Wolfpack SOPs - Who’s In?

[derstosstrupp]

Wanted to start a thread to gauge interest in some ideas I’ve been kicking around regarding crewmember roles and streamlining. The games I have participated in have been very productive and of course fun, but one thing I have noticed is the lack of definite clarity at the start as to who will do what.

Also, as you all may have heard, Wolfpack League is getting stood up (hopefully soon!), which will be a platform allowing crews to schedule times to play and post results and have a little friendly competition. So that being said, I thought to myself:

1. Wouldn’t it be cool if we could form regular crews, rotating the positions each play time to keep it interesting and drilling together as a crew on diving, surfacing, attacks etc, just like a unit would in real life (trying to improve dive times, honing attack procedures etc)?

2. Wouldn’t it be great to have a system in place where each man knows his role and executes it like clockwork?

3. Wouldn’t it really be cool if this system were based on real-world doctrine (tailored of course to Wolfpack)?

I arrived on the idea based on Neal’s very helpful posts in the thread “Wolfpack Tactics & Tips” (which is how I learned the game!). So I scoured the U-boat Diving Regulations over at uboatarchive.net, and fleshed out a system building on Neal’s that I would love to try out with a dedicated crew.

Of course, something like this requires rehearsal in order to be viable, and so real interest and a dedicated crew are a must, but since many have expressed a desire for “mini-games” within Wolfpack for any downtime, this may scratch that itch and provide more richness to an already-rich game. Any and all input is welcome and is my intent with this thread. More to follow in coming posts.

[blackswan40]

Time Served WPL old salt SH3 Battle M/P reporter nice to see the WPL Live again.
Ive just bought the game today id be happy on any station but still learning
how to control and operate all the different stations.
would be good for me to touch base with seasoned Wolfpack veteran to show me the ropes so to speak its a team game this Wolfpack.

regards blackswan40

[derstosstrupp]

Abbreviations used in coming posts:

C – Commander
N - Navigator
D – Dive Officer
R – Radioman
H – Helmsman

At any one time, there is always one man in the tower on the surface (either the Navigator or the Helmsman). This man will always be the one to man the aft vents on the dive order. The dive procedures that follow assume the Navigator is in the tower, but it could just as well be the Helmsman in the case of a night attack. In that case, Navigator and Helmsman roles are temporarily reversed for the dive, as then Helmsman would go to Echolot and aft vents instead. I have included them in parentheses for the procedures where this would be reversed. Only real thing to remember is – the man in the tower will jump down on the aft vents!

[derstosstrupp]

Test (Routine) Dive
C – “Prepare to dive” – Navigator(/Helmsman) immediately slides down ladder from tower, goes to Echolot for quick sounding then to aft ballast vents. Bridgewatch goes below in following order: Radioman (to negative controls), Helmsman(/Navigator) (to rudder station in control room), Commander last and closes hatch.

D – Switches to electrics, then Great Ahead, mans fwd ballast vents, reports “Forward vents ready”.

N(/H) – Reports depth under keel, then at aft vents: “aft vents ready, all vents ready”. Marks current position on map.

C – Shuts tower hatch, orders “Flood!”

D – Opens fwd ballast vents, reports “Forward open”. Sets fwd planes hard down, aft down 5.

N(/H) – After about 5 seconds, opens aft ballast vents, reports “Aft open, vents are open”.

Note: At this point, if Helmsman manned aft vents and Navigator the helm, they switch out to their usual roles.

At 8-15 meters depth:
D – Orders “Blow negative”.

R – Blows negative, reports when done “Negative blown”. Mans hydrophone.

C – Orders “Go to x meters”.

D – Reports depth in 10-meter increments, having established a down angle of 5-8 deg. Levels off 2-5 meters below ordered depth, sets planes fwd up 10, aft up 15 and approaches ordered depth from below.

At desired depth:
D - Reports “Boat is balanced”.

C – Orders “Close vents”.

H – Closes fwd vents, reports “Forward closed”.

N – Closes aft vents, reports “Aft closed, all vents closed”, inspects for leaks, reports “No leaks in the boat”, reports compressed air level.

C – Orders course and speed (usually slow ahead, half ahead for any depth changes)

H – Reports battery level.

R – Reports sound contacts.

[derstosstrupp]

Crash Dive
C – “Alarm!”
D – Sounds alarm bell.

Remaining procedures same as test dive except as follows:
1. Diving officer sets Full Ahead instead of Great Ahead at outset.
2. Diving officer establishes initial down angle of 8-15 deg, and once past 20 meters, increases
down angle to 15-30 deg to “drive” the boat to depth at Full Ahead.
3. Commander may want a 90-deg course change once below 20 m, in which case the helmsman will initiate this on his command (or automatically if desired by commander).

Depth Changes
1. Normally done at Half Ahead (Great Ahead if emergency). Diving officer reports “Boat rising/falling/steady” according to situation.
2. If coming up from depth, perform a sound check at 20 meters, then a scope check at periscope depth prior to surfacing.

[derstosstrupp]

Surfacing (from Periscope Depth)

C – Orders “Prepare to surface” (Helmsman to tower rudder station, Commander makes ready to climb ladder followed by Navigator, Radioman to negative tank controls, Diving Officer at diving station)

N – Reports “Bridge watch ready”.

C – Orders “Both Great Ahead” and “Surface!”

D – Sets fwd planes hard up, aft up 5 deg. When boat rises, reports “Boat rising” and orders “Flood negative”. Reports depth change: “14….13….12….”

R – Floods negative tank, makes ready to blow ballast.

C – Orders “Blow” and climbs ladder to hatch.

N – Follows commander up ladder, notes current position on chart.

R – Blows ballast, awaits order from commander to stop blowing, verifies negative flood valve shut.

D – Reports “Hatch coming free” when at 7.5 meters.

C – Climbs topside, orders “Switch to diesels”. (Just commander goes topside in case need to dive again quickly)

H – In tower, switches to diesels and back to Great Ahead.

D – Reports “boat is out” when fully surfaced.

C – Orders “stop blowing” and quickly scans horizon to ensure all clear.

R – Stops blowing ballast, stands by. (This ensures that if not all clear, boat can get back down in a hurry)

C – If all clear, orders “Blow with diesel”. (This is a historical procedure not replicated in the game, but in WP it can serve as a signal to the radioman to finish blowing as well as a reminder to start the diesel if not yet started)

N and H – Navigator remains in tower, Helmsman climbs topside, mans rudder on bridge.

R – Finishes blowing ballast, reports “All have blown” when done.

D – Asks Commander if bilge may be pumped. Starts compressor and, if ordered, bilge pump.

C – “Secure from diving stations” (All are already in correct positions except Radioman who returns to post on bridge), orders course and speed as desired.

D – Unless told by commander otherwise, sets telegraph to charge batteries.

D – Monitors compressed air level and stops compressor when done.

[derstosstrupp]

Stations

Stations While Surfaced (In Sight of Enemy):
C – Bridge (Watch) – full situational awareness up here. His station is at the front starboard corner of the bridge (by the RDF), covering the horizon from 0 deg to 90 deg. He also uses UZO to relay bearings to the navigator.
N – Tower (Plot) – Since his function is plotting at this stage, and he can read off exact bearing from the TDC, it makes sense for him to be down here collecting bearings for his plot (and getting rough ranges and AOB estimates from the commander on the bridge).
D – Control Room – Ready at the dive station.
R – Bridge (Stern Watch) – The receipt of radio messages is audible throughout the boat, and so he does not need to be in the radio shack on the surface (unless so desired if operating in a wolfpack where frequent important communication is expected). His station is near the tower hatch covering the stern horizon from 90 deg to 270 deg.
H – Bridge (Watch, Rudder) – Since there is a rudder station with compass on the bridge, he can steer from here and be a set of eyes too when no rudder orders are given, but he needs to keep an eye on the compass now and again to maintain course. His post is at the helm station and he covers the horizon from 270 deg to 0 deg.

Surface Battle Stations (When Carrying Out the Attack):
C – Bridge – full situational awareness to direct the attack.
N – Bridge/Deck Gun – At commander’s option, he could serve historical role of 1WO and conduct the attack on the UZO, directed by the commander (probably preferable for same reasons as real life – commander can focus on other sectors etc).
D – Control Room – Ready at the dive station.
R – Bridge – Same station but covering horizon away from the attack.
H – Tower – Manning TDC and, since right behind him, also the rudder when course changes are needed. Since most course changes ordered during the attack are rudder commands, he doesn’t need a compass. He can also assist with rangefinding at the attack scope.

At any one time, there is always one man in the tower on the surface (either the Navigator or the Helmsman). This man will always be the one to man the aft vents on the dive order. The dive procedures that follow assume the Navigator is in the tower, but it could just as well be the Helmsman in the case of a night attack. In that case, Navigator and Helmsman roles are temporarily reversed for the dive, as then Helmsman would go to Echolot and aft vents instead. I have included them in parentheses for the procedures where this would be reversed. Only real thing to remember is – the man in the tower will jump down on the aft vents!

Stations While Submerged:
C – Control Room – best situational awareness here.
N – Control Room – ready to perform duties as required, also plotting underwater movement.
D – Control Room – at planes maintaining depth.
R – Hydrophone – searching for contacts.
H – Control Room – at the rudder station.

Underwater Battle Stations:
C – Tower/Control Room – attack scope/obs scope
N – Tower – TDC and assisting with range tables, attack disc etc.
D - Control Room – at planes maintaining depth.
R – Hydrophone – searching for contacts.
H - Control Room – at rudder station.

[derstosstrupp]

Time Served WPL old salt SH3 Battle M/P reporter nice to see the WPL Live again.
Ive just bought the game today id be happy on any station but still learning
how to control and operate all the different stations.
would be good for me to touch base with seasoned Wolfpack veteran to show me the ropes so to speak its a team game this Wolfpack.

regards blackswan40

See you this Friday blackswan!

[Pisces]

I like your suggestions. However a few I think differently about.

Test (Routine) Dive
...
D – Switches to electric motors, great speed ahead, mans aft ballast vents, reports “aft vents ready, all vents ready”.

N – Marks current position on chart, gets depth under keel (reports), mans negative tank controls.

C – Shuts tower hatch, orders “Flood!”

R – Opens fwd ballast vents, reports “Forward open”. Mans diving station and sets fwd planes hard down, aft down 10, then mans hydrophone.

D – After about 5 seconds, opens aft ballast vents, reports “Aft open, vents are open”. Mans diving station.D moves back to aft ballast vent, N to Negative valve, R to dive station. Seems like they all run crossing through eachother's path. Why not have D stay at diving station and negative, R only fwd ballast vents. And N to aft ballast vents. And their movement is as little as possible obstructed by the ladder/conningtower-base. I often got stuck or slowed my movement down.

Also, I would think that for each situation each crews movement should be the same as much as possible. So it becomes an automated reaction. Not in this situation to forward ballast vents, another to negative valves, then another situation to aft ballast vents. I can see that you gave it enough thought. But its a bit disorganized for my liking.


At 8-15 meters depth:
...
D – Reports depth in 10-meter increments, having established a down angle of 5-8 deg. Levels off 2-5 meters below ordered depth, sets planes fwd up 10, aft up 15 and approaches ordered depth from below.Approaching from below, wasn't that only with a quick shallow dive? No need to come up from below at deep depths. As far as I can remember from the document. Unless real submariners have a different view.


Stations

Stations While Surfaced:

H – Bridge (Watch, Rudder) – since there is a rudder station with compass on the bridge, and the game does not require the helmsman to concentrate on holding course, he can be a set of eyes too when no rudder orders are given, concentrating on the forward sector.I have different experiences with unmanned rudder on the surface. After I turned and left the rudder amidship on a specific heading I still noticed the boat slowly turned a few degrees or so. It interfered a bit with my plotting. That is to say, I had to correct with my attackdisk too much for my liking. This was at max speed iirc. I'm sure that would not make the Navigator happy when this happens. Also when I move around a convoy I often do so with a special kind of intercept drawing and as such a specific course to get my relative motion pointed correctly w.r.t. a convoy member. With this sim I would really like to have a helmsman that stays awake on the job. (As opposed to SH3)

[derstosstrupp]

I like your suggestions. However a few I think differently about.

Thanks for taking the time to read through and commenting, Pisces, I appreciate the input and have always appreciated your posts. I hope you do join us on Friday!

D moves back to aft ballast vent, N to Negative valve, R to dive station. Seems like they all run crossing through eachother's path. Why not have D stay at diving station and negative, R only fwd ballast vents. And N to aft ballast vents. And their movement is as little as possible obstructed by the ladder/conningtower-base. I often got stuck or slowed my movement down.

My intent with having R and D on the vents is that they are already below. Having N go on vents I think may be too late - by the time flooding starts, his feet are probably just then hitting the control room floor from the bridge, it should happen that quickly. D can scoot on the starboard side of the attack scope well to get aft to the vents so as to not interfere with those coming below. R won't get in anyone's way since he just pops to the fwd ballast and then quickly sets planes and is out of the control room by the time D is back to diving station (D has already moved aft). If enough interest is shown for something like this, I intend to sketch out a schematic of how this all would look.

Also, I would think that for each situation each crews movement should be the same as much as possible. So it becomes an automated reaction. Not in this situation to forward ballast vents, another to negative valves, then another situation to aft ballast vents. I can see that you gave it enough thought. But its a bit disorganized for my liking.

This is a very valid point, I may need to look closely at that aspect. My thought process was strictly speed - who is where at what time and can do a transitional task while others are elsewhere, until the dust settles and each mans his true station.

Approaching from below, wasn't that only with a quick shallow dive? No need to come up from below at deep depths. As far as I can remember from the document. Unless real submariners have a different view.

Could very well be the case. This was the so-called "Durchpendeln", the reason for which was to tilt the boat a few degrees up and down in order to force air bubbles out of the ballast tanks that could cause problems with depth control (and make noise). Obviously not modeled in-game (but oh if it were..), but the practice does allow for a bit more leniency on the planes I feel since D doesn’t necessarily have to concentrate on “nailing” the depth on the way down.. Now as to whether this was done at all depths, that I would have to look into. Good point!


I have different experiences with unmanned rudder on the surface. After I turned and left the rudder amidship on a specific heading I still noticed the boat slowly turned a few degrees or so. It interfered a bit with my plotting. That is to say, I had to correct with my attackdisk too much for my liking. This was at max speed iirc. I'm sure that would not make the Navigator happy when this happens. Also when I move around a convoy I often do so with a special kind of intercept drawing and as such a specific course to get my relative motion pointed correctly w.r.t. a convoy member. With this sim I would really like to have a helmsman that stays awake on the job. (As opposed to SH3)

Very interesting, I never must've paid close enough attention - thanks for pointing that out. May need to rethink then (and I've edited OP), but then again the helmsman could throw a glance now an again down at the compass between scans of the horizon. I think the extra set of eyes on the bridge would still be an asset. Never will forget the sleepy helmsman of SH3. I tried the "real nav" trick for a while of hiding own sub and ctrl+clicking to get a "fix" a couple times a day, but then doing the helmsman's job for him was tiresome!

Again, appreciate the comments and I have modified OPs as a result.

[Captain_AJ]

Wanted to start a thread to gauge interest in some ideas I’ve been kicking around regarding crewmember roles and streamlining. The games I have participated in have been very productive and of course fun, but one thing I have noticed is the lack of definite clarity at the start as to who will do what.

Also, as you all may have heard, Wolfpack League is getting stood up (hopefully soon!), which will be a platform allowing crews to schedule times to play and post results and have a little friendly competition. So that being said, I thought to myself:

1. Wouldn’t it be cool if we could form regular crews, rotating the positions each play time to keep it interesting and drilling together as a crew on diving, surfacing, attacks etc, just like a unit would in real life (trying to improve dive times, honing attack procedures etc)?

2. Wouldn’t it be great to have a system in place where each man knows his role and executes it like clockwork?

3. Wouldn’t it really be cool if this system were based on real-world doctrine (tailored of course to Wolfpack)?

I arrived on the idea based on Neal’s very helpful posts in the thread “Wolfpack Tactics & Tips” (which is how I learned the game!). So I scoured the U-boat Diving Regulations over at uboatarchive.net, and fleshed out a system building on Neal’s that I would love to try out with a dedicated crew.

Of course, something like this requires rehearsal in order to be viable, and so real interest and a dedicated crew are a must, but since many have expressed a desire for “mini-games” within Wolfpack for any downtime, this may scratch that itch and provide more richness to an already-rich game. Any and all input is welcome and is my intent with this thread. More to follow in coming posts.


I'll be joining this crew as your radioman ON FRIDAY Captian Lt:) , oR AS YOU MARINES SAY... L... T!!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Captain_AJ]

Surfacing (from Periscope Depth)
C – Orders “Prepare to surface” (Helmsman to tower rudder station, Commander makes ready to climb ladder followed by Navigator, Radioman to negative tank controls, Diving Officer at diving station)

N – Reports “Bridge watch ready”.

C – Orders “Both Great Ahead” and “Surface!”

D – Sets fwd planes hard up, aft up 5-10 deg. When boat rises, reports “Boat rising” and orders “Flood negative”. Reports depth change: “14....13....12....”

R – Floods negative tank, makes ready to blow ballast.

C – Orders “Blow” and climbs ladder to hatch.

N – Follows commander up ladder, notes current position on chart.

R – Blows ballast, awaits order from commander to stop blowing, verifies negative flood valve shut.

D – Reports “Hatch coming free” when at 8 (?) meters.

C – Climbs topside, orders “Switch to diesels”. (Just commander goes topside in case need to dive again quickly)

H – In tower, switches to diesels and back to Great Ahead.

D – Reports “boat is out” when fully surfaced.

C – Orders “stop blowing” and quickly scans horizon to ensure all clear.

R – Stops blowing ballast, stands by. (This ensures that if not all clear, boat can get back down in a hurry)

C – If all clear, orders “Blow with diesel”. (This is a historical procedure not replicated in the game, but in WP it can serve as a signal to the radioman to finish blowing as well as a reminder to start the diesel if not yet started)

N and H – Climb topside, Helmsman to rudder on bridge.

R – Finishes blowing ballast, reports “All have blown” when done.

D – Asks Commander if bilge may be pumped.

R – Starts compressor and pumps bilge if ordered by Diving Officer.

C – “Secure from diving stations” (All are already in correct positions except Radioman who returns to radio room), orders course and speed as desired.

H – Unless told by commander otherwise, sets telegraph to charge batteries.

D – Monitors compressed air level and stops compressor when done.

ILl Be there !!Friday !!

[derstosstrupp]

I'll be joining this crew as your radioman ON FRIDAY Captian Lt:) , oR AS YOU MARINES SAY... L... T!!:Kaleun_Salute:

Sounds great, might have to have you get me up to speed on the ins and outs of the radio shack!:yep:

[Elphaba]

I'm WAYYYYY in... how can I help?

[Elphaba]

Has anyone ever found and translated the SOP's from real Type VII's?

I can't believe after all these years and all the WW2 sub sim games and enthusiasts this hasn't come up before, but, it's true this is the first co-op WW2 sub game so maybe not.

Considering too, that usually everyone would be up on the bridge except the diving officer, so I would have thought that for the dive SOP, they would set the engines to battery and set speed, then go back and man the dive planes until the Captain yells "Flood" - at which point the Radio and Nav are down in the command room with Helm on the way and Captain closing the hatch, the Radio turns right and goes to man the aft vents and the Nav turns left and mans the forward vents and the Helms officer goes to their station.

Then when dive is underway, the aft (lets say Radio) goes to man the negative tank (never crosses anyones path) and the navigator (who manned the forward vents) goes to the chart to start the plot.

At that point the Helms officer can man the forward vents when they need to be closed, and the radio moves to cover aft and no-one crosses anyones path.

What do you think?

[derstosstrupp]

Has anyone ever found and translated the SOP's from real Type VII's?

I can't believe after all these years and all the WW2 sub sim games and enthusiasts this hasn't come up before, but, it's true this is the first co-op WW2 sub game so maybe not.

Considering too, that usually everyone would be up on the bridge except the diving officer, so I would have thought that for the dive SOP, they would set the engines to battery and set speed, then go back and man the dive planes until the Captain yells "Flood" - at which point the Radio and Nav are down in the command room with Helm on the way and Captain closing the hatch, the Radio turns right and goes to man the aft vents and the Nav turns left and mans the forward vents and the Helms officer goes to their station.

Then when dive is underway, the aft (lets say Radio) goes to man the negative tank (never crosses anyones path) and the navigator (who manned the forward vents) goes to the chart to start the plot.

At that point the Helms officer can man the forward vents when they need to be closed, and the radio moves to cover aft and no-one crosses anyones path.

What do you think?

I’m glad to see someone actively interested in this - you and I are of a mind I think with our approach to this game!

I based my SOPs on the KM diving regs for U-boats (at uboatarchive.net) but tailored to the “crew” in WP. We don’t have a Zentralemaat (control room petty officer) as in RL to do the control room work.

One thing to note is Radio would need to be at his post in the radio shack while on the surface. This puts him close to the fwd MBT vent and the planes to quickly open vents and set planes for dive then get back to hydro to get that prepared and get out of the way.

Diving officer mans aft MBT so he can report to Commander that both are open. I have Helm hanging back in the tower so as to keep out of the way in Control room until the dust settles.

Diving officer uses the gap starboard of the scope well going aft to stay out of Nav’s way and comes back port of the well to again avoid Nav who is by then at negative. He should already be aft by the time Nav gets to negative. After Nav blows negative Nav moves aft to MBT in the starboard gap as well.

All should be clear of one another but we really need a group to try and refine these ideas in practice.:yep:

So who else is in?

[Elphaba]

Hmmm, I'll think more about what you've just written, but re: Radio Officer.

Everyone hears the morse saying a message is coming in, and unless you're in a Wolfpack (at the moment of course) then waiting for a radio message to come in that may never come is boring for the poor guy - so better to have their eyes up top looking for contacts.

Maybe when the DF and aircraft come in, then there's more of a need for keeping them downstairs...

Mmmm lots to consider... I LOVE that!

[Elphaba]

I tried setting up a group this evening to practice drills and SOP's but I couldn't get more than 3.

Maybe we can try and plan and schedule an hour to so to try all this out?

[derstosstrupp]

Hmmm, I'll think more about what you've just written, but re: Radio Officer.

Everyone here's the morse saying a message is coming in, and unless you're in a Wolfpack (at the moment of course) then waiting for a radio message to come in that may never come is boring for the poor guy - so better to have their eyes up top looking for contacts.

Maybe when the DF and aircraft come in, then there's more of a need for keeping them downstairs...

Mmmm lots to consider... I LOVE that!

Thanks for pointing that out about messages, didn’t realize that Radio didn’t need to be down there! That changes things so I need to revisit our ideas in that light later tonight. Some edits to OP to come.....

[derstosstrupp]

Considering too, that usually everyone would be up on the bridge except the diving officer, so I would have thought that for the dive SOP, they would set the engines to battery and set speed, then go back and man the dive planes until the Captain yells "Flood" - at which point the Radio and Nav are down in the command room with Helm on the way and Captain closing the hatch, the Radio turns right and goes to man the aft vents and the Nav turns left and mans the forward vents and the Helms officer goes to their station.

My concern when I originally wrote it was that the bridge crew wouldn’t be down in time for the flood order, but now I’m wondering if that truly is the case. So I wanted two Crewmembers below to start with, but with the slide down the ladder feature to the control room, that might just work to just keep the diving officer below. In which case I’d have radio go to the forward vents since he has to go forward anyway and Nav to the aft vents then to negative (moving starboard of scope well). He would have to take his depth sounding after flooding though, but at this point shallow depth isn’t much of a concern.

[Onkel Neal]

Has anyone ever found and translated the SOP's from real Type VII's?




That's where the SOP I posted came from: uboatarchive.net

I just modified them for the game.

----------------------------------------

Been thinking about communicating with other U-boats in a game, via the wireless, and some way to send position info.


Proposed: Zoom in until the grid square your boat is in fills most of the map.

Then measure from the left side, and then from the bottom. Round up to the nearest hectometer, then combine with the grid square using an x to separate.

In this case, we're in grid AF 5149, 8321m from the left, 2295m from the bottom. Round up/down, this would be the message:

POSxAF5149x83x23

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1203&pictureid=10289

[Elphaba]

NICE! :Kaleun_Salute:

Great idea.

I've joined a discord group that's also setting up SOP's and one set is the radio comms.

This is much better than I've seen anywhere else. Only problem is we can't send numbers.

The other group suggested just using the first two letters of each number i.e.
1 = on
2 = tw

etc

My only suggestion is that we should also add course and speed on too.

So in your example given course of 310 and speed 18

POSxAFxFIONFONIXEITHXTWTHXTHONZEXONEIZE

Unless of course, numbers are being added as recognised characters and then all is good. :)

[derstosstrupp]

That is a great idea Neal. This kind of brainstorming I feel really makes the game rich. I need to get more familiar with the radio. I’m hoping in upcoming sessions we get enough to man a couple boats again so we can refine this aspect too.

[xXLupusXx]

Yes, I am in provided you guys are in my time-zone.


Be aware, I only bought the game yesterday and getting to grips with it now.


:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, forgot to mention, the new patch will add numbers to the wireless.:Kaleun_Wink:

[Pisces]

I like Neal's coordinate system. On the Wolfpack discord some suggested angles from the 2 bottom edge corners. And then use a digit-to-letter key tot translate the angles for enigma encryption and short message. But this should be a bit shorter. Especially since number-morse is (becoming) a thing.

One could just further subdivide the KM grids, but that doesn't converge fast enough to pin-point location.

@Stosstrupp: You have a point about time if crew was manning the deckgun. They need to 'secure' it first. Rotating it to bow and running back up the bridge takes a while.

I like to keep the radioman at the forward vent, instead of the aft. Going through the hatch takes a bit of time. While the navigator could go to the aft in the same time. And punch the Atlas-Echolot on the way (back).

[derstosstrupp]

I edited the SOPs based on helpful suggestions (thanks Elphaba!).

Primarily, I’ve got Radio on the bridge now with just Diving Officer below. Radio and Nav are to man the flood vents. This is predicated on the assumption that Radio and Nav can get down to the vents in time for the flood order. I think they can with the “slide down the ladder” trick but it would need testing. To the regulars (or irregulars) who play with me - all we need is 4 to test this assumption.

I also added suggestions for sectors for the bridge watch, in such a way that would facilitate Radio and Nav getting through the hatch first followed by Helm then the Commander.

As always please let me know thoughts and who would like to devote a session or two to test out. I will then post a session in the WP League just for this.

[Elphaba]

I’d like to sail with you if you’ll have me. Steam: Captain Summers

[sckallst]

On the subject of SoPs and best practices, it seems very few captains that I've been watching on live streams have any conception of periscope discipline. All the actual manuals from the era repeatedly stress the shortest possible exposures, at low speed, to collect the data you need calcuate/check/update a solution.

I get it, because it's fun to see what the heck is going on, but it's a product of the fact that nobody is actually going to die if your scope gets spotted.

[derstosstrupp]

On the subject of SoPs and best practices, it seems very few captains that I've been watching on live streams have any conception of periscope discipline. All the actual manuals from the era repeatedly stress the shortest possible exposures, at low speed, to collect the data you need calcuate/check/update a solution.

I get it, because it's fun to see what the heck is going on, but it's a product of the fact that nobody is actually going to die if your scope gets spotted.

You are right - with the fixed-eye attack scope the skipper could keep the scope head right at the waterline at all times constantly moving it, which was probably the #1 advantage of that scope (along with the binocular view of course).

Side note - apparently the range estimation advantage of having binocular optics in there outweighed the disadvantage of having to sacrifice stadimeter/RAOBF to install it! Too bad we are looking through a “monocular” computer monitor!

[Captain_AJ]

I tried setting up a group this evening to practice drills and SOP's but I couldn't get more than 3.

Maybe we can try and plan and schedule an hour to so to try all this out?
id like to be on this as well

[derstosstrupp]

Session is posted for trying out SOPs!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=240746

[jarlemag]

Many good suggestions here.


In addition to standard procedures for diving, etc. I'd like to encourage the use of standardized verbal communication procedures, and maintaining "radio" (voice) dicipline when appropriate.

For inspiration, an american handbook on Standard Submarine Phraseology can be found here: https://maritime.org/doc/subphrase/index.htm


I'll quote the beginning of the handbook, which describes the basic concepts:


VOICE PROCEDURES

1. Components of a message

The typical message on a submarine consists of call and text. The call is the name of the station being addressed. The text is the body of the message. For example:

After room, open the outer doors.
(call) (text)
In the rare cases when the source of a message is not obvious from the text, the identifying name of the sending station should be inserted following the call. For example: "Control, forward room, we heard a bumping noise along the hull."

The call is normally used because it serves the double purpose of alerting the correct listener and of helping to define the contents of the message. It should be omitted only when speed is essential and when the text of the message clearly indicates to whom it is addressed. For example: Rig for depth charge.-

2. Acknowledgments

Every message is acknowledged, but the method of acknowledgment varies with the type of message, as follows:

(a) Orders

Orders addressed to an individual or to a single compartment are acknowledged by repeating them back word for word. This repetition serves as a check on the accuracy of the reception of the order, and passes the word for action to other men in the compartment.

(Order) Forward room, set depth one ze-ro feet.
(Acknowledgment) Forward room, set depth one ze-ro feet.
Orders addressed to all compartments are acknowledged from forward aft by giving the name of the compartment and adding "aye".

(Order) All compartments, secure from depth charge.
(Acknowledgment) Forward room, aye.
Battery forward, aye. Etc.

2

(b) Reports
When the correct reception of its details is important, the report is repeated back word for word.

(Report) JP, contact, bearing two one ze-ro.
(Acknowledgment) JP, contact, bearing two one ze-ro.
When a report of a routine nature is heard directly by the person to whom it is addressed, "Very well" or "Aye, aye" is usually sufficient acknowledgment.

(c) Questions

When a question can be answered immediately, the answer in itself constitutes an acknowledgement. The answer should be worded so that it is clear that the question has been understood.

(Question) Forward room, how are your bilges?
(Answer) Control, forward room bilges are dry.
When a question cannot be answered immediately, the immediate acknowledgment is normally a repetition of the question and the word, "Wait". For questions of a routine nature, "Aye, aye," plus "Wait" is usually sufficient acknowledgment. In either case, the answer is given as soon as the information becomes available.

(Question) Forward room, how are your bilges?
(Acknowledgment) Forward room, how are your bilges? Wait.
(Answer) Control, six inches of water in forward room bilges.

3. Correction or change in a message

If the sender makes a mistake in giving a message, he says "Belay that" and gives the correct form.

Gyros forward, set gyros by hand ze-ro ze-ro fo-wer. Belay that.
Set gyros by hand ze-ro fo-wer fo-wer.
If the receiving station repeats a message incorrectly, the sender says "Belay that" and gives the correct message again.


3

4. Reports of execution
When an order has been carried out, this fact is reported to the station originating the order. Generally, the report of execution closely follows the wording of the order.

(Order) After room, open the outer doors.
(Acknowledgment) After room, open the outer doors.
(Report) Conning tower, the outer doors have been opened aft.
Other common forms in reports of execution involve the phrases "has the word" and "on his way."

(Order) Tell Mr. R. to check the gun access hatch.
(Report) Mr. R. has the word.
(Order) Gunner's mate to the bridge.
(Report) The gunner's mate is on his way.
Certain special forms are given later in this manual.

5. Request for a repeat

If the receiver fails to understand any part of a message, he says "Repeat". The sender then gives the entire message again.

(Message) JP, pick up target bearing wuh wuh nay.
(Reply) Repeat.
(Message) JP, pick up target bearing one one eight.


There is much more, much of which is not (currently) relevant to the game. But if everyone uses the basic concepts, it make for much more orderly communication. It may not be so important when cruising, but when under attack or in the final stages of making an attack, efficient communication can be essential.

To summarize basic "standard" voice message procedure:


Basic message format: [person/station who is being addressed], [person/station who is talking]: [Message]
Orders are repeated by the addressed station (may be followed by "Aye", to indicate it is an order being received, not given.)
The station adressed reports when the order has been completed.
"Very well", or "Aye, aye" is used to confirm receipt of reports.


A couple of questions quickly come up on how to translate real world procedures to Wolfpack the game. Firstly, how should each person be addressed? There are five player slots in each submarine, each with the name of a particular role, but in practice these roles can be fluid, with different persons operating the various stations. To meet these challenges, I propose the following:


Each person is adressed by the name of their current station. Persons who have multiple roles, or switch roles, use the callsign of the station they are currently operating. For example, the person in the "Radio" slot (or anyone else operating that equipment) uses the callsign "Radio" when communicating about radio messages, and "Sonar" (shorter than "hydrophones") when communicating about use of the hydrophones.


A related issue is that there is often confusion about who is in command of the boat. It should always be clear who is in charge of giving orders for the boat's maneuvers. As this might not be the person nominally in the Captain slot, it's useful to be able to always address the person currently in command consistently. This person can be called the "conning officer", or "conn" for short. Ideally, the person in the Captain slot should be the actual captain, and only he should be addressed as captain. However, if he sees fit or needs to (going AFK or leaving the game, for example.) he can "give the conn" to someone else as follows:

Captain, or current conning officer: [station or name*], take the conn." or "[station or name], you may have the conn."
The designated conning officer confirms this with "I have the conn.". The Captain can take the conn back by saying, "This is the captain. I have the conn."

*Not sure what is best to use here.




The callsigns should be short and easy to say. With the above in mind, I propose the following callsigns:



Captain: "Conn" (unless the conn has been transferred to someone else, in case he should be adressed as "Captain".)

Navigator: "Navigation"

Helmsman: "Helm"

Radioman: "Radio"/"Sonar" (or "Hydro(phones)")

Dive officer: "Dive"



A few examples:

Ordering a course change:

Captain/conning officer: "Helm, conn. Make course 380 (three eight zero)."

Helmsman: "Conn, helm. Make course 380, aye".

...

Helmsman: "Conn, helm. Course is 380." or "Conn, helm. Steady course."

Captain/conning officer: "(Helm, conn.) Very well.", or "Aye, aye".


Ordering a depth change:

Captain/conning officer: "Dive, conn. Make depth 50 [fifty, or five zero] meters."

Dive officer: "Conn, dive. Make depth 50 meters, aye." or "Make depth 50 meters, dive aye."

...

Dive officer: "Conn, dive. Depth is 50 meters and holding."

Captain/conning officer: "Very well."


Passing the conn:

Captain: "Helm, take the conn."

Helm: "This is helm, I have the conn."

(From now, the helmsman uses the callsign "Conn.")

(The Conn could now order someone else to take up the Helm position, who would then use that callsign, and so on.)

[Pisces]

In fluid role situations, shouldn't taking the conn be addressed to and taken by the actual nickname of the person? Otherwise it seems to get confusing.

Also, what is wrong with "hydro" as shorthand for the hydrophone station? And it is a just as distinguishable from others. "Sonar" seems wrong for a sub that cannot actually send out ranging pulses of sound.

[jarlemag]

Agreed on the first point. Passing the conn/switching roles is one situation where using (nick)names may make most sense.

Re: Hydro/sonar, a few reasons:


The sub doesn't currently have active sonar, but some german submarines did have active sonar installed, and so this naming is "future proof" if that's introduced.

"Sonar" is a single word, while "hydro" is just part of a longer word, and "hydrophones" is rather long.

Last but not least, "rule of cool". "Sonar" just sounds cooler.:yeah:

[Pisces]

Yeah, no! The coolness factor does not apply to games that try to be authentic and realistic. Sonar is an abbreviation. And active sonar was not used on German boats until later in the war. And infrequent at that.

Let's just call it as it was meant to be.

[derstosstrupp]

Edited again - based on the fact that plotting targets on the surface requires a man on the TDC to read off bearing from the UZO, I've got Nav in the tower now. For his plot he has all the info he needs and the commander is feeding him the required info/bearings from the bridge, as IRL. This solves the issue of personnel not getting down to the vents in time too - Nav slides down on the dive order and is on aft vents right away, with Dive Officer manning forward.:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

Soon to follow in coming posts - 4-player and 3-player SOPs (to follow shortly).:Kaleun_Cheers:

I agree with you guys on a standardized verbiage also, that we can refine!

[jarlemag]

Aye, aye.

Continuing on that track, here are some "standard helm commands": http://www.boatswainsmate.net/BM/helmcmds.pdf

[Captain_AJ]

If we are doing this Friday, I can be there

[Onkel Neal]

I like this better, just divide the grid

|1|2|3|
|4|5|6|
|7|8|9|

That's close enough for wolfpack coordination.

[gumbeauregard]

I like this better, just divide the grid

|1|2|3|
|4|5|6|
|7|8|9|

That's close enough for wolfpack coordination.

In order to give everyone an easy reference I suggest using the Keypad. It is very similar to what you posted above with one important difference, the numbering starts at the bottom left of the square.

Use the keyboard 10-Key keypad as the reference for numbering the grid.

I used this system for many years in a WWII flying game and it works well.

We used to report position as follows in text:

POSIT<GRID>KP<#>

In your example, in the OP, the position is AF5149x83x23

Using the Keypad system POSIT/AF5149KP3

The keypad system can be used in a manner that becomes more precise if desired.

The Grid AF5149 is broken into nine squares
|7|8|9|
|4|5|6|
|1|2|3|

The boat is in the 3, actually it is in the top left corner of the three or in the 7 square of the 3 square. Break the three square into the same nine squares and the position report becomes

POSIT/AF5149KP37

Two digit keypad position should be all the precision ever needed.

[Pisces]

Sorry, but taking the grid reference order provided by the game as a base ( which was historically used) and then reversing the number order when the maps stops displaying it further than 4 levels is just plain silly. Common sense would be to continue the same order just to avoid confusion. Using the keypad ordering has little benefit over the existing order. I would say it is only because of muscle memory for those having a numerical key pad on their keyboards. That may be the majority of players but it is not a rule that everyone has one. Aside from that, those that are more used to telephone keypads follow the KM grid order anyway.

In discord a common counter argument is given that it doesn't matter, as long as it is agreed among players before the game starts. Well, that last part is true. Agreements made on deviations to conventions trumps always. (no politics in there ;) ) But that only works if you know who enters the game session. If you leave the lobby open for players unknown to you and they enter a different boat then you cannot be sure of their level of understanding. Following conventional grid numbering (as was historical and exampled in the game) is then the most simple and right course of action.

[gumbeauregard]

Sorry, but taking the grid reference order provided by the game as a base ( which was historically used) and then reversing the number order when the maps stops displaying it further than 4 levels is just plain silly. Common sense would be to continue the same order just to avoid confusion. Using the keypad ordering has little benefit over the existing order. I would say it is only because of muscle memory for those having a numerical key pad on their keyboards. That may be the majority of players but it is not a rule that everyone has one. Aside from that, those that are more used to telephone keypads follow the KM grid order anyway.

In discord a common counter argument is given that it doesn't matter, as long as it is agreed among players before the game starts. Well, that last part is true. Agreements made on deviations to conventions trumps always. (no politics in there ;) ) But that only works if you know who enters the game session. If you leave the lobby open for players unknown to you and they enter a different boat then you cannot be sure of their level of understanding. Following conventional grid numbering (as was historical and exampled in the game) is then the most simple and right course of action.

My suggestion was based upon my previous experience in another WWII map based game that also did not label the grids beyond a certain zoom level. it used the traditional top left corner starting point (telephone keypad style)

And EVERYONE found it much easier to use the 10-key pad visual reference versus the more traditional telephone style numbering because there was an easy visual reference sitting right in front of them at all times.

It was a flying game and the pace was, obviously, much faster than a submarine game so anything that saved a few seconds and a few brain cells was important.

It doesn't matter much to me what the SOP is eventually but I do know people make fewer mistakes when presented with easy to understand visual aids.

Long years of real world crew resource management training and practice taught me that.

[Onkel Neal]

Good point, if it works, use it.

[mobucks]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the guys I've been playing with radio us their position by stating " Grid x BL(angle) BR(angle)" of the current grid they're in.
Go to map, draw a line from the bottom left of the grid square at the given angle, do the same for the bottom right. Wherever the lines cross is their position.