Immersive techniques for the true subsimmer!

[les green01]

[QUOTE=derstosstrupp;2714516]It’s OK, it has a lot of good information, but I highly question some of the things about actual tactics in there. Some things are quite different than what contemporary sources say. For example, in there they claim that the standard night tactic was to sneak inside the screen underwater and then surface in the convoy, which was certainly not true, at least early war.

It also describes a standard night attack as running up from behind the convoy, which again, I wouldn’t call that standard. Standard was getting forward of the beam and running in on the “dog curve”, bow on target.

So just a little things like that, which I would like to say are minor, but in a book about tactics, I don’t know, it just isn’t quite reflective of the reality as I understand it to have been.[/QUOT
thanks i didn't get it but got The Official U-boat Commander's Handbook - The Illustrated Edition and u-boat commander a periscope view battle of the atlantic (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1781580553/ref=ox_ya_os_product)



(https://www.amazon.com/dp/1781580553/ref=ox_ya_os_product)

[derstosstrupp]

Also very good choice! For the text of that handbook, there are several errors in the wartime translation, so I would say supplement it with my retranslation as I fixed the contextual and language mistakes:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u_WNEHIi-gIq3cg1DVT89mGGSI_pCmH4/view?usp=drivesdk

[derstosstrupp]

Here are the myriad orders, particularly early war, with regard to detonator settings, as Germany struggled to reconcile the various torpedo problems. Not for the faint of heart!

Source is “Wolves Without Teeth: The German Torpedo Crisis in World War Two“ by David Habersham Wright.

MZ = magnetic detonator (“Magnetzünder”)
AZ = impact detonator (“Aufschlagzünder”)

At patrol start:
- Before Oct. 2 1939, your pistols are either set to MZ or AZ and cannot be changed during patrol. Randomly determine what eels are set to what. It was however possible to swap out pistols between torpedoes, so keep that in mind.

- After that date, decide when loading each eel into a tube what you want the setting to be (keeping the standing pistol orders in mind). No switching during attack!

- Roughly 75% of all torpedoes fired were G7e. This was the standard torpedo of the war, and cheaper to produce. Use a random number generator or dice to determine the type of each torpedo you get, 75% chance of each being G7e up to the following limits. For Type VIIB or C, you can load max 9 G7e (all tubes loaded with G7e, and 4 in bow internal storage). For VIIA, max 8 (bow tubes loaded with G7e, and 4 in bow internal storage). Unmentioned slots of course get G7a.

War start:
Torpedoes had the Pi1 pistol and had either MZ or AZ preset, which could not be changed during patrol (unless the pistols themselves were swapped between torpedoes). Leadership put its faith in MZ, so this was preferred due to the devastating results of exploding under the target’s keel. No limit on MZ use at this time.

Sept. 15, ’39:
For targets < 3,000 tons, use only AZ. Larger targets have a greater magnetic field sufficient to detonate the warhead.

Sept. 17, ’39:
Premature detonations continue. BdU forbids MZ. Use only AZ. Note that, since pistol settings could not be changed during patrol, these are odd orders, likely born of Dönitz’s frustration.

Oct. 2, ’39:
“Schalterstellung A” (switch position A) introduced, allowing the pistol settings to be switched on patrol between MZ and AZ, allowing the mandatory AZ setting to be set. [boats at sea during this time will be fitted with torpedoes with this on next patrol]

Oct. 11, ’39:
The torpedo inspectorate recommends a new cable layout in the torpedoes, and BdU allows MZ use again. [boats at sea during this time will be fitted with torpedoes with this on next patrol]

Oct. 18, ’39:
BdU forbids MZ again after U-46 reports multiple premature detonations.

Nov. 1, ’39:
Set depth 2 meters shallower than target draft due to deep-running torpedoes, but no shallower than 3 meters (4 in strong Atlantic waves). Finishing shots on stopped steamers depth setting 3 meters.

Nov. 8, ’39:
New pistol Pi a+b created with a reworked MZ detonator. Dönitz allows MZ firing again, but not with the G7a “fast” setting of 44 kn. Depth for MZ to be draft + 1 meter. [boats at sea during this time will be fitted with torpedoes with this on next patrol]

Jan. 18, ’40:
Targets < 4,000 tons use depth setting of 4 meters. All other targets use ship’s draft + 1 meter.

Mar. 19, ’40:
G7a fast setting of 44 kn forbidden. Only AZ setting allowed in cases where the boat absolutely must remain hidden. If boat’s position becomes compromised, OK to use MZ (as the consequence of premature detonation is not so dangerous then). Minimum torpedo run of 500 meters with MZ. Separate multiple shots by 9 seconds. Set depth 4 meters for all targets < 4,000 tons and destroyers.

Apr. 11, ’40 (for boats in Norway campaign):
Keep forward tubes ready with 3 eels set to AZ and one to MZ. Attacks against large targets are to be with AZ, depth setting 2 meters.

Apr. 18, ’40:
Norway campaign boats no longer use AZ except in narrow fjords. With MZ, set depth equal to draft, 4 meters against destroyers, 3-4 meters against submarines. With AZ, set 4 meters, 3 meters in good weather.

Apr. 21, ‘40:
MZ shots depth target draft + 1 meter. Against destroyers, subs, and steamers under 4,000 tons, set 3 meters in bad weather, 2 meters in good. For AZ, 3 meters against all targets, 2 meters in good weather. Against capital ships, when firing AZ, set depth 5 meters.

Jun. 1, ‘40:
MZ firing forbidden (would remain so until late 1942).

Jun. 20, ‘40:
G7a fast setting of 44 kn again permitted. Depth to be set as draft minus 3 meters (2 meters in excellent weather).

Jul. 30, ‘40:
G7a fast setting again banned. The need for higher torpedo production meant that improved torpedo engines could not be installed.

Nov. ‘42 (in Med) or Dec. ‘42 (in Atlantic):
The Pi2 pistol is introduced, correcting the MZ problem. [boats deploying to these areas after these dates are assumed to have the new pistol]

[John Pancoast]

Here are the myriad orders, particularly early war, with regard to detonator settings, as Germany struggled to reconcile the various torpedo problems. Not for the faint of heart!

Source is “Wolves Without Teeth: The German Torpedo Crisis in World War Two“ by David Habersham Wright.

MZ = magnetic detonator (“Magnetzünder”)
AZ = impact detonator (“Aufschlagzünder”)

At patrol start:
- Before Oct. 2 1939, your pistols are either set to MZ or AZ and cannot be changed during patrol. Randomly determine what eels are set to what. It was however possible to swap out pistols between torpedoes, so keep that in mind.

- After that date, decide when loading each eel into a tube what you want the setting to be (keeping the standing pistol orders in mind). No switching during attack!

- Roughly 75% of all torpedoes fired were G7e. This was the standard torpedo of the war, and cheaper to produce. Use a random number generator or dice to determine the type of each torpedo you get, 75% chance of each being G7e up to the following limits. For Type VIIB or C, you can load max 9 G7e (all tubes loaded with G7e, and 4 in bow internal storage). For VIIA, max 8 (bow tubes loaded with G7e, and 4 in bow internal storage). Unmentioned slots of course get G7a.

War start:
Torpedoes had the Pi1 pistol and had either MZ or AZ preset, which could not be changed during patrol (unless the pistols themselves were swapped between torpedoes). Leadership put its faith in MZ, so this was preferred due to the devastating results of exploding under the target’s keel. No limit on MZ use at this time.

Sept. 15, ’39:
For targets < 3,000 tons, use only AZ. Larger targets have a greater magnetic field sufficient to detonate the warhead.

Sept. 17, ’39:
Premature detonations continue. BdU forbids MZ. Use only AZ. Note that, since pistol settings could not be changed during patrol, these are odd orders, likely born of Dönitz’s frustration.

Oct. 2, ’39:
“Schalterstellung A” (switch position A) introduced, allowing the pistol settings to be switched on patrol between MZ and AZ, allowing the mandatory AZ setting to be set. [boats at sea during this time will be fitted with torpedoes with this on next patrol]

Oct. 11, ’39:
The torpedo inspectorate recommends a new cable layout in the torpedoes, and BdU allows MZ use again. [boats at sea during this time will be fitted with torpedoes with this on next patrol]

Oct. 18, ’39:
BdU forbids MZ again after U-46 reports multiple premature detonations.

Nov. 1, ’39:
Set depth 2 meters shallower than target draft due to deep-running torpedoes, but no shallower than 3 meters (4 in strong Atlantic waves). Finishing shots on stopped steamers depth setting 3 meters.

Nov. 8, ’39:
New pistol Pi a+b created with a reworked MZ detonator. Dönitz allows MZ firing again, but not with the G7a “fast” setting of 44 kn. Depth for MZ to be draft + 1 meter. [boats at sea during this time will be fitted with torpedoes with this on next patrol]

Jan. 18, ’40:
Targets < 4,000 tons use depth setting of 4 meters. All other targets use ship’s draft + 1 meter.

Mar. 19, ’40:
G7a fast setting of 44 kn forbidden. Only AZ setting allowed in cases where the boat absolutely must remain hidden. If boat’s position becomes compromised, OK to use MZ (as the consequence of premature detonation is not so dangerous then). Minimum torpedo run of 500 meters with MZ. Separate multiple shots by 9 seconds. Set depth 4 meters for all targets < 4,000 tons and destroyers.

Apr. 11, ’40 (for boats in Norway campaign):
Keep forward tubes ready with 3 eels set to AZ and one to MZ. Attacks against large targets are to be with AZ, depth setting 2 meters.

Apr. 18, ’40:
Norway campaign boats no longer use AZ except in narrow fjords. With MZ, set depth equal to draft, 4 meters against destroyers, 3-4 meters against submarines. With AZ, set 4 meters, 3 meters in good weather.

Apr. 21, ‘40:
MZ shots depth target draft + 1 meter. Against destroyers, subs, and steamers under 4,000 tons, set 3 meters in bad weather, 2 meters in good. For AZ, 3 meters against all targets, 2 meters in good weather. Against capital ships, when firing AZ, set depth 5 meters.

Jun. 1, ‘40:
MZ firing forbidden (would remain so until late 1942).

Jun. 20, ‘40:
G7a fast setting of 44 kn again permitted. Depth to be set as draft minus 3 meters (2 meters in excellent weather).

Jul. 30, ‘40:
G7a fast setting again banned. The need for higher torpedo production meant that improved torpedo engines could not be installed.

Nov. ‘42 (in Med) or Dec. ‘42 (in Atlantic):
The Pi2 pistol is introduced, correcting the MZ problem. [boats deploying to these areas after these dates are assumed to have the new pistol]


Nice ! I may have to whip up a SH3C date files with these instructions for SH3 anyway.
Recently made some date files eliminating u-boats carrying topside torpedoes and so only Liberators and Avengers use FIDO torpedoes per historical orders.

[les green01]

merry christmas folks thanks to everyone who doing the videos on here from what i have read so far in the commander handbook there a couple things i been doing wrong so i guess i need a good old school paddling but i been not doing on underwater attack from 4000 meters to 2k going all silent,getting range with high instead of low,while doing a phone search not going silent,enemy sound location is to be anticipated and if the speed of the enemy is slow and sea calm the attemp must be made to go in for the attack on electric motors anyone know if they can sound locate you on the surface on this game

[les green01]

anyone else plays with wearing U-Boat Captain cap i just order one

[bstanko6]

Always!

[les green01]

since i started reading the books steel boat iron hearts,das boot,iron coffins,commander handbook and u-boat tactics my playing has gotten better on the polish mission i got two polish warships,two polish merchants and a british uboat with only one eel missing and remembering to load eels in the tubes on the surface now way Hans Goebeler talk like it took them almost all night to load the tubes up i think he said 6 hours if so seem like the game is loading them to fast

[Tonci87]

since i started reading the books steel boat iron hearts,das boot,iron coffins,commander handbook and u-boat tactics my playing has gotten better on the polish mission i got two polish warships,two polish merchants and a british uboat with only one eel missing and remembering to load eels in the tubes on the surface now way Hans Goebeler talk like it took them almost all night to load the tubes up i think he said 6 hours if so seem like the game is loading them to fast

6 hours? That is not possible. Maybe he was talking about the reloading of external reserves. Or the regular maintenance for torpedoes where you had to take them out of the tubes, service them, and then load them back in.

[les green01]

way he talks in the book or least way im understanding it there was bunks in the room that had to be folded up when in combat or maintenance,Once the torpedoes were launched the U-boat would withdraw, on the surface, hoping to evade the escorts. Then, and only then, would time be taken to reload torpedoes, which were stored below the decking, outside the pressure hull.Took anything up to an hour and a half.Each torpedo weighed about 1.5 tons and had to be manoeuvred through a hatch, into the torpedo room and then into the tube.so way i'm also taking it is they didnt even have eels in the room at all ok Werner now says that eels was put in racks inside the boat then cover with boards then bunks and took a hour to load which sounds better and would match after patrol reports i have read Hans Goebeler was under meds and dying when he did his book so i think he was probly talking about loading external reserves so im just going go with a hour to reload and call it good

[Tonci87]

way he talks in the book or least way im understanding it there was bunks in the room that had to be folded up when in combat or maintenance,Once the torpedoes were launched the U-boat would withdraw, on the surface, hoping to evade the escorts. Then, and only then, would time be taken to reload torpedoes, which were stored below the decking, outside the pressure hull.Took anything up to an hour and a half.Each torpedo weighed about 1.5 tons and had to be manoeuvred through a hatch, into the torpedo room and then into the tube.so way i'm also taking it is they didnt even have eels in the room at all ok Werner now says that eels was put in racks inside the boat then cover with boards then bunks and took a hour to load which sounds better and would match after patrol reports i have read Hans Goebeler was under meds and dying when he did his book so i think he was probly talking about loading external reserves so im just going go with a hour to reload and call it good


Yeah, he is talking about reloading torpedoes from the external reserve.
normal loading time per torpedo is about 15 minutes, depending on crew training and readiness.
Why is it taking this long? The torpedo needs to be checked before it is loaded, and then it also needs to be lubed to get it into the tube. Therefore the whole surface of the torpedo is covered with grease.

[bstanko6]

Hey guys. I started another YouTube channel several months ago. It’s the War Room channel featuring war board and PC games. It’s fairly new and I’m looking for support.

If you are interested, come check it out. I just featured Steel Wolves: the German submarine campaign, by Compass Games. It’s a solo board game where the player assumes the role of Karl Doenitz commanding BDU.

Check it out!

https://youtu.be/MVH5Hn82oFE

[John Pancoast]

Hey guys. I started another YouTube channel several months ago. It’s the War Room channel featuring war board and PC games. It’s fairly new and I’m looking for support.

If you are interested, come check it out. I just featured Steel Wolves: the German submarine campaign, by Compass Games. It’s a solo board game where the player assumes the role of Karl Doenitz commanding BDU.

Check it out!

https://youtu.be/MVH5Hn82oFE

That game sounds interesting; what's your take on it ?

[bstanko6]

It’s grand strategy. It is a really long game. But if you ever wanted to know what it was like to be Doenitz in the war, this is the one way of doing it. Is your role for each ship, and there are a lot of ships, you’ll be experiencing loan ships, tankers, and convoys. You’ll have to figure out what to do when your boats have to come in for repair and they’re stuck in repair for long periods of time. All the while, you will receive missions from the Luftwaffe, OkB, BDU, and German high command. These missions will give you certain perks later on the war, well if you don’t do them they may hurt you.

Great game, just very very long. Lots of die rolling.

The fact they made it digital, makes it much more easier to handle.

[John Pancoast]

It’s grand strategy. It is a really long game. But if you ever wanted to know what it was like to be Doenitz in the war, this is the one way of doing it. Is your role for each ship, and there are a lot of ships, you’ll be experiencing loan ships, tankers, and convoys. You’ll have to figure out what to do when your boats have to come in for repair and they’re stuck in repair for long periods of time. All the while, you will receive missions from the Luftwaffe, OkB, BDU, and German high command. These missions will give you certain perks later on the war, well if you don’t do them they may hurt you.

Great game, just very very long. Lots of die rolling.

The fact they made it digital, makes it much more easier to handle.

:up: Thanks !

[Storm501]

Continuing discussion about external torpedos, I remember reading that Otto Krechmer didn't even take externals for his patrols. He concluded that loading them at sea made the Uboat too vulnerable.

Although it is difficult to resist loading all torps you can before patrol, I find myself leaning to the same conclusion over time. Each time I initiate transfer at 0000Z, in complete radio silence, it is still nerve-wrecking to be stuck on the surface for hours with the hatches open. What if there is a sudden DD patrol or leigh-light ASW aircraft...

So perhaps next time I need to consider the priorities at base. Which one is #1, crew survival or sunk tonnage?

[John Pancoast]

Continuing discussion about external torpedos, I remember reading that Otto Krechmer didn't even take externals for his patrols. He concluded that loading them at sea made the Uboat too vulnerable.

Although it is difficult to resist loading all torps you can before patrol, I find myself leaning to the same conclusion over time. Each time I initiate transfer at 0000Z, in complete radio silence, it is still nerve-wrecking to be stuck on the surface for hours with the hatches open. What if there is a sudden DD patrol or leigh-light ASW aircraft...

So perhaps next time I need to consider the priorities at base. Which one is #1, crew survival or sunk tonnage?


Well, they weren't transferred at night anyway for obvious crew safety reasons; tricky enough dealing with a heavy torpedo on a moving platform during daylight, i.e., let alone in the dark. :)

If you want to follow the historical timeline there should be no externals after 5/43. If not, load 'em up !

[Aktungbby]

...in another related thread we (Fubar, Pancoast) recently discussed concluded that none of the type IX carried reloads due to air cover and I noted that Hardigan the drumbeater only carried 16 in his American coast raid. Air cover and the particularly miserable weather conditions of the Atlantic precluded convenient loading times -generally 4 hours -to wrangle fresh steam eels below deck. The electric eels were never carried above deck. Also even a near DC attack would render the top-stored eels inoperative and not worth risking an expensive Uboat and crew to find out which ones. The type IX's, in addition to being at 2/3 eel complement, were removed from the Atlantic main convoy routes by '43. Aces Silent Otto and the Bull of Scapa were long gone by then.

[Storm501]

There was some discussion that in reality hydrophones were quite rarely used, especially outside combat.

What I don't understand that why didn't they submerge during night for hydrophone search. At night one would think that it is difficult to visually spot any blacked out ships, outside a range of few kilometers. So why not stay at hydro depth where you should be able to hear further?

Of course I understand that commonly at night U-boats charged their battery on the surface, but if batteries were full, why not hydro search the night if you are patrolling at station...

If someone broke light discipline like smoked on the merchant, then visual searching could grant a real lottery win. But it is my impression that blackout always held.

[John Pancoast]

There was some discussion that in reality hydrophones were quite rarely used, especially outside combat.

What I don't understand that why didn't they submerge during night for hydrophone search. At night one would think that it is difficult to visually spot any blacked out ships, outside a range of few kilometers. So why not stay at hydro depth where you should be able to hear further?

Of course I understand that commonly at night U-boats charged their battery on the surface, but if batteries were full, why not hydro search the night if you are patrolling at station...

If someone broke light discipline like smoked on the merchant, then visual searching could grant a real lottery win. But it is my impression that blackout always held.

Hydrophones were considered old tech and were not used in escorts sub hunting. Not heard of them not being used by subs unless you mean for attacking.
In terms of using them for night attacks, mobility was one of the very understandable main reasons for the surface night attacks. Once submerged that edge (u-boats on the surface were faster than some escorts) was gone.

[Storm501]

Perhaps I didn't write my question specific enough :yep:

Why didn't Kriegsmarine U-boats submerge at night for the purpose of listening for merchant shipping on the hydrophone. Surely you can hydro-hear a darkened ship/convoy further at night than you can see it?

Yes, once a hydro contact is made and rough position/course established, U-boat would surface and race at full speed intercept course for the hydro contact.

Approach and attack surfaced of course (before escort radar). Only spotting at 5-25 km range pre-approach until visual contact with the aid of hydrophone.

[John Pancoast]

Perhaps I didn't write my question specific enough :yep:

Why didn't Kriegsmarine U-boats submerge at night for the purpose of listening for merchant shiping on the hydrophone. Surely you can hydro-hear a darkened ship/convoy further at night than you can see it?

Yes, once a hydro contact is made and perhaps rough position/course established, U-boat would surface and race at full speed intercept course for the hydro contact, and perhaps to listen again a bit closer to check that the intercept course is correct.

Probably for the same reason they didn't do it during the day; doing so is looking for a needle in a haystack, i.e.
That's what rdf, other boats sightings/beacons, BdU info. etc. was for.

[derstosstrupp]

The hydrophones were a very unreliable tool, an aid at best. That’s why the doctrine was to stay surfaced to search for contacts and only submerge and listen if compelled to do so. This doctrine is reflected in the commander’s handbook. I would recommend reading the book “Secret Diaries of a U-boat” by Hirschfeld, he was a radio man and that book lays bare the real shortcomings of hydrophones. They were dependent on the salinity of the water in sea areas, the plankton content, many factors affected their usability. His skipper, the ace Bleichrodt, had very little use for them as is evident in the book (apart from using them to evade, and even then he doesn’t trust it - his words: “what’d I tell you Hirschfeld, the tech is ****”)

No game gets hydrophones right. They are highly overpowered in every sim I’ve ever seen.

[John Pancoast]

The hydrophones were a very unreliable tool, an aid at best. That’s why the doctrine was to stay surfaced to search for contacts and only submerge and listen if compelled to do so. This doctrine is reflected in the commander’s handbook. I would recommend reading the book “Secret Diaries of a U-boat” by Hirschfeld, he was a radio man and that book lays bare the real shortcomings of hydrophones. They were dependent on the salinity of the water in sea areas, the plankton content, many factors affected their usability. His skipper, the ace Bleichrodt, had very little use for them as is evident in the book (apart from using them to evade, and even then he doesn’t trust it - his words: “what’d I tell you Hirschfeld, the tech is ****”)

No game gets hydrophones right. They are highly overpowered in every sim I’ve ever seen.

:up: Though it could be argued that having them overpowered helps with the situational awareness shortcomings that 2d pc limitations can sometimes cause.

[Storm501]

I took a look at Uboat.net
Possibilities of underwater sound detecting in WW2:

Experienced underwater sound detector operator was able to determine is a detected ship a cargo ship or a warship (type of the warship), approximate speed or manoeuvre of the ship (approaching, digression, increasing or decreasing of speed and depth, if detected object was a submarine).

When detected (submerged) submarine stopped her moving, the operator was able to determine which mechanisms of the submarine still operated. To avoid own noises, a submarine could use underwater sound detector if her speed was up to 6 knots. If a submarine speed was 4 knots, the submarine's underwater sound detector average distance of detecting another object was:

- for a destroyer- 5 to 10 nautical miles, (9-18km)
- for a cargo ship- 3.5 to 7.5 nautical miles, (6-14km)
- for a convoy- up to 50 nautical miles. (90km)

If a submarine speed was 15 knots, the submarine's underwater sound detector possibility of detecting another object was rapidly decreased [although no submarines except XXI and XXIII were able to reach that speed during WWII]. In that case, average distance of detecting another object was up to few hundred metres.
Ok perhaps in game hydrophone is bit overpowered if it always hears Merchant at 25 km. On the other hand, these are average ranges at 4 kn speed, so at 0 kn or optimal conditions ranges could be up to 25 km.

So it is hard to tell a final conclusion. Seems that we are left with the first hand accounts of the people using the hydrophone. Also I have to believe that if using hydrophone at night would have granted a significant advantage, surely the U-boat crews would have seized it. Hundreds of crews had spent thousands of hours at sea, so I imagine they tried everything to increase tonnage sunk.

[John Pancoast]

I took a look at Uboat.net

Ok perhaps in game hydrophone is bit overpowered if it always hears Merchant at 25 km. On the other hand, these are average ranges at 4 kn speed, so at 0 kn or optimal conditions ranges could be up to 25 km.

So it is hard to tell a final conclusion. Seems that we are left with the first hand accounts of the people using the hydrophone. Also I have to believe that if using hydrophone at night would have granted a significant advantage, surely the U-boat crews would have seized it. Hundreds of crews had spent thousands of hours at sea, so I imagine they tried everything to increase tonnage sunk.

Myself, I'll take first hand accounts of info. over most anything else including uboat.net. I.e., WW2 subs could not stop and hold in place.
To often specs. of equipment/weapons used in games are "laboratory" specs. vs. specs of use "in the field". The two rarely are the same.

[NiceSub]

The hydrophones were a very unreliable tool, an aid at best. That’s why the doctrine was to stay surfaced to search for contacts and only submerge and listen if compelled to do so. This doctrine is reflected in the commander’s handbook. I would recommend reading the book “Secret Diaries of a U-boat” by Hirschfeld, he was a radio man and that book lays bare the real shortcomings of hydrophones. They were dependent on the salinity of the water in sea areas, the plankton content, many factors affected their usability. His skipper, the ace Bleichrodt, had very little use for them as is evident in the book (apart from using them to evade, and even then he doesn’t trust it - his words: “what’d I tell you Hirschfeld, the tech is ****”)

No game gets hydrophones right. They are highly overpowered in every sim I’ve ever seen.

So what kind of search pattern on the surface we should set up to find targets? How should I sail it? Also SH5 has that thing where if you are using TC the game will stutter for a second when its loading target in your area. For me that is a sign to dive and listen on hydrophone, in 99% cases I will hear something.

[derstosstrupp]

So what kind of search pattern on the surface we should set up to find targets? How should I sail it? Also SH5 has that thing where if you are using TC the game will stutter for a second when its loading target in your area. For me that is a sign to dive and listen on hydrophone, in 99% cases I will hear something.

Typically they traveled up and down in their area. That’s what I do as well. I’m also ok with going weeks without a sighting as was historically often the case.

What I wish we had is Vorpostenstreifen, the patrol lines set up by BdU north to south. He would even tell boats “travel x degrees at x knots til further notice”.

We are way more on our own in these sims than they were in real life. BdU dictated their every move in most cases. It would be nice to get more orders like that.

[bstanko6]

I started a discord server called War Room. It's a war game channel, but I also have a channel for SH5. Come on over and join me and others for games and chat!

Discord:
https://discord.gg/6tFeTSUmVc

[derstosstrupp]

Joined (Stosstrupp)!

[bstanko6]

Thank you friend!

[les green01]

joined Les Green,does anyone else like to watch them load the eels in the tubes

[bstanko6]

Uh yeah! It’s like waiting for Christmas!

[Noonai]

Back from a long break on SH5 for lack of time and work reasons but coming back again! And I see this thread it's still going very strong so hopefully I will be able to contribute. But happy to see I have 6 or 7 pages to read through.

[les green01]

ok question for the experts 09-01-39 at 0130 you sight a british u class do you pop it or send a contact report

[derstosstrupp]

ok question for the experts 09-01-39 at 0130 you sight a british u class do you pop it or send a contact report

Since Britain declared war on Germany on the 3rd, and Germany was doing its damnedest on the 1st to change Britain’s mind, I’d say not a good idea.

[les green01]

what i figure i sent the contact report in i don't think i would try i was protecting the invasion fleet idea

[Tonci87]

ok question for the experts 09-01-39 at 0130 you sight a british u class do you pop it or send a contact report

I´d say no. Hostilities have not begun yet, and even after the war declaration by GB, the Germans left them alone for quite a while because they hoped to make peace.

[Muckenberg]

Isn't that a Polish submarine?

[les green01]

Isn't that a Polish submarine?

Poland didn't get the u-class from britian until 41 and 42 the 5 subs they had in 39 was wilk class and two Orzel class one of them wasn't ready in september so guess i'm going have to think of them has british and not pop them

[Muckenberg]

Good day
if you play TWoS, then the Polish submarines are simulated here in the U class. So if a submarine wanders in the Gdansk Bay, it will be 100% Polish. Unfortunately, the creators of the game did not create more types of allied submarines. :Kaleun_Salute::Kaleun_Salute:

[bstanko6]

Bump

[bstanko6]

Just want to say thank you to all my subscribers! We came a long way from a few videos to a wide range of instructional videos for SH3/5!

We now sit at 950 subscribers. Would love to hit the 1000 mark! If you like my videos please like and subscribe!

I appreciate all of you and please stay healthy!

[les green01]

almost got too feel bad for the crews been in wind and sea state 10 for 5 days just got message that i can patrol or rtb got too make up my mind to end the patrol with only 3 ships sunk and maybe get the scapa flow mission in or sink more ships on this patrol

[kapuhy]

almost got too feel bad for the crews been in wind and sea state 10 for 5 days just got message that i can patrol or rtb got too make up my mind to end the patrol with only 3 ships sunk and maybe get the scapa flow mission in or sink more ships on this patrol

Imagine you and your crew there:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/f/f5/Stalingrad_%281993%29.png

and be more aggressive!

[les green01]

got my first carrier in TWoS the heavy cruiser got away the crew was cheering and clapping but we have 20 escorts all around us inn 140 meters of water going be a fun ride

[bstanko6]

Good luck!

[les green01]

3 hours of dept charges over 200 drop only thing not being able to be fix is the o scope which i don't use much anyway only officer not wounded is the second officer even the cook got wounded when 3 to 5 escorts was making attack runs at the same time it was a toss up which one to turn into most times i guess right and didnt get damage

[bstanko6]

Wow! That’s one hell of a situation! Most of the time I use instinct to evade charges. Good job!

[bstanko6]

To answer the question of why our torpedoes miss... and this is answering questions from the SH3 thread as well as here...

You must check three things:

1) check AOB. Extremely important! Make sure you can get as close to the right AOB as possible. This may mean getting close to your target to double check.

2) check AOB port or starboard calculation! A lot of new players will mess this up. If the ship is headed to the right but you select port, the torp will sail the opposite direction!

3) the U-Boat is not a sniper! It’s an ambusher! You need to get as close as possible to eliminate calculation error! I understand that later in the war, it will be near impossible to do this, which is why the Torps will change and be fire from a distance (zig zag, homing torpedoes, etc.).

[les green01]

when you doing a 360 before surfacing do one 360 in low zoom and then do one in high its not fun to surface in mist of a escort SQ having their afternoon tea and tommies get mad when you crash their tea party

[bstanko6]

Bump

[CJMars]

Not sure if this was mentioned before:

I use an iPad App called “Sub Buddy”. It’s a digital version of the attack disc and TADS computer. They even added a visual AOB option if desired.

What I really love about the app is the tutorial library. The guy they had record the tutorials goes through a TON of good techniques on how the attack disc and TADS computer were used.

Even more incredible is the U-Boat Commanders Handbook; it’s included in the app. I mention it because I saw you have your own physical copy (where did you find that by the way?).

Anyhow, the app isn’t free, $5 if memory serves, but it’s helped me a ton. It’s a lot better than using the attack disc in game, and the TADS computer can easily replace the RAOBF. Good hunting 07

[derstosstrupp]

Not sure if this was mentioned before:

I use an iPad App called “Sub Buddy”. It’s a digital version of the attack disc and TADS computer. They even added a visual AOB option if desired.

What I really love about the app is the tutorial library. The guy they had record the tutorials goes through a TON of good techniques on how the attack disc and TADS computer were used.

Even more incredible is the U-Boat Commanders Handbook; it’s included in the app. I mention it because I saw you have your own physical copy (where did you find that by the way?).

Anyhow, the app isn’t free, $5 if memory serves, but it’s helped me a ton. It’s a lot better than using the attack disc in game, and the TADS computer can easily replace the RAOBF. Good hunting 07

Really glad to hear you are getting a lot out of the app! I’m the guy in the tutorials, if you have any questions about anything, please feel free to reach out.

[CJMars]

Really glad to hear you are getting a lot out of the app! I’m the guy in the tutorials, if you have any questions about anything, please feel free to reach out.

I’ll remember that. For now, all I have to say is thank you to you and the team that developed it. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

[bstanko6]

Hey guys I just wanted to reach out to the subsim crew and ask that you subscribe to my channel if you haven’t already. I am only seven subscriptions away from monetization, and I would love to be able to do that for you and make more videos. This is a call out for subscriptions and if you like my videos please show your appreciation if I can get those seven subscriptions thank you so much.

[Vox165]

...ask that you subscribe to my channel if you haven’t already. Done_Great stuff bstanko!

[bstanko6]

Thank you Vox! I appreciate that.

[Vox165]

This is a Interesting thread . Finding ways to add immersion really improves our games.

Maybe a list of immersion killers would be helpful too. Developer's of new games could use a list like this because they seem to repeat them.

I can think of some immersion killers. AutoSaves that pop up at the wrong moment is one. Those of you who have been around awhile remember the red flashing targeting triangle in SH2/DC. You couldn't get rid of it. It was hardcoded and impossible to make transparent. Fortunately was not carried over into SH3.

Seems "UBoat" it heading for similar . I played the newest update last night for the first time and they still have a immersion killer large "Lock/unlock icon" below the target when you point your scope at it. It also looks like it may be hardcode. Can it be mod out? To their credit the devs have removed a lot of other target icons on the map after hearing complaints.

Then theres the WWI subsim, 1914:Shells Of Fury. I liked this unfinished sim. However by simply pointing your scope at a target , the default game displayed the enemy ID and ALL its targeting parameters. Target Icons and text pop up everywhere- its nuts. Zero challenge. Why bother playing a game like this. Point and press a button. ( Note: I was finally able to mod most of it out. )

This game also lacks a patrol save, What were the dev thinking? in a sub game? Really? a real immersion killer for anyone wanting play the campaign which actually very good. There's more in other sims but enough of my ranting.

[Crazy_Ivan2021]

Thank you Vox! I appreciate that.

I subscribed as well a couple of days back. Your vids and tutorials were a big help.

[Aktungbby]

Crazy_Ivan2021!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Ashikaga]

Made the game a bit more immersive by turning off Entry saving and entry shown in ship's journal and starting to add my own entries. Saves a lot of clutter and really makes you pay attention to what you are doing.....

[bstanko6]

https://youtu.be/YloU9DXcnS0

[les green01]

nice video least you not walking the dog i can hear hold on guys my dog got to take a dump wow he did let a whole line of dc's off :har: myself i don't go silent unless i need too i just keep moving close my eyes picture what sonar and the sounds are telling me then just work my way though think like a fox i think people here a ping they think oh crap escort got me i don't do much until i hear the pings coming faster then i know they got me peg

[bstanko6]

Bump for those they still want to read this

[bstanko6]

Wanted to say thank you to all the subscribers to my YouTube channel. You guys are making it bigger and better. It tells me that I taught you guys something crucial in this wonderful game!

I can’t believe they’re only a number of years ago I started making these videos and now I’m looking at all the videos I’ve made and all the wonderful comments.

It’s getting harder to figure out what else to make a video on! Hence the reason I been away.

If you guys have any ideas of what videos I should make next for you please let me know. I will let you know if I’m able to make that video or not if I have the knowledge to even start a video.

Just let me know!

[Cybermat47]

Congrats on hitting 1k :)

[bstanko6]

Thank you I really appreciate it

[TheNolan]

Really interesting stuff here, still going through all the videos. No longer using the periscope when travelling 5 knots or more and learning the 4 bearings method! Thanks everyonie esp bstanko and tonci87

[bstanko6]

Glad we can help enhance your game!

[bstanko6]

Bump

[ConvoyHunting]

Typically they traveled up and down in their area. That’s what I do as well. I’m also ok with going weeks without a sighting as was historically often the case.

What I wish we had is Vorpostenstreifen, the patrol lines set up by BdU north to south. He would even tell boats “travel x degrees at x knots til further notice”.

We are way more on our own in these sims than they were in real life. BdU dictated their every move in most cases. It would be nice to get more orders like that.


True, almost every movements and actions of U-Boote on patrol area were micro-managed and dictated by B.D.U. In addition, Kaleuns weren't really enthusiastics about "hunting freely" on locations.
About ""Vorpostenstreifen", if found this passage in "Convoy S.C122 & GX229 : Climax of the Battle of the Atlantic, March 1943" by Martin Middlebrook.



The distance between U-boats in patrol lines was about twenty sea miles [...] A Gruppe that was sweeping forward to meet an expected convoy was an "Aufklärungsstreifen" - a "reconnaissance" or "patrol line" - while a Gruppe that was ordered to remain static on a given line became a "Vorpostenstreifen" - an "outpost" or "picket line".

U-boat men much prefered to be in one of these lines than on the "free manoeuvre" type of operation in wich a boat was given an area of ocean and left to search for targets in it [...] We were always very pleased to get the order from B.d.U. to form a patrol line, we knew from experience that this gave the best opportunity of finding a convoy. We put the best men on look-out duty; very often there was a bootle of champagne or cognac on return to harbour for the man who made the first sighting. Morale reached the depths when storms or rain blotted out visibility and went even lower if the sweep went on too long without a sighting. (Käpitänleutnant Kurt Baberg, U.618)

[derstosstrupp]

For realistic fan shooting:
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2814386&postcount=22

[les green01]

Got to admit I hadn't been around much or playing sh5 don't know maybe do videos doing a historical campaign from start to finish

[bstanko6]

I encourage anyone visiting this subject start at page 1. Full of great stuff from many individuals here at Subsim!

[derstosstrupp]

The “Mehrfachschuss”:

One of the three types of firing (besides single shots and fans) was the “Mehrfachschuss”, or multiple shot. This type is very little known, and so if you want to use it the way the Germans used it, I will lay it out. In the game it is easy enough to just shift the point of aim to different parts of the target in rapid succession, but if you want to simulate how a shot like this was done in real life, here it is. This differed from “Einzelschüsse”, which were single shots that were individually aimed at separate targets.

You can see mention of this both in the commander’s handbook (1) as well as the British report on the captured U-570 (2):

(1)
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1301&pictureid=12623
“171. To the extent sufficient torpedoes are still available, multiple shots (double or triple shots) should be used against valuable targets, even if at close range and with reliable shooting data. All shots should then hit, the purpose being to destroy the enemy with certainty. In doing this, the shots should be fired by shifting the aiming point on the target.”

(2)
https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1301&pictureid=12624

How -
The gist of it is you fire what is effectively a longitudinal spread, either two or three torpedoes all on the same bearing, at intervals of 8 seconds. This interval insured that torpedoes did not interfere with each other when firing MZ and also made it easier on the man at the firing switch box in the control room.

For a Mehrfachschuss of 2:
You take the target speed and multiply it by 2, and then shift your aim point that many meters forward of target center. Fire, wait 8 seconds on same bearing, fire again.

As an example, say the target is going 16 kn. In 8 seconds that target will travel about 65 m. You take 16×2, which is 32, so shift your aim point 32 m forward of the target’s center. You fire, and by the time the 8 seconds are up and you fire the next torpedo, your aim point should be somewhere in the aft half of the target, providing a nice forward/aft dispersion so both hit.

For a Mehrfachschuss of 3:
Same as above however you would just multiply the target speed by 4. In the example above, you would have shifted your aim point about 64 m forward, and so in 8 more seconds, your aim point is then center mass for the second torpedo, and then aft for the third.



The Germans used this for firing on good data when they wanted all two or three torpedoes to hit to ensure sinking. They used fans (“spreads”) to ensure one hit (on bad data), as the handbook lays out.

[bstanko6]

If anyone ever needs me to dig up a video for them to help them out to learn how to play this game please do not hesitate to ask. I’ve made many videos on many subjects about SH three and five and I’m more than willing to help you find whatever you need.

[Rosco74]

Hello, thanks for all the tips, I have read that with great interest. I do have a question as a player playing full immersive. How do you remove or hide the alert for shallow waters or the alert when your sub is close to the bottom of the sea?
I find it really not immersive :-/

Thanks

edit : And another question. I never used another setting than impact for my torpedoes. How do you set your torpedoes (impact or magnetic) and wich death ? I would really appreciate your point of view, thanks again

[bstanko6]

Rosco, I have an old version of TWOS, but in the upper right hand of the screen there is a button for shallow depth alerts. Click that off.

Here is my video on torpedo settings:

https://youtu.be/T71-yLROC8Y

Hope this helps!

[Rosco74]

Thank you I will check that button, strange I've never seen it before, I am on the last version of TWOS.
And thanks for this video, very nice I learned some nice tips ;)

[bstanko6]

Good! I very glad the vid helped.

[Rosco74]

bstanko6 I checked ingame and no there is no switch to hide the alerts. You can drag and move them out of screen, but then the alert for active abilities like "silent running" or "battle stations" would be hidden as well.

[bstanko6]

Sorry, I don’t know how to help. I have a really old version.

[bstanko6]

https://youtu.be/oNFvp-edlfY

At 26:10… you can see how close I get to a destroyer without being seen! Profile is everything in Silent Hunter!

[Rosco74]

Excellent video thanks !

[les green01]

https://youtu.be/oNFvp-edlfY

At 26:10… you can see how close I get to a destroyer without being seen! Profile is everything in Silent Hunter!

great video i have got within 100 meters and not been detected also in one of the twos docs said they can sound locate you

[bstanko6]

Bump

Still has very good information in the beginning page! Merry Christmas!

[bstanko6]

Bump

[bstanko6]

Please see first page

[Mister_M]

If you're seeking for realism, then, at night:

- You can't see anything with binocculars, UZO nor persicopes, and hardly with your eyes, unless there is enough moon light.

- You can't see anything during a cloudy night, even with your eyes (unless a ship is illuminated of course).

[Vox165]

Interesting topic. I have some RL experience fishing in the deep dark night (1-4am) on the Atlantic ocean and surf for striped bass. These fish are nocturnal feeders. It always amazes how far you can see under some conditions once you adjust. You can spot fish at times even with optics . You don’t always see the fish themselves, but rather the water disturbance caused by their movements on the surface or beneath. Even in the white surf line foam at night you can spot fins and fish moving and feeding from remarkable distances at times. The worst conditions are a new moon below the horizon with a low mists and a irregular wind blowing counter to water movement. I always felt that one reason the Japanese were expert night fighters was because they were also expert night fisherman.

[Mister_M]

Interesting topic. I have some RL experience fishing in the deep dark night (1-4am) on the Atlantic ocean and surf for striped bass. These fish are nocturnal feeders. It always amazes how far you can see under some conditions once you adjust. You can spot fish at times even with optics . You don’t always see the fish themselves, but rather the water disturbance caused by their movements on the surface or beneath. Even in the white surf line foam at night you can spot fins and fish moving and feeding from remarkable distances at times. The worst conditions are a new moon below the horizon with a low mists and a irregular wind blowing counter to water movement. I always felt that one reason the Japanese were expert night fighters was because they were also expert night fisherman.

Thank you for your testimony. :up:
Today I've read this: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1825864&postcount=64

[gmetzo]

Jesus christ man , that tips list is phenomenal!
Everytime I stumble upon something that's yours ( your channel or forum posts ) I am consistently blown away!

[bstanko6]

Glad to hear it!

[les green01]

i got the whole house rig for red at night early years escorts if they are close at night cut the speed good chance they wont spot you if i remember right sound detection works in TWoS if so there a chance they can hear you