Merchants/ Capital ships manouvre like sport cars

[kstanb]

I like the game, and I play mostly 68's campaign, trying to use Mk16 (should be Mk14 by the way, as there was still a lot of inventory left from WWII). So the issue is that ships capital ships/ merchants are always changing speed and course, even when not alerted. this is very unrealistic, as it would be impossible for a crew to be changing speed and course 24h a day during a cruise. Correct behaviour would be zig zaging at relatively long intervals.

Also, ships (again capital ships and merchants are the issue, not so DDs) are way to manouverable, it takes them seconds to do a 180 degree turn, so it is really unrealistically challenging to use Mk16. People end just packing Mk37s only when in real life unguided torpedoes were still very useful (e.g. Belgrano sinking during Falklands)

Any chance there is a MOD that corrects this?

[Onkel Neal]

Oh no, this is during war time. Those ships aren't going to make easy targets for you. If I was captain of a warship in time of war, I would be ordering unpredictable course and speed changes the minute the lines were cast loose.

[kstanb]

So did the Argentinians during Falklands war :03: think of this as a war patrol of many days, even weeks. it is not possible to change heading and speed every minute, specially true for a convoy that need to coordinate with other ships, which is why in real life they resort to zig-zag tactics
do you play 68? do you use Mk16?
how many players are using Mk16 as standard anti ship torpedo in the 68 campaign?
unguided torpedoes were still in use into the early 80s, because they were very good at what they were designed to do; hunt surface ships that are unaware of being attacked, if that how this game works?

Then there is the ship mechanics issue;
how realistic is for an oiler to do a 180 turn in less than 30 seconds?
how realistic is that 5 seconds after a torpedo is launched, all ships in the convoy are turning out?
Normal behaviour was to launch 3 torpedoes, one to the target, one to the left, one to the right... even if he spotted, and start turning, ships, specially capital or merchant ships are not designed for lighting fast maneuvers and will not get out; assuming of course close range and good firing solution

This is a lot more realistic than simply throwing Mk37s to the escorts, then wait for the capital ships to run away, then close, align to the new "running away" heading, and shoot knowing they will not change course again (this while the escort gets fixed and unresponsive looking at you in your last position)

[LeopardDriver]

The OP seems to be right, imho. Some ships seem to be able to turn too quickly and their turn radius is too tight. However, this can be corrected pretty easily. In fact, for myself I changed the parameters for all submarines. While I made the rudders turn time slower in general, I tightened the turn for some subs.

If you want to make me a mod for surface ships, please make a sheet with the actual data. That should contain:

- name of the vessel
- rudder turn time in degrees per second
- max. turn rate in degrees

Looking forward to your suggestions.

[Shadow]

Make subs more sluggish, however, and get ready to die a LOT more to torpedoes. Possibly too much.

Possibly what would happen in real life, considering torpedoes are bound to be far more agile than their comparatively lumbering targets.

[kstanb]

In my admittedly short experience with this game, I think what needs to be tweaked, submarine wise, is the rates of dive and climb.
I found I am pretty much invulnerable to torpedoes as long as I throw a noisemaker and do steep dives (or climbs). At good speed, the torp will certainly miss me, and if I am lucky, it will remain shallow (or deep), while I successfully go the other way around, then I can ignore it

As per ships turn; yes I will definitively change:
rudder turn time in degrees per second
max. turn rate in degrees
Acceleration Rate
Deceleration Rate
weapon mk16: WeaponNoiseValues --> reduce only this one

Problem is to what extent? does anybody has tweeked them? I won't like to overdo it

[Julhelm]

Merchant ships usually turn in a circle having a diameter of about 3–4 times the length between perpendiculars (LBP). The larger the rudder, the smaller will be the Turning circle diameter(TCD). During the TCD manoeuvre, the ship will experience transfer, advance, drift angles and angle of heel (see Figure ).]
This is exactly what the ships ingame are set up to do. I ran some tests today and using the Andizhan and Boris Chilikin, and they both exhibit this kind of turning circle.

No merchants in the game are capable of turning 180' in 30 seconds.

The dive rates are realistic. It is the torpedoes that are artificially nerfed, because we wanted that cinematic aspect of Hunt for the Red October.

[kstanb]

]
This is exactly what the ships ingame are set up to do. I ran some tests today and using the Andizhan and Boris Chilikin, and they both exhibit this kind of turning circle.
No merchants in the game are capable of turning 180' in 30 seconds.


Then how else can this issue be fixed? or I guess my question is, do you play 68's campaign? do you use (successfully) the Mk16?
are there youtube videos showing successful use of mk16 in a "realistic" difficulty against a convoy? and I am not talking down-the-throat shooting or exploiting the "running away" routine, but the ideal surprise attack against an unaware enemy (a Belgrano sinking scenario)

maybe the 30 seconds was an exaggeration, fine. against unguided torpedoes, you just need a few degrees or a quick change in acceleration to throw the solution off. Again even under the doubtful assumption that the ship will not change course spontaneously like it does every minute or so.

EDIT: and regarding dive rates: Ideally I wish there was a mod in which dodging a well aimed torpedo is very difficult, but this combined with a "slower" pace of fighting, meaning that also detecting a submarine and creating good firing solutions become difficult, this while a poor solution is easy to avoid

[Julhelm]

I developed and playtested the 68 campaign, so yes, I have played it and used the Mk16. To successfully use it, you have to fire it at WW2-like ranges, often within 2000 yards, and use spreads. It is the escorts that can detect your torpedoes, and if they do, they will warn all other ships which then take evasive action. There's a pattern to the convoy's movements, and you need to observe them to figure it out. Also some escorts will be performing sprint and drift routines, which is probably what you refer to as erratic maneuvering.

That said, there's a bug in the current version where subs share the datalink and can detect your weapons, then warn the convoy, but this is being fixed, as well as rebalancing the sensors and weapons to improve gameplay.

The ships are indeed more manueverable than they should be, but this is likely because turns no longer induce drag (which they used to). Once we put that back in they'll behave more realistically.

If you visit this site (http://shipsbusiness.com/turning-circle.html), you can clearly see the turning circle remains the same but the turn speed deteriorates as speed is lost during the turn.

[TigerDude]

In wartime, when torps run straight, ships zig like crazy. Yes, it makes getting a solution difficult.

Serpentine, for those who get the joke.

Consider that unguided torpedo attack ranges are really short, like 1-2000 yards. Typically you need to get past the escorts and really close to the targets. And shoot lots of fish. That's why ww2 subs had 10 tubes.

[kstanb]

In wartime, when torps run straight, ships zig like crazy. Yes, it makes getting a solution difficult.

Serpentine, for those who get the joke.

Consider that unguided torpedo attack ranges are really short, like 1-2000 yards. Typically you need to get past the escorts and really close to the targets. And shoot lots of fish. That's why ww2 subs had 10 tubes.

As you mentioned, zig-zag, convoys do zig zags, I agree to that.
They don't change speed and heading every minute

[kstanb]

I developed and playtested the 68 campaign, so yes, I have played it and used the Mk16. To successfully use it, you have to fire it at WW2-like ranges, often within 2000 yards, and use spreads. It is the escorts that can detect your torpedoes, and if they do, they will warn all other ships which then take evasive action. There's a pattern to the convoy's movements, and you need to observe them to figure it out. Also some escorts will be performing sprint and drift routines, which is probably what you refer to as erratic maneuvering.

That said, there's a bug in the current version where subs share the datalink and can detect your weapons, then warn the convoy, but this is being fixed, as well as rebalancing the sensors and weapons to improve gameplay.

The ships are indeed more manueverable than they should be, but this is likely because turns no longer induce drag (which they used to). Once we put that back in they'll behave more realistically.

If you visit this site (http://shipsbusiness.com/turning-circle.html), you can clearly see the turning circle remains the same but the turn speed deteriorates as speed is lost during the turn.

It will be great to see how drag works. Also the rebalancing of sensors, because I can tell you, at the moment I don't see it realistic to finish a campaign, ironman style, unless you go with mainly mk37s.

Also, for datalink warning; escorts alerting all the convoy. You should add some delay in the communication's flow, orders cannot be instant the second a torpedo is spotted

Finally, was it standard practice for convoys to move for days/ week into these kinds of patterns? as far as I know, the standard practice was to zig-zag at specific intervals, and I am not talking about escorts doing their defense sprint and drift routine. Convoys needed to keep their position, it is not easy to choreograph an entire TF moving in formation. With easier to discern TF patterns, it will be more feasible to try to get into 2K range

[Capt Jack Harkness]

In my admittedly short experience with this game, I think what needs to be tweaked, submarine wise, is the rates of dive and climb.

http://www.grandpalosthismind.com/tn_jamessub.jpg
This angle at 30 kts equals a pretty fast rise or dive.

Also, for datalink warning; escorts alerting all the convoy. You should add some delay in the communication's flow, orders cannot be instant the second a torpedo is spotted
Agreed.

[jenrick]

I don't recall where I read it, but in reference to the WW2 liberty ship convoys. It was apparently quite difficult to keep the merchants in some semblance of formation, and that adding in zig-zag's to that created even more issues. I'll see if I can find the book and quote. I would think the small convoys present in CW wouldn't be quiet as bad, but again holding formation and maneuvering is something civilian mariners don't practice. I'd imagine you'd try to keep it to a minimal or regular and easy to follow pattern to avoid having things too messed up.

-Jenrick

[Julhelm]

Also, for datalink warning; escorts alerting all the convoy. You should add some delay in the communication's flow, orders cannot be instant the second a torpedo is spotted
Why? On a submarine or warship, 'Torpedo in the water' or 'Vampire' would take immediate precedence over all other orders. When you have incoming weapons there is no time to lose. Why should this be different for the convoys?

[Skyhigh]

I think he means that some dude on an escort notices a torpedo, he shouts it to the bridge, there some guy grabs a mike and shouts it to the merchants.
The merchant captain hears the message, goes like "what the heck", is momentarily stunned and then shouts an order to the conn man, who is now shaking with fear and chooses the wrong side of "Fight or freeze". The captain takes over the conn and starts evasive manoevers.

So there should be like a 25 second lag between spotting and responding. Is what I think he means.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

But of course, it is OK for your weapons to be launched point and click without any time lag, right? :03:

[Skyhigh]

Of course our submarine crew is an example to our Navy and those of others ;) :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[TigerDude]

I don't recall where I read it, but in reference to the WW2 liberty ship convoys. It was apparently quite difficult to keep the merchants in some semblance of formation, and that adding in zig-zag's to that created even more issues. I'll see if I can find the book and quote. I would think the small convoys present in CW wouldn't be quiet as bad, but again holding formation and maneuvering is something civilian mariners don't practice. I'd imagine you'd try to keep it to a minimal or regular and easy to follow pattern to avoid having things too messed up.

-JenrickLiberty ship convoys were a completely different thing. 50-100 ships.

[Skyhigh]

We seem to be thinking that we are dealing with civilian ships here.

But we are mistaken then. The Boris Chilikin for instance, which you will encounter in a tender interdiction mission, is a replenishment ship operated by the Soviet navy.
Yes the crew voice will say it is classified as merchant, but by no means does this mean that we are dealing with civilian ships.

[kstanb]

This angle at 30 kts equals a pretty fast rise or dive.


Developer already confirmed this:
"The dive rates are realistic. It is the torpedoes that are artificially nerfed, because we wanted that cinematic aspect of Hunt for the Red October. "

it is the torpedoes not capable to follow you what got into fantasy waters realm.
That said, I am not complaining here, as this is a trigger happy game, and clearly it won't be fun if torpedoes were impossible to avoid

But on that same spirit, I will work on tweaking the sensors, and maneuver of the ships/ weapons until I find some setting that makes it less "almost impossible" to play. I mean the realistic setting of this game goes from "too easy" if you play in 1984, to "medium difficulty" in 1968 using Mk37 to way "too difficult" with Mk16 only

[kstanb]

But of course, it is OK for your weapons to be launched point and click without any time lag, right? :03:

No, depending on the type of weapon, there should be some lag. More for missiles, less for torpedoes
2 to 3 seconds maybe?

[kstanb]

We seem to be thinking that we are dealing with civilian ships here.

But we are mistaken then. The Boris Chilikin for instance, which you will encounter in a tender interdiction mission, is a replenishment ship operated by the Soviet navy.
Yes the crew voice will say it is classified as merchant, but by no means does this mean that we are dealing with civilian ships.

The developer already confirmed that drag is not modeled yet, which makes it more agile that it should.
And my example was ARA General Belgrano, a former USN Brooklyn class, I bet it was following a typical zig-zag formation, and not doing the snake pattern seen in the game

[kstanb]

I think he means that some dude on an escort notices a torpedo, he shouts it to the bridge, there some guy grabs a mike and shouts it to the merchants.
The merchant captain hears the message, goes like "what the heck", is momentarily stunned and then shouts an order to the conn man, who is now shaking with fear and chooses the wrong side of "Fight or freeze". The captain takes over the conn and starts evasive manoevers.

So there should be like a 25 second lag between spotting and responding. Is what I think he means.

Yes, 25 seconds seems reasonable

[caine007]

I initially thought Mk16's were useless when I started playing the '68 campaign but after a while I kind of began wishing I could fire those things under 100m because when you get the hang of them they are a LOT more reliable than the 37's.

(They're fast, they always go where you point them, they never come back after you and they always sink anything they hit.)

Get in close and fire a spread, or use them in a stern chase.

[kstanb]

Yes, after getting into much closer I am definitively getting hits. But actually my last Sverdlov took 2 Mk16s to sink, that said, its speed was only 1 knot after the 1st so it was really easy to finish it off

But all those hits were against "running away" ships; because once the enemy decides to retreat, they would go in a straight line/ no longer change heading. So as long as I have the speed advantage, I will eventually get into a good firing solution

A bit regrettably that this straight line behaviour rewards "messy" battles when you already get detected, while it is a lot more difficult to aim in an ambush scenario because of the constant heading changes

[Raptor_Pilot]

Then how else can this issue be fixed? or I guess my question is, do you play 68's campaign? do you use (successfully) the Mk16?

Try not being detected.

I think he means that some dude on an escort notices a torpedo, he shouts it to the bridge, there some guy grabs a mike and shouts it to the merchants.
The merchant captain hears the message, goes like "what the heck", is momentarily stunned and then shouts an order to the conn man, who is now shaking with fear and chooses the wrong side of "Fight or freeze". The captain takes over the conn and starts evasive manoevers.

So there should be like a 25 second lag between spotting and responding. Is what I think he means.

What he means is the moment a weapon is detected, everyone should immediately sh*t their pants, and stand around for a few seconds cleaning themselves up before initiating evasive action.

And my example was ARA General Belgrano, a former USN Brooklyn class, I bet it was following a typical zig-zag formation, and not doing the snake pattern seen in the game

Actually, you yourself already addressed this point:

I am not talking down-the-throat shooting or exploiting the "running away" routine, but the ideal surprise attack against an unaware enemy (a Belgrano sinking scenario)

The Belgrano was taken by surprise. An ideal target for a spread of three Mark VIII dumbfire torpedoes.

Truth is, you're just not thinking correctly. The 1968 campaign requires weapon use very similar to a late WW2 scenario, the only difference is your submarine is nuclear powered, and very fast.
You still need to sneak past the escorts, put yourself into a favorable position, then attack a convoy with a spread of torpedoes from close ranges.

If you've played Silent Hunter, then you should have all the skills you need.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Developer already confirmed this:
"The dive rates are realistic. It is the torpedoes that are artificially nerfed, because we wanted that cinematic aspect of Hunt for the Red October."


Exactly, my post was agreeing with you.

[kstanb]

Try not being detected.

Truth is, you're just not thinking correctly. The 1968 campaign requires weapon use very similar to a late WW2 scenario, the only difference is your submarine is nuclear powered, and very fast.
You still need to sneak past the escorts, put yourself into a favorable position, then attack a convoy with a spread of torpedoes from close ranges.

If you've played Silent Hunter, then you should have all the skills you need.

I have played both SHIII and IV at max realism. I am actually playing SH5 with Wolves of Steel at the moment... I was not aware of it until I came back to Subsim a few days ago for Cold Waters; having a lot of fun with realistic navigation (you need to calculate positions manually, including your own)

With regards to the range and maneuver behaviour, I was actually wrong. And it is correct that at 1.5 to 2K yards, there won't be a lot of chances to escape a spread. Getting back to Gen Belgrano, it was sunk at around 800 yards, but it was attacked under very heavy seas conditions, so the Argentinian Navy didn't have a chance at ASW against a nuclear submarine. So I am not contesting this anymore

Back the pattern of ship convoy movement (I am not talking the screening escorts which naturally will need to do more random movement), it is not realist to change, like Olympic synchronized swimmers, heading and speed every few minutes, when you are in a weeks or month long patrol, not possible. instead you have a zig-zag pattern of movement as it is in Silent Hunter.. just imagine trying to plot manually speed and course SH style..

[Skyhigh]

Back the pattern of ship convoy movement (I am not talking the screening escorts which naturally will need to do more random movement), it is not realist to change, like Olympic synchronized swimmers, heading and speed every few minutes, when you are in a weeks or month long patrol, not possible. instead you have a zig-zag pattern of movement as it is in Silent Hunter.. just imagine trying to plot manually speed and course SH style..

You compare too much with SH.
In ColdWaters there are no convoys. There isnt an HX225 from Halifax to Liverpool. There is an invasion force from Murmansk to Bergen. Or replenishing ships to the Greenland Sea. These will be "merchants" operated by the Russian Navy and thus professional soldiers. The Boris Chiliken is classified as a "merchant" but was always a Navy vessel. And that invasion force is out there for a few days, not a patrol that lasts weeks or months.
Its not WW2 and not Silent Hunter.