correct position. In reality you would still have to trust your previous navigation. You cannot just surface to get the answer. This is especially true if you maneuver in panic during an escort attack and loose your navigation. A lot of your previous convoy mapping would be lost because you no longer know your position!

[KDN77RUS]

You're right that at least it is realistic when you're submerged. But why would it be a good thing to have unrealistic features (GPS) when surfaced? The thing is that if you have been submerged for a while and then resurface, the game will give you your correct position. In reality you would still have to trust your previous navigation. You cannot just surface to get the answer. This is especially true if you maneuver in panic during an escort attack and loose your navigation. A lot of your previous convoy mapping would be lost because you no longer know your position!

and how did sailors in real life when you have lost the point after a dive ?
Выделите текст, чтобы посмотреть примеры

[Fidd]

You're right that at least it is realistic when you're submerged. But why would it be a good thing to have unrealistic features (GPS) when surfaced? The thing is that if you have been submerged for a while and then resurface, the game will give you your correct position. In reality you would still have to trust your previous navigation. You cannot just surface to get the answer. This is especially true if you maneuver in panic during an escort attack and loose your navigation. A lot of your previous convoy mapping would be lost because you no longer know your position!

I think this comes down to a simple issue of dev-time v benefit to the game. "GPS" surfaced position could be done away with, and the necessity of taking noon-day shots with a sextant replacing it, however, "only the tenth-part of a tithe of a half-farthing" of players would know how to use it, and the need for such accuracy is completely redundant given that all we need to do is to remain in visual or hydrophone contact of a convoy, not (as yet) intercept it from position reports hundreds of miles away.

IMHO for now, there are simply dozens of far more worthy tasks for the devs to crack on with...?

[Superesse]

and how did sailors in real life when you have lost the point after a dive ?
They didn't. That's the point. If you fail with your navigation you don't have a backup GPS. They could use a sextant to get a rough idea, but there were no meter-precision navigation in the 40s.

I think this comes down to a simple issue of dev-time v benefit to the game. "GPS" surfaced position could be done away with, and the necessity of taking noon-day shots with a sextant replacing it, however, "only the tenth-part of a tithe of a half-farthing" of players would know how to use it, and the need for such accuracy is completely redundant given that all we need to do is to remain in visual or hydrophone contact of a convoy, not (as yet) intercept it from position reports hundreds of miles away.

IMHO for now, there are simply dozens of far more worthy tasks for the devs to crack on with...?
Why would we need a sextant? The sextant is probably precise enough to tell you which sea zone you're in. You already know that. Thus, the dev effort here is to add a checkbox "Disable GPS". That's it. I guess that can be done in 10 minutes.

[Fidd]

(snip)

Why would we need a sextant? The sextant is probably precise enough to tell you which sea zone you're in. You already know that. Thus, the dev effort here is to add a checkbox "Disable GPS". That's it. I guess that can be done in 10 minutes.

I wasn't suggesting we do have sextants, but the opposite, ie it's a waste of time.

[KDN77RUS]

I wasn't suggesting we do have sextants, but the opposite, ie it's a waste of time.
it depends on the tasks before the player. you can create conditions in which only the sextant will help to find the right direction and coordinates after a long active maneuvering

[Fidd]

I don't think a sextant would help in that regard as the intrinsic error of the instrument is likely much more than any navigational error caused by "manoeuvring" would be, unless such manoeuvring went on for days..

[KDN77RUS]

I don't think a sextant would help in that regard as the intrinsic error of the instrument is likely much more than any navigational error caused by "manoeuvring" would be, unless such manoeuvring went on for days..

the accuracy of the sextant is limited to the determination of latitude and longitude ?

[derstosstrupp]

A competent navigator under good conditions using a sextant can get a fix with 5 to 10 nautical mile accuracy

[KDN77RUS]

A competent navigator under good conditions using a sextant can get a fix with 5 to 10 nautical mile accuracy

in the ocean it's precision, like a thread in a needle to get

[derstosstrupp]

in the ocean it's precision, like a thread in a needle to get

It’s certainly not precise like GPS of course, but remember that five nautical miles is just under 10 km, well within visual range at sea to find an island or whatever. Celestial navigation is fascinating stuff, and it’s surprising how accurate it is.

We have our people simulating it in our campaign for Wolfpack, outside of the game, but when they go on patrol I give them their celestial data and they plot fixes using real world data.

[Fidd]

The sextant can only calculate latitude' but needs to be used in conjunction with a very accurate chronometer to determine longitude. A sextant without one is as much use a bath-plug on a submarine.


the accuracy of the sextant is limited to the determination of latitude and longitude ?

[derstosstrupp]

Yes indeed! You are then forced to do as the old old timers did and “sail the latitudes”. Sail straight north or south to the latitude of your destination, then east/west till you get there, taking a noon sight for latitude or polaris sight each day.

[KDN77RUS]

It’s certainly not precise like GPS of course, but remember that five nautical miles is just under 10 km, well within visual range at sea to find an island or whatever. Celestial navigation is fascinating stuff, and it’s surprising how accurate it is.

We have our people simulating it in our campaign for Wolfpack, outside of the game, but when they go on patrol I give them their celestial data and they plot fixes using real world data.

will the Wolfpack sextant work ?

[derstosstrupp]

Interestingly enough there is code currently in the code for a sextant of some sort. Let’s keep our fingers crossed!

[Pisces]

The sextant can only calculate latitude' but needs to be used in conjunction with a very accurate chronometer to determine longitude. A sextant without one is as much use a bath-plug on a submarine.Actually, it measures an angle between objects, and most often used for an angle of a celestial object to the horizion. You don't need to be looking south to the sun to get latitude at noon. With sightings of sun/moon/planets/stars in various directions and accurate time you do a bunch of number-crunching based on assumed positions an then calculate offset corrections (azimuth and distance) from those to construct two or more "T"-shapes on the map, where you would be somewhere on the top-line. The number-crunching being with tables of positions and logarithmic tables for spherical trigonometry. (don't ask further, I am not proficient in it. Check this for an example procedures made with SH4 in mind: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2991)

This would go way over the heads of 99% of the players. Which already have trouble with the TDC or submerged dead reckoning. So would be left unused by the majority. Asking the devs to implement celestial nav in the game is asking them to waste time where they could be doing other stuff. Asking the devs to disable the update of the uboat icon position is the easiest for them to do. Maybe only leave the starting position as a reference. Then it is the total responsibility of the crew to keep track of their movement in a log as they go away of the reference point. Because, if you enter the game in total overcast then you will be completely lost without any way to fix your position in that session. If you do not have the convoy or other objectives in hydrophone-, or later radio direction finder-range, then you might as well give up.

If the devs find time to implement this fully down the line then I'm all for it.

[KDN77RUS]

the question is, what do developers want from their project ?
teach players or make an arcade "simulator"?

[derstosstrupp]

What is long overdue I feel is a Realism panel where people can turn on and off what they want and make it as hard or easy as they want.

[Pisces]

the question is, what do developers want from their project ?
teach players or make an arcade "simulator"?I think WP is already way past an "arcade simulator". But I think it is smart to not make this an uber hardcore simulator. If people are put off by the steepness of the learning curve then sales will plummet. And it won't see the end of days. They need to strike a balance between realism and playability. And leave the rest open for modders to tweak it in.

[Fidd]

The trick, imho, is to achieve both: The basics of operating, aiming and firing the sub/torps made an achievable learning curve, but adding complexities to improve all the preceding to retain players. If the game is too easy to master, and has no room for players to grow into, you won't be short of new players, but one might struggle to retain old ones....

[Superesse]

Asking the devs to disable the update of the uboat icon position is the easiest for them to do. Maybe only leave the starting position as a reference. Then it is the total responsibility of the crew to keep track of their movement in a log as they go away of the reference point. Because, if you enter the game in total overcast then you will be completely lost without any way to fix your position in that session.

I agree. The starting point must be given. Which is still realistic.

[Onkel Neal]

I think WP is already way past an "arcade simulator". But I think it is smart to not make this an uber hardcore simulator. If people are put off by the steepness of the learning curve then sales will plummet. And it won't see the end of days. They need to strike a balance between realism and playability. And leave the rest open for modders to tweak it in.

Well said.

[KDN77RUS]

and here the developers show up ? who are they ?

[Pisces]

Onkel Neal is the publisher/liason for the developers/piggy-bank that got this project going from HMS Marulken to Wolfpack as it is now.

Oscar and Einar respond sometimes in here. Usualyy as their company account Usurpator. But they show themselves a bit more in Discord when they feel the need.

[KDN77RUS]

Onkel Neal is the publisher/liason for the developers/piggy-bank that got this project going from HMS Marulken to Wolfpack as it is now.

Oscar and Einar respond sometimes in here. Usualyy as their company account Usurpator. But they show themselves a bit more in Discord when they feel the need.

thanks