Why can I not dive after an emergency blow?

[Bungo_Pete]

...and don't tell me it is because of having to charge air banks i got an eel on my ass screw protocol.I do not need air to dive! FIX IT!

[XenonSurf]

...and don't tell me it is because of having to charge air banks i got an eel on my ass screw protocol.I do not need air to dive! FIX IT!

I think it's realistic: Your dive planes are too weak to make your multi-ton sub dive, even at high speed, so you need the ballasts to fill with water to help. It takes 2 minutes approx to refill the pressure in the pumps to make the ballasts available after an emergency blow. For more details you'd have to consult docs about real subs, but these details are not published I think :)

But try this: Go at flank speed and once you reach max. speed, then in 1-go hit W multiple times to set the dive planes to max down. Maybe you'll dive but I doubt.

[ETR3(SS)]

If you find yourself in a situation where you have to EMBT blow, chances are you're screwed anyways.

[XenonSurf]

Theoretically it would be easy to construct a sub which would dive without the need of pumps: a sort of mechanical device that opens the ballasts to let the water in. Problem is: Such a construction would be very frigid and subject to easy damage in combat, so it's better to have pumps that are well-shielded against explosions etc. If your pumps or ballasts are gone your are in a liquid grave...

So in your situation, the pumps must reload to apply pressure and fill the ballasts with water removing the air which applies forward force and impedes any diving. You need to be that patient, in reallity it lasts more than 2 minutes I imagine which means skippers do emergency blows really at last ressort because any time on the surface is deadly.

[-Pv-]

When blowing ALL the compressed air you have stored forcing all the water out of the ballast tanks, diving immediately without charging means you have lost all the stored pressure necessary to bring you back to the surface using ballast tanks. Since there is no compressed air, you have also lost the ability to trim and control your depth. You can take on water to sink, but you cannot push it back out again. Planes and propulsion are not enough to compensate for the water you have taken on to dive. Your boat essentially becomes a rock with an engine.

If you are surfacing to save the crew with enemy nearby, then you blow emergency in order to abandon ship at the surface increasing your crew's ability to survive.

If you are blowing to get to the surface so you can make enough repairs to sail home (in the game, get to the map edge or abort the 3D sim) then there are no attacking enemy around and you have time to recharge.

Other than these two reasons, you should not be blowing emergency.
As stated above, you should only do this to save the crew and in most cases, you have probably lost the fight.
-Pv-

[Bungo_Pete]

I'm not saying flood the ballast tanks to bring the ship down fast just let in enough water for a slight down bubble(very slight negative buoyancy)
I am writing this after just getting racked by a kresta class cruiser his helicopter dropped a torpedo on me my skipjack dodged the torpedo with a blow and then he blasted me whilst I wallowed on the surface unable to dive
submarines have dive planes for a purpose.

[XenonSurf]

Oh, I just forgot to say: Going to flank and then putting the ballasts to +30 and also the planes at +30 will get you to surface quite as quickly. And also the contrary when on surface and you want to dive (-30 / -30), so no need to use the 'Blow Emergency tanks'.
In practise it's not that long: just steer a big angle with S and hit E multiple times to make the fastest possible surfacing. Then hit X to level.

[GoldenRivet]

Just out of curiosity i did a test

Sturgeon class at 500 foot depth, 0 knots

emergency blow - submarine was fully surfaced in 2 minutes 0 seconds

use of full rise on ballast and planes only - submarine was fully surfaced in 2 minutes 42 seconds

repeated the test at 500 foot dept, 25 knots

emergency blow - submarine was fully surfaced in 30 seconds

use of full rise on ballast and planes only - submarine was fully surfaced in 34 seconds.

so in a situation where you are running full bore away from torpedoes, blowing ballast doesnt appear to make that much of a difference

[XenonSurf]

Also if your test depth is about 800, then when crash-diving manually with 25 knots you must recover latest 200 feet before (hitting X to level) or you will exceed 800. To be safe I would level out when hearing the 500 pass. To speed up the levelling I make a hard turn and return to 5-10 knots, also to fool any enemy whith a TMA on me.

[ETR3(SS)]

Conducting an EMBT blow to evade a torpedo, and subsequently being unable to immediately submerge, is a tactical error on the OP's part, not the game. You made a decision and you learned the hard way, doesn't mean the game needs changing.

Of note though is the ballast system in game actually is performing the function of three systems in real life. EMBT blow, trim system, and fairwater/ bow planes.

[ragnar1242]

Conducting an EMBT blow to evade a torpedo, and subsequently being unable to immediately submerge, is a tactical error on the OP's part, not the game. You made a decision and you learned the hard way, doesn't mean the game needs changing.

Of note though is the ballast system in game actually is performing the function of three systems in real life. EMBT blow, trim system, and fairwater/ bow planes.

This ^^^

Having to actually control this game like a real submarine would be a task all in itself

[GeneralGamer]

If you hit emergency blow by mistake...( never did that ..yeah right lol) You can maintain depth until it is safe to surface with using your speed and planes.
:up:

[XenonSurf]

In my first campaign I have hit blow tanks by mistake instead of emmergency dive, and I didn't realize it until I was on the surface.
Good thing is there were no spectators in my room :)

:Kaleun_Cheers:

[MC_Hamster]

Only time I've ever blown ballast was when I was on the verge of being wrecked at the end of a battle. Had managed to take out all the bad guys, but had taken a bunch of damage in the process and then took one final hit from a helo-launched torp that put me over the edge and caused enough flooding that I couldn't get back up before the pressure overwhelmed my pumps and I went to the bottom. Sat there for a while until the Helo bugged out and all was clear, blew my tanks and crossed my fingers. Fortunately it was enough.

As has been pointed out though.. it's an emergency procedure. You should probably expect some discomfort :)

[Bungo_Pete]

well it just happened again(driving a jack) in 323 feet of water set 65 @320 feet emergency blow do 180 cannot dive....DEAD!

FIX IT!

[MC_Hamster]

Fix what? it's not broken.

What exactly are you expecting?

You appear to be under the impression that doing an emergency blow should be some regular operation. As people have said: it's not. It's not just the reverse of a crash dive or something.. this is basically an "abandon ship" kind of move. If you're lucky, it'll give you the chance to make enough field repairs to get you back to base for a full repair, but you shouldn't be doing it unless you're basically acknowledging your patrol is done for.

[succerpunch]

What must they fix, there is nothing wrong with the game. When you blow ballast you use all your compressed air to blast out the water in your ballast tanks and when your on the surface you need to fill your compressed air tanks with air because they are empty. There is no such thing as fill it up with just enough water to dive because once you let water in and your weight is greater then your displacement you will start to dive but if you compressed air tanks are empty you will continue to dive until you pass crush depth and implode. If you have air in your compressed air tanks then you can once you dive use the air to push some water out so that your weight is equal to your displacement so you can hover but if you don't have any air in your compressed air tanks you will continue to dive because you can't force the water out.

[succerpunch]

Theoretically it would be easy to construct a sub which would dive without the need of pumps: a sort of mechanical device that opens the ballasts to let the water in. Problem is: Such a construction would be very frigid and subject to easy damage in combat, so it's better to have pumps that are well-shielded against explosions etc. If your pumps or ballasts are gone your are in a liquid grave...

So in your situation, the pumps must reload to apply pressure and fill the ballasts with water removing the air which applies forward force and impedes any diving. You need to be that patient, in reallity it lasts more than 2 minutes I imagine which means skippers do emergency blows really at last ressort because any time on the surface is deadly.

This might work but will make so much noise that you might as well just blast stereo music because it will probably be just as loud.

[XenonSurf]

This might work but will make so much noise that you might as well just blast stereo music because it will probably be just as loud.

I'm never using the Blow Tanks feature, I just set the ballasts and planes to maximum, this has the same result without the big sound spread around.
I would use it if my sub is too damaged with propulsion and planes not working, then you don't have much other choice or you will soon implode when going down...Be aware that once your hull is damaged, your max. depth is greatly reduced, the game is far too generous with that 'death threshold' IMO. With 30% Hull I still was able to hit the 800 feet depth safely which is not realistic. With more realism you would indeed use the Blow Tanks more frequently.

I don't see (or understand your point) that while playing these emergency tanks don't work as intended, and 2 minutes waiting time for resetting the needed pressure are really generous compared to the real thing. In the game, these 2 minutes are however an 'eternal' time to wait, unfortunately AFAIK you cannot mod it; in this time you are completly at the mercy of surface enemies and planes.

[ETR3(SS)]

well it just happened again(driving a jack) in 323 feet of water set 65 @320 feet emergency blow do 180 cannot dive....DEAD!

FIX IT!:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

[Mspot]

I must say, Bingo_Pete, these guys are dead on in their responses. For a playable realistic submarine simulation video game, this game strikes a near perfect balance. Nothing is broken. There is no bug nor a glitch. As aggravating as it is to you, what you are requesting, demanding, is the equivalent of a "Wait, wait, I have to reload," when playing a shooter game in which you made a bad tactical error.

I, along with many here, have blown ballast for one reason or another while playing this game -- usually with full rise on the planes and at flank speed. Usually it works. Usually. However, I know it's a gamble as I'm going straight to the top for a time. I also know I made tactically unsound decisions when that happens. Just a game. Learn from your error and move on.

[Capt.Hunt]

yeah, despite how it always appears in movies, Emergency Blow is not really a good tactic for torpedo evasion, it should leave you vulnerable on the surface.

It should be noted that you can drive yourself back under on the planes, you just can't use the automatic depth controls to do it. Ring flank speed and full down on the planes, you'll sink like a rock.

[shipkiller1]

When blowing ALL the compressed air you have stored forcing all the water out of the ballast tanks, diving immediately without charging means you have lost all the stored pressure necessary to bring you back to the surface using ballast tanks. Since there is no compressed air, you have also lost the ability to trim and control your depth. You can take on water to sink, but you cannot push it back out again. Planes and propulsion are not enough to compensate for the water you have taken on to dive. Your boat essentially becomes a rock with an engine.

Other than these two reasons, you should not be blowing emergency.
As stated above, you should only do this to save the crew and in most cases, you have probably lost the fight.
-Pv-

American SSN's do not use AIR to change the buoyancy (weight) of the ship. Using air is NOISY evolution in most circumstances and that's why is it not normally used. In the real world, after an EMBT blow and you wanted to re-submerge, you would just open the main ballast tank vents.

[The Bandit]

American SSN's do not use AIR to change the buoyancy (weight) of the ship. Using air is NOISY evolution in most circumstances and that's why is it not normally used. In the real world, after an EMBT blow and you wanted to re-submerge, you would just open the main ballast tank vents.

If a sub were to dive in this state (i.e. opening the vents to re-flood the tanks after the blow before recharging the compressed air tank) wouldn't that still be quite dangerous since the emergency blow system would be inoperative (little to no air) along with the torpedo tubes (assuming we're not talking about swim-out weapons)?

[shipkiller1]

If a sub were to dive in this state (i.e. opening the vents to re-flood the tanks after the blow before recharging the compressed air tank) wouldn't that still be quite dangerous since the emergency blow system would be inoperative (little to no air) along with the torpedo tubes (assuming we're not talking about swim-out weapons)?

You are confusing peace time operational procedures with war time realities.

US Submarines do not use the EMBT blow system to routinely surface the ship. They drive to the surface and start the Low Pressure (LP) blower to blow the water out of the ballast tanks.
So, if in a war time scenario, you actuated the EMBT blow system, got the casualty under control, you can now re-submerge and start an air charge. You most likely will not 'blow until equalized'. You are going to have some air left in the tanks. Plus, unless absolutely necessary, you are not going to go back into battle.

You can also do the blow, decide that you do not need to surface and vent (open the MBT vents) on the way up.

With the air charge going, you are drawing air from the 'people tank' and when necessary, go to Periscope Depth (PD), raise the snorkel mast and 'equalize ship pressure', bringing vacuum down and putting a small pressure in the ship, and go deep again. We do this all the time.

You CANNOT pull air from the ballast tanks.

[Capt.Hunt]

it would be nice if the ships had a snorkel in game, for just that kind of event. Also, the ability to partial blow the MBT would be useful.

[ETR3(SS)]

Also, the ability to partial blow the MBT would be useful.Useful how?

[shipkiller1]

Useful how?

Very useful during some operations.

Surfacing through the ice.
Jump 50

and so on...

The 637 class had a normal blow system which blew the MBT's from air bank five only.

[ETR3(SS)]

During normal evolutions sure, but we're not surfacing at the North Pole here. How would it be useful in a tactical situation?

[shipkiller1]

During normal evolutions sure, but we're not surfacing at the North Pole here. How would it be useful in a tactical situation?

In the approach to a target, not very useful.
But in some scenarios trying to infiltrate someplace, a Jump50 would save you from grounding and damaging your ship. You are just risking an air transient.

In the game, not very useful...

[ETR3(SS)]

In the approach to a target, not very useful.
But in some scenarios trying to infiltrate someplace, a Jump50 would save you from grounding and damaging your ship. You are just risking an air transient.

In the game, not very useful...
Tell the Quartermaster to wake up if you're in danger on grounding.:haha:

[Ighten]

But aren't the dive planes above the water and useless once your surfaced ?

[ETR3(SS)]

But aren't the dive planes above the water and useless once your surfaced ?
Stern Planes are underwater still.

[Capt.Hunt]

not so much in normal evolutions, but in emergencies, such as flooding casualties, or if the pumps are damaged it could be useful to quickly burp out some ballast without blowing the tanks completely dry.

I'm trying to think of more specific scenarios, They seem to do it all the time in the military submarine thrillers I read. IDK, maybe this game just isn't in-depth enough for such a tactic to be useful.

[shipkiller1]

But aren't the dive planes above the water and useless once your surfaced ?

You control depth primarily with ANGLE. You use the stern planes to set the angle on the ship.

The fairwater planes are used for fine depth control.

Forth flight (BLK4) 688's (751+) do not have fair water planes, neither do SSN-21's or 774 class.

[Ighten]

Well you learn something every day - Thx :Kaleun_Salute:

[Bungo_Pete]

Well this is one that really pissed me off.Doing my usual skipjack campaigns having the best one yet,when I die I start over.Any way just doing great confident as hell.So command hits me with intercept order I roll my eyes
I have only 2 mk 37's left novembers and friends,well guess who his friend is...thats right a victor turns out I got perfect angle We are both at700feet
he's doing 20knots pinging away i am sitting still 0 knots head on at 2.1 yards he fires I do my now standard bop up to 30 knots an go right at the torpedo in this case him too! dude did not like that he fires another one and then one more and one more to boot.Now something weird happens i go to 3d map and we are head on well almost,now I thought collisions were not modeled then i heard that hull scraping sound when subs are on on the bottom trying to move.I digress....I got three set65's on my ass. He takes one them which does not sink him (amazed!) and then he blurts out another 180 (i am behind him now) any way to wrap this up he gets slammed by two more of his eel's but I got one on my ass and im done so i blow ballast,and i cannot out turn a set65 on the surface.This was another cool moment in this game...but it sucked because of this common refrain
...UNABLE TO TO DIVE BECAUSE OF RECHARGING EMERGENCY AIR BANKS


The End.

[Julhelm]

Why are you blowing emergency ballast?

[FPSchazly]

+1

If the blowing ballast tactic comes from The Hunt for Red October movie, please take note that the Dallas was very much out of the fight once it did that :03:

[The Bandit]

+1

If the blowing ballast tactic comes from The Hunt for Red October movie, please take note that the Dallas was very much out of the fight once it did that :03:

I'm not about to call it a valid or realistic tactic but I have been able to use emergency blow to avoid torpedoes in the past by quickly changing depth (unsure if the large amount of air bubbles released helps decoy the torpedo or not) the big thing is you will need to keep your boat at either flank or all ahead full and a very unhealthy -20 on the planes just to maintain depth (even after this you'll be yo-yoing back and forth between rising and sinking) and she handles like a pig afterwords.

It also puts you at a severe disadvantage if there are surface assets around (when you finally do have to come up to recharge the system) and really only should be used when you have had a fish chasing you for some time, its nearly caught you and you think its probably running low on fuel / remaining charge.

[ETR3(SS)]

Well this is one that really pissed me off.Doing my usual skipjack campaigns having the best one yet,when I die I start over.Any way just doing great confident as hell.So command hits me with intercept order I roll my eyes
I have only 2 mk 37's left novembers and friends,well guess who his friend is...thats right a victor turns out I got perfect angle We are both at700feet
he's doing 20knots pinging away i am sitting still 0 knots head on at 2.1 yards he fires I do my now standard bop up to 30 knots an go right at the torpedo in this case him too! dude did not like that he fires another one and then one more and one more to boot.Now something weird happens i go to 3d map and we are head on well almost,now I thought collisions were not modeled then i heard that hull scraping sound when subs are on on the bottom trying to move.I digress....I got three set65's on my ass. He takes one them which does not sink him (amazed!) and then he blurts out another 180 (i am behind him now) any way to wrap this up he gets slammed by two more of his eel's but I got one on my ass and im done so i blow ballast,and i cannot out turn a set65 on the surface.This was another cool moment in this game...but it sucked because of this common refrain
...UNABLE TO TO DIVE BECAUSE OF RECHARGING EMERGENCY AIR BANKS


The End.

Why are you blowing emergency ballast?
What Julhelm said. EMBT Blow is there to emergency surface in the event of uncontrolled flooding. It's not the game that's the problem, it's you Bungo. It doesn't matter how many times you come back whining about it, it's the same in everyone of your situations. You use an EMBT Blow in the wrong manner and wonder why you get killed in the process. Honestly I can't tell if you're trolling or...

[XenonSurf]

Good question from the dev: why using emergency blow?
I'm not a skipper, but my understanding is that it's a very last ressort to get the sub to a depth allowing the crew to abandon the sub alive.
I see no other good purpose, everything else can be done by normal operations.
Also when you are using this desperation move, then the enemy is the last thing you should care about.

In a few videos for the public you usually see such quick surfacings. It's done to make more 'action' for the public, else pictures of subs would be plain boring... But one scene from Red October is quite realistic: vertical evasion, thus getting the sub ''out of the water with big waves", is a consequence of changing depth and surfacing at max. speed to evade torpedos, you lose a significant amount of speed by doing so, so a good skipper would avoid that making the sub stabilize at 50 feet or so before releasing a noisemaker and going down again. In reality it's so that you cannot do that too often in a row for the sake of your crew... What are the effects of going from 800 feet to 50 feet in 2 minutes and this more times? I don't think this ends well...

A sub on the surface is as good as any warship stucked at 0 knots...Both are lost, just zombies...

[ETR3(SS)]

But one scene from Red October is quite realistic: vertical evasion, thus getting the sub ''out of the water with big waves", is a consequence of changing depth and surfacing at max. speed to evade torpedos, you lose a significant amount of speed by doing so, so a good skipper would avoid that making the sub stabilize at 50 feet or so before releasing a noisemaker and going down again. In reality it's so that you cannot do that too often in a row for the sake of your crew... What are the effects of going from 800 feet to 50 feet in 2 minutes and this more times? I don't think this ends well...It's not realistic at all really. Once you hit the chicken switches you're going to the surface, there's no stopping it short so you can remain submerged. Note that EMBT Blow stands for Emergency Main Ballast Tank Blow, not tactical but Emergency.

[subcritical]

I would like to add that the time to recharge the air banks seems way to short anyway. Take a look at some videos on YouTube where they blow the tanks next to the pier, that is a lot of air to recharge.

But like ETR mentioned, once you've committed to throwing the switches knowing the tactical disadvantage you will have but weighing the survival of ship against that, you are going to the surface unless you've already taken on too much water. Going back under without repairs is just making the enemies job easier.

[C-Wolf]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, an emergency blow shouldn't require having to run the HPACs to recharge the HP air system, unless the flasks were too low to begin with. . . And woe be unto the crew that goes around diving with minimum air for a single pull of the chicken switches anyway.

As coded into the game, it's unrealistic, but it is what it is. In a tactical environment, you're dead meat on the surface anyway. And a blow to abandon ship? In the cold waters of the North Atlantic, you'd choke to death as your nuts ricocheted off your uvula, and that's before your core temp pegged the popsicle indication. We carried (2) three-man life rafts. . . This was more to placate the wives and parents that little Johnnie would eventually be rescued. An implosion is far more humane - you're more likely to burst into flame before you ever get wet as the atmosphere in the compartment explosively compresses. --These are great scenarios to sow and let germinate in a new kid's head after their first dive. . .

Fairwater planes are of no use out of water unless the ballast tanks are filled with helium and the boat is flying. And stern planes are for leveling the boat in conjunction with the trim and drain system; they're used for depth-keeping in emergency situations (emergency deeps, etc.) Bow planes are preferable since being forward of the sail the boat "follows" and reacts to them faster at higher speeds - this is one reason the US has moved away from them (for SSNs.)

The Trident is a different animal in the way it behaves due to it's displacement/size, but they dive relatively fast once the plug is pulled, --for what they are, which can best be described as a big honkin, very quiet pig with the ability to conduct urban renewal on a massive scale. The SSGN re-purposing mod for the first four was one of the smartest ideas the Navy has come up with in recent memory, --especially since the boats have been maintained in such great condition over the years and have lots of life left.

I just downloaded the game today (and joined up here) and have to say it's the best subsim (AI-wise) since RSR. As a submarine sonarman for 21 years, I'm pretty critical of subsims too. As a CG artist these days, I like the graphics a lot!

[Aktungbby]

C-Wolf!:Kaleun_Salute: