Evading torpedoes in this game makes me wonder about RL

[caine007]

I quite like the torpedo evasion mechanics in this game. Yes the sub agility and knuckles are total BS, as are the way the torpedoes helpfully turn away when they lose lock but as a game, it feels pretty good. I still get hit by torpedoes and usually it's because I screwed up somehow which makes for good gameplay.

But man does it freak the crap out of me for how it would work in real life.

Any ex (or current!) submariners on here? Did you ever feel that if things went hot you were basically screwed? I know that stealth would be a FAR greater factor than it's modelled here but it feels like if it ever got to the stage where someone is able to launch a weapon at you... your chances weren't great. :o

[Delgard]

Angles and dangles. I think a lot of the submarine budget goes to stealthiness.

I had read on the internet, and EVERYTHING on the internet is true of course, that there is an ability to shut down among large schools of fish to mask sound. In CW, if I sink a ship/sub and it is creaking away on the bottom I go to it in hopes of masking my presence in its noise. I sit 30ft above it hoping that it masks me. I wonder if that is modelled in CW. I still do it, though.

If anyone knows about the modelling in this case, an intel report would be appreciated.

[Wiz33]

I quite like the torpedo evasion mechanics in this game. Yes the sub agility and knuckles are total BS, as are the way the torpedoes helpfully turn away when they lose lock but as a game, it feels pretty good. I still get hit by torpedoes and usually it's because I screwed up somehow which makes for good gameplay.

But man does it freak the crap out of me for how it would work in real life.

Any ex (or current!) submariners on here? Did you ever feel that if things went hot you were basically screwed? I know that stealth would be a FAR greater factor than it's modelled here but it feels like if it ever got to the stage where someone is able to launch a weapon at you... your chances weren't great. :o

Go watch Jive Turkey's Youtube channel. He was a sonar tech on 688 and used to train new crew on new boats.

[jenrick]

Doing some reading on the Skipjack, apparently most said the closest analog to how it handled was flying an aircraft. Just something to think about.

-Jenrick

[ollie1983]

I spoke to former serving Sub officer back at a wedding a while back, he turned up in proper uniform including the sword etc.

Anyways, I spent the entire afternoon talking to him. They spent a lot of their time in Soviet waters, basically spying. Certainly through his duration in the navy he said they were not particularly concerned about their torpedoes because they knew about their performance from observing soviet exercise.

The one thing they were gravely concerned about was the Soviet use of these RBU rockets. The Soviets would regularly fire these at anything they caught a sniff off, even in peacetime and it was never pleasant. Soviet surface vessels knew NATO subs would often spy on them and so it was common for them to park a surface ship up drifting on the edge of any exercise, knowing it would be virtually invisible and then use it to fire rockets at anything that came close enough. If you got hit, of course the Soviets would have said a foreign vessel in their waters was there on a hostile spying mission and had 'strayed into a live fire exercise by accident' etc etc etc.

One of the other very risky things they used to do was trail other NATO boats very closely and then report to high command that they had managed it. The message would then be passed to the other country. The main risk from this was basically running into the opposing friendly sub. I don't doubt for a second this still goes on. I think a British Sub scraped a Frenchie not long ago playing games. Of course, around the North Sea and English channel the water isn't all that deep so detecting each other a bit more straight-forward than in the open ocean.

[caine007]

Angles and dangles. I think a lot of the submarine budget goes to stealthiness.

I had read on the internet, and EVERYTHING on the internet is true of course, that there is an ability to shut down among large schools of fish to mask sound. In CW, if I sink a ship/sub and it is creaking away on the bottom I go to it in hopes of masking my presence in its noise. I sit 30ft above it hoping that it masks me. I wonder if that is modelled in CW. I still do it, though.

If anyone knows about the modelling in this case, an intel report would be appreciated.

Sinking ships and wrecks definitely attract torpedoes. I've dodged a few by passing near them.

The one thing they were gravely concerned about was the Soviet use of these RBU rockets. The Soviets would regularly fire these at anything they caught a sniff off, even in peacetime and it was never pleasant. Soviet surface vessels knew NATO subs would often spy on them and so it was common for them to park a surface ship up drifting on the edge of any exercise, knowing it would be virtually invisible and then use it to fire rockets at anything that came close enough. If you got hit, of course the Soviets would have said a foreign vessel in their waters was there on a hostile spying mission and had 'strayed into a live fire exercise by accident' etc etc etc.

That's nuts.

[Tinman764]

One of the other very risky things they used to do was trail other NATO boats very closely and then report to high command that they had managed it. The message would then be passed to the other country. The main risk from this was basically running into the opposing friendly sub. I don't doubt for a second this still goes on. I think a British Sub scraped a Frenchie not long ago playing games. Of course, around the North Sea and English channel the water isn't all that deep so detecting each other a bit more straight-forward than in the open ocean.

My dad's sub hit a Russian sub in the 80's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sceptre_(S104)

[Steiger]

Angles and dangles.

Haha this guy's gotta be a fellow hockey player. Sometimes after a nice evasion on a torp I'll catch myself saying "dirty ****ing dangles, boys."

[The Bandit]

Haha this guy's gotta be a fellow hockey player. Sometimes after a nice evasion on a torp I'll catch myself saying "dirty ****ing dangles, boys."

"Its a hard life picking stones and pulling teats, but sure as God's got sandals it beats fighting dudes with treasure trails."

[Steiger]

"Its a hard life picking stones and pulling teats, but sure as God's got sandals it beats fighting dudes with treasure trails."

Clappies from the hashies buddy!

[caine007]

My dad's sub hit a Russian sub in the 80's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sceptre_(S104)

Sounds like a brown trouser moment right there. So many submarine incidents seem to be narrowly avoiding catastrophe by the hairiest margins.

[Shadriss]

Torpedo evasion is... kind of an unknown. The sub crews train for it, of course, but that training is based on assessments of what the opposing weapons can do, and not from any real experience. By which I mean that the only way to know for certain if the tactics work is to get shot at... which I, speaking for myself and what I assume to be most of the sub fleet, would just as soon NOT do.

[Shadow]

Torpedo evasion is... kind of an unknown. The sub crews train for it, of course, but that training is based on assessments of what the opposing weapons can do, and not from any real experience. By which I mean that the only way to know for certain if the tactics work is to get shot at... which I, speaking for myself and what I assume to be most of the sub fleet, would just as soon NOT do.
Couldn't drills be done with warhead-less torpedoes? For all intents and purposes they'd be like live ones for evasion purposes. Only they wouldn't explode if they hit.

Seems too much of an obvious avenue to not have been considered. What's wrong with it?

[The Bandit]

Couldn't drills be done with warhead-less torpedoes? For all intents and purposes they'd be like live ones for evasion purposes. Only they wouldn't explode if they hit.

Seems too much of an obvious avenue to not have been considered. What's wrong with it?

There was a GUPPY boat which was used for just that. It had to be specially plated for them to bounce Mk 37s off it. Still, I would guess that wouldn't be looked on so kindly today for all the things that could go wrong. Even without a warhead, you have something like that clang off of your screw, probably enough to bend some blades or even the propeller shaft, boat out of service and millions in unexpected yard-work.

My guess is that they probably have computer simulations of all that that would knock you socks off, but yeah the applied aspect of it just isn't there.

[jenrick]

Also having a torpedo running around isn't the same as having an enemy torpedo running around. We can development the best torpedo evasion protocol in the world for our own torpedoes, but it'd be a guess on how they'd work against the other sides.

-Jenrick

[PL_Harpoon]

Well, a torpedo weights about 1,6 tons. If you put this number into this: http://calculator.tutorvista.com/impact-force-calculator.html

that would result in something like the enrgy of 1.5kg of TNT.
To put that in perspective here's a video of 2kg of TNT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pej7xZgsNJI

Sure, it wouldn't sink the boat, but it might damage the hull, destroy the screws/towed array/planes etc.

[caine007]

I'm surprised they haven't made a kickass drone "torpedo" with a nice squishy head (or an awesome braking system) to train crews with. Save weight by leaving out the warhead and guidance system and make it entirely manually controlled. Match it to projected enemy capabilities and then ramp it up to superhuman levels.

Then again I guess if the sim is awesome, maybe it's just safer.

[caine007]

There was a GUPPY boat which was used for just that. It had to be specially plated for them to bounce Mk 37s off it. Still, I would guess that wouldn't be looked on so kindly today for all the things that could go wrong. Even without a warhead, you have something like that clang off of your screw, probably enough to bend some blades or even the propeller shaft, boat out of service and millions in unexpected yard-work.

My guess is that they probably have computer simulations of all that that would knock you socks off, but yeah the applied aspect of it just isn't there.

Reminds me of Operation Pinball (http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/just-shoot-me-57581298/).

[Delgard]

Maybe a soft, squishy paintball warhead. But, they could be embarrassing arriving back in port.

[PL_Harpoon]

Save weight by leaving out the warhead and guidance system and make it entirely manually controlled. Match it to projected enemy capabilities and then ramp it up to superhuman levels.
.

I'm pretty sure warhead and guidance aren't the heaviest parts of a torpedo (in Mk-48 warhead is about 17% of total mass). Even then there's also issue of balance. And if you were to develop a new torpedo just for training purposes then there's the issue of cost.

Still, what's the point of doing all that if a decent software with all the available data can simulate the whole thing just as much.
The big problem is that you don't know how the ENEMY torpedoes will behave.
You can be an expert at avoiding Mk48s but how is that going to help if the enemy torps will behave differently.

For ex. when I was working on torpedoes for my mod I increased the range of some Russian torpedoes. As a result the tactic of changing depth and gainign as much distance as possible stopped working because the torpedo would reacquire you before you can get out of its range.

[Destex]

Since torpedoes are more maneuverable than subs I don't suppose steep CW styled turns will save you. They can help but only marginally. If you were detected and shot at, hope your countermeasures and the intelligence they were based on, will work :)

[ollie1983]

They spy on exercises principally to see how platforms, sensors and weapons perform. Been done for decades.

A lot of technology is also for sale, it isn't too hard to work out its capabilities just by looking at blueprints.

[PL_Harpoon]

They spy on exercises principally to see how platforms, sensors and weapons perform. Been done for decades.

A lot of technology is also for sale, it isn't too hard to work out its capabilities just by looking at blueprints.

Yes, but I think these days it's the software that's the important part. A different behaviour can ruin your entire evasion plan.

Spying on exercises wouldn't help much unless the enemy is firing actual live torpedoes at each other.

You can try to figure out their torpedo behaviour by watching their evasion manoeuvres but the might as well adjust them to what they think your torps would do.

Even export weapons aren't perfect because I don't think their guidance system is on par with the base models.

IMHO the only way to prepare an evasion tactic is to either see an enemy torpedo in action (against a target that's actually doing it's best to evade it) or get a hold of one.
Otherwise the best you can do is to account for the most probable situations and modify your movements on the fly.

[Shadriss]

IMHO the only way to prepare an evasion tactic is to either see an enemy torpedo in action (against a target that's actually doing it's best to evade it) or get a hold of one.
Otherwise the best you can do is to account for the most probable situations and modify your movements on the fly.

This is essentially what I was pointing out. We can plan for, project, and estimate to our hearts content... until we get shot at, there's simply no way to know, and at that point there are only two options.

A) We live to tell everyone at home it works.
B) We go on Eternal Patrol.

[A-Ganger]

Another 20 yr retired submariner here..
That's a good question, and while I was not a Sonar Tech, Fire Control or an Officer, yea there are many things a sub can/does do!

I was a Chief of the Watch (which is in control of almost the entire Sub unerway) and let me tell you that was the coolest thing I ever did.. Was working on becoming a Diving Officer but well..I retired lol

Now obviously I cannot say yes a fictional #1 is true or #3 is false because even being retired, there are things I cannot say ;)

Sub crews do spend a lot of time practicing evasion tactics, and more specifically I mean the ships control party (OOD, helmsman/planesman, COW, DOOW) Sonar and Quartermaster as well.

Playing DW right now and man this stuff brings back memories!