Practical torpedo evasion

[Barleyman]

Now that I've got a bit bored with the moderately arcadey Cold Waters I felt like going back to DW for a while. I got the DVD and printed manual.. Somewhere.. But I guess I might as well as buy the steam version instead of trying to locate the correct box in the garage.

So about torpedo evasion. I've seen the generic guides which more or less say to drop a noise maker and clear datum at an angle. Too bad you die that way. In CW you can see how difficult it is to evade a torpedo even when you have a perfect eye of God view of the situation. In DW you have none such unless you do a TMA on a live torpedo bearing down on you.. Good luck with that.

So, has someone made a guide on how to do it with what you have in the simulation? I presume you should work with the active intercept tool to determine if the torpedo is bearing right at you or veering to a side to go around a noise maker?

[ET2SN]

I just wanted to point out there are other options besides Steam.

https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Waters-Download-Pc/dp/B002XUKTUG/ref=pd_sbs_63_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=XTNKW5AW5BE2224A1P4F

:D

If a torp has already aquired you in DW your options are limited. Drop counter measures, change depth and heading, go to flank and keep your fingers crossed. :o

Its much better to jink as soon as you hear the launch transient. One move I've used in the past is to jink towards the transient bearing and offset it about 30-45 degrees. You're changing the bearing rapidly and also closing on the platform that launched at you, hopefully you can put the torp behind you and travelling in the wrong direction when it goes active. :arrgh!:
This is kind of the opposite of a "side step" where you change heading but try to put some distance on the other sub.

[FPSchazly]

No shame in using auto-TMA in a torpedo-pinging situation to try and figure out where it is. Too many things going on for you to just focus on that. When the torpedo is launched, you may be able to see it on the broadband. If your sonar has a waterfall, you can watch the track of the torpedo. If it's maintaining a constant bearing (or pretty close to constant), there's a good chance the torpedo is heading straight for you. If it's blatantly veering to the left or right, odds are it was not shot at you.

The running at an angle is meant to minimize your active sonar cross section with respect to the torpedo. The optimum angle depends on torpedo speed and your evasion speed, but the ideal angle is around 120 degrees away from the bearing to the torpedo.

[Barleyman]

I actually did take a shot at locating the game disk and more importantly that spiral bound manual. No joy there but now I have more room in the garage and shortlisted some boxes for "recycling".

The game was cheaper on steam for what it's worth. Let's see if I still remember how to play. Hah.

[Barleyman]

No shame in using auto-TMA in a torpedo-pinging situation to try and figure out where it is. Too many things going on for you to just focus on that. When the torpedo is launched, you may be able to see it on the broadband. If your sonar has a waterfall, you can watch the track of the torpedo. If it's maintaining a constant bearing (or pretty close to constant), there's a good chance the torpedo is heading straight for you. If it's blatantly veering to the left or right, odds are it was not shot at you.

The running at an angle is meant to minimize your active sonar cross section with respect to the torpedo. The optimum angle depends on torpedo speed and your evasion speed, but the ideal angle is around 120 degrees away from the bearing to the torpedo.

That's what I meant by the running at an angle. It doesn't work if the torpedo has made you.

[ET2SN]

Or..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpyKsrZc52U

:doh:


You'll notice this was Chazley back before he learned how to shave.

:O:

[Barleyman]

Or..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpyKsrZc52U

:doh:


You'll notice this was Chazley back before he learned how to shave.

:O:

Also before he got the camera properly focused on the paper..

Anyways, the problem with these video presentations is that you can summarize the important equations in a web page that takes 2 min to take in instead of watching the whole 17min presentation.. But yeah, that's what skipping is for to get to the good stuff. But a decent presentation none the less! I just wish USN used metrics :hmmm:


In any case that's also a bit besides the point, you're outrunning the torpedo by brute strength, not evading it.
Do note that this is absolutely no help on ASW missile torpedoes and/or helo torpedoes. In CW you *can* actually evade them but then again you have perfect situational awareness and still you can judge your turns wrong and get whacked. I'm using no knuckles mod, I don't think they really exist, do they?

I was speculating in OP that you might be able to do similar evasion on keeping your eyes peeled on the active intercept to judge the torpedo movement.

[ET2SN]

The best way to evade a torpedo in DW, CW, or real life is not to be near it. :yep:

Don't focus on being Rambo in an ambush. Instead, focus on being sneaky well before you open the muzzle door. :arrgh!:

:03:

[ET2SN]

BTW, if you think I'm being cagey- wait until you install Reinforce Alert in DW. :D

Things are a LOT harder now, no one has a tactical advantage. I've gone back to the basics to try and figure out some new strategy. :timeout:

In real life I qualified on a diesel boat then went to a 688 and RA is still kicking my backsides. :doh:

Oh, on the whole nautical mile vs kilometers thing- look at how a nautical mile is defined. As long as there are 24 hours in a day, knots make more sense. :yep:

[p7p8]

My simple guide for beginers :)

https://i.imgur.com/arIqqWF.jpg

Other important thing is strengh of signal. Some submarines have it in Active intercept station. Last 3 (red one) lights means - you have trouble.

Some subs have long range HF (ex: russian SSN) - it is good tool for ranging danger:

1) mark
2) see it on map
3) place own mark "+" (enter)
4) delete from map original "HF mark"
5) go to HF station and mark again
...and so on :)

OFC it helps when your sub is heading to enemy

Evading is quite complex thing. You need experience and luck. In MP session enemy player can guide torpedo via wire - remember that!

[Julhelm]

Knuckles definitely exist IRL and are well documented.

They are too effective in Cold Waters because somehow, somewhere, turn-induced loss of speed disappeared so it is too easy to create *lots* of them, whereas you should be able to create one but loose a lot of speed in the process.

In Fast Attack, I would always plot the incoming torpedo as heading on the reciprocal bearing from where it was detected, then go flank and turn 100 degrees to the track. If they had not gone active, you could easily evade them. Evading an active weapon that had a lock on you took much manuevering and several decoys, and you were by no means guaranteed to survive.

[Barleyman]

BTW, if you think I'm being cagey- wait until you install Reinforce Alert in DW. :D

Things are a LOT harder now, no one has a tactical advantage. I've gone back to the basics to try and figure out some new strategy. :timeout:

In real life I qualified on a diesel boat then went to a 688 and RA is still kicking my backsides. :doh:

Oh, on the whole nautical mile vs kilometers thing- look at how a nautical mile is defined. As long as there are 24 hours in a day, knots make more sense. :yep:

I already did put it in. I started with 688 Hunter Killer so vanilla doesn't quite do it for me. I had forgotten about these tricks with key values in floor and magic button sequences to alter behaviour..

This is just something of an ongoing gripe, I've read all these "torpedo evasion" guides but none really address the scenario when you get a splashdown etc. I know it's a bad situation but at least there should be some sort of SOP for up to the creek without a paddle scenario.

[Barleyman]

My simple guide for beginers :)

https://i.imgur.com/arIqqWF.jpg

Other important thing is strengh of signal. Some submarines have it in Active intercept station. Last 3 (red one) lights means - you have trouble.

Some subs have long range HF (ex: russian SSN) - it is good tool for ranging danger:

1) mark
2) see it on map
3) place own mark "+" (enter)
4) delete from map original "HF mark"
5) go to HF station and mark again
...and so on :)

OFC it helps when your sub is heading to enemy

Evading is quite complex thing. You need experience and luck. In MP session enemy player can guide torpedo via wire - remember that!

Naah mp.. It's bad enough being humiliated by the machine.

Anyways this kind of manouvering was what I had in mind.

So when you do that AND the torpedo goes around/through the noisemaker and reacquires? You would have it behind you with presumably flank speed at that time..

[ET2SN]

One other thing you can try if you're new or coming back to DW, open your mission editor and create a very basic mission of just you in the sub you want to play. Start the mission and flog the snot out of your boat.:arrgh!: Get to where you have a really good "feel" for how your boat operates. Find your preferred numbers for things like going to PD, raising the radio and ESM masts, etc.
Run at different depths and speeds. Where do you cavitate? When does your sonar wash out? When are you leaving a wake near PD? How quickly can you change depth at a given speed?

Then change the mission to include a surface contact and practice tracking them. Try changing your ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS as you practice tracking your contact.
Then, add a sub and track both contacts.

Start a new mission that's just you vs a patrol plane and a helo. Set the ROE to "peacetime" at first, you'll know if they can track you when you replay the mission. Then change it so they'll shoot at you.

Last, practice launching weps at your contacts.

Building up your skill over time is actually very realistic. IRL, crews will practice for weeks prior to a deployment.

[Pisces]

...
Oh, on the whole nautical mile vs kilometers thing- look at how a nautical mile is defined. As long as there are 24 hours in a day, knots make more sense. :yep:If you research both then you'll find out they are derived from the same basis. Just a different subdivision. (and not related to time at all)

[p7p8]

Find your preferred numbers for things like going to PD, raising the radio and ESM masts, etc.
...
When does your sonar wash out?
You don't have to learn this - just check in game (even during mission) USNI REFERENCE:

https://i.imgur.com/JMoq0Lt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SmFEc24.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rZQrnfl.jpg

You need subtract from "max detectable spd":
- 4 from values 13-25
- 3 from values 9-12
- 2 from values 6-8



Run at different depths and speeds. Where do you cavitate?

I suppose, you know where all (your favorite) subs starts cavitating at speciffic speed. How do you use this knowledge in game, why you have advantage over players who haven't this knowledge?


When are you leaving a wake near PD?
DW do not simulate this. Are you still talking about Dangerous Waters game?


How quickly can you change depth at a given speed?


Ok, so how quickly you can change depth for 688i at 18 kts? For example from 500 ft to 800 ft?


Start a new mission that's just you vs a patrol plane and a helo. Set the ROE to "peacetime" at first, you'll know if they can track you when you replay the mission.
How?
It depends on "tactic" given to AI platforms but if they are on "peace time" ROE, they probably will ignore you.


In my opinion sticking to one platform only slows your progress of learning. You should check few subs with Russian/US type of sonars - it gives you wider knowledge than "mastering" one platform for weeks. It allows you to compare things different and similar to each sub. After that kind of experiences you will learn that in DW you have only 3 types of submarines with small differences between them - only weapon makes true differences.

[ET2SN]

Yep. :har:
Remember how it worked the last time? :yep:

[p7p8]

Sure, all the time you build myths about playing DW. You suggest new players to focus on things completely useless. Maybe this is funny for you but in my opinion it is wrong. So, can you be serious and answer me to my questions?

[Barleyman]

If you research both then you'll find out they are derived from the same basis. Just a different subdivision. (and not related to time at all)

Nothing special about meter vs yards except its damn sight easier to calculate/measure stuff because things line up neatly all the way from very small to very large.

There's a bit of a debacle between km/h and m/s. Latter is not very intuitive except for fast moving objects like rifle bullets.

[Barleyman]

Sure, all the time you build myths about playing DW. You suggest new players to focus on things completely useless. Maybe this is funny for you but in my opinion it is wrong. So, can you be serious and answer me to my questions?

I wouldn't mind hearing the SOP on "so I pulled off textbook evasion manoeuvre and now the torpedo reacquired me from chase position either..

Specific characteristics of a given boat don't do that much difference (except for the speed of course) for live torpedo evasion.

Sure, SSBN is going to be sluggish as heck but SSN isn't exactly turning on a dime either.

[p7p8]

Russian SSN's are more "agile" - can make turn faster than US subs:

Akula
https://i.imgur.com/6Kw7m0u.jpg

Los Angeles
https://i.imgur.com/N8LrBvJ.jpg

...but I still think, that "mastering" one sub is pointless. My knowledge about differences comes from testing all of them.

So when you do that AND the torpedo goes around/through the noisemaker and reacquires?

If modern torpedo aquire your sub you have very low chances for surviving. My simple picture guide shows how to drop decoys to prevent that situation.
Look at "priority for launching decoys" on picture.
Of course setting flank speed (or maximum for retriving TA) should be your first step in single player game.

[p7p8]

This is why decoys pattern is very important.

https://i.imgur.com/WZuDgqb.jpg

[Barleyman]

This is why decoys pattern is very important.

https://i.imgur.com/WZuDgqb.jpg

Clever. Do the torpedoes in DW do this "home on jam" logic or can they opt to "go around" the noisemaker instead?

I think I read in RA docs something about the torpedo rejecting the noisemaker, implying it could be actually ignored and a different target be acquired.

[p7p8]

Torpedo behavior is not the same like in CW. I can't explain this. Most of torpedoes makes circle - it gives you some time for running out but not always. Some of them have Decoy Logic Recognition and Target Reattack option.

From manual (RA_Weapon_Info_rev38):


Torpedo has Decoy Logic Recognition.
It is meant, that the torpedo is not absolutely insured from targeting on CM's.
For example - if range between torpedo and CM is large, the torpedo will not distinguish CM, accordingly it will be targeting on CM.
However - in process of reduction of distance up to a CM and increase of strength of a signal, the torpedo will distinguish CM and reject it from attack.
The acoustic conditions also can influence distance, on which CM will be distinguished steadily.
In general, it is possible to say so - than closer to CM the sensor control of a torpedo will be switched on, especially probability that a signal of a CM will be high on the level, and CM will be at once rejected from the valid target.

Target Reattack option
After loss of contact torpedo continue to move by the current course 20-30 seconds, then will carry out a circular sample of search (in any random side – port or starboard), for attempt of repeated reception of contact.
In case the repeated contact is not received - torpedo will continue cruise in that course on which it was at the moment of the discontinuance reattack option.

[Barleyman]

Torpedo behavior is not the same like in CW. I can't explain this. Most of torpedoes makes circle - it gives you some time for running out but not always. Some of them have Decoy Logic Recognition and Target Reattack option.

From manual (RA_Weapon_Info_rev38):

That's what I meant. It's not entirely clear what "rejecting CM" means exactly. Is the torpedo capable of tracking multiple targets i.e. It could decide since big return A is a fake, slightly smaller return of B me high tailing it out of there is next best option?

Reattack option seems clear enough.

[Barleyman]

Speaking of low chance of survival. I've been practising on barents sea loitering mission as it's such a set piece one. You know where bad guys are and where they're going..

TMA and target tracking is a bit shaky still however. Eventually the Akula made me as I was trying to get his number, getting thrown off by his changing course.

He proceeds to duly dump FOUR ASW missiles on me. Overkill much kamrade? I think that situation the SOP is to kiss your behind goodbye. :wah: My coutershot got pulled away by a noisemaker and the torpedo didn't go on a reattack pattern, instead just kept going on directly.