S-Boat Incorrectly Modeled

[YellowFin]

I like starting my careers in S-Boats. The stock settings for this class are incorrect and make realistic S-Boat deployments difficult, if not impossible.

According to real war patrol reports they would usually run submerged during the day, at around 3 kts, and recharge during the night, sometimes even just laying to instead of actually travelling. As a general rule the boats were surfaced between 1830 and 0430 in the morning. This apparently allowed to regenerate enough battery power.

Real S-Boats had 2 diesel engines and could travel at 2/3 ahead on one, while the other charged the batteries. This was especially useful when one of the engines gave up, or burned or otherwise made those men's lives hard.

In game this is not possible, as staying submerged at 3 kts, even without maneuvering drains the battery in about 6-7 hours down to less than 30% and a full night (1830-0430) of charging only gives me back about 20%.

In my view the stock S-Boat uses too much electrical power at a factor of 1.3 or so and recharges a factor 4-5 too slowly.

In the sub systems screen I see two engines modeled. Is the power generation / drive engine split possible? Could it be modded?

There is Webster's S-Class Mod for v1.4 & v1.5, which debuffs S-Boats to an extent, but it definitely allowed for realistic submerged/surfaced portions of the patrol. Unfortunately it messes with the sound fixes of FOTRSU, which is why I had to remove it.

Am I experiencing an anomaly or do others see the same problem? How are the other boat types in terms of battery charging times? Realistic? Over powered, under powered?

Greetings and safe hunting!

[propbeanie]

One thing with all of the boats in the game, stock or modded, is to use the knot gauge, not the standard telegraph. When you run at Ahead 1/3 on the gauge, the boat attempts to do 3 knots, which does drain the battery rather rapidly. Instead, use the knot gauge by clicking on the hamburger menu below the telegraph. Now click on the "1" one knot mark, and you should get quite a few more hours out of your batteries. I was reading of one of the S-Boats that left out of Bremerton Washington enroute to Dutch Harbor for their first war station in March of 1942, and they were only getting as little as 6 hours out of their batteries, and would have to sometimes lay still submerged for the cover of darkness, and then have to stand to more for the engines to charge the batteries, since they wouldn't hardly charge. They sent them to war in that... yeesh!... Of course, my dad went across the Pacific in early '43 in an LST, and then they later rode out a hurricaine in another... again - yeesh! "Nothing to it", he says...

Sorry, got distracted... Another thing - when you activated the FotRSU mod, and then removed Webster's S-Boat mod, did you empty the Save folder? That would still have some bad data in it, if you hadn't emptied it, whether you saved a game or not. :salute:

[YellowFin]

Thanks for the quick reply!

Yes, in fact I did a complete uninstall / directroy deletion (incl savegames) / registry cleaning / reboot / reinstall / JGSME fresh install snapshot and only then activated ONLY FOTRSU.

Yeah, on second thought I realized I don't really know how much battery life the S-Boats had. Some probably had even less than stock game boats. I think it was S-36 who spent one of its first patrols pretty much on only one engine the whole time. I imagine they didn't move far neither during the day nor at night.

Maybe I should first start out with properly researching the actual realistic ranges and charging times for these S-Boats. Just from reading a few reports my gut feeling told me that the stock game charging time is way off.

I checked Websters mod and changed

E_propulsion (all values) and Ranges (submerged values)

from the FOTRSU S-Boat to his, using S3ditor. I hope this is okay, for my own testing purposes?

First time I modded myself SH IV, pretty proud of that.

How do these values interact?

E_propulsion
eng_power
eng_rpm
Ranges
Surfaced
miles
knots
Submerged
miles
knots


I suppose Ranges across speeds are linked with a quadratic equation of some sort, to model increased fuel / capacity usage at non-optimal speeds?

Which value determines charging speed? Is charging in-game linked to speed?

The reverse is obviously true, as you gain a knot or two when refraining from charging. In reality I believe boats were able to run at least at 2/3 without suffering any speed loss. One engine would charge while the other drives the prop shaft.

[propbeanie]

I don't think there was an attempt to "model" much of anything close to reality in the game, just an attempt to control desired aspects somewhat realistically. Most of the numbers used are just "modifiers", and not actual numbers. Unfortunately, you end up with one setting affecting the others in related areas, and also in seemingly unrelated areas, so that if you change the range, you might change the actual speed the boat travels at, and / or its 'efficiency' as far as fuel usage goes, both for diesel and electric, plus maybe influence the charge times. Myself, I've never tweaked much in the sim files, and left that to CapnScurvy since he's a more experienced modder, by a long shot. But you can do what you want, since it is your game. Tweak to your heart's content. Doing so does make it more difficult for us to track troubles you might encounter, but it's not the end of the world if you alter things...

I would suggest though, that you build yourself a mini-mod for each aspect that you want to experiment with, so that if something fails, you can easily rollback your changes. In other words, create a folder in the MODS folder, and name it like "SBoatEdits". Under that, create a "Data" folder. Under that, a "Submarine" folder, and under that, an "NSS_S18" folder (or which ever boat you're modding). Then copy the sim file from the game over into the new folder you made, and edit it how you think will be good, then "activate" your mod, and see how it works. If it doesn't, or you want to change it, just back off the mod, do more edits, and re-activate it. If you find something you like, let us know, and we can "certify" it for you as an "official" FotRSU mod to share with others, or even incorporate it into the mod, if you want, giving you full credit for the edits, with your permission...

As a side note, you might notice in FotRSU (stock is similar) that the S18 has 17 files in its "Submarine" folder, while the S42 only has five. The S42 uses the main files of the S18 for its 3D build, such that changes you make to the S18 are also reflected in the S42, unless you alter the eqp, or sns, etc files. The S42 is a small clone of the S18 boat. They both have separate sets of cfg files, but share the same 3D files. :salute:

[YellowFin]

This is extremely helpful. I will set up my mini mod as per your suggestion. I don't mess with 3D files or textures, as appearance isn't my main concern and as I find tweaking values much more interesting and rewarding :O:

[YellowFin]

Is Webster still active? Maybe he could chime in with his understanding of how the game models charging / fuel consumption and efficiency decreases at non-optimal speeds.

Any pointers to real-life


ranges
charging times
and consumption of fuel or battery capacity at various speeds


are also welcome.

[YellowFin]

https://pigboats.com/subs/s-boats.html Mostly pictures

[YellowFin]

https://maritime.org/doc/subsinpacific.htm#pg4

According to this source: A 120 cell electric storage battery was provided for submerged operations. When fully charged, the battery provided a submerged endurance of about 36 hours at creeping speed of about 2 1/2 knots, and maximum speed of 10 knots for about 1/2 hour.

[YellowFin]

Then copy the sim file from the game over into the new folder you made, and edit it how you think will be good, then "activate" your mod, and see how it works. If it doesn't, or you want to change it, just back off the mod, do more edits, and re-activate it.
How do I ensure my version of the .sim is used, and not the FOTRSU version? Load my mini mod first?

If you find something you like, let us know, and we can "certify" it for you as an "official" FotRSU mod to share with others, or even incorporate it into the mod, if you want, giving you full credit for the edits, with your permission...

Yes, when I found a satisfactory model for the S-Boats you will absolutely have my permission to use it in FOTRSU.

[YellowFin]

Comparison of values across different mods an real values (from several sites on the internet)

https://ibb.co/S600Hrc

[Fifi]

Keep in mind sometimes you can’t just give the « official » value found on any site...
For instance, i gave the real exact drough number value (found on UBoat.net) to my IX D2, and ingame it was not good :yep:

So we always have to find compromise...and adapt.

[YellowFin]

Keep in mind sometimes you can’t just give the « official » value found on any site...
For instance, i gave the real exact drough number value (found on UBoat.net) to my IX D2, and ingame it was not good :yep:

So we always have to find compromise...and adapt.

Very true. However, the researched values as per my table are corroborated from several reasonably reliable sources (naval history sites, US navy history sites, original documents, etc.). They are also in agreement with reported distances, speeds and travel times from war reports. I believe these values to be accurate.

My main concern are now the following:


How does the game model recharging
How is rpm related to the other values or is it just cosmetic for accurate propeller speeds
How is engine power related to the other values
Are there any other files that govern ranges, speeds and consumption of fuel or battery capacity respectively


If I change my min mod, do I need to start a new game or will a save game iaccept the changed values of NSS_18.sim?

I put the researched values into the .sim file and I will now test these, to see if the boat behaves realistically.

[Fifi]

If I change my min mod, do I need to start a new game or will a save game iaccept the changed values of NSS_18.sim?
.

I think it will accept the new value.
But best is start new career, we never know a future issue...

[YellowFin]

I think it accepts the changed values.

I traveled submerged at 2 kts for 12.5 hrs and the Battery went from 51 to 46. That's much less battery capacity drainage than stock/FOTRSU/Webster. However, I would have expected it to go down further. At 2.5 kts the endurance of a full battery is said to have been 36 hrs in reality. I would have expected it to go down to about 20, rather than just 46. So it seems that there is a behind-the-scene conversion going on.

[Webster]

Is Webster still active? Maybe he could chime in with his understanding of how the game models charging / fuel consumption and efficiency decreases at non-optimal speeds.

Any pointers to real-life


ranges
charging times
and consumption of fuel or battery capacity at various speeds


are also welcome.

no im not around much but i try to pop in now and then when i can but it can be weeks or months sometimes before i do.

as for your question, well now thats the can of worms i ran into with them, i literally surrendered after fighting it modding and testing for weeks and had to settle for the changes i got which were at least better then nothing and had them no longer acting as super boats

the s-boat game files are so utterly fubar that my mod was the best i could do and its not even half way to where it should be

if the fuel range and battery charge ranges are changed any more then i did then i found it would default to super subs that never run out of fuel or batteries and damage was equally as much a struggle

i think it would be easier to start over and draw up brand new files for the s-boats because the ones in the game, in my opinion, are unfixable and impossible to even find what values they use since the ones in the s-boats files certainly get little or no results to changes you make.

its been so long i cant even remember but you should be able to add my mod without it having any affect on the sound at all, my mod only changes the s-boat file folders

worst case open my mod and see what values i used for the s-boat and then copy the s-boat files from FOTRS to your desktop to mod them and then change those s-boat files to match the ones in my mod and then you have made it FOTRS compatible

you can read more about it then i can even remember about it here https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=157608

[YellowFin]

no im not around much but i try to pop in now and then when i can but it can be weeks or months sometimes before i do.

as for your question, well now thats the can of worms i ran into with them, i literally surrendered after fighting it modding and testing for weeks and had to settle for the changes i got which were at least better then nothing and had them no longer acting as super boats

the s-boat game files are so utterly fubar that my mod was the best i could do and its not even half way to where it should be

if the fuel range and battery charge ranges are changed any more then i did then i found it would default to super subs that never run out of fuel or batteries and damage was equally as much a struggle

i think it would be easier to start over and draw up brand new files for the s-boats because the ones in the game, in my opinion, are unfixable and impossible to even find what values they use since the ones in the s-boats files certainly get little or no results to changes you make.

its been so long i cant even remember but you should be able to add my mod without it having any affect on the sound at all, my mod only changes the s-boat file folders

worst case open my mod and see what values i used for the s-boat and then copy the s-boat files from FOTRS to your desktop to mod them and then change those s-boat files to match the ones in my mod and then you have made it FOTRS compatible

you can read more about it then i can even remember about it here https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=157608

Thank you, you're being very helpful. I did indeed inspect your mod using S3ditor and I compared your file against stock, FOTRSU and what I researched.

Optimistically I went and plugged in historical data and of course was deeply disappointed. I then went and used your settings and tested and found the problems you mentioned, but I was also unable to obtain better results by tweaking your settings.

Here are things that I did find:


S-Boats deplete their battery submerged at 2kts at 4% per hour
Recharge is independent of the speed or telegraph setting at a decreasing rate, starting at 13% per hour at below 10% and coming down to 5% per hour at 95%


Your suggestion to start out from scratch has a lot of merit. Maybe you can help me understand a few things:


Is NSS_18.sim the only file that governs the boat's properties pertaining to battery, speed, battery capacity drainage and recharge, fuel consumption and range?
Do you agree that somewhere are linear and non-linear, presumably quadratic functions, coded that govern efficiencies for fuel, recharging and decharging at different speeds / telegraph settings?
Do you have any idea what these functions might roughly look like?
Your values for "Submerged" are very different from any other mod / stock / reality, but seem to be necessary, at least in combination with the other values, to obtain a somewhat realistic boat. How would you explain that?
Which parameter governs recharge speed?
Which parameter governs battery capacity?
Is battery capacity = submerged range and knots then governs the drainage at a certain speed?
Are the mechanics for surfaced travel the same?
What does eng_power and eng_rpm do in your estimation?

[Sniper297]

About 5 years ago when I gave up on this;

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=211380

Answer to the Whiskey Tango Foxtrot questions is complicated and involves some speculation.

1. Silent Hunter 3 programmers quit.
2. Silent Hunter 4 programmers used SH3 as a base for SH4, with no clue which file did what, which is why half the program is unused and partially used files. One example is the speeds and depths in the .sim and .cfg files for the subs, actual max speeds and max depth in the .sim file is used, numbers for those in the .cfg file are ignored. Percentage of speed in the .cfg file, along with periscope depth and others are used. "crash depth" in the .sim file actually means CRUSH depth, crash depth in the .cfg is the depth the sub will level off when crash dive is ordered. "max" depth in the .cfg file sets the depth of the red needle on the deep depth gauge, has no effect on the actual max depth.
3. Silent3ditor was programmed by a guy (skwas) who didn't work for Ubisoft, and some of his notes were guesses. For the ranges, he's right about surfaced speed vs range, wrong about the submerged speed/range. He's right more often than he's wrong, but taking his notes on what does what as gospel will sometimes lead you astray. When all else fails, we experiment.

After reading this I spent a few hours fiddling with the S-18 (normally I'm a Sargo driver), latest is;

Submerged
Miles=22
Knots=5

With that I get about 60 miles at 2 knots down to 10% battery, with an 8 1/2 hour recharge time. That's with stock settings on the diesel engines power, I found that tinkering with the horsepower reduces recharge time, but also turns the sub into a dragster with ridiculous acceleration.

In short, the S class was an afterthought and uses different a physics model than the fleet boats, so we're still tinkering with how it works. Nobody knows for sure.

[Webster]

I then went and used your settings and tested and found the problems you mentioned, but I was also unable to obtain better results by tweaking your settings.


i spent nearly a month devoting an hour or two a day testing and retesting but the stock s-boat files are near impossible to mod

i completely gave up and just decided to take the best possible results i could get and i think my mod is about as good as you can get with the s-boat files.

thats why i think the only possible solution to get files that respond to the settings you choose is to take an existing sub that is the "least broken" and convert it into a brand new s-boat file for the game, short of that i see no solution which is why i just gave up and settled for what i had.

as you mod the game you will find many other files in this game are just as frustrating and near impossible to mod

[Skipper44]

I'm happy to see some S Boat love.

I've enjoyed it more in FOTRSU more than TMO or RFB and infinitely more than stock.

If this thread sparks some attention to the S Class for the next update to FOTRSU I'm happy. :Kaleun_Cheers:

[YellowFin]

I haven't given up yet. I'm just involved in too many projects. I want to thank the previous two posters suggesting a complete rewrite of the s-boat .sim files from scratch.

That's something I want to try. I'm also trying to find out more about the executable and whether something can be done through binary patching that exe.

[Webster]

I haven't given up yet. I'm just involved in too many projects. I want to thank the previous two posters suggesting a complete rewrite of the s-boat .sim files from scratch.

That's something I want to try. I'm also trying to find out more about the executable and whether something can be done through binary patching that exe.

i think its more then that, i could be wrong but i think the actual file itself might be broken at its core so it may need something like taking a normal fleetboat sub file that isnt broken and then completely rewrite it to become a replacement for the s-boat file.

its definitely a huge undertaking to fix because the fix requires creating something completely new and discard the garbage file thats there

i think they threw the s-boats in the game and just did enough to make them function without fully integrating them into the games core elements control functions for how they act.

as is stock s-boats are nearly indestructible hulls and the battery life and fuel ranges are no where near reality in the least. you can even ram DD with them to sink the DD and only take minor damage

[YellowFin]

i think its more then that, i could be wrong but i think the actual file itself might be broken at its core

Is there a simple check I can do to verify or disprove that suspicion?

[propbeanie]

No "simple" anything in the game. There is minimal error-checking of one part against another anywhere in the game. The game's engine is actually rather robust in all of the abuse that gets thrown at it, with data out-of-bounds, bad save folders, etc... Currently, the only way to check something is to put it in the game and see what it does. No CTD? step one is completed... :arrgh!: :salute:

[Hitman]

Interesting read :up:

I think it's anyway fair to say that even if 96 miles submerged range at 2 knots was the accepted figure, by 1942 most of those boats were quite tired and dire need of updating, above all the manila based ones. So seeing the range drop to nearly 50% would not seem so crazy.

Of course if you can fix that it would be great, but hey, at least there is some consolation in thinking that it could have a "realism" explanation :Kaleun_Cheers: