Disgraceful verdict' in pier shooting

[Gerald]

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — The Latest on the trial of a Mexican man in a killing on a San Francisco pier (all times local):
7:45 p.m.
President Donald Trump says there was a "disgraceful verdict" after a Mexican man was found not guilty of murder in a high-profile killing that touched off a fierce immigration debate.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-Mexican-man-found-not-guilty-in-pier-12396675.php

Note: Updated 12:28 am, Friday, December 1, 2017

[propbeanie]

So, they didn't "have the goods" on the dude? or was it the jury was tainted by local press? or was it a stretch to believe the prosecution's story?... From what I had read pre-trial, the guy appeared to be guilty as guilty can be... ??

[Buddahaid]

Not much to go on in the story but evidently the prosecution failed to make their case. What might be really described as disgraceful would be convicting a person without due process Mr. Trump.

[Aktungbby]

Police also wrapped his hands in paper bags to preserve any gunfire residue. But Garcia Zarate's attorney Matt Gonzalez revealed today that police found a very small amount on his hands.



"If the gun was wrapped in something, that would explain why there was very little gunshot residue if any that ended up in the defendant's hands," Gonzalez told reporters covering the trial. Garcia Zarate had said he found the stolen gun under a swivel chair on the pier, wrapped in a piece of cloth. When he examined it, the gun accidentally fired. The bullet ricocheted, hitting Steinle who was about 90 feet away from the suspect. Sorry but at (an excessive) ninety feet, a ricochet, and the 'startled look' attested to by an arresting officer simply doesn't add up to first degree (criminal intent required) murder. In a capital case, the state must meet its burden of proof and failed to do so. The verdict was not unexpected. The officer who allowed his weapon to be stolen and his agency should be heavily penalized but that is a civil matter. The Bureau of Land Management said the service weapon was stolen from the officer's vehicle on June 27. President Trump, then a contender for office, using the case as political hay for his immigration policy-San Francisco is a 'sanctuary city'- did not make matters easier.

[aanker]

I was disappointed but not surprised.

Trial of an 'illegal' immigrant arrested and deported several times (info was not brought up in the trial but it is 'common knowledge'). The trial was held in a sanctuary city in what is now a sanctuary state. He still could face up to 45 years according to reports I have heard.

[Buddahaid]

So an "illegal" is not deserving of a fair trial?

[Gargamel]

So an "illegal" is not deserving of a fair trial?

Of course not!

C'mon, where have you been the last couple years?

We all know that people not like us are not deserving of equal treatment? That they are scum and villany? Any excuse to demonize them will made in order to brainwash the ignorant!

Xenophobia Rules!

All hail Overlord Rathead!

[aanker]

So an "illegal" is not deserving of a fair trial?
Who said that? Didn't he get a fair trial? He was found not guilty of murdering her.

The fact that he was in CA illegally and had been deported several times had nothing to do with the outcome of the trial.

[Onkel Neal]

It had a lot to do with the killing, though.

[Mr Quatro]

President Trump is starting to show a pattern of being wrong on just about everything he tackles from NK to the border wall to health care to immigration to the NFL ... i hate to explain him, but I can see his frustration with this verdict supporting sanctuary cities. It's San Francisco that should be on trial ... that poor man was allowed to enter the country and reside in a safe city for illegals. He just happen to be shooting at seals with a stolen police gun and accidentally shot an innocent person. The jury acquitted him of murder which is the right decision, but the presidents frustration of sanctuary cities will linger on.


In the United States and Canada, a sanctuary city is a city that limits its cooperation with the national government effort to enforce immigration.

Here's a link to a map of sanctuary cities

https://cis.org/Map-Sanctuary-Cities-Counties-and-States

Sanctuary Cities List
States

California
Colorado
Illinois
New Mexico
Oregon
Vermont

Cities and Counties

California

Alameda County
Berkley
Contra Costa County
Los Angeles County
Los Angeles
Monterey County
Napa County
Orange County
Orange County
Riverside County
Sacramento County
San Bernardino County
San Diego County

San Francisco
San Francisco County
San Mateo County
Santa Ana
Santa Clara County
Santa Cruz County
Sonoma County
Watsonville

Colorado

Arapahoe County
Aurora
Boulder County
Denver
Denver County
Garfield County
Grand County
Jefferson County
Larimer County
Mesa County
Pitkin County
Pueblo County
Routt County
San Miguel County
Weld County

Connecticut

East Haven
Hartford

District Of Columbia

Washington

Florida

Alachua County
Clay County
Hernando County
West Palm Beach

Georgia

Clayton County
DeKalb County

Iowa

Benton County
Cass County
Franklin County
Fremont County
Greene County
Ida County
Iowa City
Iowa City, Johnson County
Jefferson County
Marion County
Monona County
Montgomery County
Pottawattamie County
Sioux County

Illinois

Chicago
Cook County

Kansas

Butler County
Harvey County
Sedgwick County
Shawnee County

Kentucky

Louisville

Louisiana

New Orleans

Massachusetts

Amherst
Boston
Cambridge
Lawrence
Northhampton
Somerville

Maryland

Baltimore
Montgomery County
Prince George's County

Minnesota

Hennepin County

Mississippi

Jackson

Nebraska

Hall County
Sarpy County

New Jersey

Middlesex County
Newark
Ocean County
Union County

New Mexico

Bernalillo County
New Mexico County Jails
San Miguel

Nevada

Washoe County

New York

Albany
Franklin County
Ithaca
Nassau County
New York City
Omondaga County
St. Lawrence County
Wayne County

Oregon

Baker County
Clackamas County
Clatsop County
Coos County
Crook County
Curry County
Deschutes County
Douglas County
Gilliam County
Grant County
Hood River County
Jackson County
Jefferson County
Josephine County
Lane Countyn
Lincoln County
Linn County
Malheur County
Marion County
Marlon County
Multnomah County
Polk County
Sherman County
Springfield
Tillamok County
Umatilla County
Union County
Wallowa County
Wasco County
Washington County
Wheeler County
Yamhill County

Pennsylvania

Bradford County
Bucks County
Butler County
Chester County
Clarion County
Delaware County
Eerie County
Franklin County
Lebanon County
Lehigh County
Lycoming County
Montgomery County
Montour County
Perry County
Philadelphia
Pike County
Westmoreland County

Rhode Island

Providence, Rhode Island
Rhode Island Department of Corrections

Texas

Dallas County
Travis County

Virginia

Arlington County
Chesterfield County

Vermont

Burlington
Monteplier
Winooski

Washington

Chelan County
Clallam County
Clark County
Cowlitz County
Franklin County
Jefferson County
King County
Kitsap County
Pierce County
San Juan County
Skagit County
Snohomish County
Spokane County
Seattle
Thurston County
Walla Walla County
Wallowa County
Whatcom County
Yakima County

[Platapus]

Since I was not on the jury and did not have access to the evidence, I can't opine on the decision of the Jury.

With the illegal entry and the firearm possession charge, he will be spending some time in the poky and then will be deported.

The real problem is how to keep this guy from once again entering the US.

[August]

The real problem is how to keep this guy from once again entering the US.

What like a border wall? :)

Short of that we're never going to keep people like this guy out as long as he's being offered safe haven. The people that create these sanctuary city policies are the real murderers here.

[Buddahaid]

No, the people that let their firearms get stolen are at higher responsibility.

[aanker]

Yes, a border wall and crack down on the illegal sanctuary cities, county's & states.

Anyway, the DOJ filed charges in 2015 and has just announced that he will be picked up and face those Federal charges in a Texas court.... hopefully not in a TX sanctuary city... err county (just checked the list above).

[August]

No, the people that let their firearms get stolen are at higher responsibility.

When they're a professional and supposed to be trained to know better you betcha.

[Onkel Neal]

The people that create these sanctuary city policies are the real murderers here.

The people that let their firearms get stolen are at higher responsibility.

I would say these items are at the top of the list.

[Buddahaid]

The point I'm trying to make is it could have been nearly anybody who found and accidentally discharged the weapon. Somebody's kid, a tourist, a homeless person, your mom, etc. Sanctuary city, or not, has little bearing on it save to act as political fodder.

[Aktungbby]

No, the people that let their firearms get stolen are at higher responsibility.

I would say these items are at the top of the list.
THE ABSOLUTE TOP OF THE LIST! A professional officer never lets his weapon be stolen under any circumstances. Neither by being incapacitated or by being assaulted by several antagonists seeking just the weapon; EXAMPLE: several Federal guards in Social Security offices have suffered this and it is always foreseeable and preventable...even if you have to handcuff the weapon to your wrist to prevent the theft which will create an unpardonable danger to the public you are sworn (or least morally obligated) to protect or at least not endanger by your careless misconduct. The privilege to bear arms for a living is an immense one either in open or concealed carry, and 'weapon retention' consideration is the back-half of that equation. The more so as an officer's assets are subject to civil lawsuit if injury results. I hold the BLM officer primarily responsible. One does not leave a handgun locked in a vehicle in SF.

[vienna]

The point I'm trying to make is it could have been nearly anybody who found and accidentally discharged the weapon. Somebody's kid, a tourist, a homeless person, your mom, etc. Sanctuary city, or not, has little bearing on it save to act as political fodder.

Fully agreed. When you strip away all the political descriptives and grandstanding, you are left with pretty much what Buddahaid has stated. The prosecution had a very weak case for 1st degree murder, regardless of who was in possession of the firearm and the jury saw that; if you fail to prove and substantiate your case as a prosecutor, you will lose the verdict, pure and simple. What is an interesting note is the attorney defending is a Public Defender, a class of attorney very often maligned as being inadequate or, sometimes, even incompetent. The defendant didn't have a high-powered private lawyer or crusading ACLU-type counsel, just one of those 'second-rate' Public Defenders, the kind who often are the recipients of suits alleging inadequate defense by their clients. In this case, however, the Public Defender was more than up to the task:

http://www.statesman.com/news/man-acquitted-san-francisco-shooting-got-lucky-lawyer/D3iEyMML0d1gg1pfe8WsWP/

Hardly the stumbling novice lawyer stereotype so often seen in movies and TV shows; wonder how many big name law firms are lining up to offer this guy a high-paying job...

Neal, take note: Gonzalez is a Texan...








<O>

[em2nought]

In accordance with this thread I'm considering placing a booby trap in front of my gun safe. I'd rather be blamed for the death of a criminal than an innocent bystander.

A SIG that accidentally discharges? lmao

Too bad he didn't hit a seal, i'm pretty sure those wacky Californians place a higher value on a seal's life than a taxpayers. :03:

http://granitegrok.com/wp-content/uploads/2016-11-17-45c33161_large.jpg

[Platapus]

Were they able to determine, through forensic evidence, whether the bullet ricocheted or a straight line shot?
I know that the defense was claiming it was a ricochet and the prosecution was claiming it was a straight line shot

[Aktungbby]

^ yes! That's what settled the matter for me. You cannot have intent by ricochet at a distance of 90 feet with a weapon you have never handled.... that is factory calibrated for approx. 25 yards.....Manslaughter and wrongful discharge of the weapon- maybe- but not 1st degree murder. http://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Kate-Steinle-murder-trial-How-the-12399543.php (http://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Kate-Steinle-murder-trial-How-the-12399543.php) Much of the trial focused on the Sig Sauer pistol that fired the fatal shot. The weapon was stolen from a federal Bureau of Land Management agent’s car several days before the shooting. The defense called a weapons expert, who said that make of gun has a history of misfiring, while the prosecution maintained that it would be difficult to fire it unintentionally
To prove murder, Assistant District Attorney Diana Garcia needed to convince jurors that the round that killed Steinle had been fired intentionally. But this was a difficult task as the bullet first struck the pier’s concrete 12 to 15 feet from Garcia Zarate, then bounced and traveled 78 more feet to strike Steinle in the back as she strolled with her father.
“The evidence that Kate Steinle was killed with a ricochet shot, rather than a direct shot, makes it even tougher to prove to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that it was an intentional killing,” said attorney Jim Hammer, a former city prosecutor.
With no direct accounts from eyewitnesses or surveillance video showing Garcia Zarate’s actions during the shooting and in the moments just before, what remained were dueling conclusions drawn from circumstantial evidence.
And in California, the law on circumstantial evidence swings in the defense’s favor. Jurors are instructed that if they “can draw two or more reasonable conclusions from the circumstantial evidence, and one of those reasonable conclusions points to innocence and another to guilt, you must accept the one that points to innocence.” I'm hardly unsympathetic here; My only child is an attractive, spirited business woman with an MA, and I cannot imagine losing her to such an accident. I brood about this particular case as I and my family often visit Fisherman's Wharf and the Embarcadero to see the USS Pampanito, Liberty ship USS Jeremiah O'brien and dine.... Suddenly a shot rang out, Kate fell, and looked at me and said “Help me, Dad.” Those are the last words I will ever hear from my daughter.​

[Platapus]

It will be interesting to compare the reactions of this case to the other case where the "hunter" mistook a woman walking as a deer and shot at her at dusk at a distance of about 200 yards

[Steiger]

Too bad he didn't hit a seal, i'm pretty sure those wacky Californians place a higher value on a seal's life than a taxpayers. :03:


We have the world's 5th largest economy (we go back and forth with France) so we can afford it.

[Gargamel]

It will be interesting to compare the reactions of this case to the other case where the "hunter" mistook a woman walking as a deer and shot at her at dusk at a distance of about 200 yards

IIRC, while it still might have been 'dusk' by common parlance, I believe I read, by his own admission, he had taken the shot later than he was supposed to, after sunset.

While the woman probably should have realized hiking near dusk in an area that hunting occurs, is probably a bad idea, I can't lay any blame on her. The hunter should have been hunting during legal hours, identified his target, and anything behind.

[August]

It will be interesting to compare the reactions of this case to the other case where the "hunter" mistook a woman walking as a deer and shot at her at dusk at a distance of about 200 yards

You mean the one who used a pistol? That whole story stinks to high heaven. Nobody in their right mind attempts a 200 yard shot with a handgun. There is more to this than we know.

[em2nought]

We have the world's 5th largest economy (we go back and forth with France) so we can afford it.

For now. https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/63520-16-reasons-people-are-leaving-california-by-the-millions

[vienna]

For now. https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/63520-16-reasons-people-are-leaving-california-by-the-millions

The strange thing is, with all the flak directed towards CA, the state has done so well, economically, and in spite of all the 'anti-business' criticisms. It is true a good many people are leaving the state, but they are offset by newcomers from other states, seeking a better opportunity in employment, some who come here just because specific fields now in high demand, IT, advanced technology, etc., are either headquartered here or have a large physical presence in the state. For as long as I can remember, there have been dire warnings and predictions about CA collapsing and about how the future is bleak, yet, in the half century or so that I have been hearing all that, CA is still here and still strong, if not stronger. A lot of those people leaving are those who have found their specific fields eroded or extinct, not by virtue of 'over-taxing' or 'over-regulation', etc, but just because technology has rendered a lot of those field relatively unnecessary, a situation to be found in every other highly industrial/business state. For every person who lost their job because of factors beyond their control and who couldn't or wouldn't adapt to new technology, there is usually someone else coming in who does have the skills and adaptability need for CA current and future economy. I remember when the Great Recession hit how there were many people who had moved to the 'boom-town' of Las Vegas came scurrying back when the Vegas boom went bust. CA did take good-sized hit in the Great Recession, but weathered it pretty much better than almost all the states and is still pretty solid...

BTW, the link you supplied may be more than a bit biased: Charisma News is an evangelical christian-right web-zine and is very slanted against CA, a place they view as the epitome of sin; exaggeration and self-serving hyperbole to back up their 'truths' is not unknown to them...







<O>

[Buddahaid]

You mean the one who used a pistol? That whole story stinks to high heaven. Nobody in their right mind attempts a 200 yard shot with a handgun. There is more to this than we know.

Son, Oh Son Lyrics

It's up in the kitchen, down in the hall
I'll be lonely
Willy's the father of his sister's child
Down by the greenwood side
Took her down to the merry green wood
I'll be lonely
And there he shot his sister dead
Down by the greenwood side

He went back to his mother's home
Welcome to me my son my son
Son oh son, why are you so pale
Been down by the greenwood hunting quail

Ain't no quail a way down there
Been down there shooting the white tailed deer

Ain't no pistol kills a deer
Willy where's your sister fair?
Mother oh mother, make my bed
For I have shot my sister dead

Son oh son, where will you go?
Your father will kill you when he comes to know

He'll bury you under yon hill
If he doesn't kill you, I surely will

[Platapus]

You mean the one who used a pistol? That whole story stinks to high heaven. Nobody in their right mind attempts a 200 yard shot with a handgun. There is more to this than we know.

Rumour has it that he was using something like a TC Contender which is a handgun in only the most liberal definition.

But Still I agree, the guy was totally in the wrong. Rule zero is be sure of your target, Rule 1 know your background.

[Gargamel]

You mean the one who used a pistol? That whole story stinks to high heaven. Nobody in their right mind attempts a 200 yard shot with a handgun. There is more to this than we know.

I'd be curious to know what the accuracy rate for Olympic level shooters would be on a hand gun at that range.

[MaDef]

I'd be curious to know what the accuracy rate for Olympic level shooters would be on a hand gun at that range.
Elmer Kieth once killed a deer at 600 yds using a 6" S&W model 29. ;)

Olympians use specially built .22 pistols at 50m. most over the counter calibers drop about a foot over 100 yds. (estimation only, and fluctuates depending on specific ammo and pistol). a competent shooter should be able to hit a silhouette target at 100 yds about 50% of the time with open sights.

[Steiger]

For now. https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/63520-16-reasons-people-are-leaving-california-by-the-millions

That's not news, that's an opinion piece. Come on out to California and see what all the fuss is about. Surf, ski, hike in the mountains (and not those little hills that they have on the east coast, but honest-to-god mountains that rise above the treeline), hunt bear, live where it's hot, live where it's cold, live in the burbs or a big city or a farm, we've got it all. And when people cry "but it's full of liberals!" all that means is people are going to accept you for who you are. It's a great place.

[August]

(and not those little hills that they have on the east coast, but honest-to-god mountains that rise above the treeline

You mean like Mt. Washington in New Hampshire?

https://www.mountwashington.org/uploads/photos/photo-journal/b95c510802ac4376bd94457ad4604006.JPG

[Steiger]

You mean like Mt. Washington in New Hampshire?

https://www.mountwashington.org/uploads/photos/photo-journal/b95c510802ac4376bd94457ad4604006.JPG

Aww it's so cute. Look at that lil' feller!

[August]

Aww it's so cute. Look at that lil' feller!

Yeah note the greenery and lack of destructive forest fires. :)

[vienna]

Give it time; it happens to all forested areas eventually...

In the meantime Mt. Washington does have a reputation:


Mount Washington, New Hampshire: The Most Extreme Weather Observatory on Earth --

https://weather.com/science/weather-explainers/news/mount-washington-new-hampshire-observatory-extreme-weather


Kind of reminds me of a guy I used to work with who moved his entire family back east to NY after having gone through the 1971 Sylmar Quake (about 6.6 on the scale); about a year or so after he moved I ran into him in Downtown LA; I asked if he was visiting and he said, no, he and his family had moved back to LA; I asked what happened and he said there had been one of the worst blizzards in East Coast history during the winter he was there; I said "But, you were frightened by earthquakes." He replied "Yeah, but big quakes are pretty rare and blizzards are almost every year; besides, here in LA, I don't have to shovel away an earthquake every winter day"...

BTW, the current temperature here in LA, in December, is 74 Degrees F...

You guys enjoying your 40 Degree F. temps in Boston?... :D






<O>

[Steiger]

Yeah note the greenery and lack of destructive forest fires. :)

:Kaleun_Wink: This guy lol.

[August]

:Kaleun_Wink: This guy lol.

Alaskans are laughing at us both.

[vienna]

...and they can see Russia from their house... :D







<O>

[Gargamel]

You mean like Mt. Washington in New Hampshire?

https://www.mountwashington.org/uploads/photos/photo-journal/b95c510802ac4376bd94457ad4604006.JPG
Bah.... you can drive up there. Go to the 'daks for real East coast mountains. All the fun you could want in an alpine style situation, but without the lack of air.

[August]

Bah.... you can drive up there. Go to the 'daks for real East coast mountains. All the fun you could want in an alpine style situation, but without the lack of air.

Well that may be but the claim was that the east didn't have anything above the treeline. Our mountains may be short but we do have our pride. :)

[Aktungbby]

... but we do have our pride. :) Wha!!!!??? R U lion 2 us again! :D

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/a2/88/32/a28832e59cc610dfe82d96acc2de0f36--lion-pride-the-pride.jpg

[Steiger]

Well that may be but the claim was that the east didn't have anything above the treeline. Our mountains may be short but we do have our pride. :)

Yeah, I'm actually shocked your treeline is so low. 6,000 (that peak you showed) is just over half way to our treeline in PNW. Is that because your trees are mostly deciduous vs conifer we have in the west?

[vienna]

Reminds me of the movie, "The Englishman Who Went Up A Hill And Came Down A Mountain"...



http://ultraculture.co.uk/photobucket/3rd/ehm.png



Maybe, with all the remakes nowadays, there can be a US version, "The Bostonian Who Went Up A Hill And Came Down A Slightly Taller Hill"...








<O>

[August]

Yeah, I'm actually shocked your treeline is so low. 6,000 (that peak you showed) is just over half way to our treeline in PNW. Is that because your trees are mostly deciduous vs conifer we have in the west?

Maybe so. Climate might also have something to do with it. Here's a fall picture of Mount Monadnock (NH) at just 3100ft which also pokes above the treeline. You can see a garland of evergreen below the bald top which is mostly spruce but also long needle pine lower down with a lot of deciduous mixed in.


http://i0.wp.com/www.nephotographyguild.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Perkins-Pond-Mt-Monadnock.jpg?resize=633%2C466

[MaDef]

Maybe so. Climate might also have something to do with it. Here's a fall picture of Mount Monadnock (NH) at just 3100ft which also pokes above the treeline. You can see a garland of evergreen below the bald top which is mostly spruce but also long needle pine lower down with a lot of deciduous mixed in.


http://i0.wp.com/www.nephotographyguild.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Perkins-Pond-Mt-Monadnock.jpg?resize=633%2C466LOL, those of us that grew up in the Rockies call those foothills. :D

[Buddahaid]

Um....
http://www.newenglandwaterfalls.com/roadtrip2010pics/pic17.jpg

http://www.owensvalleyhistory.com/chrysler_n_cook_days/mt_whitney.jpg

[vienna]

Buddahaid beat me to it... :salute:







<O>

[Steiger]

http://thebackcountry.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Tall4.jpg

[vienna]

Comparison:

List of New England Hundred Highest --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_England_Hundred_Highest

(Not seeing Massachusetts on the list: had to go out of state to find a mountain?...)...


California’s 100 Highest Mountains --

http://www.vulgarianramblers.org/ca_100.php


Hmm, California's 100th highest mountain is nearly 7,000 feet higher than New England's highest peak ... :hmmm: :D








<O>

[u crank]

Is this one of those things where we see whose is the biggest? Jeez I hope not. :har:

[vienna]

Naw, its a case of trying to make mountains out of molehills... :03:







<O>

[Gerald]

Is this one of those things where we see whose is the biggest? Jeez I hope not. :har::03:

[Jimbuna]

Is this one of those things where we see whose is the biggest? Jeez I hope not. :har:

Naw, its a case of trying to make mountains out of molehills... :03:


<O>

:hmmm:

:)

[Steiger]

Naw, its a case of trying to make mountains out of molehills... :03:


:D

Well done!

[vienna]

Even I have my moments... :D







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