Catching up to the enemy

[PurpleCow]

I am playing Cold Waters (no mods installed) and find I have trouble completing the 3rd single mission taking on a surface group. The most modern sub I can command is the Sturgeon class. I find that I can never keep up with the surface group or get within torpedo range. The surface group is just running too fast.

If there is any sort of thermal layer I dive below it and run at 20 knots but as I get closer the surface group detects me. If I drop to 10 knots or less they outrun me.

The Mk 16 torpedo (no wire guidance) can only be launched at under 100 ft depth so I must come near the surface to attack and once I do attack the torpedos are fire and forget with no wires to help guide them.

Any suggestions on how to close into the surface group without giving myself away and having them outrun me?

How did subs of the time (early 1970's keep up with Soviet surface groups?

Thanks all. I love this game!

[PL_Harpoon]

I haven't played much wit the '68 subs yet but my guess would be to find out their heading/speed then go deep (preferably under the layer if there is one) and then accelerate (all you have to do is to stay below cavitation depth).

Now, that will deal with catching up. How to avoid their active sonar is a different issue.

[FPSchazly]

If the group has passed you by, the battle is all but lost unfortunately. This is called losing the tactical advantage. It's really quite difficult if not impossible to catch up to the group to fire at them at this point. Also, the Sturgeon is the slowest US boat, so Skipjack and Permit could hypothetically have a better chance at catching up, but the issue with catching up is that you make so much noise that someone is going to hear you. The key to attacking a surface group is to make sure you're nearly directly in front of them, or far enough away that you can maneuver laterally to get into position in front of them without them hearing you.

[Shadow]

It's quite a pain even on a Skipjack, given once they start fleeing, the ships never slow down again. Convoy attacks are rather frustrating in the 1968 campaign because of this: with a body of merchants and some escorts on the flanks, it's usually very difficult, if not impossible, to conduct a damaging enough first strike.

I haven't done many of those missions (invasion force interceptions) in those conditions, but so far I tend to tangle with the escorts first and then, once it's safe, I speed after the merchants. It's unfortunately rather boring, considering how they slowly spread out. Eventually you end up with targets 30+ KY apart and you still have to get very close to land a good hit. After taking down two or three vessels, the other ones become too laborious to find unless you're willing to travel at 50 ft, frequently popping the radar, and time-compressing for a long while. You can usually kill enough to accomplish the mission, but it's not really fun, in any case.

[ollie1983]

Get down really deep and run at flank speed.

Ideally get into a position where they are coming at you. If they scatter you won't have long, you just have to hit them with harpoons at longer range.

It is not much easier even in faster subs TBH.

[PurpleCow]

onger range.
It is not much easier even in faster subs TBH.

I wish I could but the Skipjack sub does not have any options for sub-launched missiles only torpedoes. Which I thought was strange, didn't 1971 era subs have sub launched missiles? I could be wrong though.

[PurpleCow]

Get down really deep and run at flank speed.

If I am running at flank speed, deep enough where I am not cavitating, would Soviet sonar be able to pick me up?

[PurpleCow]

It's quite a pain even on a Skipjack, given once they start fleeing, the ships never slow down again. Convoy attacks are rather frustrating in the 1968 campaign because of this: with a body of merchants and some escorts on the flanks, it's usually very difficult, if not impossible, to conduct a damaging enough first strike.

I haven't done many of those missions (invasion force interceptions) in those conditions, but so far I tend to tangle with the escorts first and then, once it's safe, I speed after the merchants. It's unfortunately rather boring, considering how they slowly spread out. Eventually you end up with targets 30+ KY apart and you still have to get very close to land a good hit. After taking down two or three vessels, the other ones become too laborious to find unless you're willing to travel at 50 ft, frequently popping the radar, and time-compressing for a long while. You can usually kill enough to accomplish the mission, but it's not really fun, in any case.

I am in the middle of a game right now where I have managed to take out all escorts and I am chasing down freighter. The problem is my top speed is 15 knots at flank speed as my sub is damaged (hull at 34%). The freighter has maxed out at 14 knots while I am managing 15 knots. Not sure what range I need to close before torps become useful.

[Shadow]

I am in the middle of a game right now where I have managed to take out all escorts and I am chasing down freighter. The problem is my top speed is 15 knots at flank speed as my sub is damaged (hull at 34%). The freighter has maxed out at 14 knots while I am managing 15 knots. Not sure what range I need to close before torps become useful.
You'd have to get within 4-5 KY for an Mk 37 shot. Otherwise, getting within 2 KY straight from behind and fire an Mk 16 its way.

Question is, how far are you from the merchants to begin with? Overtaking a vessel doing 14 knots at 15 would take ages.

[PurpleCow]

Question is, how far are you from the merchants to begin with? Overtaking a vessel doing 14 knots at 15 would take ages.

Thanks for the tip! I started off about 19 KY away. So I set myself to flank speed on the surface (ballast tanks damaged) at 15 knots. Then I hit time acceleration. Your right, it took a long time but I finally caught up to the freighter and killed him with a Mk16 fish. Funny, his escort abandoned him. I was running on the surface with radar while cavitating.

[caine007]

My best luck with military convoys in the 68 campaign has been long stern chases unfortunately. Unless there's a storm and the background noise is high it's unlikely you'll be able to just drift in from the front without being detected.

If you can come in from the rear quarter you can get into their baffles and run deep at flank speed. Which should let you catch up if they're just cruising. Mk 16's are surprisingly effective for stern shots.

If they've got the hammer down then your only option is a front or side dash probably. Get as close as you can then go nuts, fire a few mk37's to spook charging escorts, get to 100 ft, max the throttle, cavitate, reload, fire a full spread of mk16s and then cross your fingers.

[jenrick]

The MK16 has a decent range and good speed. Fire a spread just like you would in SH4. Don't be stingy with the MK16's, a tight spread of 3 per major target, or fire off all your tubes into the middle of the pack. A thing about a pure stern chase, is that they won't turn away, they'll simply keep running.

-Jenrick

[caine007]

The MK16 has a decent range and good speed. Fire a spread just like you would in SH4. Don't be stingy with the MK16's, a tight spread of 3 per major target, or fire off all your tubes into the middle of the pack. A thing about a pure stern chase, is that they won't turn away, they'll simply keep running.

-Jenrick

I find with stern chases you only need one if they're not dodging and you're right on their tail. Anything running away from you won't be able to hear it so just shoot it straight up their clacker.

It's also got a massive warhead so it sinks just about anything in one hit. I'm surprised we can't set them to pattern run though. I thought they had that capability.

[Delgard]

I just did an "end-around" on a Moskva, but I was not sure how far out to go until I turned parallel. I have not figured out the scaling on the TacMap.

[jenrick]

It's also got a massive warhead so it sinks just about anything in one hit. I'm surprised we can't set them to pattern run though. I thought they had that capability.

It's a very easy mod to add. I've found a couple of sources that indicate it would circle after a given run out, but not a definitive source. I'm still looking though.

-Jenrick

[Shadow]

It's a very easy mod to add. I've found a couple of sources that indicate it would circle after a given run out, but not a definitive source. I'm still looking though.

-Jenrick
If I did my math correctly, the turn rate for the torpedo in this pattern would be 5, if the weapon's stat is measured in degrees per second.

Also, I've read the following here (https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Navy-Submarine-Torpedo-Handbook/dp/1935700464):

A redesign of the U.S. Navy's successful Mark 14 torpedo, the Mark 16 was developed during WWII but not available until early 1945 and never saw combat. The Mark 16's design incorporated the best aspects of the Mark 14, and some features of German torpedoes. During twenty years of the Cold War, the Mark 16 served as the Silent Service's standard anti-ship weapon. The Mark 16 was powered by a Navol hydrogen-peroxide and alcohol engine. The warhead carried 732 pounds of HBX-3 Torpex explosive, making it the most powerful non-nuclear torpedo in the U.S. arsenal. Launched from a depth between 10 and 200 feet, the torpedo had a running depth between 10 and 50 feet. It weighed 3782 pounds in war-shot configuration, and was 246 inches in length and 21 inches in diameter. This handbook was created to train torpedomen about the use, maintenance, and handling of the Mark 16. It provides anunprecedented look at the most deadly conventional weapon in the submarine's arsenal. Originally confidential, this handbook is now considered obsolete, and no longer classified.

[Shadriss]

Time to mod the Mk16's launch parameters... nice find, Shadow.

[ollie1983]

If I am running at flank speed, deep enough where I am not cavitating, would Soviet sonar be able to pick me up?

Unlikely. The surface ships are loud as heck and if they are moving fast they won't hear toffee.

The problems start when the Escorts separate from whatever they are escorting.

[Shadow]

Unlikely. The surface ships are loud as heck and if they are moving fast they won't hear toffee.

The problems start when the Escorts separate from whatever they are escorting.

Dangerous. They won't hear much if they're moving fast, but neither will you in similar conditions, and you won't be able to tell when they've slowed down and might pick you up. You lose contacts unless they were really loud, and with it the awareness of their sensor effectiveness vs. your boat.

Moving fast underwater is rather loud if enemy vessels are in position to hear you. Less than cavitating, which spikes your detectability, but still. It's quite situational.

[caine007]

Unlikely. The surface ships are loud as heck and if they are moving fast they won't hear toffee.

The problems start when the Escorts separate from whatever they are escorting.

Escorts are nowhere near as big an issue in '68 as they are in '84 (or in something like SH for that matter)

They usually only have those rocket depth bombs which aren't a huge problem - especially if you're deep and at flank speed. Plus you can just shoot an active Mk 37 in their direction and that's them taken care of for 20 minutes. If you can keep it on a wire you can even ping pong one between two.

I usually manage to sneak in to sink one target with Mk 16's, then I distract the escorts and charge after the remainders. Works great with tankers and landing ships and even ok with Sverdlov's who seem to throttle back to 26 knots if they think they're safe which is fine in a Permit or Skipjack.