No more Active! Instantly made the 1968 Campaign more fun!

[Skyhigh]

Disabled the Active Sonar on all 1968 subs (in the files in Vessels folder).

So much better. They can still do a good job tracking you on Passive, but at least they don't give themselves easily away, or spoil the stalking by suddenly going active. You can nicely sneak up on them to pump a MK37 into their baffles.

(Mind you: when a sub has a towed array the towed array needs to be disabled too, like for the Yankee SSBN. If this is not done the game goes bonkers).

Of course it's possible in 1984 as well, but doing this makes the MK48/US Sub combo even more Godlike. But for 1968 it works well.

It's not that much easier - they still fire torps (and a lot) if they get you on passive. And they also fire snapshots.

For me it's more satisfactory. And the surface vessels remained untouched, they can ping away. But subs stay silent. As subs should.

[JhonSilver]

The thing is that the power of active sonar is pretty low.

I went through the 1984 campaign with Skipjack, with a noise level increased to 150 dB. And Russian active sonar reinforced by +10 dB,
on ultra complexity.
It was very interesting.

The main problem of the 1984 campaign is that missions are designed so that Russians use very little helicopters.
But helicopters are the basis of ASW tactics.
(and there not any "Godlike")

[FPSchazly]

Man, sometimes I feel like I need that active on the Skipjack to find anything haha

[Skyhigh]

Well my problem was this:
http://i68.tinypic.com/24pcux4.png

Once you fire a torpedo, every single sub in the neighbourhood goes active. So much for secrecy ey.
To me, that's just not much fun. Doesn't matter if the power is low - even at Active at -50 you still see the yellow bearing line, and so it will reveal the enemy's location.

But you are right, FPSchazly... sometimes you can't find the enemy anymore. That's either a lost mission or you go active yourself to wake them up... Sometimes they fire a bearing-only torpedo and it gives you a hint of where they are.

[Julhelm]

Mk48 is too good. I have actually been working on rebalancing the sensors, noise values on US vs Soviet subs and the campaign missions themselves. 68 in particular plays much better once formations are smaller and more dispersed, and you can use the Mk16's a lot more efficiently.

I think they should use active *sometimes* but not sure what the parameters for this should be. Perhaps once they are evading weapons and go fast, then they should start pinging so that they can return fire on you.

[Skyhigh]

Mk48 is too good. I have actually been working on rebalancing the sensors, noise values on US vs Soviet subs and the campaign missions themselves. 68 in particular plays much better once formations are smaller and more dispersed, and you can use the Mk16's a lot more efficiently.

Excited!!


I think they should use active *sometimes* but not sure what the parameters for this should be. Perhaps once they are evading weapons and go fast, then they should start pinging so that they can return fire on you.

Yes "sometimes" is fine, but now it is just too much and seemingly random.
I myself would think of going active too when I am flanking away, since my loudness will give me away anyhow. So if the AI could do it at >20 knots or something, yeah why not?

[Shadriss]

Yes "sometimes" is fine, but now it is just too much and seemingly random.
I myself would think of going active too when I am flanking away, since my loudness will give me away anyhow. So if the AI could do it at >20 knots or something, yeah why not?

Not realistic though - you could transmit easilly enough, but remember that your passive sensor has to be able to hear the echo for it to do any good. Once you get up to 20+, the flow noise over the sphere would be so loud that you are effectively deaf. In essence, you'd be shouting to no effect.

[Raptor_Pilot]

Once you fire a torpedo, every single sub in the neighbourhood goes active. So much for secrecy ey.

Once you fire a torpedo, every sub nearby hears your firing transients, or they hear the high speed screws of the torpedo itself, and if they didn't have you on passive sonar, the smart thing to do is go active and acquire you as fast as possible.

I don't fault the AI for being aggressive. In fact, I salute it. :Kaleun_Cheers:

[Skyhigh]

Once you fire a torpedo, every sub nearby hears your firing transients, or they hear the high speed screws of the torpedo itself, and if they didn't have you on passive sonar, the smart thing to do is go active and acquire you as fast as possible.

I don't fault the AI for being aggressive. In fact, I salute it. :Kaleun_Cheers:

Not sure if that is smart though. It means that all an American has to do is fire a torp into the blue to make every enemy reveal itself.

But if you have played this a lot, then you also know they ping at random, even without firing a shot. They ping all the time. Revealing themselves.

Shadriss also has a good point. So maybe don't ping at all. Really, try and disable it: for me, the gameplay improved (in 1968 atm).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I think they should use active *sometimes* but not sure what the parameters for this should be. Perhaps once they are evading weapons and go fast, then they should start pinging so that they can return fire on you.

I think at least from a gameplay perspective, it is OK as it is. It makes for a nice unpredictable game, which is a lot less exploitable than you always getting to sneak up into the baffles using sonar superiority.

[Skyhigh]

I think at least from a gameplay perspective, it is OK as it is. It makes for a nice unpredictable game, which is a lot less exploitable than you always getting to sneak up into the baffles using sonar superiority.

It is an exploit that the enemy - which was not detected before - suddenly reveals itself by pinging. That is a problem. Pinging is a sin, in a sub.

And you don't always get to sneak up - at closer ranges, which you need for the MK37, the enemy passive is working very well.
You still need to manoever smartly - so much different from the active sonar trigger fest that happens now.

It would be even more fun if the enemy clears its baffles a bit more but other than that it's cool.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

But you don't always get to sneak up - at closer ranges, which you need for the MK37, the enemy passive is working very well.
You still need to manoever smartly - so much different from the active sonar trigger fest that happens now.

In 1968, I tend to manage to keep my numbers below that critical +10 fairly easily until I can get into his baffles.

Personally, my proposal is to degrade the quality of the information provided by the acoustic intercept receiver. The WLR-9's DFing ability is apparently classified, but the MGK-400EM's isn't, and it suggests at higher frequencies the accuracy degrades, fast - possibly because the signal can be shorter and then there's insufficient time to lock on properly to it.

But yes, I agree that it would be nice if they sweep their baffles more often, particularly when running. Even brief looks can often give them the opportunity to detect a sub running up desperately to cream them with those useless Mark 37s.

[Skyhigh]

In 1968, I tend to manage to keep my numbers below that critical +10 fairly easily until I can get into his baffles.



Yet still other subs than the one you are chasing will ping and you know where they are = not fun.

Why on earth should they ping at all? They are subs. Secret service of the deep. Silent but deadly etc.
And don't tell me it was doctrine. Not in 68 for sure. Its just a bit silly.

[Mitchmaker]

Well i must say in the years i spend on a conventional submarine we never used the active sonar once. It simply didn't happen, we the sonaroperators finally joked about the useless active base in our nose sometimes. For my understanding active sonar on a Sub doesn't make sense, well at least in the way the enemy uses it in the game at this moment. Because in nearly every live exercise we had, as soon as a Sub or a ship went active we had a perfect firing solution a few seconds after.
I would say the active sonar should be more effective and accurate but it should less often be used. Thats my opinion.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Yet still other subs than the one you are chasing will ping and you know where they are = not fun.

Why on earth should they ping at all? They are subs. Secret service of the deep. Silent but deadly etc.
And don't tell me it was doctrine. Not in 68 for sure. Its just a bit silly.

Because the enemy is quieter than they are.

To take a point more to your side though, KFG might do well to come up with a passive only AI for when the "Soviet Campaign" goes active. Imagine the screaming when otherwise undetected American submarines give themselves away by active pinging.

[Skyhigh]

Because the enemy is quieter than they are.


Think about this for a second.

My sub is louder than my enemy's.

So let's SCREAM AND SHOUT by pinging, because hey, they could hear us anyway right, and if they hadn't, well they hear us now!

https://ci.memecdn.com/10174632.jpg

[jmr]

Mk48 is too good. .

But isn't that true according to publicly available data or do think it needs some adjusting solely for game play purposes?

[JhonSilver]

But isn't that true according to publicly available data

There should be a mod 4 at 1984.
those. i.e. 40/55 knots on the surface
The maximum run depth is 900 meters - (the engine stalls)
The deeper - the slower.
Given the average depth of run in the game is 400 feet
It's about 38/53 speed knot (not 60).

The maximum depth of launch was limited
due to the huge consumption of compressed air for a shot

Mk48 mod4 -

WeaponObjectReference=usn_mk48
WeaponDescriptiveName=Mark 48 Mod 4
...
MaxLaunchDepth=800
...
RangeInYards=32500
RunSpeed=38
ActiveRunSpeed=53
...
SensorAngles=70,15
SensorRange=2700
WeaponNoiseValues=170,230

and completely missed the problems with homing in the near-surface layer (less 100 ms. deep)

-------------------------------

and for ASW Mk37 -
there must be the hydrostatic self-liquidator for shallow run.
And the Mk37's maximum run depth is 200 meters.

WeaponName=MK37
...
MaxLaunchDepth=450
....
DepthSettings=LEVEL

[The Bandit]

There should be a mod 4 at 1984.
those. i.e. 40/55 knots on the surface
The maximum run depth is 900 meters - (the engine stalls)
The deeper - the slower.
Given the average depth of run in the game is 400 feet
It's about 38/53 speed knot (not 60).

The maximum depth of launch was limited
due to the huge consumption of compressed air for a shot

Mk48 mod4 -

WeaponObjectReference=usn_mk48
WeaponDescriptiveName=Mark 48 Mod 4
...
MaxLaunchDepth=800
...
RangeInYards=32500
RunSpeed=38
ActiveRunSpeed=53
...
SensorAngles=70,15
SensorRange=2700
WeaponNoiseValues=170,230

and completely missed the problems with homing in the near-surface layer (less 100 ms. deep)

-------------------------------

and for ASW Mk37 -
there must be the hydrostatic self-liquidator for shallow run.
And the Mk37's maximum run depth is 200 meters.

WeaponName=MK37
...
MaxLaunchDepth=450
....
DepthSettings=LEVEL

If you're going there though, I believe both the Mod 3 and Mod 4 (at least the Mod 4) had "Telecom" feature of 2 way communication so sensor data from the torpedo was transmitted back to the submarine. This overcame the "blind spot" problem whereby the target was obscured on sonar because you were putting a loud torpedo between it and yourself.

With the way that CW currently models sonar I'm not sure how possible it would be to accommodate this.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Mk48 is too good. I have actually been working on rebalancing the sensors, noise values on US vs Soviet subs and the campaign missions themselves. 68 in particular plays much better once formations are smaller and more dispersed, and you can use the Mk16's a lot more efficiently.

I think they should use active *sometimes* but not sure what the parameters for this should be. Perhaps once they are evading weapons and go fast, then they should start pinging so that they can return fire on you.

On the note of rebalancing noise values, I discussed in another thread the gap between the Skipjack and Permit noise vs the gap between Sturgeon and Los Angeles. Currently there's a huge difference in quieting between the Sturgeon and LA (15 dB, if I remember right) and a small difference between Skipjack and Permit (4 dB) despite the fact that rafting the turbines in the Permit supposedly made a huge difference to radiated noise... Was the anechoic coating and other tech just that much more effective on the LA or was rafting not actually as big of a factor in comparison?

[Raptor_Pilot]

Not sure if that is smart though. It means that all an American has to do is fire a torp into the blue to make every enemy reveal itself.

But if you have played this a lot, then you also know they ping at random, even without firing a shot. They ping all the time. Revealing themselves.

Shadriss also has a good point. So maybe don't ping at all. Really, try and disable it: for me, the gameplay improved (in 1968 atm).

Not all of them. Actually I rather like the idea of seeing multiple different behaviors by the AI.
Some ping all the time, some only ping a few times, some don't ping at all.
Some fire multiple weapons, some will fire one and aggressively steer it, and some will panic and run the moment they detect your launch transients.

I don't consider varied AI behaviors to be a flaw, unless they break the game.

Having enemy subs go active often may seem to make the game easier, but you shouldn't discount something going on under the hood.

Maybe they caught a brief glimpse of you on their sonar and lost contact?
Maybe the specific scenario is set up with the enemy already knowing you're in the area and they're actively searching for you?
Maybe the enemy sub skipper failed that day at "How to Hide" school?

Given the fact the developers are now working to modify and change the AI behavior, I'm willing to wait and see what they come up with, but I won't complain about AI behavior, if the AI is specifically programmed to occasionally make mistakes.

No one wants to fight perfect borg robot AI sub commanders who always react perfectly, with lightning speed, and always successfully target and evade every single time.

[Delgard]

I just went against a surface group along the coast. I do the TMA for each to get to know the formation. It wasn't the easiest, but surprise to me a Foxtrot was there, too. I didn't detect him until the end.

He definitely was not a pinger.

[Skyhigh]

I just went against a surface group along the coast. I do the TMA for each to get to know the formation. It wasn't the easiest, but surprise to me a Foxtrot was there, too. I didn't detect him until the end.

He definitely was not a pinger.

Thats cool. It shouldn't be a pinger...

In th Single Mission Striking the Bear I tried yesterday, the first to ping was the SSBN Typhoon after 10 seconds into the mission...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Thats cool. It shouldn't be a pinger...

In th Single Mission Striking the Bear I tried yesterday, the first to ping was the SSBN Typhoon after 10 seconds into the mission...

Oh, OK, that could be a problem. :hmmm: