Reinforce Alert - Tiers

[p7p8]

Tiers for current RA version.

Of course its my subjective opinion for SSN's:


Tier X ------ Seawolf -/- Akula III
Tier IX ----- Trenchant/Seawolf 23
Tier VIII --- Virginia/Trafalgar/Suffren -/- Akula II
Tier VII ---- LA III
Tier VI ----- Shang -/- Akula I improved/Mike
Tier V -------LA II -/- Alfa
Tier IV ----- LA I -/- Akula I
Tier III ----- Sturgeon L/Amethyste -/- Victor III
Tier II ------ Sturgeon -/- Victor II
Tier I ------- Rubis -/- Victor I

Im not sure about Shang (Type 093)
Are you agree with me?
Have you own Tier proposition?

[Wolfcat]

I kinda disagree on VA class. It's the newest class of subs in the US navy. Its sensors and computer systems should prolly be the best in the world. At least it should match or even surpass the latest Seawolf class. I am not talking about the speed, maneuverability or deep diving ability. But in terms of sensors and computers, it should not be less.

[FPSchazly]

Well, remember this is for as modeled in RA, not an absolute rating of real life. I'd personally put Virginia above Seawolf 23 and below Seawolf, as the game models the Virginia as slightly noisier, it is slower than Seawolf (should be faster than LA *cough* physics *cough*), and has fewer torpedo tubes.

[Wolfcat]

I would definitely agree with you on VA's speed and physics. I think they just quote the info off Wikipedia and take it as official. A nuke attack sub with a top speed below 30? That's just lack of common sense.

[FPSchazly]

I would definitely agree with you on VA's speed and physics. I think they just quote the info off Wikipedia and take it as official. A nuke attack sub with a top speed below 30? That's just lack of common sense.

It's worth noting that Permit and Sturgeon both had top speeds below 30 knots. Speed didn't come back until the LA. The Virginia basically has the same external dimensions as an LA, so you'd expect quite similar drag, and the Virginia has 40000 shp compared to the LA's 35000 shp, which alone would result in a top speed of about 34.5 knots with a back-of-the-napkin calculation (assuming the LA has a top speed of 33 knots and the Virginia has the same screw and drag properties of the LA). However, I'm not sure what type of drag/efficiency penalties apply with a pump jet. I think it's reasonable to assume the Virginia is the same top speed as the LA or maybe a knot more, given how similar the boats are in other respects.

[p7p8]

Virginia top speed is probably very close to value from RA (info from player who serve onboard real Virginia class) - i assume its less than 30 kts or not more than 30 kts.

Btw tiers table were made for RA 1.45 - not for real submarines

This is sensors comparison:

https://i.imgur.com/qz1zx2y.gif

In my opinion Seawolf is much better than Virginia because have greater maximum and tactical speed and much greater firepower (and only noticable less sensitive sensors).

[Wolfcat]

Is VA noisier than SW in real life? If that's the case, it's really hard to believe. SW has a much more powerful reactor. On the other hand, all noise reduction measures should be roughly the same on both boats. Now VA is way slower and noisier. Doesn't sound like a good deal the Navy would buy into.

[FPSchazly]

I would assume at the very least as quiet as a Seawolf. I find it hard to believe that a boat built about ten years later would, or would be allowed to be, louder than a ten year old boat. I guess it would depend on the US Navy's perception of opposing navies' increase, or lack thereof, in their capabilities.

In terms of the game, it's pretty close to splitting hairs. Seawolf and Virginia are both pretty great to play as.

Why do you have Trafalgar ahead of LA III? Spearfish?

[p7p8]

Why do you have Trafalgar ahead of LA III? Spearfish?
Spearfish aren't so good as it looks on paper:
Only 2 speed/range settings:

35 nmi at 29 kts
12.5 at speed form 30 to 70 kts

For chasing Akula 29 kts is not enough
Also 12.5 nmi of range is little too short for engaging fast SSN's

In my opinion Trafalgar is very close to LA but:
- have 5 tubes
- CM system like in seawolf class


Btw this tier table was made for fun and for opennig discussion. It could be some advice for unexperienced MP mission designers.

[tAKticool47]

The Spearfish is perhaps the one competitor for the MK48 CBASS as the best torpedo in the world.

The game does not model the ability to change torpedo speeds via the wire or via the internal CPU & search/attack algorithms, but in real life they are very important to torpedo attacks and doctrine.

The Spearfish is employed in a "stealth" mode by slowly traveling the first 10-20 miles at low-speed, then it attempts to detect it's target, and once it actually acquires a target, it will increase it's speed and commence the attack. That is another feature of torpedoes that is important but the game doesn't model- the torpedoes search for targets and report via wire to the operator. So the guy at the console will know precisely , for example, that the torpedo has begun a passive search... the torpedo has detected a target.... the torpedo has gone active to range-gate the target... the torpedo has calculated an intercept course and is proceeding into attack model... the torpedo has increased speed and is maneuvering into terminal attack, etc.

And of course it's important to note that torpedoes can be pre-loaded with an attack plan (and it can be comprehensive, an extensive set of instructions and commands) and you can cut the wire immediately and let it do it's thing, or you can constantly adjust it on the fly, and when the wire is cut, it will complete it's last assigned mission- but the newer torpedoes have so much higher processing power than even 10-20 years ago, they can conduct advanced search patterns and run through complicated countermeasure algorithms, active & passive sound frequencies, etc.



As for the Virginia-class, I am quite certain it's actually quieter than Seawolf at slow speeds. Virginia was designed to be the slowest, creepy-crawliest submarine out there vs. Seawolf being the fastest, run-n-gun attacker. SSN-774s have an entire system for "crawling" along the bottom of the ocean in coastal areas so they can sneak up as close (and shallow) as possible, deploying UUVs and drones and SEALs etc.

Plus, I realize that it's probably fair to say the Seawolf has "more firepower" but in a certain respect, SSN-774s can be considered more. In a strike mission, a Seawolf can unleash an 8-tube volley, whereas a 774 can fire a 16-missile volley of Tomahawks (12+4). This can be tremendously important in a one-and-done, gotta run mission. Seawolf was designed to go out and hunt Soviet SSBNs and their SSN escorts, and if WWIII broke out, they'd possibly be out there on a war patrol for 3 months, so having 50 torpedoes on board and being able to shoot multiple torpedoes at multiple targets at the same time was considered very important. The SSN-774 platform was designed to be "multi-mission" but specifically emphasized strike warfare, SOF capability, and ISR. It would be much easier to sneak up to a Russian base or North Korean coast in a 774 than a Seawolf.



Now as far as speeds... I know that Seawolf was so fast during trials, the designers didn't believe it. It's clearly demonstrated on the documentary from the 90s that the civilian personnel wouldn't believe how fast Seawolf was until they saw it themselves, because it "blew away" their calculations. As far as the SSN-774s, they were designed with the belief that speed was not as important as stealth, silencing, sonar improvements, etc. Generally the only time a sub is going to run at flank speeds is when they're en route or returning from their waterspace assignments ( a lot of people don't know that the Navy regulates the waters like ATCs regulate the airways... submarines are directed into specific missions via specific waterspace assignments with precise routing. Then they'll own the waters around them unless otherwise directed. The only exception is SSBNs, who get assigned large areas where the CO gets to decide where to go within it, and this is for obvious strategic security concerns.)

So to me , the SSN-774s should be very high on the list. As much as I love the Seawolf (and especially in the game) -- there are many missions in the real-world where I'd rather have a 774.

[Wolfcat]

RA mod is great in many aspects, but it is really really Russian biased. I am not the only one who holds this opinion. Just look at those SAM's, Russian's are more or less close to their real life's speed, but the American ones are just as fast as jet fighters. That's why I have deleted RA.

[p7p8]

Ok, for the same reason you should delete vanilla DW because it's really really really (1 "really" more) USA biased :P

BTW SAM's lower speed is only for AI ships - and 90% MP scenarios is builded without any AI strong warships (only LPD LST) so decission about deleting RA is little weird for me :D

[Wolfcat]

An Aug 2009 report from the U.S. Office of naval Intelligence estimated Yasen-class attack sub to be the quietest and least detectable of all contemporaneous Russian and Chinese subs (that includes ALL Akula variants). However, Seawolf and VA classes are still quieter than it on a comfortable margin. Now in RA, Akula III is way better than VA. If this is not Russian bias in a blatant contradiction to reality then I don't know what it is then.

[Izgud]

This Virginia poster hanging inside an Akula may interest some of you:
https://i.imgur.com/xx1fJKF.jpg
https://youtu.be/7L8pKSfJc88?t=195
(3:15 if timestamp doesn't work)

Can anybody make out what it says next to the '34'? Perhaps the napkin math wasn't so far off after all.

[VulcanRidr]

Virginia top speed is probably very close to value from RA (info from player who serve onboard real Virginia class) - i assume its less than 30 kts or not more than 30 kts.

Btw tiers table were made for RA 1.45 - not for real submarines

In my opinion Seawolf is much better than Virginia because have greater maximum and tactical speed and much greater firepower (and only noticable less sensitive sensors).


Glad to see someone modeling more modern boats for this sim.



Do they model the Seawolf with the 768mm "swimout" torpedo tubes that didn't require compressed air to fire a 533mm Mk48? Did that even come to fruition? I remember reading about it years ago, before she was comissioned.

[FPSchazly]

Glad to see someone modeling more modern boats for this sim.



Do they model the Seawolf with the 768mm "swimout" torpedo tubes that didn't require compressed air to fire a 533mm Mk48? Did that even come to fruition? I remember reading about it years ago, before she was comissioned.


Someone in the Cold Waters board said this was more or less a myth. He said MK48s won't start unless they're ejected.

[Razoleg]

An Aug 2009 report from the U.S. Office of naval Intelligence estimated Yasen-class attack sub to be the quietest and least detectable of all contemporaneous Russian and Chinese subs (that includes ALL Akula variants). However, Seawolf and VA classes are still quieter than it on a comfortable margin. Now in RA, Akula III is way better than VA. If this is not Russian bias in a blatant contradiction to reality then I don't know what it is then.


Maybe your super-duper secret sources and Discovery Channel "documentaries" are wrong?


I always see this across many games and platforms. As soon as the game is not so biased towards US that it's an arcade, everyone starts crying "Russian Bias". Especially in Air Sims.



Yet, I don't remember Sonalysts ever implementing a night vision on Kilo or, for that matter, even an anti-ship missile that it carries by default. It's just a reskinned Gato class (in some aspects, it feels like a Sugarboat).


DW is cringeworthy "sim" that is really a product placement for US subs. Everything else in there, like the ability to play Russian subs, was made because that was "cool" back in the day in sims. And of course they even got the words the crew says wrong, no such word as "Yesta" in Russian at all. Not to mention the horrible accents.



However, RA is quite balanced, all things considered. And yes, sometimes the US navy devolves its armaments because the Cold War is over (despite what the US media and government thinks on the subject), so you don't need to build quiter, more expensive subs.



A prime example of this is A-10 being replaced by piston-eingine Super Toucano. It got too expensive to manufacture more advanced subs once our Navy stopped making new boats. Even VA class was cut down in terms of numbers ordered.


Maybe, just maybe, most of you guys should understand that "sim" means simulating reali life, where the US is far from best, at least in sub warfare? ;)
If not, perhaps Comanche 4 and Cold Waters is more down your alley.