Carrier Ops

[Wolfcat]

Hi, I am trying to create a mission where a US carrier group in transit against a screen of Russian sub threats. How do I get the carrier to launch and recover aircraft? I know how to set up air stations, but it seems those aircraft on station don't know how to fly back to the carrier and would crash to death after running out of fuel. Also, the carrier wouldn't relaunch new aircraft to replenish those fighters on station. Lastly, the escorting Perry frigate would not launch ASW helos even after sub threat is identified.

[ET2SN]

Start by going into into your mission editor and check the ROE status.
Platforms won't attack anything if ROE Peacetime is set or all the units are on the same side. :up:

Each platform has to have something to track and attack.
This can get involved and may require scripts. You may want to find a similar type of scenario in an existing mission or campaign and "take it apart" in your mission editor to see what the author did.

[FPSchazly]

If you click the carrier, you can an inflight airstation from the carrier's properties. You can also add planes in flight that are tied to the carrier and have a specific launch time. I'm sure those planes with a specific launch time could be modified to be launched based on some trigger being fired.

[Wolfcat]

Thanks, FPS. BTW, I have enjoyed your utube videos a lot, both DW and CW ones. :Kaleun_Cheers:

[FPSchazly]

:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up::Kaleun_Cheers:

[p7p8]

Each platform has to have something to track and attack.
This can get involved and may require scripts. You may want to find a similar type of scenario in an existing mission or campaign and "take it apart" in your mission editor to see what the author did.
:haha: - only in ET2SN world (he have secret version of DW - nobody have the same. In this version all works different) :har:

In Dangeorus waters vanilla, RA or LwAmi you dont need to set track or attack fer every platform. AI can do it without any scripts

As FPSchazzly wrote - right click on Aircraft carrier allows you to set "flight schedule" 5, 15 or 30 mins

https://i.imgur.com/RzDafc0.gif


Look at this interesting options:

https://i.imgur.com/1O0R4Jk.gif


Most important is.... to set wind speed zero area where CVN operate. Its because every ship with helos or aircraft just before launch change own course in direction opposed to wind. Its very annoying because if CVN is leader of group all ships will follow leader.
Launching/landing takes time and your all group doesnt follow programmed wayponts in this time. Sometimes all CVN TF can run aground :P


Btw scenarios with large number of aircrafts are unstable - especially in MP games.

Best option for "fabular" missions is to place aircraft carrier without any aircrafts and just script (with triggers) when to create specific aircrafts

Trigger "destination" and create object should be enough for good scripting.


P.S. wind direction can change course of ALL WARSHIPS - with helo hangar. Best way for preventing weird course changing is to set empty hangar loadout for each ships.

[Wolfcat]

Thanks, P7P8. But what about air stations? I don't see anywhere under air stations to refresh station. Or add inflight is better choice than add airstations?

[p7p8]

Air station can move relative with constant range/bearing with CVN - its good for Helo ASW. Aircraft on "airstation" will will be changed for another one after
low fuel but i still prefer to use triggers and scripts - it gives better control over CVN and aircrafts.

In DW aircrafts works bad. RA improves this aspect of game (a little) but they still can crash into water after time or do something stupid.

Try to make simple scenario for test - you will see what im talking about :)

Personally I wouludn't make this "screen/escort" mission with CVN because it involves big support and big troubles in controling this huge TF. You should consider to make LSD/LST/LPD group as highly value ships (I recommend ships without helos or with option empty hangars)
Aircraft may come from land bases - its easier.

[ET2SN]

Wolfcat, it sounds like you're talking about a game called Jane's Fleet Command. Check into it if you haven't already. :03:

FC and and DW are based on very similar game platforms. But, DW is set up more for a single unit command while FC is all about driving a surface fleet. The focus of the two games are different. You may find answers in FC's mission editor BUT they might not apply to DW. :hmmm:

And don't worry about p7p8, he barks a lot. :haha:

[Wolfcat]

It's all good. I am just taking this opportunity to learn to become a better mission builder. I am kinda new to this editor thing.

The reason I need use aircraft in my mission is that the Russian UGM missiles are so powerful and surface ships and their weapons are so stupid and bad. 2 Oscar II's can take out an entire CVNG (5 VLS escorts). It makes the game extremely unbalanced. Only when I have 4 fighters on station would I be able to make my CVNG survivable.

We all know that using player subs to do ASW takes time. You need first approach, detect and then work out your solutions. And a 55kt torp takes more time to close with the target. By the time you are close to kill the Oscars, they have already killed the entire CVNG.

[p7p8]

And don't worry about p7p8, he barks a lot. :haha:
yeah, right - I've made over 50 scenarios and active DW MP community in 95% plays my missions. And You @ET2SN can only give bunch of inaccurate advices based definitely NOT on Dangerous Waters game (clear or with mods) but on your suspicious and hypothesis.

@Wolfcat
The reason I need use aircraft in my mission is that the Russian UGM missiles are so powerful and surface ships and their weapons are so stupid and bad. 2 Oscar II's can take out an entire CVNG (5 VLS escorts). It makes the game extremely unbalanced. Only when I have 4 fighters on station would I be able to make my CVNG survivable.

Ok, but placing CVN doesn't make this mission more attractive to players or easier for designing.

You can make NATO TF without CVN's, for example Harpers Ferry LST, Newport LST (and more allied ships) passing through good for ambush area (strait, small istands) with ait support from land based airfields (with airstations).
It will be less complicated and far more interesting than meeting in the middle of nowhere :)

Large formations often colide/crash between themself during torpedo/ASM evasion and you cannot prevent this.

CVN during aircraft launch can go 30 minutes in totally random direction with all rest warships in group - trust me - you don't want to observe this :)


BTW - if you think ASMs/antimissile defence works bad - just remove SSGN's as opponent :)

[Wolfcat]

I am building a new campaign featuring CVNG escorting scenarios. That's why I have CVN in there. I can replace SSGN with Akulas, but they carry UGMs too. It's not the platform problem. It's the UGM so OP as now. It's fast, powerful and has CMs too. I mean if VLS ships can launch proper amount of missiles then UGMs might not be as much a problem. I mean come on. When you see a group of 8 missiles coming at, you only launch 2-3 sm-2's half-heartedly? I remember the standard procedure for Aegis is to launch at least 2 missiles at each missile type target. But currently, that's not the case.

Actually, if you look at Kirov in current version, you will see a huge difference compared to Arleigh and Ticonder. I put 2 OscarII's against a single Kirov. It can pretty much blast all UGMs out of the sky even including the CMs dropped by the missile. It can fire off a barrage of SAMs like a true VLS ship.

[p7p8]

You want to make campaign and you ask for elementary things?

In my opinion you should make single mission first. Scenario with CVN group is not simple to create. Placing ship in formation is not enough - you should make some triggers and scripts because big formations and ships with helos/aircrafts may causes many troubles.

I recomend using triggers for simulation fighters launching (via create group trigger)

I can halp you with scenario but campaign is too complicated for me :(

[FPSchazly]

The type of Aegis behavior one might expect really just isn't programmed into the game. Unfortunately, it's truly just beyond the scope of the game. All the controllable platforms in Dangerous Waters are primarily ASW assets. You'll probably have better luck simulating this kind of thing with CMANO or Fleet Command or Harpoon, something with a much larger scope of naval warfare.

[Wolfcat]

You want to make campaign and you ask for elementary things?

In my opinion you should make single mission first. Scenario with CVN group is not simple to create. Placing ship in formation is not enough - you should make some triggers and scripts because big formations and ships with helos/aircrafts may causes many troubles.

I recomend using triggers for simulation fighters launching (via create group trigger)

I can halp you with scenario but campaign is too complicated for me :(

Sure. That'll be great to use some helps on scenarios. I mean campaign is nothing more than a collection of individual scenarios. The only extra thing is you have all these goal triggers that can be used in the next mission.

[Wolfcat]

The type of Aegis behavior one might expect really just isn't programmed into the game. Unfortunately, it's truly just beyond the scope of the game. All the controllable platforms in Dangerous Waters are primarily ASW assets. You'll probably have better luck simulating this kind of thing with CMANO or Fleet Command or Harpoon, something with a much larger scope of naval warfare.

I agree that full Aegis behavior is beyond this game. But at least get some basic things right. For instance, in current v1.45, SM-2's Max speed is mach 2.5 according to the in-game reference. Mach 2.5? Are you kidding me? A su-27's top speed is Mach 2.35. It's practically useless.

What makes the matter worse is that the actual in-battle speed is even lower. The missile could only fly at 950 kts, which is mach 1.42 and even slower than some of the cruise missiles.

But if you look at some of the Russian SAM's, most of them are in mach3 or even Mach4-5 range.

That's a real difference.

[p7p8]

For me you should bind some things between scenarios.
For example: if one warship from CVN group will be destroyed should not appear in next mission. Its possible but may complicate triggers in campaign scenarios

[ET2SN]

I agree that full Aegis behavior is beyond this game. But at least get some basic things right. For instance, in current v1.45, SM-2's Max speed is mach 2.5 according to the in-game reference. Mach 2.5? Are you kidding me? A su-27's top speed is Mach 2.35. It's practically useless.

What makes the matter worse is that the actual in-battle speed is even lower. The missile could only fly at 950 kts, which is mach 1.42 and even slower than some of the cruise missiles.

But if you look at some of the Russian SAM's, most of them are in mach3 or even Mach4-5 range.

That's a real difference.

Don't get too hung up on "book values". They don't tell the whole story. :03:
If a missile is turning or changing attitude its going to lose speed. :up:

DW started out as a submarine game, the frigates and P3's kinda got bolted onto it. In that manner, there are a lot of things it gets right but there are also some things which needed to get bent a bit.

BTW, before anyone gets upset, let me explain what I mean about "book numbers" with an example- the SR-71.

The "book numbers" claim the SR-71 had a top speed of Mach 3+. Some books will claim a top speed of Mach 3.2 or Mach 3.3 with a dash speed of Mach 3.5. Or, the books will say the SR-71 had a top speed of 1,500 MPH.

Go on Youtube and find some SR-71 pilot interviews. All of them will say the SR-71 had a top speed of 450 knots (indicated air speed).

No one is lying. All of the numbers are accurate. How is it possible?

[p7p8]

Don't get too hung up on "book values". They don't tell the whole story. :03:
If a missile is turning or changing attitude its going to lose speed. :up:

DW started out as a submarine game, the frigates and P3's kinda got bolted onto it. In that manner, there are a lot of things it gets right but there are also some things which needed to get bent a bit.
Totally agree with you :salute:

[tAKticool47]

I wanted to chime in because I have done an extensive amount of "Carrier Ops" playing with US and NATO/Allied-based carriers. I have learned a few things i figured I could share. ... however I admit I am not really good at all at triggers or scripts so I am fairly limited in my playing-programming but that's fine with me, it's still fun.


One thing is, p7p8 is damn right about the windspeed and crashes. Naturally when you are using a carrier, particularly a US carrier, you build a battle group right? And attach the other units etc? Lets say you set it at 30 knots.... whenever it wants to launch a plane, it turns into the wind, and slows down to 3 knots. This causes all sorts of formation problems and crashes. I mean I have lost a ton of escorts to self-crashes because of it. I think p7p8 had a great solution in naming a different ship as the leader.

Also... if you put a plane on deck at "Ready 5" , I have noticed, it will NEVER LAUNCH. For some reason, at least with me, all the Ready 5 planes just sit there. The solution I have come up with is to put all types at Ready 15 (and 30) and let it spin up planes on it's own. It will regularly spin up F-14s and F-18s, S-3s and sometimes a Prowler. However, I have noticed it has never once spun up/launched an E-2 or ES-3 ... and it has never launched a helo. Even if you put them on deck, never does it. The solution for me is to set an E-2 and an ES-3 to have a launch time of 1 minute. Then I usually let the computer handle flight ops. HOWEVER, there is a real fault here- It will always pick default weapons loadouts. It always puts the F-14 & F-18 at AAW loadouts, but if you make them in-flight aircraft, you can pick ASuW or Strike, and they become very formidable platforms (the F-14 with a pair of Mk84 JDAMs and the F-18 with All kinds of stuff.). The downside is, it can take you an hour to set up In-Flight CAPs and Flight-Launch-Timed planes by itself.


The other thing is, there are some pretty awesome planes in the USAF that obviously don't use the carrier. The F-16s are great and have a great ability in the game -- and the F-15E is just incredible. It's either an absolutely stacked AAW platform or a ridiculous bomb truck capable of ~1500kts as a ASuW platform. The F-111 is pretty awesome as well, will shoot it's guns after it launches everything for an hour. The F-117 is kind of useless, it carries 2 JSoW and goes 500 kts and is not "stealth" in the game. And as I have said before, the F-22 is useless. Dies immediately every game, every situation. I however like to set up the EW version of the C-130 and the EP-3 ELINT planes on perimeter routes sniffing the border of battles and if you have an Ohio-class SSGN in the water, you can add the Sub COMMO C-130 version to give it firing data. It's pretty awesome when it decides to lay it's 150 TASM eggs.

I have also built Cold War/Red Storm Rising-style battle groups with Kitty Hawk &/ Forrestal-class CVs, and period escorts like Virginia-class CGNs, an original Ticonderoga, sometimes a Spruance DDG, usually a FF-1052-class & FFG-7 class frigate (i'll usually command the FFG-7) and either another CG/CGN or DD/DDG ... sometimes even a BB (because those 16" guns will fire when in range, it's awesome.) it can be a lot of fun to play these scenarios, with a Sturgeon or LA FLT I/II etc. but if you make the opposition too good, the Soviet stuff will merck you, so you have to plan accordingly. Can't use the Kuznetsov, not even close to fair, but Moskva and Kiev can work.

[p7p8]

I think p7p8 had a great solution in naming a different ship as the leader.

+"wind region" with wind speed 0

[tAKticool47]

So I saw something half-extraordinary yesterday and felt like sharing --- involving flight ops.

I made a small test mission to mess around with, based on what the US calls "Amphibious Ready Groups" ... a Wasp-class LHD, a Harpers Ferry-class LSD, and because there are no American LPDs in the game, I used a UK LPD (is it Fearless-class maybe?) ... and because I was putting a handful of Russian surface and subsurface opponents, I added an Arleigh Burke FLT-I and a FFG-7 to play with to the ARG. So LHD, LPD, LSD, DDG, FFG.

Apparently the British LPD has some choppers. During the course of the "war", the British LPD AI decided to launch 2 of their helos. They flew around a little, and shortly after, the Russian FFGs & CG missiled it and it died.

THEN , THE TWO UK HELOS GO INTO A HOLDING PATTERN AROUND THE HARPERS FERRY LSD. One of them starts circling while the other one comes in for a landing, and lands perfectly. And I am amazing that it not only TRIED to land, but actually lands!

And then it blows up.

And right on cue, after it miraculously blows up, the second UK Helo comes in for a landing, lands perfectly again.

And then it blows up also.




I had never seen something like that before. And it would have been amazing had they not actually blown up upon landing.

Just thought I'd share.

[p7p8]

Check Fearless page 3/4 - there is hangar loadout. change default (4x Seakings) to loadout 1 (none)

All AI ships with any helos/aircrafts onboard makes troubles in scenarios. Better remove all and make is via scripts/triggers

[tAKticool47]

p7p8 I'm not mad, I wasn't complaining, I thought it was awesome actually.


I like using the aircraft, it's a nice feature of the game for me.

But I just thought it was cool to see in a way.

[FPSchazly]

THEN , THE TWO UK HELOS GO INTO A HOLDING PATTERN AROUND THE HARPERS FERRY LSD. One of them starts circling while the other one comes in for a landing, and lands perfectly. And I am amazing that it not only TRIED to land, but actually lands!

And then it blows up.

:har::har:

Thank you for making me laugh out loud at work :D