Tesla: ‘There’s almost no reason to have a gas car’

[Onkel Neal]

I know two people now who own Teslas, and the more the tech improves, the more they will catch on. Right now the recharge rate is the only real drawback, and that only affects you on long trips.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/06/jay-leno-on-tesla-electric-cars-are-the-future.html

Leno implied Tuesday that he sees electric cars taking over the automobile industry in the future as technology advances.

“Steam ran everything from 1800 to about 1911. Then internal combustion took over from 1911 to right about now. And I predict that a child born today probably has as much chance of driving in a gas car as people today have been driving a car with a stick shift,” he told CNBC.

[em2nought]

The once reliable diesels have been so messed up by gov't intervention now that once they become older and super expensive to maintain it makes electric sound mighty attractive in a tractor trailer. :03:

[em2nought]

...but then your hybrid escort vehicle gets a !HEV warning and you think maybe things could become worse. :hmmm:

[mapuc]

So the charging seems to have improve

what about temperature and capacity ?

Temp:

A few years back I saw on a Danish science program how they tested an electric car in summertime and wintertime and the performans between summer and winter was huge.

Capacity- Even here the temp had an impact on the capacity.

(I could of course have remembered it wrong)

Markus

[vienna]

The biggest advantage of electric I've heard and seen in various news and other reports has to do more with performance than anything else; there seems to be an almost universal expression of impression with the almost instant engagement of the electric drive train versus the 'build-up' acceleration of gas engines. Regarding issues with temperature, climate, etc., the same sort of issues are seen in gas and diesel vehicles and may be more easily overcome in electrics than other vehicle types; recharging has also gotten a bit easier with charging stations multiplying in number and accessibility; shopping malls, recreational areas and other similar sorts of public areas have been installing charging stations in their parking lots and they are remarkably convenient: you just pull up into a charger parking space as you would any other parking space, plug in, and go about your business:


https://mblogthumb-phinf.pstatic.net/20160418_16/pooa0827_1460989133777sRLzh_JPEG/Image00037.jpg?type=w800


A local mega-shopping center has installed a slew of units similar to the above and they are being well used...


What will be interesting to se is the development of other fuel sources; here in CA, there has been a statewide effort to make hydrogen fuel refill stations available; and there are interesting steps forward being taken in fuel cell technologies...








<O>

[Jimbuna]

Am I correct in presuming there is a cost to use a charging bay?

[Aktungbby]

some charge some don't

[em2nought]

Am I correct in presuming there is a cost to use a charging bay?


I saw some free charging stations in the cell phone lot at TPA.

[Platapus]

I wished I could afford two vehicles


I would love to have an electric for my daily work commute and then have my ICE for the weekends and vacations


I wonder how feasible it would be to have one vehicle that does both?

[vienna]

some charge some don't


Unintended pun?...



(or, knowing you, intended?...)...










<O>

[Onkel Neal]

Ford enters the arena, not bad although count me as one of the questioners of using the Mustang name for a car that's clearly not a Mustang. Marketing I guess.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/18/20970193/ford-electric-mustang-mach-e-first-look-photos-video-la-auto-show-2019

And not impressed with the dash/tablet arrangement; looks slapped together, when it should be integrated into the cabin.

But it is another step away from ICE cars, and can't hurt.

[Skybird]

Two, three weeks ago I saw a documetnation on the state of things, and they said in it that while int he wets everybody goes crazy abiut battery-run cars while ignoring the tremendous and extrenly costly infrastructure problem, in many Asian countries incolduing Japan and China, the yhave a very different attitude. In Japan th welcoming of electric cars is coo, only, and in China it is below expctaction as well. The real differen ic that in japan they still are not on the batter ytrain, but push development in two way, regarding hydrogen as well, which is more popular in japan than anywhere else. It avoid allt he priblem s with needing to establish the loading infrastructure, and creharging times. In China the quality was too bad so far, and the government set up a prigrma to have that quality level raised. Still, the media reprts we have in the West that the Chiense go electric like crazy, seem to be propaganda so far.



Sounds to me as if the Asians have a far more sober and realistic approach to electric cars. Especially the Japanese calmness I ike.



Personally I would prefer hydrogen-run cars. I know cretaing hydrogene is mor energy-intensive, but so far I still wait for somebody showing REALISTIC calculations how to establish the needed infrastructure without making it an extremely costly enterprise for the private households owning property and beign forced to pay for the construction. The new laws they mull in Germany will force property owners to pay for it, in case of the six-flats-house where I have my appartment, it would cost 30 to 40 tousand coins to provide the six garages with charging terminals. And subisdies by the state? Dont make me laugh the state get the koeny for these subsidies from taxes, so they would be OUR money that was stolen from us before.



The way it gets pushed her ein the west, I still rate it as hysterical actionism by politicians wanting to please Fridays for Future. To have a shaky greta coaltion in office that at the last election was vouted out and should nto even exist, doe snto make me more optmistic for the forseeable future of a realstric electricity-driven car program. There is no other country in the world - NONE - that tries as desperately as Germany to cripple the one vital key industry it has and on which all national wealth and wellfare depends. The e-cars offered by Germna car makers, are an alarm signal to me. They are extremely expensive and belong to the medium and upper luxury sehment, with the decisive small-cars-sgment beign dominated by Asian car amkers since long, they do the small cars much better by now than the Germans. And still the Germans have nothign better to do than to spank and torture the one industry of theirs that keeps the German ship floating.



Surreal. Unreal. Anti-real.


Tesla wants to build a gigafactory near Berlin, so says Musk. Of course with enormous tax subsidies by the germans. Tesla also builds batteries, a field where the German car makers lag behind, and depend on subcontractors supplying them with batteries. VW just has annoucned to cisnider to mayb estart building it sown batteries. They would be the first german car maker. That is strange when saying at the same time one wants to play at the top.



Teslas are too expensive. The European and German e-cars usually are too expensive as well. The decisive segment are affordable, s all cars, and I think it will be the Asians winnign that race: Japan, India, China, Korea. For small cars, Asian brands would be my first choice since years.

[Hitman]

I think the future will be a mix of electric and hydrogen. Electric for small city vehicles, not jus6t cars but also bikes etc (Many times shared or rented) that can easily recharge on a normal plug, and then hydrogen for family vehciles for trips etc. Anybody who lives less than 40 kms away from work in a single house or condo doesn't really have much problems to recharge daily an electric vehicle for commuting. Statistics show that is the biggest share of vehicles moving around. Then the hydrogen solves all the rest of problems for longer distances.

I believe we will see the electrics start in cities/commuting and then the hydrogen ones replace the diesel/gas ones slowly.


The European and German e-cars usually are too expensive as well. The decisive segment are affordable, s all cars, and I think it will be the Asians winnign that race: Japan, India, China, Korea. For small cars, Asian brands would be my first choice since years.

But, isn't that logical when you consider competition in the lower segment is dominated by sell price and thus low wages and running costs as in most of Asia? I mean, the same applies today to diesel/gas vehicles, where Germany sells quality and more efficient engines in the premium sector. Germany can't win the low cost race, it needs to sell premium vehicles, so I think that part of the idea is OK. The part that becomes problematic, however, is when you realize an electric engine is terribly simple and most can do an efficient one, there is not a lot to gain there, so what can Germany add there? Basically nothing but the badge, unless they drop the millions in better batteries which could net them more benefits.

[Skybird]

Yes, its about fincial affordability, and car quality. German car makers still are associated with superior quality. But in the small car segment, the Asians are better - not just cheaper, but also better. And since the medium price and size segment becomes more and more unaffordable for the ordinary employee, car sales in the smaller size segmet goes up. Luxury cars are just for the very wealthy, and companies leasing them for their business fleet. German brands still oput hjigh empohasis on the medium and high price segment, but the fight for e-mobility I expect to be decided in the small car segment.

Which may also mean the need for loing rnage mediuum and big sized cars will fall. Families may not find it affordable to have a battery car for city traffic, and a hydrogen car for holiday travelling.

Personally, I am a happy user of an e-bicycle, and have no car at all. I have not driven a car since 30 years, I never needed to own a car. :) I I now would need to buy a car for whatever a reaosn, I honestlky do not know what to do. An all-e-car I would refuse to buy, so probably a small hybrid car, if there are hybrids in the small car segment, I do not know. Else a small gasoline car, probably a Korean or Japanese. The asking prices for small size German cars imo are not justified.

[Hitman]

I don't think many people will have two cars, electric and hydrogen, it is likely that hydrogen ones will just be rented for holidays or weekends. And probably also the small electric ones, in fact the automobile is headed mostly for car sharing apps and rental. Big fleets of rental/shared electric vehicles in the city, where you could not care less about what badge they have, that is the future.

One important part of this is is IMO how the automobile has changed in popular culture. From being a sign of individuality and freedom, to becoming mostly just a tool that gives you an utility. There is also of course the radical left environmentalist inquisition around, happy to point at such mid class freedom dreams as toxic and damaging for the wellness of society. But overall I see millenials and younger people have, save for some exceptions, a quite different perception of the automobile, not different than what they see in a fridge or washing machine. No wonder motorsports are declining big time, popular culture has already moved away from all the automobile once meant.

[Skybird]

I don't think many people will have two cars, electric and hydrogen, it is likely that hydrogen ones will just be rented for holidays or weekends. And probably also the small electric ones, in fact the automobile is headed mostly for car sharing apps and rental. Big fleets of rental/shared electric vehicles in the city, where you could not care less about what badge they have, that is the future.

One important part of this is is IMO how the automobile has changed in popular culture. From being a sign of individuality and freedom, to becoming mostly just a tool that gives you an utility. There is also of course the radical left environmentalist inquisition around, happy to point at such mid class freedom dreams as toxic and damaging for the wellness of society. But overall I see millenials and younger people have, save for some exceptions, a quite different perception of the automobile, not different than what they see in a fridge or washing machine. No wonder motorsports are declining big time, popular culture has already moved away from all the automobile once meant.
I am not certain on that rental-car-only-model, I think that still is very much for the very young adult group. But I would welcome a no-selling-only-leasing policy enforced on batteries in general, cars and ebikes alike. So far, manufacturers must have no interest to build batteries of lasting durability, it is in their interest that batteries do not last, but break early and people must buy new ones. That is at least how it is with bicycles, I do not know about e-cars. A leasing model encourages the industry to build batteries with longer longevity and resistance to environmental effects that could degrade them. Attention must be paid to the pricing for leasing fees, however, they shall not be allowed to go through the cailing to nullify the wanted effect. Industry must feel an own interest to produce better quality.

I do not expect that hydrogen bicycles will make it. :D

[Mr Quatro]

There is a funny video going around on FB (search for it) showing a blonde trying to put gas in a Tesla with the man behind her filming it till he had to get out and explain it to her. :D

[Hitman]

Sounds like a fake :O: though with blondes you never know ... :hmmm:

I married a brunette, just in case :cool:

[Mr Quatro]

Sounds like a fake :O: though with blondes you never know ... :hmmm:

I married a brunette, just in case :cool:

Welcome back Hitman ... I thought you died and were buried out in the desert or something :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flrDyrp7kWA&feature=emb_logo

[August]

You know that blonde jokes are discriminatory and sexist right?

[Buddahaid]

Could be a man in a wig.....

[August]

Could be a man in a wig.....




Could be, but "Dumb Blonde" is a pejorative that is nearly always applied to women.

[Mr Quatro]

Could be, but "Dumb Blonde" is a pejorative that is nearly always applied to women.

That try to put gas in a Tesla :yep:

[Platapus]

If I had the space and could morally justify having more than one car, I would like to have a small electric car for my daily commute.



I like my Forester for the dogs and the times I have to transport the grand kids as well as pick up stuff for the house. But I don't need that for my daily commute.

[Hitman]

Welcome back Hitman ... I thought you died and were buried out in the desert or something

I can think right now of some people would certainly want that :haha:

But I have never been gone, I check here on an almost daily base, it's just that I don't usually post much as I am docked and away from naval sims. But as my signature goes ... one day I will return to sea :shucks:

You know that blonde jokes are discriminatory and sexist right?

I don't do jokes with such intent, how the rest of the world interpretates them is their problem, not mine. But I guess political correctness is a differen thread altogether.

[Onkel Neal]

Sorry, Ford, but here is a much nicer looking e-car. (https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/19/20973020/audi-e-tron-sportback-sedan-la-auto-show-2019)

Weird side mirrors, though, and 2X expensive.

[Buddahaid]

But it's a German car and people love to pay twice as much for them.

[Skybird]

Sorry, Ford, but here is a very much nicer looking and faster e-car. (https://www.porsche.com/germany/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan-4s/)

Weird air inlets, though, and 3-4X expensive.
Corrected that for you. :D

[Mr Quatro]

Corrected that for you. :D

You've obviously never been in a wardroom Sky :hmmm:

This is equal to the Ltjg saying to the captain I corrected the course from 350 to 270 for you Captain :D


Just kidding ... :D

[Skybird]

As a German I am obliged to always know things better. ;)


:woot:

[Onkel Neal]

And you usually do :)

[Skybird]

The Taycan is a Porsche, and if you put your money on a Porsche it is not difficult to be right! :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

Tesla's truck unveiled and my stock went down $25 in a day :o


This looks like just the thing you need if you are a Somali warlord or a dystonia people-hunter from the future...
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/dmb4vpafuo1ieo256h3t.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

Raptor Offroad Community

Tesla truck

https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/75513589_2465868020368650_19857497825214464_n.jpg? _nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=oqDrO79paxgAQkjuHO_vtvB27G6qj7iNhdb-MnPAGg06qIHNYQn4Ttvug&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=0352415981640be83b454f892f19f32e&oe=5E493458

[Catfish]

Should have called it a Hummer and it would sell like crazy :O:
Body repairs will be cheap i guess :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Thats one of the ugliest rolling vehicles I have ever seen. Terrible. Simply terrible. If I would win it in a lottery, I would immediately sell it, undriven, even uninspected. It not only leaves me uninterested - it instead actively keeps me away. Awful.

[em2nought]

I like Bollinger's approach. EV, but everything else very low tech. Looks like an ugly version of the old Landrover.


https://bollingermotors.com/


Until I saw the price that is. $125,000 LMAO :har:

[August]

500 mile mile range, 0-60 in 2.5 seconds, body strong enough to take a sledgehammer blow without denting, who cares about looks?, and they really aren't that bad in a simple utilitarian sort of way but I can see why some don't like them. Not girly looking enough i'm guessing.

[Mr Quatro]

Mid 40k standard trim
Mid 70k loaded :o

[Platapus]

That vehicle looks like it was driven on the Ugly Highway and hit every pothole.

[August]

That vehicle looks like it was driven on the Ugly Highway and hit every pothole.


Maybe but a few light bars, lift kit, equipment racks and other accessories (call me a Boomer but that dash needs some thick pile shag rug and a plastic Jesus) and you know it'll have a Mad Max appeal that will make it quite popular.:)

[em2nought]

The nice thing about them would be that if you incur some body damage you could just cut out the section and rivet the front of a s.s. dishwasher into the area.:D I guess you get your cleaning products for it in the appliance isle? :hmmm:

[mapuc]

Both Skybird and August is right.

The Car looks awful, so here i agree with Skybird

I also agree with August

It's not how a car looks like, but what it can perform and how trustworthy(can't find the correct word) it is.

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

"Reliable"

Sorry, that mess looks like a low budget prop in B sci-fi movie that went straight to video.:O:

Can you imagine the ignominy of being the first pedestrian killed by the cybertruck?

[Buddahaid]

It's that way for a low radar profile....

[Mr Quatro]

Don't forget that stainless steel car that old Detroit car executive made in Ireland became a collectors item and so shall this one.

Isn't this just a prototype? Not even on the road yet.

What if this one has the same batteries that explode. :o

Tesla talks big, but they take too long to deliver. :yep:

[Buddahaid]

F1 thinks differently.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.how-formula-1-will-lead-the-charge-to-use-biofuels.lxWqy8GilwwMBsjKyPiFf.html

“What we can do is we can show the world that there are alternatives to electric power and there are alternatives to storing electricity in heavy and, I have to say, somewhat dirty batteries,” Symonds concludes."

[August]

"Reliable"

Sorry, that mess looks like a low budget prop in B sci-fi movie that went straight to video.:O:

Can you imagine the ignominy of being the first pedestrian killed by the cybertruck?


He probably won't hear it coming.

[Onkel Neal]

Don't forget that stainless steel car that old Detroit car executive made in Ireland became a collectors item and so shall this one.

Isn't this just a prototype? Not even on the road yet.

What if this one has the same batteries that explode. :o

Tesla talks big, but they take too long to deliver. :yep:

That's a good point, this car could be worth 5x its purchase price in 20 years! Nice.

[August]

Don't forget that stainless steel car that old Detroit car executive made in Ireland became a collectors item and so shall this one.


The DeLorean?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Delorean_DMC-12_side.jpg

[Catfish]

^ I liked that one, if not the boring Volvo innards.

Regading the Tesla pickup there are already 150,000 preorders :o

[Onkel Neal]

I find that so hard to believe. Well, if they do sell, we will easily know it when we see them on the road.

[Skybird]

Ignoring the ugly looks and taking it for granted it offers sufficient functionality and reliability, I have one question: how long lives the battery? I do not mean range per charge, i mean: how long until the batteries must be replaced, how many years? How long until they have lost a pratcial usage range when fully charged (because evry battery looses maximum capacity it can hold from first charging-uncharging cycle on)? Because that is what decides the material reselling value of e-cars, and so far it is a total mess. Just three years ago replacing the batteries of a Smart costed almost as much as buying a new car. And new battery technology enters the car production cycles three to four times a year, more or less. The tech standard in them ages very fast. And that means: loss of reselling value. Also keep on mind Musk'S business motto: he has said that he does not want to offer software updates and firmware updates on and on, but that he demands Tesla customers to buy new cars with new kits rather sooner than later.

So much for ecology and sustainability.

Here in germany a Tesla recently drove into a tree. It immediately went up in flames, and exploded. The drivers escaped quite closely, with burnings and fractures. The fire brigade had to store the car submersed in an aqua tank for days because Tesla could not tell them how to extinguish the ongoing chemical fires in the battery compartment. I repeat: the car was kept fully submersed in water FOR DAYS.

Hydrogen cells, okay, in the long run count me aboard. Japan goes for that, China seems to head into it, so does Korea apparently, at least they run both ways currently. But this battery madness Europe voted for exclusively? Lithium, dirty mining for it, the ecological footprint of building batteries, the unsolved infrastructure issue? Not with me. Some time ago I read about a calculation - in ecological means - regarding Diesel cars and Lithium battery cars. They said that there is a net gain in advantages not before some higher six-digit km distance driven in the e-car. I forgot the exact number, 180 thousand is on my mind, but I do not swear on it. All the hype and hysteria - for THIS...??? Calculates very badly. Very, very badly.

But helps to de-industrialise the West, especially Germany, and bring down the national economy and burgeoise society model. And that is what many want.

[mapuc]

Batteries
I have throughout the years read and seen documentary about batteries in the future.

Such as Nano based batteries nano batteries and if my memory doesn't fail me...virus based battery.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

I can't believe the way people are today bashing a Mustang E owner :o
with death threats no less. :yep:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/tesla-owner-with-mustang-mach-e-reports-threats-on-social-media-from-tesla-fans/ar-BB1fifT8?li=BBnbfcL

Sergio Rodriguez never imagined saying nice things about his new Ford Mustang Mach-E would elicit "death threats" from Tesla owners on social media.

What started this round of social media sparring was a tweet on Saturday by Jace Craft-Miller, who picked up his Carbonized Gray Mustang Mach-E First Edition on March 29.

The 29-year-old sales project manager from Cleveland, Ohio tweeted, "All these Tesla fanbois reach out saying how much they hate the Mach-E ... blah blah."

And Rodriguez, who was featured in the Detroit Free Press, part of the USA TODAY Network, in early March, replied,


"I've had them message me death threats over my joy with the Mach-E."

A veteran no less :up:

Rodriguez, 41, a U.S. Army veteran who served two tours in Iraq and specialized in explosive ordnance disposal, is now a military contractor living in Saint Marys, Georgia.

[AVGWarhawk]

I can't believe the way people are today bashing a Mustang E owner :o
with death threats no less. :yep:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/tesla-owner-with-mustang-mach-e-reports-threats-on-social-media-from-tesla-fans/ar-BB1fifT8?li=BBnbfcL



"I've had them message me death threats over my joy with the Mach-E."

A veteran no less :up:

Crazy. The E Machine is a very good electric car. What's not to like about instant torque? I'm strongly considering an electric for my daily commute. 15 mile round trip per day. At that rate I would only need to charge the vehicle once a week.. KIA has a nice electric car. Volkswagen is now Voltswagen.

[Catfish]

I guess you are not allowed to have fun with a car :D

[AVGWarhawk]

I guess you are not allowed to have fun with a car :D

What is your idea if fun in a car? Check out a Tesla beating Jay Leno in a AC Cobra in a flat start. Electric are instantaneous torque where gas engines are not. The body feels torque. Not speed.

[3catcircus]

Ignoring the ugly looks and taking it for granted it offers sufficient functionality and reliability, I have one question: how long lives the battery? I do not mean range per charge, i mean: how long until the batteries must be replaced, how many years? How long until they have lost a pratcial usage range when fully charged (because evry battery looses maximum capacity it can hold from first charging-uncharging cycle on)? Because that is what decides the material reselling value of e-cars, and so far it is a total mess. Just three years ago replacing the batteries of a Smart costed almost as much as buying a new car. And new battery technology enters the car production cycles three to four times a year, more or less. The tech standard in them ages very fast. And that means: loss of reselling value. Also keep on mind Musk'S business motto: he has said that he does not want to offer software updates and firmware updates on and on, but that he demands Tesla customers to buy new cars with new kits rather sooner than later.

So much for ecology and sustainability.

Here in germany a Tesla recently drove into a tree. It immediately went up in flames, and exploded. The drivers escaped quite closely, with burnings and fractures. The fire brigade had to store the car submersed in an aqua tank for days because Tesla could not tell them how to extinguish the ongoing chemical fires in the battery compartment. I repeat: the car was kept fully submersed in water FOR DAYS.

Hydrogen cells, okay, in the long run count me aboard. Japan goes for that, China seems to head into it, so does Korea apparently, at least they run both ways currently. But this battery madness Europe voted for exclusively? Lithium, dirty mining for it, the ecological footprint of building batteries, the unsolved infrastructure issue? Not with me. Some time ago I read about a calculation - in ecological means - regarding Diesel cars and Lithium battery cars. They said that there is a net gain in advantages not before some higher six-digit km distance driven in the e-car. I forgot the exact number, 180 thousand is on my mind, but I do not swear on it. All the hype and hysteria - for THIS...??? Calculates very badly. Very, very badly.

But helps to de-industrialise the West, especially Germany, and bring down the national economy and burgeoise society model. And that is what many want.

This. No one wants to admit that all of today's "clean" electric cars use batteries whose production is extremely polluting and whose battery life is limited. One could possibly use batteries that allowed greater manual control of charging to extend battery life, but most consumers aren't going to measure cell voltages, take specific gravity measurements, perform an equalizing charge, etc. - and that is even assuming that such batteries had sufficient energy density to allow their use in passenger vehicles.

We might be better off pursuing LPG or CNG in passenger vehicles.

[AVGWarhawk]

This. No one wants to admit that all of today's "clean" electric cars use batteries whose production is extremely polluting and whose battery life is limited. One could possibly use batteries that allowed greater manual control of charging to extend battery life, but most consumers aren't going to measure cell voltages, take specific gravity measurements, perform an equalizing charge, etc. - and that is even assuming that such batteries had sufficient energy density to allow their use in passenger vehicles.

We might be better off pursuing LPG or CNG in passenger vehicles.

I think EV are part of an overall strategy for lowering emissions. Certainly not the answer all to the issue. Natural gas is also part of the strategy IMO.

[Rockstar]

I think EV are part of an overall strategy for lowering emissions. Certainly not the answer all to the issue. Natural gas is also part of the strategy IMO.




In addition to that nobody uses acid batteries in EV's so there's no levels to check measurement to take or equalization phases.

[AVGWarhawk]

In addition to that nobody uses acid batteries in EV's so there's no levels to check measurement to take or equalization phases.

Battery technology has come a long way. Imagine if GM did not kill their EV program in the 80s so to make Humvee for civilian sale? Look at today's cellphones. I can charge mine in about 20 minutes.. With growing infrastructure for EV, the popularity and desire to utilize a EV will grow. This is coming from as guy who owns a 1954 and 1960 Buick. The engineering of today is light-years from what we powered our vehicles.

[Mr Quatro]

Ford says that they are just two years away from having a solid state battery which is the best next big thing.

I found this that Toyota is ahead of everyone else ...

Just wait for the first electric car charging at home to start the first big California wild fire.

Portland, Oregon already offers free electric car charging if you shop downtown and Biden is said to be pro-electric cars and trucks with a budget for thousands of charging stations all over the country (at our expense)

Here's the downside ... if and when electric cars take over gasoline will go up to $5.00 a gal for the law of supply and demand. :hmmm:

https://www.google.com/search?q=new+ford+solid+state+batteries+due+in+202 3&oq=new+ford+solid+state+batteries+due+in+2023&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.14965j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Who is leading solid state battery?

Toyota

Toyota, with a strong solid-state development history and 200+ engineers working on solid-state battery technology, is considered a leader here. Strong participation from EV/HEV makers is extremely important for solid-state battery commercialization.

[mapuc]

If there isn't some major breakthrough regarding these car batteries in these Electrics cars we may see an end of this era in the future.

Driving 70-90 km on one charge-range depending on temp= Lower temp=shorter distance.

Time of charging-Can't remember how long it takes to fully charge a tesla when almost dry.

Think Climate change some may say-well I guess an owner of a tesla car who has to make several stops to charge the cars battery and have to wait until it's almost full, may one day become tired of it.

Gasoline is absolutely not the future.

What kind of stuff we may use in our cars 100 years from now I don't know.

Markus

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't see gas completely gone in your and my lifetime. It will take time and acceptence. Gas powered vehicles are not part of this mud ball we call earth for long. In the bigger picture, how will gas tax be replaced? Another issue on the horizon.

[mapuc]

I don't see gas completely gone in your and my lifetime. It will take time and acceptence. Gas powered vehicles are not part of this mud ball we call earth for long. In the bigger picture, how will gas tax be replaced? Another issue on the horizon.

I wrote In the future.

And what we use in 100 years from now.

Maybe we have found a way to make ordinary gasoline green.No CO2 and other nasty stuff in it with same effect as it has today.

Oil is not what we call renewable energy

Markus

[Skybird]

I am not against e-cars. Just against a concept of e-cars needing batteries that must be recharged via a complex, expensive and time-consuming infrastriutre to be newly created.

If you travel from North to South Germany in an e-car, you now need many times as much time for that trip, and are being accompanied by constant fear that the weather maybe asks a higher toll from the batteries, or the next charger is defect, and you sit hours and hours (accumulated) beside chargers and watch nothing while the battery gets loaded once again, or... or... or... And this stupid nonsense they sell us as "progress"...? :o In my book its a massive step backwards. Battery cars like this only have a place in the short range infrastructure within a city.

Hydrogen that gets tanked in like gas, that is the way to go. Can in parts even use alrready existing infrastructure.

But then engenious formdiable palnned economy scientists and visionaries would need to admit that they were wrong, so the yprefer to use the power of the state to push an erratic strategy ever more forward.

In Asia they are more intelligent - China, Japan, Korea develope BOTH, parallel, and use both.

I like ebikes, however. But nobody should be mistaken: its expensive a way to ride bicycle, the runnig costs add up. Do not buy such a thing to ease your ecological conscience or to save money over your car, do it because it is fun to drive ebike. And do it only for that reason - and no other. The running costs pile up, really: Chains, gears, wear out much faster and must be replaced at frequencies you usually only see at pro race drivers' bikes. I replace all this every 750-1100 km. Thats much. Plus my third battery just bought, and my motor just got replaced for the first time, after 12000km. After five years (no matter how much you used them) you must accept battery max capacity loss of 25-30%, just due to aging. Thats why I always ask: how long last those car batteries, because these age just with time, too. Charging and decharging cycles only speed up aging, too.

[AVGWarhawk]

I am not against e-cars. Just against a concept of e-cars needing batteries that must be recharged via a complex, expensive and time-consuming infrastriutre to be newly created.

o

Much was said about roadways that criss cross the United States. Yet, it was accomplished with tax dollars paid by those that utilize these roads.

[vienna]

So what some of you are implying is gas vehicles are necessary to preserve gas taxes, so we can't shift to e-vehicles or other forms of propulsion other than gas? Interesting that the segment of the population most associated with railing against taxation is using preservation of gas taxation as an argument against alternative fuels... :hmmm:




<O>

[AVGWarhawk]

So what some of you are implying is gas vehicles are necessary to preserve gas taxes, so we can't shift to e-vehicles or other forms of propulsion other than gas? Interesting that the segment of the population most associated with railing against taxation is using preservation of gas taxation as an argument against alternative fuels... :hmmm:




<O>

What segment is using preservation of gas powered vehicles for taxation as an argument? I know if no one. Realize a gallon of gas is about a $1. The remainder of the charge for that gallon is taxes. Where do you suggest the lost tax revenue on the sale of gas comes from? It's a legitimate question that deserves a solid answer. Tax per mile as one on Capitol Hill suggested? Tax per volt charged?

[vienna]

What segment is using preservation of gas powered vehicles for taxation as an argument? I know if no one. Realize a gallon of gas is about a $1. The remainder of the charge for that gallon is taxes. Where do you suggest the lost tax revenue on the sale of gas comes from? It's a legitimate question that deserves a solid answer. Tax per mile as one on Capitol Hill suggested? Tax per volt charged?


All I was doing is observing how, when the subject of going to alternative, non-petroleum-based fuels/propulsion is raised, many of those who oppose such alternates seem to be quick to raise the issue of lost gas tax revenues as an argument against the adoption of alternatives; if you are concerned about the loss of gas taxes, I would offer the possibility, among some others at play, of taxation of charging stations with the cost of the tax passed along as it is now done with gas taxes; I have noted, in recent months, a rapidly growing number of gas stations, in my area, installing and advertising electric vehicle charging station on their lots; it would seem they do, indeed, see the future and are wise enough to adapt rather than die...

As for who has raised preservation of gas powered vehicles foe taxation, particularly since a substantial bulk of the funds for roadways comes from gasoline taxes, you, yourself, in your post previous to my prior post raised it as a sort of argument:


Much was said about roadways that criss cross the United States. Yet, it was accomplished with tax dollars paid by those that utilize these roads.


The implication of your statement is the continued maintenance and possible expansion of the roadway may well be jeopardized should there be a decline in the number of gas powered vehicles; I did not intend for the statement to be seen as directed towards you, personally, but, rather, to what I have heard and seen in recent years in the the media when the issue comes up; there seems to always be some person, politician, or entity who will wring their hands over the loss of the 'precious' gas taxes; I am quite sure there will be some way to account for the decrease in taxes, say, perhaps, an idea like a tax on mileage to be paid for by the drivers at the time of their annual vehicle registration, an idea which has been floated in several states...


Still, it does seem amusing that a good many of those who openly decry taxation in general seem to find the need to bring up the loss of gas taxes as a crutch for their arguments against alternative fuels...





<O>

[mapuc]

I do not have a car today and my driving licens is out of date(not interested in getting a new)

I made a search on how far you can go on a fully charged Tesla

Getting 400 miles out of one tank of gas or diesel is not a big deal; most hybrids can easily get into the 500-mile range and diesel SUVs with 20- to 30-gallon tanks can hit 600-700 miles between fill-ups. But for electric vehicles, the 400-mile range frontier is a big deal.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/can-a-tesla-model-s-go-400-miles-on-a-single-charge/

It would mean the death of gasoline and diesel the day an electric car can go 600-700 miles on one charge independent of the weather

Markus

[3catcircus]

One thing nobody talks about is that fossil fuels are actually renewable resources. Organic matter dies and gets captured in the earth all the time - it's an ongoing process. The quest is to figure out where the stuff from a million years ago is as we empty the stuff from 2 million years ago...

[AVGWarhawk]

All I was doing is observing how, when the subject of going to alternative, non-petroleum-based fuels/propulsion is raised, many of those who oppose such alternates seem to be quick to raise the issue of lost gas tax revenues as an argument against the adoption of alternatives; if you are concerned about the loss of gas taxes, I would offer the possibility, among some others at play, of taxation of charging stations with the cost of the tax passed along as it is now done with gas taxes; I have noted, in recent months, a rapidly growing number of gas stations, in my area, installing and advertising electric vehicle charging station on their lots; it would seem they do, indeed, see the future and are wise enough to adapt rather than die...

As for who has raised preservation of gas powered vehicles foe taxation, particularly since a substantial bulk of the funds for roadways comes from gasoline taxes, you, yourself, in your post previous to my prior post raised it as a sort of argument:





The implication of your statement is the continued maintenance and possible expansion of the roadway may well be jeopardized should there be a decline in the number of gas powered vehicles; I did not intend for the statement to be seen as directed towards you, personally, but, rather, to what I have heard and seen in recent years in the the media when the issue comes up; there seems to always be some person, politician, or entity who will wring their hands over the loss of the 'precious' gas taxes; I am quite sure there will be some way to account for the decrease in taxes, say, perhaps, an idea like a tax on mileage to be paid for by the drivers at the time of their annual vehicle registration, an idea which has been floated in several states...


Still, it does seem amusing that a good many of those who openly decry taxation in general seem to find the need to bring up the loss of gas taxes as a crutch for their arguments against alternative fuels...





<O>

There is no implication. Tax dollars will be lost with reduces gas sales. What will replace it? There is no argument for or against gas sales and taxes. It is a question only. What will fill the gap?

[August]

It shouldn't be a tax by the volt seeing as how, unlike petrol, one can produce ones own electricity.

[AVGWarhawk]

It shouldn't be a tax by the volt seeing as how, unlike petrol, one can produce ones own electricity.

How? Run a generator? We then are back to gas engines. Add it to a home owners electric bill? Use a separate meter?

[August]

How? Run a generator? We then are back to gas engines. Add it to a home owners electric bill? Use a separate meter?


Exactly. There's just no way to accurately record all the potential sources of power. I would think a tax would have to be mileage based. They'd record the vehicles mileage during the annual sticker inspection and you'd get a bill for the difference from what they recorded the year before. Be tough to avoid that.

[AVGWarhawk]

Exactly. There's just no way to accurately record all the potential sources of power. I would think a tax would have to be mileage based. They'd record the vehicles mileage during the annual sticker inspection and you'd get a bill for the difference from what they recorded the year before. Be tough to avoid that.

Buttgrieg was peddling mileage. It was shelved in a matter of days. Big oil. There is gonna be problems. And you bet there will be counterfeit annual stickers. Hell, you can get inspection paperwork on the street corner for the right price. Any jalopy can get tags.

[GoldenRivet]

When Tesla creates a truck that will haul all of my work gear (sometimes in offroad back country conditions) and tow a 37' travel trailer 1200 miles across the United States in 24 hours stopping only for 5 minute charges and pee breaks - I'm all in.

but right now, money talks and BS walks and i have a ram that will do that and every idle day i spend trying to get where im ordered to go is costing me about $1500

[AVGWarhawk]

When Tesla creates a truck that will haul all of my work gear (sometimes in offroad back country conditions) and tow a 37' travel trailer 1200 miles across the United States in 24 hours stopping only for 5 minute charges and pee breaks - I'm all in.

but right now, money talks and BS walks and i have a ram that will do that and every idle day i spend trying to get where im ordered to go is costing me about $1500

It's coming. Electric tractors are here. If Ford turns a gas burning icon into E Machine, certainly there will be a E 150 pick truck. The F 150 icon will be no more.

[Mr Quatro]

It's coming. Electric tractors are here. If Ford turns a gas burning icon into E Machine, certainly there will be a E 150 pick truck. The F 150 icon will be no more.

Don't be the first one to buy one ... wait for the recall :D

[vienna]

Those super-heavy-duty zero emission trucks are already here and are being field tested and evaluated at the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles (which are directly adjacent to each other); the impetus for the shift to cleaner technology is due to the serious health threat posed to workers and nearby residents by pollution belching diesel trucks; there is even a pilot program that modifies existing diesel tractors to run on electric power provided by overhead wires, somewhat akin to a trolley car system, while in the port areas...


First Heavy Duty Fuel Cell Electric Trucks Set for Delivery to Pilot Program Customers at Ports of L.A. and Long Beach --

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-heavy-duty-fuel-cell-electric-trucks-set-for-delivery-to-pilot-program-customers-at-ports-of-la-and-long-beach-301190193.html


Clean Truck Procession Opens New Port of Long Beach Bridge --

https://www.truckinginfo.com/10127261/clean-truck-procession-opens-new-port-of-long-beach-bridge


It must be a bit galling to Big Oil have those innovations in vehicle propulsion being developed and 'refined' in the shadows of Big Oil's own nearby refineries...

The above also brings up the other alternatives to the 'charge and go' electric systems: fuel cell and hydrogen gas alternatives are also being developed and could be major players in the near future; in California, there have been added hydrogen 'filling stations' created by funding from the State's Clean Air initiatives and the number of vehicles being sold is steadily increasing, although it is still in the 'baby steps' stage; still, countries like Norway and Denmark have been making significant strides in hydrogen and fuels cell technologies; they even have 'filling stations' that produce the hydrogen right on the station's site, negating the need to truck in the fuel the sell, unlike conventional gas stations...





<O>

[u crank]

It must be a bit galling to Big Oil have those innovations in vehicle propulsion being developed and 'refined' in the shadows of Big Oil's own nearby refineries...

Seems unlikely. 'Big Oil' as you know are corporations whose sole purpose for existing is to make a profit. How they do that would be, I would think irrelevant.

[vienna]

Ahh, but a technology that directly affects the size of their profits would be, to them, relevant, indeed...


I recall how, when solar energy, in the form of solar cells for electric generation, was first floated back in the late 80s, the Big Oil companies went into a frenzy of CYA actions to hedge their bets; ARCO (Atlantic Richfield Oil Co., now part of British Petroleum [BP]) even went so far as to set up several dummy shell corporations offshore to invest in or gain controlling interest in copper mining in South America since copper was a major component in the manufacture of solar cells, and ARCO was not alone in such actions/activities; it may be time for Big Oil to seek likewise 'off-product' investments...







<O>

[u crank]

Ahh, but a technology that directly affects the size of their profits would be, to them, relevant, indeed...

That's not what I meant. You can bank on it that if alternative energy is a profitable endeavour, big oil will get involved and attempt to make a profit at it. And why wouldn't they? Pride? Not likely.

[AVGWarhawk]

That's not what I meant. You can bank on it that if alternative energy is a profitable endeavour, big oil will get involved and attempt to make a profit at it. And why wouldn't they? Pride? Not likely.

I would beg to differ. Big oil will want to continue big oil and dabble or stifle alternative energy keeping it on the back burner but still on the burner.

[AVGWarhawk]

Don't be the first one to buy one ... wait for the recall :D

All experience a recall. As of late KIA/Hyundai in large numbers(engine fires). However, never buy the first model year of a newly designed car. These are the test beds finding flaws at your expense! Et al. new model and year 2006 VW Passat! Junk and they knew it.

[AVGWarhawk]

Anyway, the electric car is not paying gas tax that helps maintain the very road they are using.

[vienna]

Actually, the current gas tax setup isn't really all that fair as it is, if you think about it; if there are two gasoline powered cars, one a gas guzzler, the other a gas saver, and both drivers were to make the same trip for the same distance, the gas guzzler actually pays more in gas taxes (needs more gallons to go the same distance) than the gas saver; for the sake of argument, let's say, for the same trip, the gas guzzler uses 50 gallons of gas, and the gas saver uses 30 gallons of gas; the guzzler, for the same trip, is paying more in taxes for the same trip, every time; this is a common argument used by anti-gas-taxers for as long as I remember, and it is a bit of a valid point...

The main difference with electric vehicles is that, unlike gasoline/diesel vehicles, a user can 'refuel' at home, avoiding the service stations entirely, making the impositions/enforcement of any 'per unit' taxation very difficult; it will probably come down to some sort of mileage tax (imposed, say, at vehicle registration renewal time) or some sort of toll road system, which can be found in several countries, currently; for those who bemoan the 'inequities' of electric vehicles not paying gas taxes, how about simply abolishing gasoline/diesel taxes altogether and just go to the mileage/toll road models?...

One other thing to consider: since the clearly stated intent of our US national policy is to encourage the moving away from dependency on petroleum imports from other nations by seeking to reduce consumption, along with the development of alternative motive methods, it would seem to be a step in that direction to assess a tax premium on the sales and operation of gas/diesel vehicles that needlessly expend fuel merely for the 'enjoyment' or 'pleasure' of the user(s); if you really want to own and drive, say, a Hummer, and use it as a personal vehicle, without any valid practical business use, than maybe you should have to shell out a bit more in taxes/fees for the act of thwarting stated national policy; this is not a new or 'radical' concept; luxury taxes of all kinds exist and are imposed on all manner of expensive, frivolous items and a gas guzzler 'luxury tax' is not that far afield...

Electric and other alternative propulsion vehicles are not going anywhere and are growing in popularity and sales; petroleum powered vehicles, however are progressively diminishing in popularity and, given the auto/truck/other vehicle manufacturers are rapidly 'pulling the plug' on IC vehicles in favor of alternatives, along with continued government support of alternatives as a means of reducing, if not totally eliminating foreign fuel dependency, the dominance of IC vehicles maybe relatively short-lived going forward; I know there are those who fear the impact of reduced revenues of Big Oil as it may impact their investments, 401Ks, etc., but maybe its time for them to reconsider in which basket(s) they are putting their 'eggs', and look to diversify into auto stocks, electric battery development, and other alternative propulsion interests...

No one wants to be like the guy who heavily invested in horse buggy whip as the first Model Ts rolled off the assembly lines...




<O>

[mapuc]

Can't remember which German car it was. It was on the news here yesterday

I think it was VW.

This car could go xxx km on one charge.

Remember thinking if they can improve the batteries so it can go 100 km longer..it may be a tuff opponent to the gasolin car.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

This one might have a gas tax and a battery disposable tax and a luxury tax :yep:

0 to 62 mph in less that 2 seconds :o

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1d1Lpt.img?h=749&w=1438&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f


Koenigsegg Gemera

Those passengers better hold tight to their beverages, since the Gemera lives up to the Koenigsegg reputation. Power comes from a 2.0-liter 3-cylinder twin-turbo Freevalve engine (nicknamed The Friendly Giant) that produces 600 horsepower, teamed with three electric motors — one for each rear wheel and one on the crankshaft. Total output is 1700 horsepower, which will move the Gemera to 62 mph in less than 2 seconds with a top speed expected to approach 250 mph. Koenigsegg says that the Gemera can reach 186 mph in electric-mode only, and it has a range of about 31 electric-only miles. Only 300 of these unique vehicles are expected to be produced.

[Catfish]

" [...] and it has a range of about 31 electric-only miles"
I'm imply depressed.

[mapuc]

As I understand it, it is a huge different between an electric car and a hybrid.

In a hybrid the electric engine, can when fully charged, go around 75-90 km. The idea was that outside cities you used the gasoline in the car and the electric motor in the cities.

While the Electric car is only electric car can drive hundreds of miles when fully charged

Markus

[Catfish]

Why. not. use. hydrogen.
Maybe coupled to electric engines, or to load batteries.
Same engines as now can be used. No probem with external reloading.
No exhausts behind the horizon in form of coal plants.
But we said this a hundred times already.

[AVGWarhawk]

Actually, the current gas tax setup isn't really all that fair as it is, if you think about it; if there are two gasoline powered cars, one a gas guzzler, the other a gas saver, and both drivers were to make the same trip for the same distance, the gas guzzler actually pays more in gas taxes (needs more gallons to go the same distance) than the gas saver; for the sake of argument, let's say, for the same trip, the gas guzzler uses 50 gallons of gas, and the gas saver uses 30 gallons of gas; the guzzler, for the same trip, is paying more in taxes for the same trip, every time; this is a common argument used by anti-gas-taxers for as long as I remember, and it is a bit of a valid point...

The main difference with electric vehicles is that, unlike gasoline/diesel vehicles, a user can 'refuel' at home, avoiding the service stations entirely, making the impositions/enforcement of any 'per unit' taxation very difficult; it will probably come down to some sort of mileage tax (imposed, say, at vehicle registration renewal time) or some sort of toll road system, which can be found in several countries, currently; for those who bemoan the 'inequities' of electric vehicles not paying gas taxes, how about simply abolishing gasoline/diesel taxes altogether and just go to the mileage/toll road models?...

One other thing to consider: since the clearly stated intent of our US national policy is to encourage the moving away from dependency on petroleum imports from other nations by seeking to reduce consumption, along with the development of alternative motive methods, it would seem to be a step in that direction to assess a tax premium on the sales and operation of gas/diesel vehicles that needlessly expend fuel merely for the 'enjoyment' or 'pleasure' of the user(s); if you really want to own and drive, say, a Hummer, and use it as a personal vehicle, without any valid practical business use, than maybe you should have to shell out a bit more in taxes/fees for the act of thwarting stated national policy; this is not a new or 'radical' concept; luxury taxes of all kinds exist and are imposed on all manner of expensive, frivolous items and a gas guzzler 'luxury tax' is not that far afield...

Electric and other alternative propulsion vehicles are not going anywhere and are growing in popularity and sales; petroleum powered vehicles, however are progressively diminishing in popularity and, given the auto/truck/other vehicle manufacturers are rapidly 'pulling the plug' on IC vehicles in favor of alternatives, along with continued government support of alternatives as a means of reducing, if not totally eliminating foreign fuel dependency, the dominance of IC vehicles maybe relatively short-lived going forward; I know there are those who fear the impact of reduced revenues of Big Oil as it may impact their investments, 401Ks, etc., but maybe its time for them to reconsider in which basket(s) they are putting their 'eggs', and look to diversify into auto stocks, electric battery development, and other alternative propulsion interests...

No one wants to be like the guy who heavily invested in horse buggy whip as the first Model Ts rolled off the assembly lines...




<O>

But the choice of the gas guzzler or saver is up to the owner. It's a choice to be a hyper miler or the person who guns it at every light. Either way, the gas burners are paying some amount of tax. The EV owner is not and also getting or did get a tax credit at time of purchase.

[mapuc]

Forgetting the most important.

What does it take for you - to drop your fossil car and change it with an electric car ?

Markus

[AVGWarhawk]

As I understand it, it is a huge different between an electric car and a hybrid.

In a hybrid the electric engine, can when fully charged, go around 75-90 km. The idea was that outside cities you used the gasoline in the car and the electric motor in the cities.

While the Electric car is only electric car can drive hundreds of miles when fully charged

Markus

My first VW was on fire in my driveway 30 minutes after signing for it. No thank you on the VW product.

[AVGWarhawk]

As I understand it, it is a huge different between an electric car and a hybrid.

In a hybrid the electric engine, can when fully charged, go around 75-90 km. The idea was that outside cities you used the gasoline in the car and the electric motor in the cities.

While the Electric car is only electric car can drive hundreds of miles when fully charged

Markus

My first VW was on fire in my driveway 30 minutes after signing for it. No thank you on the VW product.

[August]

Forgetting the most important.

What does it take for you - to drop your fossil car and change it with an electric car ?

Markus

A new top of the line model free every year.:03:

No seriously.

Cheaper to purchase, better performance, longer range, faster to refuel, cheaper to maintain and lower operating costs. For a start.

[AVGWarhawk]

Forgetting the most important.

What does it take for you - to drop your fossil car and change it with an electric car ?

Markus

Not much. 14 miles a day for work. EV will work for me. Price needs to come down to serf level.

[3catcircus]

So, apparently, Tesla's make really good bonfires...

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/18/no-one-was-driving-in-tesla-crash-that-killed-two-men-in-spring-texas-report.html

Who knew that a burning metal battery bank would require a swimming pool's worth of water to extinguish...

[Catfish]

Not only that, after a Tesla just began to burn by itself while being parked at a roadside they could not quench the fire, the battery would reignite and they really had to dump it in a swimming pool for five days to make sure :doh:

They will of course get a grip on those issues, but if you look at the overall energy balance, an electric car that has to be charged externally makes no sense. Energy-wise.

[Skybird]

Battery degeneration over the years is one of the issues I would be at war with. Some weeks ago I red an article about some of the older ecars, some years old now, now have maximum ranges that render the practiclaly uselss - becasue replacing the batteries would cost almost a smuch as the whole car had costed fresh from factory. Batteries grow old, no matter whether you use them or not. You cpuld store them under iedal conditions, and they still would loose in maximum capacity they can hold.

Cold temperatures is an issue. You can easily halve the range you used to have during summer. Or more.

Hot temperatures also are an issue degenerating batteries. Thats why ecars in the US, in those states that are hot and dry, suffer more than those in many European countries with their more modest climate. Want to resell your used ecar? By prepared for a bad surprise. Only stupid buy an old battery. And battery repoalcement , material and working hours, can easily cost you 20,000 coins, and then steeply upwards. AndMusk said he does want people top buy complete new cars every couple of years anyway. So much for sustainability and ecological ressource management.


Oh, did I mentioin the enormous ecological footprint to actually just produce an ecar and especially he battery? Dont look too close, it will ruin your sweet illusions in no time.


Charging infrastructure - a bad joke, in all regards. Avialabiltiy, read.-yxstatus, payment systems.

You live in constant fear that you end up on the road, died down over your battery being empty.

Travel times to reach distant destinations multiplay by several factors. And you have to waste, even if yous tay in your city, hours of your weekls time for sitting still and watch as your battery gets loaded at a commercial charging point.

If this is their idea of a progressive future, they can shove it. I would not want such a car even if I would need a car. IMO, ecars serve just one purpose: annihiating money. Your money. They will deceive this fact by making the working, functional alternative even more expansive without need.

This is what you get when you leave the shaping of the future to a hysterical chorus of stupid wretches who, apart from precocious nonsense and hysteria, learn nothing at school, and opportunistic politicians who are not shameless enough to not serve to these spoiled brats to get their votes.

Ecars - Okay. With cars that can refuel, like gasoline, hydrogene or something like that. Electric motors must not be bad, in princicple can be better and demand less maintenance than fossil fuel-driven engines, and be more powerful at the same time. But rechargable batteries? Scorn and ridicule!:haha: Only on a company compound, on a golf course, inside very small cities. There is a reason I assume why the eco-friendly busses in my town do not drive by battery, but hydrogene or plant-made fuel. But I oppose the idea of wasting precious agricultural farming soil for producing - fuel, instead of healthier plants for eating. Its obscene, and in the light of 8+ bn people on this little planet: unexcusable.

[AVGWarhawk]

So, apparently, Tesla's make really good bonfires...

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/18/no-one-was-driving-in-tesla-crash-that-killed-two-men-in-spring-texas-report.html

Who knew that a burning metal battery bank would require a swimming pool's worth of water to extinguish...

Sheesh. Sorry for the victims. Not good PR for electric cars or Tesla for that matter.

[AVGWarhawk]

Battery degeneration over the years is one of the issues I would be at war with. Some weeks ago I red an article about some of the older ecars, some years old now, now have maximum ranges that render the practiclaly uselss - becasue replacing the batteries would cost almost a smuch as the whole car had costed fresh from factory. Batteries grow old, no matter whether you use them or not. You cpuld store them under iedal conditions, and they still would loose in maximum capacity they can hold.

Cold temperatures is an issue. You can easily halve the range you used to have during summer. Or more.

Hot temperatures also are an issue degenerating batteries. Thats why ecars in the US, in those states that are hot and dry, suffer more than those in many European countries with their more modest climate. Want to resell your used ecar? By prepared for a bad surprise. Only stupid buy an old battery. And battery repoalcement , material and working hours, can easily cost you 20,000 coins, and then steeply upwards. AndMusk said he does want people top buy complete new cars every couple of years anyway. So much for sustainability and ecological ressource management.


Oh, did I mentioin the enormous ecological footprint to actually just produce an ecar and especially he battery? Dont look too close, it will ruin your sweet illusions in no time.


Charging infrastructure - a bad joke, in all regards. Avialabiltiy, read.-yxstatus, payment systems.

You live in constant fear that you end up on the road, died down over your battery being empty.

Travel times to reach distant destinations multiplay by several factors. And you have to waste, even if yous tay in your city, hours of your weekls time for sitting still and watch as your battery gets loaded at a commercial charging point.

If this is their idea of a progressive future, they can shove it. I would not want such a car even if I would need a car. IMO, ecars serve just one purpose: annihiating money. Your money. They will deceive this fact by making the working, functional alternative even more expansive without need.

This is what you get when you leave the shaping of the future to a hysterical chorus of stupid wretches who, apart from precocious nonsense and hysteria, learn nothing at school, and opportunistic politicians who are not shameless enough to not serve to these spoiled brats to get their votes.

Ecars - Okay. With cars that can refuel, like gasoline, hydrogene or something like that. Electric motors must not be bad, in princicple can be better and demand less maintenance than fossil fuel-driven engines, and be more powerful at the same time. But rechargable batteries? Scorn and ridicule!:haha: Only on a company compound, on a golf course, inside very small cities. There is a reason I assume why the eco-friendly busses in my town do not drive by battery, but hydrogene or plant-made fuel. But I oppose the idea of wasting precious agricultural farming soil for producing - fuel, instead of healthier plants for eating. Its obscene, and in the light of 8+ bn people on this little planet: unexcusable.

All of the above is an issue certainly. Ecars have a place in the large scheme of transportation but are ultimately not the complete answer to the question.

[ET2SN]

Why. not. use. hydrogen.


Buy one of those children's balloons the next time you go shopping. Make sure its filled with hydrogen. Take it home.

After a week, try to figure out why it deflated. :yep:

Hydrogen is the lightest element. That makes it very hard to store without diffusing out of its container. Unless you have a cryo-storage unit in your closet.

:up:

[Buddahaid]

They fill those with helium.

[mapuc]

Do you remember our discussion on the new F35 fighter jet and former fighter jets and their childhoods problems.

When it came to F-14, F15 they solved these problems like they will with F35.

The same goes for the Batteries in the coming electric cars.

Maybe batteries with a cap. 1000-10.000 higher than todays.
Less than 10 min to fully charge(from zero to 100 %)
Max charge every time even after 100 times.
Not temp depend(it can be around 50 miles depending on temp)
Weight 1/20 of todays batteries.

A.s.o.

Markus

[mapuc]

Buy one of those children's balloons the next time you go shopping. Make sure its filled with hydrogen. Take it home.

After a week, try to figure out why it deflated. :yep:

Hydrogen is the lightest element. That makes it very hard to store without diffusing out of its container. Unless you have a cryo-storage unit in your closet.

:up:

The Danish technological institute has developed an engine who runs on Hydrogen.
This was about 5-10 years ago..don't know how far they are now.

https://www.dti.dk/specialists/groundbreaking-research-in-fuel-cells/26010

Markus

[ET2SN]

They fill those with helium.

Really? Hydrogen is cheaper to produce, I wonder why they don't use hydrogen?


:yep:

[Buddahaid]

Really? Hydrogen is cheaper to produce, I wonder why they don't use hydrogen?


:yep:

Doesn't mix well with birthday candles...

[Catfish]

^ same can be said for 98+ octane fuel.
Indeed the same Angst was expressed when inner combustion engines were used for the first time.
You can use V2a/V4a steel tanks to put liquid compressed hydrogen in it, or you can use fuel cells which ony produce a litte of hydrogen gas, just as much as is needed in the moment.
Hydrogen can indeed penetrate steel, so you will experience a bit of pressure loss in your tank over months, but the quantities are minimal. If you do not use your fuel-driven car for say four years the fuel will have developed into strange stinking liquid, its lighter inflammable gases evaporated.
Pure hydrogenium not thoroughly mixed with oxygen is not inflammable. Fuel cells are still heavy, but so are batteries.
Advantages are existing technology can be used including engines and gearboxes, same injection systems just coupled with valves just like with propane or LPG fuelled engines and cars.
The only exhaust fumes will be water vapour.

Yes hydrogen has to be produced also, via power plants or solar energy, but the effort is ridiculously low compared to produce batteries that hold for five years if you are lucky.

Add the power line loss over distances due to resistance and the amount of copper or even silver you would need to provide enough electricity to every household to quick charge your batteries, it plain does not make sense.

[Skybird]

Try to extinguish a burnign Tesla lithium battery. Happend once ion Germany I know of, maybe more oftenb, but I knbow of this event, months ago. The firefighters had to put the whole car into a huge tank with water for days until Tesla send a specialist telling them how to extinguish it. I do not know what in the end became of it.

[Platapus]

Really? Hydrogen is cheaper to produce, I wonder why they don't use hydrogen?


:yep:


It leaks too much out of balloons. :D

[August]

Really? Hydrogen is cheaper to produce, I wonder why they don't use hydrogen?


:yep:


They could make them sausage shaped and call them Hindenbaloons. :hmmm: :)

[Buddahaid]

They could make them sausage shaped and call them Hindenbaloons. :hmmm: :)

Oh the sausages...

[Catfish]

^ lol oh the huge manatee :O:
Sure, let's not underestimate the dangers of hydrogen, but fuel and its vapours are not exactly harmless either.

OT: during WW1 Germany built almost a hundred Zeppelins +Schuette-Lanz +other airships for the war effort, mostly for naval surveillance, but also as bombers.

Some were indeed shot down, but only very few exploded, due to pure hydrogen is not inflammable. Lots of grenades and ammo hardware went right through the hydrogen-filled inner gas bags without igniting them. The cells certainly began to leak, but were quickly sealed by the airship's sail maker teams. Drop a bit of ballast and they were good to go on in minutes.

It was only after some special incendiary ammunition like the Pomeroy & Brock type was invented, that the first airship was shot down in flames.
Even then they had to attack several times, first for penetrating the gas bags, then wait for the air mixing and becoming flammable, then a second attack which ignited the oxygen-hydrogen mixture. Same for the observation balloons of the time.

They could have used helium, but this is rare on earth (if abundant in the universe), and hydrogen was much cheaper and available, and you needed less since it is much lighter than helium.

[THE_MASK]

Tesla in Australia starting from $74900 2021 model
Suzuki swift price starting from $18990 2021 model Fuel consumption 4.6l/100 klms average city highway .
I wont be buying a Tesla anytime soon .

[AVGWarhawk]

Tesla in Australia starting from $74900 2021 model
Suzuki swift price starting from $18990 2021 model Fuel consumption 4.6l/100 klms average city highway .
I wont be buying a Tesla anytime soon .

Yes, pricing needs to come down to earth. Some are there. For me, when a vehicle is cresting $40K...it is time to rethink a lower purchase. But that is just me. I was looking at the KIA/Hyundai offerings. The costs are in the $40K plus range. Others will come along at reasonable prices. I think Tesla has a EV at $37K. However, Tesla has never been a good looking EV IMO.

[AVGWarhawk]

Interesting article on why ICE will never go away completely.

This reason to be the most compelling to me:

The second reason is mining. Replacing all the ICE vehicles in the U.S. with EVs would require stunning amounts of commodities like cobalt, lithium, and copper. The scale of the demand can be understood by looking at a letter that Professor Richard Herrington of the Natural History Museum in London sent to the British government last year. Herrington and his colleagues looked at the U.K.’s climate goals and the requirement that all its vehicles be converted to electricity by 2050. Doing so, they found, would require the entire world’s production of neodymium, three quarters of the world’s lithium production, and at least half of the world’s copper production during 2018. And remember, that’s just for the U.K.!

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2020/11/29/five_reasons_why_internal_combustion_engines_are_h ere_to_stay_651051.html

[Catfish]

Interesting article on why ICE will never go away completely.
This reason to be the most compelling to me:

" ... looked at the U.K.’s climate goals and the requirement that all its vehicles be converted to electricity by 2050. Doing so, they found, would require the entire world’s production of neodymium, three quarters of the world’s lithium production, and at least half of the world’s copper production during 2018. And remember, that’s just for the U.K"

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2020/11/29/five_reasons_why_internal_combustion_engines_are_h ere_to_stay_651051.html
Oh dear, seems they will have to invade the world once more for their energy goals :yeah:

[AVGWarhawk]

Oh dear, seems they will have to invade the world once more for their energy goals :yeah:

It appears every country will need to invade the world for their energy goals. History repeating itself? I stand firm that EV and only part of answer to climate change. ICE will be here for a very long time.

[Skybird]

ICE will be here for a very long time.
No wonder they are so often late on arrival then.
https://www.fr.de/bilder/2020/07/15/13833625/576043678-ice-3-bahn_160720-2c5BrqrKq2a7.jpg

[August]

I'm telling you guys, Global warming is the only thing staving off the next ice age which I understand is seriously overdue. Winning the fight against climate change may only spell our doom. :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm telling you guys, Global warming is the only thing staving off the next ice age which I understand is seriously overdue. Winning the fight against climate change may only spell our doom. :up:

Well, if we tax it that will solve the issue.

[Catfish]

I'm telling you guys, Global warming is the only thing staving off the next ice age which I understand is seriously overdue. Winning the fight against climate change may only spell our doom. :up:
"Not if we destroy earth first."

[AVGWarhawk]

"Not if we destroy earth first."

Can this be taxed? :hmmm:

[mapuc]

The solution is easy

Just let the bureaucrats make some law in where Global warming is illegal.

See problem solved

Markus

[Catfish]

"Not if we destroy earth first."
Can this be taxed? :hmmm:
It already is :03:

The solution is easy
Just let the bureaucrats make some law in where Global warming is illegal.
See problem solved
Markus
:har: i guess that's the EU way

[Jeff-Groves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQLbakWESkw&t=2s

[Skybird]

Tesla teaches fear to German premium car makers - and shows how far in lead it really is. Their five year old car still beats Germans' newest e-cars in all relevant categories, namely range.

https://www-focus-de.translate.goog/auto/news/zahlen-zeigen-wahre-tesla-dominanz-ist-tesla-noch-zu-schlagen-fuer-deutsche-autobauer-sieht-es-nicht-gut-aus_id_90856450.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=de&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp


I once laughed about tesla, too. But no more.

[Catfish]

It is one thing to make money, it is an entirely different thing to be energetically better.

[Skybird]

Tesla scores in both. Range is, as the article says, the big deficit in even recent German e-cars. 5 year old Tesla model trumps them. Trumps them in sales numbers as well.


I nevertheless still wouldn't have one.

[mapuc]

I didn't read the article fully just partial.

What I wonder is: Have they solved the temp problems.

Meaning during Summer a electric car can go up to 5-600 km on one charge-During winter with temp below zero the same car can only go 2-300 km on one charge.

Markus

[Skybird]

Thats a problem every battery has, car battery or not, Tesla as well as any other.

My bicycle batteries loose in winter 20-30% range of their effective range when temps are above lets say 10°C. I notice differences below 5°, in the range 5-15°, and above 15°.

What would keep me away is the enormous value loss of e-cars with aging batteries. Its insane and turns the claim e-mobility would be ecologically sustainable a carricature. Throw away cars indeed.

And making batteries is in itself a VERY dirty affair, too.



I do not buy this marketing hype and political hype about battery mobility.

[Skybird]

These are some of the reasons why I would never buy a Tesla, even if I would want to buy an e-car (what I absolutely do not want to buy). Nor would I want to have anything to do with any of Musk's businesses.



https://twitter.com/lopezlinette/status/1590111416014409728?refsrc=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1590111416014409728%7Ctwgr%5 E8800643bc0113f0fe048cc9bb156d0bf0b72b297%7Ctwcon% 5Es1&amp;refurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fme diaembed%2Fyq1q0z%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueisnightmode%3 Dtrue%20Kommentar:%20Als%20Listicle%20mit%20aufz%C 3%A4hlung%201-X%20Video:%20Sent%20via%20Automations%20on%20%C2%A 92022%20Airtable

[nikimcbee]

Can this be taxed? :hmmm:


New York says yes.

[les green01]

i don't drive nothing newer than a 1980 anything newer is junk

[Ostfriese]

What I wonder is: Have they solved the temp problems.


It cannot be solved, as this is a matter of basic thermodynamics and chemical equilibrium. A change in temperature will always influence chemical reaction, lowering the temperature will always slow down a chemical reaction.



There can be workarounds, like a heating system that keeps the battery (which actually is an accumulator, not a battery) above a certain temperature, like 5°C or 10°C / 41-50 °F), but this of course also drains power from the accumulator, so in the end it doesn't change much about the range of the car (however, it definitely increases accumulator life).

[em2nought]

...and don't go taking those Telsas to the beach. :D
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2022/10/17/690430.htm

[August]

i don't drive nothing newer than a 1980 anything newer is junk

Dunno about that Les. I've had my share of pre 1980 cars and I have to say my present 2012 is better in a bunch of ways. Reliability, gas mileage, comfort. All much better than the best of my old rides.

The best one was my '78 Buick LeSabre. Like a hundred feet from bow to stern but was beautiful highway car.

[Rockstar]

i don't drive nothing newer than a 1980 anything newer is junk


I got a 04 highlander with 200,000 miles. What I look for in a car is accessibility and being able to perform basic maintenance tasks like changing the battery, transmission and engine oil, plugs, wires, starter, light bulbs, alternator, belts, struts, brakes and such. That’s getting harder if not impossible to find in newer cars.

Everyone thinks those LED head lights are the best thing since sliced bread, they look so cool!. Until just one diode goes out and they have to take it to a shop to remove the front clip in order to replace a whole headlight assembly for several hundred dollars. Me, I go to Walmart buy a $20.00 halogen bulb and replace it myself in under 5 minutes

[Eichhörnchen]

This is a bit like a fish saying "There's almost no reason to walk around on dry land"

[Skybird]

If this shows to have been a software fault and not driver's fault, then it would be a major PR desaster for Tesla. There have been desastrous incidents with Teslas before - but none so visually well-documented.

Personally, i may be able to get used to automatised railtrack traffic (subway, trains). But autonomous cars I will never feel acceptance for. The number of possible and unpredictable interfering variables that could mess up just any situation out of the blue, is beyond my tolerance level.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXByWF2PphM

[Jimbuna]

Me too.

[August]

Me too.




We'll see if you have a choice. I think they will find that for any auto-piloting scheme to work it will require every vehicle on the road to be on the same network or at the very least have some sort of transponder.

[Aktungbby]

If this shows to have been a software fault and not driver's fault, then it would be a major PR desaster for Tesla. There have been desastrous incidents with Teslas before - but none so visually well-documented.

Personally, i may be able to get used to automatised railtrack traffic (subway, trains). But autonomous cars I will never feel acceptance for. The number of possible and unpredictable interfering variables that could mess up just any situation out of the blue... Now kick it up to 80,000lb
with proposed big-rigs doing 55 mph on the Interstate hitting a bull moose on I-35 in Minnesota at 02:00 during the Fall out! :oops: https://cdllife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/hi-tractor-trailer-hwy-17-f-8col.jpg https://townsquare.media/site/529/files/2014/05/Tractor-trailer-accident-Potatoes.jpg?w=1200&h=0&zc=1&s=0&a=t&q=89

Me too. Me three!

We'll see if you have a choice. I think they will find that for any auto-piloting scheme to work it will require every vehicle on the road to be on the same network or at the very least have some sort of transponder.that'd hold up 'till fatboy in N.Korea hacks into said network; creating instant mayhem death and destruction across the continental USA?:oops:

[August]

that'd hold up 'till fatboy in N.Korea hacks into said network; creating instant mayhem death and destruction across the continental USA?:oops:


Don't need the NK's, just a bit of snow or road grime over the camera lens ought to do it. Transponders would help but unless you can get that moose to wear one it will also have issues.

[mapuc]

According to this Danish article. Owner of Tesla could be breaking the law in EU..

Danish TV2 News writes:

Tesla owners risk breaking law

Tesla's surveillance system, Sentry Mode, may be breaking EU GDPR rules. writes FDM's magazine, Engine.

Developments in technology on new Tesla models could mean that many Tesla owners risk breaking the law without even realising it.

The reason for this is to be found in Tesla's monitoring system, called Tesla Sentry Mode.

The monitoring system is designed to document and prevent theft, vandalism and road damage.

A Tesla is equipped with several cameras around the car that film passers-by. Both when the car is moving and when it is stationary. These are the cameras used by the surveillance system.

Update in conflict with the law
At the same time, an update in 2021 allowed Tesla owners to access the cameras on their app, so they could keep track of what was happening around their Tesla on their mobile.

With this feature, many Danish Tesla owners risk violating the TV surveillance law, writes FDM's member magazine, Engine.

According to the law, it is not allowed for private individuals to carry out TV surveillance of "streets, roads, squares or similar areas used for normal traffic".

- The development of camera technology in modern cars is rapid - and probably faster than the legislation has been able to keep up with, says FDM chief consultant Dennis Lange to FDM's member magazine, Engine

Forwarded to the Netherlands
A so-called data complaint has been filed with the Danish Data Protection Authority, but Tesla has its European headquarters in the Netherlands, and the request to the Data Protection Authority has therefore been forwarded to the authorities in the Netherlands.

It is now up to the Dutch authorities to investigate whether Tesla is in breach of EU GDPR rules.

- For the consumer, it is in any case crucial that the equipment the car comes with can be relied upon to be used legally, and if there are restrictions on this possibility, that the consumer is clearly informed about the circumstances under which the equipment may not be used, says Dennis Lange to Engine.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


Markus

[Catfish]

Since Musk is so effectively destroying Twitter, can we have him buy Facebook next?
:arrgh!:

[Skybird]

Since Musk is so effectively destroying Twitter, can we have him buy Facebook next?
:arrgh!:
Microsoft first, please.

[mapuc]

To stay a little off topic.

There were many public Danes who said they would deactivate their Twitter account when and if Musk buy Twitter.

Musk is now the owner.....and these Danes who had threaten to...are still there..talking about being hypocrite.

Back to discuss E-car Vs Gas car.

Markus

[Commander Wallace]

i don't drive nothing newer than a 1980 anything newer is junk

Generally, anything newer looks like a shoe box on wheels. There are of course, exceptions. Further, with all the sophisticated electronics on newer vehicles, It's virtually impossible to work on your own car without expensive equipment.

[Skybird]

Generally, anything newer looks like a shoe box on wheels. There are of course, exceptions. Further, with all the sophisticated electronics on newer vehicles, It's virtually impossible to work on your own car without expensive equipment.
Consideirng the degree to which these cars all are constantly connected with mother and collect data and send them somewhere, one can ask the question whether your car indeed is your own car - and not theirs. Like with computers and Windows 10, 11. As I see it, they lend the cars only - at a hilarioulsy high rent.

[GoldenRivet]

https://static.designboom.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/aptera-never-charge-solar-vehicle-designboom-001.jpg

I was once very excited about the sleek, futuristic look of the Aptera when it was first revealed. However, a man's "mission" defines the type of vehicle that the mission necessitates. For a very long time now i have been in a space in my life that required the long haul, long duration endurance towing capability offered by a heavy duty pickup truck. I had tools, equipment, travel trailer, ladders - everything i needed to not only live long term away from home, but also perform all of my work related duties while there - absolutely had to fit in, on and behind that truck and it had to carry the load sometimes 1,200 miles or more in a 48 hour period.

The offerings from electric car manufacturing that would do that, do not currently exist to my knowledge.

now, i am at a point where my Mission has definitely changed. BUT my truck is paid for free and clear, with a bumper to bumper power train lifetime warranty. Do i really want to sink cash into yet another vehicle? Financially for me right now it doesnt make much sense to do that.

On the longer term i see something similar to cash for clunkers like we had several years back. A government subsidized program in which you receive special financial incentives to trade in your gas burner vehicle for a select series of electric vehicles.

My fear is, we would be putting our eggs in one basket with EVs

when the great power outtage in the freak snow storm that wiped out most of the Texas electrical grid hit us (my home remained unaffected by this), however my in laws both in their 70s had no power. For the older folks out there this can be a life threatening situation. I was still able to load up my big off road 4x4 gas guzzler and drive across the frozen tundrascape to get them and bring them to our warm house with wood burning fireplace and cooking capabilities and running water etc. If i had an EV at the time, this simply would not have been possible for me to do.

with aggressive nations having access to nuclear weapons, how would an EMP impact the USA in 30 years when everyone has EVs? we would be in the horse and buggy days overnight. Let alone a natural disaster than leaves entire swaths of the gulf coast or atlantic coast without power for 2 or 3 days. what im getting at is - despite the rise of EVs, i believe that fuel burners will always have a place on our roads.

[Skybird]

The offerings from electric car manufacturing that would do that, do not currently exist to my knowledge.
You just have an incompatible mindset, you old-fashioned fossile. The way is the goal now, man. Take your time, this also benefits your work-life-balance.

And your income. But you cannot eat money anyway, so what do you lose!? Nothing!

:O:

[em2nought]

If everyone pitching EVs had experience with battery powered vs gas golf carts they wouldn't be so keen to push EVs on everyone.

[Skybird]

Asking for curiosity, regarding e-cars in general, not just Teslas:

Imagine there is a flood desaster, and the waters stands in the street as high as your hips. Subterraenas garages have it uo to the ceiling. Appartments at base floor (1stz floor) are under water.

What is with e-cars and their batteries being drowned in water? Sounds not like an ideal combination, high voltage batteries and plenty of water submerging them.

[em2nought]

Asking for curiosity, regarding e-cars in general, not just Teslas:

Imagine there is a flood desaster, and the waters stands in the street as high as your hips. Subterraenas garages have it uo to the ceiling. Appartments at base floor (1stz floor) are under water.

What is with e-cars and their batteries being drowned in water? Sounds not like an ideal combination, high voltage batteries and plenty of water submerging them.


I'm wondering what happens to Teslas in really bad winters when salt is used on the roads?

[Buddahaid]

Modern gas cars that get flooded into the interior are screwed anyway so I doubt it really matters. Everybody needs to by 1964 beetles.

[Skybird]

I am not asking about the car being ruined but the danger of electric power freed into the surrounding water - harming, maybe killing people swimming nearby. Electric eel effect.

Also chemical intoxication of the environment due to agents freed from the battery.

In e-car racing leagues, I read and saw that after an accident or when a car came to standstill, drivers are instructed to either sit still until the outside crew has made sure there is no electric currents on the chassis, or to not touch and step upon certain parts of the chassis in case it may be under electric power.

We all may recall household items, lamps and such, where we felt a certain low dose of electricty when we touched them, may it be a button, or a lamp pole, or a front plate. Should not be so - but happens.


Batteries in e-cars are located at the bototnm of the car, so they are the seocnd thing coming into contact if water is rising outside (after the wheels). And an accident may have cracked any isolation capsule. Bad manufacturing or a defective material/component also may open water a way to the battery. A tiny crack is enough. A gas tank leaking is not dangeorus as long as you do not ignite a spark in its vicinity. How is it about water and electric batteries in cars?

[Catfish]

Good thing Teslas will probably not burn under water.
Batteries may still explode there though ..

[Skybird]

But could you get electrocuted if you stand in the water near to the car?

[em2nought]

I think the bigger problem is Teslas have the British frigate versus the Argentinian Exocet effect of becoming raging metal fires that are apparently very hard to extinguish. https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2022/10/17/690430.htm (http://https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2022/10/17/690430.htm)


Sit in it if you want, but I'd get the hell out. :D

[Aktungbby]

https://static.designboom.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/aptera-never-charge-solar-vehicle-designboom-001.jpg

I was once very excited about the sleek, futuristic look of the Aptera when it was first revealed. However, a man's "mission" defines the type of vehicle that the mission necessitates. For a very long time now i have been in a space in my life that required the long haul, long duration endurance towing capability offered by a heavy duty pickup truck. I had tools, equipment, travel trailer, ladders - everything i needed to not only live long term away from home, but also perform all of my work related duties while there - absolutely had to fit in, on and behind that truck and it had to carry the load sometimes 1,200 miles or more in a 48 hour period.

The offerings from electric car manufacturing that would do that, do not currently exist to my knowledge.

now, i am at a point where my Mission has definitely changed. BUT my truck is paid for free and clear, with a bumper to bumper power train lifetime warranty. Do i really want to sink cash into yet another vehicle? Financially for me right now it doesnt make much sense to do that.

On the longer term i see something similar to cash for clunkers like we had several years back. A government subsidized program in which you receive special financial incentives to trade in your gas burner vehicle for a select series of electric vehicles.

My fear is, we would be putting our eggs in one basket with EVs

when the great power outtage in the freak snow storm that wiped out most of the Texas electrical grid hit us (my home remained unaffected by this), however my in laws both in their 70s had no power. For the older folks out there this can be a life threatening situation. I was still able to load up my big off road 4x4 gas guzzler and drive across the frozen tundrascape to get them and bring them to our warm house with wood burning fireplace and cooking capabilities and running water etc. If i had an EV at the time, this simply would not have been possible for me to do.

with aggressive nations having access to nuclear weapons, how would an EMP impact the USA in 30 years when everyone has EVs? we would be in the horse and buggy days overnight. Let alone a natural disaster than leaves entire swaths of the gulf coast or atlantic coast without power for 2 or 3 days. what im getting at is - despite the rise of EVs, i believe that fuel burners will always have a place on our roads.Having recently acquired a battery standby solar system and explored possibly getting a Tesla EV as well as (ex-longhaul trucker) taking a look at the Tesla battery big rig 18-WHEELER...aside from the issue of some polluting powerplant providing recharge electricity, negating the ecological argument for an EV, "range anxiety" is of principal concern as U discuss. The bottom line is: an EV cannot get U from point A to point B with minimal fuss. Recharge time, poor recharge-station infrastructure (as with hydrogen fuel stations for the Toyota Mirai:hmmm:) has left me contented with my '86 Camry and "05 Corolla, both with 275,000 low maintenance miles with minimal 'range anxiety'...and paid for! And I don't care for Elon Musk either...:D
https://www.geotab.com/blog/range-anxiety/

[Ostfriese]

But could you get electrocuted if you stand in the water near to the car?


Very unlikely.
It requires a closed circuit, which also has to offer the lowest electric resistance. You'd still have to get very close to one of the poles of the accumulator before you'd receive a shock strong enough to cause you harm. Also accumulator cells (especially those in cars) usually have automatic safeties that shut the entire cell down in case of a short circuit. This usually ruins the cell, but should trigger if water comes into contact with the cell itself.

As you mentioned the electric eel: as long as it doesn't touch you the shock can't harm you.
EV accumulators usually are pretty well protected from water, and unless the protection has been damaged it takes considerable time before dangerous amounts of water can come in. The core cells of lithium based accumulators have to be built air tight anyway (like almost every battery). An explosion could happen in theory, but this qould require the cell to be damaged and the amount of water to be exactly right, neither too little (reaction takes too long) nor too much (cooling effect of water becomes too strong).



Currents on the chassis: a car's chassis always carries a current. The 12V-accumulator in any car uses the chassis as ground. The same as above applies: unless you create a closed circuit with your body offering the least electric resistance you are safe. A driver in a racing car after a bad accident is a slightly different matter, the chassis is checked to make sure that even if the driver is somehow electrically connected (i.e. touching conducting material at any point) to the high power system he doesn't close the circuit.


Fires: a car fire almost always leads to a total (constructive) loss of the car unless it's extinguished quickly. Again the shell protecting an EV's accumulator should hold long enough if it's undamaged. Once it's damaged it's another matter entirely, though.


Salt in winter: to keep this out an EV accumulator just needs to be splash resistant, which it always is. No trouble here.




Metal fires: the problem usually is aluminum, of which we use a lot (because it's so common), and it's actually not a problem of burning. Aluminum is quite reactive and readily reacts with oxygen, but the resulting aluminum oxide forms a layer that protects any underlying aluminum. This occurs naturally, but the oxide layer can be strengthened by anodizing (common procedure). The oxide layer is so strong that aluminum can melt inside it's own oxide layer without the liquid metal dropping out. It deforms, though, and that's what happens in a fire (like in the USS Belknap fire, for example): the heat from the fire melts the aluminum inside it's oxide layer.
Igniting everyday metals (so that they truly burn) requires insane amounts of energy. Of those metals magnesium is the easiest to ignite, but it requires in excess of 1000°C, way beyond your ordinary fire. Aluminum could be another candidate, but this requires even higher temperatures AND the rupturing of the oxide layer in the right moment. Igniting iron is simply not possible, it's very hard to do even in an atmosphere of pure oxygen.

[Skybird]

Thats an extensive answer! :salute: :up:

[Ostfriese]

Thats an extensive answer! :salute: :up:


Sorry for the length, but after 20 years in accumulator technology research I simply can't help it.

[Eichhörnchen]

:haha: Don't worry: he likes extensive answers :)

[Skybird]

Yeah, no worries at all! I already suspected after Ostfriese's reply that he knows that stuff a bit better himself. Gude Antwort, alter Friese!

[August]

I saw a video the other day about someone recovering a speedboat that had sat at the bottom of a lake for over three decades. They were able to get the engine running with not a lot of work. Think an EV would fare so well in a similar situation?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ghmYGk4KT8

[Ostfriese]

I saw a video the other day about someone recovering a speedboat that had sat at the bottom of a lake for over three decades. They were able to get the engine running with not a lot of work. Think an EV would fare so well in a similar situation?


Why shouldn't it? Compared to a combustion engine/drive train an electric motor/drive train has fewer mobile parts, and even if water enters the core of the motor the corrosion damage should be manageable.
In general this is more a question of corrosion rather than the type of engine used.

[August]

Why shouldn't it? Compared to a combustion engine/drive train an electric motor/drive train has fewer mobile parts, and even if water enters the core of the motor the corrosion damage should be manageable.
In general this is more a question of corrosion rather than the type of engine used.




With all the stories about EVs being useless after being submerged I was just wondering.

[Ostfriese]

With all the stories about EVs being useless after being submerged I was just wondering.

You have to differentiate between the motor/drive train and the power source.

1) Both a combustion engine and an electric engine can survive prolonged periods submerged (and have done so in many cases), and as I said it's much more a question of the level of corrosion rather than the type of engine whether it can be used again with little effort.

2) For the power source it depends on the damage received, but in general electric power sources are more at riks in water compared to combustion engine fuel. The reason for that is rather simple: fuels (diesel, gasoline/petrol, kerosene or whatever you choose) are organic and usually hydrophobic and don't mix well with water (they are nonpolar substances), while the materials used to produce electric energy in batteries are hydrophilic (components need to be polar/ionic) and are more likely to be soluble in water. Any polar fuel (like ethanol/alcohol, for example) suffers from the same problem.

However, I doubt that any non-polar fuel that has been in direct contact with water for a prolonged time can directly be used to power an engine.

[August]

You have to differentiate between the motor/drive train and the power source.

1) Both a combustion engine and an electric engine can survive prolonged periods submerged (and have done so in many cases), and as I said it's much more a question of the level of corrosion rather than the type of engine whether it can be used again with little effort.

2) For the power source it depends on the damage received, but in general electric power sources are more at riks in water compared to combustion engine fuel. The reason for that is rather simple: fuels (diesel, gasoline/petrol, kerosene or whatever you choose) are organic and usually hydrophobic and don't mix well with water (they are nonpolar substances), while the materials used to produce electric energy in batteries are hydrophilic (components need to be polar/ionic) and are more likely to be soluble in water. Any polar fuel (like ethanol/alcohol, for example) suffers from the same problem.

However, I doubt that any non-polar fuel that has been in direct contact with water for a prolonged time can directly be used to power an engine.




But gas or diesel fuel in a gas powered engine is just a consumable whereas batteries in an EV must be replaced, correct?

[Ostfriese]

But gas or diesel fuel in a gas powered engine is just a consumable whereas batteries in an EV must be replaced, correct?


Yes. Even if the cells aren't damaged and remain watertight you'd have to exchange the important substances, and while you could call them "consumables" the entire process is far more difficult.

[mapuc]

I got this idea of a company

What I need is a reinvention of the battery
an expert or three with knowledge in batteries.

And of course experts in developing and making cars.


I have this huge dream about building cars with removable batteries. Where the batteries has the size of an iPad and with a capacity 40-50.000 times higher than todays car batteries used in E-cars and weight 1/20 of a car battery.

I see how people remove the batteries, install them in a charging stations and next day they are fully loaded.

Markus

[August]

I got this idea of a company

What I need is a reinvention of the battery
an expert or three with knowledge in batteries.

And of course experts in developing and making cars.


I have this huge dream about building cars with removable batteries. Where the batteries has the size of an iPad and with a capacity 40-50.000 times higher than todays car batteries used in E-cars and weight 1/20 of a car battery.

I see how people remove the batteries, install them in a charging stations and next day they are fully loaded.

Markus

I can refuel my old gas powered vehicle in two minutes. Overnight charging does not cut the mustard. There have been instances where i've driven 800 miles in one single day. That's not happening with an EV.

[mapuc]

I can refuel my old gas powered vehicle in two minutes. Overnight charging does not cut the mustard. There have been instances where i've driven 800 miles in one single day. That's not happening with an EV.

Thank you so much Dave for helping me remember.

My idea is that these batteries can be recharged within 30 min or less
and the battery will be neutral to temp. Same outcome whether it's minus 20 degrees C or + 25 Degrees C.

I imagine the car having 4 batteries.
1+2 batteries Engine
1 battery for the aircondition
1. battery for the electricity.

Markus

[Ostfriese]

Sorry, Markus, that's not going to happen. Downsizing batteries/accumulators without downsizing the capacity has it's limits, and we already are quite close to these limits, as long as we stick to electrochemical reactions, and for those there are no alternatives in sight. There are a few theories about using crystals as energy storages, but that's barely more than science fiction.

[mapuc]

Sorry, Markus, that's not going to happen. Downsizing batteries/accumulators without downsizing the capacity has it's limits, and we already are quite close to these limits, as long as we stick to electrochemical reactions, and for those there are no alternatives in sight. There are a few theories about using crystals as energy storages, but that's barely more than science fiction.

I knew you would come up with a response like this one.

It's a dream I have had for almost a decade now.

The idea/dream came when I read an article about Nano/bacteria batteries developed by M.I.T. in winter 2012. Since then I haven't heard anything about these batteries which I see as being dropped,so they has to be reinvented.

These NANO/bacteria batteries had following things compared to a 12 V car battery

(From memory)

weight 1/20 of a Car battery
Capacity 20-30.000 higher
Can't short circuit
Loading time less than 5 min(can't remember exact time)
Fully loaded 12.00000v each time.
No leaking electron

Edit
I made a search and found that there are companies who make these NANO batteries.....to smartphones a.s.o not bigger ones to cars.
End edit

Markus

[Skybird]

I could imagine - layman that I amn - to have flat slot accumulators that ciover the bottom of cars like it is the case today, and instead of recharging them, the full batter ygets replaced at a "gas station". like you switched cassettes in tape recorders. In asia theyx expeirment with thos, esoecialyl in China I read . The extracted battery then gets charged separately. The process, fully automatised could last just a slong as it takes to fuel a gas engoined car. How it is with themogistics needed for such a system, I do not assess, however. But the Chinese trying this, seem to think it can be managed, or not? Of course it needs standardization of accumulator specs and connectors.

VW's new boss, btw, has announced the company will no longer follow all-electric philosophy exclusively, and he said in his vision gas engines still have a future. Realism sets in, I say. The car model plans VW had, with a standardized default electricity platform that then gets further individualised for very model, already have been tackled. VW no longer plans to be all-electric. That is probably owed to the stupid German energy policy with the electritiy supply security being intentionally eroded by the current coalition government. Its stupid to make all your products all electric in a coutnry that becomes more and more unsafe regarding its electricity supply.

The German "visions" will collapse in full. Aber sowas von...! Too bad that I will need to witness it at close range.


My emergency solar battery of 2 kWh would not have gotten recharged much in the past 2-3 weeks. Dark skies at day, no sun.

[Ostfriese]

Exchanging accumulators is not a new idea, and it's technologically possible. But even if you manage to standardize the system down to a single type of cell block (with only different numbers of them in different cars) it won't become economical. It simply requires too much space to store all the spare accumulators.

[MaDef]

With all the stories about EVs being useless after being submerged I was just wondering.

EV's are useless in cold weather, range decreases by 40% (except for Ford Lightning that loses 70%). they also lose range when towing a trailer, They are also useless for long distance travel. :up:

[Skybird]

Exchanging accumulators is not a new idea, and it's technologically possible. But even if you manage to standardize the system down to a single type of cell block (with only different numbers of them in different cars) it won't become economical. It simply requires too much space to store all the spare accumulators.
Yeah, I feared the challenge with this approach lies in the logistics. Still, theChinese - I think it were the Chinese amongst all those Asians - still run this idea, as an experiment.



The way it is now - pausing a ride for 15-45 minutes to chgarge up, is not pratcial either. Better riding on horses then and changing the horses at post stations along the trail. :D

[Platapus]

EV's are useless in cold weather, range decreases by 40% (except for Ford Lightning that loses 70%). they also lose range when towing a trailer, They are also useless for long distance travel. :up:




You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. :D

[MaDef]

Which word is that?

EV = Electric Vehicle

Range = Distance said EV can go on a full charge.

[Platapus]

useless :)

[mapuc]

Which word is that?

EV = Electric Vehicle

Range = Distance said EV can go on a full charge.

First time I saw this abbr. EV I thought it meant electron volt

Then I remembered electron volt is eV.

Markus

[August]

useless :)




"Almost" useless then?

[Platapus]

Reduced capability. :)


A friend of mine has a Tesla and she drives from DC to GA and from DC to Maine and she never had a problem finding fast chargers.



During the coldest time in the winter her normally 300+ mile radius is reduced to about 200 miles.



Reduced capability but hardly useless. :03:

[Skybird]

FOCUS writes:

------------------------
Dramatic Tesla crash heralds end of Elon Musk's career

If Elon Musk were a celestial body, he would probably be described as a comet burning up before the eyes of a world audience. The comet's nucleus has already melted, and the tail of the stock price, visible from afar, illuminates the descent.

Within a year, the share lost 66 percent of its value. Around 240 billion U.S. dollars in stock market value were wiped out.

Parallel to the stock market value, Elon Musk's personal reputation has also suffered. Once celebrated like a prophet, the entrepreneur is now perceived in many places as a high-tech hooligan. Nobel laureate Professor Paul Krugman recently wrote on Page 1 of the New York Times, "I even wouldn't entrust my cat to this man."

There are essentially five reasons for the downfall:

1. Tesla has lost its monopoly on setting prices.

The Tesla Model Y Long Range with all-wheel drive now has to be knocked off at a bargain price in China. The automaker has just reduced the car by 6,656 euros. It is the second price reduction within a short time. Tesla already lowered prices in the Middle Kingdom in October.

In Germany, it's the same game. In November, 30 percent of all new Tesla cars were registered to rental car companies. Auto expert Prof. Ferdinand Dudenhöffer says: "The rising rental company registrations are a clear sign of incentives and discounts that Tesla is using to intervene in the market."

2. sales figures in China collapse

The pricing offensive is the result of competition that no longer admires Tesla, but attacks it. While the market for "new energy vehicles" in the Middle Kingdom reached an all-time high in December 2022, demand for Teslas has slumped. Data from the China Passenger Car Association (CPCA) shows Tesla sold 55,796 units in December, 44 percent fewer cars than in November.

Chinese supplier BYD is Tesla's strongest competitor in terms of sales of pure electric cars. If plug-in hybrids are included, BYD has now even become the global market leader.

The German automotive industry has also woken up and now offers technologically sophisticated electric cars that - like Porsche's Taycan or Mercedes' EQS - are superior to a Tesla vehicle. Meanwhile, Germany's entire auto budgets for research and development are flowing into what was once the niche segment of e-mobility.

3. Tesla has lost its innovation leadership

"At least in the U.S., we want to introduce autonomous driving technology on a large scale, and possibly in Europe, depending on regulatory approval."

Musk had promised this in August of last year.

The truth is: The Chinese competition has overtaken it in the field of autonomous driving. While Baidu offers robot cabs without drivers on public roads in China, only Level 2 semi-autonomous driving is possible with a Tesla. Level 2 means that it must be ensured that the driver always keeps his hands on the steering wheel.

Even the German manufacturers are now further ahead. Mercedes offers an Autodrive pilot in its S-Class that enables automated driving at Level 3, which may also be used on local highways. For the first time, humans relinquish control. The driver only has to potentially be able to intervene.

4 Technological lead in batteries is gone

BYD now has the greater battery know-how. The Chinese answer to the Model 3 is the BYD Seal. It is supposed to score with a range of over 700 kilometers. By way of comparison, according to the latest ADAC test, the standard range version of the Model 3 can be driven just 415 kilometers without recharging, assuming a moderate driving style.

5 Twitter deal has a negative impact on Tesla

Musk's Twitter deal revealed a playful trait in the 51-year-old that no longer seems cool, but "dumb" in the face of the entrepreneurial challenge at Tesla. "Musk is denied social competence," says car expert Dudenhöffer. As a result, he is no longer considered irreplaceable. There is already speculation among investors about his successor.

Musk is visibly withdrawing from the company and, according to Reuters, is putting Tom Zhu, his previous head of the China business, in place at least as a possible deputy. Bloomberg reported yesterday that an Icelandic investor is demanding a Key Person Risk Report. Important to know: Musk is already no longer the master of the company. Last year, he dumped a good $40 billion worth of Tesla shares, leaving him with a mere 14.84 percent stake in the company.

Conclusion: Elon Musk's farewell has begun. The aura of the invulnerable has faded. The competition was only hypnotized for a historic moment of shock - and then agreed on the favorite motto of all slashers: "Don't hate, imitate."
-------------------------

[Skybird]

I could say "Nobody will ever make me seating myself in a Tesla", but that does not chnage the fact that this thing is not only a risk to its passengers, but also to other people on feet or in other cars around.

https://www-focus-de.translate.goog/auto/elektroauto/news/geheime-tesla-akte-offenbart-autos-bringen-fahrer-immer-wieder-in-lebensgefahr_id_194851728.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp



A Tesla insider leaked around 100 gigabytes of confidential data from Tesla's IT system to the "Handelsblatt". The 23,000 files include salary information from Tesla employees, but also confidential documents about accidents involving Tesla's driver assistance systems.

Autipilots for trains and things on rails? Okay, I cna live with that. But a car in the public traffic space has a myriad of situaitosn and events to expect. I think it is a bad idea to leave navigating in such unpredictable cirucmstances to an AP. Heck, even a landing airplane has less variables and possibilities to consider.

Some weeks ago the demonstrated on TV a test of the autonomous driving of a Tesla, and they filmed it from behind the steering wheel. Well, it did not crash, but its manouvers sometimes were at the last second and then quite abruptly, same for turning into turns: sometimes it was okay. Sometimes it was simply dangerous both for the car and for incoming traffic. A relaxed travel experience looks different. Very.


What also pisses me big time is the customer policy of Tesla. But Musk is famous for having piss-off manners, doesn't he. And other companies practice the same way.

[Rockstar]

Some weeks ago the demonstrated on TV a test of the autonomous driving of a Tesla, and they filmed it from behind the steering wheel. Well, it did not crash, but its manouvers sometimes were at the last second and then quite abruptly, same for turning into turns: sometimes it was okay. Sometimes it was simply dangerous both for the car and for incoming traffic. A relaxed travel experience looks different. Very.


Seems to me the authors of that article are making out to be worse than what is because they were not operating the vehicle properly and were the ones placing themselves and others in jeopardy. If people rely on the medias expectations of how a Tesla is supposed to operate then they will eventually be the cause of an accident.

Owner/operators of these cars need to read the owners manual and accept full responsibility for its operation.

From Tesla X MODEL owners manual. I presume others have the same warnings.


Ensure all cameras and sensors (if equipped) are clean before each drive. See Cleaning Cameras and Sensors for more information. Dirty cameras and sensors, as well as environmental conditions such as rain and faded lane markings, can affect Autopilot performance.


Limitations

Many factors can impact the performance of Autopilot components, causing them to be unable to function as intended. These include (but are not limited to):

Poor visibility (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.).

Bright light (due to oncoming headlights, direct sunlight, etc.).

Damage or obstructions caused by mud, ice, snow, etc.

Interference or obstruction by object(s) mounted onto the vehicle (such as a bike rack).

Obstruction caused by applying excessive paint or adhesive products (such as wraps, stickers, rubber coating, etc.) onto the vehicle.

Traffic signs that do not conform to standard recognizable formats, such as digital or temporary speed signs.

Narrow or winding roads.

A damaged or misaligned body panel.

Use of gray or aftermarket glass.

Interference from other equipment that generates ultrasonic waves.
Extremely hot or cold temperatures.

Warning
The list above does not represent an exhaustive list of situations that may interfere with proper operation of Autopilot components. Never depend on these components to keep you safe. It is the driver's responsibility to stay alert, drive safely, and be in control of the vehicle at all times.

Warning
Autosteer is a hands-on feature. You must keep your hands on the steering yoke (or steering wheel) at all times.

Warning
Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver. When using Autosteer, hold the steering yoke (or steering wheel) and be mindful of road conditions and surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present. Never depend on Autosteer to determine an appropriate driving path. Always be prepared to take immediate action. Failure to follow these instructions could cause damage, serious injury or death.

To ensure the various Autopilot components can provide information that is as accurate as possible, keep cameras and sensors (if equipped) clean and free of obstructions, condensation, or damage (see Cleaning).

Condensation can form inside the camera enclosures, especially if you park your vehicle outside in cold or wet conditions. The instrument cluster may display an alert stating that a camera is blocked and that some or all Autopilot features may be temporarily restricted until the camera vision is clear. To proactively dry the condensation, precondition the cabin by setting it to a warm temperature, turning the windshield defroster on, and directing the front air vents toward the door pillars (see Mobile App).

[August]

The list above does not represent an exhaustive list of situations that may interfere with proper operation of Autopilot components. Never depend on these components to keep you safe. It is the driver's responsibility to stay alert, drive safely, and be in control of the vehicle at all times.


Kinda defeats the whole reason for a self driving car.

[mapuc]

We are decades from movie-like autodrive cars.

So much do I know:
In order to work fully each car need a transponder, which collect info and send info to other cars nearby.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Kinda defeats the whole reason for a self driving car.

After reading much of the media's expectations, I can see why people might think that. But the State doesn't test and license Autosteer to drive on its roads and Tesla never said Autosteer replaces a licensed human driver. A driver needs to read the owners manual not the latest headline to become aware of its limitations.

[Skybird]

Seems to me the authors of that article are making out to be worse than what is because they were not operating the vehicle properly and were the ones placing themselves and others in jeopardy. If people rely on the medias expectations of how a Tesla is supposed to operate then they will eventually be the cause of an accident.

Owner/operators of these cars need to read the owners manual and accept full responsibility for its operation.

From Tesla X MODEL owners manual. I presume others have the same warnings.
Too many incidents were the car suddenly got a life of its own, jump-started/accelerated from stop, slammed in the brakes while cruising. Add to that that "exciting" behaviour when turning into bends of a country road.



If the driver must all the time sit fully alarmed and hands ready to grab the wheel any second, and even then the car may suddenly play catch-me-if-you-can with the gas or break pedals, the the whole concept of autonomous driving imho is simply lead ad absurdum.



Musk knows this. He once said something like if Teslas cannot reliably fully autonomously drive, they are not more than totally overpriced gimmicks, something like that he said.


I also have a problem with the huge lossm of value. An e-car grows old the monent the battery is build into it, becasue the batteries always age, even if not use,d even if use,d even if kept ion storage unde rmost ideal conditions and with most ideal chargign status for storage. That thing looses on the maximum of power it cna hold, a tiny bit, but every day every hour. I know it from my e-bike batteries, the effect is real, you do not ntoice it form one month to the next, but you see a mild delcine in capacity form one yera to the next, and a much more obvious delcine form one year to the second or third next. Its cemistry you cannot avoid it. Even a lead-acid battery of old school technology sees this effect, though here it is extremely small.



Try to resell a lets say 6 or 8 years old e-car and not loosing an awful lot of money.



Considering all these implications and problems, e-cars imo are neither sustainable, nor cost-economic or rational. And I bet real money that in twnety years fossil fueld cars still drive in most parts of the world, maybe with the exception of Europe. Globally, there are just too many contexts, surroundings and situations where an -ecar simply bogs you down and does not provide the pragmatic 24/7 mobility that you expect from a car.

[Skybird]

After reading much of the media's expectations, I can see why people might think that. But the State doesn't test and license Autosteer to drive on its roads and Tesla never said Autosteer replaces a licensed human driver. A driver needs to read the owners manual not the latest headline to become aware of its limitations.
That is not true in my percpetion. Defnmetly the idea gets sold, both by state and potkicans and the industry, that we are very close to fully autmatic city with all-AI autonomnoisu drivng, driver-less cabs, there are even some (test?) busses in some cities that drive the line without a driver.

Either one talks about autonomous driving, or one means something different.

This is not some semi-automatic, AP-supported ILS landing with final approach flown by a human nevertheless. They talk about the fully autonomous car city.

Where cars chase each other or practice wolfpack tactics against human pedestrians. :D

[Rockstar]

According to the Tesla website: “ Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous”

[Skybird]

And I stick to what I say what kind of vision for the near future both industry and politics are advertising - and that goes far beyond this sobering text that is like a fall back to reality. They want fully autonomous driving, thats the political and the industrial advert.


What there is now, is pointless. When i need to spend as much attention to superivse the system as if I fully drive manually, then i have no use for that supervised sort of driving. Its idiotic - and Musk indicated that, too.



Add this, which I could have posted in three different threads. The whole idea of all-electric is unsustainable. And I say that since years.;) Germany for example would need for its imagined all-electric goals more additional copper than in the whole industrialisation in Germany so far has been used for electricty and telephone cables and other industrial additional purposes that consumed copper - ADDITIONALLY to the copper we already have spend. And that is just Germany.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2869409&postcount=323


Autonomous driving. Only electric cars. All electric industrial revolution. And all that is "sustainable". Pffft.... :haha:

[Skybird]

Okay, lets make this the e-car thread.



Automotive expert Professor Michael Bargende, former holder of the Chair of Vehicle Drives at the Institute of Automotive Engineering in Stuttgart, believes that the effort required for the charging infrastructure is completely underestimated. This is especially true when it comes not to slow AC charging in one's own garage, but to fast DC charging on highways. There, modern electric vehicles draw electricity at 100, 150, 250 or more kilowatts. Because of the special nature of the charging process, the batteries can usually only be filled to 80 percent, as the last 20 percent takes an extremely long time. Also, the charging power does not necessarily remain constant, so that the real charging time is often longer than promised by the manufacturer.


In a calculation, Bargende compared the performance of a gasoline pump with that of a charging station and came to the conclusion that, at least at peak times, such as at a busy gas station during the vacation season, the performance of a gasoline or diesel pump could only be replaced if 50 electric charging stations were available for this purpose . The calculation, Bargende said, is based on the following assumptions:


The pumping capacity of a gasoline pump is 35 liters per minute, which corresponds to 18 megawatts of energy.
Since the efficiency of the electric car is higher than that of the combustion engine by a factor of three, six megawatts of charging power are needed to achieve the same effect.
With an average charging capacity of 120 kW, this would still mean that 50 charging stations would be needed to replace one gas pump. For a typical highway service station with twelve pumps, this would theoretically require the use of 600 charging pumps.
https://www-focus-de.translate.goog/auto/news/elektroauto-boom-fuer-eine-zapfsaeule-braucht-man-in-der-urlaubszeit-50-elektro-ladesaeulen_id_194571133.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Good luck with charging on the Autobahn once e-cras are not just the official 2% of all traffic anymore.

Goooood luuuuck... Lots and lots of it. :har:
Maybe taking away from people the freedom of miblity is the real urpose behind all this? Lock them not down, but lock them to their place? Like in the Middle Ages the peasants were bound to the soil of their master's farmland, were not allowed to travel or move away?

[August]

After reading much of the media's expectations, I can see why people might think that. But the State doesn't test and license Autosteer to drive on its roads and Tesla never said Autosteer replaces a licensed human driver. A driver needs to read the owners manual not the latest headline to become aware of its limitations.

Of course, but if you have to remain 100% alert for hours and hours, with your hands on the wheel and your feet hovering over the pedals, constantly prepared to immediately take over like it says in that manual then you might as well drive manually and save yourself all the tension.

This isn't like autopilot on an aircraft where your altitude gives you time to put down the book you were reading and take over. If you loose autosteer in a fast moving car that is say going around a curve, you'll have to respond instantly to the situation or you will be off the cliff before you can prevent it. That is going to require a degree of constant concentration that will be difficult to maintain for any length of time. Ask anyone who has ever pulled guard duty how hard it can be to just stand there doing absolutely nothing while waiting for something to happen that may not.

Autosteer is never going to be anything but an expensive and useless gadget without it being truly and dependably autonomous.

[Onkel Neal]

If Toyota actually delivers on the hype, this could be a ... big deal (wanted to say game changer but Wendy won't allow it).

https://www.topspeed.com/toyota-745-mile-solid-state-battery/

Toyota has been secretly developing a solid-state battery for EVs with a range of 745 miles and a charge time of 10 minutes, which could revolutionize the industry.

A solid-state battery is quite simple to explain. It stores its electrical charge in a solid electrolyte (other types of batteries use a liquid or paste-like one). They’re commonly used in small devices like pacemakers, RFIDs, and other things that demand little electricity. Because they have a very high energy density compared to other battery types (that is, they can store more electricity than other batteries of the same size), solid-state batteries seem like a natural fit for electric cars. But they don’t do well in cold weather, tend to weaken quickly after repeatedly getting charged and drained, are particularly costly, and have other issues that prevent them from going into every laptop, smartphone, and car.

The rise of EVs has made battery research a lot more profitable than it was a mere ten years ago, and scientists have been working on overcoming the shortcomings of solid-state batteries. Toyota is the first company that has come out and said it may have solved the range and battery weight problems.

[Skybird]

^ If that is true and the longevity is not just 3 years or so, then we start talking serious about e-cars.


Its just that I am a bit sceptical (like often :D ), since I know the physics problems to overcome are real and cannot be bribed away. Charging for 1000 km in 10 minutes? I want to see it working, then I believe it.



If its true for sure, we will learn more about it soon enough.


The problem with the charging infrastructure remains, however. Also, the costs. E-cars are expensive, its the reason why the numbers sold in Germany have dropped when the last round of subsidies ran out. Currently traders stockpile them in high heaps over here, they dont get rid of them.

[Dargo]

A student team from the university (Eindhoven University of Technology) began developing a new battery pack in 2022, aiming to bring down the charging time of an electric car. The students call the tight four-minute charging time a "pit-stop-worthy" speed. That they are testing with a race car is not for nothing, says team manager Julia Niemeijer. "If our technology works in the toughest conditions, it could be applied anywhere. At race speed, the battery will last about eight laps on a circuit, but the maximum range is about 250 kilometers." But the system can be adapted so that a range of 500 kilometers can also be achieved, without increasing the four-minute charging time, says Niemeijer. "If we make the package bigger and enough energy goes to it, we achieve the same charging time."

During development, the students focused mainly on cooling the batteries. With fast charging, the quality of a battery decreases because it can get very hot. "What we have done now is cool each cell in the battery pack," says Niemeijer. "This allows us to get much more heat out of it and we can charge much faster." For this purpose, a cooling system has been developed that runs coolant between the battery cells. The students say cooling at the cell level is not yet common. Therefore, they had to develop this themselves. "It was especially challenging that there were only a few millimeters of space between the cells. As a result, we had to be very precise. We are extremely happy to have found a method that makes this possible," says Niemeijer. By showing that it is possible to reduce the charging time of an electric car, the students aim to make electric driving more attractive to consumers. "You can say 'only buy electric cars', but then it is also important that consumers find it user-friendly," says Niemeijer.

When the technology can be applied in regular cars, Niemeijer does not dare to say. "I hope it will be soon, but we depend on external parties for the cells. We make the battery packs around them."

[mapuc]

The first of two steps seem to be within reach-the charging time.
Next step is to reduce the size and weight of the battery, but with same capacity.

Markus

[Dargo]

The first of two steps seem to be within reach-the charging time.
Next step is to reduce the size and weight of the battery, but with same capacity.

MarkusWith reducing charging time you do not need big batteries, this will solve above problems.

[mapuc]

With reducing charging time you do not need big batteries, this will solve above problems.

Imagine a car battery(used in ordinary gasolin cars) with which you could drive 700-800 km on when fully charged.

This is what I meant. Same capacity but only 1/20th of the size.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Probably not within the next decade.

[Jeff-Groves]

They probably already have it.
It just takes years to adjust to how they are gonna make a profit off it.
Can't just dump oil without the transition time needed. No one is going to do an instant change from making Billions a month to any new technology.

[August]

Imagine a car battery(used in ordinary gasolin cars) with which you could drive 700-800 km on when fully charged.

This is what I meant. Same capacity but only 1/20th of the size.

Markus




By "car" do you mean something that can haul a 5,000lb trailer and 5 adults with luggage or something like a Renault Twizy?

[mapuc]

By "car" do you mean something that can haul a 5,000lb trailer and 5 adults with luggage or something like a Renault Twizy?
Ha Dave never gave that a thought.

I say the first one.

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

I think EVs are great for some applications: city driving, mostly. For hauling and interstate travelling, good ol' internal combustion is still the best.

[Onkel Neal]

And not so great for cold weather, what a PIA.

https://archive.ph/g7ssu



With Chicago temperatures sinking below zero, electric vehicle charging stations have become scenes of desperation: depleted batteries, confrontational drivers and lines stretching out onto the street.

“When it’s cold like this, cars aren’t functioning well, chargers aren’t functioning well, and people don’t function so well either,” said Javed Spencer, an Uber driver who said he had done little else in the last three days besides charge his rented Chevy Bolt and worry about being stranded with a dead battery — again.

Mr. Spencer, 27, said he set out on Sunday for a charging station with 30 miles left on his battery. Within minutes, the battery was dead. He had to have the car towed to the station.

“When I finally plugged it in, it wasn’t getting any charge,” he said. Recharging the battery, which usually takes Mr. Spencer an hour, took five hours.

[Skybird]

^ My bicycle batteries temporarily loose around 25-30% of the range they provide duringn autumn and spring and summer. And winter means modest German weather, temps around zero and up to almost 10°C in my place. In "winter".


And the joy when people wamnt to resell their ecars after some years. The loss of value will hit them in the face with a brickstone. Again, thats due to the constantly degrading battery. Even at optimal workigjn cidntions, or not even charged and uncharged at all, it slowly degrades over time. Replacing the battery in sch cars is not economic and not cost-efficient.



The way they think e-cars, simply is a dud, and is thought in ignorrance of the laws of physcis and chemistry. New battery types despite all talk and hyping, are at least ten years or more away. Until then it will be Lithium, and Lithium alone.


Its like with these flying cars and autonomous driving. Endless hypign, endless tlaking. Technically possible but delayed and delayed due to the devil hiding in the details.

[Aktungbby]

what a PIA/\...Bottom line: Elon Musk is an overbearing snake oil salesman; the technolgy won't work with regard to freight trucks and recharging on a Tesla pickup truck trip of 1200 miles with stops to recharge takes 7 hours longer...and, throwing in the cost of my therapy for "distance anxiety" I'll nose around Hertz's impending sale of most of its EVs for an intown grocery getter. :hmmm: The cost and backlog of EV repairs is out of all proportion to conventional vehicals. My boat captain/neighbor just bought himself a new Chevy EV SUV Volt and is awaiting a level 2 recharger to be integrated to his Tesla solarpower system for speedier rechage times; ergo, I'll have ample opportunity to study the situation closely. I did ask him about an app to simulate an engine's 'throaty roar'...and apparently there is one-hopefully in Ferrari!:O:

[Skybird]

Tesla officially claims the range is 513 km, the driver killed the battery from 100% to 0% and did not drive aggressively. He reached 243km range.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwg_20_F5Sc


I would want neither a Tesla nor any other electric car. Especially if I have to pay fantasy prices for such a nonsense gadget. I would not even want an ecar for inner city business, the whole idea of having to spend so much time and paying so much attention just to get "fuel in the tank" in time, and then having to mimimi-nurse it during driving just to not die right on the street with 0%, is hilarious imo. And just for the city these cars are way too expensive.

Nevertheless the EU works on legislation that makes it illegal to own an old fossile car beyond the year 2035 or so. They want to force people to hand their old gasoline-run cars over by then. That was so far a taboo. Now its being tried to turn it into a reality.

However I think the concept is so obviously a dud that the whole project of enforcing e-cars sooner or later will and must collapse. It just will not work the way the supersmarties have figured it out.

[Onkel Neal]

Starting to look like the craze is fading...:doh:

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ev-electric-vehicle-slowdown-ford-gm-tesla-b20a748e

The Michigan plant where the F-150 Lightning electric truck is built used to vibrate with excitement.

President Biden visited in 2021 and test drove the blazing-fast pickup. Before the first ones even started rolling off the assembly line in the spring of 2022, Ford said it would expand the factory to quadruple the number it could build.

That energy is rapidly fading. Ford is cutting the plant’s output by half, and workers are relocating to other facilities, mostly those making gas-powered pickups and SUVs.

The sudden change “was a little bit of a shocker,” said Matthew Schulte, who inspects trucks at the factory in suburban Detroit. “Reality has set in.”

[mapuc]

Speaking of Ford and electric cars

By dubbing its own operation as a “Skunk Works” team, Ford is seeking to put the scale of the matter front-and-center.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/09/cars/ford-skunk-works-designing-a-cheap-ev/index.html

They still need to improve the batteries-Which I hope will come within the next couple of years.

Markus

[Platapus]

I think EVs are great for some applications: city driving, mostly. For hauling and interstate travelling, good ol' internal combustion is still the best.




:agree:

[Reece]

The idea of electric cars has mostly been scrapped over here in Australia, never caught on. Also it seems that is is uneconomical due mostly for battery costs and disposal. :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

I'll stay out of Waymo driverless taxis in Frisco! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYTZRb-SWhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIpXkQhq1ps

[Reece]

I'll stick to my old Ford thanks!! :yep:

[em2nought]

I'll stick to my old Ford thanks!! :yep:

Somethin' like this? :D

https://c4.wallpaperflare.com/wallpaper/649/157/240/mad-max-interceptor-windows-desktop-mad-max-interceptor-wallpaper-preview.jpg

[Reece]

Somethin' like this? :D

https://c4.wallpaperflare.com/wallpaper/649/157/240/mad-max-interceptor-windows-desktop-mad-max-interceptor-wallpaper-preview.jpg

Yeh, that's it!! :smug::cool::D

[Skybird]

Also it seems that is is uneconomical due mostly for battery costs and disposal. :hmmm:
This. This and always this again.

The whole idea does not compute as well as they try to make it appear.

In past months tere were repeated tests by German reviwers and cra enthiusiasts in our media. There conclusions were on qulity, durablity, range of especially Tesla models were in their mildest form deeply sobering, sometimes simply obliterating. And repairs were extremely costly, while reselling value was exceptionally low (which does not surprise me one bit).

Ecars for short distances inside cities, service cars: maybe, I cannot competently judge that, but have my ebike experience, I could ikmagien ecars in cities work, but not for every private household (too expensive). But as Neal already mentioned: I think for trucking, freight moving, overland travelling, families needing their cars for both in- and outside cities travelling : an idiotic idea. Too expensive. And not ecologically sustainable.

[Onkel Neal]

This. This and always this again.

The whole idea does not compute as well as they try to make it appear.

Ecars for short distances inside cities, service cars: maybe, I cannot competently judge that, but have my ebike experience, I could ikmagien ecars in cities work, but not for every private household (too expensive). But as Neal already mentioned: I think for trucking, freight moving, overland travelling, families needing their cars for both in- and outside cities travelling : an idiotic idea. Too expensive. And not ecologically sustainable.

Yes, I think you're right. Plus, it's possible/likely that a new tech, like the solid state batteries Toyota is working on, could render the current EVs obsolete. Imagine spending $60,000 on a 2024 EV and a 2025 model with a radically different power system comes out at the same price point but with double the range and 10 min charging time. Who would want to be stuck with the crappy old version?

[Aktungbby]

...what also hasn't really been discussed is the miserable cost of repairs to the Tesla developement one-piece carbody that houses the huge and heavy battery. The repair infrastructure and turnaround time is poor as the current focus is on building new EVs, not fixing old ones. Insurance premiums are accordingly higher. https://electrek.co/2023/09/14/tesla-breakthrough-single-piece-car-casting-report/There are a lot of detractors who badmouth the whole casting system as more difficult to repair. If the quarter panel is really damaged, now they replace it. If the car's casting is too damaged, it will be totaled as uneconomically repairable and the body will be stripped of its parts, especially the most expensive part, the battery, and the body will be melted down and recast.

Another issue that the naysayers ignore is that there are so many sheet metal cars that are so severely damaged by rust that they're not road worthy and unrepairable. That's not going to be as big a problem with castings.

[mapuc]

Debunking some myth about E-cars

Factcheck: 21 misleading myths about electric vehicles

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/

Markus

[August]

Yes, I think you're right. Plus, it's possible/likely that a new tech, like the solid state batteries Toyota is working on, could render the current EVs obsolete. Imagine spending $60,000 on a 2024 EV and a 2025 model with a radically different power system comes out at the same price point but with double the range and 10 min charging time. Who would want to be stuck with the crappy old version?


Reminds me of personal computers. I once spent two grand on a 486 laptop with Windows 3.1 only to see win 95 Pentiums come out a year later.

[Jimbuna]

Reminds me of personal computers. I once spent two grand on a 486 laptop with Windows 3.1 only to see win 95 Pentiums come out a year later.

I wouldn't be surprised if that also happened to a few more people hereabouts :)

[Ostfriese]

Yes, I think you're right. Plus, it's possible/likely that a new tech, like the solid state batteries Toyota is working on, could render the current EVs obsolete. Imagine spending $60,000 on a 2024 EV and a 2025 model with a radically different power system comes out at the same price point but with double the range and 10 min charging time. Who would want to be stuck with the crappy old version?


That's extremely unlikely, to say the least.

[Skybird]

Has the EU overturned the ban on combustion engines?


https://www-focus-de.translate.goog/auto/news/verbrenner-aus-gekippt-brisantes-leak-aus-bruessel_id_259734369.html?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de


I predicted that this ban would not hold. It simply is impossible to do, at least within the planned timeframe. And the rest of the world continued to revolve around the sun, even if the EU planned to make the sun revolve around Brussels.

[THE_MASK]

Where i live in a major city in Australia the price of standard gas is equivelant to $10.40 a us gallon . Thats why i have an electric fat tyre electric bicycle and an electric scooter for getting around on a daily basis . Will be getting a Tesla for longer trips .

[Onkel Neal]

Reminds me of personal computers. I once spent two grand on a 486 laptop with Windows 3.1 only to see win 95 Pentiums come out a year later.


Yes, that's it, exactly. Except $60 grand is a bit more of a bite. Plus, when things go wrong with an EV, it's serious money to repair--talking Land Rover money $$$

I had a friend who drove a nice gas-powered car, was solid, a few years old but worked fine. He had it overheat, so he stopped and when it cooled down, refilled the radiator and went on. It overheated again, he repeated. And when I say it overheated, I mean, he didn't noticed the temp gauge buried in the red, he noticed the antifreeze smell and the car slowing down.:hmmm:

He took it to a shop, they changed the radiator (why? I don't know, they obviously didn't test it). Did not fix the problem. So, instead of getting a competent shop to find the problem, he kept driving it. Yeah, in a week it seized up. Now he's looking at used cars at the $30,000 range to replace it. It would have been a lot smarter to spend $500 or so to diagnose the issue and fix it.

Now with EVs, when they break down, how many of us can repair the battery system?:o

[August]

Now with EVs, when they break down, how many of us can repair the battery system?:o


Exactly and even if we could the parts would be a heckuva lot more than 500 bucks.

[nikimcbee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyrXlz7J6P0


Sounds like Wenndy is making news stories on the side?

[nikimcbee]

Yes, that's it, exactly. Except $60 grand is a bit more of a bite. Plus, when things go wrong with an EV, it's serious money to repair--talking Land Rover money $$$

I had a friend who drove a nice gas-powered car, was solid, a few years old but worked fine. He had it overheat, so he stopped and when it cooled down, refilled the radiator and went on. It overheated again, he repeated. And when I say it overheated, I mean, he didn't noticed the temp gauge buried in the red, he noticed the antifreeze smell and the car slowing down.:hmmm:

He took it to a shop, they changed the radiator (why? I don't know, they obviously didn't test it). Did not fix the problem. So, instead of getting a competent shop to find the problem, he kept driving it. Yeah, in a week it seized up. Now he's looking at used cars at the $30,000 range to replace it. It would have been a lot smarter to spend $500 or so to diagnose the issue and fix it.

Now with EVs, when they break down, how many of us can repair the battery system?:o


Does the car software crash, if you don't update to the latest version windows?

[Onkel Neal]

https://jalopnik.com/ford-lost-100-000-on-every-ev-it-sold-so-far-this-year-1851472325

It’s tough breaking into the electric vehicle game these days. Startups like Rivian and Lucid have posted massive losses while launching their lineups, General Motors has been slow to ramp up production of EVs and now Ford has shared some truly eye-watering losses from its own electric arm at the start of this year.

The blue oval reportedly lost more than $100,000 for every electric car it delivered in the first quarter of 2024, according to a report from Bloomberg. The sky-high loses forced the American automaker to rethink its EV targets and even cut battery orders for future models. As the site explains:

Ford Motor Co. has begun cutting orders from battery suppliers to stem growing electric-vehicle losses, according to people familiar with the matter, as it throttles back ambitions in a rapidly decelerating market for plug-in models.

The move is part a retrenchment of Ford’s EV strategy, which includes reducing spending by $12 billion on battery-powered models, delaying new EVs, cutting prices, and postponing and shrinking planned battery plants. Ford has forecast EV losses of up to $5.5 billion this year and Chief Executive Officer Jim Farley recently said its EV unit, Model e, “is the main drag on the whole company right now.”

The EV unit’s “drag” on the rest of the company is growing. In the first three months of 2024, Bloomberg reports that losses on every EV sold by Ford doubled to $100,000. In fact, the losses on EV sales are so great at Ford that Bloomberg predicts that over the course of this year they could wipe out all profits made by the Blue division, which is the company’s gas-powered car side.

Losses like this are staggering to see, and just go to show how important it is for EV production costs to start falling, quickly. Thankfully, Ford at least appears to be workin on this, with the company announcing earlier this year that it has an electric model in the pipeline that will be both affordable and profitable. Imagine that!

Affordable and profitable usually share an inverse relationship. If they cannot make a profit from $60,00 e-cars and $80,000 e-trucks, how are they going to wring a profit out of a $28,000 budget e-car?

[Platapus]

Dropped my car off at the dealer for servicing and was able to get an EV as a loaner. Subaru Solterra. I will see how it is on my daily crappy commute.



The Solterra is one of the EV's I am thinking of getting in late 2025. It is not at the top of my list, but it seems like a nice vehicle.



There is a learning curve though so we will see if this old dog can learn some new tricks. :03:

[August]

I just bought a 2019 Pathfinder. I'm hoping this one will last me at least until the 2030's.

[mapuc]

I just bought a 2019 Pathfinder. I'm hoping this one will last me at least until the 2030's.

Why year 2030 why not longer ?

As I understand this new anti-combustion law it only say that production of these type of cars are forbidden after Jan 1st 2030/35. It's not forbidden to buy a new car in 2027 and drive it for an another 30 years if one would love to.

Markus

[Skybird]

The EU wise persons' board wants to release legislation that makes it illegal to operate combustion engine cars a la Cuba style. They want to prohibit even ownership already just a few years after the sales ban.



Worse and worse.


I just wonder whether that sales ban will ever come true. Reality may not submit to ideology. It will get extended, and maybe even more than just once.

[August]

Why year 2030 why not longer ?

As I understand this new anti-combustion law it only say that production of these type of cars are forbidden after Jan 1st 2030/35. It's not forbidden to buy a new car in 2027 and drive it for an another 30 years if one would love to.

Markus


I guess it will mainly depend on how well it holds up. I figure that once I retire in 2030 I will not need to have reliable long distance ground transportation and instead will probably get a old pickup truck made before the advent of vehicle computers so I can work on it myself.

[Oubaas]

I don't think electric cars are going to make it. They're expensive. And if everybody gets one, it will probably collapse our rickety old grid here in the US.

We should go back to steam. With modern technology, bringing one up to pressure would be a matter of seconds instead of minutes. And they'd be much lighter than they used to be.

I wonder why the automakers don't offer a model powered by something like the Cyclone Engine from Cyclone Technologies? It would be better than electric or hydrogen or any of that other stuff.

There's some company trying to get started selling mini-reactors to power homes and remote sites and things. I was reading about them the other day.

Why not pair a mini-reactor with the Cyclone Engine in automoobiles? Zero carbon cars.

:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Skybird]

No, we need horses, but a special breed of horses with anti-burp systems and fart filters.

Ah, damn, animal wellbeing. No horses then. Bicycles. Thats the German way. China builds 240 new airports until 2032 or 2033. Germany puts its money on bicycles. Or as EVP-head Manfred Weber (CDU) of the EU said: "We must convince the world that our way is the only right one."

[Oubaas]

Convincing me to believe that anything "they" say is valid became impossible quite a few years ago. Manfred must still be wet behind the ears if he truly believes that anyone with more than four functioning brain cells still believes anything promulgated by the people who labor under the delusion that they run things. Sorry Manfred, automatically rejected as untrue. You'll have to sell that idea to the folks of whom P. T. Barnum spoke.

The name of the mini reactor is the NuScale Modular Reactor. It was just recently approved by the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Meanwhile, they're assembling ITER in France, a fusion reactor that I think uses molten salt.

Now, if NuScale could shrink their reactor down to automobile size, with consumer pricing, and the automakers paired it with the Cyclone Engine, we'd have zero carbon cars that don't need gas stations! So much the better if NuScale could shrink and modularize the ITER technology and use fusion.

As for electric cars, think of poor Texas with their grid.

"What happened? Why did the power go off?"

"The people in Austin just got home from work and plugged in their cars."

:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Shadowblade]

unluckily EU plans to ban classic cars,
so we can enjoy overexpensive electrocars,
stupid EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2HX5wsQVEA

[mapuc]

What's the correct information regarding banning combustion engine from 2030 ?

'Cause here it is said it is the Production and import of these type of cars who will be forbidden after Jan. 1st 2030. It will not be forbidden to drive these cars after this day.

Markus