strike from the sea

[GoldenRivet]

well eleven times tonight i have tried strike from the sea with the same result each time.

very frustrating.

on the last attempt i spent about an hour IRL traveling north almost to the edge of the map. launched 4 TLAMs, reloaded while i headed east, Launched 4 more and continued east diving to 50 foot to the floor.

i had about a dozen of those SS-N-14 SILEX missiles launched at me. but it didnt matter. because the damned bomber flew over and with pinpoint accuracy depth bombed me.

i cant stand these stupid TLAM missions - its a death sentence in the campaign to the point that i just dont do them. i sail around sinking subs until it fails the mission.

EDIT: somehow... i think the bomber is able to detect me by sonar, WITHOUT having buoys in the water. its like i dive to a few hindered feet and increase to 15 knots and it makes a b-line for me from several miles away and drops bombs directly on my conning tower hatch. by the time it gets to where i launched the missiles i am a good few thousand yards away from my launch point... shouldnt it have to drop a buoy and listen? instead of homing right in?

[GoldenRivet]

12th time is the charm lol

repeated the same tactic only headed almost right to the border of the map, fired 4 TLAMs and headed east, fired a MOSS southward, the plane homed in on the moss and air dropped a torpedo on it. ignored me. then circled around a bit and bombed me! UGH but the bombs werent a direct hit as i was turning, the plane left after a while and i fired off the second salvo with success and headed home.

the end.

dunno why but those TLAM missions take some doing for me

[XenonSurf]

I have assembled some tips here that may help you (it's in my second post)

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=235408

Good luck,

[Barleyman]

well eleven times tonight i have tried strike from the sea with the same result each time.

very frustrating.

on the last attempt i spent about an hour IRL traveling north almost to the edge of the map. launched 4 TLAMs, reloaded while i headed east, Launched 4 more and continued east diving to 50 foot to the floor.

i had about a dozen of those SS-N-14 SILEX missiles launched at me. but it didnt matter. because the damned bomber flew over and with pinpoint accuracy depth bombed me.

i cant stand these stupid TLAM missions - its a death sentence in the campaign to the point that i just dont do them. i sail around sinking subs until it fails the mission.

EDIT: somehow... i think the bomber is able to detect me by sonar, WITHOUT having buoys in the water. its like i dive to a few hindered feet and increase to 15 knots and it makes a b-line for me from several miles away and drops bombs directly on my conning tower hatch. by the time it gets to where i launched the missiles i am a good few thousand yards away from my launch point... shouldnt it have to drop a buoy and listen? instead of homing right in?

I told you to take out the Grisha and Krivak with their ASW missiles :Kaleun_Wink:

When you have a bit of initial distance to the plane, don't be afraid to open up at flank to get max distance between you and the plane when it gets to your launch location. Now the problem is that with realistic reloads you'll have to repeat the exercise in 7.5 minutes.. Actually it should be 15min because all 4 tubes can't be loaded at the same time but that's besides the point. If you really want to go all hog, figure out the plane airspeed and approximate distance and go from there how long you can run hell for leather.

Hey fishies, where's "realistic reload times" option?

[GeneralGamer]

I just did this mission and I am making a video today. The key is when you begin your mission leave the area to lessen the warships detected, using silent running until only 2 warships or less are left that you detect. Fire your moss to distract the rest and fire torpedoes at the 2 (or 3) warships that are still lit. when you take them out fire your Tlams and complete the mission. As long as the remaining warships can't see you no aircraft or helos will attack you.

Problem is with this mission you can complete it but there isn't a results screen to say you did so successfully.

https://s1.postimg.org/7dlwjdwdxr/Cold_Waters_2017-11-10_12-19-55-664.jpg

[XenonSurf]

I succeeded by taking out the warships first, else the torpedo counter-attack is deadly, they are just too close and in a war you can't wait or lose any time.

The MOSS and active tactics will work the first time but not for the 2 other times that you musst shoot 4 /2 missiles (you can only launch 4 missiles in 1 go). I had to radically change my position after my first attack. You must get away from searching planes, sonobuoys etc. before attacking a second and third time. Had I not eliminated the ships first I couldn't have changed my position radically with active pinging warships...

To succeed mission you must fire and hit with 10 TLAMs (4-4-2). and yes, there's no debrifing for single missions, I hope they add this soonest.

CW is really Red Storm Rising on high steroids keeping all interesting aspects of this Classic. This game is on a good way to become the best sub sim ever.

[GoldenRivet]

Just leaving the area has worked for me... silent running 2-5 knots, deep as possible, head north until you are near the edge of the map and fire the TLAMs 4 at a time until all 8 are fired.

you will get some aircraft attention but its 50-50 whether or not they find you.

every time i have tried it since my initial attempt i have been successful

[XenonSurf]

@GeneralGamer,
@GoldenRivet,

In CW your tactics will work because the max. range of TLAMs are highly exagerated, and your missiles will hardly get shotdown.
It should be so that the longer the range you're shooting your missiles from, the more of them will get shotdown from ship or terran defences, no mention of that in the briefing. So you should STAY in the sector and not get further away.

[GoldenRivet]

In CW your tactics will work because the max. range of TLAMs are highly exagerated

source?

according to the United States Navy the range of TLAM is between 700 and 1350 nautical miles depending on the variant.

the earliest TLAMs had a range of about 700 nautical miles.

the in-mission map in Cold Waters is roughly 300 x 300 nautical miles. therefor the range of the TLAM is at least twice the size of the entire map

so i fail to see how the range of the TLAMs in game is "highly exaggerated"

IRL TLAMs can be programmed with up to 15 alternate targets to select from remotely should the primary target prove to be non-viable. additionally the TLAM can be programmed with way-points to follow in order to allow it to avoid areas of air defense and surface vessels... so in theory, cold waters should allow the player to route his TLAMs around to come from the back side of the port if he so desired. without this option, i would say leaving the surface ships unable to shoot down TLAMs is a reasonable alternative.

finally, the mission orders are to "remain undetected", if you can tell me how to sink every warship on the map without the enemy figuring out they are being shot at by a sub... i'm all ears :haha:

[XenonSurf]

Then what are you doing at 50ky at the port ? Doesn't make sense if you are not supposed to fire from that range. In the game the max range for TLAM is stated to be 2.000.000 yards, way too optimistic. I would say the effective attack range for any chance to hit a target is exactly from where you are: 50-60 nautical miles, this gives a good pre-alert time, albeit having a travel range of 500-1500 miles.
TLAMs are not ballistic rockets AFAIK, they travel only about 450-500 knots at sea level or where you program them to fly, easy targets for any better AA defence I'd think. Also you are NOT supposed (in 1984, even less in 1968) to have any control once launched or multiple PAPs (see Red Storm Rising for what this games refers on).

[GoldenRivet]

Then what are you doing at 50ky at the port ?

My question exactly :yep:

Doesn't make sense if you are not supposed to fire from that range. In the game the max range for TLAM is stated to be 2.000.000 yards, way too optimistic. I would say the effective attack range for any chance to hit a target is exactly from where you are: 50-60 nautical miles, this gives a very reduced pre-alert time, albeit having a travel range of 500-1500 miles.

just because thats where you start, doesnt mean thats where you have to shoot... like i said in real life the TLAM can navigate to predetermined waypoints to avoid defended areas. in theory the TLAM should be able to navigate its way around the entire border of the map before running out of fuel. in a more realistic sense you should be able to set multiple waypoints (a la Jane's 688i) to go around the ships entirely, instead CW only lets you fire TLAMs in a straight line like all the other weapons in game... not realistic at all. The TLAM also flies too high in game... to avoid detection by on shore defenses it can fly nap of the earth which is also not simulated in game... some cruise missile types are "swarm weapons" meaning they are meant to be fired in large groups, even if half of the swarm is eliminated by defenses they cant shoot them all down.

TLAMs are not ballistic rockets AFAIK, they travel only about 450-500 knots at sea level or where you program them to fly, easy targets for any better AA defense I'd think. Also you are NOT supposed to have any control once launched (see Red Storm Rising for what this games refers on).

according to the United States Navy

TLAMs can loiter over a battle area and send back images of the scene to commanders allowing targets to be selected at will

TLAMs can also be re-programed mid flight via satellite to change course, abort, change targets or reroute the missile to any coordinates on earth within its cruise range.

the point of TLAMs is not to cruise straight through the enemy defenses and hope for the best, it was designed from the start as an intelligent smart weapon which could be steered around defended areas, fly under the radar, and be guided around SAM sites, AAA defenses, Ships etc. en route to the target

finally, launching the weapon from the submarine is a DEAD giveaway as to the submarine's position as it leaves an immediately visible plume of launch smoke and water about 50-100 feet into the air for some time. no commander in his right mind would take his boat to within 10 miles of the coast, in water barely 150 foot deep, while surrounded by ASW craft if multiple types and release this kind of weapon. :doh:

see the video here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FEDvvZQPJQ

you have just alerted a Krivak, two Grishas, a Poti, 2 helicopters and an ASW maritime patrol plane - all within 5 miles of you - revealed your location, and you have literally 100 feet under your keel... its tactical suicide

[XenonSurf]

I'm sure since the year 2000 or so TLAMs have these characteristics, but not in 1984, and less in 1968, the time frames which CW plays the campaigns. I still have the manual of Red Storm Rising saying there are no multiple PAPs (waypoints), only 1 PAP you can set with a seeker of 60° once activated. And you have no control once launched.
Certainly the RSR manual doesn't reflect real capabilities of this magnificient weapon, so I'm still PUZZLED about this mission and the little distance to target
:k_confused:

[GoldenRivet]

All variants of the TLAM offered mid course GPS and/or inertial guidance sources from what ive read on the subject.

none of the TLAM variants, ever, were simply straight run as indicated in game.

at the very least, cold waters should allow for waypoints to be set for the TLAMs

and i maintain, that from a tactical standpoint, there would not be a need to fire tube launched or VLS launched TLAMs in 200 foot of water within mere miles of surface and air based ASW assets... to do so would simply be suicide.

even if you managed to substantially alter course and speed after firing the weapon, you would have no depth for vertical maneuvering, and the airborne ASW threats would have your position nailed down to within a 2-3,000 yard margin of error and would have a response time measured in minutes - probably 3 minutes or less. Frankly, you'd be boxed in right after launching your sortie.

with TLAMs as they are in cold waters, the best bet is to get as far away from the port facility as possible and make your attack.

[XenonSurf]

and i maintain, that from a tactical standpoint, there would not be a need to fire tube launched or VLS launched TLAMs in 200 foot of water within mere miles of surface and air based ASW assets... to do so would simply be suicide.
(...)



I agree with that of course, and from the beginning of this thread. I think the mission briefing needs to be changed, maybe you are the only sub in the sector to justify the use of TLAM's at such a short range, or a story like some trucks are ready to leave port with high-sensible material and must be destroyed asap etc..., and so your situation is indeed a very bleak one :)

To be honest:
In the meantime I have replayed this mission 2 times and got sunk towards the end after launching 2 missile attacks, the first one went ok and I managed to sink all warships before the launch, in the 2nd attack a plane has 'magically' spot me although I've made a stealth course change and got good distance away (I was at 10 knots and not cavitating, 15k yards away from my 2nd launch position, how the hell could he overfly me ??). My suspicion is that because of the shallow depth the plane was able to simply see my sub from the air despite my 150 feet depth (the ground was 212 feet). The plane dropped bombs, I had to blow my tanks to surface after damage and ... :(

[GoldenRivet]

To be very honest:
In the meantime I have replayed this mission 2 times and failed miserably at the mission end after launching 2 missile attacks, the first one went ok, in the 2nd attack a plane has 'magically' spot me although I've made a savant course change. My suspicion is that at such a shallow depth the plane was able to simply see my sub from the air despite I my 150 feet depth (the ground was 212 feet). The plane dropped bombs, I had to blow my tanks to surface and ... :(

this has been my experience every time i didnt put plenty of distance between myself and the target

[Spartaner251]

I gave the mission a try too, didn't sunk any ships and just looked at the map.
There is deeper water a bit to the north, but that's where the plane is loitering.
Since time compression is a bit lacking I wasn't able to test how to sneak through the two Poti escorts and getting to the deep coast water in the West.

Shooting the TLAMs so that they won't pass enemy ship AAA might do the trick...

[XenonSurf]

I realize now what gets me killed all the time: the blinking sonobuoys !!
They have passive or active search and point the plane(s) directly to my position, no 'magic' here... Next time I know I must go flank as soon as i hear the plane noise or staying still for a loooooong time to make these buoys run out (if possible at all).

[-Pv-]

"straight line like all the other weapons in game... not realistic at all. The TLAM also flies too high in game... to avoid detection by on shore defenses it can fly nap of the earth"

I believe KF raised the cruise altitude this high to get over terrain. This simulation doesn't include terrain following. When it was set lower, you could only attack coastal targets right on the shoreline.
-Pv-

[XenonSurf]

After reading all this thread again, I realize that the gameplay for the TLAMs needs to be re-adjusted.
For future game versions, I suggest this for the Killergames developers:

- Cruising speed on waypoints for TLAMs: 450 knots at sea level, 550 knots at 15.000 feet (subsonic)
- Missile activated, active search on target: 550 knots at sea level, limited to 550 knots at 15.000 feet (subsonic)
- In-game TLAM max. range: 450 nautical miles
- Possibility to setup 10 PAPs (waypoints) with possible different altitude settings within a limited interval (e.g. Sea Level - 15.000 feet)
- Targets for TLAMs are pre-programmed by the mission and cannot be changed
- TLAMs are equiped with 3 powerful launchable IR jamming decoys

More importantly, adjust naval and terran defences accordingly to be able to intercept these TLAMs at a range up to 100 Miles (for gameplay reasons, that doesn't need to reflect reality).

The player would need to carefully setup the waypoints of TLAMs and would have control over the missile as long as it's in Cruise Mode between the waypoints, a special routine would launch the IR decoy + missile evasive logic if pursued by a SA missile and seen in the Event Camera.

Every encounter with a SA missile would reduce the overall probability of the TLAM to reach its target by 10%. The missile would have an initial ReachTarget threshold of 90%.

Success Rate for locating and jamming a SA missile: 65%, else TLAM gets destroyed (Event Camera).
Success Rate for SA missile against no-decoy TLAM: (85 - 0.5 x Diff) in percent where Diff = (MissileRange - RangeToTarget) in percent of MissileRange.

Once passed the final waypoint, the TLAM would go in final Active Search for its pre-programmed target and the player would no longer have control. The 'ReachTarget' threshold is applied, destroying target (Event Camera), or the missile runs out of fuel and self-destroys (Event Camera).

All enemy naval assets and aircrafts are aggressively re-directed towards the player's launch position attacking player's submarine.

I think this can be programmed, and some interesting single missions and campaign missions can be created.

[Julhelm]

So for all practical purposes the TLAM mission would then play out like this:

You start at the extreme end of the map, set up your waypoints in elaborate fashion, then launch the TLAMs. Because TLAMs are slow, you have to wait around for at least 15 minutes as they fly across the map. Then at 100 miles, what is in effect an RNG mechanic starts playing out where SAMs either kill or miss your weapons, completely out of your control.

Now 20 minutes have passed, and due to RNG your missiles are shot down so you failed the mission.

Now explain how this arguably more realistic implementation is more fun.

[Spartaner251]

well we can spend the 20 min with dodging torps ;-P in deep water

so it would be like an insertion mission, because all slots would be filled with TLAMs to beat RNG ?

[XenonSurf]

So for all practical purposes the TLAM mission would then play out like this:

You start at the extreme end of the map, set up your waypoints in elaborate fashion, then launch the TLAMs. Because TLAMs are slow, you have to wait around for at least 15 minutes as they fly across the map. Then at 100 miles, what is in effect an RNG mechanic starts playing out where SAMs either kill or miss your weapons, completely out of your control.

Now 20 minutes have passed, and due to RNG your missiles are shot down so you failed the mission.

Now explain how this arguably more realistic implementation is more fun.

well we can spend the 20 min with dodging torps ;-P in deep water

so it would be like an insertion mission, because all slots would be filled with TLAMs to beat RNG ?


Oh no, you won't sit there for 20 minutes and doing nothing... That's not what you are paid for in the Navy :)

Quite the contrary: You are not alone in the sea, enemy ships with SA capability have positionned in crucial points, planes and subs are actively searching for intruders. If your missiles happen to get in the 100-miles range of any these assets (including airports and terran SAM systems), friendly satellite downlinks could alert you about missile launches and then you better re-program your TLAM waypoints for better survivability of the missiles. It's not going to be a walk in the park...Although your missiles will have a fair chance to reach target.

Not to speak about the aggressive counter-attacks of all enemy forces heading to your launch position and your submarine, you'll have no time to dream around I think...

[Tinman764]

Aircraft in general use some kind of black magic to find you in the game.

I had a helo dipping at least 5 miles away while I crawled at 5 knots 600' down waiting to get enough distance to end the mission.
Completely out of the blue the helo dips right on top of me and drops torps. There was no way I gave myself away - I have no idea how he found me.

[XenonSurf]

Aircraft in general use some kind of black magic to find you in the game.

I had a helo dipping at least 5 miles away while I crawled at 5 knots 600' down waiting to get enough distance to end the mission.
Completely out of the blue the helo dips right on top of me and drops torps. There was no way I gave myself away - I have no idea how he found me.

Helo and planes are I think your most dangerous adversaries in CW. Doing more single + campaign encounters, I find out that planes (and helos?) are equiped with MAD searching devices that is a device measuring magnetic changes. As far as I understand it, the detection from them is not related to your engine's noise but your movement in the water. In CW this device has a near 100% detection rate if the plane is near enough (how near, I must find out!). The only remedy is staying quiet at 0 knots and under the layer if possible.

As for Helos, they for sure drop dipping sonars in the water, you will see them by hitting F4, and if you pay attention, you can turn the 3D view around your sub to see the white entry point of these sonars, they are passive ones and not shown on the map. They must not be very effective, I once passed-by very near of one without being detected (because of no plane nearby that could engage me?)

Then, there are active Sonobuoys to make your life a painful one, dropped by planes, specs say they have a detection of 4k-8k yards, but their data is soon transmitted to the planes who will fly to you and drop - if not depth charges - other sonobuoys and you are go for a new evasion. I figure out that some MOSS tactic can perhaps make me get out-of-range of these buoys, else I see no defense against but remaining a sitting duck at 0 knots.

My prefered tactic against depth charges:
I figure out that being underwater I get more damaged even by charges that miss me directly, so I'm listening to the plane comming in (you can hear it even when you go flank at 33 knots), then I surface the sub hitting S for grand angle and ballasts to +30. On the surface at flank speed, I just have to care not taking a direct hit, a near miss will NOT damage me (very reduced explosion wave which is mainly headed downwards by bomb design). Ofc, you cannot do this if enemy ships are nearby...

For the moment I conclude there is no 'magic' but harassing airborne and sonar enemies to evade which do a fine job, much to my detriment :)

[GeneralGamer]

Sorry for the delay but I did put up a video tutorial for "Strike From The Sea"

It should help you. At least I hope it does :) The approach varies depending on the enemy locations but this method for all.


You can see it here. Enjoy! :subsim:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwessd7_T1_CdFU_Mw4-SrQ

[Schiffmorder]

Well it took 24 posts to hit on the OP's problem but even then got it somewhat wrong. Magnetic Anomaly Detection is indeed what is going on here but it has nothing to do with movement through the water...that's SONAR. MAD gear detects very minute variations of the earths magnetic field caused by ferrous metals. For this reason the titanium alloyed Alfa was rendered impervious to detection via this method but you could hear the thing coming 3 days in advance so it didn't matter. US subs (until the Seawolf class and beyond which are HY 100) are made of HY 80 steel alloy and subject to detection via MAD. The cure for this is DEPTH. Magnetic fields vary with the inverse cube of the distance. So for a TLAM mission with a 4 tube boat the protocol is going to be to fire off your first 4, hit the Emergency Dive button, turn 90 degrees and commence your reloads while also not crashing into the bottom or crushing yourself. Get deep as you can. Know your boats' test depth and go there or even a couple hundred feet beyond. This same technique applies when any aircraft is present in ANY mission. Many helo's have MAD gear too. That's why players die when they get cute and hide under a strong layer at 200 feet. It's hard for an aircraft to get a MAD detection but when it does it knows (precisely for that reason) almost exactly where you are and suddenly it's raining depth bombs.

[Aktungbby]

Schiffmorder! After a 14 year 'silent run'! :Kaleun_Salute:'