Why am I the only ship in the war?

[Delfi]

Isn't it time to get rid of this "game mechanic"? Where is the rest of the navy? Sitting on their asses in port? There needs to be a mod to add friendly taskforces and subs.



And the torpedo spam. Oh god the torpedo spam!

[XenonSurf]

This is a good point, Delfi. Today's tactics appeal for group manoeuvres rather than 'Lone Wolf' tactics. A single unit has little chance to succeed against a horde of enemies. Some kind of missions are the exception like Navy Seals or infiltration operations, but when it comes to battle against warships or other assets then a single sub cannot do miracles in the real world. If they could, then warships would be rather futile, isn't it?

What do you mean by 'torpedo spam' ?

[Delfi]

This is especially true for the Russians. In game the AI Russians run wolfpack tactics, but when I play them I am a lone Oscar. A lone SSGN tends to get dead fast. I get that the USN aggressively prosecutes sub contacts, but it would be nice if there was another sub for them to shoot at, too. You could even have cooperative multiplayer campaigns based around the Soviet wolfpack.

Though I supposed you would get hilarious combinations like a Kilo paired with a Typhoon.

[Delfi]

By torpedo spam I mean playing with the Russian sub mod I have had upwards of eight torpedoes at a time dropped on me.

[Orffen]

One of the issues is that the Russian sub mod is only a mod - the base game isn't designed around a Russian campaign or Russian tactics.

I always assumed the reason I was the only friendly asset on the map (besides aircraft/satellites) is because US Sub doctrine (as far as I know) doesn't use wolfpacks - or didn't during the periods modeled.

Even if there are other subs in-theatre, we aren't coordinating missions.

Then again, it could all just be concessions to gameplay; if my allies got the war done for me it wouldn't be much of an experience for me. Likewise if I only ever came up against lone subs, that wouldn't be particularly challenging compared to the wolfpack/convoy/bastion missions. :hmmm:

[XenonSurf]

The 'new content' that the devs have announced is talking about neutral ships added, but their role will be just a decor I think. Of course it's for gameplay reasons that there are no friendly assets in the game, such assets would add great additional missions to carry out, like comming in time to protect friendly ships, salvage operations, coordinated attacks etc. This would mean a LOT of additional work for the gamemakers, also the need to add ship-to-ship sea battles, something like in 'Atlantic Fleet' but in real-time.

Currently you see the friendly assets only in abstract with the report messages after your actions. But in CW you are just a piece of the war, your actions do influence the war outcome, but not to such a big extent like in Red Storm Rising.

[Delgard]

I was hoping to see what an escort mission would be like. Missiles would be tough to deal with, but running picket can probably be possible.

[GoldenRivet]

I always assumed the reason I was the only friendly asset on the map (besides aircraft/satellites) is because US Sub doctrine (as far as I know) doesn't use wolfpacks - or didn't during the periods modeled

while true on the point of wolfpack tactics - i will have to point out that one of the leading uses for Submarines in the 1980s campaign would have been screening the carrier task force.

Lets face it, in either conflict of the two presented (1968 and 1984) Aircraft Carriers would have played a major role.

additionally, convoys would have played a major role just as they did in WW2, given of course that many assets could be airlifted from the US East Coast to bases almost anywhere on earth by air, but not entirely so.

so where are they? thats a good question

i suppose the campaign map isnt dotted with friendly units simply because the Dev team didnt want the player interrupted every 90 seconds with the "we have a sound contact!" screen forcing you into 3D play with the options "review XO Orders" "All hands man battle stations" or "review orders"

probably a better way to do this is to change up the options

"We have a new sonar contact! bearing 045!" screen comes up and there should be a 4th option

"All hands man battle stations"
"review XO orders"
"review brief"

and where it says "close to:" and you can select 10K 15K 20K or 25K yards, they need to add "evade contact"

various factors like water depth in the map area, what kind of contact it is (which you dont know at this point) whether it is friendly or enemy etc would then determine whether or not you could evade them. with high enough odds that you could sneak away based on that above data you would then either be returned to the map screen or thrust into combat.

this would prevent you from being forced into 3D world just to determine that it is a force of passing friendly ships.

another option would be to just show every single friendly group on the map 100% of the time and you are only able to interact with them if they are near the same enemy force you are touching on the map.

make sense?

[Delgard]

At the Pier Pub! :03:

[Wiz33]

Isn't it time to get rid of this "game mechanic"? Where is the rest of the navy? Sitting on their asses in port? There needs to be a mod to add friendly taskforces and subs.



And the torpedo spam. Oh god the torpedo spam!

So you want it like the RSR novel where the Chicago managed 2 missions during the whole war?

[Wiz33]

By torpedo spam I mean playing with the Russian sub mod I have had upwards of eight torpedoes at a time dropped on me.

Well, talk to the Mod Devs then.

[GoldenRivet]

your actions do influence the war outcome, but not to such a big extent like in Red Storm Rising.

except when you get sunk

win 14 missions in a row, send 600,000 tons to the ocean floor... Russia in full retreat, denmark back in allied hands, russians run out of norway blah blah blah

then you get sunk on a seal insertion mission and Russia takes over the world.

:doh:

[Julhelm]

This is because it's when you die, you lose. You're not just any sub captain - you're the hero of the story, and when you fail, the bad guys ultimately win.

If you don't like this approach, you can edit out the offending 'death' events:

Go to StreamingAssets\default\campaign\campaign001\langu age_en\events

and find 'event_lost_at_sea' and change the following line:

NextAction=event_early_end_1

to

NextAction=END

Now when you die, it won't tell you that the Soviets took over the free world anymore.

[XenonSurf]

Yes, when your sub is sinking then it can be the end of the campaign. Essentially, you must 'Abandon' the sub in shallow waters and you get a chance to be assigned a new sub. Else you see flowers on the sea which means you and your crew have died, or even: you succeed leaving your sub but you get captured by the enemy which will also end the campaign.

As said by Julhelm above you can 'mod' this behavior with the scripted event files if you want.

[Delgard]

Thank-you for the tidbit on the scripting change. Need more of that.

Thanks!

[Delfi]

while true on the point of wolfpack tactics - i will have to point out that one of the leading uses for Submarines in the 1980s campaign would have been screening the carrier task force.

Lets face it, in either conflict of the two presented (1968 and 1984) Aircraft Carriers would have played a major role.

additionally, convoys would have played a major role just as they did in WW2, given of course that many assets could be airlifted from the US East Coast to bases almost anywhere on earth by air, but not entirely so.

so where are they? thats a good question

i suppose the campaign map isnt dotted with friendly units simply because the Dev team didnt want the player interrupted every 90 seconds with the "we have a sound contact!" screen forcing you into 3D play with the options "review XO Orders" "All hands man battle stations" or "review orders"

probably a better way to do this is to change up the options

"We have a new sonar contact! bearing 045!" screen comes up and there should be a 4th option

"All hands man battle stations"
"review XO orders"
"review brief"

and where it says "close to:" and you can select 10K 15K 20K or 25K yards, they need to add "evade contact"

various factors like water depth in the map area, what kind of contact it is (which you dont know at this point) whether it is friendly or enemy etc would then determine whether or not you could evade them. with high enough odds that you could sneak away based on that above data you would then either be returned to the map screen or thrust into combat.

this would prevent you from being forced into 3D world just to determine that it is a force of passing friendly ships.

another option would be to just show every single friendly group on the map 100% of the time and you are only able to interact with them if they are near the same enemy force you are touching on the map.

make sense?

Evade contact would make Seal Insertion/Blow the crap out of X port missions more bearable.

[Delfi]

So you want it like the RSR novel where the Chicago managed 2 missions during the whole war?

Those were two very tough missions. The focus of the novel was more on the Iceland "resistance" and the convoy escort. I'd imagine the Chicago did more than just that.

[Delgard]

Operating sectors were a lot smaller, I suspect. Just the GUIK...or the Berents Sea would have been individual sectors.

[Aramike]

Those were two very tough missions. The focus of the novel was more on the Iceland "resistance" and the convoy escort. I'd imagine the Chicago did more than just that.Not sure they did. IIRC, the Chicago's CO lamented that he was told to expect a target rich environment and his patrol area was fairly empty. In fact, in the novel the war was fairly short and the naval action was somewhat limited to convey escort, a wolfpack style cruise missile launch on Soviet airfields, and a drone attack that spoofed the American carrier task force into giving up their position.

[Delfi]

Not sure they did. IIRC, the Chicago's CO lamented that he was told to expect a target rich environment and his patrol area was fairly empty. In fact, in the novel the war was fairly short and the naval action was somewhat limited to convey escort, a wolfpack style cruise missile launch on Soviet airfields, and a drone attack that spoofed the American carrier task force into giving up their position.

Then you have Cold Waters where you sink more boats than the Soviets actually had in the Atlantic. My main complaint was more about the "Oh noes! We lost our only sub in the North Atlantic! Whatever will we do!?" type of ending where you die and the West surrenders outright. I like the death endings in Silent Hunter much more.

[Aramike]

Then you have Cold Waters where you sink more boats than the Soviets actually had in the Atlantic. My main complaint was more about the "Oh noes! We lost our only sub in the North Atlantic! Whatever will we do!?" type of ending where you die and the West surrenders outright. I like the death endings in Silent Hunter much more.Fair point. But you're dead - so immersion shouldn't really matter at that state except in the cold water tomb. :D